1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: This is Donna Jones and you are listening to That's 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 2: just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've ever been 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow, that 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: was just what I needed. You know how life giving 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: that can be, Well, that's what this podcast is all about. 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: We're women who want to know, love, and follow God 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just how to 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: do it. So each week we'll talk about what following 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: God looks like in the midst of daily demands and 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 2: crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what we need, 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: it's actually. 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: Exactly what we need. 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: Hey, my friend, Welcome to the podcast. I have such 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,279 Speaker 2: a great interview for you today. Let me just tell 16 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: you you haven't heard an interview like this, and if 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: you have, it's probably been a very long time. But 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure this is going to be new to 19 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 2: most of you and I I loved this conversation and 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: I know that you will too. Before we get to 21 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: our conversation with today's guest, I wanted to say a 22 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: special thank you to everyone who has liked this podcast, 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: rated this podcast, subscribed to this podcast, shared this podcast. 24 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: If you have done one of those things. 25 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: Thank you. That is how more people find out about 26 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 2: this podcast. And we need more Christian content out in 27 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: the world. So if you have not done one of 28 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: those four things, liked it, reviewed it, rated it, shared it, 29 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: would you take just a few moments and do that today. 30 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: And I'm just going to say thank you in advance. Well, 31 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 2: let me tell you a little bit about today's guest. 32 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 2: Her name is Heather Rice Minus and Heather is the 33 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: president and CEO of Prison Fellowship. After Heather earned her 34 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: jd from George Mason University's antonin Scalia's Law School, she 35 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: became a member of the Virginia State Bar. Heather's also 36 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: a member of the American Enterprise Institute's Leadership Network and 37 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: Faith and Public Life Ideas Counsel and she's It's a 38 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: Coolson Fellow. Heather makes her home in Southwest Washington, d C. 39 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: With her husband and her two girls. So help me 40 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: welcome my new friend, Heather Rice Minus. Well, Heather, welcome 41 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: to the podcast. 42 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Donna, it's so good to 43 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: be here. 44 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: I was telling you before we hit record, I am 45 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: so excited to have you on this show because you 46 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: have this really unique job. You are the president and 47 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: CEO of Prison Fellowship. Okay, Heather, how in the world 48 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 2: did you end up in that role? 49 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: Oh? 50 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 4: Goodness, A windy road, not one I expected it all. Essentially, 51 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 4: I wanted to go to law school and actually work 52 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 4: on adoption and foster care policy was my plan. And 53 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 4: I had actually spent a year living abroad in East 54 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 4: Africa before going to law school and got a chance 55 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 4: to volunteer with some of the kids I hope to 56 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 4: be able to help in the future, and so. 57 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 3: Just had this vision for that. 58 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 4: And I start my first year of law school, Donna, 59 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 4: and I'm taking contracts and torts and just trying to 60 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 4: tell myself why it is I'm putting myself through this 61 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 4: grueling experience and learning you know, some things I don't 62 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 4: really think I'm going to need necessarily to work on 63 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 4: policy and so forth in the future. But I'm not 64 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 4: a queer, and so I'm just like, Okay, you know 65 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 4: what to get me through these next few years, let 66 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 4: me just try and find a part time role where 67 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 4: I can use my skills and envision the kinds of 68 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 4: things I want to be doing when I have this degree. 69 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 4: And so I apply to several roles in the child 70 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 4: welfare space. The lord doesn't open any doors. I end 71 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 4: up getting this position with a small nonprofit and to 72 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 4: first help them with some events, but eventually they open 73 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 4: up a portfolio into prison conditions, and so they ask 74 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 4: if I take it on in research and do some 75 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 4: government affairs work in that space. And so the more 76 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 4: I start looking into it, the more my eyes were 77 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 4: just opened. I couldn't believe, as someone having grown up 78 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 4: in the suburbs outside of DC, how many people we 79 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 4: have in prison? How much longer we incarcerate people for 80 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 4: crimes where the sentences were much shorter, you know, just 81 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 4: decades before, for the same kind of crimes. I saw 82 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 4: this Donna, I just felt like I, as a believer, 83 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 4: could not look away. And it was in the course 84 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 4: of doing that work that I actually started working in 85 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 4: coalition with Prison Fellowship's public policy team. And so, having 86 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 4: grown passionate about this issue through that, and then having 87 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 4: gotten to no Prison Fellowship and its history and influence, 88 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 4: I just thought, wouldn't it be amazing to work there? 