1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to I Wish You Could Hear This, where we 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 2: explore great stories and simple, proven steps to help you 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: thrive in life, faith, and relationships. 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 3: In our research, we've heard hundreds of Hopefield strategies for marriage, parenting, leadership, 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 3: and life that are grounded in science and consistent with 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 3: biblical truth, and now you can hear them too. 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: I'm Shanti Feldteon and I'm Jeffeldon. Life hands us hurt, 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: whether we want it to or not, and if we 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 2: ignore that pain or don't resolve it, it comes out 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: sideways in anxiety, unforgiveness, friendship, breakups, discontentment, and big feelings, 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 2: which ironically only hurts us more and probably hurts those 13 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: we love. But what if truly healing are hurt is possible? 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: And what if our healing could even help heal the 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: heart people we care about. 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 4: What if we just. 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: Stopped running from the hurt and instead run to a 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: God who can handle it and heal it. That's what 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 2: we're going to learn today on I Wish You Could 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: Hear This with our guest Willow Weston. 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 4: Willow, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: Thank you guys for having me. 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: We have had some tech issues trying to get into this, 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: so we are expecting this to be a really good 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: conversation today. 26 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: It's gonna be amazing. It is. 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 2: All that we had to climb, the hills we had 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: to climb in order to raise to you. So let 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: me just introduce you, Willow. You are an author, you're 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: a speaker, you're a podcast host. You've had plenty of 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: these tech issues yourself. You're used to this. You're a 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: conference curator, and you're the founder and director of Collide, 33 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: which is a nonprofit ministry that impacts thousands of women. 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: You're also a wife and a mom of two. 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 4: Wow, exhausted. She does a lot. 36 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: And you say love telling stories and inviting other people 37 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: to share theirs. And I particularly like something that you 38 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: say on your website, which is your You say, I'm 39 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: all people, all the time. Facts and figures bore me. 40 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 4: Which, okay, we get. 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 2: To collide with us as social researchers because we love 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: facts and figures. But you know, we also love a 43 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: good story for sure. 44 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 4: So we're going to let you get into the details 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 4: in a minute of how you started this ministry, Collide. 46 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 4: But first it's important to note that you just released 47 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 4: your book by the same name, Collide, Running into Healing 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 4: when life hands you hurt. Congratulations on your first book. 49 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 4: So I'm curious. How does it feel to have your 50 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 4: heart and soul in print for the world to read. 51 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: Terrifying, that's all I expected. It feels like a major 52 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: vulnerability hangover. I mean, my joke with the Lord is like, man, Lord, 53 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: why didn't you call me to write a recipe book 54 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: or like a ten places to take your kids bucket 55 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: list vacations or something something like that. But this book 56 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: is very much me flaying my life open and sharing 57 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: about the pain I experienced as a child and how 58 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: I desperately needed healing and how God showed up and 59 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: collided with my life and brought that healing. And now 60 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: He's using that pain and that healing to help other 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: people in their pain. And so I I the month 62 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: before this book released, I mean, I was like, oh 63 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: my gosh, I don't know if this is a good idea. 64 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if I should have done this. But 65 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: now now I'm a couple months in and I'm hearing 66 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: beautiful stories of the way the Lord's use in people's laves. 67 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 4: And so that so that leaves Clyde. I mean, that's 68 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 4: a word that I don't know, I don't use very 69 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 4: often in my life, at least not in really a 70 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 4: positive kind of situation. So how did you arrive at 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 4: that word? In doing so? Yeah? Tell us about your ministry? 72 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,239 Speaker 4: How that? Yeah? 73 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well that's a big story. But when I 74 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: had my second child, my mom, who I hadn't lived 75 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: with since I was fifteen years old, she actually got 76 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: rid of me when I was fifteen and another family 77 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: had to take me in. And so when I had 78 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: my second child, I was probably thirty two years old, 79 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: and my mom decided to move into my town and 80 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: be super grandma. And she knocked on my door one 81 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: ordinary day, and I went to the door and I 82 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: saw it with her, and she wasn't hurting me or anything, 83 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: but I just I looked out the people and I 84 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: freaked out, and all my childhood pain and experiences with 85 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: her of neglect and addiction and different things we experienced 86 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: y other just kind of came flooding forward and I ran. 87 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: I took my baby Bella, and I ran upstairs and 88 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: I hid in a closet because I didn't want to 89 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: let my mom in the door. I didn't I didn't 90 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: want her to come in, and so I didn't want 91 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: her to know we were there. And I had this 92 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: moment in the closet where God said, Willow, I've done 93 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: a lot in your life since you've given your life 94 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: to me, because the game my life to Jesus when 95 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: I was twenty one. He said, but there's more healing 96 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: that needs to take place in your life, and you 97 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: need to step out of this closet and you need 98 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: to get some help. And so probably within a week 99 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: of that, I was in a counseling office and you know, 100 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: she said, what brings you in here today? And I'm 101 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: kind of a little sassy, so I was like, oh, 102 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: I'm playing hide and go seek, you know, alone with 103 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: my baby. And but then I started telling her about 104 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: the history I had with my mother, and her immediate 105 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: response was that you need to tell your mom that 106 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: that you can only spend thirty minutes a week with her. 107 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: And the only way I can explain this to you, 108 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: guys is like felt like the counselor, like this presence, 109 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: the spirit of God came in the room and actually 110 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: yelled at this therapist. I don't normally act like that, 111 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: and I was like, no, that is not what I 112 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: am being called to do. And I just had this 113 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: deep sense that God was calling me to something more 114 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: than that. And the more was and all these words 115 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: started coming out of my mouth. I was like, I 116 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: was born into wounds. I collided with my mother's wounds. 117 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: She didn't get healing, and so her wounds wounded me. 118 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: And now I might wound my daughter. And I need 119 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: healing so that I can bring healing into the world 120 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: instead of more wounds. And when I look at Jesus 121 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: and he collides with people in the New Testament, because 122 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: I'd been spending the last ten years following Jesus looking 123 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: at his life, I'm like, when he collides with people, 124 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: he leaves them more whole than broken. And that's what 125 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 1: I want to do. I want to collide with people 126 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: and leave them more whole than broken. But I'm so 127 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: broken that I'm gonna hurt other people like I was hurt. 128 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: And so I started crying, and for myself but also humanity. 129 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: I started looking at all of us, you and me, 130 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: and and we we collide with each other, and we 131 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: wound each other if we haven't gotten healing, and if 132 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: we let Jesus heal us, then in all of our 133 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: collisions with other people, we can bring healing. 134 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: Healing the world. 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: Hurt, I said, I've hurt? Yeah, can I Can. 136 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: I mention something? 137 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 4: Yeah? I'm going to mention something. 138 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, all the mentions, guys, Yes, okay. 139 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: Because one of the sort of the big ideas, so 140 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: as as people can probably tell as they're listening, is 141 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: that people should run toward their pain instead of away 142 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: from it. And it's it's interesting that over the last 143 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: three years one of the big research projects that Jeff 144 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: and I have done because we have a book coming 145 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: out called Habits of Hope early next year, so in 146 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: March twenty twenty seven, if anybody's listening to this at 147 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: a different time, but in the point behind Habits of 148 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: Hope is we researched what are the habits of the 149 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: most resilient, joyful, hopeful, healed people, and one of the 150 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: habits was that they run toward their pain and steat 151 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: away from it. One of the habits. It's basically we've 152 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: gotten to this idea as a culture that the best 153 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: way to handle pain is to try to protect yourself 154 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: from it and to try to avoid being uncomfortable, you know, 155 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: stepping back from discomfort in order to feel better. And 156 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 2: one of the things that our study found, a lot 157 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: of different psychological studies have found is that that actually 158 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: backfires over time. It may be like a necessary boundary 159 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: for a moment, but over time it backfires. And so 160 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: I'd love to hear your personal explanation of why that 161 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 2: backfires and why people should run toward their pain, because 162 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: it sounds like it's a really good example this. 163 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of compassion for 164 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: all of us. We've all been through things that we 165 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: should have never gone through. But what happened was is 166 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: that we were taught to avoid pain. I mean, and 167 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: we were taught to avoid pain by hurting people, right. 168 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean, if you even think about what we do 169 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: with little children. We slap a band aid on their 170 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: knee when they're crying because we want them to stop crying. 171 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: We're like, you have a band aid, now, stop crying, 172 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: and the kid's lips quivering and they're like, still want 173 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: to cry, but they feel like they have to stop crying. 