1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode Thinking Christian. 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer and I am joined today by 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: doctor Tamar Ostrom. 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: She is an assistant. 13 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: Professor at the Ohio State University and one of the 14 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: authors on a paper that's called Deaths of Despair and 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: the Decline of American Religion. And so while that may 16 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: sound like a really upbeat topic, we're going to be 17 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: talking about her research a bit and just trying to 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: understand what the implications of certain blue laws are for 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: this discos ession. 20 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: So I really appreciate you being on the show tomorrow. Welcome. 21 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 3: Thanks for reading my paper. Someone does. 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 2: It feels good, doesn't it? So why don't we start here? 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: Why don't you give us just kind of an overview 24 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: of what the paper's about and just that broad summary, 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: and then we'll dig into some of the points. 26 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 3: Okay, So we were interested in this question of to 27 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 3: what extent has religiosity affected this increase in what some 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 3: people call death despair deaths due to a suicide, alcohol overdoses, 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 3: and drug overdoses. So the broad picture is basically, does religion, 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 3: community ties things like that, does that affect health? And 31 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: so what evidence can we can we bring to that topic? 32 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: Is it in the vein? So? 33 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I've read the paper and some of the 34 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: things that sort of echoed for me were bowling alone, 35 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of idea that as the culture's 36 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: institutions tend to decline a little bit and crumble a 37 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: little bit, that you start to lose the sense of 38 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: meaning and self and identity and then these things are 39 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: more likely. Is that a Is that the way you're 40 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: arguing or is there something more complex about it? 41 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: I think I think that's like the hypothesis that we're considering. 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: You know, like a lot of people have speculated that 43 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 3: like your connections matter for your happiness, for your life expectancy, 44 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 3: and this is sort of one way of testing that 45 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 3: in here, Okay. 46 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: And maybe one other question before we dive into the article. Economics. 47 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: So I've read Daniel Kammons stuff, and I know he 48 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: was an economist, but I really don't know what that means. 49 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: So can you talk about your feel a little bit 50 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: your background and just give people a context for why 51 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: this topic would arise out of economics. 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 3: An economics paper? Why is why part of my description? Yeah, 53 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: that's a great question. So economics is so much broader 54 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 3: than I thought it was when I took like equal 55 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 3: one to one and had some supplying to Maan curves 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: and was like, honestly, this is very boring, which I 57 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 3: didn't realize until much, you know, many years after that. 58 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 3: So economics is just like the study of like scarce resources, 59 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 3: which is like anything. So we as economists have interpreted 60 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 3: that super broadly to apply to things like I'm a 61 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: health economist, so I study things like incentives and pharmaceutical innovation, 62 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 3: thinking about sort of you know, drivers of these, like 63 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: opioid overdoses. I have other things on, like, you know, 64 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: why do people get mammograms. It's just anything that's like 65 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: people making decisions under constraints, which there's always constraints in 66 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: the real world. It's economics, and we've become quite imperialistic 67 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: kind of and like the sorts of topics that economists study. 68 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 3: I think the one thing that ties these papers together 69 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 3: is sort of the way economists think about these problems 70 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 3: and like the toolkits that we use. 71 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so in this paper, just from my reading of 72 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: it and based on that description of economics, it's actually 73 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: really helpful. So it feels like the constraint that's lifted 74 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: off or what you call these blue laws, and once 75 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: those constraints are lifted off, then people are free, free 76 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: or maybe to make other choices. And these other choices 77 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: have implications down the road that aren't immediately obvious, but 78 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: that now ultimately sort of grow out of a meta 79 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: analysis of all this research, and you can see a 80 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: trend there is. 81 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: Is that the right way to think of it? 82 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: That's that's that's that's a great way of thinking about it. Basically, 83 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 3: like the broader question is sort of like why have 84 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: there been all of these? That's a despair? You know, 85 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 3: what decisions are people making? So of what what are 86 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: there like like economic and environmental like constraints? And then 87 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 3: this paper is like thinking about, yes, like what if 88 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 3: we change you know, the uh in this case, like 89 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: people's tendency to go to church? Yes, what consequences does. 90 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: That and what consequences that have? So talk a little 91 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: bit about the blue laws. I've referenced a few times, 92 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: but I thought that was a really interesting part of 93 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: the paper. And then I've got some follow up questions 94 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: just to clarify in my own mind. 95 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: Maybe what's associated with blue laws. 96 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: But go ahead and describe what the blue law is 97 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: and kind of help people understand how that interact your study. 98 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 3: Yes, so blue laws are just general prohibitions on retail activity, 99 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 3: usually on Sundays. So this idea is that like the 100 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: grocery store used to be closed on Sundays. I'm Dutch, still, 101 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: like in Holland and many European countries you can't buy 102 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 3: like milk or anything on Sundays. So that sort of 103 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: just like laws, we're regulating commerce on certain days of 104 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 3: the week, usually for sort of religious reasons. So why 105 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: you might sort of not be familiar with this term 106 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: is that, like currently most states don't have these restrictions. 