1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer. I'm joined 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: by my co host, doctor Rashish Pharma, and today our guest, 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: our returning guest is doctor Kevin Flat He's an Associate 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: Dean of Humanities and professor of History at Redeemer University, 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: and he is also the author of a book called Secularization, 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: Social Order, and World History. And in that book he 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: talks an awful lot about sacred social order. We actually 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: did our previous podcast on the book and on that concept, 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,959 Speaker 1: and so if you want to check that out, we'll 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: put that link in the show notes. But today we're 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit more about sacred social 20 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: order and how it might be of use in Christian formation, 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: in helping people to have a framework and a deep 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: understanding what the scriptures are actually teaching, and maybe even 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: how it could be used in something closer to a 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: catechism than maybe we have in churches today. So that said, 25 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: welcome Kevin, thanks for coming back on the podcast. 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me back. James and Ashish looking forward 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: to our conversation. 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think it's probably wise for us to 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: start out. You know, when we say word it's like 30 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: sacred social order, people may have a vague idea of 31 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: what that is, but I think it's probably best if 32 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: we define our terms a little bit, and so maybe 33 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: we could start out just giving us a brief description 34 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: of what sacred social order actually is in your mind. 35 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll start by contrasting it with the way we 36 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: typically divide things up in the modern West. So, in 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: modern Western culture, very often we divide life into two categories. 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: There's religion and there's stuff that isn't religion, and so 39 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: religion has to do with God or the gods, and 40 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: then there's sort of everything else that really doesn't have 41 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: to do with God or the gods. And this is 42 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: a specifically Western way of looking at things that has 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: become dominant in the last couple centuries in the West. 44 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: But if you look at most civilizations and cultures in 45 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: world history, you find they actually don't divide things up 46 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: in that way, and instead many of them had this 47 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: way of thinking that all of human life, including the 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: way we relate to each other in society, across all 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: the different domains of human activity, ought to conform to 50 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: or harmonize with, something that's higher than us as human beings, 51 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: the will of God, the cosmic order, something like that 52 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: takes different forms in different cultures. But I use the 53 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: term sacred social order to capture this idea of an 54 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: alignment between human society and something that's higher than us 55 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: to which we owe reverence and obedience. And that applies 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: not just to a religious domain the way that we 57 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: would normally talk about that, but it applies to lots 58 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: of other things, to government, to the economy, to family life, 59 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: all these different domains. So sacred social order is a 60 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: concept for is kind of a shorthand for that, this 61 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: idea that the social mirrors or needs to harmonize with 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: the sacred, this thing that's higher than us as human beings. 63 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: And you reference some of them with those different domains. 64 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: I think in the book you talk a little bit 65 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: about orderer of space and ordering of time, which, just 66 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: by the way, are two of the categories that really 67 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: got me thinking about how this could be used in 68 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: churches to sort of cultivate a more catecheal sort of movement. 69 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: But then you also have things like interactions with the 70 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: deity government. Can you maybe walk us through some of 71 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: those and help us understand what each one of them is, 72 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: and maybe we just start with an easy one, like 73 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: interactions with deity seems like a fairly simple one. What 74 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: do you mean when we talk about interactions with deity? 75 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, so in pretty much every human culture that we 76 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: know of, people have believed in beings that are more 77 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 2: powerful than us, that are higher than us, Gods and spirits, 78 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: God with a capital G and monotheistic cultures, and we 79 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: have to approach them, we have to deal with them. 80 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: And so every society has had ways of interacting with deities, 81 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: with spiritual beings, and what that looks like varies a lot, 82 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: but very often it includes some kind of system of 83 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: sacrifice or offerings. It's not universal, but it's very common. 84 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: So you see this in ancient Mesoamerican civilizations, which famously 85 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: included an element of human blood letting even up to 86 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: like full on human sacrifice as a way of establishing 87 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: contact with the gods and sort of getting their attention, 88 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: but lots of other forms as well. And it also 89 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: includes typically some kind of prayer like communication one way 90 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: or two way communication. Often it includes ways of trying 91 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: to determine what the will of the gods is through 92 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: the reading of signs or omens, or through oracles or prophets, 93 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: and it includes a variety of other things that we 94 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: might classify as kind of worship. So these are the 95 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 2: sorts of things that happen particularly in temples and churches 96 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: and those sorts of places, but can also happen in 97 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: other places as well. So I see that as it's 98 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: a particular domain of human activity that you see. It's 99 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: not culture really specific. You see it across human cultures. 100 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: That this is one domain of activity is relating to 101 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: super human beings as I call them. And then you 102 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: have other domains too, And there could be a long 103 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: list of these, the ones that I talk about in 104 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: the book. In addition to interaction with superhuman beings. Is 105 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: the category of government, which includes what in modern times 106 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: you would call politics. It includes the category of kind 107 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: of gender, family, sexuality, marriage, that's kind of a connected 108 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: group of things. It includes the category of cultural transmission 109 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: from one generation to another generation, which includes formal education 110 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: but also more informal ways of transmitting culture. So those 111 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: are kind of four domains. There's other ones you could 112 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: include agriculture, economics, what we call the arts. And then 113 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: there's these three kind of general frameworks that I talked 114 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: about in the book as well, and so you talked 115 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: to you mentioned the ordering of space and the ordering 116 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 2: of time, so that's. 117 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: Two of them. 118 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: The third one is what I call principles of right action, 119 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: So it's kind of the overall framework of what's the 120 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: right way to act as a human being. And so 121 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: the category of law is part of this, especially if 122 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: we define law very broadly. The notion of law is 123 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: another one of these general frameworks. So these are things, again, 124 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: they're cross cultural categories. All of the major civilizations that 125 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: a look at in the book had some conception of 126 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: law or principles of right action. They had a way 127 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: of ordering space and time, and people engaged in the 128 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: domains of activity that we call worship and government, and 129 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: sexuality and cultural transmission or education. And again there could 130 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: be other examples. 