1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: I think that healing comes when the song stops playing 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 2: in your head, when the memories come, and they do 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: come because of shared events, and it flashes you back 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: to that moment because it was so traumatic. But when 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: that happens, the energy has sucked out or drained out 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 2: of you. There. It doesn't take you away to someplace else, 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: even for a moment, but it's like, yeah, that happened 9 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: to me. It's warble and I'm okay. 10 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: Now. Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we 11 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: share powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear big and small. 12 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm Carol McCracken. One of the fears that many of 13 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: us carr is the fear that our past will permanently 14 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: define our future. Maybe it's betrayal, a divorce, of failure, 15 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: a season where life completely unraveled, and we wonder, will 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: I ever get past this? I ever trust again? Will 17 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: I always carry this hurts? Joining me today as my 18 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: pastor Jim Kinder. Many people know Jim for his authentic 19 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: preaching and his ability to speak honestly about difficult seasons 20 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: of life. He's walked through betrayal, loss, counseling, restoration, and 21 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: ultimately a healthy marriage and a thriving family life. Today, 22 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: we're going to talk to him about healing identity and 23 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: why what's temporary should never be allowed to affect what 24 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: is eternal and welcome to Faith over fear. 25 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: Hey, Carol, thank you for this opportunity. This is incredible. 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: I'm pleased to be part of your podcast. 27 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I am really looking forward to this 28 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: conversation because I think it's really going to affect a 29 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: lot of people. And most people know you as a 30 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: pastor today, at least in my world, But there was 31 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: a season where life looked really different for you. Can 32 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: you tell us a little about that chapter. 33 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: San It's been a long time ago now, but it 34 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 2: really happened all of a sudden wake up one morning, 35 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 2: and let's put it short, I found out that my 36 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: wife at the time did not want to be my 37 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: wife and wanted to be with someone else, and so 38 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: that sent my world crashing and it was a horrible 39 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: ordeal for months trying to figure out what we were 40 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: going to do, how could we do it, what needs 41 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: to happen, And ultimately about fourteen fifteen months later, we 42 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: ended up divorcing m. 43 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: Gosh Well, when everything fell apart. What was the hardest 44 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: part for you emotionally? 45 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: Oh, it was first just to shock of it, because 46 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: it really was out of the blue. It was the 47 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 2: furthest thing from my mind. But the second thing is 48 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: it just I'm a pastor, teach just people about how 49 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: to have good marriages. I'm the guy that says, hey, 50 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: do you take this woman to be your wife? And 51 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: do you take this guy to be your husband? Forever? 52 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, my forever was over. And 53 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: it was just like, you feel like you're losing everything. 54 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: You're losing your your sense of identity, who you are. 55 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: I felt that I should. 56 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: So you didn't feel any signs or anything like that 57 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: leading up to it. It truly was a shock for you. 58 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: I mean, looking back, you can say that yeah, but 59 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: at the time absolutely none. 60 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: That's what it really gets sometimes and when your guard 61 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: isn't even up, you're vulnerable, all right. So we always 62 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: talk about lies and truths on the show. What lies 63 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: were you tempted to believe about yourself during that time? 64 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 2: Oh? Many? But you're worthless, that you're useless. And I 65 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: would vacillate sometimes that you were righteous. Why didn't you 66 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: you know? And that I've got all all this together 67 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: and it's not blah blah blah blah. And that's not 68 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: true either, but ultimately that your world is over, that 69 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: I was going to lose everything and my value and 70 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: worth was I mean, who would listen to me anymore? 71 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: Why would you listen to me? I didn't even want 72 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: to listen to me. And so all those lies that 73 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: the enemy begins to tell you that you're not worthy 74 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: of love, you can't keep your family together, You're going 75 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: to lose it all. You should lose it all because 76 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: you could keep it together, becomes flooding into your mind. 77 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: You said something at the beginning of the podcast, But 78 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: did you ever find yourself questioning your identity? 79 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I mean who am I? If my spouse 80 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: doesn't love me, how can God love me? And then 81 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: how can my kids love me? A I'm going to 82 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: lose them? Then it just snowballs. 83 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: You told me on occasion, which I've really taken to heart. 84 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: I really like this sentence. You said, why allow anything 85 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: temporary to affect what is eternal? Where did that perspective 86 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: come from? 87 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: Well? Here recently that phrasing came, But it was the 88 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: idea of who who God says that I am and 89 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: being honest about that, and who I am to him. 90 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: There was a big moment, but I don't want to 91 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: don't want to put it all on that moment because 92 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: there were so many other pieces to it. But I'm 93 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: a runner, and when I was out running in the rain, 94 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: I was just crying, belly aching to God, God, I 95 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: don't know why I'm here, What do you have left 96 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 2: for me? I've messed up. I'm a fraud, I'm a hypocrite. 