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Speaker 1: Life Audio. This is Donna Jones and you are listening

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Speaker 1: to That's just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've

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Speaker 1: ever been in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 1: that was just what I needed, you know how life

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Speaker 1: giving that can be. Well, that's what this podcast is

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Speaker 1: all about. We're women who want to know, love, and

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Speaker 1: follow God in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just

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Speaker 1: how to do it. So each week we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: what following God looks like in the midst of daily

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Speaker 1: demands and crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what

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Speaker 1: we need, it's actually exactly what we need. Hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the podcast. I am so glad you're

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Speaker 1: here for a very interesting conversation today. I hope it

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Speaker 1: will be enlightening. It will probably be a little challenging,

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Speaker 1: but in a go you know, sometimes we need those, right.

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Speaker 1: But before we jump into our topic, I wondermind you

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Speaker 1: that if you don't subscribe to the podcast, I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to do that. That is one of

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Speaker 1: the ways that the algorithm thing kind of works, so

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is broadcast to a larger audience and

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Speaker 1: more people can find out about it. People that might

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Speaker 1: not be searching specifically for this podcast, they might be

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Speaker 1: searching for something similar. And the more people that subscribe,

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Speaker 1: then the more that this podcast is suggested. So if

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Speaker 1: you like this podcast and you listen to it, even

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Speaker 1: just semi regularly, if you would just subscribe, like leave

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Speaker 1: a review, that would be so helpful. I would just

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Speaker 1: want to thank you in advance for doing that. And

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Speaker 1: also just as a reminder, I'm giving book away for

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Speaker 1: somebody who leaves a review. My last guest was Lisa

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Speaker 1: Appolo and she wrote a book called The God of

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Speaker 1: All Comfort and we're doing giveaway. So do that list,

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Speaker 1: leave a quick review, and you will be entered for

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Speaker 1: a chance to win Lisa's brand new book that is

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Speaker 1: just coming out this week. So those are some of

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Speaker 1: the little housekeeping details that I thought might as well

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Speaker 1: just start off with that, because sometimes it's good to

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Speaker 1: get that stuff out of the way, But it really

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Speaker 1: would be helpful if you'd subscribe, like review all the stuff. Well,

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about something that I know

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Speaker 1: for a fact that you have dealt with and if not,

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Speaker 1: if you're one of the lucky few, then you've certainly

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Speaker 1: heard stories about manipulative people or maybe you've worked with one,

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Speaker 1: maybe you dated one, maybe you've been hurt by one.

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Speaker 1: But here's the uncomfortable question, what if at times we've

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Speaker 1: been the manipulative of one. Now, before you hit pause,

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Speaker 1: because this may be a little challenging, I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: that you're necessarily a controlling person. I'm just saying that

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Speaker 1: manipulation is often much more subtle than we think, because

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Speaker 1: most manipulation doesn't come from malicious people. It comes from

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Speaker 1: ordinary people trying to protect themselves, people like me, people

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Speaker 1: like you. In fact, as I was preparing for this podcast,

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Speaker 1: I just thought of a funny story that happened just

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Speaker 1: the other day. My husband was gonna wear something and

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Speaker 1: I looked at him and I was like, are you

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Speaker 1: gonna wear that? And I was like, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: what I'm gonna wear. And I was like, oh, but

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Speaker 1: the way I said it was obvious that I didn't

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Speaker 1: really approve of his outfit, and so he was like, well,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with this? I'm like, oh no, no, no, really,

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Speaker 1: you know it's fine. And he was like, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you don't think it's fine. I'm like, well, no,

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Speaker 1: you know it's fine. No, Donna, I know, you don't

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Speaker 1: think it's fine? What do you think I should wear?

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Speaker 1: And it was just so funny that I didn't come

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Speaker 1: out and just say what I thought, and I'm usually

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Speaker 1: a pretty upfront person, nor did I just let it go.

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Speaker 1: But what was actually subtly manipulative about that was I

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Speaker 1: asked a question, are you going to wear that? As

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Speaker 1: if of course he was going to wear that that's

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Speaker 1: what he had on. I mean, it was obvious, but

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Speaker 1: the way I asked the question was kind of subtly

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Speaker 1: letting him know without coming out and saying it, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's the right thing for you to wear.