131 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: And one of the key things, like when we talk 132 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: about government and politics and those kind of things, it 133 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: just worth clearing up that underneath a sacred social order 134 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: sort of a framework, or we're looking at government, the 135 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: governing officials are generally viewed in some way, shape or 136 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: form as agents or manifestations of the gods. Is that 137 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: a fair You probably nuanced at a bit. 138 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would nuanced a bit, but I often that 139 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: is the case. 140 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: Right. 141 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 2: So in a lot of historical sacred social orders, the 142 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: king is himself considered to be divine or to be 143 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 2: descended from the gods, either in a literal sense in 144 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 2: the case of the Imperial Family of Japan, where traditionally 145 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: they claim to be descended from the Sun goddess, or 146 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: in a somewhat more abstract sense. So the Emperor of 147 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: China historically was considered to be the son of Heaven. 148 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: That has more the idea that he is a servant 149 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 2: of Heaven, being kind of an impersonal stand in for God, 150 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: the idea that there's this overarching power over the universe 151 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: that has moral authority over human beings, and the emperor 152 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: is kind of the representative of that and the servant 153 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: of that. But there can be different versions as well. 154 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: So in Buddhism, the gods, they believe that there's gods, 155 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: but they don't believe they're really important in the same 156 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: way that they are in a lot of other traditions. 157 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 2: But there too, they have a concept of what they 158 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: call the righteous universal ruler, the person who follows dharma, 159 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 2: which is this great Indian word for justice and righteousness 160 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: and duty. So there's the righteous universal ruler who isn't 161 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: a god, but he is distinguished by the fact that 162 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: he puts into practice the principles of dharma. And so 163 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 2: in early Buddhist writings, one of the early emperors of India, 164 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: again named Ashoka, is held up as kind of an 165 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: example of this sort of righteous universal ruler. So the 166 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: ruler isn't divine. But what makes government a part of 167 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 2: sacred social order in that kind of a system is 168 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: still the idea that government and the purposes of government 169 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: is not something that we just kind of come up 170 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 2: with arbitrarily as human beings. It's not about us and 171 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: about serving us primarily or entirely. But it's about putting 172 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 2: into practice some kind of higher cosmic principle of justice 173 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: or righteousness, which isn't something we invent as human beings. 174 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: Our job is to learn what it is and to 175 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 2: follow it, rather than to come up with it ourselves. 176 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just word saying and then she shall let 177 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: you jump in here. But as I was reading through 178 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: Genesis again the other day, ran across Genesis twenty six 179 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: y five, and this is where Abraham is described as 180 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: one who followed all of God's commands, statutes, and laws. 181 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: And you read that text now through this grid and lens, 182 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: and what you really understand is that God's commands, laws 183 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: and statutes, Yes they probably haven't been given yet, right, 184 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: but they're reflective of the divine order that the people 185 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: are to be reflecting. And so when Abraham's described like this, 186 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: what he's really being described as is this sort of 187 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: moral authority or theological authority, this embodiment of the crucial 188 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: aspects of what it means to be in Israelite that 189 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: later Israelite generation should emulate in some degree. And so 190 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting sort of spot where I 191 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: see that showing up aside from a lot of the 192 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: kingship passages even in the Old Testament. 193 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really good opportunity to mention 194 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: that this idea of sacred social order in the book, 195 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 2: I derived the idea simply from looking at Indian civilization, 196 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 2: Chinese civilization, as Lam civilization, Mesoamerican civilization. But it is 197 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: actually a deeply biblical concept. We see it in the 198 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: Old Testament and the New Testament. And so God's law 199 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: in the kind of the eternal universal sense, right, Abraham 200 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: is following God's law. And then we have the Mosaic 201 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: law that's given to the people of Israel, which is 202 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: kind of a an instantiation of that eternal universal law 203 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 2: for a particular people in a particular setting. But what 204 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: is that law about. It's not just about or even 205 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: mainly about what we would consider religious matters, right, right. 206 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: It covers excuse me, it covers kingship, It covers the economy, 207 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: it covers the treatment of the poor, it covers how 208 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: do you govern handling things like communicable diseases. Right, So 209 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: it's it's a comparing blueprint for sort of here's what 210 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: a just a righteous society that conforms to God's law. 211 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: Here's what it would look like. 212 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, very good, super helpful. 213 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. I have a couple of questions that I think 214 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 3: will lead us into the sort of catechisis questions that 215 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 3: we're leading towards. Answer them in any order you want 216 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: or however you want. But the two that I think 217 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 3: are somewhat related are You've got this dynamic in say 218 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: the American setting, right where we hold these truths to 219 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 3: be self evident that all men are created equal, where 220 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: there seems to be a movement at that point, and 221 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: yet at the same time it's yet people are endowed 222 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 3: by certain with certain inalienable rights by a creator. Right 223 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 3: where there's not a complete disconnect in the formation of 224 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: law in this country as opposed to the way that 225 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 3: you're describing them kind of pan globally across many cultures 226 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 3: in slightly different ways where there's more direct connection. Maybe 227 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: the best way to describe it is you have initially 228 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: more of a deist concept in this country, and then 229 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 3: it seems to move into over the course of time, 230 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: a removal of even that deist element, right, where it's 231 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 3: just the ability to perceive, maybe in this content way 232 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 3: a universal ethic that we can just reason to hardstop. 233 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: Where they come from, how they're tied to anything beyond 234 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 3: what we know is irrelevant. So that's part one, Part two. 235 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: On the popular level, I can imagine you've encountered a 236 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 3: lot of this as well, even north of the border, 237 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: whether it be media, whether it be people, even Christians 238 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 3: that I talk to, love to talk increasingly about, Well, 239 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: the universe has lined things up for us. The universe 240 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: is that keyword. And I was noting that you use 241 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 3: the term universe and the way that you're describing the 242 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: Buddhist concept, and maybe there's some connection there. What do 243 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 3: you see as going on? I guess it's the short 244 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 3: version to join those two things. Right, You've got this 245 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 3: larger historical reality that what you're describing is also true 246 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: of early and medieval Christianity. Yeah, And yet we've got 247 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: this movement in what we think of as the modern 248 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: West and too, perhaps initially the deist mode and then 249 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 3: eventually just slopping off the necessity of the deist part 250 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 3: of it as well. And yet popularly we're more than 251 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 3: happy to keep talking about the universe lining things up, 252 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 3: the universe helping me out and so on and so forth. 