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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: How central is the resurrection to the Christian message in practice?

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Speaker 1: You can't say it much more centrally than this. It's everything.

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Speaker 1: Paul says remove that one thing and forget all the

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Speaker 1: heavy theology we talk about. It gives meaning to the deity,

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Speaker 1: the death, the resurrection, what we call the gospel message.

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Speaker 1: all of pastoral theology, all of practice. There are hundreds

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Speaker 1: of verses on the resurrection in the New Testament, and

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Speaker 1: it is related to virtually every major doctrine and to

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Speaker 1: most of the major practices in the Christian faith. Jesus

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Speaker 1: sold him his, I mean, died for us. He gave

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Speaker 1: us everything, and he calls us to be as radically

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Speaker 1: committed to him as he was to us.

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Speaker 2: Our guest today has likely studied the historical evidence for

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Speaker 2: the resurrection of Jesus more than anyone who has ever lived.

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Speaker 2: He just finished a massive four-volume defense of the resurrection,

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Speaker 2: and the final volume on the meaning and practice of

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Speaker 2: the resurrection has just released.

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Speaker 1: Dr.

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Speaker 2: Gary Habermas, thanks for granting me one of your first

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Speaker 2: interviews on this new volume. Personally, this volume may be

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Speaker 2: my favorite because you get down to the nitty-gritty of

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Speaker 2: what it means to really live out one's resurrection faith.

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Speaker 2: So thanks for coming back and for writing a great volume.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And Sean, I may be wrong, but I think yours

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Speaker 1: is the first interview, I believe. Got some more lined up,

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Speaker 1: but I think yours is the first.

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Speaker 3: Awesome.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's jump in. And this question I've wanted to

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Speaker 2: ask you for a long time. You spent the early

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Speaker 2: years of your academic life studying the resurrection by focusing

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Speaker 2: on the evidence. After many years, I want to know

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Speaker 2: why you switched. And what you wrote in this volume was, quote,

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Speaker 2: I felt strongly convicted to studying the theological and practical

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Speaker 2: aspects of And what did you find and experience when

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Speaker 2: you switched?

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Speaker 1: Well, like you say, it's a long story. I went

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Speaker 1: through the evidence at first because I went through doubt,

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Speaker 1: serious doubt for me, serious enough that after my PhD,

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Speaker 1: I almost left the faith. And so I wasn't a

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Speaker 1: little kid. This is after my PhD. But as time

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Speaker 1: went on, I'd say it started about 1990-1990. and it

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Speaker 1: grew 92, 95. My wife passed away, and mother of

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Speaker 1: my five children, sorry, mother of my four children passed

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Speaker 1: away in 95, and the conviction kept growing that I

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Speaker 1: needed to relate the resurrection to theology and practice, which

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Speaker 1: is the title of the fourth volume, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to say why it is relevant to our living today,

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Speaker 1: because the resurrection is is the center of the gospel.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's amazing. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15,

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Speaker 1: if Jesus died but wasn't raised, his death was in vain.

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Speaker 1: So you need the resurrection to complete the gospel. And

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Speaker 1: if you've got the resurrection, now we can start talking

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Speaker 1: about how should it work in people's lives to show

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Speaker 1: them that this is the Christian and correct worldview. And

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Speaker 1: what about all the areas of pastoral practice? You know,

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Speaker 1: when people go through doubts, when people die, when their

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Speaker 1: families are sick and they wonder, where's God when you

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Speaker 1: need him? Holy Spirit, what's the Holy Spirit got to

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Speaker 1: do with the resurrection? All these things are tied together,

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Speaker 1: but the nexus is easily the deity, death, and resurrection.

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Speaker 1: And the nexus of that nexus is the resurrection, because

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Speaker 1: Paul said you don't have any of the others without that.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to see lives changed. That was part

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Speaker 1: of it. I wanted to see, okay, I know this

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Speaker 1: stuff and help me. Can I help somebody else the

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Speaker 1: same way? Can I change lives so I can tell

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Speaker 1: the Lord I did what I think is the best

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Speaker 1: possible thing to evidence it, but to spread it around

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Speaker 1: so it can be lived.