107 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: So in the nineteen sixties and seventies, almost all states 108 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 3: had some version of these laws, and then over the 109 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: time period that we study, sort of in like the 110 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: the seventies and eighties into the nineties, most states repeal 111 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 3: these laws. So then you could go shopping on Sunday. 112 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 3: You could do something, you know, arguably more fun than 113 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 3: going to church. These considints are lifted. 114 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, because I mean, I think I can remember 115 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: times when I was younger. 116 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: So I was born in seventy seven. 117 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: Perfect for the study. Amazing firsthands. 118 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, when I got older and I could shop, I 119 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: can still remember going to the store and seeing people 120 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: not be able to buy alcohol. I wasn't old enough 121 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: to buy alcohol at the time, but you could go 122 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: to the store. But then there were certain even within 123 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: those stores, there were restrictions, like you couldn't buy alcohol 124 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: before noon. Let's say, Okay, I can remember those royals 125 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: being there, so yeah, go ahead, Okay. 126 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 3: So I do want to make a distinction that there's 127 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: sort of two types of laws. There's laws on like 128 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: can the store be open, and there's laws on like 129 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 3: can alcohol be sold? Okay, the laws that we study 130 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: are can the stores be open? So not directly about alcohol, 131 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: and actually a lot of states still have alcohol laws 132 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: in the books. I went to like brad School of Massachusetts, 133 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 3: where you couldn't buy alcohol I think before sometime on Sunday, 134 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 3: which you know, was not a part of my life 135 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: until suddenly I'd be like, oh no, do it five 136 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: minutes to buy the line? Yes, So we are not 137 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: directly studying changes in these alcohol laws, okay, and usually 138 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: there's sort of there's sort of separate laws on the 139 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: books for those two days. 140 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: So that's interesting. So that was one of my questions, like, 141 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: how how were those connected? So I'm glad we got 142 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: through that. Then my next question then is how I'm 143 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: like the connection between just being able to go shop, 144 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: moving away from church, and then having this increase in 145 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: deaths of despair becomes really harder for me to conceptualize 146 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: because you know, you can almost draw a straight line 147 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: conceptually without looking at any data. You could go, well, yeah, 148 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: people now could buy alcohol on Sundays, and so obviously 149 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: there's going to be more of this or there's going 150 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: to be more of that. But if it's just the 151 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: stores being opened and you can buy whatever it is 152 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: that you'd like, and all you're doing is staying away 153 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: from church, it's it's a more complex situation to understand 154 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: why these other deaths are happening. So how talk about 155 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: how you navigate that in the study? 156 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: What's what's going on? So the first thing is that 157 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 3: some other papers have looked at these lot changes and found, 158 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: like we do that when you sort of give people 159 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: more opportunities to do other things on Sunday, they do 160 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 3: they like go shopping, they like do other things, and 161 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: then this reduces church attendance and like affiliation. So what 162 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 3: people are sort of less likely to go, say weekly, 163 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: and they're also more likely to report they have sort 164 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: of like a weak affiliation with the church. This is 165 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: changing like behavior and like a little part of this 166 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 3: is like also some part of the identity or like 167 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 3: do you see yourself as someone who regularly attends church? 168 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 3: Is that a important part of how you would describe yourself? 169 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: And so then the question is like what what sort 170 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 3: of the downstream consequences of like that be and why 171 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: why would that effect uh death to spare down the 172 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 3: road and like yeah, that's like what we see. So 173 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 3: the actually I haven't actually quite gotten into like what 174 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 3: what the identification is in the paper. Basically different states 175 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 3: repeopled these laws at different times, and you can see 176 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 3: after states repealed the laws that a couple of years later, 177 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: deaths due to these sort of deaths of despair increase 178 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: in those dates, and then they don't increase in those 179 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 3: states where like these laws didn't change. H So. 180 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: You know, so you'd use the states that where the 181 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,839 Speaker 1: laws didn't change. Is almost like a control group. Yes, 182 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: and then as you saw a difference between the states 183 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: that released those laws got rid of them, then you're 184 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: able to see significant differences between deaths of despair and 185 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: a state that still had the laws versus death of 186 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: despair that didn't have the laws. 187 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so it's like a treatment verse control straight. 188 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: And then also like the timing of those lat changes, 189 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: like we should see effects earlier for the states there 190 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 3: earlier and later for the others. Yeah, and we shouldn't 191 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: see differences between those states before the law changed right 192 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 3: as well? 193 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: Right? 194 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: Yes, interesting, But I guess to sort of go back 195 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: to like, you know, why is this happening? I think 196 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: this is something where like the papers more speculative on, 197 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 3: so we looked at like social connections, like were those changing? 