97 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: And I sensed God. I never heard him, but I 98 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: sensed him. I heard God say two things to me. 99 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: The first was Jim I know, which wasn't real comforting. 100 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: He's like, why don't know how you feel? I was 101 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: waiting for him to say, no, you're wrong, you're wrong 102 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: your own and never heard. But after I heard him 103 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: say Jim, I know, I heard him say, and I 104 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 2: still love you. I still love you. And it has 105 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: wrapped me because all the trappings that you put up 106 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: there to identify yourself, to say this is who I am, 107 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: because I've gett this award, because I got this position, 108 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: because I look this way on the outside, all of 109 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: that just gets stripped away because God sees exactly who 110 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 2: you were, and the reality is he knew me before 111 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 2: he put me in my mother's womb. And I don't 112 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: know how all that works, but that's what the scripture 113 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: reminds us of God's intimacy, how much he loves us. 114 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 2: And so if my heavenly father defines me as being 115 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: valuable and worthy of love, why let anything temporary change that? 116 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: All these things are temporary statuses that, hey, you got 117 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: money today, you're not going to have it tomorrow or 118 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: the day you die, you won't have it because somebody 119 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: else is going to get it. I mean, it just 120 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: doesn't matter. So it kind of built up through it 121 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: and started at that moment, but it was actually years 122 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: later that the phrasing really came. Why would you let 123 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 2: something temporary define that which is eternal? And that's the 124 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: whole other issue. But when we start talking about identity, 125 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: who am I, Well, we always look inside to declare 126 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: who we are, and that's never the way we do things. 127 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: It's always from an outside perspective, a greater telling us 128 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 2: who we are. God says, I will tell you who 129 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 2: you are. I made you, I created you. So it 130 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: took a while for that to really sink in and 131 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: again it was a beautiful moment. There was still a 132 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: lot of healing after that, but there was a lot 133 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: of things that had to take place to get me 134 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: to that moment. 135 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: He got your attention. 136 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: It sounds like, oh my, yes, it was life changing. 137 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: You said you had more work to do to get 138 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: where you are. How did that help you survive one 139 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: of the hardest seasons of your life. 140 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 2: Well, so part of that was focusing on what's true. 141 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 2: And thankfully I had a small group of men that 142 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: I've been meeting with for three to four years a priority. 143 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: I didn't have to build a relationship. They knew me 144 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: and they were there for me, and they would always 145 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: point me back to truth, and they would say, Jim, 146 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 2: what is true? What is true? And I remember clearly 147 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: one day I called my buddy up. She said, over 148 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: the horrible dad, blah blah blah blah, I'm just whining 149 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: and belly And he goes, now, Jim, is that true? 150 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: Were you a horrible dad? I said no, I said, 151 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: I'm the best dad in the world. And I flipped 152 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: that quot and he said the exact same thing. He said, well, now, Jim, 153 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: is that true? 154 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: He was right. 155 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: I wasn't the worst. I wasn't the best. Unless we 156 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: deal with truth, we can't find healing. Satan is the 157 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: father of lies, right, and so we have to find 158 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: what is really true, not what we want to be true, 159 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: not what the enemy says is true, but what is true. 160 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: And so that's been the foundation to try to work 161 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: my way through it. And when all the anger and 162 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: all the stuff comes bubbling up, it would have to 163 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: go back to, well, let's stop and say what is 164 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: true here? 165 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: I'm hearing the community was really important for you during 166 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: that season? 167 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, it's important for all of us in 168 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: any season. But it was literally life setting. My friends 169 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: kept me from being absolutely stupid and doing stupid stuff 170 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: like no, you're not, I'm coming over there right now 171 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: because I wanted to go and be the man I 172 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: want to go shut And that was just boofy. I mean, 173 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: that's just it was very real and I get it. 174 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: But what good would any of that do now I'm 175 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: looking at that years later. But I needed men in 176 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: my life to be there with me and walk with 177 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: me in that, and they were there from the first 178 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: day when I got I just showed it at my 179 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: mother in my house and he said, I don't know 180 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: why I'm here, but I had to be here. And 181 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: he did the best thing he could do. I just 182 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: vomited on him. What happened? Yeah, and he just sat 183 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: in the reclining. It's all he did. Ever said it work, 184 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: but he was just there. 