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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dr.

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Speaker 3: James Spencer, and I'm joined again today by David Koizis.

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Speaker 3: David's been on the show a couple of times in

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Speaker 3: the past, talking not only about politics, which is the

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Speaker 3: topic of conversation today, but he was also on talking

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Speaker 3: about the Psalms. And so it's great to have David back.

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Speaker 3: He is a member of Global Scholars Canada and an

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Speaker 3: author of Citizenship Without Illusions and several other books, one

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Speaker 3: of which we'll get into later today. But I'll have

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Speaker 3: links to his stuff in the show notes. But I

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Speaker 3: would encourage you, we've talked about Citizenship Without Illusions on

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Speaker 3: the show before, but he's actually got a couple of

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Speaker 3: other political books that I think would be really great

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Speaker 3: for folks to look at.

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Speaker 1: So we'll link those in the show description as well.

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Speaker 1: But without further ado, David, welcome back to the program.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, James. I very much enjoyed our previous conversation,

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Speaker 2: so I really looked forward to it today as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we're going to hop back into familiar territory.

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Speaker 3: I'm in this territory that you deal with a lot

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Speaker 3: more than I do, actually. And so, you know, as

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Speaker 3: we're leading up into in America, we have the midterms

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Speaker 3: coming up. And what we're trying to do on the

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Speaker 3: show is really help give Christians a little bit of

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Speaker 3: a different sense of how they might think about their

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Speaker 3: political participation and what it really means to live out

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Speaker 3: our faith publicly in that realm as a political sort

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Speaker 3: of movement. So not exactly about voting and all that

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Speaker 3: kind of fun stuff, but how do we think of

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Speaker 3: ourselves as political within this movement?

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Speaker 1: Particular nation or any nation, really. And so maybe we

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Speaker 1: can just start there.

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Speaker 3: Like, I know you deal with in the book, sort

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Speaker 3: of this, you situate us between, you know, being residents

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Speaker 3: of earth and citizens of heaven.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's your language. That's mine. But help

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Speaker 1: us understand sort of how we sit in relation to

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Speaker 1: the governing authorities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can find analogies for other communities

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Speaker 2: of which we are a part as well. You know, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, we can say that we're citizens of Canada

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Speaker 2: or the United States or Brazil or whatever, whatever other country,

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Speaker 2: you know, but, but it's, it's the same way as

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Speaker 2: saying that, you know, I'm a member of a particular

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Speaker 2: birth family. I was born into that, that birth family. Uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm a member of, uh, of a, um, uh,

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Speaker 2: maybe a particular church congregation as well. I'm a, I'm

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Speaker 2: a member of this and that, and a variety of

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Speaker 2: different kinds of communities. And, uh, the political community is

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Speaker 2: no higher, um, than those other communities. We have divided responsibilities,

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Speaker 2: divided loyalties, almost structurally, just by who we are as

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Speaker 2: those created in God's image. And where we find ourselves

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Speaker 2: in this particular stage of history, we find ourselves embedded

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Speaker 2: in a variety of communities, to each of which we

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Speaker 2: have responsibilities. And I think those responsibilities are, you know,

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Speaker 2: they do not, define us. No one of them can

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Speaker 2: define who we are as those created in God's image.

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Speaker 2: So those people who would say, well, we are Americans first,

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Speaker 2: or we are Canadians first. I hardly ever hear Canadians

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Speaker 2: using that kind of language. I might hear Americans, perhaps,

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Speaker 2: maybe in the 1930s, you would have heard Germans using

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Speaker 2: that kind of language as well. But ultimately, we are

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Speaker 2: members of the body of Christ. That's our first allegiance.

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Speaker 2: And that body is an international body. And then within that,

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Speaker 2: we are members of a variety of different kinds of communities,

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Speaker 2: all of which help to define us as those who

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Speaker 2: are created in God's image, but none of which exhaust

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Speaker 2: who we are as the image of God.

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Speaker 3: I want to kind of think through a little bit

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Speaker 3: this idea of first allegiance, because I think when I've

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Speaker 3: had conversations with folks, it's been hard to get people

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Speaker 3: out of what I'll call.

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Speaker 1: Sort of a prioritization mentality, right?

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Speaker 3: Like you have a pie graph, and as long as

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Speaker 3: you're giving God 51% of that pie graph, you're in

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Speaker 3: good shape or something like that. You know, like we

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Speaker 3: have this sense of, well, I loved God this morning,

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Speaker 3: and now I can go ahead and do everything else

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Speaker 3: I need to do. And that's not really, I think,

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Speaker 3: what we're talking about, right?

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Speaker 1: No, that's right.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And, you know, I have a spiritual discipline,

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Speaker 2: of morning and evening prayer, you know, the revolves around

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Speaker 2: the Benedictine pattern. I've been doing that ever since I

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Speaker 2: was about 23 years old, you know, so this is a,

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Speaker 2: you know, the better part of half a century now,

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Speaker 2: you know, and, and, and there, the, the danger in

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Speaker 2: that is that you can think that, okay, I've gotten

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Speaker 2: this out of the way now. Now it's time to

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Speaker 2: get on with the rest of the day and with my,

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Speaker 2: my work and whatever I'm, I'm doing, you know, and,

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Speaker 2: and that's not the way to, that's not the way

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Speaker 2: to think about it, you know? So, I mean, there's the, the,

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Speaker 2: I mentioned the Benedictines. The Benedictines have this pattern of prayer.

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Speaker 2: They didn't invent it. I think St. Benedict was simply

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Speaker 2: codifying something that had been in practice for centuries, even

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Speaker 2: among God's people of the Old Covenant, of prayers that

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Speaker 2: took place several times a day. It may seem formulaic

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Speaker 2: to us, but this is the way I'm reasonably confident

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Speaker 2: that Jesus himself was embedded in that pattern as he

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Speaker 2: was growing into adulthood. And, you know, there's something to

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Speaker 2: be said for the entire day being bathed in the

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Speaker 2: awareness of God's presence. And, you know, these prayer hours

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Speaker 2: are approximately every three hours. There's something like that in

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Speaker 2: the Lutheran tradition, which I know you were raised in

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Speaker 2: as well. And I think it's a valuable tradition. But

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Speaker 2: even that we can think of, well, we've gotten that

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Speaker 2: out of the way. Now we can get on with

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Speaker 2: our work. But our work is actually done before the

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Speaker 2: face of God. And I think that's an awareness that

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Speaker 2: we need to keep with us 24-7.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the way I've been trying to explain this to

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Speaker 3: people is using the imagery of scuba diving, right? When

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Speaker 3: you jump, when you're underneath the water and you're immersed

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Speaker 3: in that water, you communicate differently, you move differently, you know,

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Speaker 3: your senses are different. you know, your senses respond to

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Speaker 3: the environment differently, all those kinds of things. And it's like,

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Speaker 3: that's sort of the shift I think that needs to

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Speaker 3: take place. When we think about being immersed in the

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Speaker 3: love of God, it changes the way now that we

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Speaker 3: end up interacting with these other loyalties that we have.

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Speaker 3: When we engage in our family, we do so as,

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Speaker 3: as people immersed within the love of God. And that

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Speaker 3: changes then the way that we interact with our family.

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Speaker 3: It changes the way we interact with our politics to

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Speaker 3: change the way we interact with our.

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Speaker 1: Work, that kind of an idea.

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Speaker 3: And I've, I've found people to resonate with that.

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Speaker 1: I'd be interested to hear what you think about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, I, I don't know that I would use

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Speaker 2: such a metaphor because I've never scuba dived and I'm,

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Speaker 2: I'm only a social, I'm only a social swimmer, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm completely self-taught. I can keep myself afloat, you know,

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Speaker 2: but it's, but, but, but, but I mean, you're right.

