1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: Many of us have learned, in one way or another 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 2: to be suspicious of our own desires. Some of us 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: were taught to follow them wherever they lead. Others were 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: taught to hold them at a distance, to manage them, 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: suppress them, or even to fear them. But what if 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: our desires are not simply problems to solve or impulses 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: to indulge. What if they are invitations? What if even 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: the places in us that feel confusing or misdirected are 10 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: trying to tell us something true about our lives, our stories, 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: and our longing for God. Hello friends, I'm Alan Faddling 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: and you're listening to the Unhurried Living podcast, where we 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: inspire you to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: In today's episode, I'm joined by Jay Stringer, therapist and 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: author of the book Desire. Together we explore how our desires, 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 2: both the ones we welcome and the ones we struggle with, 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: and become pathways toward healing, honesty, and deeper connection with God. 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: After a word from our sponsor, I'll share my conversation 19 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: with Jay Stringer. If you're listening to this podcast, I'd 20 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: love for you to follow or subscribe and If you're 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: watching on YouTube, please consider subscribing there as well. It's free, 22 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: it helps you stay in touch with us, and it 23 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: also helps more people discover the Unhurried Living podcast. My 24 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: guest today is Jay Stringer. Jay is a licensed therapist, 25 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: a speaker, and a researcher whose work focuses on the 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: intersection of spirituality, sexuality, and emotional health. He's spent years 27 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: helping people understand how their stories shape their desires and 28 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: how even the places we struggle with can become pathways 29 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: toward healing. Is the author of Desire Belongings Inside Us 30 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow. 31 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: In this book, Jay brings together clinical insight, personal story, 32 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: and spiritual wisdom to help us see desire not simply 33 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: as something to manage, but as something to understand. In 34 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: our conversation today, we explore how our desires, especially perhaps 35 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: the ones that confuse us or trouble us, that they 36 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: can actually guide us towards greater wholeness, deeper relationships, and 37 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 2: a more honest life with God. Let's jump now into 38 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: that conversation. So, Jay, I'm just so glad to have 39 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: this conversation with you. You've been helping many of us 40 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: put language to parts of our lives that maybe we 41 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: don't always know how to name. So thanks for being 42 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: with us. 43 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: Alan, such an honor to be with you. Thank you 44 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: for having me well, I appreciate it. So as I 45 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: read the book and as you begin it, you begin 46 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: with the image of a kind of civil war within 47 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: us when it comes to desire, that the same place 48 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: in us that can give us joy can also lead 49 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: to heartache. And so I wonder if you could help 50 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: us understand that tension. Why does desire feel sometimes so 51 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: conflicted for us? Yeah, I think most of us recognize 52 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: intuitively that desire has the potential to turn us into 53 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: the best version of ourself or the worst version of ourself, 54 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: And that right away just starts that civil war. So 55 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: I have had desires to write good books. I've had 56 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: desires to love my wife and kid deeply. Well, I've 57 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: also desired to not have a wife and kids, to 58 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: be able to be free from that. I have desired 59 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: things that are holy and beautiful, but I have also 60 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: desired pornography. I've also desired you know, I've had eating 61 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: disorders in my past. I've had you know, a lot 62 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: of conflicting desires inside of me, and so when I 63 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: look at desire, I'm like, Wow, this is responsible for 64 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: all the best things in my life. And yet there 65 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: have been so many desires within me that have also 66 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: opened the door to shame, that have opened the door 67 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: to heartache, that have opened the door to conflict and separation. 68 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: So I think a lot of us are just like, WHOA, 69 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: what do we do with desire? I don't want desire 70 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: to get too hot, don't want it to get you know, 71 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: just burning, that it might consume myself or someone. But 72 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: I also intuitively know that if I let desire die 73 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: inside of me, I'm going to feel depressed and I'm 74 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: going to feel like life is not worth living. And 75 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: so I think most of us are trying to figure 76 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: out like, Okay, I need to like stoke this flame 77 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,119 Speaker 1: a little bit, but not too much that it doesn't 78 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: get out of hand. But also I need to keep 79 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: some light, some heat going, otherwise I'm going to be cold, depressed, 80 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: and just that sense of like breat resigning to the 81 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: reality that life is not a good thing to have. 82 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, this is my experience. I wonder if it's 83 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: the experience of some of our listeners that I often 84 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: feel like I live between sort of two extremes, and 85 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: that I sort of see this in our culture too, 86 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 2: that some feel like whatever we feel, whatever we desire, 87 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: we just need to chase that down and make it happen. 