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Speaker 1: And just my attitude and those questions, see what I

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Speaker 1: was doing, I was. I was manipulating him to get

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Speaker 1: the outcome that I wanted, which was for him to

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Speaker 1: wear a different shirt. Now, isn't that such a random thing.

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Speaker 1: We've probably all done things like that. That's my point

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Speaker 1: is that manipulation can be so much more subtle than

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Speaker 1: we think it is, in fact, even before we jump in,

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Speaker 1: so that we can spot manipulation both in ourselves and

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Speaker 1: also on others. I was meeting with Agal this was

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Speaker 1: a long time ago, and we were talking about being

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Speaker 1: manipulative and being judged mental. And I happen to know

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Speaker 1: that this gal was truly one of the most manipulative

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Speaker 1: women I've ever met in my life, and also very judgmental.

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Speaker 1: And she said to me, Oh, I'm really not a

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Speaker 1: judgmental person. I'm just not judgmental at all. And I

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Speaker 1: remember thinking, Wow, you're completely unself aware. But here's the

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Speaker 1: thing I think that there is little of her in

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Speaker 1: all of us, is that sometimes we aren't self aware

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Speaker 1: about the ways that we are handling our relationships. So

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Speaker 1: in an effort to make us not only more relationally healthy,

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Speaker 1: but also spiritually healthy, we're going to talk about this

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Speaker 1: thing that we all face. And yes, occasionally we all

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Speaker 1: do manipulation. So what exactly is manipulation, Because, as I said,

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Speaker 1: that word gets batted around quite a bit. Here's what

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Speaker 1: manipulation is. Population is trying to control another person's thoughts, feelings, decisions,

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Speaker 1: or behavior through indirect pressure, emotional leverage, guilt, deception, or

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Speaker 1: control instead of honest, loving communication. Now, notice what manipulation

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Speaker 1: is not. It isn't asking, It isn't expressing your feelings,

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Speaker 1: It isn't making an appeal, it isn't persuasion because God

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Speaker 1: invites parents, teach, friends, encourage leader's influence. Those things are healthy.

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Speaker 1: Manipulation happens when we stop respecting another person's freedom to choose.

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Speaker 1: So instead of communicating, we begin managing. Instead of trusting,

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Speaker 1: we begin controlling. So let's go back to my silly

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Speaker 1: example about my husband's shirt. Can you see how I

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Speaker 1: didn't just come right out and say, hey, dabe, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that shirt would be the most appropriate for

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Speaker 1: this event we're going to. How about if you wear

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Speaker 1: this shirt instead instead? I went through the back door.

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Speaker 1: I tried to control the outcome, not by just expressing

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Speaker 1: my opinion or expressing my thought or giving him a suggestion,

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Speaker 1: but by doing it in a way that wasn't open communication.

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Speaker 1: So that's manipulation. That's why almost all of us use it.

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Speaker 1: And here's the big idea about manipulation. It's the sentence

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Speaker 1: that I hope you will remember after today's episode. Manipulation

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Speaker 1: begins when I stopped trusting God with the outcome and

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Speaker 1: start trying to control people to get the outcome I want.

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Speaker 1: And yes, it can happen on silly things like what

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Speaker 1: to wear, but it can happen on more monumental things

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Speaker 1: as well, and everything in between. That's why it's really

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Speaker 1: important for us to be able to spot when we

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Speaker 1: are being manipulative or when others are trying to manipulate us. Again,

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Speaker 1: manipulation begins when I stop trusting God with the outcome

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Speaker 1: and I start trying to control people to get the

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Speaker 1: outcome I want. So maybe write that down. We'll put

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Speaker 1: it in the show notes, because once I realize this,

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Speaker 1: it changed the way I looked at my own relationships.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes the outcome I want is agreement, Sometimes its respect,

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's reassurance. Sometimes it's getting my adult child to

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Speaker 1: make the decision I think is best. Sometimes it's getting

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Speaker 1: my husband to understand my perspective. Sometimes it's wanting a

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Speaker 1: friend to apologize. And none of those desires are necessarily wrong.

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Speaker 1: Here's the question, how do I go about getting them?

