1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: He called to make a difference in mental health. 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Columbia International University offers graduate counseling degrees that combine professional 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: excellence with Biblical truth from associates. Through doctoral program, CiU 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: prepares you to bring healing and wholeness to others through 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: a biblically based framework of compassion and care. Whether it's 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: their k CREP accredited Masters in Clinical Counseling or their 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, You'll learn from experience 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: faculty who integrate faith with real world application to cultivate 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, and train. 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, CiU's 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally and spiritually. 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: Visit CiU dot edu. 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: To learn more about making a difference in mental health 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: through christ centered education. 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 2: That's CiU dot edu. 24 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian on 25 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: doctor James Spencer, and I'm joined again by doctor Ben Matthews. 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: Ben is a professor of counselor education at Columbia International University. 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: And today we're going to continue our Faith and Mental 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: Health series when we're going to specifically talk about the 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: issue of loneliness and try to frame loneliness as a 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: structural problem, not just a feeling. So the general idea 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: is that we're setting ourselves up to be lonely as 32 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: opposed to setting ourselves up to not be lonely. 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, and this was punctuated not too long ago 34 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: by the then Surgeon General. This was under he is 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: either President Biden or Obama. I'm sorry I can't remember offhand, 36 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 3: but he had mentioned how one of the largest concerns 37 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: that we are noticing in America today is the epith 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: what he called the epidemic of loneliness, because from that 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: flows so many other realities as much as we need 40 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 3: to talk about heart disease, we need to talk about diabetes, 41 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: as much as we may need to talk about other 42 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: medical issues that rightfully the Surgeon General will understandably engage with. 43 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 3: What he was trying to highlight is that often behind 44 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 3: is systematically involved in many of these other physiological mental 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: health issues. Is this larger sociological issue, this loneliness epidemic, 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 3: which is not just remember hearing him say, loneliness is 47 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: not just being alone, not to confuse it with just 48 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: like right now, quite technically physically I'm alone, like I 49 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 3: have you on the screen. But loneliness is not just 50 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: being alone. It's the absence of meaningful participation in life together. 51 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: Right And so in some cases I can be by 52 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 3: myself in a room but not be lonely if I 53 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: have a shared sense of meaning. Or I can be 54 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 3: in a room with a lot of other people physically 55 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 3: there and be really lonely if there's no sense of 56 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: shared meaning. Hence the necessity of why loneliness needs to 57 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: be understood as an epidemic that actually fuels so many 58 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: other both physiological as well as mental health issues in 59 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: our nation and around the world. Today. 60 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, some of the I used to do 61 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: some leadership coaching, and so some of the pastors that 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: I would work with, they would express. 63 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: This idea of loneliness. 64 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: Now they weren't alone, to your point, they weren't physically alone. 65 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: What they were expressing was the lack of anyone to again, 66 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: to use your word, meaningly participate with, in part driven 67 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: by this notion that the pastor needed to be above reproach, 68 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: that the pastor needed to be there was a different 69 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: standard for what the pastor was going through. 70 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: So you couldn't have. 71 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: Sort of what let's call it casual friendships within the church, right, 72 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: and you couldn't have people you could just express a 73 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: problem to, like, you know, you and I work at 74 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: Christian institutions, But honestly, we could complain to each other 75 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: about what's going on with those Christian institutions. 76 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: It wouldn't be a big deal, could you know. 77 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: I could complain to almost anybody about it because I'm 78 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: not a pastor. 79 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: But when a pastor is. 80 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: Complaining about the church, there's a very real sense in which, wow, 81 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: you're you're actually talking about me as your congregant, like 82 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: I'm a part your problem. Like you know, and so 83 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: there was this sort of weird dynamic that developed between 84 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: the pastor and the congregation where the pastor probably in 85 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: a mix of sort of self isolation, but also you know, 86 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: people putting him up on a pedestal created a structural 87 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: not a physical structure, but a real structural challenge for 88 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: him where he couldn't bridge and be in community and 89 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: meaningly participating community. 90 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: He was constantly. 