174 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,599 Speaker 1: But we've been invited to, you know, just pray and 175 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: get over it and pick yourself up by the bootstraps 176 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: and move on. And we've been told all of these things. 177 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: But the problem with pain is if you don't actually 178 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: heal it, it's unresolved and it stays inside of you 179 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: and it comes out sideways and it continues to hurt 180 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: your life. And so we have potentially a world of 181 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: people who are hurting and they need healing, but they've 182 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: been taught to avoid dealing with their pain, avoid having 183 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: to look at their pain. And I talk about this 184 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: in the book. I mean I had an alcoholic mother, 185 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: and why did she drink? She drank to numb her pain. 186 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: And because she numbed her pain, instead of running straight 187 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: into her pain, she started creating more and more pain 188 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: for her own life, for other people's lives. And so 189 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: our avoidance isn't working. It's not working. And I'm actually 190 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: daring people in this book to do what Jesus does. 191 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: If you look at Jesus, he is on an all 192 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: out pursuit to run into people who are hurting. I mean, 193 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: you look at him. You know he collided with the 194 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: woman who is hemorrhaging. She's been hemorrhaging for twelve years. 195 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: He collided with the paralytic the man on the mat, 196 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: the man whose hand was shriveled. I mean, he goes 197 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: out of his way to meet women who had crazy 198 00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: reputations and men that everyone else hated. He run into 199 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: these people because he knows they're hurting, and he wants 200 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: to actually help them recognize their hurting first so that 201 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: then he can heal them. And yeah, and and I 202 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: think what we're doing bye by teaching our our kids 203 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: and and our our spouses and our friends to avoid pain, 204 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: it's not working. And we need to say yes to 205 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: the invitation that Jesus has to go. Yes, I am 206 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: hurting and I do need you to heal me. 207 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 4: Well. You know, in hearing your story of you sitting 208 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 4: in your closet with your with your with your baby, 209 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 4: I'm struck by what you felt. The Lord spoke to 210 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 4: you in the sense that the for a lot of us, 211 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 4: we want God to deliver us from our pain. We 212 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 4: want it to be that Okay, you're you're healed now, 213 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 4: it's good, You're good. But the words you heard were Willow, 214 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 4: You're going to need to get out of this closet. 215 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 4: You need to take some action. You need to do it. 216 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 4: And God is all in that we want the instantaneous 217 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 4: healing from these wounds and these hurts and everything to 218 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 4: be okay, but you have to walk it out well. 219 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: Jesus said that multiple times. Stretch out your hand. You know, 220 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: healed it while the hand was standing there. Just it's 221 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: the things that he knows we need. I suspect to do. 222 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 4: So I just I was struck by that that you're 223 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 4: going to need to get out of your out of 224 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 4: this closet. You got it. There's some part that you 225 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 4: play in this, and that's what you guys were talking about. 226 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I see Jesus all the time inviting 227 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: us to per anticipate in the healing that we long for. 228 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us just hope to wake 229 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: up on a Wednesday and be well. And that's not 230 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: necessarily how the Lord wants it to work, because there's 231 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: something deeper. There's even a deeper healing that he wants 232 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: to do than just wave a magic wand over our lives. 233 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: And when God asked me to step out of the 234 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: closet and get help, if you would have just made 235 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: me better, I wouldn't have had to go back and 236 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: evaluate and name the pain and name the trauma and 237 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: think about the things that I went through and what 238 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: they told me about who God is, what they told 239 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: me about who I am, what they told me about 240 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: other people. I had a deeper invitation where the Lord 241 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: wanted me to really go backwards, which meant it means 242 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: you have to be really brave and allow yourself to 243 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: go back and feel hard things, to have hard conversations, 244 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: to admit to my dad, who felt like a no 245 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: show in my life, that I had so much anger 246 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: towards him and deep bitterness and resentment and hatred, and 247 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: have to have that conversation. If God would have just 248 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: waived a magic wand I wouldn't have had to do 249 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: these deeper things that created deeper healing on a way 250 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: broader level for my life. 251 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: And you know, as Corinthian says, you know, with the 252 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 4: same comfort we've been comforted with where to comfort others. 