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Speaker 2: When you're in the water, you, you, um, Everything is different,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I think for those of us who

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Speaker 2: are aware of being in Christ and, you know, this

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Speaker 2: is something my awareness of God's presence is something that

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Speaker 2: I've had ever since I was a small child. And

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Speaker 2: it's not something I could easily shake. And I know

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Speaker 2: it's quite different. You know, I'm quite different from my

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Speaker 2: maternal grandfather who was raised a Lutheran, but was an

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Speaker 2: agnostic in his in his later life. You know, and

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Speaker 2: for me, that's I can't even fathom that it's so

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Speaker 2: far outside of my own experiences. But I think insofar

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Speaker 2: as we are aware of being in Christ, it does

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Speaker 2: affect the way that we live our lives. And it's

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Speaker 2: not going to be necessarily obvious to everybody every minute

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Speaker 2: of the day, but I think it'll come out in

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Speaker 2: subtle ways in the way that we treat our loyalties,

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Speaker 2: the way that we handle our diverse responsibilities towards family

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Speaker 2: and towards friends and towards our church communities, towards our workplace.

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Speaker 2: and so forth. And I think that's something that people

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Speaker 2: may keep that in mind. I had the experience a

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Speaker 2: few years ago of being in a local Tim Hortons.

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Speaker 2: It's a donut shop that's ubiquitous in Canada. It's almost

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Speaker 2: a national institution. And there's a place not far from

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Speaker 2: here where I go to spend time with friends and

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Speaker 2: so forth. I was meeting a former student of mine

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Speaker 2: a few years ago. We were sitting there and somebody

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Speaker 2: came up to us and he said, are you two Christians?

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Speaker 2: And I said, well, yes. How did you know that?

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Speaker 2: I don't remember the answer. Well, I think he actually

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Speaker 2: asked whether we were ministers. And I don't know why

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Speaker 2: he thought that, you know, but there was something in

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Speaker 2: the way that we were talking with each other and,

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Speaker 2: you know, comporting ourselves that he sensed that there was

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Speaker 2: something going on. And, you know, and a few years later,

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Speaker 2: I can't, I can't even remember, think of how he

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Speaker 2: might've thought that, but it, It came out to him

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Speaker 2: while he was there, and I've had that experience in

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Speaker 2: that place with other people as well.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: It is, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Because you grew up in the States, right? That's right.

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Speaker 1: How long were you actually in the States?

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Speaker 3: 30 years.

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Speaker 2: 30 years, okay, and then you moved to Canada. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then 40 years here in Canada, 41 years I

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Speaker 2: suppose now. But yeah, I grew up in the Chicago area.

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Speaker 2: That's where I think I've lost the accent. I go

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Speaker 2: back and it sounds like everybody has an accent now,

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Speaker 2: you know, but I've been away from there for so long.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, that's where I grew up.

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Speaker 3: When you, I mean, when you're looking at the politics

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Speaker 3: between the United States and Canada, and, you know, you're

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Speaker 3: thinking about sort of Christian identity in both of those places,

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Speaker 3: what are some of the key differences you would say

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Speaker 3: that you see? I mean, I think particularly for Christian

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Speaker 3: engagement in politics, I just don't know that much about

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Speaker 3: Canadian systems of government and how strong that actually is

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Speaker 3: within Canada. It's the little blips with certain prime ministers

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Speaker 3: or what have you.

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Speaker 2: Before I talk about the political system, I mean, it

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Speaker 2: is a different system. It's a Westminster system. So in

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Speaker 2: some ways, it's closer to that of the United Kingdom.

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Speaker 2: Australia and New Zealand, it's a little bit more inflexible here.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit more rigid. In the United Kingdom, you

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Speaker 2: hear about backbench revolts against a sitting prime minister within

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Speaker 2: his own party. You never hear about that in Canada, unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: I wish you did. So in some ways, we've inherited

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Speaker 2: some of the most rigid features of the Westminster system.

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Speaker 2: but we've also adopted some of the worst features of

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Speaker 2: the American as well. You know, we're kind of in between, but,

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Speaker 2: but we haven't gotten the best of both sides, I'm afraid. So, but, but,

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Speaker 2: but I wanted to start by saying that I think

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Speaker 2: there's a, there's a different attitude on the part of

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Speaker 2: Christians in Canada towards the, the country of, of their birth,

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Speaker 2: you know? So it's, it's, you know, in the United States,

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Speaker 2: there's a much stronger sense of, of American identity and

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Speaker 2: that this somehow has, um, You know, it goes to

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Speaker 2: the heart in a deeper way than Canadian identity does.

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Speaker 2: You know, so to be Canadian is not to be

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Speaker 2: American in some sense. It's also to have people speaking

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Speaker 2: two different languages. And now we would add the indigenous

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Speaker 2: languages on top of that, you know, Inuit and O'Keefe

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Speaker 2: and Ojibwe and all of these other languages. and so

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Speaker 2: forth on top of that. So there's a much looser identity,

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Speaker 2: a much looser identification with Canada. Yesterday was one of

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Speaker 2: our national holidays. It's called Victoria Day, and it's named

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Speaker 2: obviously for Queen Victoria, who was queen at the time

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Speaker 2: the Canadian Confederation came about in 1867. And I was

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Speaker 2: joking with my wife as we were people typically, we

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Speaker 2: use it to attend to our gardens, to plant plants,

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Speaker 2: you know, after the long Canadian winter. And I said,

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Speaker 2: I said, I think I was telling my wife yesterday,

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Speaker 2: I think I think Canadians have lost the true spirit

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Speaker 2: of Victoria Day. You know, we've overly commercialized it, you know,

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Speaker 2: which is an absolutely absurd statement to make. And I

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Speaker 2: was being humorous about that. But, you know, but I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, we identify with Canada, but but it's not.

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Speaker 2: But there are a lot of other things we identify

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Speaker 2: with as well. And we're comfortable with that. You would

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Speaker 2: never have anybody saying, I'm a Canadian first above everything else.

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Speaker 2: I think people would laugh if somebody actually said that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I mean, we have even beyond, you know, being Americans,

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Speaker 3: a lot of states have this as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you grew up in Chicago. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: there is a deeper Chicago loyalty, let's say, than being

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Speaker 1: in Illinois.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we were laughing before the show. It's like

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Speaker 3: if you go south of Chicago too far, you're no

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Speaker 3: longer in Illinois.

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Speaker 2: I know. It's downstate. Everything out there in Chicago is downstate.

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Speaker 1: It's downstate, right.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, Texas is obviously, you know, we

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Speaker 3: have the don't mess with Texas. You know, there's certain

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Speaker 3: states that develop their own sort of, oh, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: from whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: And those become much more stronger identity statements even sometimes

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Speaker 3: than the national.

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Speaker 1: And so, yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's just some sort of weird tendency that we have

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Speaker 3: in America that we seem to do this and like

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Speaker 3: find this sort of real cohesion around our nation or

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Speaker 3: our state or I suppose even our local community, depending

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Speaker 3: on where you're from. You know, Los Angelinos or, you know,

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Speaker 3: New York, New York, kind of Chicago, that kind of

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Speaker 3: those kind of places tend to create their own gravity.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's right. And that's inevitable in countries the size

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Speaker 2: of Canada and the United States. And in a country,

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Speaker 2: the United States is about 10 times the size of Canada,

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Speaker 2: maybe nine times the size of Canada now. We've had

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Speaker 2: quite a bit of growth in recent years. And to

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Speaker 2: try to identify with a community that's that large, it's

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Speaker 2: not something that comes from us naturally. You know, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't arise from us naturally. You can be loyal to

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Speaker 2: your local community. You can be loyal to your family

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Speaker 2: and so forth, a church community and so forth. But

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Speaker 2: to identify with a country with a third of a

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Speaker 2: billion people, that kind of stretches our loyalties to a

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Speaker 2: great deal. And I think that's why probably Americans, there

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Speaker 2: has been much more of a sense of, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say nationalism quite yet, but there's more of

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Speaker 2: an effort to try to inculcate in Americans this sense

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Speaker 2: of being American. And in my latest book, Citizenship Without Illusions,

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Speaker 2: I talk about that at the very beginning, because I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about my own experience of growing up as a citizen.