88 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 2: It's like undiscerning, you know, in our relationship desire, but 89 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: maybe in at least my kind of conservative faith tradition, 90 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: often it kind of felt like desire is kind of suspect, 91 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: and I probably would mostly resist it or so press 92 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: it or deny it. And I wonder if you can 93 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 2: talk some to that. Those seemed to me to be 94 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: extremes in the way we relate to desire. 95 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: And that's what we're navigating. And that's I mean, as 96 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health counselor or day a minister. That's 97 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: what I began to find clients trying to navigate. Is 98 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: that I would say a lot of my clients came 99 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: from that conservative background where they were taught, you know, 100 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can trust it? And 101 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: so that led them to the suppression of desire to 102 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: try and manage their desires. And so it was this 103 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: fear of like if you actually lived well into desire, 104 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: You're going to turn out to be a very selfish person, 105 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: or God forbid, you might want something sexual. And so 106 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: then you know, those clients became adults and it was 107 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: kind of like, okay, we've been in a system of suppression, 108 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: of trying to manage everything. That SoundBite is no longer attractive. 109 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: And then you start hearing messages and culture that are 110 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, I love the parent the poet Mary Oliver 111 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: when she says, uh, you know, what is it that 112 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: you want to do with this one wild and precious 113 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: life that you've been given? And that wakes something up 114 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: of like what do I want to do with my life? 115 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: And so it's this invitation to pursue desire and yet, 116 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, unless you want to eat, pray, love your 117 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: way through life, that was kind of there was no 118 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: guidance about how to actually want well. And so then 119 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: you start following your desires, as you said, really well, 120 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: like you are undiscerning with your desires. And then where 121 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: do you end up? Will you end up with, you know, 122 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: on some hedonic treadmill of pleasure and you're trying to 123 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, go after success, You're trying to go after 124 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: pleasure and then you find that the pleasures that you're 125 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: after aren't satisfying, Like the Michelin meals, the luxury travel 126 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: that you thought was going to fulfill you. It's like, EH, 127 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: been to two May Micheline restaurants. They're all the same. 128 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: And so these things that you thought you wanted begin 129 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: to be less appealing in time and again, back to 130 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: that civil war of once we realize that, I think 131 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: that's usually the place where we deaden our desire somehow. 132 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: And so whether we're checking our phone a couple hundred 133 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: times a day, whether we have an overt addiction, unwanted behavior, 134 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: whenever you are struggling with your mental health, whenever you 135 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: have some problem, whether it's a conflict, alcohol, porn, all 136 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: of those things convince you that at some level there's 137 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: going to be judgment in your life. So it's not 138 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: just about escape, it's about a sense of, you know, judgment. 139 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: There's something about me, There's something about what I want 140 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: that I can't really trust. And I think that's what 141 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: most of us live under, is that ceiling of you know, 142 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,599 Speaker 1: I can try and pursue the good, the true, and 143 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: the beautiful every once in a while, but for the 144 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: most part there's a deadness in my life, oh man. 145 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: So that's what I kept coming back to in the 146 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: research and in my clinical practice, is like, no one 147 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: has really taught people how to want well. And yeah, 148 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: to do that well, you have to have a natural 149 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: interrogation for why you want anything. And so I'm not 150 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: trying to endorse like this free life of desire to 151 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: do whatever you want. But I also don't think we 152 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: need to pathologize desire at all either. And so when 153 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: I think about, you know, the parable the talents, I 154 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: think about that in terms of desire, it's like if 155 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: the Master has given people these talents, these desires, so 156 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: many of us bury our desires. We bury the talents 157 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: that God has given to us. And the Master's harshest 158 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: words are to those that suppress, and they know the 159 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: talents and the desires that they've been given. So I 160 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: want to wake people up to how stunning and how 161 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: powerful their desires are. But desires have to be formed 162 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: if they're going to actually grow beauty and connection and 163 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: purpose in your life. It doesn't just naturally happen because 164 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: you are pursuing a desire. So this is really a 165 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: roadmap of how do you actually desire. Well, what are 166 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: the five core aspects of desire that everybody needs to 167 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: experience and pursue in order to have a life of flourishing. 168 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: After the break, I'll continue my conversation with Jay Stringer. Absolutely, well, 169 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: I love, I really loved these five core desires as 170 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: you unpack them and describe them. I just think they're 171 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: They're so essential. And I wonder if you could just 172 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: say a little bit more about these five and these 173 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: various facets of desire that you've discovered and described. 174 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll name the five real quick and then 175 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: debrief some of them. So, the five are a desire 176 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: for wholeness, a desire for personal growth, a desire for intimacy, 177 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: a desire for pleasure, and then a desire for meaning. 