89 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 4: And so I applied to a role on their public 90 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 4: policy team. After I did. 91 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: Finish my law school degree. 92 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: You plowed through got it done. 93 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 4: And so my first role at Prison Fellowship over thirteen 94 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 4: years ago now was on our government affairs team, and 95 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 4: it's just been a wild and joyful ride ever since. 96 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: Wow, what, okay. 97 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: Isn't that so interesting how something that you didn't ever 98 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: anticipate ended up being your calling in life, and how 99 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 2: the closed doors were part of that, and then that 100 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: open door with that small nonprofit. Gosh, it's so amazing 101 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 2: how God works in ways we don't anticipate. 102 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 3: At all exactly exactly. God is so good. God is 103 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: so good. 104 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: Gosh okay, which is such a good reminder for those 105 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: you know, I'm just thinking right now, somebody might be listening, 106 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: They're like, oh Lord, why are you closing all these doors? 107 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: And look at the doors you are opening, like they're 108 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: not what I really wanted. Your story is such an 109 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: encouragement to all of us, really. 110 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 4: Exactly, and I think sometimes God will show you the 111 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 4: full circle moments, right Because even for me foster care 112 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: and adoption policy, there's actually such an interconnection between for example, 113 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 4: children and the incarcerated to the prison system, much more 114 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 4: likely to end up in the prison system, and that 115 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 4: still remains a personal passion. My youngest daughter is adopted 116 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 4: from the foster care system, and so God has just 117 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 4: been able to show me how those personal passions there 118 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 4: is an interconnection to the work that I do. And 119 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 4: sometimes the Lord might open a door in your personal 120 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 4: ministry that doesn't end up being your professional And so 121 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 4: hopefully that's an encouragement to someone listening is just trust. 122 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 4: Trust that there's a picture of the Lord is painting 123 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 4: for you on the other side. 124 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: Right, That's so good. 125 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 2: Okay, So I before we met here, I have been 126 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: long from the Prison Fellowship. But I'm guessing that not 127 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 2: everybody listening knows about Prison Fellowship and years celebrating your 128 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: fiftieth anniversary, Prison Fellowship has been around for fifty years. 129 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: So tell us for somebody that doesn't really know what 130 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: is it? How did it start? Give us a little background? 131 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 4: Sure, So, Prison Fellowship is the nation's largest Christian nonprofit 132 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 4: serving people in prison, their families, those coming home from prison. 133 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 4: And we're also, as I mentioned, a leading advocate but 134 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 4: for justice reform. We were founded fifty years ago in 135 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy six, and a pretty amazing inception story in 136 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 4: our founder with the late Chuck Coulson and depending on 137 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 4: probably the age of your listeners. That name may or 138 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 4: may not ring a bell, but if it doesn't. Chuck 139 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 4: Coulson was special counsel to President Nixon and got implicated 140 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 4: in the Watergate scandal. And it was actually before he 141 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 4: went to prison, which some people don't realize that he 142 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 4: became a believer. 143 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: He actually had a friend. 144 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 4: You know, all of this stuff is happening in the 145 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 4: public arena, a lot of shame, a lot of chaos. 146 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 4: He's going through trial, but a friend of his, a 147 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 4: business friend, had become a believer, and he was just 148 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 4: really curious as to how this tough businessman had come 149 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 4: to follow Jesus and goes to his home and asks 150 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 4: him about it. And as he leaves after hearing his testimony, 151 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 4: and he had read actually an excerpt of Mere Christianity 152 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 4: by C. S. Lewis Tuchuk, he can't get out of 153 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 4: his friend's driveway before breaking down in tears and giving 154 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 4: over his life to Jesus. And so he was a believer. 155 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 4: And then he had gets sentenced to go to federal 156 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 4: prison as a result of the implication with the Watergate 157 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 4: scandal for eight months. And in prison he also meets 158 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 4: these men inside who are followers of Jesus as well, 159 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 4: and they see some pretty miraculous things happen as they're 160 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 4: praying together. I don't want to give it all away 161 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,679 Speaker 4: because hopefully someone will go get born again, which tells 162 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 4: his story in full so much better than I could. 