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Speaker 2: In my grade school, my elementary school classes, we would sing,

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Speaker 2: we would face the flag. I can even picture it

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Speaker 2: in my grade one classroom back in 1961, 62. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's just to my left, you know, the flag is

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Speaker 2: hanging to my left. We'd put our hands over our

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Speaker 2: heart and we'd recite the Pledge of Allegiance and sing,

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Speaker 2: my country, to you. You know, and that's a way

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Speaker 2: of trying to inculcate this sense of being American in

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Speaker 2: students who, and it might go against our natural affinities

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Speaker 2: in some fashion. You know, there's no pledge to the

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Speaker 2: Canadian flag. You know, our flag was designed only in 1964, 1965.

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Speaker 2: You know, so it's a much newer flag. flag. Prior

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Speaker 2: to that, we didn't even have a national flag. We

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Speaker 2: had the Union Jack and we had the red N sign,

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Speaker 2: which had the Union Jack in the corner and the

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Speaker 2: Canadian coat of arms and so forth. You know, our

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Speaker 2: national symbols do not quite speak to us in the

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Speaker 2: same way that American national symbols speak to Americans.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've done a fair amount of research at

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Speaker 3: this point on American civil religion. And one of the

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Speaker 3: quotes that I found really helpful, but also deeply troubling

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Speaker 3: was from Robert Bella's early work on.

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Speaker 1: American civil religion.

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Speaker 3: And he talks about it in terms of American civil religion,

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Speaker 3: not being anti-clerical or militantly secular. I think it's the

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Speaker 3: way he describes it, but adopting the terminology and some

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Speaker 3: of the rituals out of religion, And I would say

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Speaker 3: in America, particularly Christianity, in such a subtle way that,

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Speaker 3: and this is his phrasing, that most everyday people would

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Speaker 3: never even notice. And then he talks about this being done.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't give it this sort of mustache-twisting conspiratorial tone.

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Speaker 3: But the goal was really to allow people to develop

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Speaker 3: a sense of national pride. so that the nation could

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Speaker 3: move things forward more easily and without the friction that

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Speaker 3: might come with divided loyalties between church and state. And

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Speaker 3: so it's a fascinating line in his work because I

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Speaker 3: think he would view that as a positive of American

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Speaker 3: civil religion.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: Whereas when I read it, I was like, wow, this

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Speaker 3: is really problematic. It's deeply problematic for Christians.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's true. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's something that I, I, became aware of in the,

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Speaker 2: when I was a young man in the, in the

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Speaker 2: mid to late 1970s, you know, and, and at, at,

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Speaker 2: at one point I, I, I adopted a, um, you know,

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Speaker 2: outright hostility towards that to such a degree that I,

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Speaker 2: I had difficulty singing the national anthem at all, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I, and, you know, I've, I've, that's, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: want to go that far now, you know, I'm, I'm obviously,

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Speaker 2: I'm an old man. I, I can, uh, you know, I, I,

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Speaker 2: and I see that there, there's something positive for having, um,

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Speaker 2: you know, national anthems, national hymns, if you will, that

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Speaker 2: will extol pride or try to build up pride in

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Speaker 2: one's country. But of course, pride, you know, there's a

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Speaker 2: legitimate pride, but there's also a very bad pride as well,

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Speaker 2: you know. And of course, pride is one of these

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Speaker 2: seven deadly sins, you know, probably the chief of the

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Speaker 2: sins in that respect. You know, there's a sense that,

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Speaker 2: you know, we only have the one word in English

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Speaker 2: for that. I think some languages distinguish between legitimate pride

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Speaker 2: in one's children's accomplishments, for example, or an unhealthy pride

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Speaker 2: which is a kind of macrocosmic egoism, if you will,

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Speaker 2: which we want to try to avoid at all costs.

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Speaker 2: I think there's something to be said in favor of

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Speaker 2: national pride, but we also have to be aware that

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Speaker 2: it can be taken in horribly distorted directions as well,

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Speaker 2: which we saw in the 1930s in Europe. Certainly that's

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Speaker 2: the sort of thing that we need to try to avoid.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think we should lose an awareness of

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Speaker 2: how things can go badly, even as we cultivate a

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Speaker 2: legitimate pride in our communities, in our national communities or

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Speaker 2: state communities or local communities or any kind of community

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Speaker 2: of which we might be a part.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's really interesting because when we think

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Speaker 3: about that pride that develops, what I often see sort

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Speaker 3: of coming out of that pride is also a hope.

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Speaker 3: And so we just had our jobs report come out

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Speaker 3: in April. We're recording this in May. And so our

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Speaker 3: jobs report came out in April and it was better

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Speaker 3: than everybody expected. But then there are also these reports

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Speaker 3: that are talking about people still feeling sort of still

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Speaker 3: despairing in where we are, despite the more positive numbers.

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Speaker 3: And it's like, well, part of that is, you know,

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Speaker 3: we've just been sort of.

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Speaker 1: Underneath it a little bit. And I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: anything like a lot of Americans aren't as bad off

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Speaker 1: as many other people. But the idea is that we

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Speaker 1: have been feeling more and more pressure in America economically

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Speaker 1: than we have in the past. And so that's starting

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Speaker 1: to wear on people.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think any sort of statistical report is

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Speaker 3: really going to fix that. But I'd like to think

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Speaker 3: the other side is people are just starting to recognize

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Speaker 3: that this is probably never going to be the, the

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Speaker 3: satisfying moment, the peace that surpasses all understanding, um, that

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Speaker 3: we'd love for it to be. And, and that, you know,

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Speaker 3: when pride starts to cultivate that hope, I think it

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Speaker 3: can become really problematic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's interesting because I think, um, you know, we, there,

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Speaker 2: there is hope, but there's also such a thing as, as,

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Speaker 2: as false hopes as well, you know, and, and we

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Speaker 2: tend to, um, you know, we, we, We want to

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Speaker 2: keep hope, but we want to rightly direct our hope,

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Speaker 2: which is not always easy to do. Hope is not

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Speaker 2: the same as optimism. We may look at the world

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Speaker 2: around us and we say we have very little grounds

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Speaker 2: for optimism, but our hope transcends the sorts of pessimistic

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Speaker 2: outlooks that we may find ourselves mired in. at the

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Speaker 2: present time. And if we place our hopes in a president,

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Speaker 2: for example, and Americans, every four years, they go through

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Speaker 2: the ritual of thinking, who is going to save us?

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Speaker 2: And that's the wrong way to think about a political office.

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Speaker 2: In the late 19th century, presidents were fairly weak. There

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Speaker 2: was no central bank. In the late 19th century, J.P.

