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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to The Becket Cook Show with your

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Speaker 2: host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,

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Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support

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Speaker 2: the podcast, visit Patreon dot com slash the Beckett Cook Show.

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Speaker 2: Please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a five

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Speaker 2: star rating.

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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to the show today.

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Speaker 3: I have two special guests, doctor Joseph Nicolosi Junior, who's

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Speaker 3: been on the show several times, and Rosario Butterfield.

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Speaker 1: The reason we're doing.

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Speaker 3: This episode is that Rosario reached out and she wanted

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Speaker 3: to talk about reparative therapy because she used to publicly

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Speaker 3: hold to the position that repairtive therapy was unbiblical, and

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Speaker 3: then in twenty twenty two she publicly repented of that,

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Speaker 3: and so we're going to talk about why she changed

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Speaker 3: her mind on this whole topic, and we're going to

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Speaker 3: get into a lot of details about the subject with

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Speaker 3: doctor Nicolosi Junior.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be fascinating.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of very interesting things that we're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about. But first award from our sponsor,

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Speaker 3: Please welcome Rosariah Butterfield and doctor Joseph Nicolosi Junior.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: It is an honored packett.

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Speaker 1: You guys are too much, Okay.

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Speaker 3: I want to start this episode today with a personal

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Speaker 3: tale of how I even got introduced to Joseph Nicolosi Junior,

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Speaker 3: which was pretty It was a I think it was

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Speaker 3: a god thing and it was pretty extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know when this was three years ago, maybe.

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Speaker 3: I started to kind of think about being sexually abused

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Speaker 3: as a nine year old by my friend's father. By

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Speaker 3: the way, I just contacted my friend for the first

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Speaker 3: time since that happened. I contacted him and told him

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Speaker 3: what his father did to me. It was bizarre. It

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Speaker 3: was like three weeks ago. It's the most awkward thing

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Speaker 3: in the world to call someone and say, hey, I

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Speaker 3: just want to let you know your dad sexually abused me.

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Speaker 3: But he seemed he seemed pretty shocked. But anyway, so

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about how I've never really dealt with

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Speaker 3: the sexual abuse. I mean, I've at my church, I've

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Speaker 3: talked to my elders and pastors. They prayed over me

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Speaker 3: about this many many times, but I've never it just

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Speaker 3: felt like it was this thing that I never really

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Speaker 3: tackled and so one day I was watching a YouTube

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Speaker 3: video and it was your father was doctor Nicolosi Senior

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Speaker 3: was on and what he said in that video resonated

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Speaker 3: with me so much. I just was like, what is

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, like he's reading my mail. He's reading

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Speaker 3: my childhood, like every part of it. And and so

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Speaker 3: I thought, So I looked him up, and I thought,

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Speaker 3: is he still alive? And I saw that he had passed.

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Speaker 3: And then I saw that you took over his practice,

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Speaker 3: and so I so I looked you up, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, he must be in like the South

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Speaker 3: somewhere or like, I don't know, he's not in California.

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Speaker 1: You know, obviously you couldn't be in California.

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Speaker 3: And then I found out you were in that West

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Speaker 3: Lake or a thousand Oaks and which is forty five

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Speaker 3: minutes from me and I and so I pulled up

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Speaker 3: your phone number and I was gonna call you to

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Speaker 3: make to kind of set up an appointment to talk

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Speaker 3: and uh, and then I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I ended up not calling you.

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Speaker 3: But then three weeks later I get an email and

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Speaker 3: it's from you. I had never contacted you, I had

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Speaker 3: never called you. But suddenly there's an email from you,

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Speaker 3: and you were it was.

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Speaker 1: It was an email asking about my show. And anyway,

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Speaker 1: it was so bizarre.

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Speaker 3: I was like, what, wait a minute, this is crazy.

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Speaker 3: And I called you immediately. I was like, this is insane.

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Speaker 3: I was, I was gonna call you. And so anyway,

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Speaker 3: we ended up. I ended up seeing doctor Nicolosi for

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Speaker 3: I don't know how long, like a year and once

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Speaker 3: a week for two sessions a week, and and we

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Speaker 3: we we tackled this issue that tried the child abuse, uh,

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Speaker 3: the sexual trauma blah blah blah, and and.

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Speaker 1: It and we we got in.

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Speaker 3: So much more happened, which I'm gonna give into later.

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Speaker 3: But one of the things that was fascinating to me

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Speaker 3: when I found out that my mother had been praying

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Speaker 3: for me for many, many, many years, and I my

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Speaker 3: sister in law sent me her prayer, her typed prayer

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Speaker 3: to God. One of the points on this prayer, on

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Speaker 3: this prayer for Beckett, it's called a prayer for Beckett,

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Speaker 3: is in your tender mercy, Holy Spirit of God Almighty,

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Speaker 3: give Beckett right Christian a rite, Christian psychologists or doctors.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, that was one of my by So that

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Speaker 1: was that prayer was answered.

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Speaker 3: And also I didn't know this, and I told you,

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Speaker 3: Joseph recently this My sister Mary and I were on

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Speaker 3: the phone and we were talking about you, and she said, oh, back,

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Speaker 3: don't don't you remember in the nineties the mom and

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Speaker 3: dad were trying to get you to go see doctor

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Speaker 3: Joseph Nicolosi Senior.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, what, I totally like block.

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Speaker 3: That out of my mind, Like in nineteen ninety two

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Speaker 3: they were trying to get me to see.

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Speaker 6: Your dad, and I completely forgot about that, and I

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Speaker 6: was like, oh my God, Like so anyway, it took

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Speaker 6: a generation, but I so my mother's prayer was answered.

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Speaker 3: And so anyway, I just wanted to get that out there.

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Speaker 3: So we said, so people understand why I even initiated

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Speaker 3: this whole situation with going to see you for for

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Speaker 3: help on this.

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Speaker 1: But and well we'll get to we'll get to.

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Speaker 3: There were two times in your office, and you may

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Speaker 3: remember that, but there were two times during sessions where I,

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Speaker 3: through this method that we worked on, I actually felt

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent heterosexual like and I felt for the

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Speaker 3: first time in my adult life or even since I

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Speaker 3: was a young child, I felt what it was like

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Speaker 3: to be heterosexual, and it was so such a crazy feeling.

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Speaker 3: And it also it just it made me feel like,

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Speaker 3: I can't believe that I've been robbed of a wife

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Speaker 3: and kids because of this like crazy evil thing that happened.

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Speaker 1: But also it just it just and in the the

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Speaker 1: that feeling.

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Speaker 3: Of heterosexuality lasted like two or three days and then

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Speaker 3: it kind of faded out, but it it was definitely there.

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Speaker 3: And you say, Joseph, that you told me I think

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Speaker 3: on the first day that that heterosexuality isn't necessarily the goal,

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Speaker 3: but it could be a byproduct. Can you explain that

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Speaker 3: just briefly before we go further.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So to step back, So, I'm doing what's called

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Speaker 7: reintegrated therapy, and the sexual attractions are the byproduct, not

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Speaker 7: the goal.

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Speaker 4: We treat trauma.

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Speaker 7: And in the exercise that you were describing, we were

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Speaker 7: helping you to stay in what's called a secure attachment style,

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Speaker 7: stay connected, connected to yourself, the feelings that are within you,

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Speaker 7: grounded in yourself and your masculinity, while imagining relating to

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Speaker 7: a woman and just see what happens. To see what

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Speaker 7: happens and that shift of feelings towards her it was

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Speaker 7: a byproduct of really of doing that. And this is

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Speaker 7: a little segue right here, but we train therapy in

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Speaker 7: the therapists in this We just did a class we

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Speaker 7: did We trained sixteen therapists in our basic training class.

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Speaker 7: And something that I am passionate about is taking these techniques,

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Speaker 7: publishing them in peer reviewed literature, and then training therapists

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Speaker 7: to do it so that this is information that's available.

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Speaker 7: No one's getting this in their graduate schools. We want

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Speaker 7: this information to be available to the public. So, yes,

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Speaker 7: there are ways that sexual attractions can shift. It is

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Speaker 7: a byproduct sexual abuse memories. We do trauma treatment on

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Speaker 7: the sexual abuse memories and the sexual arousal. The feelings

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Speaker 7: often shift on their own. So that is what I

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Speaker 7: am passionate about. I could talk all day about that.

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Speaker 7: That to me is exciting how the branw wires itself.

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Speaker 7: And that's what we were doing with you.

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Speaker 1: Well. One of the biggest things that.

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Speaker 3: I was kind of a lightning, a light bulb moment

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Speaker 3: for me in your therapy was the concept of eroticized envy.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that.

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Speaker 3: Really helped me understand what was going on beneath, beneath,

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Speaker 3: beneath beneath, and so can you explain what eroticized envy is?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 7: So my actually I want to I'm go back a

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Speaker 7: little bit. One hundred and fifteen years ago, Okay, Sigmund

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Speaker 7: Freud wrote a book calls a Psychosexual Analysis of Leonardo

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Speaker 7: da Vinci one hundred and fifteen years old, and in

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Speaker 7: this he said he'd only treat a small number of

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Speaker 7: men with same sex attractions. He said they tend to

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Speaker 7: have distant, critical relationships with their fathers, intrusive, immeshed experiences

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Speaker 7: with their mothers, and that these men were sexually attracted

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Speaker 7: to the specific features of other men that were the

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Speaker 7: same features that they felt they were lacking within themselves.

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Speaker 7: And since then there's an entire body of psychological literature

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Speaker 7: which has since been like covered over many study after

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Speaker 7: study say showing that men with same sex attractions, when

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Speaker 7: you go into the same sex attraction, they are actually

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Speaker 7: it's like in the psychoanalysts would say, it's a roticized envy.

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Speaker 4: That's all. It is.

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Speaker 7: That these are men who say, Wow, this man is

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Speaker 7: the walking embodiment of everything I wish I was. He's

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Speaker 7: the shocking reminder of all that I believe I should be,

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Speaker 7: but I am not. And there's an envy component there.

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Speaker 7: If I can't be it, I got to have it,

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Speaker 7: and that that is a driving factor. And many, many

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Speaker 7: people have noticed this. In fact, at the risk of

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Speaker 7: being a little dramatic here, I just want to show

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Speaker 7: the two of you something I looked into the literature,

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Speaker 7: because I learned nothing about this in my graduate school training.

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Speaker 7: You're not going to find any information about this. I

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Speaker 7: looked up how many published studies show male same sex

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Speaker 7: attraction is linked to distancritical relationship with the father over

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Speaker 7: involved in mes relationship with the mother, and that men

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Speaker 7: with same sex attractions are eroticizing the very things that

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Speaker 7: they wish they had but they feel like they don't have.

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Speaker 7: And this took a very long period of time. This

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Speaker 7: is it. I'm not making this up. This is a scroll.

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Speaker 7: What you're about to see is a scroll. Okay, I

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Speaker 7: had this printed at the printer down the street. Everything

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Speaker 7: about to show you is from a doctoral dissertation, a

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Speaker 7: medical journal article, or from the psychological literature, or a

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Speaker 7: direct case report in an academic book. Ready, this is

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Speaker 7: the number of citations.