163 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 4: But when he gets out of prison after that time, 164 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 4: he feels this calling to start the ministry, and so 165 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 4: just you know, a few short years later, in nineteen 166 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 4: seventy six, he started the ministry and it's grown substantially 167 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 4: since then to reach so many families, so many lives 168 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 4: that have been transformed, so many justice reforms that have 169 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 4: been passed as a result of the impact of this 170 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 4: fifty year legacy that you know, we hope and pray. 171 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 3: Still has another fifty years, and that the Lord's going 172 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: to use. 173 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: I just that I get chills when I think of 174 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: that story. The man that was in the President's office 175 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: ends up in prison, and then that really becomes its 176 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: greatest calling in life. I mean, it's a totally upside 177 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: down kingdom, right, Okay. And one of the things I 178 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: love about Prison Fellowship is number one, Like you said, 179 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: it's a Christian nonprofit and your advocates for the incarcerated 180 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: and their families, because you know, we've kind of forget 181 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: that when someone is incarcerated, then that impacts the wives, husbands, 182 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: the children, it affects the whole family system. So tell 183 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: us some of your favorite things about what you do 184 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: and how you've seen it be really helpful in some 185 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: practical way. 186 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 4: Sure, and you know, I'm going to start with just 187 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 4: sharing practical ways I've seen it be helpful to my 188 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 4: own family. As you mentioned, you know, when someone's incarcerated, 189 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 4: it's not just them doing time, it's the whole family 190 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: who is standing still and often losing a source of income. 191 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: There's loneliness. 192 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 4: And so Prison Fellowship's largest program is Prison Fellowship Angeltry, 193 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 4: and it serves the children of incarcerated parents, and over 194 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 4: the course of fifty years we have served over twelve 195 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 4: million children with an incarcerated parent. The way the program 196 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: starts is actually with the incarcerated parent in an application. 197 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 4: We invite incarcerated parents to sign up their child to 198 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 4: receive a gift at Christmas on their behalf, and when 199 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 4: they fill out the application, they can actually write a 200 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 4: message that will then get a fixed to the Christmas gift, 201 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 4: and I will speak from my own family's experience. I 202 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 4: have a nephew, a grown nephew who's incarcerated. He actually 203 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 4: stood up in our wedding and years later ended up 204 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 4: in prison. He has children and a few of them 205 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 4: live close to the DC area, and they receive, you know, 206 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 4: a gift on behalf of their dad who's behind bars, 207 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 4: and it lets them know not only are you remembered 208 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 4: by your dad, but you're remembered by your heavenly father. 209 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 4: And we rely on five thousand plus churches need more. 210 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 4: So if you're listening, maybe this is your calling into 211 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 4: the space. So I have your church sign up to 212 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 4: take on Angel Tree kids right in your neighborhood, and 213 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 4: you get the chance to deliver this gift to them 214 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 4: on behalf of their parent. 215 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: Prison. 216 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: Fellowship also provides opportunities throughout the year as we hope 217 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 4: the churches who we partner with do too, to stay 218 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 4: not just make this about a present, but make this 219 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 4: about a ministry of presence to that family. And so 220 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 4: for example, we do sports camps and select cities, and 221 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 4: I've gotten to take my great nieces and nephews who 222 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 4: are the Angel Tree kids. I was mentioning to go 223 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 4: to these sports camps, and I can remember the very 224 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 4: first time taking my niece, who is about seven, and 225 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 4: she's just sitting there and she's listening to the testimony 226 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 4: of the speaker we have who his mom had been incarcerated. 227 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 4: He was actually an NBA player, actually went to prison 228 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 4: himself for point shape. I'm at one point, and so 229 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 4: it stares like his radical testimony, and I can just 230 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 4: see her sitting there listening to him, and then like 231 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 4: looking around at the kids as he's talking to them. 232 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 4: I think it's like clicking for her. Everyone here also 233 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: has a mom or dad in prison. I've never experienced 234 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 4: that before, and I think it was just like this 235 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 4: weight off her shoulders of like I can talk about this, 236 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 4: I don't have to be ashamed. And so she makes 237 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 4: a beeline for the speaker, Brandon, and she just says 238 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 4: to him, my dad's in prison, and he just you know, 239 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 4: ask gir well, how does that make you feel? And 240 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 4: she's like, makes me feel pretty sad, And so they 241 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 4: just start talking and he just is you know, speaking 242 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 4: truth into her and how she's going to change her 243 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 4: family tree, and he's like you want to pray? She's 244 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 4: like yeah, oh, pray, and so she just starts praying 245 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 4: and she praised this old lady prayer out of the 246 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 4: mouth of this seven year old little girl, and it 247 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 4: actually transformed his life. Like he decided from that point on, 248 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 4: you know, this is what I want to be doing, 249 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 4: you know, more in my life. And so that's you know, 250 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 4: the power of Angel Tree. And then you know, on 251 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 4: the other end, that's to our family. But we've also 252 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 4: become Angltry volunteers through my church here in d C. 253 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 4: And probably five plus years ago, we got to deliver 254 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 4: to a family just five minutes down