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Speaker 2: Morgan was uh, had the power to sink the whole

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Speaker 2: American economy. You know, there's one, one man and he

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Speaker 2: wasn't responsible to anybody other than his, I don't know,

401
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Speaker 2: shareholders or the board or whatever to, to his boards,

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Speaker 2: to his companies. Uh, you know, the, the presidents were

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Speaker 2: fairly weak. Uh, the, the, um, uh, uh, most of

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Speaker 2: the business was being done in Congress. The speaker of

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Speaker 2: the house was a very powerful figure at the, in

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Speaker 2: the last, um, part of the 19th century, you know, and,

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Speaker 2: and the, the, uh, you know, the, But beginning, I think,

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Speaker 2: in the 20th century, I think with people like maybe

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Speaker 2: Woodrow Wilson, certainly with Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson, I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Great Society under Lyndon Johnson, the New

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Speaker 2: Deal under Roosevelt, people put exaggerated hopes in a president

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Speaker 2: to be able to make things right. And that goes

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Speaker 2: beyond what any political officeholder can do and should be

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Speaker 2: expected to do. But in many respects, democracy... exacerbates our

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Speaker 2: tendencies because officeholders get elected by making promises that they

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Speaker 2: have to know on some level that they are incapable

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Speaker 2: of fulfilling to the extent that people would like them to. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And it's really interesting because I think most of the time,

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Speaker 3: we know they can't do what they're promising to do.

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Speaker 3: Like anybody who's had even, and maybe this is sort

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Speaker 3: of waning, but any sort of rudimentary understanding of civics

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Speaker 3: and how our government works, you know there's usually not

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Speaker 3: one guy who can do whatever he feels like doing

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Speaker 3: without any other checks and balances.

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Speaker 1: And so there has to be this sort of, that's

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Speaker 1: why it's there. It's slower.

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Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't lend itself to quick knee jerk decisions,

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Speaker 3: but that's by design. And so these things have to

429
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:53,449
Speaker 3: be worked through and negotiated and sort of nudged in

430
00:23:53,470 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 3: a direction as opposed to shoved in a direction. And so,

431
00:23:58,100 --> 00:23:59,820
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, when you listen to some of the

432
00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: promises that are being made, it's like, well, you can

433
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:03,740
Speaker 3: promise to work toward that.

434
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: You can promise to push toward that. You probably can't

435
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,700
Speaker 1: promise to actually do that because it's dependent on all

436
00:24:09,740 --> 00:24:12,300
Speaker 1: these other systems and people to actually get that done.

437
00:24:13,090 --> 00:24:20,709
Speaker 2: That's right. I think it was Harry Truman, before he

438
00:24:20,770 --> 00:24:25,430
Speaker 2: yielded office to President Eisenhower in 1953, said something like,

439
00:24:25,820 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: poor Ike, he's going to find out that the government

440
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,219
Speaker 2: doesn't work like the military. In the military, you can

441
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 2: issue commands to people. That doesn't work that way in government.

442
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,090
Speaker 2: Eisenhower was a wise enough man that I think he

443
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,780
Speaker 2: he probably understood that on some level, you know, but I,

444
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,740
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't doubt that, that there were, there were

445
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: some moments when he, when he realized, oh boy, I wish,

446
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:51,300
Speaker 2: I wish things were a little bit different. So.

447
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: Well, let me, let me flip back to a different conversation.

448
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 3: You'd mentioned, you know, at one point in your life being,

449
00:24:59,380 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: having tension, even singing the national anthem.

450
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,180
Speaker 1: I would admit to that myself.

451
00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:06,390
Speaker 3: Like I think, I've had those moments where I'm like, man,

452
00:25:06,410 --> 00:25:08,270
Speaker 3: should we be participating in some of these that are

453
00:25:08,350 --> 00:25:11,790
Speaker 3: really reinforcing an American civil religion that seems to be

454
00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:14,189
Speaker 3: diluting our Christian convictions.

455
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:18,820
Speaker 1: On some level? I definitely don't take that line now.

456
00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: I've sort of come out of that and said there

457
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,060
Speaker 3: has to be a better way for us to bridge that.

458
00:25:24,570 --> 00:25:29,790
Speaker 3: political engagement and Christian faith, not isolation, but not all

459
00:25:29,869 --> 00:25:32,230
Speaker 3: in all buy-in, you know, like this is the only

460
00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:35,139
Speaker 3: thing I'm doing. How do you think about that sort of,

461
00:25:35,130 --> 00:25:39,619
Speaker 3: I don't know, middle space, right. Between, you know, becoming

462
00:25:39,660 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 3: a monk and living in the desert and, and jumping

463
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 3: into politics full force.

464
00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: Well, very carefully fear and trembling, you know, I don't,

465
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,660
Speaker 2: I don't think there are any easy answers to that.

466
00:25:51,140 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 2: You know, it's, you know, I mean, in terms of

467
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,980
Speaker 2: like the American, American national anthem, you know, the official anthem,

468
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: I think, is a really ugly tune, you know, it's not,

469
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,020
Speaker 2: it's not a very, but we grew up, if we

470
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: were singing anything, it would be My Country Tis of Thee,

471
00:26:05,859 --> 00:26:07,609
Speaker 2: or it would be America the Beautiful, you know, which,

472
00:26:07,619 --> 00:26:10,530
Speaker 2: and I, North the Beautiful, I quite, I quite resonate with,

473
00:26:10,930 --> 00:26:16,270
Speaker 2: and in many respects, that's probably the, the best, the, the, the,

474
00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:20,389
Speaker 2: the most, the best counterpart to to Oh Canada, our

475
00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:23,190
Speaker 2: home and native land, you know, Oh Canada, our home

476
00:26:23,230 --> 00:26:25,670
Speaker 2: and native, you know, and it extols the beauty of

477
00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:28,010
Speaker 2: the land and the communities and so forth. And I

478
00:26:28,030 --> 00:26:30,929
Speaker 2: think that that's, that's much, that's much better, you know,

479
00:26:30,970 --> 00:26:33,390
Speaker 2: and it's, and it, and it has America, the beautiful

480
00:26:33,450 --> 00:26:37,330
Speaker 2: has a much narrower vocal range than the star spangled banner,

481
00:26:37,369 --> 00:26:41,510
Speaker 2: you know, it's much easier for children and to sing

482
00:26:41,530 --> 00:26:45,490
Speaker 2: and for people in, you know, singing at sporting events

483
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,869
Speaker 2: and the like, you know, so it's, um, And that's,

484
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:52,630
Speaker 2: you know, personal aesthetic sensibilities on my part. But, you know,

485
00:26:52,670 --> 00:26:55,190
Speaker 2: I think there's a place for that. I don't like

486
00:26:55,230 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 2: to hear anthems sung in church. You know, even the

487
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,140
Speaker 2: Presbyterian Church, of which we remember is here, you know,

488
00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:08,300
Speaker 2: around the Remembrance Day on the 11th of November, they

489
00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 2: would sing God Save the Queen in Old Canada, you know,

490
00:27:11,050 --> 00:27:12,630
Speaker 2: but they would get it out of the way before

491
00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: the actual worship service started, you know, okay, that's, that's

492
00:27:16,660 --> 00:27:18,340
Speaker 2: probably a good way to do it. If you have

493
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,389
Speaker 2: to do it at all, that's probably the best way

494
00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:23,830
Speaker 2: to do it. But, but, you know, I, I'm not

495
00:27:24,010 --> 00:27:28,310
Speaker 2: entirely comfortable having those sorts of things, having flags sitting

496
00:27:28,350 --> 00:27:30,710
Speaker 2: in church sanctuaries and so forth, you know, maybe in

497
00:27:30,730 --> 00:27:35,139
Speaker 2: the foyer outside, but even that it's, I'm, I'm uneasy

498
00:27:35,180 --> 00:27:35,500
Speaker 2: with that.

499
00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I grew up with that.