178 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: And so part of what I would say is that 179 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: these are not a la carte menu options that you 180 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: get to pick or choose. But what happens a lot 181 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: is that people wake up to desire and they might say, Okay, 182 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: I have a desire for wholeness. I need to understand 183 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: my story. I need to understand the traumas that have 184 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: marked my life. I need to understand my family of 185 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: origin where I come from. And so then you develop 186 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: this amazing desire for wholeness and healing, and yet at 187 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: the same time you haven't actually desire or your own 188 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: personal growth, and so you're holding others hostage to Okay, 189 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: I'm a wounded man or woman. Now I need other 190 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: people to validate me. I need you know, I have 191 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: a sense of where I've been wounded, where life has 192 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: been hard. But if that desire for healing doesn't move 193 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: into a desire for personal growth and hospitality for one 194 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: struggles and intentionally pursuing growth, that's going to end up stalling. 195 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: But then after personal growth is that movement into intimacy. 196 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: And one of the realities that I wrote it in 197 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: that particular order is that so many people want better friendships, 198 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: they want a better marriage, they want better business connections, 199 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: and yet they want intimacy, but they have never done 200 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: the work of personal growth and differentiation to actually grow 201 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: a self. So I always think about intimacy as like 202 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: something similar to like going to a really good symphony 203 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, New York, Like you want your violinists 204 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: to be Julliard trade, you want your percussion team to 205 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: be world class, because when you get to that symphony. 206 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: It's full of differentiation. It's full of these individuals that 207 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: have put their ten twenty thousand practice hours into developing themselves. 208 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: But it's not about like, wow, that's an amazing drum solo. 209 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: It's a sense of the harmony that's created through these 210 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: differentiated people coming together to make music. And one of 211 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: the things that I just kept finding in my clinical 212 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: practice and in the research is you have all these 213 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: people that want good organizations, they want good families, they 214 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: want good marriages, and their desire for intimacy far exceeds 215 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: their desire for personal growth. So that would be like, 216 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: we want to make really good music on stage, but 217 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to practice to get there. And so 218 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: that was part of Okay, we've got to understand our 219 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: story to understand what real personal growth looks like. That's 220 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: not about optimization or self mastery. This is about hospitality 221 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: for struggles and then intentional growth. And then after you 222 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: develop differentiation, then intimacy is able to come. And then 223 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: the fourth desire is that of pleasure. And you know, 224 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: a lot of times people desire better sex, better experiences 225 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: of you know, goodness, pleasure in their bodies, but they 226 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: haven't done the previous work, and so they end up 227 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: pursuing pleasure that kind of feels flat, feels meaningless, It 228 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: feels like I'm just chasing something that feels addictive because 229 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: it's not really about pleasure has far more to do 230 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: with escape, or it has far more to do with 231 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: escaping intimacy than it does actually creating it. And then 232 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: after pleasure is this desire for meaning and purpose in 233 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: our lives. And so just that sense of like where 234 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: does your you know, what are the passions inside of you? 235 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: Like have you studied your story enough to know what 236 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: breaks your heart? Like? What is your hell no? In life? 237 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: Like I will stand against this level of injustice. I 238 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: will engage where there is silence, where there is corruption, 239 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: like that's something of my hell no. But then there's 240 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: also the sense of you know, what do I want 241 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: to say yes to? What are you know? What is 242 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: God put inside of me? For what is good, true 243 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: and beautiful that I will sacrifice all my life to 244 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: be able to see this glory, this beauty really begin 245 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: to fill the earth. And so that's where I would say, again, 246 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: these are not a la carte menu options. We've got 247 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: to choose all of them in different seasons of our 248 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: life in order to actually have a life of connection, 249 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: purpose and love. 250 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: That's so beautiful. I love the sense of interplay, the interconnectness, 251 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: but I also appreciate maybe our tendency to get very 252 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: attached to some one particular place of desire and isolated 253 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: and miss the connections that are sort of organic and holistic. 254 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: And that's a beautiful vision. 