253 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 4: And it's kind of hard to say, well, just ask 254 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 4: believe for the magic Wand you know, here's how I 255 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 4: had to walk it through. And that is encouragement to 256 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 4: anyone else who is in that kind of condition or 257 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 4: state and they know, well, will omde it or she's 258 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 4: making it? 259 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I met a woman speaking at a retreat once 260 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: and I love telling her story because it I think 261 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: we can all resonate with it. But you know, I 262 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: met her after I spoke at the first session. She 263 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: came up and she was crying and she's like, I 264 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: don't know why I'm crying. I'm good. I have God. 265 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: And then after the next session, same thing, like I 266 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: keep crying, but I have a savior, Like I don't 267 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: know why I'm crying. And finally, by the time lunch hit, 268 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: I was like, let's sit down and chat. And she's like, 269 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: I just keep crying about something that was like ten 270 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: years ago to you, But I don't know why I'm crying. 271 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: And I said, tell me what happened ten years ago, 272 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: And she said that she was dating a guy and 273 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: they were planning to get married, and he didn't have 274 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: the same faith and the same values as her, and 275 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: she realized that she needed to call it off. And 276 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: she called it off and he killed himself, and her 277 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: pastors and her mentors told her, you're good, you did 278 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: the right thing, and you're good because you have a savior. 279 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: Move on, And here we were ten years later, and 280 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: I said to her, you're still crying because you're still sad, 281 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: and she was invited to just move on. But the 282 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: truth is is we actually need to recognize sometimes we're 283 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: still grieving because we're still grievous, We're still mad because 284 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: we're still mad, We're still bitter because we're still bitter. 285 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: We have to be given permission to recognize. No, there 286 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: are things that are hard. I said, someone killed themselves. 287 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: That's tragic. You have every every reason to still be crying, 288 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: every reason to still be sad. And just because you 289 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: know Jesus, and just because you have a savior doesn't 290 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: mean it didn't hurt. In fact, your Jesus is probably 291 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: weeping with you right now because it is so sad 292 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: that someone lost hope and gave up on their life 293 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: and that you struggled with blame over that. So I 294 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: think there's this weird thing in our faith where sometimes 295 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: we're just trying to whisk people's pain away because we're 296 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with pain, and so we it's just easier like 297 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: hand them a tissue, let me pray over you, to 298 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: get you to shut up and to stop talking about 299 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: your issues so we can move on. And it's so unhelpful. 300 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: It's so unhelpful. 301 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 4: So I love what you said just there about you 302 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 4: need help. So from your experience and from our experience, 303 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 4: if couples have hope, a sense of hope in their relationship, 304 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 4: they can make it through a whole lot of difficult seasons. 305 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 4: How did you keep hope alive while you were in 306 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 4: your own journey unpacking these things that were this is 307 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 4: so difficult? How did you? How did you manage to 308 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 4: get up and go Okay another day? I'm going to 309 00:17:58,400 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 4: keep moving forward. 310 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean I had spent, like I said, about ten years, 311 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, running into who Jesus is. And it's very 312 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: hard to spend time with Jesus and not have hope. 313 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: I mean I look at him and he walks into 314 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: tombs where there's total darkness, and he brings light in life. 315 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: And it's not just something I read. It's something I've 316 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: personally experienced in my life. When I look at him 317 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: and he weeps with Mary and Martha, I've personally experienced 318 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: him weeping over my own If you had, like if 319 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: you had been here, if you'd protected me from being 320 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: hurt and abused as a kid, if you had not 321 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: been you know, if you would have had my dad 322 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: come for me. Like I've had experiences where even as 323 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: real and raw and honest as I've gotten with God, 324 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: he's always shown up, giving me, given me every reason 325 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: to hope. So I feel like he's such a personal 326 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: God and he'll meet you in the most hopeless circumstances 327 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: if you allow him to. And I've never been without 328 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: hope since meeting him. 329 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: That's a great way of putting it. I I'm okay. 330 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 2: I want to ask a practical question because one of 331 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 2: the things that probably all of us has seen, and 332 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: it may be us that's experienced this, and maybe that 333 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: we've seen a friend go through, you know, really bad hurt. 334 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: Maybe they avoided it for a while, maybe they didn't, 335 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: but now they're trying to deal with it, okay, or 336 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 2: we're trying to deal with it. And one of the 337 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: things that happens on the opposite side is that people 338 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: get sucked in, and they get sucked in into their 339 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: hurt and it's like they're marinating it and they can't 340 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 2: climb out of that, and it ends up they get 341 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: there's this almost like this grievance mindset. We've all seen 342 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: this happen. Sometimes it's happened in our own lives. What 343 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: is the way that we can run towards the hurt 344 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 2: and run towards Jesus in the hurt without it becoming 345 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: a sort of a cycle of like almost bathing ourself 346 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: in it. 347 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I'm 348 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: thinking of a question to ask ourselves while you're asking 349 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 1: that question, which is do identify with being wounded? Or 350 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: do I identify with being an overcomer? I mean, I 351 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: think I've become in my own circles well known for 352 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: being kind of like the TMI lady that has been 353 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: so real about my pain. So I do talk about 354 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: pain a lot, But I identify with being an overcomer. 