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Speaker 1: That's where manipulation comes in. So what drives a manipulation?

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Speaker 1: I mean, why don't we just come out and say

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Speaker 1: what it is that we're really thinking. Well, most people

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Speaker 1: don't wake up planning to manipulate someone. In fact, from

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Speaker 1: most of us, manipulation it was a coping technique really

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Speaker 1: as a child, but what drives it or several things.

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Speaker 1: The biggest one is probably fear. It's fear of rejection

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Speaker 1: or fear of conflict, fear abandonment, fear of hearing no,

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Speaker 1: fear of losing influence. Instead of trusting God, we start

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Speaker 1: managing people. Another motivation as pride. Sometimes manipulation sounds like

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Speaker 1: I know what's best, or if everyone would just listen

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Speaker 1: to me. This is especially tempting when we're actually right.

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Speaker 1: The problem isn't having wisdom. The problem is believing it's

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Speaker 1: our responsibility to make everyone follow it. And sometimes that

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Speaker 1: thought I know what is right, it's verbalized, but sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's just in our head. And so even thinking I

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Speaker 1: know it's best, I know it's right, this is what

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Speaker 1: we should do. Then what ends up happening is that

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Speaker 1: it comes out in our behavior and in our words.

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Speaker 1: Because we're trying to control somebody to do something that

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Speaker 1: we want them to do. That's manipulation. Another reason we

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Speaker 1: do it is just self protection. It's emotional armor. So

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Speaker 1: instead of saying things like hey, that really hurt me,

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Speaker 1: we withdraw or we become sarcastic, passive, aggressive, cold, because

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Speaker 1: vulnerability feels too risky. So manipulation allows us to protect

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Speaker 1: ourselves without actually exposing our heart. Another reason, a big one, really,

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Speaker 1: is impatience. We are just frankly tired of waiting, tired

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Speaker 1: of waiting for God, tired of waiting for change, tired

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Speaker 1: of waiting for people to mature, tired of waiting for justice.

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Speaker 1: So we start pushing, pressuring, scheming, trying to manufacture what

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Speaker 1: only God can accomplish. Another reason that we manipulate is

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Speaker 1: a desire for power. This is the kind we usually

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Speaker 1: think about. Some people manipulate because they just genuinely enjoy control.

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Speaker 1: They need to win, they need to be admired, they

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Speaker 1: need to be right, they need everyone to orbit around them.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes this can be really subtle. It can almost

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Speaker 1: marry itself with pride and with believing that we're right,

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Speaker 1: because we think, well, everyone should listen to me. I

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Speaker 1: would be the best leader. I mean, the way I

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Speaker 1: am thinking about this is obviously the best way, or

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Speaker 1: the right way, or the only way or the correct way.

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Speaker 1: And so we've so convinced ourselves that we are right

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Speaker 1: that in our minds it's like, well, it doesn't even

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Speaker 1: seem manipulative that I'm trying to get everybody to do

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Speaker 1: what I want them to do, or think they should do,

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Speaker 1: or know that is best for them to do. But

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Speaker 1: what's so subtle about that is that it is manipulative

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Speaker 1: because again, it's control to get what we want. It's

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Speaker 1: control to get our preferred outcome. Can you see how

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Speaker 1: this can be really really subtle. One last reason that

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Speaker 1: we manipulate is just unmet needs, because sometimes we have

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Speaker 1: needs that are completely legitimate. I mean, we need reassurance,

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Speaker 1: we need encouragement, we need connection. Those are not wrong needs,

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Speaker 1: those are not sinful needs. They're just human needs. But

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Speaker 1: the problem comes when we use unhealthy strategies to meet

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Speaker 1: healthy needs. So instead of asking, we instead of communicating,

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Speaker 1: we guilt. Instead of being vulnerable, we manipulate. Instead of expressing,

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Speaker 1: we cry. See these are all common motivations that everyday

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Speaker 1: women and men use to manipulate others, and we're not

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Speaker 1: even aware of it most of the time. So how

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Speaker 1: does manipulation show up? We talked about the motivation, but

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Speaker 1: it shows up in a number of ways. Here's just

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Speaker 1: the really crazy part. Manipulation doesn't usually announce itself. It's,