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Speaker 4: This is it.

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Speaker 7: It just goes on and on and on and on

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Speaker 7: and on. This is all stuff that's being covered over.

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Speaker 7: This is all These are all real studies. This is

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Speaker 7: twelve pages all PA. Every If anybody doubts what I'm saying,

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Speaker 7: go to Reintegrate therapy dot com.

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Speaker 4: We're about to.

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Speaker 7: Release a video on this on our Twitter feed and

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Speaker 7: we're going to show all of these references. It's a

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Speaker 7: it's all of this information has been covered over by

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Speaker 7: a by an avalanche of political forces to suppress it.

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Speaker 7: The data is there, the information is there, and when

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Speaker 7: men see, oh, I'm attracted to the very things I

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Speaker 7: wish I don't, and that my same sex attractions are

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Speaker 7: a state and not a trait, that's very important. My

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Speaker 7: clients will say to me. When I feel more inadequate,

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Speaker 7: when I don't like my body, when i feel like

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Speaker 7: I'm not confident in myself, when I'm not relaxed in myself,

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Speaker 7: and then a good looking guy walks by and he

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Speaker 7: has all those features, I feel a much stronger attraction

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Speaker 7: toward him. And now on the other days, when I'm

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Speaker 7: feeling more relaxed in myself, I'm not self conscious, I'm

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Speaker 7: not second guessing everything I say, And another guy walks

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Speaker 7: by and he has those characteristics, the jolt is much smaller.

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Speaker 7: So that is an important distinction. We are being told

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Speaker 7: that these attractions are a trait, they're an immutable characteristics.

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Speaker 7: They're they're who you are or who you will always be.

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Speaker 7: You should create an entire identity around it. You should

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Speaker 7: even change your theology to base yourself around this. When

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Speaker 7: people start seeing, wait, this is a state and not

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Speaker 7: a trait, the entire structure begins to unravel.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, you say reintegrated. You call it

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Speaker 3: reintegrative therapy. Why why don't you call it repairative therapy

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Speaker 3: or conversion therapy for example.

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Speaker 7: Okay, so I know there's all these different terms because

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Speaker 7: the goal is not to convert anybody to anything different.

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Speaker 7: The goal is to help you connect to different parts

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Speaker 7: of yourself that you are at odds with, and that's

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Speaker 7: what we're doing. And the sexual attractions are a byproduct.

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Speaker 7: And by the way, we use the exact same techniques

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Speaker 7: for a heterosexual. If a heterosexual was feeling had unwanted

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Speaker 7: sexual attractions, let's say sexually compulsive behavior like pornography, addiction

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Speaker 7: or something like that, we'd use the exact same techniques.

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Speaker 7: So that's really the purpose behind the name.

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Speaker 3: And one thing we've never really discussed, Joseph is because

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Speaker 3: you work almost exclusively, I think with men, what about

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Speaker 3: women who have same sex attraction?

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Speaker 7: So eventually we're going to start to do a training

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Speaker 7: on that we have. I believe that women are probably

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Speaker 7: a little better suited in most instances to working with

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Speaker 7: the female therapist if they have unwanted female.

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Speaker 4: Same sex attractions.

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Speaker 7: I'm not going to say it's one hundred percent always,

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Speaker 7: but there are certainly benefits to that.

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Speaker 4: And so we just finished.

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Speaker 7: Our first training basic training course, No, not our first

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Speaker 7: which we just compare our largest basic training course with

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Speaker 7: sixteen therapists, a few of them are women, and they're

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Speaker 7: going to start to do these techniques with women with

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Speaker 7: unwanted same sex attractions. So the answer is that there

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Speaker 7: it is a different dynamic. I believe in the development

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Speaker 7: of same sex attractions for women versus men. With men,

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Speaker 7: it's very it's a more simple, reliable, predictable model. With women,

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Speaker 7: there's a greater degree of variation if people are.

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Speaker 1: Generally what's the generally what's the cause?

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Speaker 4: For women?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, like all things feminine, it's more complicated. So you

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Speaker 7: want it's gonna take me some time. I'll do it,

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Speaker 7: but it's gonna take time, okay. Is it is thought,

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Speaker 7: and I'm not an expert in this, it is thought

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Speaker 7: that there are three basic patterns and one pseudo pattern

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Speaker 7: the suit. Let me get to the pseudo pattern very simple.

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Speaker 7: A woman who had heterosexual attractions then had an adverse

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Speaker 7: experience with the men she was sexually abused or raped

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Speaker 7: or something, and for a temporary period of time she

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Speaker 7: gravitates toward women and usually those relationships are not very sexual,

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Speaker 7: but then and then she goes back to being attracted

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Speaker 7: to men. So that's like the pseudo pattern. But there

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Speaker 7: are other patterns that we see, and for those interested

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Speaker 7: who want to get a much deeper dive, there are

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Speaker 7: great resources on this. One of them is by a

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Speaker 7: women named Janelle Hallman who wrote a book called The

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Speaker 7: Heart of Female Same Sex Attractions. But so we will see,

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Speaker 7: I mean, we're gonna go non PC here. So if

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Speaker 7: you ask me the question, and let's just go for

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Speaker 7: many women who are the more masculine, much more overtly

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Speaker 7: masculine type what they will often describe as childhood. In fact,

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Speaker 7: I'll give a public example of a Christian woman who's

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Speaker 7: dealt with this. Her name is Christine Sneeringer. She's been

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Speaker 7: on another podcasts and you can listen to her childhood experience.

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Speaker 7: But we're seeing childhood abuse between the mother and the father,

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Speaker 7: and the girl is trying to make her gender identity

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Speaker 7: apart her. She's trying and macurgender a part of her identity.

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Speaker 4: That's the site.

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Speaker 7: That's one of the psychological tasks of the child. And

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Speaker 7: in some situations where there's abuse going on, the girl

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Speaker 7: will look at the father, look at the mother and say,

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Speaker 7: if that's what it means to be a woman, I

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Speaker 7: want nothing to do with that.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be like him.

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Speaker 7: I detach from her and disidentify from her, and I'll

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Speaker 7: make an attachment toward him, and imitative behaviors begin to follow,

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Speaker 7: and they want nothing. They disavow anything about femininity because

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Speaker 7: femininity is scary and dangerous. So that's one type that

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Speaker 7: we see, and they associate femininity often with weakness or danger.

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Speaker 7: I rarely treat women with one of the same sex attractions,

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Speaker 7: but I can think of one woman in my practice.

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Speaker 7: She had a mother who she longed for connection with

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Speaker 7: from an early age, and the mother was had like

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Speaker 7: nine other children, and this girl felt like her mother's

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Speaker 7: attention and nurturance were always out of reach, and she

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Speaker 7: felt an anger toward her mother, turning away from her mother,

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Speaker 7: and later on during periods of stress, during periods of loneliness,

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Speaker 7: she would have fantasies about women, and the fantasies were

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Speaker 7: always in the theme of getting nurturance in closeness, and

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Speaker 7: she was attracted toward younger women who she projected her

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Speaker 7: own younger self onto, and she wanted to give the

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Speaker 7: nurturingths to that she never got. So there are different

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Speaker 7: variations of this, and it's not the simple causal pattern

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Speaker 7: that we see. It's more predictable with the male, where

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Speaker 7: we see distant, critical father, more intrusive mother, and the

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Speaker 7: boys more sensitive temperamentally, that's more consistent. With women, it's different,

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Speaker 7: and we see more flexibility in women's sexual attractions. We

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Speaker 7: can see them much more often saying, hey, for five years,

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Speaker 7: I was totally happy being in this relationship with a man,

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Speaker 7: and then it shifted and I was attracted to a woman,

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Speaker 7: and then that it's kind of like relationships specific and

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Speaker 7: then and now I'm attracted to this man. So there

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Speaker 7: are differences in the arousal patterns even in the brain

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Speaker 7: between men and women that causes So it's more women's

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Speaker 7: sexuality is more context and relational specific.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I've talked about this before, but I

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Speaker 3: had a lot of girlfriends who from Brown Universit who

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Speaker 3: went to Brown, and they it was funny because like

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Speaker 3: there were five of them that were lesbians at Brown,

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Speaker 3: but once they graduated, they ended up dating guys and

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Speaker 3: now they're all married to men. So it was kind

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Speaker 3: of like this weird I guess college experiment. But Rosaria

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Speaker 3: what I mean, if you don't mind, like, what do

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Speaker 3: you what Joseph just said, where do you think?

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Speaker 1: What was your experience as a child.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's so funny because when I said

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Speaker 5: earlier that this is a podcast with the three of

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Speaker 5: us is where all friendships go to die, Now you're

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Speaker 5: gonna know what I mean because I really don't identify

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Speaker 5: with that. Even when I hear Joseph talk about eroticized envy.

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Speaker 5: I mean, envy is one of the worst sins in

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Speaker 5: the Bible. And so my you know my immediate question,

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Speaker 5: and I will answer your question about where I think

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Speaker 5: my homosexuality came from I will answer that question, although

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Speaker 5: I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that question, but

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Speaker 5: it does. I'm wondering about the recidivism if I, if

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Speaker 5: I could act, I mean, and maybe we haven't studied

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Speaker 5: this long enough to even know, But as a Christian,

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Speaker 5: my my dealing with my homosexuality came with the Gospel,

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Speaker 5: and with the Gospel came not only the hope of

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Speaker 5: not only being cleansed from the guilt of my sin,

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Speaker 5: but the promise that there was hope in being delivered

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Speaker 5: from the bondage of my patterns and my lust and

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Speaker 5: my compulsions. But I'm wondering if we're talking exclusively about

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Speaker 5: and maybe we're not, Joseph, you can correct me, but

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Speaker 5: if we're talking about a Freudian paradigm, and we're going

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Speaker 5: to analyze my you know, my same sex attraction, my

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Speaker 5: homosexuality as being a virtue of my childhood exclusively, where

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Speaker 5: does repentance fit in here? Because here's what I believe.

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Speaker 5: I don't believe anybody is going to go to hell

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Speaker 5: because they lacked therapy, but I'm pretty confident everybody is

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Speaker 5: going to go to hell if they lack repentance. A

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Speaker 5: Christian household. I don't praise God for that. I wish

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Speaker 5: I was raised in a Christian household. I was not

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Speaker 5: raised in a household where there was a healthy set

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Speaker 5: of boundaries modesty or decency. But I was not sexually abused,

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Speaker 5: and so far, I was never I was never raped

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Speaker 5: as a child. There was certainly things in my household

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Speaker 5: that no Christian would want in their household. And and

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Speaker 5: you know, my own father was pretty absent and incompetent,

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Speaker 5: and my own mother was pretty angry and controlling. So

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Speaker 5: I don't know, you can you can work with that

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Speaker 5: as you as you will. But you know, in college,

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Speaker 5: I didn't go to Brown. I went to you know,

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Speaker 5: a Christians Well, actually I was. It was a Lutheran

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Speaker 5: school in Ohio, mostly because I was a music major

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Speaker 5: and I was there for the music department. But I

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Speaker 5: did date men in college and then after college is when,

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Speaker 5: and and of course throughout throughout it I had people saying,

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Speaker 5: you know, are you sure you're not a lesbian? And

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Speaker 5: while I was dating men, you know, I was having

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Speaker 5: this uncomfortable experience of like dating a men, a man,

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Speaker 5: and enjoying the attention and the dinner dates and just

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Speaker 5: kind of all of a sudden, kind of sort of

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Speaker 5: being one of the cool kids, but then secretly privately

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Speaker 5: falling in love with a woman while that was happening.