185 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: Well, it got that stuff out of your head. It 186 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: sounds like because I've often heard and experienced it myself. 187 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: Isolation is dangerous when you're hurting. 188 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And it goes back to because you have 189 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: nobody to challenge the lines. 190 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it, and you're not thinking straight plaining something 191 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: when emotion is clouding your head. And I've been there, 192 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: what seems like it would feel really good and the 193 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: short term is so damaging in the end. Help anything 194 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: to be a slink to the emotion. Yeah, you've shared 195 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: before that your small group kept you from making some 196 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: bad decisions. Tell me what that looks like practically for 197 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: somebody that doesn't happen. 198 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: Sure, well, and that's that's part of the struggle. No, 199 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: It's amazing how after you've experienced a traumatic experience or 200 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: loss that other people now feel comfortable sharing with you. 201 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: And I've had numerous men especially come to me and 202 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: say similar events have happened in their life, and they 203 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: asked me what do I do? And my first question 204 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: to them is, who is another man in your life 205 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: that has walked with you that you're on the same 206 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: spiritual kind of wavelength. You both are chasing after Christ 207 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: and trying to be a disciple of his. And they 208 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: know you. They know your ups or downs, your good, 209 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: your bads, they know your triggers and where you struggle. 210 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 2: Time after time they look at me and they get 211 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: this dumb viound look on their face and then they 212 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 2: point at me and they go, well, I guess you 213 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: and I'm sitting here, you're in trouble. Could you just 214 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: lie because I don't know you that well? And they 215 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: are You're just in trouble because now you've got to 216 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: go back and build relationstionship with people. It's possible, but 217 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 2: you got to build that relationship with them. That's why 218 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: God called us into community together so we can lean 219 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 2: on each other and trust each other in these times. 220 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 2: So for me, that was one of the keys to 221 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 2: me being able to find victory through this. My small 222 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: group on Sunday we were in a big gym and 223 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: it was a stage in the gym. They were behind 224 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 2: the curtain and two of them would pray while I 225 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: was preaching every single months months. I didn't ask, They 226 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: just did that. 227 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: Wow. 228 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: So just providing that kind of support and encouragement and 229 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: keeping me focused on what's true. A couple of times 230 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: it was like, nope, we're going to go do this. 231 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 2: Come on, let's go. Even financially because when everything broke apart, 232 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: there was some financial loss, sure, and they were there. 233 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: And again I didn't need to ask because they knew me. 234 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: I talked to at least two of them every for months. 235 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: How does this happen? Because I'm just going to put 236 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: it out there. Women are known for that, men are 237 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: not known for that. What did you do to get 238 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: started in something so life affirming like that? 239 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: It was a small group that we started in church 240 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: and we met in the morning, we had coffee and 241 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: did a book study. Then we did another book study 242 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: study scriptures, and we just kind of rotated through what 243 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: we were studying. And that group morphed for about two 244 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: and a half years and it kind of settled into 245 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: about four or five people. Okay, that was it, and 246 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: then we became brothers it wasn't a small group. I mean, 247 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: if somebody else wanted to come, they could, but it 248 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 2: really never fit. Yeah, because we had grown so tight. 249 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: And then one other guy that I went to seminary 250 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 2: with that we're very close and I would talk with 251 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: him every day. It almost feels bad saying this, but 252 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: looking back, it was probably the strongest thing I could do, 253 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: but it surely felt horrible. I just I had to 254 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: wait to the white flag. I was like, guys, I'm hurting, 255 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. I'm angry, I'm mad, 256 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: I need to yell at somebody. So you're it. And 257 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: they allowed me to be gym, not pastor. 258 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: I was just gim and so precious that would be. 259 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: It really was wow. And a number of them were 260 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: in the church that our pastored, so I was their pastor, 261 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: but in those moments, I was their friend. 262 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: And I've learned this. I didn't always believe it, but 263 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: through life experience, I think surrendering is stronger than not surrendering. 264 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: I know it's hard to say, but that took a lot, 265 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: didn't it. 266 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 2: Oh Yeah, it's hard when we declare that this is 267 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 2: bigger than me. I need help. I can't get through this. 268 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: I can't faith this away. 269 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: Speak more about that. 270 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we think that if I just had 271 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: enough faith, this would have never happened. Right, Might have 272 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: just been a better Christian? This wouldn't have happened, right, 273 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 2: None of that's true. Could I have been a better Christian? Absolutely? 