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Speaker 2: I remember, Gary, your 2003 book, The Raising Jesus and

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Speaker 2: Future Hope. For years, that was my favorite because you

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Speaker 2: had a defense of the resurrection and But it's kind

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Speaker 2: of this volume, really, but expanded so much more. You

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Speaker 2: made some connections for me in that book that have

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Speaker 2: stuck with me ever since. We're going to get into those.

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Speaker 2: But I did find it interesting you said in this

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Speaker 2: book that in New Testament studies on the gospel, the

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Speaker 2: resurrection is often mentioned in the context of the gospel

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Speaker 2: message or apologetics. Yet you say the resurrection is like

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Speaker 2: a many-faceted diamond piece. What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 2: And how central is the resurrection to the Christian message

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Speaker 2: and practice?

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Speaker 1: Well, you can't say it much more centrally than this.

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Speaker 1: It's everything. Paul says, remove that one thing and forget

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Speaker 1: all the heavy theology we talk about. Where does the

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Speaker 1: New Testament ever say anything like what Jesus did on

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Speaker 1: the cross and his shed blood means nothing, nothing if

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Speaker 1: it's not for X. And that X is the resurrection.

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Speaker 1: It gives meaning to the deity, the death, the resurrection,

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Speaker 1: what we call the gospel message. But all of pastoral theology,

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Speaker 1: all of practice, I think... Well, let me say it

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Speaker 1: this way. There are hundreds of verses on the resurrection

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Speaker 1: in the New Testament, and it is related to virtually

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Speaker 1: every major doctrine and to most of the major practices

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Speaker 1: in the Christian faith. I can't think of any other

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Speaker 1: doctrine that's no more closely tied. And when you add...

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Speaker 1: that these are true because of the resurrection. I say

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Speaker 1: many facets of diamonds because there are all these looks. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're into the book more than I am right now.

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Speaker 1: There's probably a dozen different things in that book, topics.

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Speaker 1: Those are some of the facets on the diamond, but

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Speaker 1: there are many, many more. There's all kinds of evidential

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Speaker 1: facets alone, but all kinds of practice, all kinds of ministry.

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Speaker 1: It ministers at every single level. And I think the

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Speaker 1: more I read on these things, a new book came

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Speaker 1: out last year, 500 pages on 1 Corinthians 15 alone.

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Speaker 1: It's a technical, very good book. It's the same thing.

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Speaker 1: He ties into the diamond, so to speak, and he

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Speaker 1: finds the whole New Testament tied to the resurrection.

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Speaker 2: I remember when I was doing my work on the apostles,

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Speaker 2: which now has started 15 years ago, around 2010. And

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Speaker 2: so I read through Acts instead of just getting a commentary,

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Speaker 2: having someone do me. And I was like, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to know every time the resurrection comes up as a

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Speaker 2: part of the, one of the messages. And of course

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Speaker 2: it's in Pentecost in Acts two, it's in virtually every sermon.

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Speaker 2: You see it at Mars Hill where they almost think,

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Speaker 2: you know, resurrection is another God. In some ways they're

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Speaker 2: talking about it so much. And I realized, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: if this true in Acts and the preaching, How else

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Speaker 2: does this apply to so many other doctrines? And you've

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Speaker 2: made those connections, and I love it. One of the

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Speaker 2: connections you made in this book, and you've been talking

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Speaker 2: about this for years, it was in that book I

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Speaker 2: cited earlier, is if Jesus has risen, it calls for

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Speaker 2: a radical commitment his followers should embrace. So if you'll

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Speaker 2: tell us, what is that radical commitment tied to the resurrection?

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Speaker 2: And if you'll also tell me, how do you balance

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Speaker 2: that with salvation being by grace, not by works?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very easily. The chapter title is Faith and Radical Commitment.