198 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 3: Were you sort of more less likely socialize with your 199 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 3: friends and relatives that didn't seem to change as much. 200 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: We did see sort of increases in not in like 201 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 3: safe drinking, like did you go to the bar with 202 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 3: your friends? Did you like occasionally drink? But we did 203 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: see increases in like self reported like unsafe drinking, did 204 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 3: you like drink more than you should? And things like that. 205 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: So potentially this is a story about you know, purpose 206 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 3: and like identity and like something like that or just 207 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 3: you know this. For many Americans, this is one of 208 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: the most frequent sort of social interactions. You have sort 209 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: of like the large part of your community. And if suddenly, 210 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: like your friends stops showing up or sort of you 211 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 3: stop showing up, potentially that would have sort of long 212 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 3: term consequences. 213 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to think, I mean, and again I 214 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: don't want to extrapolate too far from your data, but 215 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: having done some work in this area myself, where you 216 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: look at the proliferation of choice just generally, and the 217 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: way that that tends to fragment people and create this 218 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: ongoing desire for more right, Like we've all heard of 219 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: fomo right, the fear of missing out right, and so 220 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: it almost creates this underlying anxiety where I'm not doing 221 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: what I should be doing or what I could be doing. 222 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: There's so many other things I could be doing right 223 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: now and I'm not able to do them or what 224 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: have you. It just feels like that would tie in somehow, 225 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: But I don't reading your article. Obviously they weren't like 226 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: empirical results that would suggest that, But it just feels 227 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: like that's part of the context that we're creating with 228 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: some of these things, and that what you guys are 229 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: showing with these blue law repeals is that without certain restraints, 230 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: unind choice may not be the best move for all 231 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: of us. 232 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: I can at least say. 233 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 3: That that's same. I mean, yeah, there's there's these papers 234 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 3: sort of less like specific about this, but I agree 235 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 3: with that general concept, like in general, like you know, 236 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 3: there's papers that if you like, have the default to 237 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 3: be to save more for retirement. You know, people are 238 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 3: happy with that ten twenty years later than if you say, 239 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 3: you know, free choice, do whatever you'd like. And there's 240 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: you know, this whole food of economics on like you know, 241 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 3: people have your the present cells and their future cells, 242 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: and they're often in conflict and like sort of you know, 243 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 3: maybe the best thing for your future self would be 244 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,359 Speaker 3: to like invest in your social network and your friendships, 245 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: but the best thing for your current self is to 246 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 3: like you know, stay home today and relax, right, And yeah, 247 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 3: so like that you know potentially, like is a dynamic 248 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 3: that that's going on in this setting as well? Do you? 249 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: I mean again, you mentioned that people didn't spend less 250 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: time with their families and friends after these blue laws 251 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: were taken out, and that there really seemed to be 252 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: something about being in a local religious community that was 253 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: holding these other things back. 254 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: Is that a Is that a fair statement? 255 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the sort of a fair statement by eliminations. 256 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 3: It's like like it's like we didn't have like so 257 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 3: this is using sort of survey data on like you know, yeah, 258 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 3: did you do like did you go to church, et cetera? 259 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 3: And did you socialize with your friends? And we sort 260 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: of didn't see changing these socialization outcomes, like we do 261 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: people like going attending church less, but that doesn't seem 262 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: to s spill over into their like you know, do 263 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: you socialize with like friends, neighbors, relatives, things like that, 264 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: And so there's the questions like what what else is 265 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 3: going to church besides sort of you know, going to 266 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 3: your bowling league. You know, one aspect of it is 267 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: this sort of like identity and sense of maybe purpose 268 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 3: that it provides. 269 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: Did you did you all think about it or do 270 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:26,479 Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on church or religious community as constraint. 271 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: So you know, you have the blue laws that are 272 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: constraining retail, and they're eliminating those as choices, but most 273 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: religious communities are going. 274 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: To have. 275 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: Loose sets of rules in probably in the best case 276 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: right and and sort of a prototypical understanding of what 277 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: an ideal congregant is going to be, let's say, and 278 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: there's going to be the sets of attributes that tend 279 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: to guide people within that environment and say, yeah, I'm 280 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: not going to do this, I'm not going to do that. 281 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: So in addition to giving that sense of purpose, it 282 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: also does sort of box you in a bit more. 283 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I think I think that is like a 284 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 3: potential story as well that like could be going on. 285 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 3: It's not like the one results we have sort of 286 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 3: on this svein is that like people are not like 287 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 3: drinking more casually, So there's a sense of like, oh, 288 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 3: like you know, we don't approve of like alcohol in general. 