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Speaker 1: as I've said before, it's really subtle. Manipulation shows up

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Speaker 1: as guilt. We say things like I'll just do it myself,

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Speaker 1: or I just didn't think you'd disappoint me, or I

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Speaker 1: can't believe you would do that. When we make someone

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Speaker 1: else responsible for our emotions, that's manipulation. I'm gonna say

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Speaker 1: that again. When we make someone else respect for our emotions,

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Speaker 1: we use guilt to manipulate. Passive aggressiveness is another way

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Speaker 1: manipulation shows up. Okay, so let's just camp here from

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Speaker 1: a minute, because I think many of us have done

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Speaker 1: this without even realizing it. Passive aggressiveness is indirect communication.

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Speaker 1: Our words say one thing, but our behavior says another.

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Speaker 1: So we insist I'm fine, but clearly we're upset. We

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Speaker 1: slam cabinet doors, We sigh loudly, We make sarcastic comments.

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Speaker 1: We expect people to read our minds. Why because honesty

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Speaker 1: feels vulnerable, or maybe we just never learned to be

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Speaker 1: honest in the first place. It's easier to make someone

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Speaker 1: guess what's wrong than just to say my feelings were

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Speaker 1: hurt or I'm upset or that made me mad. But

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Speaker 1: healthy relationships are not built on hints. They're built on

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Speaker 1: truth spoken in love. Another way that we use the

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Speaker 1: manipulation is the silent treatment. Healthy people take space for themselves,

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Speaker 1: but manipulative people use silence or ghosting as a punishment,

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Speaker 1: and there is a difference. We also use manipulation when

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Speaker 1: we triangulate things, so instead of talking to the person,

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Speaker 1: we talk about the person. Holy cow, I can't even

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Speaker 1: tell you how much I've seen this. And it's so

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Speaker 1: funny because in my book Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life, I

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Speaker 1: talk about this and you know, people nod, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: that's so unhealthy. And then, man, this is just really rampant.

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Speaker 1: Instead of talking to a person, we talk about a person,

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Speaker 1: and that's manipulation because we end up recruiting allies. We

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Speaker 1: build a case, we create pressure and see that never

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Speaker 1: builds unity, that only builds divisiveness. And it's getting people

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Speaker 1: on our side in order to control the narrative or

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Speaker 1: the outcome. It's manipulation. Another way we use manipulation is

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Speaker 1: spiritual manipulation. This one concerns me the most because it's

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Speaker 1: using God language to pressure people to do things our way,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily God's way. So someone might use a phrase

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Speaker 1: like well God told me, or you know, I fastened

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Speaker 1: and prayed about this, or if you're really spiritual, or

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Speaker 1: if you're really walking with the Lord, or I'm just

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Speaker 1: speaking truth, or this is my biblical conviction. Now, don't

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Speaker 1: get me wrong. We should all have biblical convictions, and

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Speaker 1: we should be following our biblical convictions. But I don't

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Speaker 1: want to throw something out there that I just want

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Speaker 1: you to think about. If someone is following their biblical convictions,

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Speaker 1: they will not need to announce it to the world.

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Speaker 1: You will know because their life will show it. So

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Speaker 1: sometimes when people announce I mean not always, but sometimes

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Speaker 1: when people you know, I'm just following my biblical convictions,

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Speaker 1: and it's said in kind of a way that is

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Speaker 1: pressuring you to follow their line of thinking too, it

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Speaker 1: can really be spiritual manipulation. And if we're a little

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Speaker 1: bit less mature in our walk with the Lord, we

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Speaker 1: can end up following people that really aren't following biblical convictions.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying, be really careful when people are throwing

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Speaker 1: out these spiritual platitudes because it could very well be

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Speaker 1: a form of manipulation. And be careful if you are too,

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Speaker 1: because again without meaning to, you might be actually trying

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Speaker 1: to spiritually manipulate someone. Because here's the truth. God's word

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Speaker 1: is never meant to become a weapon. It's meant to

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Speaker 1: point people to Jesus. See, Jesus never manipulated. Now, he invited,

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Speaker 1: he challenged, he confronted, he told the truth, He loved,

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Speaker 1: but he never coerced. In John chapter six, Jesus has