274 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: Could I have more faith? Yeah? I mean Jesus said 275 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: he has a faith with the grain of a mustard 276 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: see to me saying, Look, you either have faith or 277 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 2: you don't have faith. And faith is not this magic 278 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: wand that makes everything better. Faith is a relationship, And 279 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 2: ultimately faith goes back to the identity It says. No, 280 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: I am a much loved, eternal child of God. 281 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: That's who Amen. 282 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, my life doesn't feel good right now. Yeah, I'm struggling, 283 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: But hey, my king died here. They killed him, and 284 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: he told me we'd struggle here. Let's just embrace it now. 285 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: I can say that now. I couldn't say that fifteen 286 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: sixteen years ago when I was going through the But 287 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: that's part of the process of surrendering to the fact 288 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: that that's who I am. I'm a much loved child 289 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 2: of God. I'm not God. I'm not big and bad 290 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: and got everything under control. I'm a child and I 291 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: need my father and I need my friends. 292 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. We're going to take a quick break for 293 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: our sponsors. Right now. We'll be right back. We are 294 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: back with Jim Kinder. We're having a great conversation. Jim 295 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: Kinder has been talking about his identity in Christ, that 296 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: he's a much loved child of God. Jim, do you 297 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: feel like that all the time? 298 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: Don't I wish? I mean, we still live in this 299 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: tent as well as and so it's a discipline, isn't 300 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: it to understand who we are and not let it 301 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 2: go to our heads either. Good point, because we are 302 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: still human, and not misrepresent what it means if we're 303 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: much loved child of God. We are in this world 304 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 2: where there will be struggles, and it doesn't mean everything's 305 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: going to be perfect. But well then you have bad days. 306 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: When you have multiple bad days, you kind of scratch 307 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: your head and wonder what am I doing wrong? And 308 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: sometimes we do do something, but again not allowing those 309 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: temporary things to define this which is eternal. And even 310 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: when I mess up and do those things, my eternal 311 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: identity is I'm a much loved child of God. And 312 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: I'm in his family through Jesus Christ, through what Christ 313 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: did for me. 314 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: No matter how you feel, just because you feel one 315 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: way doesn't mean it's not true, all right. I think 316 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: that many Christians assume that healing means that you never 317 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: have to think about the hurt again. But that's not realistic, 318 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: is it. 319 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: No? I think that's little naive at times, simplistic and 320 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: really not healthy. 321 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: So how would you find healing for me? 322 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: I think that healing comes when the song stops playing 323 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: in your head. I'm a low my shotgun, wait by 324 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: the doorlight of cigarette. You ain't crazy, come on, I'm ready. 325 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: I want to get this right. And even when we 326 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: hear these songs on the radio, it gives us energy, 327 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: and we're expending energy into something that's one not real 328 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: or negative because we're not going to get a shotgun 329 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,359 Speaker 2: more than likely hopefully not, please don't. But it's that fantasy, 330 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden we get ramped back up 331 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: in that. I think healing comes when the memories come, 332 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: and they do come because of shared events. Then it 333 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: flashes you back to that moment because it was so traumatic. 334 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: But when that happens, the energy is sucked out or 335 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: drained out of you. There. It doesn't take you away 336 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: to someplace else, even for a moment. But it's like, yeah, 337 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: that happened to me. It was horrible, and I'm okay now. 338 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: So you're saying healing is not forgetting. 339 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: No, I think the idea of forgetting is also really naive. 340 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: I know. The scripture says our sins are cast as 341 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: far as from the east is from the west, and 342 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: people say, well, God forgets. Well, no, God doesn't forget. 343 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: I mean, come on, I knew David Sinn the Mashiba. 344 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: Yeah right, God knows that. But what does it mean. 345 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: It means God's not holding it against us, That's what 346 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: it means. It means that it doesn't get to define us. 347 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: It means that it doesn't get to control us. It 348 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: means that is not the defining moment of my life 349 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: or our lives. The other side of that, though, is 350 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: over time. I mean I don't I don't think about 351 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: it anymore until I'm triggered. But with healing and time 352 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: they get less and less and less. Will there come 353 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: a day when it will never bother me? I don't know. 354 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: I think about when a spouse loses a loved one 355 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: after fifty sixty years of marriage, and they're weeping and 356 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: they're grieving, and somebody honestly says to them, Oh, you'll 357 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: get over it. It just takes time. And I've often 358 