355 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: I identify with God's purpose my pain. I'm real about 356 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: my pain, and He's shown up and he's healed it, 357 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,479 Speaker 1: but now he's purposing it to help other people. And 358 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 1: I have met people along the way where it's almost 359 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: like they don't know who they are outside of this pain, right. 360 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: I mean, look at the guy in Scripture where he's 361 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: been sitting on a mat for thirty eight long years 362 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: hoping that he'd be healed by the waters, and Jesus 363 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: shows up and collides with him, and so the healer 364 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: standing right in front of him, and this guy just 365 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: longs for healing, and he's making all these excuses why 366 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: he hasn't gotten down to the water. And Jesus asked 367 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: him this profound question. He says, do you want to 368 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: get well? And if you actually think about that question, 369 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: you let Jesus ask you that question. It brings up 370 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: all these other questions because I've let him ask me it, Like, well, Willow, 371 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: if you want to get well, why are you acting 372 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: so unhealthy? Why are you continuing to engage in unhealthy behaviors? 373 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: Why aren't you reaching out for help? I mean, there's 374 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: just so many questions that that one question brings up. 375 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: But this man, I think Jesus is kind of calling 376 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: him out because he's like, you're more comfortable identifying with 377 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: the guy who can't get well then identifying with a 378 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: guy who is standing in front of a healer, and 379 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: you say, I need your healing, and then I'm going 380 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: to write a new story in your life, like Jesus 381 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: could write a new story in his life. And so 382 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: are you more comfortable with who you have been in 383 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: your wounded state than you are in the idea that 384 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: God could write a new story in your life. Do 385 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I don't think that gives you. 386 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily practical, but that's what my mind think. 387 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 4: It's a mind shift. 388 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 2: Well it's I think that's actually very practical. Ask yourself 389 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 2: that question. So I don't know if Jeff remembers this. 390 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: This is going back. You know, two or three years 391 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 2: we had lunch after a speaking engagement. We were doing 392 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: a marriage event I think, or maybe a sermon interview 393 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 2: at a church on a Sunday morning, and the pastor 394 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: and I don't know if it was the pastor and 395 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: wife that took us out to lunch. 396 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 4: Somebody took us out to lunch after we didn't have 397 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 4: to pay. 398 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: But there's no wonder you remember this. 399 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: And it was it was just a year or so 400 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: into me finding out that I had breast cancer, and 401 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 2: so I had had the diagnosis, had done the surgery, 402 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: had started the therapy, like all the all the things, 403 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 2: and discovered that this other wife who was sitting across 404 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: the table at lunch was about ten years ahead of 405 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: us on the journey, and that she had had breast cancer. 406 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: And it was now, you know, I was maybe a 407 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: year and a half in. She was ten years in 408 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: and it was interesting. I asked her, do you have 409 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: any advice for us, you know, as we go? And 410 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know what. I was expecting, 411 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 2: something about make sure you take your therapy drug and 412 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: you know whatever. And she looked at me with his 413 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: intensity across the table and she said, do not make 414 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: being a breast cancer survivor your identity. And I went 415 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 2: what And she said, look, I am proud that I survived. 416 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: I've done the walks, I've raised the money. Like you know, 417 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: I'm I wear the pink pin. But she said I 418 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 2: have several friends who they have they don't know who 419 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 2: they are almost without being a breast cancer survivor as 420 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: part of who they are. They it's just so much 421 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: a part of their identity. And she said it's something 422 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: that you know, when you have this pain and you 423 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: have this trauma, it becomes a part of you for 424 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: sure in some ways because it will always have happened 425 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: to you. But she put it something like, our goal 426 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: should be to get healing and move on where we 427 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: can help people, rather than not knowing who we are 428 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: outside of that, and it just strikes me that it's 429 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 2: a little it's not the same exactly, but it's similar 430 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: to what you're talking about. 