253 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so these are very perceptive questions, and there's a 254 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: few things going on here. So one thing that I'll 255 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: note is it's one thing for us to talk in 256 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 2: terms of these kind of ideal types of like a 257 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: sacred social order, whether it's an Islamic one or an 258 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: early modern Christian one or a Buddhist one. You know, 259 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: there's kind of an ideal form of that, and then 260 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: there's what you actually have existing in any given society 261 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: at a given time. And the contrary, I think, to 262 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: what we often assume pluralism, in the sense of having 263 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: people sharing the same society who don't all share the 264 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: same fundamental worldview and belief even about sacred social order, 265 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: that's actually not a new phenomenon. There's lots of examples 266 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: of that historically, particularly in places like India and China, 267 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: where almost through the whole recorded history that we have 268 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: of those places, there are different accounts on offer. And 269 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: that's also true in our own modern history. 270 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: Right. 271 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: So if you look at the American Founding, and I 272 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: am not an expert as a historian on the American Founding, 273 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: but the works of kind of the really smart people 274 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 2: that I've read who have developed an expertise in this 275 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: that I find convincing. You know, they argue there's kind 276 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: of overlapping traditions that are represented among the Founders that 277 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: you see in the Founding itself, and you have kind 278 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 2: of a strand that you the Enlightenment kind of strand 279 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 2: which is more deistic and believes there's a creator, but 280 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: you know, it is suspicious of anything that looks like 281 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: revealed religion and wants to kind of just use pure 282 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: reason to derive here's what the political orders should look like. 283 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: So there's that strand that's represented. But then you also 284 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 2: have these other traditions that are really influential. You have 285 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: kind of the particularly the English political tradition, which has 286 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 2: a lot of Reformed influences through Puritanism and other ways, 287 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 2: which has developed a kind of worked out Christian conception 288 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: of the responsibilities of rulers and the limitations of the 289 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: powers of the magistrate and of the king, and that's 290 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: been developing for centuries out of like a much more 291 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: explicitly Christian framework. You have the very old kind of 292 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: civic republican virtue tradition, not republican in the modern sense, 293 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: but coming out of early modern and medieval republics, places 294 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: like Venice, which is partly looking to the classical pagan 295 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: tradition but then also has put it very much in 296 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: a Christian framework too. So what you get with something 297 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: like the Declaration of Independence, as I understand it, is 298 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: not kind of in pure form any one of these things, 299 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: But it's sort of like an overlapping consensus of a 300 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 2: few different strands that are coming together, some of which 301 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: are very explicitly Christian and they're thinking, others of which, 302 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: in the Enlightenment mode have kind of distanced themselves from that. 303 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: And so I think, and I don't at all mean 304 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: this in a negative way, there's a kind of inherent 305 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: ambiguity in the American founding where you can read the 306 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 2: American constitutional order, which I'll say as a Canadian who 307 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: who is very fond of the British tradition, and I 308 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: am a monarchist and I love our constitutional monarchy, but 309 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 2: I will say, you know, the American constitutional order is 310 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: absolutely brilliant. We have very few political orders in the 311 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 2: modern world that were sort of created and drawn up 312 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 2: at a particular time, Republican political orders that have stood 313 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: the test of time. And although we're going through a 314 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: turnailent period right now for the American political order. As 315 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 2: you are well aware, it's been remarkably robust through a 316 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 2: lot of things, so I have enormous respect for that 317 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: as a Canadian. But there's this ambiguity. You can read 318 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 2: it very easily within a Christian mode of thinking, particularly 319 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: a protest and particularly in evangelical motive thinking, harmonizes really well. 320 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 2: But of course Catholics have found ways of doing this also, 321 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: But you can also read it in a much more 322 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: deistic and even atheistic way. It's a little bit harder 323 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 2: to read it completely atheistically given the reference to the Creator, 324 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: but of course people can take it that way and 325 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: then come up with sort of purely humanistic grounds for 326 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 2: thinking that this is a good political order as well. 327 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: So there's this ambiguity I think that's kind of in 328 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: the heart of the American political establishment. And of course, 329 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: in different eras of American history, people have read it 330 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: in a more Christian way, most commonly through most of 331 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: American history, but in the last three generations or so, 332 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: it's become more common to read it in a not 333 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 2: explicitly Christian way, and often in an implicitly deistic or 334 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: atheistic way. 335 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: There's an interesting phenomenon that happened early in American history. 336 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: The federal government was relatively weak at the beginning, and 337 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: so even though it was you know, saying, hey, we're 338 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 1: going to have this separation of church and state in 339 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: the sense that where you know, the government is not 340 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: going to establish religion, the states actually had state established churches, 341 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: and so they also had religious tests for governmental service 342 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: those kind of things, And I believe it was in Pennsylvania, 343 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: but I'd have to go back and double check that. 344 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: But they used to have a very explicit reference to 345 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: if you wanted to serve as a political agent in 346 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: the government, you needed to believe in the Old and 347 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: New Testaments as inspired texts. And there was pushback from 348 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: a local synagogue, and they eventually amended that to something 349 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: like you need to believe that there is a God 350 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: and that that what you do on earth will garner 351 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: you rewards or punishment in the afterlife. There was this 352 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: sense in which they could broaden that out and still 353 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: hold on to this kernel of sacred social order that 354 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: said what we do in this life matters, and that 355 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: mattering should be a strong guide for how people interact 356 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: with one another here and now. And so even within 357 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: this ambiguity, which I agree with you on, that they 358 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: were finding these common ways to relink the social order 359 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: and the sacred order. What I think people are frustrated 360 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: about today are more frustrated about it, seems like, and 361 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: we see this sort of coming out in things like 362 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: Christian nationalism or what have you. I think they're concerned 363 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: that that linkage is gone, that there is no real 364 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: implication for what we do here, and that the you know, 365 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: the one who dies with the most toys is the 366 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: winner kind of idea. And so I'm wondering if you 367 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 1: see that as a shift towards secularization, you know, a 368 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: more pure form of secularization, as you describe it in 369 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: the book, And maybe it'd be worth sort of teasing 370 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: that out. But to me, there is this sort of 371 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: iteration in American history where you start to see a 372 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: broadening of the sacred social order away from specifically Christian 373 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: things out into things that would preserve some semblance of 374 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: a social order. And now we're sort of back to 375 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: this point where I'm kind of with Ashish, I don't 376 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: know that it really means anything to most of the people. 