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: said to that person, why would you ever say that, 359 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: Why would you want to get over that? You love 360 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: that person for sixty years? Why would you ever want 361 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: to get over that? That's a beautiful thing. Now, so 362 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: somewhat in the reverse, But there's this aspect that says, 363 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 2: if I ever totally forget the depths of the pain 364 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: that I felt, then will I ever fully know the 365 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 2: height of the joy that God has brought me. That 366 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: may not work for everybody. I don't know. The thing 367 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 2: that I learned, Carol was that the depth of the 368 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 2: pain we feel is the inverse of the potential. And 369 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 2: it's definitely potential joy that we can experience in our life. 370 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 2: But if we're going to know the joy, we have 371 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 2: to know the pain. Yeah, and again, it's all potential. 372 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: But I really believe that that's true. At least I feel 373 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: like that's been true in my experience. 374 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: How do you know when you've moved from just surviving 375 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: to healing? 376 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: I think you know that you're in the process when 377 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: again you catch yourself. It's like you start getting angry 378 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: and you get flustered and you want to say something 379 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: or do something, and you stop yourself and you go, 380 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: isn't worth it? What good is it doing? And I 381 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 2: think that's the Holy Spirit reminding us, whispering in our ears. 382 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: You know, the Holy Spirit doesn't shout at least not 383 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: a whole lot. To me, he whispered, and it's like, Okay, 384 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 2: you're right, tady breath. Yes it was bad. I don't 385 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 2: live there anymore. It doesn't define me anymore. 386 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: I like that because it sounds like there are moments 387 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: when you realize, okay, I'm healthier than I used to be, Like, 388 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: it's this progression. 389 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for me it really is a progression. 390 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: Even after that moment I had with the Lord out 391 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: on that run, it was still a progression. It was 392 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: still going back and having to remind myself, you remember 393 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: what God told you on that run? Over and over 394 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 2: in scripture, how many times would we read the word Remember, 395 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: remember what the Lord has done. Remember what the Lord 396 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 2: has done, because that points to what he's doing. So 397 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: when you're on that trajectory, moving forward, you sense the 398 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: freedom you quit holding into grudges and it's okay to 399 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 2: let go and then move forward because what's happened has happened, 400 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: and there's more life to be lived. So okay, how important. 401 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: Was counseling in that process for you? 402 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: It was vital. I had my friends, yeah, but I 403 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: needed someone to peel the onion. And by that what 404 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: I think a good counselor does, and by the way, 405 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: I think counselors and preachers and lawyers are all alike, 406 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: and that you have to find the one that speaks 407 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 2: to you. I went through a number of counselors. They 408 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: were all great, but I needed to find the person 409 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: that spoke to me. And once I found that person, 410 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: it was healing. But he was able to unpeel the 411 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 2: onion of my life and get to the center core 412 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: of the issue and not just take a knife and 413 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: cut it. I mean, he probably looked at me and 414 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: probably could have said, oh, I know what's wrong with you. 415 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: But then you destroy the center and so if you 416 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: want to keep that center hole, you have to carefully 417 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: peel that onion. And he was able to help me 418 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: peel that onion back. And I've always been about achievements 419 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: and awards, and I feel better when I've achieved and 420 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 2: the more I've achieved. And you know, I came from 421 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: a very small town, have my name in the paper, 422 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: did some things in school, won a few awards, but 423 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 2: I'm talking very small school. But I still honor those things. 424 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: But it's kind of like, if you get the awards, 425 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: then you get the accolades. Now you are somebody and 426 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 2: that becomes right entity. Then when you lose, now what 427 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: do you do? And I don't know how familiar your 428 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: listeners are with the inneagram or how much they buy 429 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: into that. I don't know how much I buy into it, 430 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: but I'm about inteagram three, which means I always want 431 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: people to think positively of me and all that stuff. Well, 432 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: when you're a pastor and your marriage is over, you 433 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 2: can't spend that positively. Yeah, So it wasn't just that event. 434 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 2: I had to look at the core of who I 435 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: am and how do I operate in this world? And 436 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: it's all about people pleasing and wanting people to like me, 437 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 2: and for never knowing who I am because I just 438 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: wanted to mirror who they wanted me to be. Win 439 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: the award so I could get their accolades. Right. So 440 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: see that was the core, the center, and so part 441 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 2: of the destruction that came out of the blue was yeah, 442 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: I was so out of character, just blew me away. 443 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: But the other part was my identity was just Tripp 444 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 2: because it was bad. It was a loss. You lost 445 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 2: Jim Kinder. So that's what the counselor helped me do. 446 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: He helped me peel that back. The other thing counselor helped 447 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 2: with and I had an incredible counselor. He actually met 448 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: with my friends and he said, here's what you need 449 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 2: to do for Jim, and he kind of laid it 450 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: out and so so it was just a beautiful relationship. 