500
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 3: Lutheran church usually has an American flag up on the dais. And, and,

501
00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:46,770
Speaker 3: At least the ones I went to did. And, you know,

502
00:27:46,810 --> 00:27:48,290
Speaker 3: so as a kid, you know, you just kind of

503
00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:49,729
Speaker 3: walk in and you do your thing and you don't

504
00:27:49,770 --> 00:27:52,429
Speaker 3: really notice much anyway. But as I've reflected back on

505
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: it as an adult, I'm like, how strange. What an

506
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,540
Speaker 3: odd way to do that.

507
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,140
Speaker 1: That's right. It just seemed very odd to me.

508
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,510
Speaker 3: Now, I got to go to a Lutheran service in Germany.

509
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:12,230
Speaker 1: Um, and you, you definitely get a German flavor in.

510
00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 3: Those Lutheran services in Germany, aside from the language, like

511
00:28:15,580 --> 00:28:18,540
Speaker 3: it is very different. And so I, I, it's not

512
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 3: about local expression, but it seems to me that the

513
00:28:22,220 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: flag being there could denote something of a, um, a

514
00:28:27,060 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 3: split devotion, let's say.

515
00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:32,580
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there's no reason,

516
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:33,940
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're going to have that, why not

517
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,260
Speaker 2: have a state flag and why not have the, a

518
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,190
Speaker 2: city flag, you know, a family coat of arms, you know,

519
00:28:40,330 --> 00:28:44,730
Speaker 2: if you will. I mean, all of these are, you know,

520
00:28:44,790 --> 00:28:50,890
Speaker 2: symbolic of our diverse loyalties, you know, and privileging the

521
00:28:50,910 --> 00:28:54,020
Speaker 2: American flag and the Canadian flag, if you will. I

522
00:28:54,340 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: don't see that there's much to be said for that. Yeah.

523
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,530
Speaker 3: Well, let me, Let me ask this because I know

524
00:29:04,810 --> 00:29:06,969
Speaker 3: you'd mentioned– I think I'm getting this right. Before, we

525
00:29:07,010 --> 00:29:10,410
Speaker 3: were talking about your new book that you're working on,

526
00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:13,150
Speaker 3: not Citizenship Without.

527
00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:14,860
Speaker 1: Illusions, which is already out, but it's a new book

528
00:29:14,890 --> 00:29:15,650
Speaker 1: on the catechism.

529
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:19,700
Speaker 3: And so maybe explain what that book is and then–

530
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:24,100
Speaker 3: If I'm recalling, you talked about gratitude and public life

531
00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 3: as being the last chapter.

532
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,900
Speaker 1: And I'd just be interested.

533
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: I think that has some application to what we're talking

534
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: about with politics.

535
00:29:30,940 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: And so I'd just be interested to kind of talk

536
00:29:32,740 --> 00:29:33,330
Speaker 1: through that with you.

537
00:29:34,390 --> 00:29:36,490
Speaker 2: Sure. For a long time, I wanted to write a

538
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:42,500
Speaker 2: book that would express my faith. in God through Jesus

539
00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:47,020
Speaker 2: Christ in an articulate way that would reach people, admittedly

540
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:53,020
Speaker 2: educated people. For the gospel, maybe there's an evangelistic purpose

541
00:29:53,060 --> 00:29:55,540
Speaker 2: behind this in some fashion. But I wanted to do

542
00:29:55,620 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: so in such a way that I would would show

543
00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: my connection with an ecclesial tradition, a church tradition in

544
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: some fashion. So I decided to take the Heidelberg Catechism.

545
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:18,930
Speaker 2: This is a catechism that was published in 1563. It's

546
00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:26,630
Speaker 2: the most ecumenical confessional document in the Reformed tradition. You know,

547
00:30:26,670 --> 00:30:30,490
Speaker 2: Reformed Christians, unlike the Lutherans, the Lutherans have the the

548
00:30:30,530 --> 00:30:34,390
Speaker 2: formula of Concord, the Augsburg Confession, and so forth. And

549
00:30:34,410 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: they're applicable, they're binding on Lutherans around the world. The

550
00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: Reformed tradition has taken a different approach to that because

551
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:49,100
Speaker 2: different Reformed churches have had different confessions that express the

552
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,620
Speaker 2: substance of the faith, but in a way that speaks

553
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,940
Speaker 2: to a particular local situation. So Presbyterians have the Westminster

554
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,690
Speaker 2: Standards from the middle of the 17th century, The Dutch

555
00:30:59,730 --> 00:31:04,740
Speaker 2: Reformed have the Belgic Confession. The Swiss and the Hungarian

556
00:31:04,780 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: Reformed have the Second Helvetic Confession and so forth. But

557
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: the Heidelberg Catechism is something that is accepted by virtually

558
00:31:12,020 --> 00:31:14,860
Speaker 2: all Reformed Christians. So that's the one I decided to

559
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,150
Speaker 2: work through. And so I took the text of the

560
00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:21,990
Speaker 2: Tricentenary edition of the Catechism from 1863. I updated it

561
00:31:22,010 --> 00:31:27,460
Speaker 2: to the language to the 21st century. And then I've

562
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:33,610
Speaker 2: tried to explain the catechism in a way that will

563
00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:37,870
Speaker 2: speak to public life. So it's drawing up, I suppose,

564
00:31:37,890 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: the ethical implications of the catechism. And so I did that.

565
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,060
Speaker 2: I wrote most of this manuscript, the vast majority, about

566
00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: 10 years ago. And then I got to working on

567
00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:55,300
Speaker 2: other projects. My First book, Political Visions and Illusions, went

568
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,350
Speaker 2: into a second edition in 2019. It was translated into

569
00:31:59,450 --> 00:32:04,310
Speaker 2: Portuguese and Spanish in that order. My most recent book

570
00:32:04,350 --> 00:32:08,530
Speaker 2: is Citizenship Without Illusions. That was published at the end

571
00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: of 2024. So this book, I don't know exactly when

572
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 2: it's going to come out. I imagine it will be

573
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: within the next year or so. It's called Belonging to God,

574
00:32:22,370 --> 00:32:27,070
Speaker 2: A Catechism's Relevance for Private and Public Life. That's the

575
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:33,060
Speaker 2: working title. Maybe it'll have a slightly different title, but

576
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: that's the working title at the present time. And so

577
00:32:36,140 --> 00:32:38,700
Speaker 2: once that comes out, I will see this as being

578
00:32:39,260 --> 00:32:44,580
Speaker 2: the first volume in a kind of tetralogy. So eventually

579
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,740
Speaker 2: when that comes out, if you want to probe my

580
00:32:48,850 --> 00:32:52,060
Speaker 2: thoughts in depth, you would start with that book. because

581
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:56,260
Speaker 2: that's the faith basics for everything else. And then from there,

582
00:32:56,380 --> 00:33:01,020
Speaker 2: you would read my second book, We Answer to Another, Authority, Office,

583
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,970
Speaker 2: and the Image of God, which expands on the philosophical

584
00:33:06,030 --> 00:33:10,010
Speaker 2: implications of the faith for understanding the nature of authority,

585
00:33:10,330 --> 00:33:12,990
Speaker 2: for understanding the image of God. Then move on to

586
00:33:13,030 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 2: Political Visions and Illusions. Then finally, Citizenship Without Illusions in

587
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:18,469
Speaker 2: the World.

588
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:20,380
Speaker 1: Very cool.

589
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:20,700
Speaker 2: Yeah.

590
00:33:20,740 --> 00:33:24,700
Speaker 3: So circling around back to the foundation, really, because obviously

591
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: you had the Heidelberg Catechism around, so you didn't need

592
00:33:27,460 --> 00:33:29,230
Speaker 3: to write about it. But I think it's really great

593
00:33:29,250 --> 00:33:32,070
Speaker 3: that you're doing it. I also find it interesting that

594
00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:35,930
Speaker 3: it's about private and public faith. Now, if I probe

595
00:33:35,970 --> 00:33:38,550
Speaker 3: that public faith, I mean, it'd be easy to assume, OK,

596
00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:42,810
Speaker 3: that's politics. It's the realm of politics, probably, but it's

597
00:33:42,910 --> 00:33:46,930
Speaker 3: not exhausted by politics.

