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Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey, doctor Kidd, thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Doctor Thomas Kidd, Professor of Midwestern Seminary.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you've written books on Thomas Jefferson, Visamin Franklin,

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Speaker 2: George Whitfield, Patrick Henry. You've also written general history books

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Speaker 2: as well, American.

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Speaker 1: History Volume one and two.

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Speaker 2: I think volume two has an updated and revised edition

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Speaker 2: coming out by BNH soon Post Reformation Christian History book

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Speaker 2: as well. So you've written books that all of us

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Speaker 2: have read before to learn more about American history. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to ask you before we as we start here,

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Speaker 2: one of the most highly debated questions in America today

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Speaker 2: is the founding of America and whether America was created

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Speaker 2: as a Christian nation or as a strictly secular nation.

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Speaker 1: What do you say, how do you how do you

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Speaker 1: view that debate?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, as usual, I think it depends on how

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Speaker 3: you frame the question. I mean, if the idea is

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Speaker 3: was Christianity influential on the American founder? And the answer

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Speaker 3: is clearly yes. I mean a lot of ideas, most

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Speaker 3: obviously equality by common creation by God. It's expressed. The

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Speaker 3: Declaration of Independence doesn't make sense without a belief in

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Speaker 3: a creator in a created order. But there are also

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Speaker 3: important ways in which we are not founded as a

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Speaker 3: Christian nation. Probably the most obvious one is that, unlike England,

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Speaker 3: we decided not to have an official state church. And

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Speaker 3: so in the First Amendment says Congress shall make no

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Speaker 3: law respecting an establishment of religion. That's basically saying, Okay,

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Speaker 3: England has the Church of England, which has tax support

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Speaker 3: and official legal status, but we're not going to do that. Instead,

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Speaker 3: we're going to emphasize freedom of religion for all religious groups.

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Speaker 3: And so there's a legal sense in which we definitely

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Speaker 3: were not founded as a Christian nation. But I think

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Speaker 3: as it played out, that actually make Christianity stronger in

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Speaker 3: America than it is today in England, which still has

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Speaker 3: an official state church.

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Speaker 2: Why is that? For those who don't call it your argument.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think it's because state run religion

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Speaker 3: is usually corrupt and ineffectual. I mean, and so for me,

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Speaker 3: as an Evangelical and a Baptist, I don't want the

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Speaker 3: government to run a denomination. I don't want official state

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Speaker 3: religion because generally throughout history, state religion has meant corrupt religion,

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Speaker 3: corrupt doctrine, corrupt church officials. They often persecute dissenters like

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Speaker 3: the Baptists were at the time of the American Revolution.

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Speaker 3: And so I would much rather put the emphasis on

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Speaker 3: religious liberty. And if that, you know, if that means

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Speaker 3: that we had a kind of a secular state at

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Speaker 3: the time of the founding, so be it. If that

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Speaker 3: means that we're really putting an emphasis on religious liberty.

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Speaker 2: So when that issue comes up, then who is most

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Speaker 2: right here or does each side have a colonel of

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Speaker 2: truth in terms of whether American is a Christian nation

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Speaker 2: or a secular nation?

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Speaker 3: Oh? I think that, you know, the founding, the actual

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Speaker 3: history of the founding kind of has enough to offend

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Speaker 3: both sides. I mean, you know, even someone like Thomas Jefferson,

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Speaker 3: who was the one who talked about Wallis separation at

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Speaker 3: church and state, was very comfortable with public expressions of

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Speaker 3: religion Christianity in you know, American governmental spheres, and you know,

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Speaker 3: would regularly host basically church services and government buildings and

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Speaker 3: things like that. But Jefferson also is the great architect,

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Speaker 3: one of the great architects of American religious liberty. And

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Speaker 3: believe that religious liberty was even for non Christians. And

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Speaker 3: so I think that neither of side in today's debate

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Speaker 3: really gets everything that they want from the founding.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned separation of church and state. That's debated constantly.