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Speaker 5: And it really wasn't until I graduated college and got

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Speaker 5: to graduate school that I felt, I think safe to

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Speaker 5: just say, well, yeah, I'm a lesbian and that's where

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Speaker 5: we're going to go with this. And it was true

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Speaker 5: that when I after my first sexual encounter with a woman,

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Speaker 5: I just thought, well, this is just who I am,

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Speaker 5: so very much as you were saying, instead of a trait.

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Speaker 5: I believe, you know, I believed it was almost an

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Speaker 5: ontological part of who I was. But it wasn't really

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Speaker 5: for me until I heard the Gospel for the first time,

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Speaker 5: and that was not until I was thirty six years old.

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Speaker 5: So there was, you know, some water under the bridge there.

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Speaker 5: And it was specifically in hearing about Romans one and

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Speaker 5: Genesis one. It was learning that homosexuality is a suppression

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Speaker 5: of the truth in unrighteousness. Well, I thought I was

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Speaker 5: living my truth right, I mean, it was very strange.

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Speaker 5: But then in Genesis one is where I learned that

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Speaker 5: no God created only two kinds of people, men and women.

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Speaker 5: There's no such thing as a gay man or a

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Speaker 5: lesbian woman. That's not a that's not a thing. It's

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Speaker 5: not an ontological thing. And I remember, you know, during

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Speaker 5: that time reading the Bible, and I was reading the

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Speaker 5: Bible because I was trying to critique it, right, I

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Speaker 5: wasn't And you know, and I was meeting with Ken

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Speaker 5: Smith and Floyd Smith because I thought they were in

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Speaker 5: my unpaid research assistance for my post tenure book. I'm

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Speaker 5: basically trying to figure out why people like evangelical Christians,

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Speaker 5: that is, like people like the people we've all become,

420
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Speaker 5: wanted me to change what you know, Why couldn't you

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Speaker 5: just keep your keep your Bible off my body?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 5: You know? But but it was in realizing that if

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Speaker 5: God was wholly, an authoritative, and good, then his construction

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Speaker 5: of male and female was purposeful, not accidental. So God

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Speaker 5: isn't some kind of like a crazy engineer that builds

427
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Speaker 5: a bridge and it falls into a lake, and you know,

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Speaker 5: he made male and female for a purpose. And truly

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Speaker 5: I just had to look at my body to come

430
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Speaker 5: up with that, Like I didn't have to have much

431
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Speaker 5: more than just looking at my body to see that

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Speaker 5: that was true, and so when I was converted, I

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Speaker 5: did have a desire to be a godly woman. And

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Speaker 5: that was a really strange I mean, I laughed out

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Speaker 5: loud the first time I like even secretly prayed that

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Speaker 5: prayer because I've always been a jock. I've you know,

437
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 5: I don't know, like it just was hardly feminine, was

438
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 5: not And even today I will tell you that feminine

439
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 5: doesn't come naturally. I'm the kind of woman who needs

440
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 5: a uniform, you know. And if I if I if

441
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 5: I go out to Costco without my uniform and I

442
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 5: catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, I'm like, ah,

443
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 5: I'm popping out again, you know. So so I do

444
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 5: think those you know, so those are those are tender issues.

445
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 5: But you know, the beautiful thing about repentance, and again

446
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 5: I this is not saying that people who are traumatized

447
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 5: only need repentance, But for me, the beautiful thing about

448
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 5: repentance is that it it was life changing, it was

449
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 5: hope changing, and it made me realize that part of

450
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 5: my obedience to the Lord involved me actually being a woman.

451
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 5: That I'm going to be a woman for a turn.

452
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 5: Even my soul is the soul of a woman, and

453
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 5: so that is that was that was a non negotiable.

454
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 5: But there was a lot of pride in my lesbianism.

455
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 5: And I would say one of the things that that

456
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 5: I was thinking about on a long run. I was

457
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 5: a professor at the time at Syracuse teaching a queer

458
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 5: theory class, and and I remember on this long run

459
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 5: thinking to myself, is it possible? Because I was working

460
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 5: through Plato and Aristotle and categories of real and true

461
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 5: and the differences in continental philosophy, and you know, I

462
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 5: was thinking to myself, is it true that my lesbianism

463
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 5: is real? It's just not true? And it was. It

464
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 5: was things like that that really broke I think broke

465
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 5: my pride, and then of course really meeting the Lord

466
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 5: and realizing that you know, this whole time because I

467
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 5: wasn't a why at lesbian. I wasn't the nice lesbian

468
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,239
Speaker 5: next door with her golden retriever and her garden. I

469
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 5: was also a political activist. I was also testifying before

470
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 5: the New York Legislature and working on behalf of a

471
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 5: number of LGBT causes. AIDS activism was one of them.

472
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 5: It was the nineties in New York, gay marriage was another.

473
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 5: Although I thought gay marriage was hilarious. I mean, I

474
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 5: remember saying, I'm doing this for its political purposes, but

475
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 5: there's nothing gay of being married, you know. But if

476
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 5: these if these dupes want to go for it, okay,

477
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 5: we'll go for it. But you know, I remember when

478
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 5: I first really did meet the Lord, I realized that

479
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 5: that whole time, you know, all my political activism, all

480
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 5: my you know, teaching thousands of college students to despise

481
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 5: the Bible, to mockt all of that thinking the whole

482
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 5: time I was on the right side of history and

483
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 5: social justice, that it was actually Jesus I had been

484
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 5: persueing the whole time, and it wasn't. It wasn't just

485
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 5: you know, some historical figure named Jesus or like some good, good,

486
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 5: good man named Jesus. But but my savior, my Lord.

487
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 5: It was very personal. And so for me, my ability

488
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 5: to both understand my my my lesbianism and then and

489
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 5: then leave it. For me, that road really was repentance

490
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 5: and faith. But the trauma piece is not part of

491
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 5: my story. And so that's where I wanted to just

492
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 5: part of why I was excited to come on this

493
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 5: podcast with both of you dear brothers, is that one

494
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 5: of the dangers of creating a theology out of your

495
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 5: own experience is that you kill other people without realizing it.

496
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 5: You deny them a little bit of their own story.

497
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 5: You maybe maybe you shame them into not thinking they

498
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 5: have the right to say. But that didn't that wasn't

499
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 5: it for me. And so we create our theology out

500
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 5: of the Bible. That's that's where my theology comes from.

501
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 5: And then I'm a I'm a I'm a confessional reformed Christian.

502
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 5: I am like the opposite of ecumenical. I'm not even

503
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 5: ecumenical on Tuesdays, you know. Like for me, it's it's

504
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 5: the it's it's it's it's the creeds and the confessions

505
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,959
Speaker 5: that have really shaped informed me. But it's not always

506
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 5: about me, now, is it. It's about Jesus. It's about

507
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 5: the way that God has made every single human being

508
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 5: in his image. And it's the sad and hard reality

509
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 5: that you can be both a sinner and sinned against

510
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 5: And when you're trying to untangle that, you might need

511
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 5: more help than the help I needed. And I don't

512
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: want to deny anybody that I spent too many years

513
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 5: railing against It was called repairative therapy then so repair

514
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 5: itive therapy, and that was a sin. And so I

515
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 5: wrote an article like it was twenty fourteen, and I said,

516
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 5: this is false teaching, and you know, nobody should use it.

517
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 5: And then I think it was twenty twenty two. Beckett,

518
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 5: you and I were talking about this, because you were

519
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 5: very helpful for me in kind of thinking through this.

520
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 5: I ended up just, you know, making a public repentance

521
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 5: for saying that, because in doing that I heard a

522
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 5: lot of people, including Beckett, including my brother Beckett, whom

523
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 5: I love, I would hate. I would never want to

524
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 5: hurt you. I would never want to deny you the

525
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 5: counseling that you need. And yet that is the effect

526
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 5: of what my words in twenty fourteen did.

527
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I Joseph, I don't want to I mean,

528
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 3: I don't want to theologize this experience or experiences of men.

529
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 3: But Joseph, would you say that, for lack of better terminology,

530
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: would you say that in men it's more hardwired than

531
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 3: in women.

532
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 4: It's it's more, there's probably less sexual attractions, probably shift

533
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 4: less easily for men than for women. That's probably true,

534
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 4: it's less context specific. There was one study looked at

535
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 4: brain scans of men and men with same sex attractions.

536
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 7: Actually know this study that I'll reference. It was looking

537
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 7: at males and females, just looking at whatever was arousing

538
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 7: to them, and the connections between the pleasure pathways and

539
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 7: the occipital lobe, which is visual is five hundred percent

540
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 7: greater in the men than in the women. Like men

541
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 7: are very, very, very visual, and that may be another

542
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 7: reason why it's there's a They're not as fluid, it's

543
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 7: not as context and not as relational specific. So to

544
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 7: answer your I think, yeah, that it does take more

545
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 7: work with Matt generally.

546
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So Rosaria, what do you think about that comment?

547
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 5: It makes perfect sense. And Beckett, you and I have

548
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 5: been in this on the front line of this conversation

549
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 5: for enough years that everything we see bears that out

550
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 5: as well. I was wondering, I mean, it's it always

551
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 5: seemed to me that because women's sexuality tends to be

552
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 5: responsive rather than initiative, I've always thought it was just

553
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 5: in some ways, I don't you know, easier for me.

554
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 5: I was on a on a panel discussion with my

555
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 5: dear friend Kevin DeYoung, and he's he just kind of

556
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 5: pulled up a you know, just let me check Twitter

557
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 5: and see what people are saying about Rosaria today. Oh,

558
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 5: you're kind of a faker, You're you know, like it's just,

559
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 5: you know, you had it. You had it easy. You

560
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 5: had it easy. You were only a lesbian for a

561
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 5: decade and you know, you change. You know, it's just

562
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 5: you weren't kind of a real lesbian because you weren't

563
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 5: there long enough. And and you know, and the first

564
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 5: thing I thought when he said you had it easy

565
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 5: is I did after I was converted. I mean I was.

566
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 5: I was married to Kent Butterfield two years after I

567
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 5: was converted, and he is a wonderful, godly, gentle, kind,

568
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 5: helpful man. I don't know where I would be if

569
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 5: it weren't for Kent. Now, that's a very politically incorrect

570
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 5: thing to say, right, because what I'm actually saying is

571
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 5: the thing that helped me the most after my conversion

572
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 5: to the Lord Jesus Christ is being married to a

573
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 5: godly man. Now that sounds like I'm saying the opposite

574
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 5: of what Joseph was saying. Like, okay, and I'm not.