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Speaker 1: amassed a lot of followers, but many of them in

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Speaker 1: John chapter six walked away from him. And Jesus didn't

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Speaker 1: chase them with guilt. He didn't shame them, He didn't

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Speaker 1: start crying to make them feel bad and so sorry

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Speaker 1: for him. You know what he did. He simply turned

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Speaker 1: to his remaining disciples and asked him a question, do

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Speaker 1: you want to leave? Two? Now, think about that. Jesus

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Speaker 1: respected their freedom. Love doesn't coerce. Love invites. What if

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to this podcast and you're like, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: I think I may have been using manipulation. Like I

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Speaker 1: cry when I don't get my way to guilt people,

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Speaker 1: I try angulate by talking about the person, not to

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Speaker 1: the person. You know, maybe there's some things that have

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Speaker 1: popped out at you. So what do we do instead? Well,

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Speaker 1: Number one, just honest communication. So instead of hents, Say

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Speaker 1: what you mean instead of sarcasm, be vulnerable instead of

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Speaker 1: I'm fine, Try I'm hurt. Here's another thing we can do.

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Speaker 1: Respect other people's freedom, healthy request, allow people to say

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Speaker 1: yes or no. Manipulation cannot tolerate no love can. So

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Speaker 1: ask yourself one question. Whenever you're at tempted to control someone,

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Speaker 1: stop and ask what outcome am I trying to control?

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Speaker 1: Then ask what's driving me right now? Is it fear?

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Speaker 1: Is it pride? Is it impatience? Is it self protection?

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Speaker 1: Is it a legitimate need? Is it selfish ambition? Just

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Speaker 1: asking those two questions, what outcome am I trying to control?

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Speaker 1: What's driving me right now? Those two questions can and

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Speaker 1: earth what's really happening in your heart? And then finally,

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Speaker 1: just trust the Holy Spirit? Can I just tell you

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Speaker 1: something that's become incredibly freeing to me? I am a

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Speaker 1: terrible Holy Spirit. Maybe you are too. It's not my

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Speaker 1: job to convict people. It's not my job to force change.

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Speaker 1: It's my job to speak with truth and with love

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Speaker 1: and to trust God with the outcome. That's where peace lives.

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Speaker 1: So as you're closing up here, my friend, maybe the

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Speaker 1: Holy Spirit is gently put his finger on something, not

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Speaker 1: to condemn you, not to condemn me, but to free you,

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Speaker 1: to free me, to open our eyes to see ways

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Speaker 1: that we might have been trying to control things rather

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Speaker 1: than to trust God. Manipulation, frankly, is exhausting. We're trying

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Speaker 1: to manage everyone else's thoughts, everyone else's choices, everyone else's feelings.

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Speaker 1: That's a burden God never asks us to carry. And

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Speaker 1: here's the truth. I hope you will remember. Manipulation begins

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Speaker 1: when I stop trusting God with the outcome and start

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Speaker 1: trying to control people to get the outcome I want.

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Speaker 1: But the opposite is also true. Freedom begins when I

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Speaker 1: trust God enough to release my CP on other people.

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Speaker 1: I can tell the truth, I can ask for what

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Speaker 1: I need, I can set healthy boundaries, I can love well,

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Speaker 1: I can think of other people, not just about myself.

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Speaker 1: And then I can leave the results in God's hand.

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Speaker 1: The Holy Spirit is infinitely better at changing hearts and

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Speaker 1: outcomes than you or I will ever be. Well, friend,

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. If you did, would

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Speaker 1: you share it with someone you love? But if you

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Speaker 1: haven't already, I'd be so grateful If you'd subscribe and

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Speaker 1: we've read you and let's connect on social media. On Instagram,

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Speaker 1: you'll find me at Donna A. Jones on Facebook Donna Jones,

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Speaker 1: Speaker and Author, or jump on over to my website,

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Speaker 1: Donna Jones dot org where you can sign up for

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Speaker 1: my free monthly newsletter and find lots of free resources

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Speaker 1: over there as well. That's Donna Jones dot org. And

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Speaker 1: as always, my friend, I can't wait to see you

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Speaker 1: next time, for that's just what I needed