255 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean you've probably experienced this too. You have, 256 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: like you know, you'll have very successful people that want 257 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: to be joan of arcs in their career. They want 258 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: to be the best CEO possible, and yet like their 259 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: marriages are imploding, or you have some people that are 260 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: like you know, they are just all stars in their 261 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: particular career, and yet what's driving them is a sense 262 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: of pining for validation that back in their story is 263 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: a boy or a girl who feels dumb, who feels stupid, 264 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: and so instead of piring and developing a desire to 265 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: grieve and to express tears for what the traumas that 266 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: they have been through, that becomes a place that they 267 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: over index and meaning because that helps them feel better 268 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: about their life. It helps them escape some of the 269 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: crucibles that they need to be undergoing in their personal 270 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: story or in their relationships. So all of us are 271 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: over indexed in one realm of desire and very underdeveloped 272 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: in another. And those places that were underdeveloped are going 273 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: to create symptoms, They're going to create misery. And so 274 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: I want to help people develop a desire for something 275 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: very unnatural, which is to desire growth in the places 276 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: that you are struggling. 277 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well said. So I'm one of my 278 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: counselors would often say, you know, all desire is God's idea. 279 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: Desire is God given energy, God give an impulse. The 280 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 2: question is am I learning what He meant it to be? 281 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: Am I entering into the life that these various the 282 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: way you've captured it, these various desires are wanting to 283 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: move me into. And that's kind of something of what 284 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: I hear you describing. 285 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like Ronald Rolheiser is a you know, theologian. That's 286 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: part of what he says with desire. He says children 287 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: are born with these beautiful, raw desires, is how he 288 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: refers to them. And so just that sense of like 289 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: all kids are going to be unformed in their desire, 290 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: like Misspelling is how we learn how to spell. Stumbling 291 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: is how we learn how to walk. But when it 292 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: comes to a desire, you have a kid that like 293 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: expresses this desire and we you know, you see it 294 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: at the playground right where when my kids were young, 295 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: I remember, like, you know, kids that would be like, 296 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: I want the truck, and it's like, my god, like 297 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: what is wrong with their parents? Like do you realize 298 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: that you're going to like develop this petulant little kid. 299 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: And it's like, why didn't I think, Wow, that's a 300 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: boy who really knows what he wants and does that 301 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: desire for the truck need to be refined and polished, absolutely, 302 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: But we don't need to pathologize the kid for wanting 303 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: the truck or the girl for wanting the truck. We 304 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: need to help them kind of cultivate this raw desire. 305 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: And so Rollheiser uses the example of like, you know, 306 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: let's say a kid desires like food and is really 307 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: like hungry. Well, part of the job of the community 308 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: and the family is to connect that raw desire to 309 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: the life of the community. So, okay, so you want 310 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: a donut, great, let's not only get a donut for you, 311 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: but let's try and bless someone by picking up a 312 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: donut for a friend of ours, or let's make twelve 313 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: donuts and then have a play date and have friends over. 314 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: So it's that sense of how do we work with 315 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: these raw desires inside of us that are as your 316 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: mentor said, God's idea to begin with. But any desire 317 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: has to be disciplined, it has to be formed if 318 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: it's going to develop. And that's what I keep bumping 319 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: up against is that, you know, there's some desires that 320 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: we baptize as virtuous, like oh, if you want to 321 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: have a meaningful career or a great nonprofit or do ministry, like, 322 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: we will baptize those desires. And you know, you can 323 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: kind of neglect even your kids and your family in 324 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: the service of the kingdom. But you know, these other 325 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: desires if you actually just want to time off, or 326 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: if you wanted to like go on an amazing trip 327 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: or take thirty days of it's kind of like, oh, 328 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of a selfish desire there. So it's any 329 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: time we're serving others, it's usually baptized, but some sense 330 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: of exploration and time to kind of intentionally work on 331 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: ourselves to enjoy who we are. There's always some level 332 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: of suspicion there. 333 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I see the same thing. So I think one 334 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: of the insights that I appreciate that you're sharing with 335 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: us is that you suggest even our unwanted or our 336 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: confusing desires can actually be sort of cluesed to a 337 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 2: good way forward for us. Can you say more about that, 338 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 2: maybe using one or two of these five desires as 339 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: you describe them, for sure? 340 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: Yep. So part of where this theory is hanging upon 341 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: is this French psychoanalyst. And I promise this isn't that boring, 342 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: but there's a guy by the name of Lacan, and 343 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: he was a French psychoanalyst, and one of the things 344 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: he said is that every person has a symptom, and 345 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: in the French symptom is like symptom. And what he 346 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: says is every symptom is a Saint tome. Saint Tome 347 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,719 Speaker 1: is the French phrase for Holy Man. And so what 348 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: Lacan is saying is that every symptom of your life 349 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: is the Holy Man. It is the Holy Prophet that's 350 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,239 Speaker 1: trying to get your attention, and it will speak and 351 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,719 Speaker 1: it will continue to kind of express its symptoms until 352 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: you learn how to listen. The complexity is we don't 353 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: like our symptoms. I would rather have a gin and tonic. 