1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: Hi from the Salvation Army. You're listening to Words of Life, the. 3 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 3: Words of Life. 4 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 4: Welcome back to Words of Life as we continue this 5 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 4: discussion with our panel which began last week. Today, we're 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 4: focused on the topic of mental health and what role 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 4: the church should play in creating safe places of healing 8 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 4: for those suffering from a mental health crisis. Doctor Ian 9 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 4: Mudge is our resident psychologist throughout this series, and we're 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 4: so grateful for the wisdom he shares with us in 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 4: this episode. If you are looking for counseling, I would 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 4: recommend reaching out to your local church to see if 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 4: they have connections to local councilors. We will also have 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 4: several links in the show notes, including Psychology Today's online 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 4: therapist directory. If you're in need of immediate emotional support, 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 4: you can die on nine to eight eight anywhere in 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 4: the US and be connected with someone right now. We 18 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 4: really pray you are already being blessed by this series, 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 4: so be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 4: favorite podcast store so you don't miss any of these episodes. 21 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: I'm wanna start with a story. I was going to 22 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: buy our most recent car, and I went to the 23 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: car salesman, I said, I want this car. And we 24 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: were sitting down while the paperwork was being done and 25 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: we were having a conversation. He says, what do you 26 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: do for a living. Oh, well, I'm a psychologist and 27 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: I work with pastors who are struggling. And he looks 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: at me like I'm crazy, and he goes, pastors don't struggle. 29 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: What are you talking about? How do you even have 30 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: a job, Like these people are so close to God 31 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: that God will overcome any of their struggles. And I said, 32 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: I hate to break it to you, but that's part 33 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: of the attitude that leads to mental health struggles. 34 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 5: In the church. 35 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: We have this expectation that because we're close with God, 36 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: we're not going to suffer. And if we read the Bible, 37 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: I get the exact opposite message of that, of course 38 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: we're going to suffer. Of course we're going to experience difficulties. 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: Now that should still inform how we respond to those difficulties. 40 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: But I think in the church we have this attitude 41 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: that we have to bury mental health, or hide our 42 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: mental health, or hide our struggles because it's somehow indicative 43 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: of a poor relationship with God. And one of the 44 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: big things that I'm always pushing pastors to do is 45 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: talk about your mental health struggles. Why because vulnerability is 46 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: what gets other people to talk about their difficulties and 47 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: their issues. If you want somebody to reveal something about themselves, 48 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: tell them your own story about suffering and struggle. And 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: when we start getting those things out there, we can 50 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: begin the healing process. But as long as it's buried, 51 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: it's just sitting there and festering within us, and it's 52 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: just corrupting us, and then everything that comes out of 53 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: us ends up corrupted by that. The reason why we 54 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: hide our mental health issues is because of shame. I 55 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: want to define what shame is for just a second, 56 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: because I think this is a really important topic. Shame 57 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: is feeling like there's something wrong with me. A lot 58 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: of people get that confused with guilt, which is feeling 59 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: bad for something I've done wrong, because they do go 60 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: hand in hand. But shame is feeling like there's something 61 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: wrong with me. And when something bad happens to us, 62 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: be it abuse, be it trafficking, be it all of 63 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: these topics that we're talking about, people feel this shame. 64 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: There must be something wrong with me caused me to 65 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: experience this, and as a counselor, my real job is 66 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: to tell him that's absolutely not true, it has nothing 67 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: to do with you and help them come through that shame. 68 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: But we worship a God who is the opposite of shame. 69 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Bonhoeffer talks about how shame is disunity, disunity with our self, 70 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: disunity with God, and disunity with other people. When shame 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: is present, it's telling us that there's some sort of disunity, 72 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: and we worship a God who there is no condemnation. 73 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: God is trying to get us to connect. He's trying 74 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: to bring us into unity with Him and unity with others, 75 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: into unity with ourselves, and shame is the opposite of that. 76 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: So in the church, we hide our mental health issues. 