289 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: It's not that like people are like loosely weakening that constraint, 290 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 3: but there's a lot of other sort of constraints that 291 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 3: sort of you know, have some costs, have some benefits, 292 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: that people might be sort of being differently without sort 293 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: of that weakly reminder of those social maps. 294 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: And it doesn't seem like, because I don't want to 295 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: overread this, but it doesn't seem like, let's say I 296 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: go to my bowling league instead of going to church, 297 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: and I have a few beers, and then all of 298 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: a sudden, I have a few more beers when I 299 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: get home, and I have a few more beers after that, 300 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: and this leads to one of the deaths of the space, 301 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: which is, you know, the sort of alcohol liver symbrone 302 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: kind of thing. It's not that straight a line, is 303 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: what I'm hearing from you. It's more like there are 304 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: going to be It was a pink As Cohn. I 305 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: don't think it was pink As con I can't remember 306 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: the gentleman's name, but he wrote The Tyranny of Small 307 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: Decisions kind of back in the late seventies. 308 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: Are you familiar with that at all? Okay? 309 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: Anyway, Yeah, he basically said you know, He's like, we're 310 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: all making these small decisions all the time, and we're 311 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: not thinking about the long term consequences of those small decisions, 312 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: and at some point down the line, we'll look back 313 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: and go, man, I kind of wish I hadn't made 314 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: that small decision back there, just look where it's led me. 315 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: And so I'm just sort of wondering, when you think 316 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: about it from an economic perspective, how do you really 317 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: think about these Obviously, changing the blue laws doesn't seem 318 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: like that big of a deal. 319 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, it doesn't. 320 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 3: No, And it's sort of you know, there's there's other 321 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 3: evidence that, like, uh, retail owners were sort of on 322 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: both sides of you know, should we do this, should 323 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 3: we not do this? People mostly sort of reality I did. 324 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 3: They're shopping across different days. It wasn't online. Now people 325 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: are like buying more and this is like a huge 326 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: change to the American economy or to the state's economy. No, 327 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: but I think I think this is all sort of 328 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 3: like one of the things that economists love to do 329 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 3: is sort of trying to think about like these unintended consequences, 330 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 3: Like nobody who was thinking about you know, should we 331 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 3: revealed the blue Laws was thinking, you know, maybe because 332 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: also like that this was in the seventies and eighties, 333 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 3: like oxen cotton wasn't a thing. And actually I think 334 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 3: that's that's I think one thing I literally want to 335 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 3: like highlighted about that about this paper is that this 336 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 3: is about sort of the very early increase in depth 337 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: despair that occurred before a lot before. 338 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: Oxyconoms on the market, THEOD crisis and those kind of things. 339 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think there is now very convincing 340 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: evidence that like you know, Purdue Pharma and like the 341 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 3: availability of opioids, like that these massively exacerbated these deaths 342 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 3: of despair. And so like, this paper is not saying 343 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: at all, you know, people should just be religious and 344 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 3: then we can we don't have to, you know, worry 345 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 3: about Purdue and various opioid formulations. It's just it's saying that, like, 346 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 3: even before all of this, something was changing in all 347 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 3: in like mortality, particularly for these sort of middle aged, 348 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 3: low educated Americans, something was changing, and it's and it 349 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 3: occurred at the same time that wegious affiliation was changing 350 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 3: for this group as well. So like what what maybe 351 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 3: connects those two, and then and then you're add in 352 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 3: all of these you. 353 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, you know, it's much worse. 354 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: How do you think? 355 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: So, my backgrounds in theology, right, so we get to 356 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: we get to play without a lot of empirical data 357 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: most of the time, right, we stay in you know, 358 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: in the in the theoretical side, and so statistics, my 359 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: eyes just kind of gloss over. But when you're thinking 360 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: about it from this level and you're actually trying to 361 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: figure out those you know, significant statistically significant connections and correlations, 362 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: how do you do a multivariate analysis like that where 363 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: you sit back and say, okay, we've we've noticed this 364 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: trend with the blue laws, and we've seen this and 365 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: this is really a cool correlation, and there you know, 366 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: there's obviously something happening here. Do you go back in 367 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: and study that same period and ask yourself, well, what 368 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: if we look now at this factor, do we see 369 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: that correlated in the same way? 370 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: What does that look like to do those things? 371 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 3: That's a great, great question. So it's like, you know, 372 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 3: we're wondering, does sort of change in religion affect us 373 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 3: to despair? There's a hundred other things that that sort 374 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 3: of could be going on. Right, Okay, it's a good question, 375 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 3: it's a trigger question. So what we do in this 376 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 3: paper is basically build this evidence that like these things 377 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 3: are related in time, they're affecting the same groups of people. 378 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: So it's like these middle aged, low educated groups that 379 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 3: are like experiences declined religion and these increase in deaths 380 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 3: to despair. We look at it at the state level. 