431 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's an important conversation. I definitely think 432 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: some people can take this, this important conversation almost fast 433 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: forward people's brokenness and not make rings share right, Because 434 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: if I was to say what happens more, I would say, 435 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: we're we're more often than not giving people permission to 436 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: like run into their pain and be real about it 437 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: then than we are. Seeing as many people identify with 438 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: their pain, a lot of people just have not they 439 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: haven't been given permission to be real. They've either been 440 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: told they have to keep secrets, they have to tell 441 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: a different story than what happened in their family of origin. 442 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: That they're just they're they're the happy girl, They're they're 443 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: the fun girl. They just have to keep being that person. 444 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: And so that both both are important, right, Like I 445 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to air on one or the other where 446 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, like you need to get over your 447 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: pain and like be an overcomer, and that could look 448 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: like we're looking at this girl again who ten years 449 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: later she was never given space to grieve, right, and 450 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: so right. 451 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 2: Exactly right, we have to do both. And thanks for 452 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: letting us sort of process through this, because I'm guessing 453 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: that's what our listeners will be processing through too. But 454 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: you make a really good point, but it is really 455 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: easy for us to be here's a band aid. Please 456 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 2: stop crying, right like, please stop talking about how scared 457 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 2: you are about your breast cancer coming back, right Like, 458 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: I can see how that would be an issue too, 459 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 2: So thank you for challenging us with that, Willow seriously, like, 460 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: we need both directions considered. 461 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's so many people who've gone through 462 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: things that they haven't even realized they've gone through. And 463 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: when we can be the kind of friend or the 464 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: kind of mom or the kind of spouse where we 465 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: can help them to recognize it. I mean, I was 466 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: in a conversation with a woman once she reached out 467 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: to me. She said, she got a scary cancer diagnosis, 468 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: and she was terrified of hell and she was terrified 469 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: of heaven and she wanted to meet. And I sat 470 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: with her in my office and I said, you know, 471 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: a lot of people are terrified of hell and dying, 472 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: but I've never heard of someone who's terrified of heaven. 473 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that. And she said, well, 474 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,959 Speaker 1: I just and she started listing off all of her 475 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: church involvement. I grew up in the church. I grew 476 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: up in youth group. I went all the time, I 477 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: read the Bible, I was in small groups. I when I, 478 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: you know, I first had kids, I brought them, like, 479 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: but I haven't been involved since, I, you know, for 480 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: a long time. And like when I was younger, a 481 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: man used to hurt me and he told me to 482 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: be quiet, and he told me God wanted me to 483 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: be quiet while he hurt me. And then I did 484 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: do youth group and I did do and she's listing 485 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: all the stuff and I said, hold on, can we 486 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: rewind and go back to something you said a minute ago? 487 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: And she said what what did I say? And I said, well, 488 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: did you just tell me that you were hurt by 489 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: a man in church as a child and he told 490 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: you to be quiet? Like God's in on the abuse. 491 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: Are you are you telling me that you were abused? 492 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: And she just shook her head, wow, yes, And she 493 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: had never connected that her issues with God and now 494 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: her issue with dying and an after life and even 495 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: a good after life, the after life. We all say 496 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: we want like heaven, Like she connected it back to 497 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: what happened to her as a child. Here this man 498 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: sexually abused her and was connecting it to God in 499 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: her mind, and she had never drawn like a string 500 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: to that. And so I bring that story up because 501 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: that might be an extreme story. But there's so many 502 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: of us who've gone through things where we don't even 503 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: know we're carrying it. We don't even know, like we 504 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: don't even know it's there. And so if we can 505 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: help people by entering into their stories, asking them questions, 506 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: tell me more about that, tell me about your fear 507 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: about this. If we can be those kinds of people, 508 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: all of a sudden something unlocks for them where they realize, 509 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I thought God was like a man 510 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: who abused me. And then I got the opportunity to 511 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: tell her, like, if God is a God who's in 512 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: on abuse, I don't want to go to heaven either. 