575
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm not saying the answer to homosexuality is

576
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 5: heterosexual marriage. As a pastor's wife who does a lot

577
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 5: of you know, marriage counseling with my husband, I don't

578
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 5: want to add to my lot to that. You don't

579
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 5: use marriage to resolve the problems that you need to confront,

580
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 5: either in your life of sin or your your trauma

581
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 5: in your past, or both. But how would I know

582
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 5: myself as a woman if I weren't a wife and

583
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 5: a mother and a grandmother. It's I can't untangle that.

584
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 5: And maybe that's what Joseph's talking about when it comes

585
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 5: to fluidity, relationality, and the general complexity of women exactly.

586
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: Okay, And and Joseph, I mean, what is the correlation

587
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: between especially because you work with men mostly, but between

588
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 3: childhood sexual abuse and.

589
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: Homosexuality? What's the correlation?

590
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 7: So is there is a correlation. There are numerous studies

591
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 7: that have shown this. This is a book here. I

592
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 7: had a feeling you to ask me these question, so

593
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 7: I have the book at the ready. This is the

594
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 7: handbook of the American Psychological Association, their handbook on Sexuality

595
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 7: and psychology. And the American Psychological Association has said when

596
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 7: I go to the I do state.

597
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 4: When I speak in different.

598
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 7: State, legislative meetings, the APA will come up, a representative

599
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 7: from the American Psychological Association will come up and say

600
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 7: to the lawmakers, there's no connection between childhood sexual abuse

601
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 7: and same sex partnering. There's no data on that whatsoever.

602
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 7: So I have to remind them it's in their own handbook.

603
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 7: Their own handbook admits that there is a link between

604
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 7: childhood sexual abuse and same sex partnering and in certain instances,

605
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 7: and that finding was based in part on literature that

606
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 7: was included a thirty year longitudinal study of documented sex

607
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 7: abuse victims. So, yes, there is a link. Is it

608
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 7: an absolute link, No, of course not, but there is

609
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 7: definitely an association in many cases.

610
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: What percentage of your would you say, of your clients

611
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 3: or patients have experienced childhood sexual abuse?

612
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 4: One third?

613
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: Okay, one third? So it's pretty strong. Yeah. So, And

614
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: I mean it's funny.

615
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 3: Because I I've.

616
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: Talked about this before, but.

617
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 3: As when I was living as a gay man, I

618
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 3: completely denied any that that that sexual trauma as a

619
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: child had anything to do with my sexuality because I

620
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 3: didn't want to conflate those two things. Because yeah, so

621
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: I I just just completely dismissed that whole thing, which

622
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: is ridiculous but.

623
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: So bizarre.

624
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: You say that another kind of pushback on this kind

625
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: on that before before the you repented of this, or

626
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 3: one of the other pushbacks on this kind on RT

627
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 3: Let's call it is the blame shifting away from repentance.

628
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 3: It is especially as it involves dunking on parents. Now,

629
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 3: how do you feel about what Joseph said about the

630
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 3: mother and father situation and the child.

631
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 5: No. I just think what Joseph said is absolutely practically

632
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 5: true in everybody's experience. And I think the other part

633
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 5: that I really appreciated that Joseph just said is that

634
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 5: it's not that those households produce one hundred percent people

635
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 5: who will call themselves gay, but they do produce people

636
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 5: who have things they're going to have to work through, right,

637
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 5: I mean, like that's not going to go away. But

638
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 5: what is true and you know this just from being

639
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 5: in a large family with a number of children. Even

640
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 5: though you had the same mother and father, each child

641
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 5: is going to interpret the household differently and interpret the

642
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 5: pressure of the arguing between the parents or the dynamics

643
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 5: between the siblings. And so there's again, you know, we

644
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 5: are fearfully and one or fully made. We are uniquely

645
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 5: image bearers of a holy God, with a unique set

646
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 5: of of of of capacity to to be hurt and

647
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 5: to give and to grow and all of that. So

648
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 5: I think, I think that makes perfect sense. You know,

649
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 5: I was I was speaking at an event. It was

650
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 5: probably a year ago now, and it was a strange

651
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 5: It was a strange event for me. It was a

652
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 5: church camp with a kind of a liberal denomination. And

653
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 5: I got there with a sense that this is like

654
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 5: a you know, like a bad first date, you know

655
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 5: what I mean. And then I was there for a week. Right,

656
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 5: You're like, oh, we thought we knew you. Oh, we

657
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 5: have to get through dinner now. But you know, at

658
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 5: one point going through I was going through the book

659
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 5: The Five Lives of our Anti Christian Age, and you know,

660
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 5: one of the realities for many of us who were

661
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 5: lesbian or gay and then came out is we realized

662
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 5: that we put together a constellation of things about our

663
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 5: life and then we believed lies. You know, I believed

664
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 5: I would that's a lie. I believed a lie, and

665
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 5: I believed a lie because of the way I put

666
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 5: together parts. And so I was talking about this and

667
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 5: I had a guy stand up and he's like a

668
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 5: football player guy, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to

669
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 5: have it now. And he just burst into tears and says,

670
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 5: I was sexually abused when I was, you know, and

671
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 5: it was it was a prepubestentce so I was, you know,

672
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 5: maybe ten years old, and I have never gotten over it.

673
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 5: And I've been in this you know, kind of denomination

674
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 5: and it's you know, run by run by women, like

675
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 5: you know, Pastor Barbara is every third pastor and you know,

676
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 5: you must be a feminist and you must run your

677
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 5: rainbow flag, and you must you must think drag Queen

678
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 5: Story Hour is great, and you must not have any

679
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 5: visceral reaction to the to what sodomy actually is, Like

680
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 5: you're never supposed to say sodomy. You're supposed to say SSA.

681
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 5: Like we work for the FBI. We don't even know

682
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 5: what it means anymore. And he said, I just can't

683
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 5: do it anymore. I have a visceral reaction and I've

684
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 5: never dealt with it. And you know I've you and

685
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 5: I both Beckett, we've fielded a lot of Q and

686
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 5: as we've been in a lot of hot seats we've

687
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 5: dealt with the secular press. I was other than I mean,

688
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 5: I was just completely stymied. I've never had that happen,

689
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 5: but it happened in part because trauma doesn't stay put.

690
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 5: And that's what I've come to realize that people cannot

691
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 5: sublimate it. And unlike sin, unlike indwelling sin. So a

692
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 5: lot of my homosexuality was motivated by indwelling sin. Right,

693
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 5: we are fallen in Adam Adam thumb prints you in

694
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 5: certain ways definitely corresponded with a great deal of cultural issues.

695
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 5: But you know, like me being more more masculine when

696
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 5: I was younger, and you know, those kinds of things.

697
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 5: But it was my sin to repent of. But what

698
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 5: would I do if it was somebody else's sin that

699
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 5: that launched this thing inside me that now is my sin?

700
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 5: How do I untangle that repentance? And that's where I

701
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 5: started to realize that I wasn't sure about this whole

702
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 5: reparative therapy thing or the reintegrative therapy thing. And I wasn't,

703
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 5: But here's what I was sure about. People have the

704
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 5: right to get the help they need and not have

705
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 5: like you know, the cool kids in Christianity, say you

706
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 5: can't go there? You know, why can't we go there?

707
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 5: One of the things that I really appreciate. Just if

708
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 5: I don't remember if you said this to me in

709
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 5: a text message or something else, but you know, free

710
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 5: thinking people aren't afraid to think about things. They're not

711
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 5: afraid to think about things that other people don't like

712
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 5: to think about. And I agree one hundred percent with that.

713
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 5: When I was an unbeliever, I had a little stick

714
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 5: them on my desk that said, I'd rather be right

715
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 5: on an important point than I'm sorry. I'd rather be

716
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 5: wrong on an important point wrong. I'd rather be wrong.

717
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 5: I'd rather be wrong on something that's important than right

718
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 5: on a trivial point. You know, I like, who cares?

719
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 5: You know?

720
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 4: So?

721
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 5: I So that was part of my own sense that

722
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 5: I wasn't sure about this reintegrative therapy. But here's what

723
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 5: I was sure about. I had sinned by declaring all

724
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 5: of it, you know, no bueno, verbatim, you know nothing

725
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,439
Speaker 5: you could touch? Why? Why? And then the other thing

726
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 5: is I started to realize how my words were being

727
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 5: inculcated in some of the anti free speech issues at

728
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 5: the political level. Right, I mean, if If Christians are

729
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 5: saying reparative therapy is not something Christians should do, then

730
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 5: that feeds into the LGBTQ idea that born this way,

731
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 5: stay this way, never change, and and and.

732
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: I'll make make it illegal.

733
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 5: Entire therapists and do all that. And I'll just go

734
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 5: out on a limb and say, I you know, I

735
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 5: think I think that homosexual sin is a is a deep,

736
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 5: deep sin. It's a dangerous sin. And and I'm not

737
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 5: saying that I don't think heterosexual sin is dangerous, but

738
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 5: not as much. And here's why. Because a man and

739
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 5: a woman in a heterosexually sinful relationship could come to

740
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 5: Christ repent of their sin and they have a future.

741
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 5: But two men, there's only one thing that you can do.

742
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 5: If you are in a gay relationship and you come

743
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 5: to Christ, you blow it up. You have to. That's it.

744
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 5: And so heterosexuality might be seen more along the lines

745
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 5: of God's co and grace. Now do you go to

746
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 5: hell with common grace? If that's all you have, that's

747
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 5: you go to Hell. But is it a stepping stone?

748
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 5: I don't think there's a stepping stone. I believe in

749
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 5: the actual conversion that the Bible talks about that the

750
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 5: Holy Spirit changes your heart Psalm one O three twelve.

751
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 5: As far as the East is from the west, the

752
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 5: Lord has put away our sin. Repentance can change your

753
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 5: destiny in a moment. But here's what we also believe.

754
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 5: We believe as Christians that conversion changes your past as

755
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 5: well as your presence and your future. And what I

756
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 5: mean by that is it changes your past. And so

757
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 5: far as you are a converted person and you now

758
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 5: have peace with your past, what if you don't, what

759
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 5: if you need help you not get that? Shouldn't that

760
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 5: be shouldn't that even be considered part of your repentance paradigm?

761
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 5: To have a Christian who is at peace with her

762
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 5: present and future, but is not at peace with her past,

763
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 5: is still a Christian with a root of bitterness that

764
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 5: is growing deep and wide, and it will strangle her.

765
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this short break, So I

766
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: don't know.

767
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 5: So I felt like people really helped put things together

768
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 5: for me and and other people too. Linda Siler's good friend.

769
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 5: She kind of pressed on me at one point and said,

770
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 5: didn't you adopt kids out of like foster care? I said, yeah, yeah,

771
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 5: we did. Huh would you have denied them therapy for

772
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 5: all the trauma they went through? Like, uh no, I wouldn't.

773
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 5: That would be criminal. So yeah, you know, so there

774
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 5: we are, right, So you and I, you and I

775
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 5: lived through all kinds of things back at that was

776
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 5: one of them.