the street from 255 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: where we live in southeast d C. We're in a 256 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 4: part of the city that I think a lot of 257 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 4: time gets forgotten. Most of our Angel Tree kids are 258 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 4: concentrated here in the DC area. So we go to 259 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 4: deliver and we end up just building a friendship with 260 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 4: this family and so we've had them over for holidays 261 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 4: and have been able to just celebrate milestones with them, 262 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 4: and they have been a blessing to my family. My 263 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 4: little girls love these older girls, and a couple of 264 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 4: years ago, after getting to know them all this time, 265 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 4: I just realized, you know, they've never they talked to 266 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 4: their dad who's in prison, who signed them up for 267 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 4: the program every week, but they've never they never visit, 268 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 4: and he's in North Carolina. And I think it's not 269 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 4: because I don't want to. I think it's because, you know, 270 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 4: they don't have a car. The logistics of it, living 271 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 4: paycheck by paycheck, right, And so I just end up 272 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 4: asking them, Hey, if all the logistics were taken care of, 273 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 4: would you want to go see your dad? And all 274 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 4: said yes, And so we got a minivan and I 275 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 4: drove down with this family and you know, really grateful 276 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 4: to the ward and there gave us special permission to 277 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 4: go and have this meeting with their dad, and he 278 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 4: got to see his girls, who in one of them 279 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 4: who's now twenty one and has a little girl of 280 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 4: her own, so he brought his granddaughter. We just talked 281 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 4: and talked for two hours, and I got to see 282 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 4: this beautiful reunion between these family members and they had 283 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 4: not seen each other in fifteen years. 284 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: Oh you're kidding, fifteen years in person. 285 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 4: And you know, I was actually able to share it 286 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 4: because it's just the Lord how he works. That day 287 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 4: happened to be the one year anniversary of my own 288 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 4: dad passing away, and actually, North Carolina is where my 289 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 4: dad lived and passed away, and so I just and 290 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 4: actually I got to my dad passed away with cancer, 291 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 4: so we knew he was going to go home to 292 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 4: be with Jesus. And I got to plan his service 293 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 4: with him, and he wanted and he donations people wanted 294 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 4: to give at his celebration of life service to go 295 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 4: to prison Fellowship angeletry in North Carolina. 296 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, are you kidding. 297 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 4: No, It's like on this one year anniversary of him 298 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 4: passing away, I didn't even share it till the end 299 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 4: of their meeting. I just wanted to be about them, 300 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 4: and I just said, you know, I just want to 301 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 4: thank you all for letting me part of this day. 302 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 4: And you don't know this, but this is the day 303 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 4: my dad passed away one year ago. And I've been 304 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 4: dreading this day. But I know he would have wanted 305 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 4: nothing more than for me to be a piece of 306 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 4: the puzzle of reuniting you with your two daughters. 307 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: My dad had two daughters. 308 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 4: And I just want you to know my dad loved 309 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 4: Jesus and he would want nothing more than for me 310 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 4: to let you know, like Jesus loves you, He loves 311 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 4: your girls. And since that moment, I think we've become 312 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 4: even more close to that family. And they've actually some 313 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 4: of the girls have actually started coming to our church. 314 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: And not only Donna did they start coming to our church, 315 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 4: but I remember a month after I'd invited them to 316 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 4: come to church. It was like I didn't even have 317 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 4: to keep inviting them, they just kept coming. I walk 318 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 4: in to pick up my girls from kids Church one Sunday, 319 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 4: and the youngest daughter, who's now in high school, is volunteering. 320 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: In kids Church. 321 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 4: We're big believers here at Prison Fellowship that like, we 322 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 4: don't do ministry two people. We get to do ministry 323 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 4: with people. That's our mission. And it's this beautiful thing. 324 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 4: As you see the people, you think God is putting 325 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 4: on your heart for you to do ministry too. He 326 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 4: will show you now they are going to minister to you. 327 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 4: There is this two way street, this mutuality ministry, and 328 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 4: I get to be, you know, the privileged recipient of 329 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 4: it in the work that I do. 330 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Heather, what a story. 331 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: As you were talking, a couple of things. 332 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: Came to my mind. 333 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: Number one, when you actually said that you have a 334 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: family member who's incarcerated. And Heather, I mentioned to you 335 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: before we hit record that my husband's a pastor, so 336 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: we're lead to church and I am really surprised at 337 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: how many people have family members or loved ones that 338 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: are incarcerated. But here's the thing, no one really talks 339 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: about it because there's so much shame. Now I will know, 340 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: or my husband will know, or like our pastoral staff, 341 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: but people won't tell the other people in their small group. 