513 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: But that's not the God I know. The God I 514 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: know he loves us. He loves us so much he 515 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: would do anything, you would die for us, Like he 516 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: wants good for you, he wants healing for you. When 517 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: you get to heaven, there won't be any more cancer, 518 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: there won't be any more abuse, there won't be any 519 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: more crying children. It'll be perfect. You'll experience the most 520 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: perfect love. And I gotta like help her reframe something 521 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: about God that her wounder told her that she didn't 522 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: realize was there. And so I think it's so important 523 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: that we do make space for people. But we can 524 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: even do that. Back to your guys' conversation about people 525 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: who identify with being a victim, you know, we can 526 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: ask really important questions like, Wow, it sounds like you've 527 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: processed this pain a lot. Do you ever consider yourself 528 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: an overcomer? 529 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 4: Right? 530 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: Do you ever do you ever see a story that 531 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: God is writing with your pain where it moves from 532 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: pain to you bringing healing into the world, Like, I 533 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: think we can make space for people in a way 534 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: that starts to move them from wounded and not even 535 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: understanding how they're wounded, to a place of I'm getting healing, 536 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 1: to a place of I'm bringing it. 537 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 4: I hear all of this, and I hear your encouragement 538 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 4: to the mere mortals of all of us to be 539 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 4: involved and to be willing to engage with people who 540 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 4: are hurting. I'm putting myself in their shoes. I think 541 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 4: some are saying, yeah, that's well and good for Willow 542 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 4: to say she's got skills, she's got mad skills, she 543 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 4: can do this, she can draw people out. I'm just 544 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 4: I'm incapable. I don't know how to do this. And 545 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 4: as I was hearing you say that, I was remembering 546 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 4: I recently watched the Fred Rogers movie, you know, the 547 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 4: tom biopic of mister Rogers. A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. 548 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 4: I don't know if that was the title of the movie, 549 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 4: but in it there was this reporter journalist who was 550 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 4: writing a profile on Fred Rogers, and he made a comment. 551 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 4: He was standing watching Fred on the stage performing, you know, 552 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 4: his TV show, and he said to his Fred's wife 553 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 4: and he said, so, what's it like to be married 554 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 4: to a living saint? And Fred Rogers' wife looked at 555 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,239 Speaker 4: him and said, you know, I'm not particularly fond of 556 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 4: that term, because if you think of him as a saint, 557 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 4: then his way of being becomes unattainable. But he works 558 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 4: at it all the time. It's a practice. He's not 559 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 4: a perfect person. And what I take from that is 560 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: encouragement to those of us out there who feel like 561 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 4: we don't have the ability to be a good listener 562 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 4: or to draw out someone's hurt in a healthy or helpful. 563 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: Way, or even to be the person who has the 564 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: pain right and trying to overcome that. 565 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 4: And it's those small steps of working at it every day, 566 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 4: getting out of the closet. Exactly. 567 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: What are some of the steps willow that would help 568 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 2: somebody if they want to say, Okay, I do want 569 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: the Fred Rogers route, like I want to work at this, 570 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: What does that look like? What are some of the key, 571 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 2: like one or two practical things that we could do 572 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 2: so we don't end up being the person who passes 573 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: down the pain to our kids. 574 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know you have to. You can't 575 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: take anyone where you yourself haven't gone. So you can't 576 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: help people in pain if you aren't willing to deal 577 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: with your own. And so the first step would be 578 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: say yes to Jesus's invitation to begin healing your pain 579 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: and then take a next step to do that. And 580 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: that can look like so many different things, whether it's 581 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: making a call to go to therapy, whether it's you know, 582 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: inviting Jesus into a hurting space in your life through prayer, 583 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: whether it's meeting with a friend or someone at church 584 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: and telling them what's hurting and naming the pain, and 585 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: then just continue to take next steps towards your own 586 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: healing as far as helping other people. And you know 587 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: you said, Jeff something like, well, what if I'm not 588 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: like Willow or whatever. The truth is is that I 589 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: don't have a counseling degree, I don't have an MDiv. 590 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: I'm a business major. I'm a grew up an irreligious 591 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: hippie kid. There's nothing intrinsically special about me. But what 592 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: I do have that I think your listeners have is 593 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: that I've looked at the life of Jesus, and if 594 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: you really collide with the life of Jesus, you see 595 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: that he goes out of his way for hurting people. 