377 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, based on my understanding of American history, 378 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: that sounds exactly right to me. You kind of have Initially, 379 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 2: there's just sort of this background assumption, well, basically everybody 380 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 2: here is some kind of Protestant, right, So at a 381 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 2: federal level, we're not going to establish a church. At 382 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: the state level, some states are going to have established churches, 383 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: and there's going to be a high degree of toleration 384 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: of other kinds at this point Protestantism, right, maybe in 385 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 2: a few cases Catholicism and Judaism as well, But the 386 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: basic assumption is, you know, this is an overwhelmingly Protestant environment, 387 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: and so really what we're talking about is how do 388 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: we live together as different kinds of Protestants. And that 389 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: becomes more complex over time as you end up with 390 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: larger Catholic populations, as you move into the nineteenth century 391 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: of more immigration from Catholic parts of Europe. You have, 392 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: of course a Jewish presence which goes back very far, 393 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 2: which is important as well, and in relatively recent times 394 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: you have also the growth of still relatively small, but 395 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 2: populations of people following other traditions entirely. And so there 396 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: is I think a shift over time in the American 397 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: political consciousness from what we have here is basically a 398 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: Protestant consensus that can make room for other groups as well, 399 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 2: but it's basically a Protestant consensus. And public institutions, including 400 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 2: public schools, including state universities, for example, and this is 401 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: you can document this historically, they're just going to assume 402 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 2: a Protestant, generically Protestant ethos, even like I mean, even 403 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 2: state universities in the late nineteenth century in the US 404 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: had mandatory chapel service attendance at kind of generically Protestant 405 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 2: or even denominationally more kind of leaning one way or 406 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 2: the other chapel services, because the assumption was most of 407 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: us are coming from that, and we can have carvoutes 408 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: and exceptions and toleration of other groups, but the majority 409 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: consensus is this, and then you can broaden that out 410 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: to include Catholics. But there's a shift. And my understanding 411 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: is in terms of you know, American constitutional thinking, there's 412 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 2: a shift in the twentieth century, through a number of 413 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: Supreme Court cases, towards a more stringent idea of the 414 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 2: separation of church and State as requiring the exclusion of 415 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: any kind of religious perspective, So you get, you know, 416 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 2: the removal of prayer from public schools, you get the 417 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: controversy around should we have the Ten Commandments up in 418 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: the courthouses and those sorts of things. And they can 419 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 2: look back to things that some of the founders said, 420 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 2: like there's things that Jefferson said, for example, that can 421 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: provide a basis for that, but really that's not the 422 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: consensus in American constitutional thinking until the twentieth century. There's 423 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 2: a transition there and this there's parallel developments in other 424 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 2: West Extern countries, but they play out differently. Your listeners 425 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: are probably mostly not going to know a ton about 426 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: the Canadian experience, and I'm not going to go too 427 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: deep down that rabbit hole. But our experience is different, 428 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: partly because when the British conquered what is now Canada 429 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 2: in the seventeen sixties, seventeen fifties and seventeen sixties, there 430 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: was already a large French speaking Catholic population in what 431 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: is now the province of Quebec. What happened in New 432 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: France up until that point, and they made a very 433 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: significant decision, We're going to create a constitutional order here 434 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 2: within the British Empire in Canada that is going to 435 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: allow French speaking Catholics to preserve their religion and their 436 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 2: language under the umbrella of British institutions. And so from 437 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 2: the beginning, or very early in Canadian history, you have 438 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 2: an attempt to say, Okay, we have Catholics, and we 439 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: have Protestants, mainly French speaking Catholics the English speaking Protestants, 440 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: and we have to build a political order that accommodates 441 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: both of those, but where the kind of overarching dominant 442 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: viewpoint is Christian and basically defaults to Protestantism as the 443 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: dominant view but with space for Catholicism as well. And 444 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 2: in Canada that actually is never really officially repudiated, but 445 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: in practice it kind of breaks down surprisingly recently, even 446 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: sort of like nineteen sixties to nineteen nineties is kind 447 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: of when a lot of the legal changes came that 448 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: demolished that. So even myself, you know, I was born 449 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty went to a public school here in Canada, 450 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: and when I was in grade two, so this is 451 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: kind of mid to late eighties, we still said the 452 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: Lord's Prayer every morning in my public school. It was 453 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: the last year. It was legal to do that because 454 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: there was a core case, and I think it was 455 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight or so where they said, well, if 456 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: you're gonna do the Lord's pray, you have to give 457 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 2: equal time to all prayers of all faith traditions. And 458 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: it was already very unusual that that teacher did that 459 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: in the public school at that time, but it was 460 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: still kind of legally that was still the thing you 461 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: could do. So there's a similar transition that happens over 462 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: a different period of time. And there's no even today 463 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: in the Canadian political order, there is no constitutional basis 464 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: really for an absolute separation of church and state in Canada, 465 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: even though we don't have an established church. Sure, the 466 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: head of state of Canada is also the head of 467 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 2: the Church of England. All over our coins say that 468 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: he rules by the grace of God, you know. So 469 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: if you pick up a Canadian coin that's been minted 470 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: since His Majesty King Charles became king, it says d G. 471 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: Rex So de gratia Rex King by the grace of God. 472 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: When it was Queen Elizabeth, it was DG. Regina or 473 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: Regina right Queen by the grace of God. 474 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: So there's a. 475 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: Sense in which even now in a very secular country 476 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 2: like Canada, our political order is not fully secularized. There's 477 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: still these vestigial Christian things. So again reality is more 478 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: very interesting. 479 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Here's what you think. 