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Speaker 2: Is there such a thing as separation of church and

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Speaker 2: state constitution?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is. I mean it's really obvious what it means,

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Speaker 3: which is that the government chose not to run or

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Speaker 3: sponsor or an official denomination. This was not at all

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Speaker 3: a theoretical question. I mean, it was are we going

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Speaker 3: to keep doing what we've always been doing, which is

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Speaker 3: the Church of England in England and almost all the

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Speaker 3: colonies had an official denomination. It was either the Anglican Church,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Church of England, or it was the

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Speaker 3: Congregationalist Church in New England. And so we decided in

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Speaker 3: the Constitution in particular, to stop doing that. And so

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Speaker 3: that's the most obvious sort of black and white way

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Speaker 3: in which you have separation of church and state is

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Speaker 3: whether the government sponsor is an official denomination or not.

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Speaker 3: And we decided in that case to have separation of

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Speaker 3: church and state. That does not mean anti religion. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean anti Christianity. It doesn't mean that Christianity has

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Speaker 3: no public role in America, but in a really clear way,

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Speaker 3: it did not have an official legal role in the

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Speaker 3: national government.

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Speaker 2: So but it means something that is often not I

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Speaker 2: guess addressed or are said in these debates, because that

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Speaker 2: doctrine is often used to say, we shouldn't have God

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Speaker 2: on the coins, we shouldn't have God, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the halls of Congress, on walls as such.

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Speaker 3: Agree well, And those developments are very much a kind

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Speaker 3: of nineteen fifties to the present kind of development. So

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Speaker 3: what church state jurisprudence has become since the mid twentieth century,

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Speaker 3: I think has really warped the way that we argue

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Speaker 3: about church state separation. And so you know, when you

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Speaker 3: look at the time of the founding, it's often the

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Speaker 3: most committed evangelical Christians who are calling for church state separation.

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Speaker 3: Why because Baptists in particular were often viciously persecuted by

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Speaker 3: the state churches. So they had no interest in the

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Speaker 3: government sponsoring a denomination. They wanted the government to leave

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Speaker 3: them alone so that they could have full religious liberty

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Speaker 3: and preach the gospel and freedom. And so I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: want to forget about that kind of Founding tradition, even

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Speaker 3: as we argue against the excesses of secularists jurisprudence since

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Speaker 3: the mid nineteenth In the nineteen fifties, what did.

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Speaker 2: The Founders believe though, about religion's role in culture and government?

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Speaker 3: Well, as far as culture, I mean, there would have

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Speaker 3: been widespread agreement among the Founders, especially among people like

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Speaker 3: George Washington or John Adams, that Christianity was the great

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Speaker 3: source of national virtue. And they assumed that if you're

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Speaker 3: going to have a republic where the people quote unquote

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Speaker 3: are sovereign, you have to have a virtuous people for

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Speaker 3: the public to survive. So they certainly believed in a

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Speaker 3: strong role for the churches, but in general they thought

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Speaker 3: the churches will be stronger when they're free from state sponsorship.

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Speaker 3: So that's again the genius of the Founders, I think

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Speaker 3: on religion is that if we have religious liberty, the

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Speaker 3: churches will be that much stronger and they will be

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Speaker 3: more effective in doing what only churches can do, which

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Speaker 3: is to preach the Gospel see Lives Transformed by God.

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Speaker 3: And then that leads to the inculcation of Christian virtue,

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Speaker 3: and that that undergirds a strong Republic, so that, like

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Speaker 3: I said before, there's a very strong cultural role for

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Speaker 3: Christianity at the time of the founding. It's just not

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Speaker 3: an official legal role in terms of a connection between

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Speaker 3: the government and churches.

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Speaker 2: Lots of Americans today are questioning what they read about history,

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Speaker 2: and I'm curious for what you would tell those who

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Speaker 2: are in that can't. They're wondering at the history that

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Speaker 2: they hear and read is actually true history. What do

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Speaker 2: you tell people who are concerned about that issue.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think every person who writes on

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Speaker 3: history is coming from a perspective. I mean, certainly as

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Speaker 3: a Christian, I'm coming from a perspective when I write

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Speaker 3: about history. More often than not, I tend to think

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Speaker 3: Christianity and churches have a good effect in history in

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Speaker 3: spite of all the mistakes that they've made, and secular

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Speaker 3: liberals to not have that kind of view. So I

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Speaker 3: think it's important to understand who you're reading, what your

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Speaker 3: sources are. But I think even when you're coming from

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Speaker 3: a perspective, when you have a worldview you're bringing to

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Speaker 3: the table, but you can still be fair about about history.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, for me, when I am talking