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Speaker 1: What's the background for this? And I explained it in

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Speaker 1: that chapter, is Jesus talking to the lawyer. And for

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Speaker 1: your listeners, they need to remember the lawyer does not

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Speaker 1: mean a guy with a JD who goes to court

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Speaker 1: and argues. A lawyer is a theologian. He's a specialist

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Speaker 1: in the law. And so this guy's in a dialogue

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Speaker 1: with Jesus, and he says, what's the most important thing

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Speaker 1: we should remember that we might have eternal life? And

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Speaker 1: Jesus said, the first one, it's the only time he

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Speaker 1: ever numbers his teachings and importance. He says, number one

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Speaker 1: is love your Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, strength,

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Speaker 1: and mind, which I take to be salvation. Everything from

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Speaker 1: you or me or someone else, everything for God. I

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Speaker 1: use the example of marriage. When we get married, basically

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Speaker 1: we're saying to each other, all of me belongs to you.

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Speaker 1: All of you belongs to me. I think that's the

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Speaker 1: radical first point. Love God with all your heart, soul, strength,

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Speaker 1: and mind. The second one is love your neighbors yourself.

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Speaker 1: And when the guy says, who's my neighbor? Wrong question

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Speaker 1: to ask Jesus. Jesus is waiting for it. He tells

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Speaker 1: the parable of the Good Samaritan and ends by saying,

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Speaker 1: go and do the likewise, which means be willing to

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Speaker 1: sacrifice your life. for people hurting, just like this guy

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Speaker 1: did for the guy that was beat up on the road.

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Speaker 1: It could have been ketchup and the criminals could have

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Speaker 1: been over there in the bushes or behind a rock,

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Speaker 1: but he did anyway. And then he took money out

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Speaker 1: of his pocket and gave it to the innkeeper and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: if this guy runs up a bill, which implies the

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Speaker 1: innkeeper knew him, I'll get you next time I come

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Speaker 1: through and I'll pay his bill. Okay, that's the outline

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Speaker 1: for this chapter. The first word faith or salvation. That's

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Speaker 1: without works. But the radical commitment is works, just like

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Speaker 1: love your neighbor as yourself is works. And that's the

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Speaker 1: second greatest command. And the only two Jesus does. So

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Speaker 1: what I'm thinking is like in marriage, all of me

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Speaker 1: for my wife and all of my wife to me,

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Speaker 1: we're saying that to Jesus when we come to know him.

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Speaker 1: And after you get married, someone asks you, now, What

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Speaker 1: are you doing? Because you're married, how has that changed

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Speaker 1: your life? How does that do this and that? And

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Speaker 1: those are good works. And Jesus said, well, it's Ephesians 2, 8, 9,

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Speaker 1: and 10. You're not saved by good works. Okay, what's

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Speaker 1: verse 10? But you're saved unconditionally. good works, not by,

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Speaker 1: but unto. And I think that's the radical commitment thing.

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Speaker 1: Jesus sold him, I mean, died for us. He gave

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Speaker 1: us everything. And he calls us to be as radically

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Speaker 1: committed to him as he was to us. So that's

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Speaker 1: the two parts. Those are the two greatest commands of

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Speaker 1: Luke chapter 10.

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Speaker 2: And of course, a part of the point is love

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Speaker 2: God with all your heart and your soul and your

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Speaker 2: mind and your strength. And the next question is, has

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Speaker 2: anybody ever done that? The answer is nope. That's impossible,

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Speaker 2: but it's by God's mercy and by grace we can

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Speaker 2: be saved nonetheless. But when we step into that relationship,

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Speaker 2: like you said, calls for radical commitment. And that's tied

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Speaker 2: to the resurrection because that's the most radical thing we

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Speaker 2: might say that Jesus did on the cross for us

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Speaker 2: I lay down my life and I pick it up.

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Speaker 2: So I love that chapter that you draw out. How

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Speaker 2: about the chapter on suffering? The question that I get

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Speaker 2: all the time, Gary, and I know this is personal

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Speaker 2: for you in different ways and you've been public about this,

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Speaker 2: but what does it mean for our suffering? And would

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Speaker 2: you share some of your own personal journey, what the

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Speaker 2: resurrection has meant for you through it?

