1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: Access more. Welcome to the Happy Home I'm our Lene Pellicane. 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: We live in a culture that value self care, personal branding, 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: and constant self evaluation. But what a freedom is found 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: in forgetting ourselves and remembering God instead. Sharon Hatty Miller 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: shares from our new devotional Gazing a God, a forty 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: day journey to greater Freedom from Self, strengthening you and 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: your family. Welcome to the Happy Home Podcast with your host, 8 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: Oarleen Pelicane. Beyond the podcast, I'd love to stay in 9 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: touch with you with my weekly newsletter What I'm Learning 10 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: this Week. Subscribe to that at Happy Home University dot com, 11 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: slash subscribe and that link is in the show notes. 12 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: Today's guest, Sharon Hatty Miller is the co founder and 13 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,319 Speaker 1: leader of Right City Church in Durham, North Carolina. Her 14 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: books include Nice, The Cost of Control, and Gazing at God. 15 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: She has her PhD, so she is super smart and 16 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: she teaches about faith, culture and the Bible. Let's get started, Sharon, 17 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: what a pleasure to have you on the Happy Home Podcast, 18 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: your new devotional, your new book, Gazing at God, a 19 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: forty Day Journey to Greater Freedom from Self. So I 20 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: just want to start here gaze gaze at God? Am 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: I going to go in the backyard? Am I going 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: to look in the stars? 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: Like? 24 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: What do you mean by gaze at God? 25 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 3: You know that title. I didn't originally come up with 26 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 3: that title. My editor did after reading the first draft 27 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: of this manuscript, and she noticed that I use that 28 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: word gaze specifically. The phrase that I used a lot 29 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 3: was about raising your gaze, and she said, I really 30 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: think you should call this gazing at God because I 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: see you using this word over and over again. 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: That said, one thing I want to kind. 33 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 3: Of prepare people for before they pick this devotional up 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 3: is that it's not forty days of just meditating on 35 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 3: the character and attributes of God. That really what these 36 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: forty days are are a journey. And one thing that 37 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 3: will really surprise people is that journey actually starts with 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 3: the self. That there's a good bit of the self 39 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 3: in there, because you cannot be free of the self 40 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 3: until you first heal the self. But gazing at God 41 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 3: is kind of a goal in some ways that by 42 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: the end of it, I hope you have experience what 43 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: I call self forgetfulness, and that's not self rejection or 44 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 3: self neglect. It's just like the subtitle says freedom from Self, 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 3: because I can tell you you need to focus more 46 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: on God instead of your self. But there's actually a 47 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: lot to unpack there, and that's what this devotional is about. 48 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're going to go there in a few 49 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: minutes about what does this mean to forget myself? What 50 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: is my name? No, you know it's not what you're 51 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, for yourself and your own life 52 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: when you saw, Okay, wait a minute, I am focusing 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: too much on myself and this, this focus on myself 54 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: is actually becoming more of a problem than a solution. 55 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: Can you kind of help us what does that look 56 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: like when we are starting to discover this? 57 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, so can I share just a little bit about 58 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 3: my own journey? 59 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,279 Speaker 2: So Gazing a God. 60 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: Is actually a follow up to a book I released 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen called Free of Me Why Life is 62 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 3: Better when It's Not about You. And that book emerged 63 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: from the season in my life when I was in ministry. 64 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: And that's the really like humbling thing about all of this. 65 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 3: As you think, okay, you're in ministry, like you are 66 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 3: focused on God. 67 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: But what I learned probably a. 68 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 3: Decade into ministry is that this work that used to 69 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: be inherently meaningful to me, like I was doing it 70 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 3: just out of love for Jesus and his word. 71 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: Honestly, I love the Bible as well. 72 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 3: At some point, the best way I can describe it, 73 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 3: you know, Scripture talks about faith as a race, and 74 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: at some point, I was kind of looking at the 75 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 3: women who are running next to me, and I was 76 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 3: comparing myself to them, or I was looking at the 77 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: people that were a few paces ahead of me, and 78 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: I was looking for acknowledgment from them, affirmation from them. 79 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: And if I didn't compare well or if I didn't 80 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 3: get affirmation, I was shattered. 81 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: I was discouraged. 82 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: I felt like a failure, and it stripped all the 83 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: inherent joy out of my calling. And so I realized, Okay, 84 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 3: I'm behaving like a really insecure person right now. Why 85 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: am I so insecure about ministry of all things? And 86 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 3: so I decided to address what was going on inside 87 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 3: of me by reading books about insecurity, reading blogs about 88 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 3: articles about insecurity, looking at what Scripture says about me. 89 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 3: You know, God loves me, He created me with a purpose, 90 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 3: you know, affirming myself with all of that, and when 91 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 3: I got to the end of that journey, I realized 92 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 3: that it was probably about six months worth of research. 93 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: I realized that it had not helped at all, like 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 3: it had not touched what was really causing the insecurity 95 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 3: inside of me, And so I had to back up 96 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: and reapproach this whole process very differently. And what I 97 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 3: eventually discovered along the way is that there are actually 98 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: two causes of insecurity, but our culture really only ever 99 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 3: talks about one, and that is low self esteem. 100 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: And low self esteem is real. 101 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 3: I would define that as not seeing yourself the way 102 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 3: God sees you, you know, not seeing yourself in a 103 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: way that is truthful or biblical. And Scripture is absolutely 104 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: the answer to that, the Gospel of Jesus Christ absolutely. 105 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: The answer to that. 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 3: But there is a second cause of insecurity that our 107 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 3: culture almost never talks about, and that is self preoccupation. 108 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: When you make yourself the center of the story, when 109 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: you are the hero of the story, when you treat 110 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 3: your marriage, your parenting, your career, whatever it is, as 111 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: a reflection back on you, you're making it about you 112 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 3: in some way. It now possesses a weight that it 113 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: was never meant to have. 114 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: And we see this throughout scripture. 115 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: You know, you look at Moses, you look at Jeremiah, 116 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: you look at Gideon. These are men who go to 117 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 3: God expressing insecurity, expressing senses of inadequacy. And God does 118 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: not respond to them by saying, Moses, you are awesome. 119 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: You know. 120 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 3: He doesn't say, Jeremiah, you have so much potential. You know, Gideon, 121 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: you've got this. He doesn't say any of that. Instead, 122 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: he points back to himself. He reminds them this. 123 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: Story is not about you. This does not rise and 124 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: fall on you. 125 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 3: What happens next is not a referendum on your value 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: or your worth. And so it was helpful for me 127 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: to recognize, Oh, I have made like everything I'm putting 128 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 3: out into the world, everything that I'm doing, I've made 129 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 3: it about me. I've treated it as a reflection on me. 130 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: And because of that, I've lost all the. 131 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: Joy of that work. 132 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: And so that was really the birthplace of this journey 133 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: that I have been on where I wrote Free of Me, 134 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: and then I wrote gazing at God as a fallow 135 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: up to do more of that interior work that is 136 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 3: necessary for self forgetfulness. 137 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love what you write. We are never more 138 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: fragile than when we make ourselves the center of our story. 139 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: And my word, the younger generation. If you and I, 140 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: and you're younger than I am, but if you and 141 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: I are struggling with this, how much more is a 142 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: ten year old girl a ten year old boy who 143 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: has been taught from the time they were little. Here's 144 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: this phone, take lots of selfies and believe me, you 145 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: are the center of the story. And if something doesn't 146 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: please you, don't worry, just find something that does, because 147 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: you are the center of the universe. How much more 148 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: is this? Do you see a problem for our kids 149 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: even as they grow up, being told you are the 150 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: center of the story. 151 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of that term. You probably know 152 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: what it is. It's like main character. What is it 153 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: called it? 154 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: Like a hero's journey, something. 155 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: Specific to TikTok, like the TikTok generation. It's this idea 156 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 3: that you are living as if you are this main 157 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 3: character and everyone else is kind of a supporting character. 158 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 3: And growing up in an age of social media really 159 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 3: disciples you into thinking that way, and so for us 160 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: to recognize and you know, you see adults struggle with this, 161 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 3: and this is those of us who came to this later, 162 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 3: and so it's not as if we were raised being 163 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 3: formed that way. And to still see the number of 164 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 3: adults that I see who recognize I need to take 165 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 3: a break from this, like I need to return to reality, 166 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: return to the world in which Jesus is the center. 167 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: And not me. 168 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: And children don't have that level of self awareness. They 169 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 3: just think this is how it is, and if people 170 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 3: don't pay attention to me, it's because I actually don't 171 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 3: have worth. And I mean the data on that is 172 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 3: just damning frankly. 173 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: So yes, yes, So as parents, you know, we can say, 174 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is not giving you the truthful information. 175 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: In fact, is giving you harmful information. So we're going 176 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: to push back that social media as long as possible. 177 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: You write, comparison takes our eyes off the work or 178 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: the life to which we have been called, leaving us 179 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: unable to steward God's work faithfully. And you talk about 180 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: Hebrews twelve as you talked about earlier, and it's like, 181 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: if we're so busy comparing ourselves to the person next 182 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: to us, we're not able to just faithfully do the 183 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: work that we are supposed to do. Yeah, talk about 184 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: the true self because people, oh, I will just you know. 185 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: The answer is, if I was just true to myself, 186 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: everything would fall into place. You know, help us understand this. 187 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: If our child, you know, says, or friend or ourself 188 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: we say, I just need a lean into my true self. 189 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I have a couple of devotions about 190 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: the true self, and I'm honestly, I'm so fascinated by 191 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 3: this topic. 192 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: I think I want to write more on it. 193 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 3: Because we live in this moment where there's almost this 194 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 3: false gospel of the true self, where if I can 195 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 3: just figure out, if I can just discover my truest self, 196 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 3: that this is going to set me free. And like 197 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: a lot of truth that we receive from our culture, 198 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 3: there is some reality to us. 199 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,479 Speaker 2: It's not a total lie. 200 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 3: Because the fact of the matter is God created each 201 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 3: one of us individually. He created each one of us 202 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: with purpose, with gifts, with unique ways that we reflect Him, 203 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 3: and sin has separated us from that in some sense. 204 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: And so what we experience in Christ is a restoration 205 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 3: to our truest self. Jesus is the one who is 206 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 3: able to restore that identity. He is the one who's 207 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: able to redeem us so that we can discover who 208 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: God actually. 209 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: Create me to be. 210 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: But I really love one person who's written spoken helpfully 211 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: on this is Tim Keller. Yes, and he says that 212 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 3: the difference between how our world conceives of identity and 213 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 3: how the Christian conceives of identity is that we say 214 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 3: the Christian identity. 215 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: Is received, not achieved. 216 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 3: That it isn't something that you have to go on 217 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: this long journey by yourself. 218 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 2: No one else can help you, no one else can 219 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: speak into it. 220 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 3: Because that's the other thing that is really concerning about 221 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 3: our culture's understanding of identity is it's highly individualistic. No 222 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: one else can tell you who your true self is. 223 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 3: In fact, people their opinions are an obstacle to your 224 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 3: true self and a Christian, a healthy understanding of identity 225 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: is one that is formed in community, but most importantly 226 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 3: is received from God himself. This isn't something that you 227 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 3: specifically own and that no one else can see or understand, 228 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 3: because I think the secular understanding of identity is highly isolating. 229 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 3: It's highly isolating. And so to say that yes, God 230 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: did create you with a purpose, He created you you 231 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 3: with gifts, but the way that you are restored to 232 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 3: that true self is not by you performing in some way, 233 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 3: not you expressing yourself like that's that's another highly secular 234 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 3: way of talking about it. The one who possesses your 235 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 3: true self is Jesus. Yes, you can only find it 236 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: in him. And so just the lightness of you don't 237 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 3: have to do anything, you just have to abide in 238 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,119 Speaker 3: Him is so much lighter than the way that the world. 239 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 2: Talks about it. 240 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: As you have been studying this, you've been talking about it, 241 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: writing on it, what would you say from your children's perspective? 242 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: Could they see like maybe, you know, maybe they couldn't 243 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: say it this way, but can they tell like, oh, 244 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: Mama is not as preoccupied as she used to be. 245 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: You know, what sense of that do you have? 246 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: You know, my kids were little when I first started 247 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 3: on this journey. In fact, I was pregnant with my 248 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: daughter when I released free of me, and so I 249 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 3: have had the benefit of walking out a lot of 250 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 3: these principles, you know, since they were born. Now that said, 251 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: these principles have served me as they have grown up. 252 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: Because one way that we are tempted to manage our 253 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: own image is through our children, and so how they perform. 254 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 3: We end up taking our insecurities and kind of placing 255 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 3: them on their shoulders, and so how they when they 256 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 3: start walking, when they start talking, when they start reading, 257 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 3: you know, all those things. You've been in those groups 258 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 3: where parents are saying, well, my four year old is 259 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 3: already rea getting you know, and you feel like you 260 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: need you know, you feel smaller essentially, yeah, as if. 261 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: You know, have we fallen behind? Is my child falling behind? 262 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 3: And what you're really concerned about is not just them 263 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 3: but you. And so the ways that we end up 264 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: taking our insecurities and just saddling our children with that, 265 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: that is something that and especially my husband and I 266 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 3: lead a church together, and so there's the added weight 267 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 3: on them of being pastors' kids. 268 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: And I never ever want them. 269 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 3: To feel like their behavior is managing my reputation like 270 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: I would never want. And I think we have a 271 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 3: really healthy church where I don't think anyone would say 272 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 3: you shouldn't behave this way because of who your parents are. 273 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: And I don't think we have a church like that. 274 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: But that happens all the. 275 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 3: Time, and that when that happens, that is a misplaced 276 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: identity on the part of the adult where they're treating 277 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: their children as if they are a reflection on them, 278 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: when that is a toxic way to relate to your child. 279 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: You know, going back to this true self you wrote 280 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: in your book, and I thought this was such a 281 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: good way to look at it. Are you more or 282 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: less your true self if you have to take a 283 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: job you don't like or if you stop working to 284 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: care for a family member. We live in this place 285 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, don't do that. You're not 286 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: being true to your true self. But maybe it is right, 287 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: So help us with that. Yeah. 288 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: Again, I think that is the problem with the performative 289 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 3: nature of identity that our culture hands us, which is 290 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 3: to say, your identity is the thing that you do, 291 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: the expression of your passions or your gifts. That you 292 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 3: are not your true self in fact, until you are 293 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 3: expressing yourself in such and such way. The problem with 294 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: that is that changes depending on your season of life. 295 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 3: That changes when you start having children. There can be 296 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 3: shifts that happen. It changes as maybe your parents' age 297 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: and you're not able to do something you used to 298 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 3: do because you need to care for them. It changes 299 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 3: as you age. 300 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: Where maybe your health starts to decline. 301 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 3: If your identity is bound up in being young, being athletic, 302 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 3: whatever it is, that identity is going to be stripped 303 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: of you. And so I think what the identity we 304 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 3: are handed in Christ is one that does not shift 305 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 3: with the seasons of our lives. 306 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: It is not a moving target. 307 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: It reminds me of that parable that Jesus compares the 308 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 3: house built on rock or the house built on sand. 309 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: And I think our culture hands us a notion of 310 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: identity that is essentially sand, that you can build your 311 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: life on, this understanding of identity that will not stay 312 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 3: the same, and when it inevitably shifts, because life shifts, 313 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: then you are left wondering if I just lost myself? 314 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: Who am I? It's extremely disorienting. 315 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 3: But I will also say that when that happens, because 316 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: I've experienced that too, Like when I was just remembering 317 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: this because my oldest son just turned thirteen. Yes, and 318 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 3: so I am a parent of a teenager now. 319 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 2: Which is pretty wild. 320 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 3: Yes, but I was remembering when I was pregnant with him. 321 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 3: We've been going to a marriage counselor our entire marriage 322 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 3: it's something that we really prioritize, and I remember meeting 323 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 3: with our marriage counselor and telling her that I felt 324 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: like I was about to become a single. 325 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: Mom, that I was going to be home. 326 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 3: I was working at my PhD at the time, but 327 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: I was going to be home, you know, with him, 328 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,479 Speaker 3: changing diapers, feeding him while my husband was out, you know, 329 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: doing his own thing. And I emotionally felt like I 330 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 3: was walking into this alone and my husband just looks 331 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 3: at me and is kind of like, I will also 332 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 3: be there, like he will have two parents rot one. 333 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 3: And I think what I was actually trying to articulate 334 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 3: was my identity was shifting. 335 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: That's what was happening, is I. 336 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 3: Was trying to reckon with the fact that my identity 337 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 3: was bound up in my freedom and my work and 338 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 3: all these things, and that was felt like it was 339 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 3: being taken from me. 340 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: But any time it feels like our identity. 341 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 3: Is shifting, that's actually incredibly helpful information. 342 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: For us because what it means is you have built your. 343 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 3: Sense of self on something that is unstable, and so 344 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 3: in the grace of God, the mercy of God, he 345 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 3: is revealing that to you in the season, and so 346 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 3: to let him, in his mercy, maybe take that off 347 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: of your foundation. 348 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't. 349 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 3: It shouldn't be there so that you can build your 350 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: life on the rock of Jesus. 351 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: So I would also say. 352 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: When those seasons come to not feel like a failure 353 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 3: to not beat yourself, but it's really we're to information. 354 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, because then it's like, Okay, now I can start 355 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: building on the Lord, on Jesus, on something unchanging. And 356 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: I'm glad I had that kind of wake up call. 357 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: Let's talk about this self forgetfulness. So when you say 358 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: let's forget ourself some more, what does this look like? 359 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: What do you mean? 360 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 3: So it doesn't as I said earlier, it doesn't mean 361 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: self rejection, it doesn't mean self neglect, it doesn't mean 362 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 3: the loss of self. 363 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: One really helpful way. 364 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 3: Of thinking about it is, if you were to break 365 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: your ankle one day, if you were to break your ankle, 366 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 3: you are going to give all of your attention to 367 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: that ankle necessarily, So you need to go to the hospital, 368 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 3: you need to get a cast or a brace or 369 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 3: whatever it is. You are going to change the way 370 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: that you live. You're going to change the way that 371 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: you walk, that you sit. Everything in your life is 372 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 3: going to change around this ankle because it's wounded and 373 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: it needs to be healed, and we do a similar 374 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 3: there's a similar dynamic emotionally that when you are emotionally wounded, 375 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: that pulls your focus in as. 376 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: Just as much. 377 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 3: And that's part of the reason why I wrote Gazing 378 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,719 Speaker 3: at God was realizing in Free of Me, it's a 379 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 3: little bit higher level of here's the problem, like here 380 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 3: to name that, to identify it, to understand it. But 381 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 3: after I published it, realizing why do we struggle with 382 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 3: self focus? Because sometimes it's vanity, sometimes it's pride, sometimes. 383 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: It's just run nuder the mill sin. 384 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 3: But what I have observed, especially in people in our church, 385 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: is usually when they are running things through a filter 386 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: of self, it's because there's pain there. 387 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: And there's even a lot of data around this. 388 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 3: People struggling with depression tend to use more me centered language, 389 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 3: like me and I pop up much more frequently, and 390 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 3: so self forgetfulness. 391 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: What that is about is a. 392 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 3: Freedom from that focus where you're not having to focus 393 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: on the self anymore. You're not constantly checking back in 394 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 3: on yourself, and for a lot of people, the internal 395 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 3: work that is necessary prior to that is some degree 396 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 3: of healing. But self forgetfulness is not the obliteration of 397 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 3: the self. The self is good, The self is made 398 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: in the image of God. God intends to resurrect our 399 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 3: whole selves. And so it's important for us to fully 400 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 3: affirm that your self is good and made in the 401 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 3: image of God. But self forgetfulness is that you are 402 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: not compelled to fixate on yourself anymore because you were 403 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: created for a higher purpose. 404 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: Takes the pressure off one hundred percent in a very 405 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: good way. You know. One of the questions you ask 406 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: in the book, and I hear this all the time, 407 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: and it's the idea of, well, if I don't look 408 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: out for myself, who's going to look out for me? Right? 409 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: And so talk to that to that person who's saying, well, 410 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: this is all nice, but I'm telling you what, if 411 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: I don't think about me, nobody else is going to 412 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: think about me. Because that sounds really compelling. 413 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know that has been. 414 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 3: In this season of my life in some ways my 415 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 3: greater struggle, actually, that scarcity mindset, because especially with me 416 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 3: as my time has felt more scarce, you know, with 417 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 3: I have three children now and we lead a church together, 418 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 3: and I'm doing more than ever and so it is 419 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: very easy for me to think my time is valuable. 420 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: I need to say no, Like I. 421 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: Kind of excuse putting myself first because my time is 422 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: so scarce, if that makes sense, and I realized and honestly, 423 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 3: in some ways, I've just newly been processing this myself, 424 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: like you got to love when you write things that 425 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 3: then kind of come back to you and convict you. 426 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: But realizing that is rooted in false beliefs about God. 427 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 3: That if I do believe that God is not abundant, 428 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: if I do believe that God is not enough, that 429 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 3: he is a god of scarcity and not generosity, if 430 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 3: I do believe that God does not, at the end 431 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 3: of the day have my back, then yeah, I do 432 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: need to look out for myself. I do need to 433 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: put myself first. But that's one of the reasons why 434 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 3: gazing at God or remembering who he is, remembering. 435 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 2: His character is also healing. 436 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 3: That that also pulls you out of that self focus 437 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 3: because it reminds you what is true instead of these 438 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 3: lies that feedback into that focus. 439 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: That God will fight for you, and that on the 440 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: other side, it is also all right to say no. 441 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: Right during those busy seasons it's okay to be like 442 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: that is way too much. We can definitely do that too. 443 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: I was reading this morning and I couldn't help but 444 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: say like, oh, I have to bring this to the 445 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: podcast because it was like, this is like what your 446 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: book is saying. So it's in Deuteronomy four to nine. 447 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: But take utmost care and watch yourselves scrupulously, so that 448 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: you do not forget the things that you saw with 449 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: your own eyes, and so that they do not fade 450 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: from your mind as long as you live. Moses talking 451 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: to the children of Israel about all they've seen about 452 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: leaving Egypt, the Red Sea, the whole thing, and make 453 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: them known to your children and to your children's children. 454 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: So he's saying, take upmost care, watch yourself scrupulously. So 455 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: yet be aware of yourself and take care of yourself. 456 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: And do this why so that I can fixate on myself, 457 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: so that I can post about myself, so I can 458 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: curate my world and show you how amazing I am. No, 459 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: so that you do not forget the things you saw 460 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: with your own eyes, that they don't fade from your mind. 461 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: This is gazing at God, right, And then as you're 462 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: gazing at God, then you teach this to your children 463 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: so that they know of of God's renown. So I 464 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: was like, oh, my word, that like encapsulates what you're 465 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: saying so beautifully. Mm hmm. 466 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true. 467 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: And again it's it is not a self forgetfulness does 468 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 3: not negate the importance of self examination. I mean, really, 469 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 3: like from the beginning, from Genesis three, when God asks Adam, 470 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: the very first question that God asks is where are you? 471 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 3: And that question that he poses to Adam is a 472 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: rhetorical one because God, the omniscient creator of the universe, 473 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 3: He's not stumped by Adam's awesome hiding place. 474 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: You know, where Adam is? 475 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 3: That that question is for Adam like, it's an invitation 476 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,719 Speaker 3: to examine himself and to understand and how did I 477 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: get here? Why did I stop believing in the goodness 478 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 3: of God? Why did I trust this serpent instead of 479 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: my father? 480 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 2: You know? 481 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: And unfortunately Adam is not able to do any of that. 482 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 3: Into your work, he just shifts blame and he points 483 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: to Eve. But we see this precedent from the beginning, 484 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 3: the importance of understanding yourself, the importance of inviting the 485 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 3: Holy Spirit to search yourself. But where a Christian understanding 486 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 3: would depart from the world's understanding. You know, you mentioned 487 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 3: the hero's journey, and I just was thinking about this 488 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 3: this week. 489 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 2: It's funny that you mentioned that. 490 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 3: Because it used to be that the hero's journey, you 491 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: think of the Odyssey, you think of Lord of the Rings. 492 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 3: The hero's journey was about this purpose, this quest that 493 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 3: is larger than yourself. But now we have and I 494 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 3: say this as someone who I love Disney, like I'm a. 495 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: Disney adult, but you have frozen. You have frozen too. 496 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 3: The hero's journey is discovering the true self. And so 497 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 3: we've lowered the ceiling of purpose pretty significantly. And it's 498 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 3: not as if that work doesn't matter. 499 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 2: It does. It's just not the end goal. It's an 500 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 2: important step on the way to the end goal. 501 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, as we close out, help us understand because it's 502 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, we can be on one side and then 503 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: we just kind of slowly kind of dip into the 504 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: unhealthy side. So help us kind of see when we're 505 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: in that healthy self awareness spot. But then if we're 506 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: drifting into that unhealthy self obsession. You know, awareness is 507 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: a lot different than obsession, right, So that makes sense. 508 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: Give us kind of those warning signs that we might 509 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: pick up on. Wait a minute, I'm kind of thinking 510 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: about myself too much right now. 511 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, ironically, narcissism obviously can be a sign 512 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 3: of self focus. But even that, there's a really fascinating 513 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 3: book called When Narcissism Comes to Church, and one of 514 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 3: his core ideas is that underneath narcissism is shame. I 515 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 3: think shame is a huge driver of self focus. But 516 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 3: one way that and you wouldn't put those things together right. 517 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 3: Usually it's it's I don't feel free, I don't feel 518 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 3: confident in myself. That is why I am focused on 519 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 3: myself again, it's that pain pulling your focus inward. But 520 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 3: one again counterintuitive sign that your your focus is off 521 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: is actually burnout. That and this is especially for parents, 522 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 3: so important to know. We aspire to be that self 523 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 3: sacrificing parent who lays themselves down for their children and 524 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 3: almost to the point of self neglect. And what I 525 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: want if that is anyone who is listening and you're 526 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 3: feeling burned out because you think I am living in 527 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 3: a way that is self vot is not self focused 528 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 3: like I'm trying to, you know, live for others, but 529 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 3: I'm feeling really burned out. And very often what that means, 530 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 3: what you actually forgotten, is that your children already have. 531 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: A perfect parent and it is not you. 532 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: It's not your job to be your child's perfect parent. 533 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: And when we forget that, it looks self sacrificing, but 534 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 3: it is actually you're trying to be the hero of 535 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 3: your family's story. When we forget that, you know, it 536 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 3: makes parenting heavier than it ever needed to be. When 537 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 3: your job, in many ways this is very light, which 538 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 3: is just to point your children to the one who 539 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: will never disappoint them, that when you fail, you can 540 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 3: go to them and you can apologize and you can 541 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: own it, and then you can share the good news 542 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 3: that you know who never disappoint you, who will never 543 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 3: lose their temper with you, who will never speak to 544 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: you in shame or you know, out of a place 545 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 3: of anger, and that is Jesus. And so for us 546 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 3: to be able to just point to him that that's 547 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 3: our highest calling and that you is easy, and that 548 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: burden is light. 549 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: It's so beautiful because we'll think like, oh, I'm such 550 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: a good parent because I'm going going, going, doing, doing, doing, 551 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: and then you realize, Oh, I think it's all on me, 552 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: but it's not like it's God. This has been such 553 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: a good conversation. How can people find out more about you, 554 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: Sharon and more about your. 555 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 3: Book my I'm very active on Instagram. 556 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: You can find me at Sharon H. 557 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 3: Miller and then you can also just go to Sharonhobbymiller 558 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 3: dot com for more information about. 559 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: Me, and we'll have those links in the show notes. 560 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending your time with us today. 561 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 3: It's been great being with you. 562 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: You can find out more about Sharon at her website, 563 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: which is she Worships dot com and her Instagram handle 564 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: is Sharon H. Miller and those links will be in 565 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: the show notes. And remember her new devotional is called 566 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: Gazing at God. Let's forget ourselves more and think of 567 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: the Lord. Let's pray together God. We just want to 568 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: put you in the first place in our lives and 569 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: our mind and our hearts, order our affections, that you 570 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: would come first and help us to look at you, Lord, 571 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: and not at the things around us, but to point 572 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: to you, our marriages towards you, our families towards you. 573 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Remember my friends, you 574 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: don't have to come from a happy home to create one. 575 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: You two can have a happy home.