381 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 3: States that sort of had greater decrease in religiosity had 382 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 3: greater increases in death to spare. And then the third 383 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 3: part that paper is like looking at these like blue 384 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 3: laws and arguing that like the states that had these 385 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 3: laws bigger things and everything else. So you're basically just 386 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 3: building as evidence, and the comparison group is like would 387 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 3: we expect you know, these relationships to occur randomly? And 388 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 3: then the tricky thing so like you know, we get 389 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 3: we get the result that like you know, uh, there's 390 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 3: a very small chance this would occur randomly just by 391 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 3: like you know, right, Uh, this correlation is like strong 392 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 3: enough that's unlikely duke to occur randomly. The tricky thing 393 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 3: that you point out is maybe this is this this 394 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 3: tell me this is what you're saying. Yeah, there's one 395 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 3: hundred things that could affect us despair, right, testimal, We're 396 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: gonna get five of them that pop up, yeah, as 397 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: to stick. So you know, if I was a very 398 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: bad economist, I would test one hundred things. I would 399 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 3: find five of them, and I write those five papers, 400 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 3: I would publish them, et cetera. Okay, hopefully that's not 401 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 3: what people do. There is is point of course, like 402 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: to some extent, you know this, you know, you know 403 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 3: economists response was scentive, like things like that, Sure, how 404 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 3: do you The way that I think about this is 405 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 3: like there's a handful of like you want to sort 406 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: of pre specify what you're going to like. 407 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: Consider understood beforehand. 408 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: Ideally, you like we all as economists would get together 409 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 3: and specify, like these are our top ten things. Are 410 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 3: now going to test them. Going into this, I think 411 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: this prior that social ties and community and for many 412 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 3: Americans that is, religion might have something to do with 413 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 3: you know, health and mortality seems like a compelling hypothesis 414 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 3: like bowling alone and all of these it's a really 415 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 3: strong like correlation. Yeah, so that's why we looked at 416 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 3: this one as supposed to the ninety nine other ones. 417 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 3: That's not to say, like some of the ninety nine 418 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: other ones, I think our part of the story, like oxytrotten, 419 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 3: probably number one. 420 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: Availability of these things has to factor in, and. 421 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 3: Like ours is maybe you know, number four or five 422 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 3: or somewhere in that ranking. And I guess, like based 423 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 3: on our priors and like other people's priors, this seems 424 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 3: like a reasonable hypothesis to test. Is that what your 425 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 3: question was? 426 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: It is? 427 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, because I think what I'm trying to figure 428 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: out is when we go back and look at this 429 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: practically right, there's a knee jerk reaction that would say, well, 430 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: this is an easy solve. 431 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 2: Just reinstitute the blue laws. 432 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: Oh right, you know, like the simpler But I mean, 433 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: and I'm saying, that's the knee jerk, Like this simplified 434 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: reading of what you did. 435 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 2: You'd say, well, we need to go back to that 436 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: same constraint. 437 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: But that's probably not going to work because at this 438 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: point we've got so many other factors around us that 439 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: returning to that point and saying, oh, if we just 440 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: put this back in place, everything will be fantastic, probably 441 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: isn't What's going to happen. Like we've gone from like 442 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: arguably across that period. 443 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: Again, so I grew up in that period. 444 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: So I never had, for instance, games scheduled on a 445 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: Sunday morning. If we had a soccer game or something 446 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: like that I was going to play, it was always 447 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: in the afternoon, and so you preserve that time for church. 448 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: You know, before that time that's not on the book's law. 449 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: That was just sort of my experience of it. Things 450 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: weren't scheduled over the top of church. You know, you 451 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: didn't travel anywhere near as much for sports teams that 452 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: didn't come in until I was close to out of 453 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: high school, you know that that started happening, And so 454 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: you've got all these other things to sort of glob 455 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: on now that just reinstituting one thing isn't going to work. 456 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: And so yeah, I'm just trying to think through like 457 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: as you think about your work here and you think 458 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: about practical solutions for folks, that you're kind of sitting 459 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: back saying what does this really mean on the ground 460 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: for people, or if you were going to inform on policy, 461 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: what does this really look like? 462 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 3: That's a great question. I think one of the other 463 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: this is Okay, I'll start with my cop on answer 464 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 3: which is that I most economists, myself included, like, I 465 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: see my role as like providing information and data and 466 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 3: being like, oh like if we changed if we did this, 467 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 3: this would effect have these consequences if it did this this, 468 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 3: And then you know, politicians voters can decide what set 469 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 3: of preferences they would they would prefer, Like my job 470 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 3: is to put numbers to these kind of factuals. My 471 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 3: you know, my preferences are just one of three hundred 472 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 3: and fifty million. So that's the common answer. 473 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: Is that, like you know, yeah, you know, yeah, totally fair. 474 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 3: That's sort of where I see role ending in the 475 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: in the more exciting scenario where I have some control 476 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 3: over policy, Yes, I this. I I don't see sort 477 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 3: of sort of adding constraints to people as being a 478 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 3: popular thing to do in general. Is in general, like people, 479 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: people don't like soda taxes, they don't like you know, 480 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 3: any you know, forced social security say like no one, 481 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 3: no one likes being told what to do, even though 482 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 3: you know it might be better in the long run. 483 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 3: So yes, so this and and of course like it. 484 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 3: You know, it gets a little bit you can't say 485 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 3: we're gonna have Sunday mornings off and sort of a 486 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 3: multi religion environment. But I do think from sort of 487 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: a more more personal perspective, I think this does make 488 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 3: me consider, Okay, you know, I want to make time 489 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: for these long run connections and things that are important 490 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 3: to me, even though it might be sort of convenient 491 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 3: in the short run. And then maybe there's there's more. 492 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 3: You know, we have a community center in our neighborhood. 