354 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: I would rather have high and all than to listen 355 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: to what like bad back might be saying. And so 356 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: most of us try to annihilate our symptoms or treat them, 357 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: or get surgery for them, or medicate them, rather than saying, 358 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: what is this pain? What is this symptom actually trying 359 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: to communicate to me? So a couple examples would be 360 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: this came out of research for my first book, and 361 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: then we continued it for this one. But you know, 362 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: an issue like pornography, we could predict not just how 363 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: much porn someone watched, but we could begin to predict, 364 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: predict the types of porn people would pursue based on 365 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: the unaddressed realities of their life. So that's how we 366 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: knew we struck a nerve. And the research was people 367 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: would write into my team from all over the world 368 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: and say, like, do you think Jay could interpret the 369 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: sexual fantasy? And again, most people never want to talk 370 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: about that stuff. Oh, yet there was something about engaging 371 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: curiosity where it's like our desires are not random, even 372 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: our unhealthy, unwanted sexual behaviors are not random, embedded in 373 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: the very behavior that you are trying to escape, our 374 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: clues to your healing and to your growth. So an 375 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: example of that would be we found that some men 376 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: who wanted, you know, porn that had to do with 377 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: someone younger than them, a petite body type, a race 378 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: that suggested to them some level of subservience. Those men 379 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: had three key drivers. One was a strict father, one 380 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: was a lack of purpose in their life, and then 381 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: high levels of shame was the third. So if you 382 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: just play armchair psychologists for minute, if you're growing up 383 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: with a strict father, part of what a strict father 384 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: is doing is creating a master class and being powerless. 385 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: And so pornography is not just about lust. It's not 386 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: just about someone's attractive. It's that you have the ability 387 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: to be exceedingly powerful. You can get exactly what you 388 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: want when you want it. And so if you grew 389 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: up in a family system, a church system that created 390 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: powerlessness and began to you know, make you feel like 391 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: everything that you wanted was wrong, pornography gives you ten 392 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: minutes where you can have anything you want, and that 393 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: experience is so powerful. Or if you think about just 394 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: a lack of purpose in your life. A lot of 395 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: times it's that sense of like I'm trying to get 396 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: something started, but it's a dead lawnmower, and I can't 397 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: get this thing started no matter what I do. And 398 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: that's part of the appeal to something like porn is 399 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: that it gives you a place where you can get 400 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: exactly what you want when you want it. You don't 401 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: feel futility in that world. And so that would be 402 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: an example of instead of just trying to fight against 403 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: a desire for porn, fight to discover what's driving you 404 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: to it in the first place. Yet most of us 405 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: are trying to you know, do some version of less 406 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: management in our sexual life rather than really getting curious 407 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: about that. Another example would be we found that you know, 408 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: just you know, marital conflict, you could predict that the 409 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: couples that had the highest conflict in their relationships were 410 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: two point six times more likely to be enmeshed within 411 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: their family of origin systems. Or we also found that, 412 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: you know, couples that were able to talk about intimacy 413 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: and touch and engage in these conversations were eighteen point 414 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: nine times more likely to have a satis buying sexual relationship. Well, 415 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: what's the dilemma is that a lot of times, a 416 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: lot of us have never received the sex education. We 417 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: don't know what turns us on. We don't feel comfortable 418 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: revealing our erotic mind or asking someone else to reveal theirs. 419 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: And so if we don't have language, if we don't 420 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: know how our bodies work, we're not going to be 421 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: able to have good sexual lives. At the same time, 422 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the conflict that couples will undergo in 423 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: a marriage has to do with loyalty issues, where they 424 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: are still loyal to their mother or father even if 425 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: they don't like them. But maybe you grew up in 426 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: a family system that you know, your dad, your mom 427 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: wasn't very present to you, didn't see you, and so 428 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: you learned how to escape through the world of video 429 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: games or screens or some substance. Well, then when you 430 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: get married, you're still loyal to that system of escape 431 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: or maybe you know high conflict, and so that is 432 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: just another thing of what are the marital problems that 433 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: you're facing, How are they signals? How are they trying 434 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: to get your attention that those are the holy men 435 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: that we're facing as well. But you can do that 436 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: in any realm of life. I know I'm over indexing 437 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: right now and talking about sex and arousal, but this 438 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: is true and meaning and purpose. It's true and intimacy. 439 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: Any problem that you are facing is not a life 440 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: sentence to struggle or shame. It's an invitation to healing 441 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: and growth. And the struggle will show you the way 442 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: to healing. 