451 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: And I needed that person who I could trust, who 452 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: knew spiritually and psychologically what was going on inside of 453 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: me and could understand that a little better. 454 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: I think maybe it made you a better pastor. 455 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 2: Well I hope. So, I hope it made me a 456 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: better person and understanding people a little better and a 457 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: lot more grace. Sometimes you just had all you can stand. 458 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 2: As Popeye would say, you can't stands. 459 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: In a wol. 460 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 2: That doesn't make you a bad person, That makes you 461 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 2: a person. You know. 462 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: I love that. We're going to take a quick break 463 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: for our sponsors right now. We'll be right back. Why 464 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: should Christians be willing to seek help. 465 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: Because they're broken and they need it? I mean, because 466 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: they're just real. I mean, we're all, whether it's professional help, 467 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 2: whether it's from a friend see the idea. And we 468 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: we when I say well, I mean pastors like you 469 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 2: and I we've done the damnage because we talked about 470 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: this personal relations with Jesus Christ for so long, and 471 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: there is an aspect of that, it is very true. 472 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: But we have to remember Christ died for the church 473 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 2: so that we be part of the community, the Kingdom 474 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: of God, which is a community. We are never meant 475 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: to be alone. And so what happens is we think 476 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: of Christianity is that we're all in kayaks kind of 477 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: rowing to get towards the goal, whatever that goal is. 478 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: The reality is that's not what it's like at all. 479 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: It's like one of those old ships where there's forty 480 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: paddles and you're sitting there and everybody's got an oar 481 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: and you're rowing that or well in the kayak when 482 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: your world blows up like mine did and you can't 483 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: row anymore. What happens, well, you stop and you're at 484 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: the whims of the waves in the ocean and the 485 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: torrent that's there. But if I'm in this big ship 486 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 2: that's got forty oars and I stopped rowing, the ship 487 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 2: still keeps moving. I just need to stay on that ship. 488 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 2: I don't need to run away from the church. I 489 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 2: needed the church. I need it. My brothers, I needed them, 490 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: and in a sense I borrowed their faith because I 491 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 2: haven't Carol. I remember one Sunday, it's crazy, I'm getting 492 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: ready to preach it and you talk about a feeling 493 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: like a hypogritte, and I don't hide emotions real well. 494 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 2: So one of my friends came up to me and 495 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: they said, Jim, are you okay. I looked at him 496 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 2: and I said, would you tell me? I said, tell 497 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 2: me it's true. You looked at me like I was nuts, 498 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 2: Like what are you talking about? I said, tell me 499 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: what I'm going to talk about is true today because 500 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 2: I just don't know anything. And I mean, we're talking 501 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: ten minutes before I'm doing a mic check. We're talking 502 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 2: ten minutes before I go on stage. And he's like, 503 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 2: Jim's true. It's true. So I took his faith and 504 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: walked up into the public. And some people would say 505 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: I should have never done that. I won't argue with that. 506 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: I'm just telling you what happened. I'm telling you where 507 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 2: I was and how broken I was. But see, I 508 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 2: needed his faith. I needed him to keep pulling the oar. 509 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: I couldn't pull my We need the church, and oftentimes, 510 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: because the church is made of imperfect people, we have 511 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 2: shunned people, we have pushed people away, we have done 512 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: this thing. And I would tell you one of the 513 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: great graces that I had at that moment was I 514 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 2: was at a large church. I was a senior associate, 515 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: and so there was a lead pastor that was over me. 516 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: I led the contemporary part of the service of the 517 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: church and he led the more traditional pork But he 518 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: came in and he just supported me. We had a 519 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: meeting during one of the services. Well we had too, 520 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: so during the services that I was leading, I said, Hey, 521 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: I'm going through some family issues. If you want to 522 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 2: know how to pray for me, We're going to all 523 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: meet in the hospitality room after this service, and the 524 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: senior Pastor's going to come and tell you how you 525 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 2: can pray for me. Well, in church world, that's code 526 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: if you want to know what's going on in the room. 527 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 2: And so they did, you know, hundreds of people did, 528 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: and he's there and he just said, listen, I know 529 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: it's going on in Jen's life. He's having some marriage 530 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: difficulties and I know what's happening. And Jim's still my guy. 531 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: I trust him. I know God's using him. So we're 532 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: not going to talk about this. We're