342 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: Because there's shame. Right. 343 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: But there's a lot of people, a lot of people, 344 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: and it's kind of the forgotten segment of our society 345 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: because there is so much shame around it. And then 346 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: as a result of that, then they end up beingcoming 347 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: kind of forgotten people. And that's what I love about 348 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: Prison Fellowship. It like takes the people that like they 349 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: don't even know how to articulate I'm dying here because 350 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: of what has happened in my family, Like you reach 351 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: out to them and you help them when they can't 352 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: even articulate it themselves. I just think that is so 353 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: so beautiful. I just love everything about this. We're going 354 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: to take a quick break and when we come back, 355 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: I have so many more questions for you. So, Heather, 356 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: you're leaving this organization Prison Fellowship. We were just talking 357 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: about the shame that goes along with being a family 358 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: member of somebody who's incarcerated or even the person that's incarcerated. Oftentimes, 359 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: there's a lot of misconceptions around this. What are some 360 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: of the misconceptions that you have encountered and how can 361 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: we counterbalance some of those? 362 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 4: Well, okay, two that come to mind as you ask that, 363 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 4: donn it For one, you mentioned you know, people don't 364 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 4: really think that this is as pervasive a problem it 365 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 4: is because people are too ashamed to talk it. Okay, 366 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 4: A recent study shows that one and two Americans have 367 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 4: or had a family member impacted by incarceration. And so 368 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 4: if you're a pastor, if you're a ministry leader listening 369 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 4: to this today and you're like, well, I don't really 370 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 4: think anyone's going through that at my church. Oh, they are, 371 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 4: statistically like half of them had. And for me it's 372 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 4: a nephew and so maybe doesn't feel like you know 373 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 4: your immediate family or what have you. But as we 374 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 4: kind of think about it over time, it's everyone, and 375 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 4: you know, I we're small group leaders at our church, 376 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 4: and I can remember there was one people know where 377 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 4: I work, and so that opens a door for people 378 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 4: to maybe feel a little bit more venerable to talk about, 379 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 4: you know, what's going on. And I can remember a 380 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 4: week where, you know, only one other couple showed up 381 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 4: and it was just so god because you know, this 382 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 4: very career driven, prominent couple, the husband had actually just 383 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 4: had a dui and the wife is furious and she 384 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 4: doesn't want anyone else to know, right, But like because 385 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 4: it was me and my husband, like they were able 386 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 4: to share, we were able to pray with them, and 387 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 4: they're doing great now, right. But it's like you would 388 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 4: never guess this person has a criminal record, right, And 389 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 4: there's so much there and that's why I think it's 390 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 4: been so freeing. One of the things Prison Fellowship has 391 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 4: started doing is almost a decade ago, we started celebrating 392 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 4: April a Second Chance Month to raise awareness about the 393 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 4: seventy million Americans who have a criminal record and to 394 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 4: invite churches to be a place of welcome for those 395 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 4: who are experiencing incarceration or have and their families, and 396 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 4: to also be part of unlocking second chances. Because when 397 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 4: people get home from prison, it can be really hard 398 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 4: for them to find a job, it can be really 399 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 4: hard to find housing, and just the general stigma that 400 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 4: comes with it, and how freeing is it if you're 401 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 4: someone who has had a family member who's been incarcerated 402 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 4: or is or has a record, and you go to 403 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 4: church and you hear today is second Chance Sunday, and 404 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 4: we are going to be talking about the second chance 405 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 4: we've all received in Christ. And by the way, church, 406 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 4: I want you to think about the people who have 407 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 4: a criminal record, which is probably way more than you know, 408 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 4: and let's think about how we apply our faith to 409 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 4: this group of people. Right, And you may well just 410 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 4: sort of acknowledging in the pews that you're probably sitting 411 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 4: here and you are that person or you know that person. 412 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 4: I've had churches who have done this across the country, Donna, 413 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 4: and some of them have chosen to do alter calls, 414 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 4: and the alter call is to come up for prayer 415 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 4: if you are going through this, And I have seen 416 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 4: almost the whole church go. 417 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: Up, and it's just this moment of tears of just. 418 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 4: Realizing, like I don't have to carry this shame alone, right, 419 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 4: I don't need to be ashamed I can actually walk 420 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 4: in on what God's trying to teach me through this moment. 