777
00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean with Joseph, other than the kind

778
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 3: of concept of eroticized envy, which by the way is

779
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 3: uh oh well, we'll get to that in a second.

780
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 3: Why I mean, why gay men in particular are so

781
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: promiscuous and I Joseph, I think we've talked about. It's

782
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 3: just like you're just constantly wanting that male affirmation, that

783
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: that masculine male affirmation and an affection. So you're just

784
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: you're just like constantly seeking it out. And what you

785
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 3: said was sorry about the the you know, the other

786
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: benefits of therapy is just for me. With Joseph was

787
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 3: just getting this deep, deep understanding of things like eroticized envy,

788
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 3: things like, oh, this is why gay men are so like,

789
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 3: this is like they're they're constantly searching for this a father,

790
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 3: like a father who never really attached they never attached

791
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 3: to and and many other things. But that Joseph was

792
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 3: so helpful to me just to understand all the underlying,

793
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 3: all the underlying what's the word issues with that?

794
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 7: And that might be where the conversation is drifting to

795
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 7: a deeper topic, which is, okay, where do you Christians

796
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 7: place psychology?

797
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 4: Where do we do this?

798
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 5: Is?

799
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 4: Where do we draw the line? Is there an exact principle?

800
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 4: I don't.

801
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 7: I am a psychologist and a Christian. I don't even

802
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 7: have an exact answer to this. I know that when

803
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 7: I was in school to become a psychologist, people from

804
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 7: my church were saying, psychology is a big problem. Psychology.

805
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 7: The Bible is sufficient. The Bible is sufficient, and so

806
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 7: anything beyond the Bible to try to help you with

807
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 7: your inner conflict is a sin, and you're taking away

808
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 7: from the sufficiency of God. And they put me in

809
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 7: a situation by asking me, well, do you think the

810
00:48:58,680 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 7: Bible is sufficient?

811
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 4: And I go, I guess, so what am I gonna say? No, Yes,

812
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 4: the Bible is sufficient?

813
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 7: But then I think, but am I allowed to ask,

814
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 7: you know, if should I go outside the Bible for

815
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 7: other questions?

816
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 4: That is that wrong?

817
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 7: And then I have to admit these people are making

818
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 7: very the critics of psychology are making very good points

819
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 7: like so much of psychology is terrible. It's it's secular humanism,

820
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 7: it's Marxism. I mean, the new new new data are

821
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 7: showing and if anyone wants to look this up, Abigail

822
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 7: Schreier wrote her newest book about therapy, Bad Therapy, How

823
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 7: it hurts people, especially young people. The biggest meta analysis

824
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 7: came out, and this is I'm not going to surprise

825
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 7: anybody on this show, but on affirmative gay affirmative therapy,

826
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 7: how it's actually hurting people long term. That came out

827
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 7: last week. But in general, so it's it's probably incumbent

828
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 7: upon all of us as Christians and every person listening

829
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 7: to this right now to say, Okay, where do I

830
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 7: honor my Christian faith and where where is do I

831
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 7: I don't want to be guilty of throw the baby

832
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 7: out with the bathwater, but I also just don't want

833
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 7: to receive from my therapist because the therapists are becoming

834
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 7: the secular priesthood. This therapists are becoming. The questions that

835
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 7: people go to therapists for are what people used to

836
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 7: go in the past to their priest or their rabbi.

837
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 7: Now they're asking their therapists and like this is so,

838
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 7: but there, but there must be something. So what helped

839
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 7: me was this And I again, if anyone's looking for

840
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 7: a perfect answer, I don't have it. All I can

841
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 7: say is this was very helpful to me in navigating

842
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 7: this issue, in trying to honor my faith and not

843
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 7: be affected by secular humanism. But also gleaned from the

844
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 7: power of psychological studies in psychotherapy. There is a some

845
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 7: of you may may know this, Greg Cocol ko u

846
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 7: k l.

847
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 4: Greg Cokele is a Christologist. You know, okay, he.

848
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: Wrote, I was on tour. I went on a tour

849
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: with him and spoke yeah for six months.

850
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 7: Don't make this about yourself right now, right, yeah?

851
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 4: I know.

852
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: I love Greg Coco.

853
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 4: I told you about that in therapy. It's not doing that,

854
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 4: you know.

855
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 5: Now.

856
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 4: You know he has many people. Greg is great and

857
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:08,439
Speaker 4: he wrote a book.

858
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 7: He wrote an article it's free online called is the

859
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 7: Bible Sufficient? So anyone interested is the Bible Sufficient?

860
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,919
Speaker 4: You google it? Koukl Greg Coco.

861
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 7: He goes through this and he parses it out very well,

862
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 7: and he makes a very interesting point. He talks about

863
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 7: how there are specific verses in the Bible that tell

864
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 7: us to go outside of the Bible for wisdom, which

865
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,240
Speaker 7: is like a complete mind blowing experience for the hardcore

866
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 7: biblical counselors. Several a couple of them are in Proverbs.

867
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 7: I think one is an Ecclesiastes Proverbs twenty.

868
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 4: Four is one of them.

869
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 7: So there are examples that cocol goes into it very

870
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 7: well and he splices it for those who are interested.

871
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 4: But certainly there are two extremes.

872
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 7: One is to dump everything every psychological has study has

873
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 7: ever said and call it psychobabble. And another one is

874
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 7: to just unquestioningly accept what therapists say, and those are

875
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 7: both severe errors. We have to slow down, think through

876
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 7: this and look at what scripture says and make that

877
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 7: a part of our a deeper method in which we

878
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 7: understand truth.

879
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead.

880
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 5: Could I just add also, I would say Westminster Shorter

881
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 5: Catechism number three is really helpful. It says what do

882
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 5: the scriptures principally teach? And the answer is the scriptures

883
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 5: principally teach what man is to believe concerning God and

884
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 5: what duty God requires of man. There are a number

885
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 5: of scripture verses, including you know, you know Tewo Timothy

886
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 5: that the Word of God is God breathed. But again,

887
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 5: when we're talking about that is that is a very

888
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 5: comprehensive statement, but it doesn't explain everything. It certainly doesn't

889
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 5: explain everything. And so I think to teach rather than

890
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 5: to outlaw psychology. I mean, you know, we want I

891
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 5: want Christians to take over every single academic field in

892
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 5: every single Tier one research university. Okay, like what is rosaria?

893
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 5: As you know, lie in bed at night and pray

894
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 5: about that's it. I want every single Tier one research university,

895
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 5: in every single academic discipline to be run by Christians.

896
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 5: And I think it would be amazing. And if that happened,

897
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 5: then those Christian practitioners would be teaching all of their

898
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 5: students to be like the Brians. And so if you're

899
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 5: being like the Brians and you would test what your

900
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 5: therapist says, you would immediately be able to know whether

901
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 5: you should flee or not. But obviously there's there's a

902
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 5: lot of power given to anybody who is going to

903
00:53:54,360 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 5: disciple you. It's not just the psychologist, but anybody who's

904
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 5: discipling you, your professor, your dissertation director. That person has

905
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 5: a lot of power and you have to be ready.

906
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 5: The Christian under that discipling relationship needs to be ready

907
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 5: to learn how to be a little bit self defensive

908
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 5: and make an exit if you need to.

909
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if you remember this, Joseph, but

910
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 3: the first day and I saw you, I asked you directly,

911
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 3: I said, now do you I knew you were a Christian,

912
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 3: but an evangelical Christian, and I said to you, I

913
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 3: asked you, do you believe that this homosexuality is a psychological.

914
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: Issue or moral issue? And you said both?

915
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, they're IMPLICATD It's exactly right. Like anything, we're

916
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,760
Speaker 7: soul and body, so we have the way our brains

917
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 7: are wired.

918
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 4: And there's a spiritual component.

919
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 7: And it's an oversimplification to say anything is all that

920
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 7: unwanted sexual tra actions of any kind are simply spiritual

921
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 7: issues or simply psychological issues in all cases, In many cases,

922
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 7: there's some mix. Maybe it's ninety nine fifty to fifty.

923
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 7: It's got to be taken case by case. But yes,

924
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 7: I think they're both present.

925
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 3: And uh, Brazaria, we did. We kind of briefly discussed

926
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 3: this the other day. But what are your thoughts? I mean,

927
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 3: jose we've talked about this before too, and you don't

928
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 3: seem to budge on this issue. But what about because

929
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 3: just from experience anecdotally, the hormonal and utero thing.

930
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: Just feels like it's an aspect.

931
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 3: I mean, just Billie Jean and King Martin and Avertilova,

932
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 3: like the bone structure. I mean, it's like a it's

933
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 3: like a it's like a testosterone issue.

934
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: It's and then gay like there's gay men who were believe.

935
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 5: You're going there. We did. We had that. It was

936
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 5: a private conversation.

937
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: Actually super gay men that right.

938
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 3: I know you said, but I mean, just what do

939
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 3: you what do you say to to that? Because I

940
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 3: think there I mean, I I don't know. I just

941
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 3: think that that there might be something to the hormonal

942
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 3: and utero situation.

943
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, so when it comes to biology, I'm willing to

944
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 7: budge a little bit on this. On the biology, however,

945
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 7: so I want to so there's a tension here. On

946
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 7: one hand, Yes, there's probably a genetic contributor, not a

947
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 7: genetic determinant. Some things are determinants. Oh, we have these

948
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 7: genes and that's it. That's my eye color period, that's

949
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 7: what's gonna happen. Okay, whether you have an extra Y chromosome,

950
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 7: that's that determines if you're male or female. Okay, but

951
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 7: there are contributors, so there could there be a genetic contributor. Yes,

952
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 7: The largest most robust study I've read, looking at genetically

953
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 7: identical twins monozygotic twins, finds that if one boy has

954
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 7: same sex attractions, then less than one third of the

955
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,479
Speaker 7: time the other boy will have same sex attractions, which

956
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 7: is higher than a random sampling. So yes, there's probably

957
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 7: a genetic contributor. However, I want to push back a

958
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 7: little bit on the hormonal because the hormonal argument. Now

959
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,280
Speaker 7: I'm not pushing back, I'm just saying there are limits

960
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 7: to the hormonal argument. And here's why, because we see many,

961
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 7: actually most cases of boys who are identical twins who

962
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 7: are being carried in the same pregnancy, so they're exposed

963
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 7: to the exact same hormonal prenatal hormonal environment. Very very

964
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 7: often we'll see one with same sex attractions opposite with

965
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 7: other the other one with opposite sex attractions, and so

966
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 7: the hormonal influence has limitations on it. So I would say, yes,

967
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 7: there's probably a genetic connection to it. There is a

968
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 7: genetic connection to something called neuroticism, which is a sensitivity

969
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 7: to negative emotions. And so men with same sex attractions,

970
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 7: and this is in the literature, they have higher levels

971
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 7: of neuroticism, a higher level of sensitivity to shame, a

972
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 7: higher level of sensitivity to fear, and a higher level

973
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 7: of sense nativity to anxiety. That doesn't mean they were

974
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 7: born that way and that's a gay gene. It just

975
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 7: means if you pair those those that constellation of factors

976
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 7: with a particular family, family environment, then yeah, that those

977
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 7: those things come together and those that's an additional compounding

978
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 7: factor that makes it more difficult for the boy to

979
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 7: achieve that sense of gender completedness in himself when he

980
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 7: has that higher neuroticism and you have a distant critical

981
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 7: relationship with the father. So so it's a constellation of factors.