598
00:33:46,990 --> 00:33:50,570
Speaker 2: True. No, no, no. Public is, you know, sometimes we

599
00:33:50,650 --> 00:33:55,370
Speaker 2: use public and political as synonymous. We'll talk about the

600
00:33:55,450 --> 00:33:59,190
Speaker 2: public square, if you will. Sometimes we think of political life,

601
00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:02,260
Speaker 2: but it's really much wider than that. You know, if

602
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:06,380
Speaker 2: you think about the cinema, if you think about art,

603
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: if you think about charitable activity and so forth, you know,

604
00:34:11,420 --> 00:34:13,780
Speaker 2: all of that could be seen as part of public

605
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,380
Speaker 2: life in the broader sense. If you think about protection

606
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: of the physical environment, that could be seen as part

607
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,290
Speaker 2: of public life as well. And, of course, political life

608
00:34:24,570 --> 00:34:29,029
Speaker 2: touches on all those in some fashion, but public life

609
00:34:29,090 --> 00:34:32,830
Speaker 2: is not exhausted by the political. And I think that's

610
00:34:33,110 --> 00:34:38,290
Speaker 2: something that we need to keep in mind. The final

611
00:34:38,330 --> 00:34:43,150
Speaker 2: chapter in this new book will be called Towards a

612
00:34:43,250 --> 00:34:49,110
Speaker 2: Politics of Gratitude. And I use politics there because I

613
00:34:49,150 --> 00:34:51,890
Speaker 2: think it speaks to people, but I think gratitude is

614
00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:56,189
Speaker 2: something that should characterize the whole of our life before

615
00:34:56,210 --> 00:35:01,750
Speaker 2: the face of God. And I want to contrast that

616
00:35:02,390 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: to an attitude of constant complaint, which I think we

617
00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: have cultivated in our lives, in our public life and

618
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,259
Speaker 2: in our private lives. We come to... life from a

619
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: critical standpoint. I'm the first to admit that because I'm

620
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:25,020
Speaker 2: an academic. I'm paid to be endlessly critical of everything.

621
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: That's right.

622
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,009
Speaker 3: My wife always says, all you academics are the same way.

623
00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:31,390
Speaker 3: You're just inherently disagreeable.

624
00:35:31,989 --> 00:35:38,950
Speaker 2: I know. I'm married to an academic. We encourage that

625
00:35:38,969 --> 00:35:43,830
Speaker 2: in each other. If we're watching a period of film

626
00:35:43,890 --> 00:35:48,150
Speaker 2: on television, you know, and immediately I think, that's anachronistic,

627
00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:50,690
Speaker 2: you know, they didn't have those kind of things back

628
00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: in 79, you know, and, you know, why can't we

629
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: just enjoy something for what it is, but, you know,

630
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 2: I constantly have this critical, you know, my wife and

631
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,700
Speaker 2: I are both the same, we don't get invited to

632
00:36:01,739 --> 00:36:03,430
Speaker 2: many parties, as you might imagine, so.

633
00:36:07,180 --> 00:36:11,540
Speaker 2: So, you know, in writing this, I'm not just speaking

634
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: to other people, I'm speaking to myself as well. You know,

635
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,850
Speaker 2: I'm probably the chief of sinners to quote the Apostle

636
00:36:16,910 --> 00:36:18,350
Speaker 2: Paul in that respect.

637
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:22,469
Speaker 3: You know, when you're talking a little bit about that,

638
00:36:22,730 --> 00:36:27,470
Speaker 3: it makes me think of Deuteronomy 8 and God's warning

639
00:36:27,610 --> 00:36:30,980
Speaker 3: to the Israelites that, And it's not exactly gratitude, but

640
00:36:31,020 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 3: he contrasts this, you know, you're to remember me when

641
00:36:33,380 --> 00:36:35,060
Speaker 3: you go into the land and you're living in the

642
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,410
Speaker 3: midst of all this prosperity that I'm going to give you.

643
00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:40,890
Speaker 3: And you're to do so by keeping my commandments and

644
00:36:40,930 --> 00:36:45,110
Speaker 3: you're to avoid forgetting me. And part of that forgetting

645
00:36:45,290 --> 00:36:48,430
Speaker 3: is they begin to say it is through my own

646
00:36:48,489 --> 00:36:50,850
Speaker 3: power and my own strength that I have gotten this wealth.

647
00:36:51,620 --> 00:36:54,069
Speaker 3: And God says, no, you need to remember that I'm

648
00:36:54,110 --> 00:36:56,350
Speaker 3: the one who gives you the strength. You know, I'm

649
00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:58,010
Speaker 3: the one who gives you this power and this strength

650
00:36:58,050 --> 00:36:59,029
Speaker 3: so you can get this wealth.

651
00:36:59,650 --> 00:37:01,130
Speaker 1: It's this sort of step back.

652
00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:03,430
Speaker 3: And it feels like to me that that always when

653
00:37:03,469 --> 00:37:06,490
Speaker 3: I read that passage, I always think there's a certain

654
00:37:06,530 --> 00:37:09,630
Speaker 3: degree of not only sourcing that we need to recognize,

655
00:37:09,690 --> 00:37:11,969
Speaker 3: like all that we have comes from the Lord, but

656
00:37:12,030 --> 00:37:15,609
Speaker 3: also a sense of gratitude and dependence that we need

657
00:37:15,630 --> 00:37:19,190
Speaker 3: to have. And because God is the one who is

658
00:37:19,310 --> 00:37:20,150
Speaker 3: giving us strength.

659
00:37:20,469 --> 00:37:22,390
Speaker 1: What we need to survive on this world.

660
00:37:22,430 --> 00:37:26,229
Speaker 3: And so I just, that sort of comes to mind

661
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:28,590
Speaker 3: as you're talking through that, that last chapter.

662
00:37:28,610 --> 00:37:31,930
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that, that whole pattern is, it repeats itself

663
00:37:31,950 --> 00:37:33,969
Speaker 2: throughout the whole of history. You know what I mean?

664
00:37:34,130 --> 00:37:36,790
Speaker 2: And you, you see that in the Bible itself, you know, the, the,

665
00:37:36,850 --> 00:37:39,790
Speaker 2: the Israelites would be at peace for a while and

666
00:37:39,810 --> 00:37:41,890
Speaker 2: then they would start to worship idols and so forth.

667
00:37:41,950 --> 00:37:44,330
Speaker 2: And then they would, they would, they would, their, their

668
00:37:44,450 --> 00:37:46,830
Speaker 2: enemies would attack them again. And then they would cry

669
00:37:46,870 --> 00:37:50,790
Speaker 2: to God for, for, um, um, um, for, for deliverance,

670
00:37:50,810 --> 00:37:52,430
Speaker 2: he would send a delivery, you know, you see that

671
00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:54,250
Speaker 2: in the book of judges, but you also see that

672
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:57,450
Speaker 2: in the, um, in the, throughout the, the, the Kings

673
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:59,810
Speaker 2: as well, you know, through the, through the, the divided

674
00:37:59,830 --> 00:38:03,430
Speaker 2: monarchy period as well. And I think, I think we've

675
00:38:03,450 --> 00:38:06,260
Speaker 2: seen that in our own history as well. You know,

676
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,820
Speaker 2: fewer people go to church now than they did maybe

677
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: a hundred years ago or, or 150 years ago. And, but, but,

678
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,790
Speaker 2: you know, and, and, the sorts of things that we

679
00:38:17,830 --> 00:38:20,069
Speaker 2: experience now, the fact that we are talking to each

680
00:38:20,110 --> 00:38:23,850
Speaker 2: other across great distances, seeing each other, you know, I

681
00:38:23,890 --> 00:38:26,290
Speaker 2: have this computer sitting in front of me and I'm,

682
00:38:26,860 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: you know, all of the things that, you know, my

683
00:38:29,020 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: work now with Global Scholars depends on the sort of

684
00:38:32,660 --> 00:38:35,500
Speaker 2: communications that we're doing right now. You know, it'd be

685
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,580
Speaker 2: so easy to think, you know, we human beings are

686
00:38:38,739 --> 00:38:41,379
Speaker 2: really amazing. You know, look what we're able to do.