421 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 4: That's one that comes to mind is just that misconception 422 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 4: of you know, this doesn't affect many people. Oh it does, 423 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 4: and so let's talk about it, and let's talk about 424 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 4: the Lord hads to say about it. The second one 425 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 4: I would say is just this us and them mentality 426 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 4: that a lot of people have, thinking that the people 427 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 4: in prison are just so different than I am. And 428 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 4: all the time what I hear back from our staff 429 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 4: are volunteers, is so many points of you know, relationship, 430 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: so many points of commonality as you get to know 431 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 4: people behind bars, and they have dreams, they have hopes, 432 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 4: they have families, and so there is no US in them, 433 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 4: like we are all we are all people. And then 434 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 4: what I'd also say is when you get to meet 435 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 4: people who are followers of Jesus in prison, what you 436 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 4: will be shocked by is the alive nature of the 437 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 4: Church inside people in prison. I think it's almost you know, 438 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 4: not in spite of but because of the conditions you 439 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 4: get there, perhaps because you've reached a rock bottom point 440 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 4: in your life, and so you're not under the misconception 441 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 4: that I think most Americans are that you are not believers. 442 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 4: And if you ask them do you think you're going 443 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 4: to heaven, they'll say, oh, yeah, I'm a good person. 444 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: Right. 445 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 4: Well, if you get to prison, you may be under 446 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 4: a new set of assumptions that, Okay, I don't know 447 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 4: if I'm such a great person at this point. And 448 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 4: so it's causing you to ask some big questions, right 449 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 4: It's causing you to have a level of humility, and 450 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 4: so that is a piece of it. The other thing 451 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 4: is you've got nothing but time. The level of scripture, 452 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 4: memorization of prayer, the experience of worship in prison, it 453 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 4: is unmatched. And so I tell people all the time, 454 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 4: I think the biggest misconception you're going to have in 455 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 4: prison ministry if you choose to do prison ministry and 456 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 4: you're starting out, is you're going to think you're going 457 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: to be able to bring Jesus into prison and you're 458 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 4: gonna come with us, and you're gonna be like, man, 459 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 4: oh man. 460 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: Jesus is doing pretty well here. They're bringing Jesus to me. 461 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 5: Exactly, I might have a thing or two I've learned 462 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 5: and I didn't have, Like a recent volunteer share, like 463 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 5: I was feeling really discouraged, like I'm going in and 464 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 5: I'm feeling like I'm not helping these guys, like they 465 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 5: could run this whole thing themselves. 466 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: And I just had to realize as all the guys. 467 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 4: Were encouraging me and telling me it means so much 468 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 4: that you would come in, And he said, I just 469 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 4: had to change my mindset. Now I tell my wife, 470 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 4: I'm not going to Wednesday Prison Industry volunteering. I'm going 471 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 4: to my Wednesday Bible study. And so you know, that's 472 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 4: the paradigm shift we see people go through. 473 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 2: I love that the US and them mentally because I 474 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: would say there very much is and you do think like, oh, 475 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: those people are so different from me. 476 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: And a lot of times they're not that different. So, 477 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: like you said, we're all people. 478 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: I want to ask you a hard question because this 479 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: may be on the mind of somebody listening. Oftentimes you 480 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: get to see the success stories, but there are those 481 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 2: people that you minister too. Maybe they come out, maybe 482 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 2: they are you know, second chance Sunday, and we go 483 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 2: up to the altar and you know, all of the stuff, 484 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 2: but it then doesn't turn out to be a success 485 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 2: story and their family gets burned, their church gets burned, 486 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 2: their life goes up in flames again. So speak to 487 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: that issue. Is there anything that Prison Fellowship does or 488 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: has learned about this? And just kind of navigating that 489 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: hard reality? 490 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 4: Sure, so much to say, it's a great question because 491 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 4: a couple things come to mind. One is just starting 492 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 4: from what scripture tells us, right, and when Jesus has asked, 493 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 4: you know how many times do I for forgive? It's 494 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 4: not seven times, it's seventy seven times seven, right. And 495 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 4: the Gospel calls us not just to hold people accountable, 496 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 4: but to hold open the door that God can change anyone, 497 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 4: even if they've made the same mistake time and time again. 498 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 4: And I even think of the testimony of one of 499 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 4: our staff to dear sister. If you met her, you 500 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 4: just glowing with the Lord's joy, Tammy Franklin, and you 501 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 4: just want to sit at her feet. She's just the 502 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 4: most wise grandmother of all time. But she was in 503 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 4: and out of prison in her fifty and she was 504 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 4: just trapped in this addiction. 