596 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: He does not avoid them. And if you're avoiding your 597 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: own pain, I can guarantee you you're avoiding other people's pain. 598 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: But when you start to look at your own pain 599 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: and realize that God can meet you there and do 600 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 1: beautiful things, you start to get this passion that rises 601 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: up in you and you want to be more like Jesus, 602 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,479 Speaker 1: where you're going out and you're entering pain as hard 603 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: as it is. And so the only thing that I 604 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 1: have is just a willingness. And I you know, when 605 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: I first became a Christian, I became a youth leader, 606 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: like within weeks, which is absolutely nuts that this church 607 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: let me do that. And then they wanted me to 608 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: start speaking to the kids, and I remember I got 609 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: up and I shared a little piece in my story 610 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: about being kicked out by my mom's drunk boyfriend when 611 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: I was five years old. And this girl came up 612 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: to me after the talk. I didn't know how to 613 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: write a sermon. I'd never been a Bible college, but 614 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: she came up to me and she said, my stepdad 615 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: abuses me and I want your rescuer. And that was 616 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 1: the first moment where I realized that God can use 617 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: my willingness and he can use what I have. And 618 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: what I have is a story and I have a 619 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,479 Speaker 1: need for Jesus to heal me, and that's what God 620 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: can use for me. But God uses what we all have. 621 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: So whatever you have, maybe you have time and you 622 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: can just sit with someone and have coffee and ask 623 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: them questions. Maybe you have resources where you can help 624 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: someone get counseling because they need it. But God uses 625 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: what we have, and so I don't think it takes 626 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: you know, all of us going and becoming therapists and 627 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,959 Speaker 1: or pastors to sit with hurting people. I think most 628 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: of all, it takes a Jesus heart. And if you 629 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 1: look at the life of Jesus, that's what Jesus does. 630 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: He goes after hurting people, and we need to stop 631 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: being afraid to do it ourselves. 632 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 4: That's lovely. Wow, that's really really lovely. I mean, do 633 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 4: you want to keep that? I think it's it feels 634 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 4: like the last word or it should be the last 635 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 4: word Willow, because it's so that's true and powerful. I'll 636 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 4: give you the last last word if you want. We 637 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 4: know that people, we're all forgetful, we all miss things. 638 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 4: We listen and we go, gosh, I don't ever want 639 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 4: to forget that. If if there was one thing that 640 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 4: we shared you shared today, or if there's something else 641 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 4: you wanted to get to but we haven't that you 642 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 4: really really want the listeners to take and keep close 643 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 4: to their hearts. Could you think of that? 644 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I would say, don't dismiss your pain, 645 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: even if it feels small, because what is small can 646 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: grow bigger and bigger and bigger, and unresolved pain comes 647 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: out sideways, and you know, it comes out sideways on 648 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: the people we love the most. And so I would 649 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: want your listeners to know that, no matter what you've 650 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 1: gone through, bigger, small, you're worthy of healing. And Jesus 651 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: wants to heal your hurts so that you don't hurt 652 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: the people you love, So say yes to him today. 653 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 4: Wow. Okay, that's a good one thing. It's beautiful. Thank you. 654 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: How can people find you and your ministry, Willa? How 655 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: can they find your book? 656 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, thank you guys so much for having me on. 657 00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: I love your hearts, I love what you do. I'm 658 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: excited it for your book to come out. That's very exciting. 659 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 2: We are too. 660 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're gonna get there, guys, You're going to get there. 661 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: If people want to find me, they can hop on 662 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: Instagram Willow and Weston. They can come to my website 663 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,720 Speaker 1: Willowweston dot com if you want to get a copy 664 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: of my book, Collide Running into Healing When Life Fans 665 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 1: you heard it's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all the things. 666 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 2: So yeah, awesome, and we will put that in the 667 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: show notes. So I'm just going to say thank you 668 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: to Willow for being so transparent for coming on the 669 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 2: show today. We're gonna suggest that everybody check out her 670 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,720 Speaker 2: book Collide, and please, if you know someone who needs 671 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 2: to hear this conversation, please share today's episode and tag 672 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 2: us and tag Willow on all your social media channels. 673 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Willow for joining us, Thanks for listening 674 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 2: to I Wish you could hear this. Remember to subscribe 675 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 2: to our podcast, and as always, forward today's audio or 676 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 2: video link to a friend, counselor, or pastor who would 677 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 2: be encouraged. I just want to take a second to 678 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 2: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with 679 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 2: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 680 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 2: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in 681 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 2: their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 682 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 2: and more.