493 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 3: It does a lot of wonderful like you know, pottery 494 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 3: and dance, like all these sorts of things, and sort 495 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 3: of maybe there's there's some more policy funding support for 496 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 3: understood things that would connect people. 497 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it feels like it does at this point 498 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: at least, And this is what I would just again, 499 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: having read through this and understood the connection with the 500 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: blue laws, I find it really interesting, but also recognizing 501 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: there's no chance of going back, right, there's not that's 502 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: the right, And so it feels like me it does 503 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: ratchet down at least one level, if not to you know, 504 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: maybe both to an organizational level where it falls to 505 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: real really like the places we work to be thinking 506 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,959 Speaker 1: through the implications that your article has, How is it 507 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: that we give now people time? How do we how 508 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: can we free up for our employees this space where 509 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: they could choose to go do this? And then on 510 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: an individual level, how do we as individuals start to 511 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: choose things that are better for us rather than worse 512 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: for us? And then, as you said, you know, how 513 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: do we fund some of these social organizations within a 514 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: given community so that when organization is actually going on 515 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: board with this, then people have the ability to choose 516 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: those like there has to be something there, And yeah, 517 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: it's just a really interesting sort of once the laws 518 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: are repealed, putting them back in place sort of probably 519 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: isn't going to happen, But you do see some of 520 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: this navigation even in policy nowadays. Like I don't know, 521 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: I think you could find an analogy in something like 522 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: parental time off after kids, you know, those kind of things. 523 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: Like you can see some of these. 524 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: Pieces where people are trying to poke this bear, but 525 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: certainly not going back to what you describe in your article. 526 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, like additional angle you added where there's so that 527 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 3: you can you know, individual choices you can make. They're 528 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 3: sort of like funding choices and they're also like your 529 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 3: work potentially, and there's there's some you know, more research 530 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 3: now on you know, you know, can people be just 531 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: a productive and a four day work leads in a 532 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 3: five day work week? And sort of and I think 533 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 3: you're posting an instant question of like, you know, if 534 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 3: you put some like no email on weekend's policy, long run, 535 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 3: might that be better for your employees? You know, potentially? 536 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 3: I think I think that's a that's an interesting and 537 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 3: like creative way of like approaching that. One one one 538 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: tricky thing with that is like, you know, these are 539 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 3: longer run benefits, and so you know, if you're happier 540 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 3: putting more proactive person and then you leave my firm, Uh, 541 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 3: that's annoying for me who has invested in you know, 542 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 3: all of these beautiful, you mal free weekends you just had. 543 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 3: So like the incentive somewhat worked better on like a 544 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 3: larger scale, but of course it's sort of harder to 545 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 3: get everyone to agree on what to do in a 546 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 3: larger scale. It is. 547 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: It is interesting. I mean I go to Germany periodically. 548 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,239 Speaker 1: I've been over there a number of different times, and 549 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: I remember the first time I was ever there and 550 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: I tried to go to the store on a Sunday 551 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: and it's like there's very little open I mean, you 552 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: could find a place, but it was not easy and 553 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: you had to you had to work hard for it, 554 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: and you just sort of look at that and you're like, well, 555 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: Germany is a pretty modern nation there there. 556 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: I don't know whether it's a law I didn't like 557 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 2: look into that. 558 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: I assume it is, but it could also just be 559 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: the choice of specific retailers to start coordinating and saying 560 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: we're just not going to have We're just not going 561 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: to be open here, or only some of us are 562 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: going to be open here, and you know, we're going 563 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: to manufacture this break. 564 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean then the trains around on time 565 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 3: in Germany, so like they said to be doing fine 566 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 3: with that without there they're shopping. But you you mentioned 567 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: I think a very cute key thing, which is this coordination. 568 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 3: Like if I'm the only shop open on Sunday, no 569 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 3: one no one is going shopping, no one's gonna come 570 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 3: to my store, no one expects it, so then I 571 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 3: might as well close and like enjoy the day with 572 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 3: my family as well. If everyone's open, I'm losing on 573 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 3: business thing like that. So it's sort of you know, 574 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 3: we you know, maybe everyone would love to coordinate on something, 575 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 3: but and that's that's hard to do in the absence of, 576 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 3: you know, more more societal regulations. 