going to support 533 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 2: him in his family and pray for him. That was it. Now, 534 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: if they talked about it, I never heard of wow 535 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: because I needed that covering. I needed that senior pastor 536 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: at that time help me walk me through that. 537 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: And he knew who you were. 538 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, he saw he saw deeper. Man. 539 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: Today people see your marriage with a lady that I 540 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: know in love, Carrie Anne Kinder, and they recognize the 541 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: help and the joy that's there. What made this relationship different, well, a. 542 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: Couple of claims. One. I was different because I had 543 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: to go through a healing process and understanding my core, 544 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: understand that I have a tendency to people please and 545 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah blah, and it's not about that. 546 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: Carrie Anne was going through her own struggles at the time. 547 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: She was in a storm, and it's her story. So 548 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 2: one day when she's well, she'll share her story. But 549 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: we both were in a healing process of understanding who 550 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: we really are and who our heavenly Father calls us, 551 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: and our heavenly Father declares that we are going into 552 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: that process of self reflection, prayer, listening to the Holy Spirit, 553 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 2: reading spiriture friends. So we were both on our own 554 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: healing journey through that. When we came together, we had 555 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: both went through that and we're healing to that level. 556 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 2: I think that was a great foundation for our marriage. 557 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: And I'm so thankful that I went through all that 558 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: stuff because otherwise, if you don't change, you're going to 559 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 2: bring all that stuff right into the next relationship exactly. 560 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: So I am very blessed and you are, well. You know, 561 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: we try to keep Christ the center of our marriage 562 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 2: because I know sound through preachery and stuff. And so 563 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 2: you would say, well, Jim, you didn't in your previous one. 564 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to be honest. And that's the 565 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: thing I'd challenge with couples all the time, is look, 566 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,239 Speaker 2: you go together spiritually you go together, or you grow 567 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 2: together emotionally, you grow physically together. What does it mean 568 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: for you to grow spiritually together? So many couples miss that, 569 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 2: and I tell everybody, I can't tell you what that 570 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 2: looks like for you, but it's the journey. If you 571 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 2: surche it together, it's a beautiful gift. And that's what 572 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 2: we did. We're very open about our relations with Christ 573 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: and challenges and pray together and hey, I saw this 574 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: and read this and really just trying to keep that 575 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 2: centered in our lives. 576 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: That's awesome. That being said, how do we keep our 577 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: wounds from becoming our identity? 578 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 2: Well, remember I know your mom was a wonderful lady. No, 579 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: thank you, don't you dare edit that out. She's you 580 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: got a wound, yes, fell down, scraped your arm, and 581 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 2: it starts to scab you. My mom said, quit picking 582 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: at it. Yeah, picking at it. That's when healing can begin. 583 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: When we quit picking at this scar, the pain, the wound. Yeah, 584 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 2: start looking deeper in, start looking at what's going on 585 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 2: inside of me, what's happening here, and understanding from that 586 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: foundation of who I am and rebuilding that. And it 587 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: takes time because some wounds are devastating, and some woms 588 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: you just can't help but pick at it because it 589 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 2: still hurts and still stings, and it still wasn't fair. 590 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: And all those things are true. 591 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: I know part of you our family and some joy 592 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: that you get from your sons. How has your relationship 593 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: with your son shaped your understanding of healing? 594 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: Oh, that's an interesting person. For my son's part of 595 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: it is I had to let them go through their 596 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: own process. And I will tell you my boys were older, 597 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: one was finishing up the middle school. I want to 598 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: just graduate it, but they have their process that they 599 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: go through, so I'm not sure how it has affected that. 600 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: I will tell you in my relationship our boys, my 601 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: boys are great. We're just a good family and they 602 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: do their life. We do ours, and we love getting 603 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: together and cheering for each other. And sometimes they do 604 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: their things, which is good. 605 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: You all avoided getting better from what I see third 606 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: party looking. 607 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: In, Yeah, we try. We understand what happened. I will 608 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: tell you that when everything happened, the one prayer I 609 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: had for my boys was God, let them see truth, 610 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 2: which sounds really self righteous, but I didn't mean it 611 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: like that. Let them see their Dad for who he 612 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: is too, because I'm not perfect in any of this, 613 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: and I think I became more real to them. And 614 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: if Dad can go through a failure like this, if 615 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: I fail, it's okay too, And it is okay. I 616 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: like to say that grace is not just hey, it's 617 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 2: okay that you've messed up. And that's not grace. The 618 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 2: grace is okay that you messed up. Now let's move forward. Now, 619 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: let's keep going. Now, let's find a lot. That's what 620 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: Grace says. Grace doesn't just go it's okay. Well no, 621 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: it's not okay. It's horrible. So are you hurt? So 622 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,959 Speaker 2: are you messed up? What's next? God says, come on, 623 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: let's grow, come on, let's change one. Let's find lives 624 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 2: with can embrace failure a little easier and get up 625 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: in the phone. 