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Speaker 1: Well, the mother of my four children, died in 1995

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Speaker 1: of stomach cancer. I've been telling people I have a

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Speaker 1: second wife now who has, and I've been saying, the

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Speaker 1: same kind of cancer. Well, I just found out yesterday

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Speaker 1: going up to University of Virginia that in 1995, they

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Speaker 1: said stomach and pancreatic were virtually the same. Now they

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Speaker 1: say there's a difference. So my wife presently has pancreatic,

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Speaker 1: but they're the two nastiest cancers anywhere. They told me

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Speaker 1: in 1995, and they've told me when Eileen first got sick,

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Speaker 1: my present wife. Both of them have told me that

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Speaker 1: it's the worst cancer you can have. I think I

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Speaker 1: heard the phrase 2% of people with pancreatic cancer survive. 2%. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's made me ask a lot of questions. And one

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Speaker 1: of them is caught up with this program, Sean. It's

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Speaker 1: like this. I'm not trying to point at me and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: look at these four great volumes. I'll let other people

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Speaker 1: do that, like you.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: I don't go out there and even talk about my

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Speaker 1: four volumes. I don't require them. You still require all

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Speaker 1: four volumes?

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Speaker 2: I use the first two. I can only assign so many,

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Speaker 2: but I would if I could.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 1: I thought you said one time you used all four. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I don't use any of my books, the big ones,

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Speaker 1: for the class. I use the Risen Jesus and Future Hope,

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Speaker 1: but the little one. And so I'm thinking to myself,

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Speaker 1: of my 50-something books, 30-ish– of them on the resurrection.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking to myself, when Eileen got diagnosed, can

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Speaker 1: I do anything else on this subject? I don't know

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Speaker 1: what it is, but it's almost like, don't hear me say,

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Speaker 1: so what's my reward is that Eileen's pancreatic cancer. I'm not,

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing that, but I'm saying this shouldn't be happening.

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Speaker 1: I just finished the book in December and she got

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Speaker 1: sick in January. I'm thinking, well, I can't figure this out.

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Speaker 1: What else am I supposed to do? And we've been

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Speaker 1: all over the place. Three meetings this last week, and

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Speaker 1: it's really, really rough. We're both really, really tired. But

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Speaker 1: if some things happen that we've just been hearing recently,

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Speaker 1: that could upset the whole apple cart. It could turn

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Speaker 1: everything around very positively. But for me, here's the key.

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Speaker 1: Let me say it this way. I tell people all

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Speaker 1: the time, I often start my messages in church, or

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Speaker 1: in a dialogue, or in a whatever, I'll say, if

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Speaker 1: there are many errors in Scripture, you know, the number

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Speaker 1: one objection to the Christianity from 1729 on, English deism,

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Speaker 1: through German liberalism all the way to the present, number

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Speaker 1: one objection, the Gospels have contradictions. Okay, fine. Let's just

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Speaker 1: grant that. Yep, there are some problems in the Gospels. Yep,

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Speaker 1: let's even say there's some errors. And then I tell people, hey,

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Speaker 1: you all know where I teach, so therefore you can

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Speaker 1: go online, you know what our statement is, you know

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Speaker 1: what my view is. That's not my view. But if

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Speaker 1: there are errors in Scripture and you think you're going

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Speaker 1: to disprove Christianity, you're barking up the wrong tree. And

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Speaker 1: that's why the minimal facts argument says I can get

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Speaker 1: there without. So it goes like this. If the Bible

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Speaker 1: is inerrant, did the resurrection happen? Well, of course not.

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Speaker 1: If the Bible's only really reliable, Craig Bomberg-wise, is the

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Speaker 1: Bible reliable? Oh, absolutely. What if the Bible is neither

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Speaker 1: inerrant nor reliable? How about you don't have a resurrection now?