480 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, A former colleague of mine introduced to me this 481 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 3: notion that in the American setting, because you don't have 482 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: a centralized established church, right even when in the period 483 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 3: you're talking about, right where different different colonies that became 484 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 3: states might have had their own distinctiveness, right, for instance, 485 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: Pennsylvania as the Quaker state. Because of that ambiguity, that 486 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 3: leads you into what the idea of the United States is. 487 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 3: And no establishment of a particular church, the unifying thrust functionally, 488 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 3: maybe intentionally, but probably functionally at the time, makes the 489 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 3: United States itself have to occupy that position of the 490 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 3: religious identity, so that to be an American, to buy 491 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 3: into the idea of being an American, is to buy 492 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: into our religious identity, right, and so within that would 493 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: be the sorts of things we talk about when we 494 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 3: speak of silverl religion. You see this. I think of 495 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 3: a good friend of mine who went to Mayo for 496 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 3: med school, and he talked about the eeriness of stepping 497 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 3: foot on campus that as much as he loved the experience, 498 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: it felt very much like a religious experience where you've 499 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 3: got the center of campus. Is it very much feels 500 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 3: like the cult statue to the Brothers Mayo, the way 501 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 3: in which everyone walks around in their priestly white robes, 502 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 3: right the medical guard and right down to the very 503 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 3: center of it. But you can think about that in 504 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: terms of really that that is very much still the 505 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 3: experience I had. I went to the University of Iowa, 506 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 3: and you've got the fight song, and you've got the 507 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 3: religious sort of gathering, and you've got this sort of 508 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 3: sense of school pride that's built. It's supposed to override 509 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 3: everything else. Right, So you can also be a Quaker, 510 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: you can also be a Baptist, but that takes second 511 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 3: stage to the Cult of America. I think about that 512 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 3: in conjunction with I think it was Martha Nusbaum, if 513 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 3: I'm remembering correctly, wrote a book where she's describing how 514 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 3: the growth of India as a democracy post partition is 515 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 3: deliberately trying to draw upon that. Right, So you've got 516 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 3: the music built into it. The Gore who creates the 517 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 3: Indian national anthem is trying to make that corner reality. 518 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 3: The siding with Mahatma Gandhi over Bosa is supposed to 519 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 3: be an attempt to create a cult of India, so 520 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 3: to speak, where you can be Muslim, you can be 521 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 3: Hindu and Hindus itself abroad idea, as we talked about 522 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 3: last time. Now in India you've got the Nehendra Modas 523 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 3: who are very much leaning heavily into a repealing of 524 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 3: that and to giving you a distinctly religious identity which 525 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 3: in some ways fits more the historical model in Canada, 526 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 3: as you describe whether or not it's very religious, and 527 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 3: arguably in some ways it's very irreligious. Still at its 528 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 3: core is this idea of a state church, at least 529 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 3: functionally right through the Anglican the Bishop of Canterbury being 530 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 3: the head of the church right and that being connected 531 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 3: to King Charles as the king. It's an Anglican identity, 532 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 3: and the US you could not do that, right, even 533 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 3: if people were to agree, okay, Christian from the onset, 534 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: you can't do that. Now, where I'm going with this 535 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: is that I'm leaning towards my colleague. I think he's 536 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 3: onto something, and I'm gathering by your nodding that you 537 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 3: think so as well. But I'm wondering if that inherently 538 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 3: requires sort of what we might think of as a 539 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 3: secular catechism in order to make people into this religious 540 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 3: identity of America first. 541 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yeah? 542 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 2: No, I think this is very insightful, and so one 543 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 2: of the realities that it's pointing to here. So I 544 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: distinguish between sacred social orders and what I call the 545 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 2: secular order. And I'm using here the word sacred as 546 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: a shorthand for this idea. There's something higher than us 547 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: as human beings, like kind of a cosmic order, a 548 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: divine order. But there's also an equally valid sense in 549 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: which you can talk about there being sacred secular values. 550 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 2: And so what I mean by is I have a 551 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: couple of colleagues here at at the University of Waterloo 552 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: here here in Ontario who've recently authored a paper and 553 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 2: they talk about the secular sacred canopy and what they're 554 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 2: that it's a nuanced argument, but part of what they're 555 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 2: getting at is the idea that also in a secular society, 556 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 2: there still has to be some kind of shared framework, 557 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 2: what is reality and what are the sacred values, what's 558 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: important and what can we kind of unite around. And 559 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 2: in the case of these more secular societies, if you 560 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 2: don't have an agreed upon sacred social order, it doesn't 561 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 2: mean that sacred values in this other sense disappear. You 562 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 2: still have sacred values, you still have symbols that are sacred, 563 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: you still have rituals that are sacred, except now those 564 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 2: things have to be located somehow in the human plane. 565 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 2: So one form that that can take is national identity. 566 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: So you know, that can be a kind of American 567 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 2: civil religion where what becomes sacred are the symbols of America, 568 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 2: of the flag, of the American constitutional order, of the 569 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 2: Bill of Rights, of the office of the President. That 570 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 2: kind of accumulates a certain kind of symbolism and gravitas 571 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 2: around it, that sort of stands in for the place 572 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: of a divinely ordained monarch right. And those things I 573 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 2: think are an indication that, you know, really there can't 574 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 2: be a vacuum. There might be a transitional period where 575 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 2: we're not sure what the sacred things are. But if 576 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 2: you get rid of if you do away with a 577 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 2: sacred social order as we do in secularization. My argument 578 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: is that secularization is a revue social order. It's not 579 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 2: like that space stays empty, you replace it with something, 580 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: and that nationalism. It can be extreme forms of nationalism 581 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 2: like we see in fascists and Nazi movements in the 582 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 2: middle of the twentieth century. It can be a worldview 583 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: and a framework like communism which absoluteizes egalitarianism and anti 584 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 2: oppression and tries to build a whole society around those 585 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 2: things as sacred values and comes up with its own 586 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: rituals and ceremonies and sumpost to go with that. I 587 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 2: would even say, and here we're starting to tread into, 588 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: you know, controversial waters. I don't know how it is 589 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 2: in the US, but right now, it's the month of 590 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: June in Canada. It's obviously the month of June in 591 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 2: the US as well, but one of the things that 592 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 2: we see in the month of June in Canada all 593 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 2: of the schools, all of the publicly funded schools in 594 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 2: Ontario are flying a flag in addition to the Canadian flag. 595 00:37:58,360 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 2: And I think we all know what flag that is 596 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: sacred flag in a lot of ways, right it can't 597 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 2: be challenged, it can't be questioned. It's a sacred value, 598 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 2: and it symbolizes something that has come to be sacred 599 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 2: in our society, which in this case is gender identity 600 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 2: and sexual orientation as expressions of what you might call 601 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 2: our core sacred value of the individual, individual autonomy, individual authenticity, 602 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 2: individual self expression. Right, these things are sacred or seen 603 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: as sacred because they're manifestations of these core sacred values 604 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 2: and fundamentally human like. Right, So the human being, the 605 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 2: human individual becomes the sacred thing. So that's a bit 606 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 2: different from nationalism, where there's a human community becomes the 607 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 2: sacred thing and they coexist obviously in this kind of overlapping, 608 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 2: messy existence for us as Christians, I think, and this 609 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 2: might start to turn us into some of the pieces 610 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 2: question for us as Christians, I think we have to 611 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 2: be aware of what are these alternative sacred values in 612 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 2: our society, which in our society are going to be humanistic, 613 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 2: secular versions of the sacred And that might be the religion, 614 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 2: so to speak, of American nationalism, it might be the 615 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 2: quote unquote value system that's represented by a rainbow flag. Right, 616 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 2: And so an important question for us is might we 617 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 2: inadvertently kind of subordinate the teachings of Christianity and a 618 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 2: Biblical scale of values to some other set of sacred 619 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: values that are really prominent in our society. Which again, yeah, 620 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 2: and I'm here, I'm not picking on left or right. 