91 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: Standing above it and eating it, but never part of it, 92 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: but never really part of it. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, 93 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: he was constantly solving problems, he was constantly being there 94 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: for people, but he didn't have an outlet for him 95 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: to be taken care of, for him to be nurtured. 96 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's that fracture of relational existence, right. Yes, 97 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: that I've said this both when I preach or when 98 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 3: I teach. It can be some of the most loneliest things. 99 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 3: And I remember either students are concruance saying like, how 100 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 3: can you be lonely when you're preaching, You're you're in 101 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 3: front of all those people. I said, that's part of 102 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 3: the problem is that I'm with people, and it just 103 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 3: exacerbates the fact that we're so apart that we're so 104 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 3: distinct from each other, because yes, I do think there's 105 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 3: times for that, but that's not where where growth happens 106 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 3: in the most context. And I wonder to what degree 107 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: and you would know this better, like to me, the 108 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: the ontology of the Trinity really plays into a lot 109 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 3: of this, the relational reality of the Godhead, that God 110 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 3: is fully, wonderfully, beautifully sufficiently enjoying community within himself, and 111 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 3: from that flows I think the desires of who we 112 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 3: are as humans. The one thing that's not good before 113 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: the fall is that man is alone, right, I gotta 114 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 3: imagine this then kind of plays itself out into this fracturing, 115 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 3: this loneliness that we feel when we're not we're not 116 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 3: imaging the triying God in the ways that he experiences. 117 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: And that's the hope that that's the reality of the fall. 118 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 3: But the hope of what redemption brings is this recentering 119 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: with the other in a way that again gets back 120 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: to this greater truth of who God is in himself. 121 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you look back at 122 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: those early chapters of Genesis, what you see is interdependence, 123 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: and so man is intended to be dependent upon God 124 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: This is part of what it means to be made 125 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: in God's image, is that you can't be made in 126 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: God's image and be independent of God. You're supposed to 127 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: be reflecting him, and so it stands to reason that 128 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: there has to be something to reflect. Now, there's a 129 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: relationship there, right, And so that relationship flows where we 130 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: are dependent on God and we're executing God's authority within 131 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: the context of the earth. And then you get to 132 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: that not alone passage, right, Well, what is that there's 133 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: a deficiency in man? The man alone can't do what 134 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: God has blessed all humankind to do, be fruitful, multiply, 135 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: fill the earth, and subdue it. And so there's then 136 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: a mutuality between the male and the female that is 137 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: created there such that they're both necessary to advance what 138 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: humankind is supposed to do. And so we have this 139 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: and I don't want to boil it down to like 140 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: a functional distinction, That's not what I'm trying to say. 141 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: But there is a sense in which I love the 142 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: way you put it, that participation in a shared meaning, right, 143 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: a meaningful participation. 144 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: That's what's going on here. 145 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: There has to be this meaningful participation, and so we 146 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: have to find those matches right where certain aspects of 147 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: our lives we just need other folk around. 148 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: I think this is why you have this whole. 149 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: Narrative of God bringing the animals to Adam to name, 150 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: and a lot of people talk about that as you know, 151 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: Adam exercising his creativity or helping God to establish culture 152 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: or what have you. 153 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: I actually don't think that's what's going on there. I 154 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: actually think what's. 155 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: Going on is God is bringing them before the man 156 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: so that the man understands that there is no match 157 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: for him in the world. He's now seen everything, and 158 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: as he sees everything, he's realizing that he really is alone. 159 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: And now when he sees the woman, you see the 160 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: celebration he has this is bone of my blown and 161 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: flesh of my flesh. Right now, there's an immediate connection 162 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: with this being that God has created to match the man. 163 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: And so I think in those early chapters, what we 164 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: really do deeply see is are interdependencies. And you could 165 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: even talk about interpendencies with creation, you know. I think 166 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: it often escapes people that man was put in the 167 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: garden to till it and to keep it. A lot 168 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: of people talk about that in terms of worship of God. 169 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: But the pronouns are it. 170 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: It's to kill and keep. 171 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: The man is put in the garden