443 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: That is such a to me. That's such a hopeful vision, 444 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 2: and it sort of takes you out of that tunnel 445 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 2: of you called it lust management. There's all other forms 446 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 2: of that sort of thing, problem solving oriented. But so 447 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: one of the things I noticed in my own journey 448 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 2: is often share that plays a really powerful role in 449 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: keeping me stuck or keeping me hidden. Imagine many of 450 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: our listeners can identify with that. How does shame distort 451 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: our relationship with desire? 452 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh man, it's such a good question. I mean it, 453 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 1: shame is to desire kind of what cancer is to 454 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: the body. It's going to erode it. And so you know, 455 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: when you think about shame, the way that the neuroscientists 456 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: talk about shame is, you know, like a manual transmission car. 457 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: So you have you know the gas pedal to break 458 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: in the clutch, and so what ends up happening to 459 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: us is that we are born with these raw desires, 460 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: as we referenced earlier, to go into the world, to touch, 461 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: to taste, to see. We want to drive, we want 462 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: to put our you know, pedal to the metal, as 463 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: they say, and just explore the world around us. Children 464 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: have a fairly develop sympathetic nervous system, that's the gas pedal. 465 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: Children do not have a parasympathetic nervous system that's highly developed. 466 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: They need parents, they need caregivers to be able to say, no, 467 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: you can't wait up until midnight, No you can't go 468 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: to bed without brushing your teeth, or no you can't 469 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: just have this now. We need to be able to 470 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: kind of hit the brake. We need to hit the 471 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: parasympathetic nervous system. But if you go to a manual 472 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: transmission car and you've ever driven one, what happens when 473 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: you hit the brake without hitting the clutch is what 474 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: the engine kind of doesn't just gently d die, It kind 475 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 1: of shears off and it jolts forward. And that's what 476 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: the neuroscientists say is happening with shame. It's that when 477 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: the break is applied, someone tells you no, did they 478 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: do it with the clutch of kindness or was there 479 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,239 Speaker 1: some slamming of the brake? And so a lot of 480 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: the shame that we feel inside it is we look 481 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: at ourselves and we're just like, what a stupid idiot? 482 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: And again that's the slamming of the break, or someone 483 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: says what in the world is wrong with you? Or 484 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: you say that to yourself, and again those are all 485 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: experiences where you slam on the break without the clutch 486 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: of kindness. The dilemma is embedded within some of the 487 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: questions like what's wrong with me? Or what's going on? 488 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: Why do I keep doing this? If you could actually 489 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: not be full of contempt and actually allow it to 490 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: be a question, it's a really good question, Like why 491 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: am I like this? Is very different then why am 492 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: I freaking like this? And so shame is always trying 493 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: to narrate our story with the worst possible explanation. It's 494 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: ready to document everything in the court of law against us. 495 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: But what I have found in my research in my 496 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: own life is that we don't just pursue behaviors to 497 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: provide an escape we actually pursued behaviors that reinforced the 498 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: core messages of shame about us. So I grew up, 499 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 1: you know, Donut was my nickname in middle school. So 500 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: I came to you know, middle school, first day of 501 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: seventh grade, eating a jelly donut. That jelly donut dripped 502 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: on my shirt and there was a jelly stain, and 503 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: this kid by the name of Brian, Brian mulroney put 504 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: his finger into my belly and did the Pillsbury dough 505 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: Boy giggle, and everybody at the bus stop laugh. And 506 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: so that sense of the shame that I felt in 507 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: that moment wasn't just because Brian mulroney did that. It 508 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: was also because there were all these places in my 509 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: life that I felt like I was unwanted, that I 510 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: was unlovable, that there was and so so many of 511 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: my behaviors throughout my life are attempts to reinforce that story. 512 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: And so what all of us need to do is 513 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: we need to be able to say, what are the 514 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: four or five core messages that shame is telling us 515 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: about who we are? And what are the stories? What 516 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: are the actual stories that if we had to draw 517 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: a portrait or if we were a filmmaker and had 518 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: to make the scene, how do we understand the core 519 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: stories that have most informed that belief. Because the brain 520 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: is an anticipation machine, and so it's always creating reality 521 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: in light of what it begins to anticipate life should be. 522 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: So if I believe that I'm unwanted or unlovable, if 523 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: I believe my desires aren't going to be trusted, lo 524 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: and behold, I will begin to pursue behaviors that confirm 525 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: those core beliefs about us. And so really complicated way 526 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: of going back to your question, which is any belief, 527 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: any negative belief, any shameful belief that you hold about yourself, 528 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: you will create evidence in the court of law against 529 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: you that those messages are true. And so you have 530 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: to go to intentionally disempower the voice of shame. You 531 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: have to turn towards it and say, Okay, where do 532 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: you come from? What are the stories that most need 533 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: my engagement and my kindness in order to begin to 534 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: challenge this voice of shame. 