621 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: You see, right, on the right, the temptation maybe is 622 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,720 Speaker 2: the religion of American nationalism. On the left, the temptation 623 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 2: is maybe, you know, I don't know if religion is 624 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 2: the right term, but this other set of sacred values 625 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 2: around sexuality and gender as expressing kind of the sacredness 626 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 2: of the individual. So that's I think a beginning of 627 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 2: sort of a catechetical way of thinking about that. 628 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just to circle back to what Ashesh 629 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: was saying, I tend to agree. I mean, my work 630 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,839 Speaker 1: on American civil religion. I don't know that I came 631 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: to the exact same conclusion as it was Michael McDuffie 632 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: I assume you were talking about. So I'm not sure 633 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: I came to the exact same conclusion as Michael McDuffie, 634 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: but very close you start to see that the God 635 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: language is co opted and it no longer has the 636 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: same conceptual background as we would want it to have 637 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 1: as Christians. So whenever we say the way I usually 638 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: explain it to people, when we're talking about Christian nation, 639 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: we're not saying the same thing is when we're saying 640 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 1: Christian worship or Christian doctrine. Those are two different of Christian. 641 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: And so the concept behind the word actually does matter. 642 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: And so when we're saying under God, we're probably not 643 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 1: saying under the Triune God, right, We're probably talking about 644 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: under the transcendent idea or being whichever one you'd prefer. 645 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: And so you have this sort of slippage in the language. 646 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: And I think that this does get at the catechisis question, 647 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: because what I see in your work and in this 648 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: notion of sacred social order, I actually saw first in 649 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: that ordering of time. And so I've done a lot 650 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: of work in technology, and one of the things that 651 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: has come out and surface from that is they are 652 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,280 Speaker 1: these inconspicuous patterns that technology tends to ingrain within our lives, 653 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: and we don't notice that we're really giving them up 654 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: until it's way gone. This relates very strongly both to 655 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: an ordering of space and an ordering of time. With 656 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: regard to technology, are space has been sort of exploded, right, 657 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: because we can do travel so easily because we can 658 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: transcend space and the way we're doing now, it's not 659 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: all bad, but we can you know, we don't have 660 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: to travel to Canada or you don't have to travel here, 661 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: so we can have this conversation. But it creates a 662 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 1: dissonance with space to some degree if we don't think 663 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: about it. And then time obviously, where everything can be 664 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: much more immediate. This move toward increased efficiency is always 665 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: framed as a good thing, and it probably isn't. And 666 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: so these notions seem to me to be I think 667 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: in terms of like Pierre Bordieau, he would you know, 668 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: these are counter fields, right, they're they're they're they're counteracting 669 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: the formation of an existing world that we live in, 670 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: and they're pointing us to counter practices that we would 671 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: do within the kingdom. And now we're able to reform 672 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: ourselves into kingdom people who are aware of these other 673 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: pressures that are pushing in on us, and we're resisting 674 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: those in order to be formed and shaped according to 675 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: the pattern of God's sacred social order. The trying God's 676 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: sacred social order. That's sort of the narrative I have 677 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: in my head for how this could be potentially used. 678 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, the way that we relate to space and time crazy, 679 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 2: it's yeah, So it's we're now living in the secular order, right, 680 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,839 Speaker 2: So space and time are kind of disenchanted for us, right, 681 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 2: So yeah, I talk, we don't need to get into it, 682 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 2: or we can if you like. But I talk in 683 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 2: the book about the incredibly rich and complex ways that 684 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 2: sacred social orders structured time and space in these very civilizations. 685 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 2: Quite different across the different examples, yea, but all of 686 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 2: them had the sense that, like, this isn't an empty 687 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 2: or meaningless expanse of space or expanse of time. There's 688 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,319 Speaker 2: purpose and order and meaning that is built into it. 689 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 2: And as humans we have an important place in that. 690 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 2: But we're not the masters of it. But in a 691 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 2: secular order. And of course this is partly enabled by 692 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: our technology, but then also reflected in our technology and 693 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 2: the way we use and think about our technology. We 694 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 2: are the masters. We think of ourselves as the masters. 695 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,720 Speaker 2: Time is whatever we want it to be, right, It's 696 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: just this empty expanse moving forward infinitely, of one day 697 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 2: following another, and we impose on it whatever shape we want. 698 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 2: We try to optimize it. We try to control it, 699 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 2: we try to be efficient with it, we try to 700 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 2: manage it. But all of that implies there's this kind 701 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 2: of instrumental control. It's there to be used and dominated 702 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,959 Speaker 2: by us, right, And same thing with space, right, space, 703 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 2: sugg just this. It's a container. It's an empty container 704 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 2: for us to do what we want as human beings. 705 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 2: And I think this is related to some of our 706 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 2: environmental and ecological problems as well. We look at the 707 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 2: soil as this kind of inert thing that we just 708 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,479 Speaker 2: use for our purposes instead of a thing that has 709 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 2: life and integrity of its own that has to be 710 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 2: respected and lived with it. 711 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: Right. 712 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 2: And so there's a connection here, I think, to some 713 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:34,800 Speaker 2: of our misuse of the earth. But again, it's about control. 714 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 2: It's about using these things as masters rather than as 715 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 2: stewards and caretakers of them, and a refusal to acknowledge 716 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 2: our limits as human beings that were just one part 717 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 2: of a larger cosmos that we didn't create. It's a 718 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 2: gift to us, a gift that we receive with gratitude, 719 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 2: but then also need to steward and cultivate. And that 720 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 2: applies to time and space. 721 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: You look at the. 722 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 2: Sabbath laws and the land laws in the Law of Moses, 723 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 2: and there's this fascinating parallelism. 724 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:11,399 Speaker 1: Right. 