77 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: We're feeding the shame that's keeping us separated. And we 78 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: need to do the exact opposite. And I know that 79 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is hard, but we can't be vulnerable 80 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: without taking risk. 81 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 5: Healing happens in the context of commu unity, and I 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 5: think churches are spaces where we need that vulnerability and 83 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 5: openness to share. And I know when we're talking about 84 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 5: anti trafficking work or pathway of Hope and working with 85 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 5: vulnerable families. One thing we value is community collaboration and 86 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 5: integrating the church into the work that we do. And 87 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 5: so we encourage families to be a part of the 88 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 5: church and to build relationships with people so that they 89 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 5: have support as they're navigating their mental health struggles, you know. 90 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 5: And a lot of times what we see with whether 91 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 5: it's with homelessness or anti trafficking, is that it's not 92 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 5: just one thing. There is often mental health challenges, addiction challenges, 93 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 5: trauma from adverse childhood experiences, and so healing doesn't happen with, 94 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 5: you know, one thing. It takes a community of support 95 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,119 Speaker 5: walking alongside people, and so I think our churches should 96 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 5: be spaces where we can all experience healing and experience 97 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 5: the Lord's grace. 98 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 4: Hey, you're listening to the Salvation Army's Words of life. 99 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 4: We're going to take a quick ad break and we'll 100 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 4: be right back here. 101 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 3: I want to kind of pick up where you're talking 102 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: about shame. I would say that even though I've been 103 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 3: through some really hard situations in my life, I think 104 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 3: that the Lord has enabled me to get past the 105 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: shame so that I could share those experiences with others. 106 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,119 Speaker 3: Even though I've been told numerous times to not share 107 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 3: those things, that they're too personal, you know, But I 108 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: really felt like God was saying to me, there are 109 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 3: people that you're speaking to that need to hear that 110 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: you can move past that, that the Lord can heal, 111 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 3: that you don't have to live in shame for those things. 112 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 3: And so I really feel like that that has been 113 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: a part of my story even as to why I 114 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: want to help other people, and then also to be 115 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: able to see that other people have trauma, other people 116 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 3: have very hard circumstances, and then you keep them inside 117 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: of yourself, they just come out in other very unhealthy ways. 118 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: And so even though I hate that I went through 119 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: any of that, I'm so thankful that I can use 120 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 3: that to help other people and that, you know, as 121 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: you said, like that I'm not going to live in 122 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 3: shame for that. That God sets us free from that, 123 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 3: and that already people have so many complicated feelings about 124 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: things and that I hate that they would have to 125 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: add shame on top of that too. 126 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 6: So that story in the car dealership, it does shine 127 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 6: a light on on this when we talk about shame. 128 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 6: I love how you said it was. It's disunifying. From people, God, yourself, 129 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 6: most of us probably already know. But the US Surgeon 130 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 6: General declared loneliness and isolation as a national public health 131 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 6: epidemic that is live right now. There's advisories behind it 132 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 6: and ways that the US is trying to kind of 133 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 6: mitigate the situation. And it wasn't necessarily caused by COVID. 134 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 6: It was, It's just been happening. And so when I 135 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 6: think of shame, shame thrives in isolation. This mental health crisis, 136 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 6: it all thrives in isolation, and this conversation there's no 137 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 6: better time than now to have it. When we talk 138 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 6: about mental health struggles in the church. I mean, I'm 139 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 6: so I can talk for hours about it because I 140 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 6: think that's where the trauma, all of that likes to 141 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 6: hide behind. Well, I'm a believer, and you know Jesus 142 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 6: paid it all and that should be the end of it, 143 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 6: and it's not. We still have to do the work. 144 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 6: And it says, to your point, Major Sandra, about healing, 145 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 6: the Bible says, confess your sends one to another and 146 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 6: then you'll be healed. And it's not necessarily bearing all 147 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 6: of this is what I've done, but it's the same 148 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 6: as partnership. It's the ministry of reconciliation with each other. 149 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 6: If I'm sharing this is what I've gone through to another, 150 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 6: that's where healing begins. I think we need to bring 151 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 6: that back to the church really normalize. We are all broken. 152 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 6: Past or so and so, you are also broken, and 153 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 6: it's okay because you're human. 154 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 4: We pray that you're enjoying and being blessed by this conversation. 