535 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well said. So you've mentioned how our story, 536 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: namely how we've grown up and experiences we've had along 537 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 2: the way shape us. So profoundly, and then some of 538 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: those stories sort of stick and we embellish them, and 539 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: then they run our lives. I think of myself, I 540 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: kind of grew up managing my life by focusing on 541 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 2: my thinking more than on my feeling or my emotion. 542 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: I didn't try my feeling. I had reasons for that 543 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: in the family in which I grew up, And so 544 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: I really realized, I'm more comfortable thinking about my desires 545 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 2: than experiencing my desires, and then my desires sort of 546 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 2: leak out in ways that I didn't realize they were doing. 547 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: Can can you say a little bit more about that 548 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 2: sort of experience that maybe some of us are having? 549 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean it's so well and just that image 550 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: of it. You know, again, what are the stories that 551 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: begin to inform why it's tough to have emotions or 552 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: to be in a body? And so, you know, Dan 553 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: Siegel says that kids need four s's in order to flourish. 554 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: They need to be seen, safe, sooth, and secure, and 555 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: so that sense of did you have a mother or 556 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,479 Speaker 1: a father that saw you and being seen as about 557 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: attunement and what we need is we need parents that 558 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: are attuned to our grief to our heartache. Like when 559 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: I came home from middle school that day, no doubt 560 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: in my mind, my face was not as bright as 561 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: when I left for school that day with a donut. 562 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: I was excited first day of school, my new Nike 563 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: windbreaker on. But it's that sense of okay, my face changed. 564 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: I know that my mom and my dad did not 565 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: engage that. Also, think about the places that you were 566 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: very excited, like what clothes did you love, what amusement parks, 567 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: what dishes, what drinks did you love? And did you 568 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: have a mother or father that really saw those things? 569 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: And if you don't have that site or you know, 570 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: the category of soothing to jump to the third s 571 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: if your parents are not soothing you, and far more 572 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: if they are a place of dysregulation that has profound 573 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: impacts on where you're going to go. So thinking can 574 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: become a form of soothing that I don't want to 575 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: engage my body. But if I think, and if I 576 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: just go off into my own world and do a 577 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: deep dive into this or books or ideas, then some 578 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: way I have created something of a protective barrier from 579 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: you know, the assaults of my feelings that maybe my 580 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: feelings were too much for my family, and so my 581 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: mom and my dad dismissed them, or I had really 582 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: intense feelings and they shame them. So it became protective 583 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: in order for some people to just you know, dwell 584 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: in the world of ideas and have that sense of 585 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: oxytocin come through you know, ideas, and then you get 586 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: good grades, and then people value you for your ideas, 587 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: and then it reinforces the loop of like, yes, I'm 588 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: a really good thinker, but I can't really trust my feelings. Well, 589 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: if you had as many practice hours in your feelings 590 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: as you did in your thinking behavior, you would actually 591 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: be really good at feeling. But the dilemma is all 592 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: of us have developed the provisional self, and that's not 593 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: our full self, but it's a self that helps us 594 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: navigate our world. And so similar to you, Alan, I 595 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: remember being in about eighth grade and was with my 596 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: dad at a Chesapeake bagel bakery and he knew I 597 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: was struggling in school, asked me if I wanted to talk, 598 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: got to the bagel shop, had almost nothing to say, 599 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: like I don't know how to open up. And part 600 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: of what my dad said to me that day was 601 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: Jay if you were an elder in my church, I 602 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: don't think I would continue to meet with you because 603 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 1: of how little you said, so compounding nature of trauma 604 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: that these kids are bullying me, and then I have 605 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,959 Speaker 1: a dad that says something like that. Well, my relationship 606 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: with my dad kind of plummets around that time. But 607 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: by my senior year in high school and all throughout college, 608 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: I was starting to read dead theologians, and what I 609 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: found is that the debtor, the better, as they say. 610 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: The more I was reading Jonathan Edwards Luther, the more 611 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: theologically minded I became. My relationship with my dad flourished. 