687
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,060
Speaker 2: And then we start to rely on ourselves and we

688
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,100
Speaker 2: start to forget where everything came from, you know, in the,

689
00:38:48,260 --> 00:38:50,730
Speaker 2: in the immediate aftermath of the second world war, there

690
00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:53,650
Speaker 2: was a bit of a religious revival in the United States,

691
00:38:54,170 --> 00:38:56,930
Speaker 2: you know, part, I think the Billy Graham crusades were

692
00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:59,129
Speaker 2: part of it and so forth. You know, I think even,

693
00:38:59,250 --> 00:39:01,150
Speaker 2: I think even the queen, you know, the late queen

694
00:39:01,590 --> 00:39:05,300
Speaker 2: was influenced in some positively by, uh, by Billy Graham

695
00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:07,180
Speaker 2: and other, other people at this point. And you could

696
00:39:07,219 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: see that in her Christmas messages, you could see her

697
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,980
Speaker 2: faith coming out. Um, I don't think that her, her

698
00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: heirs and successors, uh, carry the same faith that she had,

699
00:39:16,980 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: you know. But we live amidst this amazing stuff that

700
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,730
Speaker 2: our predecessors would have regarded as utterly miraculous. And we

701
00:39:26,770 --> 00:39:29,569
Speaker 2: forget where it comes from because we think, boy, we

702
00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: are great. Look at what we are capable of doing.

703
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: And then we start to lose our dependence on God

704
00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: until some catastrophe or something happens to pull us back

705
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: to where we ought to be. I don't know what's

706
00:39:45,660 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: going to happen. Something may happen in the future. Maybe

707
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,980
Speaker 2: the pandemic was part of that. Maybe the current conflicts

708
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: in the Middle East, Ukraine and so forth will be

709
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,900
Speaker 2: part of that. But yeah, we very easily lose a

710
00:40:01,940 --> 00:40:02,820
Speaker 2: sense of gratitude.

711
00:40:03,969 --> 00:40:08,310
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really, again, as you're talking there, what came

712
00:40:08,350 --> 00:40:12,650
Speaker 3: to mind was Albert Borgman wrote this book, Technology and

713
00:40:12,670 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 3: the Character of Contemporary Culture, I think is the name

714
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,109
Speaker 3: of it, although I always get that title wrong. but

715
00:40:18,260 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 3: one of the things he talks about in there is

716
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:26,700
Speaker 3: he says technology will rule by cultivating these inconspicuous patterns,

717
00:40:28,260 --> 00:40:31,970
Speaker 3: these inconspicuous patterns in our lives that, that we then.

718
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,430
Speaker 1: Just take as givens is the implication.

719
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:37,250
Speaker 3: Like these are just things that we have in front

720
00:40:37,290 --> 00:40:39,489
Speaker 3: of us and they become part of our warp and

721
00:40:39,530 --> 00:40:43,230
Speaker 3: woof and we all, they almost disappear from view. And,

722
00:40:43,790 --> 00:40:46,090
Speaker 3: and I think that's like, I think that's what happens

723
00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:48,130
Speaker 3: in a lot of our lives, not just the technology.

724
00:40:48,170 --> 00:40:50,390
Speaker 1: The technology is a part of it. But I think

725
00:40:50,430 --> 00:40:53,299
Speaker 1: that we get used to things being a certain way.

726
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:54,299
Speaker 2: That's right.

727
00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 3: And we start to forget that, no, there's someone holding

728
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:01,100
Speaker 3: this together. There are other people who are holding these

729
00:41:01,140 --> 00:41:05,020
Speaker 3: things together, right? There are anonymous folks who are doing

730
00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:08,009
Speaker 3: various things to keep this video stream.

731
00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:08,589
Speaker 1: Going, right?

732
00:41:08,610 --> 00:41:09,410
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.

733
00:41:10,420 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: But there's also a God that stands behind this who

734
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 3: is sustaining us and providing us with everything that we

735
00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:18,739
Speaker 3: need to do life in the way that we.

736
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: Are right now.

737
00:41:19,460 --> 00:41:23,259
Speaker 3: And that is that sort of– I can understand how

738
00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:25,890
Speaker 3: it's easy for us to forget how to be grateful

739
00:41:25,930 --> 00:41:26,430
Speaker 3: in the moment.

740
00:41:26,860 --> 00:41:28,110
Speaker 1: It really is hard.

741
00:41:28,610 --> 00:41:31,010
Speaker 2: It is, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think these teenagers

742
00:41:31,210 --> 00:41:38,469
Speaker 2: who simply depend on these phones, which– we didn't have

743
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:40,170
Speaker 2: when I was growing up, you know, but then I think,

744
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:41,870
Speaker 2: I go back and further, I think about something like

745
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:44,630
Speaker 2: flush toilets, which we take for granted, you know, and

746
00:41:44,670 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: in the absence of those, you know, you had waves

747
00:41:47,739 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: and waves of cholera epidemic sweeping through major cities in

748
00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:53,500
Speaker 2: the 19th century, you know, and before that, and we

749
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:56,620
Speaker 2: take for granted that we have plumbing systems and our

750
00:41:56,660 --> 00:41:59,660
Speaker 2: waste is flushed out of our homes, you know, where

751
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,589
Speaker 2: we're living in healthy environments, you know, and it's, you know,

752
00:42:03,610 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm aware, my maternal grandparents both of them

753
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 2: died when they were the age that I am now.

754
00:42:14,060 --> 00:42:19,140
Speaker 2: I'm in much better shape than they were. They were

755
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,100
Speaker 2: born half a century before I was. I'm in much

756
00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:24,900
Speaker 2: better shape now than they were at the same stage

757
00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: in life that I am now. It's not that I'm

758
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 2: particularly virtuous in that respect, but they were growing up

759
00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:39,910
Speaker 2: in times when they had outhouses of during the two

760
00:42:39,950 --> 00:42:42,549
Speaker 2: world wars and so forth, the Great Depression and so forth.

761
00:42:42,890 --> 00:42:45,129
Speaker 2: They had dentures by the time they were in their

762
00:42:45,810 --> 00:42:49,660
Speaker 2: middle age and so forth, which I can't even imagine myself.

763
00:42:50,540 --> 00:42:54,980
Speaker 2: And it's something that I think all of us have

764
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 2: to learn to be grateful for what we have been

765
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: given and for what even through history we have been

766
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:07,489
Speaker 2: given down to the present time. from our predecessors and

767
00:43:07,530 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: ultimately from God himself.