505 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until the. 506 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 4: Lord like really caught hold of her. And she said 507 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 4: that there was these women who would come into prison 508 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 4: with the sparkling eyes, and they were the women who 509 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 4: loved Jesus and told her that I believe that you 510 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 4: are worthy and that you're a daughter of God. And 511 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 4: She's like, up until that point, like I had been 512 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 4: told my whole life I was nothing, that I would 513 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 4: amount to nothing, and so to have someone say that 514 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 4: to me, I didn't know. I really didn't know until 515 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 4: I was fifty years old that I was a daughter 516 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 4: of God, that I was beloved. And so I just 517 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 4: want to talk about that because I think at the forefront, 518 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 4: it's not saying we don't hold people accountable. Crime tears 519 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 4: at the fabric of society. We absolutely need to hold 520 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 4: people accountable. But it's also as a believer saying God 521 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 4: can still change something. There is no such thing as 522 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 4: an unredeemable person. They may never step into that, but 523 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 4: our job as a believer is to hold out the 524 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 4: hope that the Gospel holds out for them. At the 525 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 4: same time, I think about, you know what works, what 526 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 4: really works in this space, And after fifty years to 527 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 4: help people step into transformation and do it on a 528 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 4: sustained basis, we have learned a lot. And what we 529 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 4: have learned is that dosage matters. It's not enough to 530 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 4: come in and preach the gospel at a prison Hope 531 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 4: event and leave and have that person accept Jesus but 532 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 4: have no way of knowing how to walk out their faith. 533 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 4: And you know, think of yourself right as leading a church, 534 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 4: you and your husband. Right, it's not enough to just 535 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 4: have an alter call and never follow up of what 536 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 4: does discipleship look like? And so at Prison Fellowship, our 537 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 4: signature program is called the Prison Fellowship Academy for people 538 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 4: in prison. 539 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: It is five hundred hours. 540 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 4: You are going on a journey with people for about 541 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 4: twelve months. So every day they are in class with us, 542 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 4: they're also living in community with each other, and so 543 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 4: they're practicing what they're learning together. They're holding each other accountable. 544 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 4: They're getting coached by a full time staff person from 545 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 4: Prison Fellowship who's going in every day. Plus they're seeing 546 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 4: these amazing volunteers who are modeling not what perfect looks like, right, 547 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 4: but what healthy looks like as a believer. They're coming 548 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 4: in at night and supplementing the time with them, and 549 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 4: we're going over the core values that are biblical, things 550 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 4: like integrity and restoration and community. What does healthy community 551 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 4: look like. And so we're replacing criminal thinking. And a 552 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 4: lot of times people come to prison with very deeply 553 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 4: ingrained criminogenic thinking and we have to replace that with 554 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 4: a biblical worldview and these values of good citizenship. And 555 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,959 Speaker 4: so that's what we're doing with people during that time. 556 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 4: And our Academy participants, we actually get a study back 557 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 4: from the department, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, and 558 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 4: so it's not us doing the research. They study all 559 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 4: of their major programs across the state every two years 560 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 4: and they share back with us our recidivism, right, how 561 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 4: many people come back to prison. Our recidivism rate is 562 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 4: below six percent from the academy, and they actually match 563 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 4: our participants. Because some people might say, oh, well, you're 564 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,479 Speaker 4: probably just getting all the easy people, the people who 565 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 4: have already changed their motivation. And so actually, a really 566 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 4: cool thing about this study that we get is they 567 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 4: actually match our participants with other people in the prison 568 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 4: system in Texas who have similar criminal histories. So we 569 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 4: don't ask for just the low level offenses. We'll take anyone, 570 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 4: and so they match our participants against those and that 571 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 4: six percent recidivism rate represents more than a fifty percent 572 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 4: reduction in recidivism, and so we know what we're doing works. 573 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 4: But man, it is a significant investment in people and 574 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 4: discipleship full time, and we're now sitting up in an 575 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 4: alumni program and scaling it so that people can continue 576 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 4: that journey because a lot of times people aren't getting 577 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 4: out right after they finish our program. 578 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: They've got more time left, and so. 579 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 4: We want to utilize them as leaders and change makers 580 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 4: even in that prison where they may still be living 581 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 4: for a long time, or they may not go home. 582 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 4: And so that is what we have found works. It 583 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 4: really takes that deep, deep investment in people. 