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Speaker 3: about the fount I think I'm disposed to see Christianities

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Speaker 3: at least cultural and intellectual influence everywhere. But that does

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Speaker 3: not mean that all the Founders are Christians. I can't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean I wish they all were. I wish they

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Speaker 3: were all born again believers, and that would be awesome,

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Speaker 3: But I just as a factual matter, I can't say

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Speaker 3: that when you have people like Thomas Jefferson, who denies

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Speaker 3: the authority of Scripture, denies the divinity of Christ, denies

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Speaker 3: the Trinity, denies the Resurrection. As a Christian, I have

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Speaker 3: to say, look, he's not a Christian. And I think

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Speaker 3: you know, the trouble that Christians get into is when

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Speaker 3: they start trying to say, well, America is Christian, therefore

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Speaker 3: the Founders have to be Christians. And at that point,

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Speaker 3: I think you're risking confusing things about what the nature

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Speaker 3: of true Christianity is. And that's a price we should

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Speaker 3: not be willing to pay.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times, though it is debated over percentages,

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're a majority of them believers.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what do we know about that issue?

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Speaker 3: Well, if we're talking about the major founders, the five

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Speaker 3: or six founders that get the most attention, it's a

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Speaker 3: pretty mixed bag. I mean it's easy to tell that

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Speaker 3: Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians, you know, not they

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Speaker 3: didn't believe in basic Christian doctrine. And then you got

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Speaker 3: people like Washington, who you know, clearly is very respectful

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Speaker 3: of Christianity, but says almost nothing about his own personal beliefs.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we can hope that there was some substantial

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Speaker 3: faith there, but he just never says much about his

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Speaker 3: own beliefs and practice. But when you get out into

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Speaker 3: the broader Patriot movement, I mean there's thousands and thousands

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Speaker 3: of people involved with the Patriot movement, and I would

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Speaker 3: say the center of gravity there is just kind of

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Speaker 3: a basic traditional Christian belief. Now you know, whether a

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Speaker 3: person is actually born again or not. I mean a

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Speaker 3: lot of them were born again because they were influenced

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Speaker 3: by the Great Awakening that happened in decades before the revolution.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean that I think is clearly where

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Speaker 3: you have a very broad based Christian theological cultural influence

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Speaker 3: that is undergirding the revolution is in that broader Patriot movement.

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Speaker 2: I have a thousand questions for you, and you just

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Speaker 2: mentioned the Great Awakening. What impact did the Great Awakening

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Speaker 2: have on the founding of America.

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Speaker 3: Well, the Great Awakening is really the seventeen forty, so

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Speaker 3: we're talking about thirty years before the Revolution, and it's

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Speaker 3: the most important certainly religious event before the Revolution. But

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Speaker 3: it's also just a huge cultural and social upheaval. And

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Speaker 3: there were a lot of Americans who got converted in

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Speaker 3: the Great Awakening. And you can point to certain founders

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Speaker 3: like Patrick Henry, for instance, who I wrote a biography of.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was a teenager during that time and

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Speaker 3: his mother would take him to the revival meetings, and

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Speaker 3: you know Henry's beliefs and his even his style of speaking.

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Speaker 3: He's the greatest speechmaker of the Revolution, and he very

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Speaker 3: clearly learned how to speak in part from the revivals

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Speaker 3: of the Great Awakening. And even Henry's critics would say

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Speaker 3: that Patrick Henry he thinks he's a preacher or something

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Speaker 3: the way he talks, like in the Liberty or Death Speech.

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Speaker 3: So there's a deep, profound cultural influence knowledge of the Bible,

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Speaker 3: which is, you know, just universal, even among the more

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Speaker 3: skeptical founders. They know the Bible backwards and forwards. I

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Speaker 3: mean a lot of that I think is energized by

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Speaker 3: the Great Awakening. So whenever America is, say on the

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Speaker 3: eve of the Revolution, I think is heavily colored by

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Speaker 3: the Great Awakening.