for the sake 172 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: of the garden, and the garden is now feeding the man. 173 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: The man is also caring for the garden. Yeah, there's 174 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: this mutuality with all of it. 175 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, again, in that context, 176 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: extremely embodied, right, Like we're seeing that embodied there. But 177 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: there's also a non physical structuring that's. 178 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: Happening right where we have God giving a. 179 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: Command to the man and to the extent that he 180 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: obeys it, this world is going to function as it's 181 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: intended to function, as God designed it, and so you 182 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: have this sort. 183 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 2: Of symbolic element there as well. 184 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: But I do think that there's just a deep interdependence 185 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: that we're supposed to be feeling with others. 186 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, toward a meaningful end that tell us that we've 187 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 2: talked about before, this is a deeply embodied. 188 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: Sense that we are participating in something and we don't 189 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: really belong to ourselves. 190 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: We belong to everyone else. 191 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 3: And what a beautiful picture that is in Genesis two, 192 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: which then creates the tension and drama of tragedy in three. Yes, 193 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: if Adam and Eve are given the good work to 194 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 3: both tend the garden and be blessed by the garden. 195 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: You know, that first work of gardening, as it were. 196 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 3: I was just talking about somebody about this last week. 197 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 3: We were having this conversation about technology and the as 198 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 3: the cultivating of God's creation for human flourishing is a 199 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 3: good reason, and I think that's what he was doing there. 200 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: He was engaging it in a human flourishing capacity as 201 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 3: an image bearer of God in all the right ways 202 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 3: and too. But then the first thing he does after 203 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 3: the fall is he uses gardening in all the wrong ways. 204 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 3: He takes fig leaves and he covers himself up. The 205 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: very thing he was supposed to engage with as a 206 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 3: means of human flourishing and worship of God, he now 207 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: takes for inward protection isolation. And it leads not just 208 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 3: to individualistic response. I'm now going to use this good 209 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: work for myself, but it also creates a barrier. That 210 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 3: part of the frustration, then is when God comes asking questions, 211 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 3: what's going on here? Who told you you were naked? 212 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 3: You know? Who told you this stuff? And the very 213 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 3: thing that Adam celebrates in chapter two now woman of bone, 214 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 3: of my bone, flesh, my flesh. He's now throwing her 215 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: under the bus. Yeah, well, you know it was the 216 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 3: woman you gave me that really caused all this problem. 217 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 3: And you see all the good work they were supposed 218 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: to do here. Now, can I say, James, in a 219 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 3: lot of marriage counseling that I've done, this is one 220 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 3: of the phrases that comes up a lot. How you 221 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 3: have these two people in a marriage, sometimes in the 222 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 3: same house, in the same bed, and sometimes one, if 223 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: not both are just saying I am just so lonely, 224 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 3: And sometimes one of the spouses may be like, what 225 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 3: do you mean lonely? We live together, and you can 226 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: just see the frustrations like then you obviously don't know 227 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 3: what I mean by how I'm so lonely. That living 228 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 3: in a shared space, while good, does not constitute shared meaning. Yeah, 229 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 3: and I can be in the same bed with you 230 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 3: and be incredibly alone. And that just harkens back to 231 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: what our first parents were doing in response of using 232 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 3: God's shared meaning of cultivating creation to now doing it 233 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 3: just to care for myself and the struggles that we 234 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: see even today. Like I said, even in marriage counseling, 235 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: that I work with with a lot of my clients. 236 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a hard thing. 237 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I I can think back to jobs I've 238 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: had in the past where I knew in my mind 239 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: that if one guy left the organization, I would feel 240 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: completely alone. 241 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: I forgot. I have some guys like that in mind 242 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: in my organizations too. Is right. 243 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I used to phrase it, and 244 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: this probably wasn't the appropriate way to phrase it, but 245 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: it's like he's the only other sane person here. 246 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: Like, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't. 247 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: Be here without this guy, right, And you just start to, 248 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, as you think about that and you contemplate 249 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: how lonely you would be without that person. 250 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, because you then you fall again. 251 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: We've mentioned for like that Elijah moment right where Elija 252 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: is like I'm the only one. 253 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: I'm the only one doing this and is lonely. 254 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: Man. God comforts him, But there there is still a 255 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: sense that knowing that there are seven thousand people out 256 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: there who haven't bowed the need to bail doesn't really 257 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: help you that much because you don't know them. Yeah, 258 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: it's like, I know there are other people out there 259 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: engaged in discipleship. I know, like intuitively and intellectually I 260 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: know that, right, and there is some some comfort in it. 261 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: But there's a proximity issue, right that there has to 262 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: be a proximity you know that that that you can't 263 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: just know these other people are out there, some faceless 264 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: human is out there doing something that you really care 265 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: about and you're doing it actually with them, right. You 266 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: kind of need somebody in proximity to you to remind you. 267 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: It's like, oh no, there are other people out there 268 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: and there's this person right right. 269 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, And to the degree I mean we've seen this sociologically. 270 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 3: You've referenced things like bowling alone and things like that, 271 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: as well as as an indicator how those those communities, 272 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 3: those clubs, those social gatherings. And I think the research 273 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 3: that has kind of framed a lot of our discussions, 274 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 3: highlighted particularly religious affiliation, yes and communal engagement, has this 275 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: corollary effect that the more we kind of pull away 276 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: from those realities because it is easier to do that, right. 277 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 3: I mean, just earlier this morning, I ordered something on 278 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 3: Amazon that'll be here today, So not only is it 279 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 3: now just not two days, I can get it same day, 280 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: and I don't have to go to Walmart, I don't 281 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 3: have to go to AutoZone. I don't have to deal 282 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 3: with actual live parking lots and waiting in lines and 283 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: pulling up. It's just so much, so much less friction. Yeah, 284 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 3: and yet the friction actually is what I need for sanctification, 285 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: like need. I don't want it, but I need it 286 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: in a way that actually helps me grow up in 287 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 3: all the ways that I need. When it becomes a 288 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 3: frictionless society, as we know is the goal for many, 289 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 3: it creates a very lonely society and all the after 290 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 3: effects of that. 291 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: I agree. 292 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: No, I mean I work from home, so I have 293 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: a basement office. I'm basically there are days I don't 294 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: go outside all day, right, I haven't been outside all 295 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: day to day. And so I even have a home gym, 296 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: Like I can just walk through my office door and 297 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: be working out in like five seconds. Right, So I 298 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: have a pretty self sustained, like you know, bomb shelter 299 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: sort of a setup going. 300 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: I know where I'm going when they drop, just so you. 301 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: Know, like I just walked downstairs. 302 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: But I will say I I grew up my family 303 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: never really stocked groceries. So I just got used to 304 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: going to the store every day, and I try to 305 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: go to the store every day. 306 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 2: I'll go out and buy whatever. 307 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: We're gonna eat for dinner tonight, right, just so that 308 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: I have some sort of human interaction during the day 309 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: that's not on camera. But actually, even if it's just 310 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 1: in a checkout line, yeah, right, it's just it. The adays, 311 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: I don't but I need it, you know, we don't. 312 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: We don't watch church on Sundays, like we go to 313 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: church on Sunday, those kind of things. We just do 314 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: those kind of things. And so I think, you know, 315 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: if I didn't have that, if I didn't have those 316 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: touch points with actual other humans where I'm seeing them 317 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: in the flesh, not in you know, on a screen, 318 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: I would probably go a little nuts. But I would 319 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: also be extremely lonely. Yeah, it's not fun just to 320 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: sort of sit around and do productive work by yourself 321 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: consistently only interacting with people through screens or phones or. 322 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: What have you. 323 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: Right, Like, there has to be some other connection there. 324 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: And I think as we just think about that sort 325 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: of not only the physical embodiment that needs to happen 326 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: in order to curtail loneliness, but also that structural element 327 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: that we kind of talked about with the lonely pastor 328 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: where you know, you do get in these times where 329 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: you just feel sort of you can be in the 330 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 1: same room, in the same group with these other people, 331 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: but you know that if you really told them what 332 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: you were thinking, you would be alienated in some way. 333 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, or at least you think that. 334 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 1: I think those two pieces are really crucial for us 335 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: to be thinking through when it comes to loneliness. I 336 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: think some people probably have a paranoid delusion that if 337 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: they shared who they really are, they're going to be shunned. 338 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: And maybe that's not true, but I've been around enough 339 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: to know that some of it actually is. 340 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 2: You know. 341 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of that research that you know, again 342 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: we're basing some of this discussion on highlight it again 343 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 3: this you could have right belief, but when participation collapses, 344 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 3: when when when loneliness increases, participation collapses that put it 345 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 3: put it in belief alone is not enough. Belief is 346 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 3: a good place to be. I mean, orthodoxy is important 347 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 3: and we would celebrate that, but the research also highlighted 348 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 3: that they may have all the right beliefs, but without 349 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 3: an actual connection to others. That's intentional, that's that's relational, 350 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: that's part of a rhythm. That those are buffers, those 351 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 3: those are safeguards in both physiological health, mental health, all 352 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 3: those realities of what goes into human flourishing in ways 353 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 3: that I think again, because we are confessional, we as 354 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 3: Christians are confessional people. We we we affirm the creeds 355 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: and the orthodoxy and the truths we earnestly contend as 356 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 3: it were, for the faith that's once delivered. So I'm 357 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 3: especially in a post modern epistemology, we need to we 358 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: need to be willing to recognize it's important to have truth, yes, 359 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 3: and that just having truth can make you really loathly. 360 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: Well, And I think to your point, there's I think 361 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: we could make a heuristic distinction. I don't want to 362 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: make a philosophical distinction that would take way too long, 363 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: but a heuristic distinction between shared knowledge and shared understanding. 364 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: So when we think about shared knowledge, you have the 365 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: doctrines of the Church, Like I believe that Christ came 366 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: to earth and became man. I believe in the incarnation. 367 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: That could be a that's a shared knowledge that most 368 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: Christians would have. Ye Now, what's the meaning of it? 369 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: Not hypostatic union one hundred percent God one hundred. 370 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 2: Percent man like. Yes, those are aspects of it, sure, 371 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: but what's the meaning of it? Well, the meaning of 372 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 2: it that we find in something like a Philippians too, is. 373 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: That the incarnations serves as a paradigm for the way 374 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: that we are to interact with one another. Now there's 375 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: an understanding of that, a depth of understanding of that 376 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: that influences the way the posture we adopt toward one 377 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: another and the way. 378 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: That we now interact. 379 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: And so we have to start moving from shared knowledge 380 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: just having the same belief systems that other people have, 381 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: to a shared understanding of how do these things work 382 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: themselves out in practice and what does it entail for 383 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: me and you to have these shared beliefs, and how 384 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: does that influence them the way that we the way 385 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: that we position ourselves in the world. It's not exactly 386 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: the same as orthodoxy, orthopraxy right right belief right practice, 387 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: it's not quite it. I think it's an in between 388 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,239 Speaker 1: stage where we sort of say, we don't always know 389 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: what right practice is going to be, and so we 390 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: need to orient ourselves toward it. And that I think 391 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to get at with that shared understanding. 392 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: It's a posture. 393 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's yeah, it's the orthopathy, that's right, hearts. 394 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 3: And that's a shameless plug for CiU here, but it's 395 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 3: actually it's actually been a lot of what we're discussing 396 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: here in the School of Counseling. We want to give 397 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 3: our students right information, right knowledge, not just theological but clinically. 398 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 3: We want them to have good techniques. We want them 399 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 3: to know how to do assessment, we want them to 400 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 3: understand how to do that. But a big part that 401 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 3: we're realizing that is, if not missing in most programs 402 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 3: that we need to champion, is how do I help 403 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 3: develop this to use your word, understanding that is more 404 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 3: than just this, but it's deeply here. Yeah, right orthodoxy, yes, orthopraxy, Yes, 405 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 3: orthopathy right heart. And again, I don't want to be 406 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 3: your holy Spirit. I don't. That's way above my pay grade. 407 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 3: That is not for me. But I do want to 408 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 3: provide a construct a community that at least asks those questions, 409 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 3: how is it moving from here into here in a 410 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 3: way that affects there? 411 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: Yes? 412 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 3: That and you probably know this better than I do 413 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 3: that even when I think of something like Philippines too, 414 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 3: if I understand it, it was perhaps even a hymn 415 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 3: in regards to the person and work of Christ. And 416 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 3: whenever I think of hymns, I think about singing, and 417 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 3: more often than not what Paul admonishes to sing with others. 418 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 3: The whole point of taking that good theology of who 419 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: Jesus is fully God and fully man. Yeah, you should 420 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 3: make you sing man, like you should. You should be 421 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 3: wanting to just share the joy of it, not just here, 422 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 3: but like Lewis says, joy is incomplete until it is 423 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 3: shared with another right When he talks about this in 424 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 3: Surprise by Joy, he recognizes that the joy I experience 425 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: internally is not fully fully felt, fully consummated until I 426 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 3: can kind of like when I go out to dinner 427 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 3: with my wife and I take a bite of something 428 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, my goodness, this was really good, 429 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 3: and then I scoop some for her to eat. Right now, 430 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 3: I could just give her information, but it's it's almost 431 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 3: like I need for her to experience the joy, not 432 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 3: just hear the joy coming from my mouth, but I 433 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 3: want her to partake in it. Lewis calls this praise. Right, 434 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: praise is the communal activity, and this is the shared 435 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 3: meaning that I'm often trying to get at with both 436 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 3: my clients, if not my local church myself. Is how 437 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: do I find this greater joy that goes beyond just this? 438 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 3: My marriage needs to have these elements as related to 439 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 3: Gotman's study, Well, yeah, I guess that's true, but so 440 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 3: much more than that the check mark the to do 441 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: list of what constitutes a good marriage. What does it 442 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 3: mean when Adam just responded out of pure joy, this 443 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: now is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. 444 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: That it wasn't just we're gonna do this work together, 445 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 3: but we're going to do this work together. Right, This 446 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 3: sense of communal context that then can engage in the 447 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 3: work together. We need all elements of that to for today. 448 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean if you think about the way 449 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: that that would actually combat loneliness, right, this this structured 450 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: shared joy, not just shared mission. 451 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 2: Like I'm all on board with shared mission. I think 452 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: shared mission is great, right. 453 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: Y awesome, great, But there's also a way to do 454 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: shared mission in a very sort of militant, unjoyous fashion. 455 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: Yes, where it becomes. 456 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: Drudgery, you know, the worst sort of obligation, right right, 457 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: I think I think obligation is an appropriate theological category. 458 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of obligations, but there's 459 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: also a drudging, you know, a drudgery to obligation if 460 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: you let it become that where it's like, oh no, 461 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: I have to do this, yeah right, That to me 462 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: is not a theological obligation. That is a rote behavior 463 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: modification strategy. Real, true biblical obligation involves more than just 464 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: doing something and involves our whole selves. And so that 465 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: to me is where we can connect in with joy, 466 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: where a lot of these things that it's a shared 467 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: zeal for as some one too talks about, you know 468 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: we delight in the law of the Lord. 469 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: Well, here we are. We're gonna delight in this. 470 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: This isn't just something we do because God said so, 471 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: and if we don't do it, we're going to get 472 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: in trouble. 473 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 2: Sure that factors in, but at the end of the day, 474 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: we delight in it. 475 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's the that's the state we're trying to 476 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: get to. And I think that delight would be infectious 477 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: and would draw people in who may feel lonely. But 478 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: it's hard to feel lonely when when you're around people 479 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: who are feeling deep joy that you. 480 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 2: Can actually participate in. 481 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're about, you know, your wife 482 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: giving her a spoonful of the food. 483 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: Right. 484 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: When we can help people participate in the joy we're feeling, 485 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: that is the sort of guard against real loneliness. 486 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the invitation of the other into the joy 487 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 3: you experience is a combatant against that loneliness factor that 488 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: I think it was. It was now in his book 489 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 3: on the Prodigal Son where he talks about that the 490 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 3: tragedy of that story is that the older son was 491 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 3: still outside the party. Yeah, thats as we often focus 492 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 3: on the younger son and all his licentiousness, his bringing 493 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 3: back into it. The heartbreak is that the story ends 494 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: with the older son so insular. I never got a 495 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 3: fat a calf? How come you never threw a party 496 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: for me? And it ends with him outside. Yeah, that's 497 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 3: the real tragedy is that we think we can kind 498 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: of muster up our own, you know, pull myself up 499 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 3: by my own bootstraps. I'll just get get it done, 500 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 3: you know, mark off the to do list, and I'm 501 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 3: doing everything right? Like why am I feeling this way? 502 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 3: But that's part of it is because you think it's 503 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 3: actually all about what you can do and the whole. 504 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: I think Keller would highlight too, that the story is 505 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 3: actually about the father. Are we willing to enter into 506 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 3: the relationship with the father who has already done the 507 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: work in a way that we can actually find joy 508 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: and rest into? And I don't want to give this implication. 509 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: I try to do this a lot with my clients. 510 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 3: I don't want to give the implication that joy looks 511 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 3: like this, that it has to be loud and explosive. 512 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 3: I'm a kind of person, you know what I'm feeling. 513 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: I'm terrible at poker because I can never bluff my 514 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 3: way for anything. So my kids often claim, we know 515 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 3: when dad's happy, and we know when dad's matt. I 516 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 3: get that I'm a little bombastic. That's I don't want 517 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 3: to give the impression that joy only looks one way, right, 518 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 3: But the question does need to be asked, to what 519 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: degree are we experiencing it that we can't help but 520 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 3: want like the father, like come in the party, like 521 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 3: you're missing out, dude, it's not worth stand out here 522 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 3: it's and it's not about the party, it's about being 523 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 3: together in the party that is really trying to be 524 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 3: the antidote to the loneliness that is so plaguing our 525 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 3: communities today. 526 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think part of it is, you know, 527 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: in that story, what we see is the brother who 528 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: is unwilling to even enter the party. Yet there's an 529 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: orientation within him that just says, no, this is not 530 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: this is not what I want, this is not what 531 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to accept. 532 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 2: I'm not doing this. 533 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so's there's an individual sort of agency and 534 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: responsibility that we have to take on to ourselves to 535 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: enter into that joy. But then I think there's also 536 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: a communal sort of notion where are we creating these 537 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: spaces where where people could be invited in to chair 538 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: It's it's the twofold thing. You know, If the father 539 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: never throws the party, there's nothing for the son to declimb, 540 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: and he's still stuck in the same place. Now, within 541 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 1: the context of the story, there is a party, So 542 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: the father's created this. 543 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: Context and the sun declines. 544 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: But I think sometimes we're in the opposite situation where 545 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: the nobody's throwing the party. 546 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. Yeah, and so. 547 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: It's just a I think, you know, we we think 548 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: about that on multiple levels and we start to recognize why. 549 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: I think I would argue loneliness is in part a 550 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: structural problem that we're just the way we are arranging 551 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: our lives is conducive to loneliness. 552 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 3: This is this is a natural outcome of the systems 553 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: and structures we've developed. 554 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 2: That's it. 555 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you know, just like you know, obesity seems 556 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: to go along with fast food somehow, Yeah, right, Loneliness 557 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: seems to come along with with some of the ways 558 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: that we have set ourselves up. And I think there's 559 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: a reorientation that needs to happen, of restructuring. And again 560 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: the church is just crucial for that. 561 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And that's and that's why it's so acutely 562 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 3: surprising for some people when they talk about the communities 563 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 3: that they're part of, and I think they are, whether 564 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 3: it's at work or family, maybe the local church, maybe 565 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 3: it is a bowling league, And yet there's this growing 566 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 3: angst of loneliness, right, because we're falling into all the 567 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 3: other systems, all the other structures that we've created that 568 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 3: give a false impression of connection, right, when I when 569 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 3: I see how many likes I have here are when 570 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 3: I see certain you know, views on a certain thing, 571 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 3: I feel connected to certain degree. Yeah, and it feels 572 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 3: like it's enough, but it painfully we have this gnawing 573 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 3: suspicion it's not, and we're feeling it as a society 574 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 3: and it's having all the corollaries that come with that. 575 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 3: And that's why when I was thinking about how the 576 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,239 Speaker 3: Surgeon General talked about loneliness being the epidemic that is 577 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 3: fueling and he has I mean the actual studies to 578 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 3: kind of highlight that as well. As much as we 579 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 3: look at all these other problems physiologically unpacking, it needs 580 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 3: to be done also within a relational context that, yeah, 581 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 3: we can provide really healthy food and good exercise regiments 582 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 3: and maybe even medication manage it to help you know, 583 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 3: heart disease yep. But if we don't deal with these 584 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 3: other relational constructs, we're just making really healthy people who 585 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 3: die alone. That's that's not really flourishing. 586 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: No, And I'll say, I mean kind of close this out. 587 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: I'll close with the death of Despair article that sort 588 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: of inspired the direction we took this. But if you 589 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: look at that what's happened, Well, the repealing of the 590 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: Blue State laws and the opening up of retail on 591 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: a Sunday. 592 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 2: Gives people a choice. 593 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a structural shift, and that structural shift allows 594 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: people to now choose to step away from religious institutions 595 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: that were, even unbeknownst to them, doing something good for them. 596 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: And as they step away from those things, then we 597 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: see this correlative sort of movement of deaths of despair. 598 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: It's a structural issue. Now does that mean. 599 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: That we can just go back and put the Blue 600 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: State loss back in place and. 601 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 3: Finished? 602 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: No shot, right, There's no going back, not at this point. 603 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: But I do think that it's important for us to 604 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: recognize that's a structural problem that was created, and it's 605 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: then human agency that chooses to step away from some 606 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: of these things, not realizing I think in many cases 607 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: how important it actually was to be within these religious communities. 608 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: And that I think is my biggest concern with technology 609 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: as well, is that we have no clue what this 610 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: is going to do to us. 611 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 2: And so we need to step carefully. 612 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: I'm not an anti technology guy at all, but at 613 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: the same time, I think we have to have a 614 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: pretty good grasp on what it means to be human 615 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: in the first place, so that we can be aware 616 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: when we're using technology, when we start to feel like, 617 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: oh wait, I'm giving up too much. 618 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, And the reality is, like you said, we're just 619 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 3: now in terms of social science, we're just now starting 620 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 3: to scratch an understanding of the effects, yes, of what 621 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 3: prolonged engagement, both technologically physical as well as social media 622 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 3: is having on us as a as a culture. The 623 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 3: reports on the front end are not the greatest in 624 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 3: terms of that, and I agree with you. I don't 625 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 3: think the answer is to take all my devices and 626 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 3: just you know, start throwing them into the river. But 627 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 3: but woe to us we don't tread lightly. And more so, 628 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 3: how do we build other systems that not just counteract it, 629 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 3: but actually give us flourishing, give us. To me as 630 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 3: a Christian, it's not just enough to say what's wrong? 631 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 3: What we need to break down? And we do. We 632 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 3: do need to deconstruct in some ways that I think 633 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 3: is healthy. And how do we actually get back to 634 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 3: some my opinion, ancient truths that continue to have meaning 635 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 3: for us today in ways that actually build us in 636 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 3: all the things that are deficient in our realities as well. 637 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 3: To me, that's the the both and we're pushing towards. 638 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's a good place to sort 639 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: of end, because I think our next episode is going 640 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: to be. 641 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 2: The search for relief. 642 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: What are some of the things that we can constructively 643 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: do in order to move past where we are now 644 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: or to bear faithful witness in this moment? And I 645 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: don't think like you, I don't believe it involves throwing 646 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: my devices in the river, right. I think it means 647 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: that we don't need to change our situation in order 648 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: to bear faithful. 649 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 2: Witness to the Lord. 650 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: I think that's what First Corinthians seven kind of Paul 651 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: is conveying there. Yeah, we don't have to change our situation. 652 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: We can still do this. We just have to be 653 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: reflective and thoughtful and really wise about the way we 654 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, And so yeah, as we jump into 655 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: this next next episode, Ben, thanks again for being here, 656 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: Thanks everybody for listening, and come back from the next 657 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian, where we'll be talking a little 658 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: bit about the Search for Relief. Take care, everybody. I 659 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team 660 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 661 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 662 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 663 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,439 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.