725 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 2: So you have the Sabbath in time every seventh day, 726 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 2: every seventh year, every fiftieth year after the forty ninth year, 727 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 2: the cycle of seven sevens right, Right, there's time that 728 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,439 Speaker 2: is set apart where we are not the masters, we're 729 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 2: not doing anything productive, we're not exerting control. And that 730 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,320 Speaker 2: applies to the land too. The land gets at sabbath rests, 731 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 2: or is supposed to. If it doesn't, then you get 732 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 2: sent into exile and it gets the Sabbath rest anyway, 733 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 2: but you don't harness to the edges of your field. Right. 734 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 2: So you know, there's this, i think recognition, even outside 735 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 2: of explicitly Christian circles, that this mentality of mastery and control, 736 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 2: which is tied up with the scientific revolution and the 737 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,799 Speaker 2: industrial revolution in Western culture and has immediately given us 738 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 2: a lot of really good things. It's good that we've 739 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 2: eradicated smallpox, right, So it's not all bad, but it 740 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 2: has its dark side. Hard mood Rosa, who's a German 741 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,319 Speaker 2: sociologists social critic. You know, he's written this book. He's 742 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 2: written a few books about various things, but one called 743 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 2: The Uncontrollability of the World, and he points out there's 744 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 2: this paradox that by thinking that we can control everything 745 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 2: that it's sort of laid at our feet for us 746 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 2: to master, paradoxically, we actually cut ourselves off from meaning 747 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 2: and from the most meaningful experiences in life, which come 748 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,439 Speaker 2: out of things that are uncontrollable. 749 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:46,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. 750 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 2: So, yeah, so there's there's there's something to that. And 751 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 2: so I think, then, as Christians living in a very 752 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 2: secular world where we've come to see time and space 753 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,799 Speaker 2: as empty, disenchanted things that are just there for us 754 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 2: to control and master and manage and optimize, how do 755 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 2: we break out of that? And how do we do 756 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,240 Speaker 2: that in a way that recognizes the lordship of Christ, 757 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 2: that recognizes that it is God who is the master 758 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 2: of time and space, not us. He's created it for 759 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 2: us to live in, but we're not the masters of it. 760 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 2: We're his stewards. But also doesn't then impose on people 761 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 2: a lot of kind of man made rules and regulations. 762 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 2: And this is of course the danger of you can't 763 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 2: just go back to medieval Catholicism. The reformers were right 764 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,359 Speaker 2: in kind of challenging and simplifying a lot of the 765 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:53,839 Speaker 2: things that had crept in around sacred conceptions of space, pilgrimages, relics, shrines, altars, 766 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 2: and things that had crept in around sacred conceptions of time, 767 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 2: Saints days, feast days, obligatory fast and so on. I 768 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 2: didn't go back to having space for those kinds of 769 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,960 Speaker 2: things without them making them a law into themselves. And 770 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 2: one place to begin maybe is the sabbath a practice 771 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 2: of Sabbath or recovery of the Sabbath. And here, of 772 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,480 Speaker 2: course I'm speaking as a Protestant, but in our pistant 773 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 2: churches where in the last few generations we've largely i 774 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 2: think lost sight of the Sabbath as a sanctuary in time, 775 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 2: as one author has called it. 776 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that I did my dissertation on Sabbath, 777 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,720 Speaker 1: so I'm always awesome. Yeah, Sabbath is awesome. I think 778 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,080 Speaker 1: as I've thought through this, the other thing I think 779 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,479 Speaker 1: is we just have to get a sense of what 780 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: the sacred order actually is that we're living in, not 781 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 1: the ideal one, but just this conversation we've even had 782 00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:00,839 Speaker 1: today of what might those sacred order pieces be, and 783 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: how is it that we are adopting them in ways 784 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 1: that we don't really recognize? You know, I think that 785 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,120 Speaker 1: especially early on when I was first starting to talk 786 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: about technology or even politics, people took it as you know, 787 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,040 Speaker 1: your anti politics or anti tech, and I had to 788 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 1: really learn to nuance it because I'm not saying we 789 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,799 Speaker 1: should get rid of all technology, but we have to 790 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,879 Speaker 1: recognize that these things do come with revenge effects, right. 791 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: They are forming and shaping us in very particular ways, 792 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,440 Speaker 1: and so as we adopt them, we need to understand 793 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,400 Speaker 1: what ideology we need to be combating as we do that, 794 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,240 Speaker 1: and how is it that these things are are pushing 795 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,759 Speaker 1: us toward a notion of the sacred that we don't 796 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,839 Speaker 1: want to adopt. And so we can use them more 797 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,719 Speaker 1: as tools, But we have to be pretty vigilant to 798 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: do that. And so I'll leave it there at asheesh, 799 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure you have some follow up questions. I let 800 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,080 Speaker 1: you go ahead, you know I do. 801 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 3: There's a lot of voices swrolling in my head, so 802 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 3: I'll see if I can bring them together into something succinct. 803 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 3: As you were talking. As you both were talking, the 804 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,759 Speaker 3: language of space kept coming up and Kevin, you described 805 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,359 Speaker 3: space in terms of container. I often think of it 806 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 3: as it's something mouldible, right, It's something that is expansive, 807 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 3: no boundaries. We think of outer space. But it's a 808 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 3: thing that we enter into. We shape it. And kadakisas 809 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:39,279 Speaker 3: precisely at this point can also show the possibility of malformation. 810 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,759 Speaker 3: So if we're catechized into space, moldible space that we 811 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 3: enter into, the domineering sort of thing flows out of that. 812 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 3: We control this. I like to call it the McDonald's effect. Here, there, 813 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,719 Speaker 3: and everywhere. It looks the same because we've shaped it 814 00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 3: according to our preferences. You know, you're driving through I 815 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,919 Speaker 3: once took a road trip to BC and you pass 816 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,320 Speaker 3: through all these areas that are very foreign to a 817 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:13,560 Speaker 3: Chicago area kid, Right, and you have a choice to 818 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 3: make McDonald's. 819 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:15,399 Speaker 1: I don't. 820 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,800 Speaker 3: I'm not interested, but I know what it is. Sally's 821 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 3: Beisenberger Shop could be really good, it could be a 822 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:29,960 Speaker 3: painful experience, right. And McDonald's is hedging its bet that 823 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,239 Speaker 3: you're going to go with the predictable, right, and that 824 00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,960 Speaker 3: sort of facilitates it's in a cultural way. A catechisis 825 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,800 Speaker 3: of how we begin to think about space rather than place, 826 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,120 Speaker 3: a place where I received myself from. So the voices 827 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,759 Speaker 3: I have swirling in my head, some of them your 828 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,280 Speaker 3: own work, Kevin. I'm also thinking of Willie James Jennings 829 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:56,960 Speaker 3: and his work as he talks about our Christian theologies 830 00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 3: of creation have lost a sense of place and replaced 831 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,280 Speaker 3: it with a sense of space, and as a result, 832 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 3: we don't see ourselves as shaped, we don't see ourselves 833 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,760 Speaker 3: as belonging to places of sticking your hands in the dirt. 834 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,440 Speaker 3: But I also think of the work of Norman Wurzba, 835 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,960 Speaker 3: who we just talked to, So be on the lookout 836 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 3: for that everyone, But he talks about the same sort 837 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 3: of thing in terms of we look at the Genesis 838 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:29,759 Speaker 3: account of humanity being given creation in some sense as dominion, 839 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,719 Speaker 3: and we take dominion to be domineering, We take mastery 840 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:38,000 Speaker 3: to be control instead of taking it more artistically right, 841 