577 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering what you know. You said you're into 578 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,439 Speaker 1: health based sort of economics, and so as you look 579 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: at this study, you know, my mind went very particular places, 580 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: like the effects of remote work. I've been working remote 581 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: since twenty eighteen, and I'm sort of I'm starting to 582 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: feel aware and tear of it quite frankly. 583 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: I mean it's taken a. 584 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: While, but you know, there are days when I don't 585 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 1: leave my house and I'm like, what am I doing? 586 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: Like I built a gym in my house, I've got 587 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, I work out of my house. My family's 588 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: at my house, like we have groceries delivered. I'm like, 589 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: I've essentially eliminated any sort of social interaction that I 590 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: could possibly have during a day. 591 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering. 592 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,720 Speaker 1: It just seems like that would be an interesting area 593 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: to sit back and say, this is obviously going to 594 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: cause problems, and it just feels like it almost has to, doesn't. 595 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 3: It, especially across the sort of tenyere distribution. So there's 596 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 3: there's some interesting papers on remote work. I'm not I'll 597 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 3: send us I'll send you some details. But like, I 598 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 3: think one of the finance is that it's like, especially 599 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 3: the younger you are in your career, the sort of 600 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 3: the worst it is because makes sense benefit from all 601 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 3: these informal connections, you know, and then there's there's there's 602 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 3: benefits of course, you know, you can spend more time 603 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 3: with your family. I think it increases women in the workforce, 604 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 3: but then there's some longer run costs, especially if you 605 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 3: think very long term in terms of like you know, 606 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 3: the trajectories of young people and are they going to 607 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 3: get the mentorship that they need. This makes me think 608 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 3: one one policy that I that I think is some 609 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 3: of bad policy my my husband's firm, which I won't 610 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 3: do what they are They had a return to office 611 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 3: policy only for the junior employees and the senior people 612 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 3: all stay at home, and you're like, well, the benefit 613 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 3: would be to talk with these people. 614 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 2: So no, it's just interesting. 615 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I think as an entailment of your research, 616 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,479 Speaker 1: you kind of look at this and you can start 617 00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: to draw, like you get a vibe off of the 618 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: paper right where there's a sense in which this correlation 619 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: that you've described, you know, it shouldn't be applied just 620 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: to everything, right, So I want to avoid saying, hey, 621 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: just apply this to everything. It's a general principle now, 622 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: and we could you know, if this will solve all 623 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: the problems. 624 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 2: It won't. But at the same time, there have to 625 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 2: be these other trends that you're looking. 626 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: At and going, my gosh, we're exacerbating what appears to 627 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: be a real problem here, and so remote work came 628 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: to my mind. 629 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 2: But I'm wondering if there are any others for you. 630 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 3: Oh, I mean just in terms of like any metric 631 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 3: of socialization has like dramatically fallen in the past few decades, 632 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 3: and I think I think the decline of rigulosity was 633 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 3: sort of one of the early ones. So you see 634 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 3: in like the late eighties early nineties, religious attendance and 635 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 3: affiliation just sharply dropped the United States. But then just 636 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 3: like yeah, the share of teenagers who like socialize or 637 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 3: like you know, things like that has like also changed 638 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 3: changed a lot. More so, like I think there's natural 639 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 3: connections to like social media and like online versus in 640 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 3: person connections, and then those are things that like I 641 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 3: don't think this paper speaks to directly at all that, 642 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 3: I'd be curious, you. 643 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 2: Know, yeah, to look at channels. 644 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 3: Don't don't apply there as well? 645 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I mean I think the last thing and 646 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: I don't know whether you have any thoughts on this 647 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: at all, so feel free to say now we didn't 648 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: really I haven't really thought through that. 649 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: But you know, part of my interest is in what 650 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: could the church do? 651 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: Right, So it's one of these organizations that it could 652 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: actually provide some community, that can actually provide some things. 653 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: But I would also just say I'm a realistic right, 654 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: church isn't like the place you go to have a 655 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: lot of fun. Necessarily it's enjoyable, but it's in that 656 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: sort of uh, I have a yeah, I have a 657 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: degree of contentment while I'm here, but it's not like 658 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: a rock concert, you know. 659 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: So any thoughts or anything out of the data, maybe. 660 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: That wasn't even included in the paper that you'd suggest that, 661 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, as a church is looking at this and saying, wow, okay, 662 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: you've got these deaths of despair and whether our people 663 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: are you know, dying is a separate question. But there 664 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 1: are some things that we could do to build back 665 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: in a sense of community, a sense of purpose, a 666 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: sense of what have you that maybe we're not doing now. 667 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 3: I think my first reactions to this as someone who, 668 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 3: as you know, spent no time thinking about what various 669 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 3: relish leadership you do, but happy to offer opinions because 670 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 3: I think I think almost everyone is lonely and there's 671 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 3: some Yeah, like I think anything that makes connecting with 672 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 3: other people easier might be helpful in that regard. I'm 673 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 3: trying to so this is a very very sort of 674 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 3: a more civic to my situation. But we have we 675 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,919 Speaker 3: have a toddler and then we're having another another kid soon. 676 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 3: But just like if they're like, there's so many times 677 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 3: in life where maybe you could sort of meet people 678 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 3: that have sort of similar problems as you at that time, 679 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 3: and to the extent that like these groups are well 680 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 3: positioned to make those connections. 