982
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 7: And yes, to go back to your point, Uh you

983
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 7: got me, I am I am shifting a little bit

984
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 7: on the genetics in that I can't say there's zero

985
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 7: genetic contribution, but if I.

986
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 5: Can add to this too. I mean, Beckett, when you

987
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 5: and I were talking and this is it like I'm

988
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 5: never going to be able to have a private conversation

989
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 5: with Beckett Cook again. You know it's going to show

990
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 5: up on the Cook Show. I'm now I'm going to

991
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,959
Speaker 5: have to go to therapy. But but that's probably true.

992
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 5: But that's a side. But I do think that being

993
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 5: willing to talk about this is extremely helpful for the

994
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,919
Speaker 5: young people who are listening. And here's what I mean that.

995
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 5: You know often we will, you know, we will speak

996
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 5: biblical truth, and we want to speak biblical truth. We

997
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 5: want people to know that we have a savior that

998
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,479
Speaker 5: not only has paid for the guilt of our sin

999
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 5: if we repent and believe in him, but his resurrection

1000
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 5: delivers us from the bondage of that sin. That is true.

1001
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 5: And I will take that truth all the way to

1002
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 5: my grave and then beyond. Praise me to God for that.

1003
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 5: But people are looking at the world and they're wondering, well,

1004
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 5: why is it that all the women who call themselves

1005
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 5: lesbian are on the field hockey team and all the

1006
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 5: men who call themselves gayer and art history like, what

1007
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 5: is going on there? Like there's got to be something there.

1008
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 5: And you could just pretend that you could just be

1009
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 5: like nothing to look at there, or you could just

1010
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 5: talk about that. You could talk about the fact that

1011
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 5: you are fearfully and wonderfully made. Hormones are going to

1012
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 5: shift over the course of your life. They're not determinative,

1013
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 5: as Joseph just said. But in your social relationships, there's

1014
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 5: a lot going on there, right, I mean, Beckett, if

1015
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 5: people didn't tell us we were gay when we were teenagers,

1016
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 5: we might not have thought we were I'm just you know,

1017
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 5: I don't know. The world is a mirror, and that's

1018
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 5: why we want to evangelize. We want people to know

1019
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 5: that the integrity of what it means that there is

1020
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 5: a God whose love is available to each and every person,

1021
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 5: because the mirror that we want people to have is

1022
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 5: the mirror of the Lord Jesus Christ, not the mirror

1023
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 5: of the bullies out there in the world, whether those

1024
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 5: bullies come in the form of the left social justice advocates,

1025
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 5: or whether it comes in the form of fearful evangelicals

1026
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 5: who don't want to talk about some of these things,

1027
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 5: don't want to who don't want to get into some

1028
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 5: of these questions. You know, Joseph, when you started talking

1029
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 5: about Freud, I'm just thinking, oh my goodness, because I

1030
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 5: learned in graduate school that Freud was such a whack

1031
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 5: job that he left the medical department and you know,

1032
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 5: the medical field in nineteen forty five. And where did

1033
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 5: he go He'd go, he went, we're all fools go

1034
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 5: He went to the English department, which is why he was.

1035
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 5: He was why I studied Freud. So, I mean, I

1036
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 5: don't know. It kind of comes around both ways. So

1037
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 5: but you know God's truth. You know, God created all

1038
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 5: of this right, and so his truth where truth is found,

1039
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 5: we're going to try to tease it out, make good

1040
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 5: sense of it. But what we don't want are people

1041
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 5: whose lives have been hurt when they were children, and

1042
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 5: we don't want that to be where the bookmark always

1043
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 5: lands in their life as they reflect on their history.

1044
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 5: We don't we want the bookmark to move. And probably

1045
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 5: it's going to take all of these and more. When

1046
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 5: you think about it.

1047
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 1: The village, No, it's a quote.

1048
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 4: It's a quote.

1049
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 5: When you think about transgenderism, and you think some of

1050
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,919
Speaker 5: about some of the medicalization of transgenderism, you think about

1051
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 5: young people who have had cross sex hormones and surgical

1052
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 5: interventions and are now entering, you know, their twenty fifth

1053
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 5: year with brittle bone condition and complications due to their

1054
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 5: double mass eectomy and hysterectomy are what is the church

1055
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 5: to do? Are we not to get the medical care

1056
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 5: we need for them? Are we? Of course we are?

1057
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 5: I mean, of course we are. We have to. We

1058
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 5: have to because we believe that that there is no

1059
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 5: problem that the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't care deeply about,

1060
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 5: and we believe that there is no pain that we

1061
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 5: are not equipped to stand shoulder to shoulder with. But

1062
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 5: I'm not. I'm not medically trained. I'm going to need

1063
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 5: help with that. If I'm going to walk with my

1064
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 5: sisters and the Lord who are detransitioners, I'm going to

1065
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 5: need help to know how to be how to be

1066
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 5: appropriately useful to them in all walks of life. So

1067
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 5: I think in general we are not to be anti intellectual.

1068
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 5: We're to be It's not like we're you know, we're not.

1069
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 5: You know, heretics are the people who come together and say,

1070
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 5: let's rethink the Trinity. That's not what we're doing. That's

1071
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 5: not what we're doing. We're not we are. We are

1072
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 5: not taking age old you know, creedal truths that that

1073
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 5: the Church is believed for thousands of years and dismantling them.

1074
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 5: We're talking about people's lives, their childhoods, and their histories

1075
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 5: and their futures. And the Christian faith is not just

1076
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 5: for the small group of people who have never been abused.

1077
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 5: Is that what we want to say? Of course? Not?

1078
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 5: Of course not.

1079
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, we're going to end on this. Joseph tell

1080
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 3: us about the Supreme Court case, the ruling that just

1081
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 3: happened recently, and what what what was the case about,

1082
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 3: and what was the result and how does it affect

1083
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 3: you personally?

1084
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 7: Yes, So the case is Child's versus salads Are It's

1085
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 7: a US Supreme Court case about so called conversion therapy

1086
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 7: bands and the states where we've seen this again and again,

1087
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 7: they're they're using the term conversion therapy very broadly.

1088
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 4: The language is very vague and broad and basically.

1089
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 7: Creates a chilling effect for anyone who wants to help

1090
01:04:54,840 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 7: a person with their unwanted sexual attractions. That's that's conversion therapy.

1091
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 7: You're trying to force a person to go. So, these

1092
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 7: conversion therapy bans have been silencing free speech, and this

1093
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 7: got to the Supreme Court first. It became First Amendment issue,

1094
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 7: and does the state have the right to ban points

1095
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 7: of view because that's effectively.

1096
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 4: What this is.

1097
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 7: And a young woman Christian woman Christian therapist was saying,

1098
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,919
Speaker 7: I want to help people live in accordance with their

1099
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 7: traditional values. And there are people who are their gender

1100
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 7: confused individuals who who want to use my services, and

1101
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 7: I'm being stopped by the state from doing it. And

1102
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 7: as an aside, by the way many therapists, I'm just

1103
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 7: going to speak generally, many therapists believe, even though if

1104
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 7: they may not come out and say it, but they

1105
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 7: believe that they are actually helping you. They're doing you

1106
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 7: a favor by helping you to deconstruct from your traditional

1107
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 7: value system, that your traditional values are keeping you from

1108
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 7: being reaching the fullness of your self psychologically and becoming

1109
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 7: self realized and being the best potential. And they want

1110
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 7: to help. They won't come out and say it directly,

1111
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 7: but they want to help disabuse you of that of

1112
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 7: that restrictive system, and they think it's in your best interest.

1113
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 7: So that's what many, many of these state boards have

1114
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 7: been doing by silencing therapists, and whether it's directly by

1115
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 7: taking action against them or just by by reminding them,

1116
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 7: remember you can't we have these laws and you and

1117
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 7: that creates that chilling effect. So this this went to

1118
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,919
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court ruled eight to one,

1119
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 7: eight to one being the majority of the liberals sided

1120
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 7: with the conservatives, that these so called.

1121
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 3: Conversions again kick a guess, yes, Tanji Brown Jackson, what

1122
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 3: is the woman?

1123
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 5: Yes, the one who wasn't a veterinarian, so couldn't describe.

1124
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 7: That's right, that's right. So she eight to one, she

1125
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 7: was the one dissenting vote. These bands are are illegal.

1126
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 7: They're of clear violation of the US Constitution. They constitute

1127
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 7: a content based street, content based speech restrictions which are illegal.

1128
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 7: So now they've all been removed, and I am feeling optimistic.

1129
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 7: I want to tell the two of you and your

1130
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 7: listeners three reasons about why I am very optimistic about

1131
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 7: our future around this issue.

1132
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 4: Number one is the child's versus how is our case.

1133
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 7: It gives breathing room to therapists who want to help

1134
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 7: people live in accordance with their deeply held values, with

1135
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 7: people just like Razaria who are saying, I want to

1136
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 7: look my body tells me something about my design.

1137
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,480
Speaker 4: So maybe that means you know there's a purpose.

1138
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,960
Speaker 7: I can infer information about my purpose and that's not

1139
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 7: to help a client along those lines is not hate speech.

1140
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 4: So I'm feeling great about the Supreme Court ruling.

1141
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 7: It gives therapists breathing room to help individuals live in

1142
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 7: accordance with their.

1143
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 4: Deeply held faith.

1144
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 7: I'm encouraged because we just had our largest cohort of

1145
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 7: therapists who are studying to do reintegrative therapy. If a

1146
01:07:57,320 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 7: therapist is listening to this right now and you're interested

1147
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 7: in in learning this therapy, go to reintegrateitherapy dot com.

1148
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 7: We make it as inexpensive as possible. We want to

1149
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 7: give you all the resources so that you can help

1150
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 7: other people. We want to equip you if you're a

1151
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 7: professional therapist. That's what we're here for. And then the

1152
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:17,879
Speaker 7: third thing that I feel excited about is that Beckett

1153
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 7: your interviews on this topic with me and with others.

1154
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 7: The last time I went on YouTube, they do not

1155
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 7: have that warning label that YouTube used to put on

1156
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 7: our videos, all those warning labels.

1157
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:30,479
Speaker 4: It's it's like.

1158
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 7: Maybe the world's becoming a little more sane, like maybe

1159
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 7: this is a good thing if they went a little far.

1160
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 7: And so those are three things that we have to

1161
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 7: be to be hopeful about the future.

1162
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 3: But are there any restrictions on you person on you

1163
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,799
Speaker 3: in California? Are there any restrictions it's like for minors

1164
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 3: or anything.

1165
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 7: We believe We believe that the lawyers are trying to

1166
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 7: figure out right now if childs versus salas are all

1167
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 7: that case automatically overturns all the all the bands like

1168
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 7: in California, or do we have to go date by

1169
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:03,679
Speaker 7: state and sue and then and then win based on

1170
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 7: childs versus salas are So we're not sure exactly, but

1171
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 7: these laws are effectively all dead or we're in check

1172
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 7: and about to go into checkmate, so they're effectively dead.