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,000 Speaker 3: where the work of the gardener mastering the garden is 842 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:45,040 Speaker 3: never ever to control it. And I wonder if that 843 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:50,440 Speaker 3: katechisis is so deeply rooted. You see those effects already 844 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,280 Speaker 3: there in medieval Christianity. You see it as they encounter 845 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,120 Speaker 3: first nations, peoples and their initial impulse isn't to see 846 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,439 Speaker 3: them as doing something beautiful of the land, the land 847 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 3: that they coveted and didn't recognize that what made it 848 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 3: so covetable was the deep, the deep natured hands in 849 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,799 Speaker 3: the soil approach to the land of seeing themselves as 850 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,239 Speaker 3: belonging to it and understanding it and being able to 851 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,200 Speaker 3: work from within that place. Now, on this side of 852 00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:25,840 Speaker 3: the project, the catechisas of space seems like it continues 853 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 3: to hinder us, right, so as Christians, it becomes something 854 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:34,239 Speaker 3: to fight. We don't see and I'm not saying all 855 00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,840 Speaker 3: things are good, but we don't see the possibilities in 856 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 3: all things right. We don't see the chance to be 857 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 3: able to say, okay, this. 858 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 2: Is where I am. 859 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,960 Speaker 3: I don't have the ability to say, let's rewind five 860 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 3: hundred years and reset things. The earth is in the 861 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 3: shape that it is. Now, what what can we use? 862 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:51,279 Speaker 3: Can we take these things that have been made for 863 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 3: mastery and reimagine them? And I wonder if that's the 864 00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 3: work of the catechisus that we have to get to 865 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 3: have that ground level, hands in the dirt place rather 866 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,960 Speaker 3: than space approach. Do you have do you have thoughts 867 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:08,319 Speaker 3: on that well. 868 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just eating this up, and I think 869 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,600 Speaker 2: part of the solution here, and this is actually something 870 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 2: that's been championed by King Charles as well. I didn't 871 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:31,480 Speaker 2: intend to spe to be a monarchist podcast, but I 872 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,480 Speaker 2: think he's very right. Like I think he's recognized if 873 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,600 Speaker 2: you look at some of his charitable causes that he 874 00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:41,400 Speaker 2: supports and some of his writings, he recognizes these these 875 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,080 Speaker 2: are interconnected problems, right, So, like the ecological crisis, the 876 00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:49,640 Speaker 2: spiritual crisis, the ugliness of modern architecture, like these are 877 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,600 Speaker 2: all interconnected problems. And one of the things that we're 878 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,080 Speaker 2: missing is a recognition of the importance of harmony and 879 00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,680 Speaker 2: the importance of limits. And one of the ways that 880 00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 2: we can recover that, I think is through you know, 881 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 2: the kids these days say we need to touch grass, 882 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 2: and I think that's true. You know, it's actually engaging 883 00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 2: in something like preparing for plants and animals and the 884 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:29,080 Speaker 2: practice of gardening, which, especially in urban environments, many of 885 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,600 Speaker 2: us have become somewhat removed from. Man. It's a reminder 886 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:37,520 Speaker 2: you're not in control. You know, you're there to tend, 887 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,800 Speaker 2: you're there to try to create conditions that are favorable 888 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,920 Speaker 2: for certain things, but you are not a control and 889 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,600 Speaker 2: you have to work with the life that is there 890 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 2: and screwed it. That's our first vocation, right. We are created, 891 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,759 Speaker 2: our first parents. What is the work that God gives them. 892 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,520 Speaker 2: He places them in the garden to tend to it, 893 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,239 Speaker 2: to care for it, to keep it. And that does 894 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 2: involve dominion, but it's dominion in the sense of you 895 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:14,840 Speaker 2: know this great old word husbandry. It's an intimate, caring 896 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:21,160 Speaker 2: kind of relationship with that kind of dominion. It's taking 897 00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:26,400 Speaker 2: care of in order to make fruitful. And I think, 898 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:32,120 Speaker 2: you know, literal gardening is a very good practice for 899 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 2: many reasons. I think that's that's one of them. Yeah, 900 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 2: so I'm eating up with what you're saying, Ashish. I 901 00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:43,520 Speaker 2: don't know that I have much more to add to that, 902 00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 2: but yeah, other than. 903 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,000 Speaker 1: I think it's sort of fascinating and we're running out 904 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:50,640 Speaker 1: of time here, so we'll probably close it out. But 905 00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, there was it was probably five years ago now, 906 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,920 Speaker 1: there was a book written called Shop Classes Soul Craft. 907 00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:57,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that you either of you had an 908 00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,720 Speaker 1: opportunity to read that. As a kid. I was not 909 00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 1: a very handy person. I've never been a real outdoorsy 910 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: kind of guy, but in high school I worked on 911 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,640 Speaker 1: a farm, and those are some of my fondest memories 912 00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,520 Speaker 1: being outside. And even if it was freezing cold and 913 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,560 Speaker 1: you're out doing stuff in the snow, or you're trying 914 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,480 Speaker 1: to you know, unthaw the water so the pigs can 915 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,920 Speaker 1: drink or whatever, you know, I think there is something 916 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 1: grounding about that. And having been married into a family 917 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:37,040 Speaker 1: who farms there, I've sort of adopted or been adopted into. 918 00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,880 Speaker 1: I suppose a deeper sense of land that looks a 919 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,800 Speaker 1: little probably less violent than like Yellowstone if you've ever 920 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,800 Speaker 1: seen that show, but is no less tenacious about keeping it. 921 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,800 Speaker 1: You know, there's a sense in which the ground that 922 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, my wife's grandpa passed down to her dad, 923 00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,640 Speaker 1: and it will eventually be passed down to our kids. 924 00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,200 Speaker 1: It's just never going to be sold, and we don't 925 00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,400 Speaker 1: view it as sacred. But the air is thinner there, 926 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,320 Speaker 1: you know, and so it's got an import that I 927 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:15,560 Speaker 1: think is really crucial. So I appreciate the conversation. I 928 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,360 Speaker 1: think that these categories that we've talked about today, and 929 00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,080 Speaker 1: there's so much more we could explore, really are crucial 930 00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,160 Speaker 1: for Christians today to understand the begin thinking through And 931 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,480 Speaker 1: it just strikes me that we've got so many of 932 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,720 Speaker 1: these pieces that are sort of floating around in the ether, 933 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,440 Speaker 1: shaping and changing the way we think about the world 934 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,800 Speaker 1: around us, that we've got to get back on track here. 935 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,360 Speaker 1: So Kevin very much appreciated your work. Like this is 936 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,080 Speaker 1: the second time we've had you on to talk about it. 937 00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,080 Speaker 1: I think there's so much more we could talk about 938 00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,480 Speaker 1: and just really appreciate you coming back on. 939 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 2: Well, that's a delight, James. You know, anytime you're an 940 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,720 Speaker 2: author of a book, to have people engage with that 941 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,840 Speaker 2: and get some value out of it as really rewarding. 942 00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,200 Speaker 2: And I've loved these questions in these conversations. So thank 943 00:59:59,240 --> 00:59:59,760 Speaker 2: you very much. 944 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Thank you. All right, everybody, Well, well, oh go. 945 01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,680 Speaker 3: Ahead, oshizh no, I was saying thank you as well. 946 01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 1: Oh okay, that's it. Very cool. Well, we'll catch everybody 947 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,640 Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I 948 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,280 Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team 949 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,680 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 950 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,919 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 951 01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,160 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 952 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,720 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.