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Speaker 2: But I've heard some historians say that it made the

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Speaker 2: Patriots for the first time doubt they're Britishism. Is there

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Speaker 2: any truth in that?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it is something that helps to give

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Speaker 3: the patriots a kind of sacred gloss on liberty. And

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've read whole books about this, So to

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Speaker 3: give the brief version, I mean, there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of issues at stake there about liberty and the meaning

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Speaker 3: of life and you know, the pursuit of happiness and

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Speaker 3: all these kind of cherished values that are coming out

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Speaker 3: of the Great Awakening. However, we also have to remember

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Speaker 3: that the Great Awakening is as powerful in Britain as

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Speaker 3: it is in America. The most important revivalist is George Woodfield,

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Speaker 3: who's from England and spends most of his career in England,

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Speaker 3: though he is fabulously popular in the colonies too. So

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Speaker 3: it is an Anglo America can event. And so we

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Speaker 3: don't want to go too far about saying it's only

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Speaker 3: an American thing.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you.

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Speaker 2: Circling back to people doubting American history. There was a

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Speaker 2: controversy in the past month as we record this on

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Speaker 2: social media about Rosa Parks, and I'm assuming you saw

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Speaker 2: that he maybe even addressed it, and there was a

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Speaker 2: prominent conservative he was saying, we've been lied to you

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Speaker 2: about Rosa Parks. She was not who we said, who

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Speaker 2: we were taught she was.

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Speaker 1: What should we believe about her?

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Speaker 2: And how would you recommend Americans when they hear something

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Speaker 2: like that addressing them?

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Speaker 1: I mean, where do we go?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Wow, I did not dig deeply into that social

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Speaker 3: I try not to get to din down the rabbit

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Speaker 3: hole with those kinds of things. But I mean, Rosa Parks,

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Speaker 3: I think, by all accounts, is a committed Christian woman,

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Speaker 3: and that is part of the real I mean that

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Speaker 3: episode of her being made to move to the back

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Speaker 3: of the bus, that was a planned event. I mean.

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Speaker 3: And the reason that they chose Rosa Parks is because

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Speaker 3: she was such a dignified Christian woman and so they

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Speaker 3: didn't want to get some scoundrel, right, They wanted to

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Speaker 3: get somebody who any reasonable person would be sympathetic towards.

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Speaker 3: So she's church going and very dignified and is just

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Speaker 3: the right person to represent the civil rights movement on

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Speaker 3: that issue. And I think when you look at the

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Speaker 3: rank and file of the civil rights movement in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifties and sixties, your average person in the South

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Speaker 3: who's engaged in the civil rights movement as a church going,

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Speaker 3: you know, believing person, so that the civil rights movement

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Speaker 3: very much comes out of, especially the black church in

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Speaker 3: the South.

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Speaker 2: But she's still an American hero in your mind, I

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Speaker 2: mean she is in my mind. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: trying to address what people were kind of getting at.

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Speaker 2: There is so many of these cases, these major cases

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Speaker 2: in American history, our test cases that are planned, but

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Speaker 2: it still requires someone coming forward and having the courage

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Speaker 2: to stand up and do what's right in order to

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Speaker 2: get to court. So I never didn't I didn't understand

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Speaker 2: the controversy when it was brewing on social media.

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Speaker 3: It was a test case, but they chose the right person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she still was arrested, and she still could have lost.

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Speaker 2: She still could have lost the case, and she still

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Speaker 2: could have been in jail for whoever, who knows how long.

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Speaker 2: Let me, as we kind of start landing a plane here,

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Speaker 2: Doctor get, I want to ask you about America itself.

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Speaker 2: Americans often think of themselves as unique, as different, as

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Speaker 2: having launched an unprecedented movement of freedom, and your view

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Speaker 2: is America unique?

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Speaker 1: And if so, how well?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm in American and mes you know, proud

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Speaker 3: to be an American, as late Greenwood says. And I mean,

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Speaker 3: so I like to think that there are very special things,

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Speaker 3: particularly a boy the founding tradition. We were the first

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Speaker 3: kind of great you know, democratic liberty based revolution in

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Speaker 3: world history, and so that's really important. However, as a Christian,

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Speaker 3: I also have to put some limits on that. I

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Speaker 3: mean that in God's economy, that we are one nation

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Speaker 3: among many nations, and that there have been a lot

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Speaker 3: of Christians in American history, but that those Christians will

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Speaker 3: just be part of the great throng of people from

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Speaker 3: every tribe, tony nation when everything is.