626 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: It's not fun, nobody would pick to go through it, 627 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: but it don't shape you and you can go on. 628 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: I agree, all right. So, as a pastor, when you 629 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: counsel somebody that has just experienced betrayal, what's the first 630 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: thing they need to hear? 631 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: Silence? Silence, Just be there with them, give them opportunity 632 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: to voice hurt pain, Let them scream, curse, yell at God, 633 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: yell at themselves, yell at anybody else, give them a 634 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: safe place to let them know. And a lot of 635 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: times especially and the stereotypical may not be true in 636 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: all cases, but yeah, then want to cowboy up, I'm 637 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: gonna be okay, and they want to just look at 638 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: them and into mind them. But this really hurts, isn't it. 639 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 2: I remember one of the times, Carol, I was going 640 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: through a horrible day, horrible and I'm literally in a 641 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: fetal position in the closet just crying, just this hurts 642 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: so bad. And I was praying. I said, God, you 643 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: got to take this away. And then the thought hit 644 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: me and I don't know where it came. I it 645 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: was the Holy Spirit or what. But then the prayer was, no, God, 646 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: let me feel it all. I want to feel it 647 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: all because I knew I had to feel it all. 648 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: I knew if I was going to be healed, if 649 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: I was going to move forward eventually, I need to 650 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 2: feel this pain because sin always hurts, and we want 651 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 2: to whitewash it or sugarcoat it, or push it away 652 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: or medicate it, and until we sense the reality and 653 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: the depths of that, And then I really wonder, can 654 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: we really understand the greatness of God's love for us 655 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: when I send some of the dictors. So I think 656 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: that the idea of allowing them to voice that and 657 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: allowing somebody who's been through betrayal to really embrace their pain. 658 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: We all want to be quick fixers. I have literally 659 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: had a person come in my office I've just been 660 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: through this devastating thing and look at me and say, 661 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 2: but I am so ready to have a relationship like 662 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: you and Carrie Anne have boy, you know, because there's 663 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: there's no guarantee and you got to deal with this. 664 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 2: We just we don't deal with pain. Well. We want 665 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: to get through it. And I don't blame anybody for that. 666 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 2: But if you're gonna if you're gonna find healing, I 667 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: really believe you've got to embrace the reality of well, 668 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 2: this really. 669 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: Hurts the authenticity. All right. Here's a final big question. 670 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: If somebody's listening right now and they're wondering whether they'll 671 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: ever be okay again, what would you want them to know. 672 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: There's a sentence that to their heaven they fathered they're 673 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: okay right now, God loves you right where you are, 674 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: as you are broken, as you are hurt, as you 675 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: are confused, as you are still an eternal, much loved 676 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 2: child child of God. Please don't forget that. Hold on 677 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: to that. That doesn't mean what you're feeling right now 678 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: is not real, or it's fair, or it was supposed 679 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 2: to happen. No, no, no, none of that's true. What 680 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: is true is right now. You are an eternal, much 681 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: loved child of God. If you don't have a relationship 682 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: with him, he's waiting for you to just throw your 683 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: arms out and embrace him. If you do have a 684 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 2: relationship with him, quit trying to fix it and just 685 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: crawl into your father's lap for the moment. Just stay 686 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 2: there for a while, because this does not have to 687 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: define you. It only gets to define you if you 688 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 2: let it define it. 689 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: Amen. Wow, thank you for joining us today, Jim Kinder. 690 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Carol. 691 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: Friends. Maybe one thing stood out to you during today's conversation. 692 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: Maybe it was the importance of community. Maybe it was 693 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: the reminder that counseling isn't weakness. Maybe it was the 694 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: realization that healing doesn't mean forgetting. Or maybe it was 695 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: this truth Jim just shared with us. Your deepest wound 696 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: is not your identity is believers. Our identity isn't what 697 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: happened to us. It's rooted in Christ. And those painful 698 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: chapters matter and they shape us. That they don't get 699 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: the final word, because, as Jim said, what is temporary 700 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: should never be allowed to determine what's eternal. Thanks for 701 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: listening to Faith over fear. If today's episode encouraged you, 702 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it 703 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: with a friend. Every review helps people find hope and 704 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: biblical encouragement. So until next time, remember God's truth is 705 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: greater than your fear, and may you live as one 706 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: who has truly been set free.