681 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 2: That makes sense. And I guess last question. 682 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 3: I want I want more daycare at churches. Maybe that's that's. 683 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: Listen, that's that's fair. 684 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I think, honestly, I think churches have figured 685 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: that out. Children's ministry has become kind of a big 686 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 1: thing because it's like nobody wants to I mean, I 687 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,439 Speaker 1: remember sitting in church when I was a kid. 688 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 2: I was horrible. 689 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: No one wants no one wants to do that anymore, 690 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: and there's no tolerance for UH children's service. 691 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 2: So now I totally get that. I'm wondering about if 692 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 2: you saw anything. 693 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: I know you're doing sort of a big macro analysis, 694 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: but I'm wondering if you saw anything that would suggest 695 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: why people chose to go to drugs, to alcohol to suicide. 696 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: In other words, you've got this plethora of choices about you. 697 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: What was it about those three things that caused the 698 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: increase in deaths of despair that just made sense to folks? 699 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,439 Speaker 2: Any any insight in that or is it just sort 700 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: of I. 701 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 3: Think that's That's where I'd have to say, I don't okay, 702 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 3: I think at that point, I don't think there's a 703 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 3: rational reason for that, and so so that we sort 704 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 3: of rely on. 705 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: But it wasn't like, like you said, the opioid increase 706 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff was well beyond the time 707 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: of the study, right, And did I understand that correctly 708 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: this study? 709 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: Yes? 710 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 3: So Actually, so if you look at these deaths despair 711 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 3: for this like middle aged group, I'm usually it's been 712 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 3: declining over the seventies and eighties and starting in the 713 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 3: nineties it stress to get and that that's the part 714 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 3: that we started, like why is this increasing? 715 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 2: Right? 716 00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 3: What's in the news now is like you why is 717 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 3: it explainly growing? And that's I think, you know, a 718 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 3: more structural like availability issue, But why does it sort 719 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 3: of start to increase? There is I think maybe where 720 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 3: this paper can come in. Yeah, but I think there's 721 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 3: a lot of you know, remaining questions, and I think 722 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 3: one of them is like, you know, what what is 723 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 3: the sequence of steps in between A and B? 724 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's a really interesting trend. 725 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: I mean, I found it fascinating to see this correlation 726 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: that you all paint there, because it is sort of 727 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: fascinating and I think it connects so much with a 728 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: lot of the things that I work with conceptually but 729 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: don't really have that empirical basis to it necessarily. You know, 730 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: you're just kind of looking at it and going, it 731 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: seems like it's happening. Is it really happening? 732 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 3: Yeah? No, it yeah, all cause mortality is has been 733 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 3: increasing for the past few decades and it's yeah, we'd 734 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 3: love to reverse that. 735 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: It would be nice, right, So what's next on the horizon? 736 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: For you, like what's your next big research that you're 737 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: involved in just out of curiosity. 738 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 3: So I'm a hell of economist, Like quite broadly, one 739 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 3: thing I'm working on now is new worm blood screenings, 740 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 3: And specifically I mentioned this question of like what happens 741 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 3: when you get a false positive for one of those 742 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 3: of those things. So for most of these screenings, if 743 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 3: you sort of pass this first flag, you don't actually 744 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 3: have this serious condition, you don't actually have cancer or whatever. 745 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,720 Speaker 3: And sort of thinking about sort of quantifying the additional 746 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 3: spending or sort of any any sort of costs and 747 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 3: benefits of that. Gotcha the paper I'm I'm actually working 748 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 3: on now. 749 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, very cool. Well it's a fascinating field and really appreciate. 750 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. 751 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: No, Definitely econ one on one did not give me 752 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: the sense that this was what it was about. So 753 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: and I do remember reading Conment and going how is 754 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: this economics? But I just enjoyed his book and so 755 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 1: I just kept reading. 756 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 2: It wasn't big. 757 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for being on the show today. 758 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: This is helpful. And uh, the article actually is available online, 759 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,279 Speaker 1: so I'm going to link it in the show notes. Uh, 760 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: and so people can can read through it if they like, 761 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: and I just I appreciate you being on this was 762 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: an interesting topic and just really enjoyed the paper and 763 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: found it interesting. 764 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,320 Speaker 2: So thanks great. 765 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, I enjoyed talking to you, so thank you for 766 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:51,280 Speaker 3: the for the good questions. 767 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right, everybody, Well we'll call it a 768 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: day there, and thanks for being here, thanks for being 769 00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: listening to the episode, and we'll catch on the next one. 770 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:00,919 Speaker 2: I think Christian take care. 771 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the 772 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on 773 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 774 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 775 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.