1173
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 1: Wow.

1174
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:21,640
Speaker 3: Okay, well we're gonna leave it there, and thank you

1175
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:25,639
Speaker 3: guys for coming on and talking about this thorny. Well

1176
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 3: it's not thorny. It's just this this interesting topic. And

1177
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 3: I appreciate both of your inputs, and uh yeah, thank

1178
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 3: you for doing this.

1179
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 4: Can I ask a question, yeah to Rasaria Rosaria.

1180
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 7: When Beckett and I we did done a couple of videos,

1181
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 7: and over and over in the comment section, people will say, well,

1182
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 7: what about women like you're talking about like like a

1183
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 7: pattern for men?

1184
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 4: And I always say.

1185
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1186
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 4: It's not my area. It's more complicated. I'll tell you

1187
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 4: what other people say.

1188
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 7: So are there resources that you can that you can

1189
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 7: point people to?

1190
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:58,599
Speaker 5: So you're so funny because I think the way we

1191
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:02,759
Speaker 5: met is you wrote to my website and left an email.

1192
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:04,639
Speaker 5: I think you left an email too, and you asked

1193
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 5: me a question like we need to study women. I

1194
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 5: just and and you know I don't. I don't know

1195
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 5: of any resources offhand, but I do know I'm going

1196
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 5: to say something really controversial. Men and women are different. Okay, everybody,

1197
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 5: you're okay, Okay, he's breathing, and we do know, and

1198
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 5: you know, we do know that that women have more

1199
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:36,479
Speaker 5: are you know, tend to be I mean, you know,

1200
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 5: Paul says more easily deceived, right, which you can see

1201
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 5: how that would work very well. You could see how

1202
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 5: that would work in the fall, but you could also

1203
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 5: see how being more willing to see things from different

1204
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 5: points of view can be very useful. It was very

1205
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 5: It's very useful for me as a mother to be

1206
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 5: able to do that, to really be a little bit

1207
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 5: more flexible with how I'm how I'm you know, positioning

1208
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 5: my listening skills with my children and my grandson, and

1209
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 5: so I do think that what you said is a

1210
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:18,440
Speaker 5: good caution. Women are less visual, women are more responsive.

1211
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 5: It's easier, and so so I think that is true

1212
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 5: for the women who are you know, have been lesbian

1213
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 5: and are not lesbian. I think that the transgender issue

1214
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 5: is a slightly different issue, and I think that's really

1215
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:41,640
Speaker 5: where I would love for you to be helping me

1216
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:45,720
Speaker 5: think through this, because I think that women need what

1217
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 5: men need. If there was trauma in the past, deal

1218
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 5: with the trauma, don't run with the trauma. Don't let

1219
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 5: the trauma be your story. You know. One of the

1220
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 5: status stories we have out there right now is Julie Rogers,

1221
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 5: who right now goes by the name Jules Rogers. She

1222
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,639
Speaker 5: was She starred in the Netflix Pray the Gay Away,

1223
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:10,799
Speaker 5: She had the The New York Times hosted lesbian wedding

1224
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 5: right after a Burga fell. She wrote a book, was

1225
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 5: gay Married for a season, And she now has had

1226
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 5: a double mass ectomy and calls herself gender queer, and

1227
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 5: she's quite open about how her lesbianism was in fact

1228
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 5: prompted by sexual abuse. And so it's been years and years.

1229
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 5: She was the darling of the Wheaton College. You know,

1230
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,679
Speaker 5: I don't know, some kind of a program to get

1231
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,679
Speaker 5: all of the same sex attracted Christians in a room

1232
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 5: together and then be confused about why they were all

1233
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 5: going home with a date. You know, it was I

1234
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 5: mean you know what I mean, like it was like

1235
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 5: the brain you know, whenever you would brainchild and evangelicalism together. Guys,

1236
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 5: it's scary to me. I'm sorry, just slap me, slap

1237
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 5: me now. But easiest people to manipulate unplanet Earth, and

1238
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 5: it just needs to stop being that way. But it's

1239
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:14,679
Speaker 5: really sad to me. She has been publicly crying out

1240
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:19,839
Speaker 5: for help forever and now it's gone to body mutilation.

1241
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 5: When is it going to stop? When are we so?

1242
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 5: I think that women need help with their trauma, just

1243
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 5: like men need help with their trauma. But we need

1244
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 5: to This idea that it's safe and good and normal

1245
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 5: to be gay or lesbian is ridiculous. And I would

1246
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 5: add one more facet of ridiculous, the idea that you

1247
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:54,680
Speaker 5: can just sublimate your churnings and your burnings and your desires.

1248
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 5: You can't. I mean Ephesians four to eight. The thief

1249
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:04,640
Speaker 5: that is no longer a thief is not just a

1250
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 5: thief that stops stealing. Right. Jay Adams, who in many

1251
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 5: ways launched this this division, if you will, between repairative

1252
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 5: therapy and biblical counseling, had a really good read on that.

1253
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 5: He said, a thief who just stops stealing is a

1254
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 5: thief on vacation. You got to get to the you

1255
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 5: got to get to the affections of the heart. To

1256
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:32,639
Speaker 5: quote Beckett's book title, You've got to find a change

1257
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 5: of affection. And the Lord Jesus Christ is here to

1258
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 5: help you do that. And you know, we live in

1259
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 5: a modern world. You know, we have air conditioning and

1260
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 5: flush toilets, and we have therapists. So I think, Joseph,

1261
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 5: handle it. But but no, I don't. I don't. I mean,

1262
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 5: I mean, I think we're all not taking ourselves very

1263
01:14:58,120 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 5: seriously here. As I said, this is where all of

1264
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 5: our friendships go to die. But we Yeah, so I don't.

1265
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 5: But I wouldn't want to over psychologize this with women, Joseph.

1266
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:11,720
Speaker 5: I really wouldn't, because I don't think you know, you

1267
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 5: use the word complexity. I think the danger of over

1268
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 5: psychologizing women as you're going to take what is a

1269
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 5: beautiful complexity a lovely fluidity, something that is quite frankly

1270
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 5: easier to work with and now make it rigid and hard.

1271
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 5: But the transgender piece really has to be dealt with.

1272
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:37,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, yes it does. It is as you said, there

1273
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 7: is something different. Let me, just as you were talking,

1274
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 7: are two things were coming to my mind about the

1275
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 7: differences between male and female sexuality.

1276
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:49,160
Speaker 4: That there's an idea.

1277
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 7: That the masculine does and the feminine is done too.

1278
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:56,799
Speaker 7: And this works on multiple levels. Okay, on a cellular level,

1279
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,640
Speaker 7: the sperm in the egg, the masculine dot does the

1280
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 7: the feminine is done too. On an anatomical level, for

1281
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 7: your listeners, you know what I mean, the masculine does,

1282
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 7: the feminists done to. On an emotional societal level, the

1283
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 7: masculine does, the feminine is done to. Women want to

1284
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 7: be pursued in cross different cultures. It's the men who

1285
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 7: initiate marriage. They're going to pursue marriage. There's something about

1286
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 7: the male initiating and doing so. We have cellular, we

1287
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 7: have anatomical, we have relational and cultural we see and

1288
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:30,519
Speaker 7: then we have and by the way, look at all

1289
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,639
Speaker 7: forms of masculinity in modern culture and in ancient culture

1290
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:37,280
Speaker 7: and Eastern and Western masculinity is always associated with doing.

1291
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 7: You're going to be the hunter, You're going to be

1292
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 7: the provider. If you're not doing anything and your children

1293
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:44,680
Speaker 7: are hungry, people are going, dude, you're not being masculine.

1294
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:47,440
Speaker 7: Go take care of your family like you have a responsibility.

1295
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 7: And on a spiritual level, like Christ in the Church,

1296
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 7: or to go back to the Old Testament God in Israel,

1297
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 7: there's one the masculine is doing and the feminine is

1298
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 7: done too. And so that might go resort back to

1299
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 7: what you're saying, that we can't just take the same

1300
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,880
Speaker 7: lens toward men and apply that with women. That there

1301
01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:09,799
Speaker 7: is more of a flexibility to influences that are shaping

1302
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 7: the femininity and feminine sexuality in a way that it's

1303
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:15,320
Speaker 7: not going to be with the masculine. So that's what

1304
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:16,680
Speaker 7: was coming up for me when you were saying it.

1305
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 7: Another thought that I had about trans and I think

1306
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 7: this is important. I'm going to offer something to the

1307
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,519
Speaker 7: two of you and to your listeners. I think it's

1308
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 7: an interesting idea, which is a psychoanalytic observation about the

1309
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 7: genesis of trans. Okay, so this is what the analyst said,

1310
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 7: and we could say many negative things about Freud. He

1311
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 7: was an atheist and anna, But that man was very

1312
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 7: very good at noticing very specific details about people. He

1313
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 7: was an incredible observer, and the analysts were great observerst

1314
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 7: So here's one thing that they noticed, the early analysts,

1315
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 7: they said, and for those of you who listening from

1316
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 7: with male same sex attractions, we see distancritical father, higher anxiety,

1317
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:59,439
Speaker 7: and trusive mother with trans So while you speak about

1318
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 7: boys right now, boys who end up identifying as girls,

1319
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 7: the idea is this goes back very early to a

1320
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:14,720
Speaker 7: mother who is very unpredictably attached to the infant. The

1321
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 7: mother is there and soothing the infant in the crib,

1322
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,519
Speaker 7: and then the mother's gone, just totally gone, and then

1323
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:21,400
Speaker 7: the mother's back again. The mother's gone and leaves for

1324
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 7: long periods of time when the infant is trying to

1325
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:30,559
Speaker 7: make attachment, to form attachments and make his gender a

1326
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 7: part of his identity. This is earlier. This is earlier

1327
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,200
Speaker 7: than male same sex attraction. We're talking, we're talking zero

1328
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 7: through two. In this case, the boy is looking to

1329
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:44,200
Speaker 7: the mother as the primary attachment figure and the one

1330
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 7: who's most linked to his survival. If you're an infant

1331
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 7: and you're in the wilderness, you're dead. You need your

1332
01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 7: primary caregiver to take care of you. And so what

1333
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 7: the infant will do to deal with the chaos of

1334
01:18:55,560 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 7: a mother who is herself emotionally chaotic and intermittently available.

1335
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:02,760
Speaker 7: What the infant, in some cases has been observed to

1336
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 7: do is to to buffer against this. The infant will

1337
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,720
Speaker 7: take an article of clothing from mommy and hold it

1338
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 7: close to feel close to mommy even though mommy doesn't here,

1339
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 7: A piece of Mommy is here and the infant feels calm.