612 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: So part of my provisional self in the world is 613 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm a good therapist. I recognize when my mom is 614 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: in something and I would offer ideas and insights and 615 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: care to her. But also I have an MDiv I 616 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: have I'm an ordained minister. I know how to have 617 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: theological conversations. So all of that became something of my 618 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: provisional self, which was if I am really good to people, 619 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: primarily women, that will get me through life, and then 620 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: if I can have deep theological conversations that are you 621 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,879 Speaker 1: know about dead theologians or ideas or creeds, confessions, theological 622 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: drama in the world. I can do really well in 623 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: those rooms as well, and it works until it's like, 624 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: I don't want to do this anymore. I'm done at 625 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: that post, Like can I please leave this post? I 626 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: don't want to work that job for the rest of 627 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: my life. And then that's what creates a mid life 628 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,919 Speaker 1: crisis or a midlife chrystalist as I've been calling it, 629 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: to just kind of be able to say, Okay, where 630 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: do I come from? But also what would a life 631 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: of integrity and passion and desire look like if I'm 632 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: not just playing the parts that I'm supposed to be playing. 633 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well said. I really appreciate that. So, 634 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 2: you know, as we come to a close of our conversation, 635 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 2: and maybe some of our listeners are hearing hearing our 636 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,919 Speaker 2: interaction and hearing something in what you're saying that really 637 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 2: resonates it. It rings true, it sounds you know, familiar. 638 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: I wonder if you could just talk about what's some small, 639 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: simple next step that a listen or might take to 640 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 2: move them forward in the healing of desire or in 641 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: the realignment of desire with God's intent for it. 642 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I would say, you know, pay attention 643 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: to I'll kind of use two words like the bells, 644 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: and then pay attention to the albatrosses. So the bells. 645 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: Like Annie Dillard, who's a Pulitzer Prize winning author, she 646 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: said something along the lines of I never knew I 647 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: was a bell until the moment I was lifted up 648 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: and struck. And so that sense of like, what are 649 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: the bell like moments that have been indelible for you? 650 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: That could be in your career, that could be in 651 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,280 Speaker 1: your family, that could be as a young boy or girl, 652 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: and so that sense of like when did you feel 653 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: most alive? When did you feel most connected to who 654 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: you are? And as you write down three or five 655 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: of those bell like moments, certain themes are going to 656 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: emerge with regard to how to more deeply honor and 657 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: live alignment with those desires. But then we also have 658 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: these albatrosses that are flying around and that could be 659 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: conflict in a marriage, that could be a sense of meaninglessness, 660 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: that could be a self sabotaged behavior of just not 661 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: liking our body or our choices, or just kind of 662 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: feeling lonely. And so whatever those albatrosses are, instead of 663 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: just trying to solve them or fix them, or medicate 664 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: them or ignore them, really plan out a season of 665 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: intentionality to be able to say, I wonder why this 666 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: symptom is emerging, and what is this symptom? How is 667 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 1: it actually trying to serve me? What is it? How 668 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: can it become something of a holy man in my life? 669 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: And so I think that's really what we need to 670 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: kind of start, is that the human heart changes with 671 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: regard to particularity. So we don't change by saying like 672 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: I was sexually abused, or you know, I want more 673 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: passion in my life, or I want more desire, I 674 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: want this to happen in my marriage. You have to 675 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: enter into the specifics of any of those particular themes, 676 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: and so the more that the brain names what is true, 677 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 1: the freer it will become. So I think, just pay 678 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: attention to where the bells are ringing, because those desires 679 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: have been placed into you, and it is your adult 680 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: duty to develop them, to curate them, to really experience 681 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: the goodness and beauty of those desires. But then there's 682 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: also some desires in your life that are probably wreaking havoc, 683 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: and you need to change your approach with regard to 684 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: how you engage them. So you know it is the 685 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: kindness of God that leads to repentance and change. Yes, 686 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: not willpower, not hatred, not ignorance. The more kind we 687 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: can become to the difficulties of our life, the more 688 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: change we will experience. So offer radical hospitality to everything 689 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: inside you that is broken, hurting, and undone, and you 690 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 1: will have a very dramatically different life than the one 691 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: that you currently have. 692 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 2: That is such a gracious and hopeful invitation. Well again, 693 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 2: today my guest has been Jay Stringer, and we've been 694 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 2: talking about his book Desire, the Longings Inside Us and 695 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 2: the new science of how we love, eel and grow. Jay, 696 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 2: it's just been a great pleasure to talk with you today. 697 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: Likewise, sounds so good to meet you and appreciate yeah, 698 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: your questions and bringing me a little bit into your 699 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: story and thinking as well. So grateful for your mind. 700 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 2: Thanks again, Thank you for listening to the Unhurry Living podcast. 701 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 2: To learn more about us, visit unhurryliving dot com. In 702 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,320 Speaker 2: the show notes, you'll find helpful links and information about 703 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 2: our partner, Live Audio and all of their other faith 704 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 2: centered podcasts.