155 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 4: We're going to take one more ad break and we'll. 156 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 6: Be right back. 157 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: I worked for five years in in patient rehab setting, 158 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: working with people struggling with homelessness and addiction coming right 159 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: out of prison. And you'll never meet a more shameful 160 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: population than that. They like to keep everything in why 161 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: because they've been through horrible things, They've done horrible things. 162 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: And I always sit down with them and tell them 163 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: it's those things that you're not willing to talk about 164 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: are the things that are driving your addiction. They're driving 165 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: you towards prison institutions and death. And if you want 166 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: to overcome that, we have to confess. We have to 167 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: bring it out and talk about it. That's what counseling 168 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: is for. Please please people, I'm legally held to a 169 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: standard of confidentiality. Come tell me stuff. 170 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 3: It's freedom. 171 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's freeing. And that's how we overcome shame. We 172 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: have to shine a light on it. It's those skeletons 173 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: in the closet that are always going to come back 174 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: to bite us. For people listening. If you don't have 175 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: anybody that you can trust, if you don't have anybody 176 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: that you can connect to, talk to a counselor find 177 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: a friend, find a church, open up about these things 178 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: because you are suffering. Only has meaning when it's shared 179 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: and when the healing can begin, and when God can 180 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: step in and begin working through that to help other people. 181 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: But by helping other people, you're also helping yourself. It's 182 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: the incredible thing. We worship a God who is here 183 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: with us, going through the suffering with us. This isn't 184 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: some abstract thing, right. Jesus came to the earth and 185 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: he suffered and died in the most horrible way. Why 186 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: for our sins? Sure, it's a sacrifice for our sins, absolutely, 187 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: but also because he identifies with us, He understands us, 188 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: He's there with us when you're in that moment of suffering, 189 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: when you're in the depths, the dark depths. God's there too. 190 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: You might not see him, you might not feel his presence, 191 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: but he's there with you. We worship a God who 192 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: is present with us and can work through that in 193 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: a positive way and bring positive things out of it. 194 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: I don't understand how it works. I've got no clue, 195 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: but God can work through our suffering. God, I thank 196 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: you for your overwhelming love and the fact that you 197 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: love every single one of us unconditionally. Doesn't matter what 198 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: we've done in the past, doesn't matter what we've thought, 199 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: who we've hurt, the horrible things that have been done 200 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: to us, and the difficulties that we've been through, but 201 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: the fact that you still continue to love us. You 202 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: tell us in your word that we are fearfully and 203 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: wonderfully made. And that same chapter you say before anything 204 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: happened to us, it was written in your book. You 205 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: knew what was going to happen to us, and you 206 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: chose to create us anyway. And we thank you for 207 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: that love. And we thank you that if we confess 208 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: our sins, if we confess our shame, you are faithful 209 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from 210 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: all unrighteousness. God for right now, for those who are 211 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: out there listening to this, who are suffering, be with 212 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: them in that moment. Make your presence known, give them 213 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: the peace that only comes from you, and thank you 214 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: that your love is with them and that your love 215 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: will help give purpose to their suffering. Jesus name the. 216 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: Salvation Army's mission doing the most good means helping people 217 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: with material and spiritual needs. You become a part of 218 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: this every time you give to the Salvation Army. Visit 219 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: Salvation Army USA dot org to offer your support. You 220 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: can subscribe to Words of Life on your favorite podcast 221 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: store or visit Salvation armyesoundcast dot org. Join us next 222 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: time for the Salvation Armies Words of Life. 223 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 5: These are the words of life, These are the words, 224 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 5: These are the words of. 225 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 3: Life or. 226 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for listening to Words of Life. We 227 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 4: want to thank the team at Life Audio for their 228 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 4: partnership with us on the show. Visit lifeaudio dot com, 229 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 4: where you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in 230 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 4: their network. They have shows about prayer, Bible studying, parenting, 231 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 4: and more. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.