1340
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:19,240
Speaker 7: And then, if the chaotic experience continues long enough, the

1341
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:21,720
Speaker 7: infant will eventually take up article of mommy's clothing and

1342
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 7: start to wear it. I become mommy. I'm gonna put

1343
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 7: on her dress, I'm gonna hold her dress, I'm gonna

1344
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 7: put her pearls around me. And on an early, very

1345
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:33,559
Speaker 7: infantile level, it's like I am becoming mommy. And this

1346
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 7: helps me to feel centered and calm in myself. And

1347
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 7: I'm gonna just point out two things here, because we

1348
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 7: talk about trans and we can't. I think we are

1349
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 7: doing people a disservice if we only say it's a

1350
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 7: sin issue. There are some complications going on here for

1351
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:50,559
Speaker 7: those who are in the church. And I think we

1352
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 7: should just say that this is a couple of studies here. One,

1353
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 7: this is all available online. Mothers of boys with gender

1354
01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:02,879
Speaker 7: identity disorder, mothers of boys who have gender identity disorder

1355
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:07,439
Speaker 7: have borderline personality disorder or clinical depression. That means the

1356
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:11,639
Speaker 7: majority of these mothers are psychologically unwell. In the control group,

1357
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 7: it was six percent of the mothers who had depression

1358
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 7: and zero percent had borderline personality. Give me, give you

1359
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:22,680
Speaker 7: one more. This is all available online. Attachment patterns and

1360
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:26,760
Speaker 7: complex trauma and a sample of adults diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

1361
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 7: Forty six percent of adults with gender dysphoria have a

1362
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 7: disorganized attachment style compared to five percent of the general population. Okay,

1363
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:39,960
Speaker 7: in order to create a disorganized attachment style, generally speaking,

1364
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 7: it means early early chaos, chaos and attachments. And so

1365
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:48,479
Speaker 7: this goes back to this attachment. And many men who

1366
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 7: have I have a couple of men in my practice

1367
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:56,400
Speaker 7: like this will have fetishistic drives and desires. When they

1368
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 7: put on women's clothing. They often feel, ah, there's a real,

1369
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:01,719
Speaker 7: there's a really I have a man in my practice

1370
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:03,680
Speaker 7: who says this, When I put it on, I get

1371
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:06,719
Speaker 7: a relief from an anxiety that feels like it's always there,

1372
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 7: it's always following me all the time. When I put

1373
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:11,719
Speaker 7: on a woman's clothing, I feel like I can calm

1374
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:12,679
Speaker 7: down for a moment.

1375
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:14,320
Speaker 4: That tells you it's.

1376
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:17,200
Speaker 7: Not about the clothing, It's about what the clothing represents.

1377
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 7: I want to give one more example. Here a man

1378
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 7: in my practice who said to me, he said, I

1379
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 7: must be really under stress. He said, I said, why,

1380
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,599
Speaker 7: what's going on? He said, I am, I'm suddenly I'm

1381
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,080
Speaker 7: smoking cigarettes and I'm drinking diet coke. And I said, okay,

1382
01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 7: what does that mean? He said, I don't like cigarettes

1383
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 7: and I don't like diet coke. He said, my mother

1384
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 7: likes cigarettes, and my mother like diet coke. And when

1385
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 7: I would see her, when I would see her stress,

1386
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,519
Speaker 7: I begin imitative attachments of my mother. I even hold

1387
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:49,320
Speaker 7: the cigarette like she would hold it, like when I'm

1388
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 7: under stress. I want to merge with mommy. I want

1389
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:54,040
Speaker 7: to become one with mommy. And I'm not even doing

1390
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:57,440
Speaker 7: it on purpose. And the mother again with her own chaos,

1391
01:21:57,479 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 7: and I don't know what was going on her life,

1392
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:01,679
Speaker 7: maybe a boyfriend, and you had to leave the kids

1393
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:07,160
Speaker 7: suddenly and then come back when.

1394
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:07,160
Speaker 4: They feel very strong.

1395
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 7: A lot of men will say this, When I feel

1396
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 7: very stressed out, I feel like I regress to this

1397
01:22:12,160 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 7: like behavior of putting on women's clothing or wanting to

1398
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:18,000
Speaker 7: merge with mommy because it gives me a sense of safety.

1399
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,760
Speaker 7: And that is important information for people in the church

1400
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,240
Speaker 7: to know instead of just saying you're a pervert, knock

1401
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 7: it off, Let's dial it back a little bit and say,

1402
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:30,240
Speaker 7: you know, maybe there's a rationale going on here. And

1403
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:34,040
Speaker 7: that's a great illustration about how their trans behaviors are

1404
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 7: a state and not a trait because they're being told

1405
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 7: it's a trait. They're telling you. People are saying, you're

1406
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 7: putting that clothing on and feeling relaxed because you're accepting

1407
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 7: who you really are. See, it's a trait. No, because

1408
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,000
Speaker 7: when they're not under stressed, the desire to do that

1409
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:53,320
Speaker 7: behavior decreases dramatically. So, for whatever it's worth, I think

1410
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:56,760
Speaker 7: there is something to that in our understanding of individuals

1411
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 7: who have unwanted transgender feelings.

1412
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:02,599
Speaker 5: Could I add one thing to that too. I don't

1413
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:07,600
Speaker 5: think that anybody who's saying that it's a sin means,

1414
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 5: you know, dismissively, you are intentionally acting in some kind

1415
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:16,040
Speaker 5: of aggressive sin way. You know, when you think about

1416
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:18,160
Speaker 5: the sin of envy, well, where does envy come from?

1417
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 5: It comes from unbidden from the heart. You know, it's

1418
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 5: a But I appreciate what you're saying. And I have

1419
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:29,879
Speaker 5: a book I'd like to recommend, and it's called Across

1420
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 5: the Kitchen Table Talking about Trans with Your Teen by

1421
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:40,559
Speaker 5: Sam Andreatis, who is a PCA pastor, and he has

1422
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 5: a very helpful chart and it's about what happens when

1423
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:47,800
Speaker 5: your teen comes and sits down and says, mom, Dad,

1424
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:50,719
Speaker 5: I think I'm non binary. I think I'm gender queer.

1425
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:54,280
Speaker 5: And he gives it's almost like a flow chart. Okay,

1426
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I'm really old school holding it up here.

1427
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 5: But the first thing you do is you affirm your love.

1428
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:02,800
Speaker 5: That's the first thing you do. And you know, I

1429
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:06,400
Speaker 5: would say that when you're calling somebody to Christ, that's

1430
01:24:06,439 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 5: the first thing you're doing because you are not only

1431
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 5: affirming your love, but you're offering the love of God.

1432
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 5: And then he goes through a diagnostic flow chart. What's

1433
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 5: going on with this child. Is there adult cross dressing

1434
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:25,760
Speaker 5: for sexual arousal? Is there a craving to fit in?

1435
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:32,520
Speaker 5: Is there a lurking comorbidity, is their true body dysphoria

1436
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:38,599
Speaker 5: or alienation like you would find with anorexia. Is there

1437
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:42,920
Speaker 5: activism especially in the school. And I think this is

1438
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 5: one of the smartest books i've and you know, I

1439
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:49,160
Speaker 5: read lots of books. That's what I do. It looks

1440
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:52,439
Speaker 5: very professional, but mostly I'm just hiding in my office.

1441
01:24:52,479 --> 01:24:56,840
Speaker 5: But this is probably the most helpful one, not only

1442
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 5: for parents, but just for everybody trying to think through

1443
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:05,479
Speaker 5: exactly what Joseph is saying. That you know when Sin left,

1444
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 5: When Sin left from being outside in the garden, right

1445
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 5: when the snake was outside admin eve in Genesis three,

1446
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 5: and then you literally turn the page and you get

1447
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:22,679
Speaker 5: to Genesis four, and where is Sin? Well, God says,

1448
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:28,559
Speaker 5: Sin is lurking at the door. It's desires for you,

1449
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:32,599
Speaker 5: but you shall have mastery over it. Well, where's the door.

1450
01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:38,160
Speaker 5: There's no door. It's in your heart. Sin has moved

1451
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 5: from something that is material and outside of you to

1452
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:47,400
Speaker 5: something that is fairly it's functional, it's it's but it's

1453
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 5: it's competing with all kinds of other things in your heart. Right,

1454
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:59,000
Speaker 5: being born in atom means that we have a sin

1455
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:05,680
Speaker 5: nature and for our whole life as a Christian, we

1456
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:09,600
Speaker 5: will be fighting that's in nature and it won't be

1457
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 5: gone until glory. But sanctification is going to come through

1458
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 5: many forms. Some of it are going to be good

1459
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:19,920
Speaker 5: books and good articles, thinking through things, really listening to

1460
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:24,920
Speaker 5: people understanding what their histories are. But sanctification is true,

1461
01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 5: even though it's incomplete, and I think that's helpful. But

1462
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,479
Speaker 5: I do love that book. I think Sam Andreatis's book

1463
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:36,280
Speaker 5: would be my wreck to just help flesh out some

1464
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 5: of these some of the flow charts of how people

1465
01:26:40,240 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 5: get where they are.

1466
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,639
Speaker 6: And by the way, the reason I, Joseph, you weren't

1467
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:47,400
Speaker 6: on the call yet, but the reason.

1468
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 1: I held up my iced.

1469
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 3: Tea with fresh mint and lemon in it is because

1470
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:56,200
Speaker 3: my mother Drea, had this every single day of her life.

1471
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:58,719
Speaker 6: So it's my kind of go to what I've stressed.

1472
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 6: You know what I feel like strass, like where's the

1473
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:03,799
Speaker 6: iced tea? So I think instead of I think.

1474
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 3: You need to add to the kitchen window boy, the

1475
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 3: iced tea boy.

1476
01:27:07,040 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 4: The ice tea boy, that's right, that's right.

1477
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:13,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, the unconscious is a very interesting thing.

1478
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 3: Okay, we're out of time, so but you guys, thank

1479
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:21,720
Speaker 3: you so much. I appreciate everything. I appreciate this conversation

1480
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:25,559
Speaker 3: and I hope, I hope it's helpful to people. And

1481
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean, do you guys feel like it's It's hell,

1482
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:31,679
Speaker 3: it's been helpful this conversation.

1483
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 5: Don't be afraid to talk about things that other people

1484
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:36,360
Speaker 5: don't want to talk about.

1485
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna leave it there.

1486
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:42,559
Speaker 4: Thank you, guys, Thank you.

1487
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:43,800
Speaker 1: Wait, don't touch that dial.

1488
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:47,519
Speaker 3: Please like and subscribe, and also, please consider becoming a

1489
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 3: patron on Patreon for as little as five dollars a month.

1490
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:53,559
Speaker 3: You can really help us out on the show. The

1491
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,760
Speaker 3: link is below, and we so so appreciate it.

1492
01:27:56,800 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1493
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:02,799
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett

1494
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:08,040
Speaker 2: Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes

1495
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 2: of The Beckett Cook Show are also available on YouTube.

1496
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:15,240
Speaker 2: For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his

1497
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:18,559
Speaker 2: website at Beckettcook dot com.

1498
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:20,639
Speaker 3: Thank you to the team at Life Audio for their

1499
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:21,639
Speaker 3: partnership with us.

1500
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:23,720
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Speaker 3: Will find more faith centered podcasts about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

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Speaker 3: and more.