768
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 3: You know, when I think about the four-part work that

769
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,660
Speaker 3: you talked through, that tetrad that you've developed, and then

770
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:19,980
Speaker 3: just some of the things you said earlier on in

771
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,339
Speaker 3: this episode, it seems to me that part of what

772
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,770
Speaker 3: we need to do in order to really participate well

773
00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:31,339
Speaker 3: in politics is focus on our own formation, discipleship, whatever

774
00:43:31,390 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 3: it is that we would, you know, fill in the

775
00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:38,580
Speaker 3: blank and that. But there's a sense in which everything

776
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 3: we've talked about is going to lead us back to

777
00:43:40,780 --> 00:43:44,819
Speaker 3: something that is deeply theologically formative in us, that we

778
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,420
Speaker 3: need this sort of theological disposition, an underlying theological sense

779
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,330
Speaker 3: of the way the world works. And that these are

780
00:43:52,350 --> 00:43:55,150
Speaker 3: the things that we want to have this sort of pre-reflective,

781
00:43:55,210 --> 00:44:00,870
Speaker 3: instinctual sort of move toward. Obviously, we cultivate disciplines for

782
00:44:00,890 --> 00:44:03,049
Speaker 3: that too, but we really want to be living in

783
00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:06,030
Speaker 3: the world in the presence of God, as you said earlier.

784
00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:08,350
Speaker 3: And it just feels to me like that's the sort

785
00:44:08,370 --> 00:44:11,410
Speaker 3: of trajectory that maybe we're missing. Like we're coming to

786
00:44:11,469 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 3: this as political animals and trying to integrate our faith

787
00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:18,790
Speaker 3: into it when really we need to be shaped and

788
00:44:18,969 --> 00:44:22,110
Speaker 3: formed in the image of Christ to whatever degree we

789
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:25,629
Speaker 3: can do that, and then holding that shape as we

790
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:27,609
Speaker 3: participate in the political realm.

791
00:44:28,030 --> 00:44:31,910
Speaker 2: That's right, yeah. And I think that's why the cultivation

792
00:44:31,930 --> 00:44:35,170
Speaker 2: of spiritual disciplines, like reading through the scriptures on a

793
00:44:35,210 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 2: regular basis, praying through the Psalms. I pray through the

794
00:44:39,340 --> 00:44:42,660
Speaker 2: Psalms on a monthly basis, following the pattern that's in

795
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,460
Speaker 2: the Book of Common Prayer. And I think those are

796
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:53,770
Speaker 2: the kinds of disciplines that we need. in order to

797
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: be in a posture of radical receptivity to God's Spirit

798
00:45:00,180 --> 00:45:02,660
Speaker 2: and to what He has for us in life. I

799
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:05,860
Speaker 2: don't think there's any substitute for that. There's no substitute

800
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: for that. And that also includes weekly church attendance as well. Yeah.

801
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,549
Speaker 3: Really getting into that Christian cadence, we might call it, of...

802
00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 3: You know, sort of how is it that we continually

803
00:45:17,540 --> 00:45:20,700
Speaker 3: engage with God, with other Christians, so that we're shaped

804
00:45:20,739 --> 00:45:23,950
Speaker 3: and formed in the right ways? And then maybe some

805
00:45:23,969 --> 00:45:26,530
Speaker 3: of these political questions, I don't think they get any easier.

806
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:27,649
Speaker 2: No, no.

807
00:45:27,730 --> 00:45:31,609
Speaker 3: But we may very well orient ourselves differently to them,

808
00:45:31,830 --> 00:45:33,790
Speaker 3: which I think is actually pretty crucial.

809
00:45:34,670 --> 00:45:39,460
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And I think that's, you know,

810
00:45:40,219 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: if the faith basics are straightened out, and if we

811
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:49,430
Speaker 2: take the attitude that we cannot simply accept the faux

812
00:45:49,530 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 2: redemptive narratives offered to us by the political ideologies, which

813
00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:57,580
Speaker 2: is the subject of my first book, Political Visions and Illusions.

814
00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: If we recognize that we have to use spiritual discernment

815
00:46:01,860 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 2: in coming to those particular ideologies, then that's going to

816
00:46:05,300 --> 00:46:08,300
Speaker 2: change the posture that we have towards life in general,

817
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,910
Speaker 2: certainly political life. Yeah.

818
00:46:12,739 --> 00:46:14,540
Speaker 1: Well, David, it's always a pleasure to have you on

819
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,380
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'll just leave it with this.

820
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 3: Any final thoughts, maybe even from your work on the

821
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:25,370
Speaker 3: catechism and stuff, but any final thoughts for folks who

822
00:46:25,390 --> 00:46:29,690
Speaker 3: are entering a political season in the United States, Christians

823
00:46:29,710 --> 00:46:31,930
Speaker 3: who are entering a political season in the United States,

824
00:46:31,989 --> 00:46:33,870
Speaker 3: any final thoughts or encouragement to them?

825
00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:38,550
Speaker 2: Well, I would encourage you to read Citizenship Without Illusions,

826
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:41,049
Speaker 2: which is my most recent book that came out about

827
00:46:41,090 --> 00:46:44,069
Speaker 2: a year and a half ago. I could wish that

828
00:46:44,989 --> 00:46:49,110
Speaker 2: Christian universities, and there are over 100 Christian universities in

829
00:46:49,150 --> 00:46:52,870
Speaker 2: North America, that they would use this book or something

830
00:46:52,950 --> 00:46:59,330
Speaker 2: similar to really educate their students, undergraduate students, about citizenship.

831
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,779
Speaker 2: I do think that that book could also be used

832
00:47:02,860 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: for adult Sunday school classes, possibly an upper-level secondary school

833
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,290
Speaker 2: classes as well, to get people to thinking about the

834
00:47:13,390 --> 00:47:15,509
Speaker 2: issues that I raised in that book. You know, the

835
00:47:15,550 --> 00:47:20,220
Speaker 2: book probably, you know, I try to offer answers, but,

836
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:22,779
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately I've tried to give people things to

837
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,260
Speaker 2: chew on and things to talk about and to discuss

838
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: is how are we going to go about when it

839
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,700
Speaker 2: comes time to vote? How do we vote in a

840
00:47:29,739 --> 00:47:32,970
Speaker 2: way that's spiritually discerning? You know, I don't offer any

841
00:47:33,010 --> 00:47:36,170
Speaker 2: hard and fast answers to that, but if people could

842
00:47:36,210 --> 00:47:38,410
Speaker 2: even start to think about that and to discuss that

843
00:47:38,750 --> 00:47:42,110
Speaker 2: with their fellow Christians, especially those who might think differently

844
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:44,660
Speaker 2: from themselves, then that would be a good place to start.

845
00:47:46,010 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 3: Well, we'll have the book linked to, uh, in the

846
00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:51,339
Speaker 3: show notes. Uh, I encourage people to read it as well.

847
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it. Um, it was actually nice to

848
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,259
Speaker 3: revisit it before we got into this interview. Um, I

849
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 3: know we didn't talk through it like the same way

850
00:47:57,980 --> 00:48:00,100
Speaker 3: we did the first time, but, um, it was really

851
00:48:00,140 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: good to revisit it, David. And I think you did

852
00:48:01,620 --> 00:48:05,290
Speaker 3: a great job on it. Um, IVP gives us a 20%

853
00:48:05,290 --> 00:48:07,549
Speaker 3: discount on those books. So if you click the link,

854
00:48:07,650 --> 00:48:10,169
Speaker 3: buy it off the IVP site, there's actually a code

855
00:48:10,190 --> 00:48:12,390
Speaker 3: in the show description you can use and get 20%

856
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:12,890
Speaker 3: off the book.

857
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Speaker 1: So I'd encourage you to go check that out.

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Speaker 3: And other than that, David, hopefully I'll have you back

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00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 3: after your Catechism book is published and we can talk again.

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Speaker 1: So always enjoy having you on the show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I enjoy talking with you, James. So yes. Okay.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: Well, take care, everybody. And we'll see you on the

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Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian.