1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Out of Zion podcast. I'm Shelley and 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: he's filling in for doctor Susan Michael. 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 3: Today. 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: I have with me Christopher Keel. He's the founder of 6 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: Present Witness and author of is God a Zionist. 7 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 3: Thank you for being on the show. 8 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 4: Obviously we're excited to be here. 9 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 5: Let's take a break and hear a message from one 10 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 5: of our sponsors. Welcome to the Israel Answer Series, Connecting 11 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 5: Israel the Bible, and you join Susan Michael as she 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 5: explores timely issues and current events from a scriptural perspective 13 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 5: to equip the Christian world with a balanced and biblical response. 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 5: Be sure to subscribe for future episodes which will ignite 15 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 5: your faith and bring the Bible to life in your 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 5: everyday world. Now let's join Susan with your Israel answers. 17 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, so tell me first of all, what is President, Yes. 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 4: President Witness was just kind of a at first, it 19 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 4: was just gonna be like a throw a brand. So Augustine, 20 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 4: the Church Father has this doctrine about the Jews called 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 4: the Witness. Doctor you know what I'm talking about, Yes, 22 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 4: And it's this pretty disparaging perspective on why the Jews 23 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 4: continue it to exist as a people, and so I 24 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 4: decided to take that and say, no, the Jews are 25 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 4: a present witness of the faithfulness of God. And it 26 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 4: was it's like an online brand that I do a 27 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 4: bunch of stuff under, and then it just kind of 28 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 4: became this theological, theological theological project, I guess specifically designed 29 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 4: to deal with a lot of the questions that are 30 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 4: being asked online. And so you know, I have that, 31 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 4: and then I do a podcast called The One New 32 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 4: Man with a seventy seven year old Jewish man who 33 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 4: was an early synagogue founder, his Clevenshim's father actually John Meyers. 34 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 4: So we kind of all do that under Present Witness 35 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 4: and One New Man. 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: So oh that's fantastic. So okay, I'm a church history narrative. 37 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: So just for the audience, explain. Augustine has this reputation 38 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: of being very metaphorical with the Bible, and so he 39 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: compares the Jewish people to Caine and the Mark of Pain. 40 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 3: So can you just explain that? 41 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 4: I think, yeah, well it is. It is interesting. So 42 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 4: his his whole thing was like he couldn't figure out 43 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 4: why did the Jews continue to exist? Why why were 44 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 4: they not assimilated after the destruction of the Temple and 45 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 4: the exposure of Jerusalem. And so you know, the whole 46 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 4: thing with the mark of Cain Kane after the murder 47 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 4: of Babel was forced to wander the earth, and that 48 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 4: was kind of like the judgment by God as he 49 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 4: would you know, he had this. Some people think he 50 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 4: would have the the like an unicorn thing that God 51 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 4: caught up. But his whole thing was to wander the earth. 52 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 4: And so that's what obviously An applied to the Jews, 53 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 4: like you are basically your permanent judgment is that you 54 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 4: will forever be landless and you will be walking around 55 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 4: the earth carrying your Torus scrolls as a representation of 56 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 4: what happens when you disobey God. So that was basically 57 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 4: his like and this was like an innovation, a positive 58 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 4: innovation from where church district was at the time, if 59 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 4: you can believe that. So that's kind of the idea 60 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 4: behind it. And so I wanted to take that idea 61 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 4: and present present witness just means the Jews are a 62 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 4: present witness to the faithfulness of God. 63 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: The one the one caveat that I will give credit 64 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: to Augustine is that he also took the Psalm slave. 65 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 4: Then that's true. You're absolutely right, and Jewish people, so 66 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 4: he did some good, which you're kind of like, it's 67 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 4: kind of amazing that you needed to find some biblical 68 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 4: reason to not like kill the Jews, you know, like 69 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 4: that's crazy, But you're absolutely right. He he he innovated, 70 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 4: I guess, and there. 71 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: Are moments in church history that they know that it 72 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: was because of that slave them, not command that they 73 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 2: did killed Jews when they had they. 74 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 4: So you're you're you are giving him some really some 75 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 4: some credit there some Yeah, yeah. 76 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: So is that? So what is your background? Are you 77 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 3: theologian biblical history? 78 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm wrapping up my my master's in theology. 79 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 4: I've probably read, I don't know, I don't want to 80 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 4: think about it, thousands of thousands of books on theology 81 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 4: of the Church in Israel. I consider getting my PhD, 82 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 4: but I'm not super interested in talking academics. I'm very 83 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 4: interested in the online layman, like just how how to 84 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 4: translate things for people that they that they'll listen to it, 85 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 4: and so I'm more interested in that. So I don't 86 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 4: know if I'll get a PhD. But you know, I 87 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 4: I'm I'm almost done with my master's in theology. I 88 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 4: would be done if it wasn't for the book. But 89 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 4: I just felt like the environment was was changing so rapidly. 90 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 4: I was like, I got to write this like right now, 91 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 4: you know, And so I stopped a lot of that 92 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 4: just to to finish this project. 93 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: And so what is your what is your niche? Like, 94 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 2: what are you studying in church history? That's interesting you 95 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: most You're you're saying that it's Israel Christian relationship. 96 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's predominantly that, you know, it's it's basically 97 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 4: looking at all the major church leaders from you know, 98 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 4: justin Martyr all the way through Carl bart like what 99 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 4: what have they what what has the church been saying 100 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 4: about the Jews? And what is this producing? And what 101 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 4: is this? So a lot of it is that is 102 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 4: that kind of look at it. But also, you know, 103 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 4: it's just interesting to see where things are at denominationally, 104 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 4: like with you know, specifically the Catholic Church for no straetade, 105 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 4: which was a big madisterial statement that I'm sure you're 106 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 4: aware of that was made in the seventies that really 107 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 4: took a major chink out of the wall of kind 108 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 4: of the divide between the Christians and the Jews, and 109 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 4: so it's interesting just to see where, I don't know, 110 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 4: it's so interesting was happening in America right now with 111 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 4: depending on what denomination you're in and what age bracket 112 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 4: you're in, you're going to be interacting with the Israel 113 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 4: conversation completely different. And so I think what's happened over 114 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 4: the last fifteen years. I think there was a lot 115 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 4: of our fifty years, there's been so much goodwill after 116 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 4: the Holocaust, which there should be obviously, and Jewish Christian 117 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 4: relations have come so far in that. But for whatever reason, 118 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 4: I would have thought after October seventh that would have continued, 119 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 4: but the reverse seemed to happen actually, where that good 120 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 4: will seems to be totally spent now. And so I 121 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 4: think what's happening is a lot of the old theological 122 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 4: demons are presenting a new clothes, you know, and so 123 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: you know, a lot of the questions are being asked, 124 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 4: and I think that there are some legitimate questions that 125 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 4: especially gen Z you know, as they're trying to figure 126 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 4: out like, okay, they're in a totally different environment than 127 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 4: what we were raised in you know, so like it 128 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 4: was much easier to get a home, it was easier 129 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 4: to get married, it was easier to have these they 130 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 4: were not economic challenges. They're also the first generation that's 131 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: totally online one hundred percent of the time, and I 132 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 4: think that world has a way of kind of warping perception, 133 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 4: and so they're up against these specific things, and so 134 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 4: I think it's very hard for them to process, like 135 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 4: why should we be sending a hundred million to Israel 136 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: when I can't afford a home? Like that's a reasonable question. 137 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: That's not inherently anti semitic, you know, when certain peple 138 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 4: ask it is, it is anti semitic. But there are 139 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 4: a lot of really good people that I think are 140 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 4: just very confused by the sworld that's happening right now. 141 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 4: So I wanted to write something that was interacting with 142 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 4: all the arguments, with you know, all the different sides 143 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 4: of this, you know. I basically the book has split 144 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 4: into three parts. The first futureapters are very brief history 145 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 4: of the parting of the way is if you're familiar 146 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 4: with theology at all, that's kind of what they call 147 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 4: the divide between uh, you know, the Church and Judaism. 148 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 4: In the first and second centuries. 149 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: So that's your starting that's the. 150 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 4: Natural starting point. And I kind of choose the four 151 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 4: or five major things on each side that I think 152 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 4: contributed to the schism, which you would be very familiar with, and. 153 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 3: Then these were all pivots and points. 154 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 4: Yeah exactly. So you know, I kind of start with 155 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 4: the Jewish response first, since it was primarily you know, 156 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 4: Jesus was considered a Jewish heresy at first, and so 157 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 4: you really see some of the initial responses from you know, 158 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 4: which we read about in the Bible pretty frequently, and 159 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 4: there's a couple other things I added, and then the 160 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 4: in the second chapter, it's the Christian response. Then when 161 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 4: when when the Church starts to become predominantly gentile to 162 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 4: it's you know, Jewish Jewish Jewish heritage and root system. 163 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 4: So those are the first two chapters, and then the 164 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 4: next six chapters are a biblical case for israel I. 165 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 4: I obviously discussed things like replacement theology and fulfillment theology, 166 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 4: which is kind of a rebranding of you know, replacement theology. 167 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 4: I take on a lot of anti rights work, which 168 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,559 Speaker 4: is a really kind of a spiritualized land theology, which 169 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 4: you know, Davies and others, some of these big modern 170 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 4: theologians you know, have a real problem with the idea 171 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 4: of physical land, which to me is a very gnostic idea, 172 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 4: which just simply means that you know, we're not We're 173 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 4: Christianity is not a gnostic religion, like we're an embodied religion. 174 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 4: We serve an incarnate Lord who became flesh, and so 175 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 4: we have to be real about a God that cares 176 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 4: with the earth that he's given us a steward, and 177 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 4: this includes land. And so I kind of argue against 178 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 4: what I consider like more of a gnosticism approach to land. 179 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: And then because you're saying, anti Right one of the 180 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: greatest like living modern scholars, but he does have this 181 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: his thorn that he presents. 182 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 3: He he doesn't believe that the Covenant is continuing. 183 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 4: He doesn't believe it's exactly right. So first of all, 184 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 4: I actually a lot of anti Right stuff, Like he 185 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 4: is an amazing apologist for I mean, his his work 186 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 4: on the resurrection is incredible, but he's probably the number 187 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 4: one replacement the theological modern scholar of our day, and 188 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 4: he's massively popular. And besides being thinking that the Covenant 189 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 4: is done. He also doesn't he doesn't value even the 190 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 4: idea of land among nations, you know, And I think 191 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 4: that that's that's just something that's really I think the 192 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 4: Church has really struggled with, like how do they get 193 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 4: behind the idea that people belong in a land? And 194 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 4: I think that's really hard for the modern mind for 195 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 4: some reason, you know, And it's easy for us to 196 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 4: say because we all have our own land, you know, 197 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 4: we're kind of talking about this like anti rights perfectly 198 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 4: fine in Britain having his own country, saying that well, no, 199 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 4: the Jews, Jews don't deserve a homeland, or the Jews 200 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 4: don't you know, it's not there's nothing significant about this idea. 201 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 4: But I think a lot of that theology comes from 202 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 4: a Christianity that's over over emphasizes the spiritual and underemphasizes 203 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 4: the physical world. And obviously, like the spiritual is of 204 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: the most importance, but I think that we have to 205 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 4: find a way that these two worlds are are interacting 206 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 4: and coming together. I mean, God's spiritual reality takes place 207 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 4: on the physical world, and so to just throw out 208 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 4: the idea that like nations and these things don't matter 209 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 4: or they're not significant. I think it's totally a misstep. 210 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 4: So I take on some of that stuff. I take 211 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 4: along a lot of the verses and things that are 212 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 4: people being you I have a chapter called the Tyranny 213 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 4: of Ignorance where I go through you know, this is 214 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 4: going to be stuff that I'm sure I see Eja 215 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 4: has been acting interacting with for a while. But the 216 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 4: Synagogue of Satan and all these just just misused stuff 217 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 4: that people which we saw, Yeah, I mean reference to 218 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 4: when the kid in the Mississippi burn total synagogue. 219 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 3: So it's like, this is not something we should turn 220 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: our eyes. 221 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 4: It's not archaic, you know. I think we we've been 222 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 4: for the last fifty years, We've been in this really 223 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 4: cool time where we could pretty much openly talk about 224 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 4: the Jewish people in Israel and do so not really 225 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,599 Speaker 4: even have to convince people that it's important. There was 226 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 4: kind of a willingness like, yeah, God's doing something here, right, 227 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 4: And I don't know if it's because of the conflict. 228 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 4: You know that people have a really hard time, you know, 229 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 4: I think that obviously the media spin on that's not good, 230 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 4: but I think it's also just hard for people to 231 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 4: see war and violence and to figure out, like how 232 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 4: has God involved in all this? You know? But I 233 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 4: think that we are now back into an era where 234 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 4: we have to be better at apologetics and being willing 235 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 4: to hear out an argument that maybe is repulsive to 236 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 4: us and give an honest answer in a serious way. 237 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 4: And so that's really what this book tries to do. 238 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 4: It's predominantly meant for people that maybe don't know where 239 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 4: they are landing on this issue, or like, you know, 240 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 4: maybe they followed Tucker Carlson for ten years and now 241 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 4: they're confused with what he's saying about Israel, and so 242 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 4: now they're confused about Israel, and so it's like it's 243 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 4: meant to really interact in an honest way with some 244 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 4: of the things that are being said. 245 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 5: Right now, let's take a break and hear a message 246 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 5: from one of our sponsors. Welcome back to the Out 247 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 5: of Zion podcast with Susan Michael. 248 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 3: So, how do you interact in an honest way? 249 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: And I'm sincerely working this because I'm asking this myself 250 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: and also not validate, right, Like, so how do you 251 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: engage the argument but not validate. 252 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 4: I think it's really helpful to do this case by case. 253 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 4: So I when I'm interacting, if I'm mentoring like a 254 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 4: twenty two year old who is in the nick Quentis 255 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 4: algorithm and he's seeing stuff and he's like, hey, like 256 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 4: does the telemud say this about me? Or does you know? 257 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 4: Like I am struggling financially, why are we sending so 258 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 4: much money? This is just a kid who's confused, Like 259 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 4: you can you can give him honest answers to that 260 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 4: and engage with the things that And I, you know, 261 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 4: I don't have to. I don't have to co sign 262 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 4: everything Israel does. I don't have to. I don't have to. 263 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 4: I can feel maybe pro work on I'll beabing Nan 264 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 4: Yahoo and still think Israel exists, And so I try 265 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 4: to give them a wide a wide ground to stand on, 266 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 4: like you don't have to see it exactly like this, 267 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 4: God is still at work even though these things are 268 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 4: happening like that we might disagree with on these issues. 269 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 4: And so I also recognize that there's really bad faith 270 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 4: actors though, and with that you can do this, you know, 271 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 4: But I think what we're in danger of is calling 272 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 4: everything that we might disagree with or we might find 273 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 4: repulse of just simply anti Semitic, when it could just 274 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 4: be a twenty two year old who's super confused and 275 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 4: doesn't know how to think about this, and they're still 276 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 4: able to be engaged and walked out of this moment, 277 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 4: if that makes sense. And so I just want I 278 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 4: want to see I want to see us do that 279 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 4: with the people that are asking questions in good faith 280 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 4: and are not the candae Owans and the Tuger Carlson's 281 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 4: who are clearly just like agenda based on what they're doing. 282 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 4: And you're never gonna like there's a proverb, an Indian 283 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 4: proverb that says you can't wake a man who's pretending 284 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 4: to be asleep, And there's a lot of that. But 285 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of good people that are 286 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 4: just seeing all this and they don't know what to 287 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 4: make of it. You know, they haven't had our experience 288 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 4: in Israel, they have it. They might not even know 289 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 4: a Jewish person. Honestly, most people don't like they just 290 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 4: you know, they don't they don't understand what these words are. 291 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 4: These you know, ninety percent of the time, these talml 292 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 4: quotes don't even exist. They don't understand all this stuff 293 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 4: that's that's swirling around them. And so for me, I've 294 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 4: just found it's really helpful to like just walk them 295 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 4: through this stuff as if they were my child and 296 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 4: they had just fallen into something that were unsure about. 297 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 4: And so but I can't do that if I'm like, hey, 298 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 4: you're an idiot and you're dumb for thinking this, and 299 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 4: you're this is an unserious question, and you're an anti 300 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 4: semi And so my concern is just that, like I 301 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 4: just don't want to see us lose this generation because 302 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 4: we're afraid to interact in a real way, in a 303 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 4: good faith way with those people that are just being 304 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 4: confused by the moment that we're in. If that makes sense, 305 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 4: it does. 306 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 3: So I'm going to give you one of the questions. 307 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: So I just I went with a group with ICJA USA. 308 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: We brought a group of young people to Israel. 309 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 3: And these people, these are people that were predisposed. 310 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: I mean, they love Jesus, they love them Bible, but 311 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: there are products of this generation and what they're hearing. 312 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: And so, like I was saying, you know, some questions 313 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 2: you don't want to validate, like share asking things like 314 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: was October seventh and inside Josh or did Israel kill 315 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk? 316 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 3: And so those are the questions I don't want to validate. 317 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, the main question that kept coming up, and I 318 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: know that this is a soundboard too that you know 319 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: that they're hearing, but I do think it's one, like 320 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: you said, that needs to have a response, is how 321 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: is modern Israel the same as biblical Israel? Because only 322 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: in their eyes, only biblical Israel. Biblical Israel should be 323 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: relevant to them. But they do see a big disconnect 324 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: between biblical and modern Israel. So how would you answer that? 325 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the most amazing things about Israel. 326 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 4: So there is another theologian, probably the first well known 327 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 4: Christian apologetics theologian was a guy named Pascal. But he 328 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 4: was a sixteenth century Catholic theologian and he had a 329 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 4: whole kind of defensive god belief in God because of 330 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 4: the Jewish people. He would go and he said, look 331 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 4: at the fact that the Jewish people still exist, there's 332 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 4: still this people like they. That is one of the 333 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: reasons why you should believe in God. Okay, now you 334 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 4: can take what he's saying there and you can elevate 335 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 4: that because the reality is is that the Jewish people 336 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 4: are the only people in the entire world that have 337 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 4: ever been removed from their land, had the language die out, 338 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 4: and then been restored to their land. And they're still 339 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 4: worshiping the same God that they did when all of 340 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 4: this happened. So they arch or social so sociologic gosh 341 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 4: my word, anthropologist and sociologists judge this by do they 342 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 4: worship the same God? Do they speak the same language, 343 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 4: and do they live in the same land? By this, 344 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 4: by these three things, there's not a single people in 345 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 4: the in the world that do it besides the Jewish people. 346 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 4: So you're telling me that I'm supposed to believe that 347 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 4: that's that's not the Lord that's doing this, like it 348 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 4: like that. That's an insane proposition for me. Like just you, 349 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 4: you can you can reason it out. And a lot 350 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 4: of people, I think, who asked the question that you're 351 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 4: asking me cannot understand how the modern Israel that doesn't 352 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: serve Jesus could be the Israel the Bible. But first 353 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 4: of all, the Israel the Bible was often being in 354 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 4: and out of judgment with the Lord. And that's just 355 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 4: the reality. And at no point did they ever stop 356 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 4: being His people, and in fact, why God was so 357 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 4: offended by this was because they were his people always, 358 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 4: and so he was offended that they would take his name. 359 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 4: And so I think that we also have to have 360 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 4: a correct perception about the restoration of Israel. And I 361 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 4: could talk a little bit about what I believe in this, 362 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 4: and I get a lot of my theology of this 363 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 4: and Ezekiel thirty six, thirty seven, thirty eight. But the 364 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 4: restoration of Israel, you know that Ezekiel talks about, was 365 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 4: first the physical restoration of the people. You know, it's 366 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 4: the bones coming back to life. It's this thing that 367 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 4: basically looks like it's been dead and on the physical 368 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 4: on the outside, it's being restored. And so I think 369 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 4: a lot of this is the metaphor of just modern 370 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 4: Israel being restored as an economy, as a national identity, 371 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 4: as a people. But the last thing that happened to 372 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 4: this army is that the spirit of the Lord comes in. 373 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 4: And so that that's my hope. Ilias you know, this 374 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 4: is I think we all kind of look through this 375 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 4: with a glass dimly to some degree, But but I 376 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 4: try to encourage people that that direction. I you know, 377 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 4: I just think that you can look at the reality 378 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 4: of it, and an honest person cannot deny that. You 379 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 4: know that God is clearly at work. And even the 380 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 4: Church Fathers and many of the medieval theologians, their main 381 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 4: argument against the Jews was, look, they've been kicked out 382 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 4: of their land. God has judged them. So you can 383 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 4: use their logic and say, look, the Jews are back 384 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 4: in the land, you know. And and I think it 385 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 4: is an it is unfair theologically to use the Church 386 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 4: Fathers that direction, but not use them the direction that like, 387 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 4: we can now clearly see the grace of God, and 388 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 4: the hand of God is back, not that it ever left. 389 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 4: It preserved the Jewish people, but has moved them back 390 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 4: into the land. And so that those are kind of 391 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 4: things that I say to that question. 392 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 2: That's a great that's a great answer, don I. I 393 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: just need to put you in my pocket and take 394 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: you on tour. Well, so I do have a copy 395 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 2: of her book The Goodness for Yous that I build 396 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: coffee on my computer, and so I have nothing to 397 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: read on the plane Risles. But are you reading this book? 398 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: And I'm really it's a great looking book. By the way, 399 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of I do Judge Books by 400 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: I do too, and it looks wonderful. 401 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 4: And that was the other thing I was like, Man, 402 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 4: so much of this, so much of our messaging right 403 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 4: now is it is off putting, you know, and it's like, 404 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 4: you're gonna if you're twenty and you're looking at this, 405 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 4: you're gonna be like what I wanted to make it unoffensive, 406 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 4: like you're not really sure what to think of it. 407 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 4: Like it's more So that was kind of the idea 408 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 4: that just. 409 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 3: One giant line of Judah may. 410 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 4: Right, like totally like a big yeah, exactly, a big 411 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 4: lion roaring. 412 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 3: Let's tell people where can they find it? 413 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 4: So the book comes out March seventeenth on Amazon, So 414 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 4: what you have is a pre release and it's gonna 415 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 4: be an audible kindle obviously physical and so yeah, that 416 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 4: March seventeenth, you can get everywhere Amazon ship. 417 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: Staple exactly, so exactly we could say it's available in 418 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: all bookstores. But yeah, we all know you're gonna get 419 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: we all know you're gonna go to a thank you 420 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 2: for so much for bring on the show and thank 421 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: you for listening to Out of Zion. 422 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 3: Hey just give me one more minute. 423 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: I want to offer you one of our free resources. 424 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: We have wonderful resources in our show notes and if 425 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: you go to our website at ICEJUSA dot org slash 426 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: show notes, you'll find links for a number of our 427 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: free offers. We have downloadables to help root you in scripture, 428 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: help you to understand the issues surrounding Israel and the 429 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: importance of be of Christian support for Israel, and don't forget. 430 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: Please follow us on Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn and stay connected. 431 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: Thank you and God bless We. 432 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 5: Hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of Zion 433 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 5: with Susan Michael. Be sure to subscribe to out of 434 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 5: Zion now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pray dot Com, 435 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 5: Salem Oneplace, Salem Life Audio. 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