584 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: Deep deep investment. But you know what, it takes deep 585 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: investment for all of us to be transformed, every one 586 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 2: of us. I mean, it just does. Heather, this is 587 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: so great. Now if somebody's listening and they're thinking, wow, 588 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: I would like to get involved in prison Fellowship because 589 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking of my community and I'm like, honestly, 590 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: I don't even know where the prison is. 591 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: I don't even know. 592 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 2: I mean, that's terrible to say. Bet, I don't know 593 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: where it is. And I'm probably not that unique. 594 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 3: You know. 595 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 2: If somebody's listening, they live in the suburbs. So you 596 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: talked about the Angel Tree program, So that's one way. 597 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: But beyond that, how could someone connect with Prison Fellowship 598 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,239 Speaker 2: and find out a little bit more about how they 599 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 2: could get involved. 600 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 4: Yes, simplest way, we have an amazing website, Prisonfellowship dot org, 601 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 4: and so I would encourage listeners please come to the 602 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 4: website Prisonfellowship dot org. There's so many ways to get involved. 603 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 4: So usually the first primary way people get involved is 604 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 4: through Prison Fellowship Angel Tree and no matter where you 605 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 4: live across the country, you have angl Tree children, children 606 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,239 Speaker 4: with an incarcerated parent in your community. And so we 607 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 4: geo target the children that are signed up to receive 608 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 4: a gift to a local church, and that church will 609 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 4: either go deliver the gifts to those families or a 610 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 4: lot of times they'll host a Christmas party and invite 611 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 4: the kids to receive the gifts at their church. And 612 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 4: as I described in my own story, that can be 613 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,719 Speaker 4: a door opener to inviting those families into your congregation, 614 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 4: which is a beautiful thing. So that's a great way, 615 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 4: and it's not too early to be thinking about Christmas 616 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,479 Speaker 4: at Prison Fellowship. We're like Christmas in July y'all please 617 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 4: sign up because it's too close, it's too late, and 618 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 4: so we really need more and more churches are the 619 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 4: number of kids we have available who have been signed 620 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 4: up to Angel Tree is outpacing our church sign ups, 621 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 4: and so we need more churches to sign up to 622 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 4: participate in Angel Tree Christmas and hopefully you know it 623 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 4: starts a door opener to so much more than just Christmas. 624 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 4: We have a Justice Ambassador program and so we actually 625 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 4: train everyday Christians and how do you advocate for a 626 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 4: more restorative approach to justice? How do you talk to 627 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 4: your lawmakers about this? And so we've got about three 628 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 4: hundred Justice Ambassadors across the country who do this, so 629 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 4: that might be something you want to volunteer for. We 630 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 4: have in prison ministry opportunities, Like I said, you can 631 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 4: do prison ministry, or as I mentioned earlier, you can 632 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 4: do your Wednesday night Bible study. 633 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 5: Alongside some other you know, gentlemen who just happened to 634 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 5: be in person. 635 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 4: And so we've got those opportunities across the country as well. 636 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 4: And all of these things and more are going to 637 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 4: be explained and there will be breakout sessions at our 638 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 4: annual conference that we do for those who are church 639 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 4: partners and who are interested in learning more, and so 640 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 4: actually September fifteen, sixteen, we were hosting our Restore Conference 641 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: actually at my home church here in Washington, DC this 642 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 4: year National Community Church in Washington, d C. 643 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 5: And so on. 644 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 4: On the Prison Fellowship website, you can also look for 645 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 4: the Restore Conference and sign up for that, and that'd 646 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 4: be a great way to really get like a deep 647 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 4: dive in everything we do and what the next steps 648 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 4: for you and your church might be. 649 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 2: Love it, love it. We will put all of that 650 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: information in the show notes. Well, Heather, thank you so 651 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: much for being on the podcast during your Heart your ministry. 652 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 2: I feel like I I've just been so blessed and 653 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: learned a ton, So thank you so much for sharing 654 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 2: your wisdom and for all that you do. 655 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, Donna. 656 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 4: I hope someone listening today was just what they needed. 657 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 4: And thank you for what you do end uplifting these 658 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 4: stories and being willing to learn more about this space. 659 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: Just appreciate your heart. 660 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 2: Well, wasn't that an insightful episode? I hope you learned 661 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: a thing or two. I hope you were encouraged inspired. 662 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: I hope it was just what you needed. And if 663 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: we don't already follow each other on social media, let's 664 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 2: do it. 665 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: I met Donna A. 666 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: Jones on Instagram, Donna Jones, Speaker and author on Facebook, 667 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 2: or jump over to my website Donna Jones dot org 668 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: where you can sign up for my monthly free newsletter 669 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: and find all kinds of free resources. And as always, 670 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: my friend, I can't wait to see you next time, 671 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: for that's just what I needed.