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Speaker 1: Said and done.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, my more profound allegiance is to

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Speaker 3: God's Kingdom rather than America in particular. But if God

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Speaker 3: let me choose, I would continue to live in America,

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Speaker 3: and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. So I

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Speaker 3: think it's perfectly natural to be proud of the good

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Speaker 3: things about the American tradition, especially in a year like

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, be sober about the bad things about

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Speaker 3: the American tradition. But I think it's important for us

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Speaker 3: to be able to be proud of the good things

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Speaker 3: in our national tradition. And among those, I would certainly

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Speaker 3: point to the ideal of equality by God's common creation

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Speaker 3: of all people, and also the tradition of religious liberty.

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Speaker 3: I think, just right there, those are wonderful things to

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Speaker 3: celebrateon in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 1: Many people don't like history. I love history. You love history.

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Speaker 2: I do, But I want you to explain to someone

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Speaker 2: who thinks history is boring why it's not boring?

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Speaker 1: Doctor kid? Why is history not boring?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that a lot of people their main

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Speaker 3: exposure to history was in you know, their high school

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Speaker 3: class when they had, you know, their football coach was

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Speaker 3: teaching them.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was just a.

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Speaker 3: Bunch of lists and names and dates and all this,

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Speaker 3: and that's boring. I mean, I wouldn't deny that that's boring,

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Speaker 3: But it's it's the stories that make it so interesting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's you know, the best kind of history

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Speaker 3: are really compelling stories that also happen to be true.

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Speaker 3: And so I mean, this is why I read a

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Speaker 3: lot of out of the novels and everything too. But

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Speaker 3: when push comes to shove, I'd rather read a really

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Speaker 3: engaging story that's also about real people. And that's what

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Speaker 3: you get in history. And so all the reasons that

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Speaker 3: great stories trymph tragedy, you know, all that it all

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Speaker 3: comes out in history, and so that that's why to

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Speaker 3: me it's so engaging.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in one hundred years people are going

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Speaker 2: to be writing around writing about our current history and

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Speaker 2: have some amazing stories as well. Tell me briefly about

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Speaker 2: your own research. You have a new book, revised book

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Speaker 2: coming out. I believe it's American History Part two.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the name of it. Might be an agency.

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Speaker 3: Volume American History, and we're doing a second edition, partly

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Speaker 3: because a lot has happened since the first edition came out,

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Speaker 3: but also there were just a lot of topics that

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, I didn't say you know

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Speaker 3: anything or enough about this topic and that and that topic,

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Speaker 3: and so that it's you know, I mean, some of

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Speaker 3: the stories about the Declaration of Independence and I left

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Speaker 3: that in there. But there's significant new content. And then

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Speaker 3: this August and September, I have a book I'm coming

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Speaker 3: out that I'm co authoring with Byron Johnson. This is

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Speaker 3: a sociologist that Baylor and a good friend of mine,

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Speaker 3: is called The Death of Religion, question Mark None's others

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Speaker 3: in the Flourishing of Faith, And we're basically talking about

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Speaker 3: what's actually going on and the religious landscape in America

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Speaker 3: and around the world. And the basic answer is Christianity

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Speaker 3: in particular is doing just fine.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to have you on the podcast to

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Speaker 2: talk about that because I write about that a lot.

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Speaker 2: So that does that deal with the kind of the

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Speaker 2: current movement of God around the world?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: That, and what do we make about the the nuns

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Speaker 3: phenomenon of people who say increasingly now that they have

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Speaker 3: no religion. And we're basically arguing, I mean, it indicates

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Speaker 3: something culturally is happening about that there's no stigma attached

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Speaker 3: anymore to not having any religion, but that it often

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Speaker 3: overlooks the fact that in these discussions about the nuns,

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Speaker 3: there are tens of millions of regular church going people

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Speaker 3: who never get counted in these discussions. And so it's

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Speaker 3: on one hand, it's like the nuns are taking over

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Speaker 3: American religion, but the group that we call the others

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Speaker 3: are completely unnoticed. So we would argue that American religion

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Speaker 3: is changing like it always does, but is this hardly

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Speaker 3: in decline.

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Speaker 4: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe

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Speaker 4: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks

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Speaker 4: to the team that Life Audio for their partnership with

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Speaker 4: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

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Speaker 4: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in

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Speaker 4: their network.

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Speaker 1: See you next time,