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Speaker 1: And I say, oh, pardon me, but I do have

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Speaker 1: a resurrection because I don't need the entire New Testament.

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Speaker 1: So the gospel is the center of apologetics. It's the

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Speaker 1: center of faith. It's the center of everything. And so

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Speaker 1: I start wondering, am I suffering? What am I missing here?

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Speaker 1: I've just read this book, wrote this book, and I

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Speaker 1: got the chapter on suffering. There's got to be a

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Speaker 1: key here for me to say, what am I learning

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Speaker 1: through this second time around? I quote Herman's Hermits. I'm

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Speaker 1: Henry VIII, I am. Second verse, same as the first.

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Speaker 1: That's how I feel with these two cancer cases. But

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, God's going to teach me something here. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what it is. So I'm holding on to

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Speaker 1: my faith, trying to help my wife. Don't want to

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Speaker 1: be single. She's the rock star in our family. All

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Speaker 1: our kids just love her. Everybody loves her. It's a

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Speaker 1: rough situation. I know there's a key there somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: I'm searching for it. But I'm sure the resurrection is

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Speaker 1: the center for everything, and it is the center of

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Speaker 1: our suffering, as it was for Jesus.

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Speaker 2: Brother, thank you for your honesty and just being raw

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Speaker 2: and real. I'd expect nothing different from you. And yet

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Speaker 2: having faith amidst the questions and just what feels like

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Speaker 2: unbearable pain that doesn't make sense. That testimony itself is powerful.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I share all the time the section

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Speaker 2: that's in this volume because you put in a couple

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Speaker 2: other volumes where like you're having a conversation with God

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Speaker 2: in Job. And it's just, it's so powerful. People have

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Speaker 2: to get the book to see it. But when it

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Speaker 2: comes to suffering, you talk about not only Here's the

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Speaker 2: truth that we believe, but here's the truths that we

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Speaker 2: tell ourselves to trust God through this pain. And I

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Speaker 2: absolutely love that. One of the questions you talk about

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Speaker 2: is persecution. And this is especially interesting to me because, again,

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Speaker 2: my doctoral work on the apostles, I remember reading through

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Speaker 2: the New Testament very carefully and noting every time it

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Speaker 2: was told the apostles would suffer or disciples would face persecution.

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Speaker 2: And I was kind of embarrassed about how much I

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Speaker 2: miss that it's present everywhere. It's expected for followers of Jesus.

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Speaker 2: How does the resurrection inform Christians when they face not

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Speaker 2: necessarily just suffering, but persecution?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, on your first point there, Paul's the

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Speaker 1: one that says all who live godly in Christ Jesus

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Speaker 1: will suffer persecution.

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Speaker 3: All.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I try to tell people. Back to the

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Speaker 1: errors in the Gospels. I'll say, No matter what critics

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Speaker 1: scream at you about errors in the Gospels, here's where

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Speaker 1: you take your stand. Deity, death, resurrection. If that's true,

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Speaker 1: whatever you say about the New Testament doesn't stop the

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Speaker 1: Gospel message. And if Jesus rose from the dead, Christianity

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Speaker 1: is true. That's the one evidential point I'd like people

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Speaker 1: to want to hear here. If there's a resurrection, Christianity

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Speaker 1: is true. That's how central the New Testament messages. Now,

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Speaker 1: so let's say you're suffering. You're in a country, Nigeria,

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Speaker 1: and things are going on. And last time I heard

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Speaker 1: 300,000 Christians have been killed. It's a rough, rough place.

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Speaker 1: What do you tell yourself and your family? You're the

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Speaker 1: father of the family. What do you tell your wife

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Speaker 1: and your children when the people that are trying to

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Speaker 1: kill you are on their way? I think you've got

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Speaker 1: to center on the gospel message. And no matter what's

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Speaker 1: going down, no matter how much I question, why is

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Speaker 1: God letting this happen? No matter how much I say, hey,

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Speaker 1: Psalm 91, what happened to those wings around me? And

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Speaker 1: what happened to all these things around us? But it's

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Speaker 1: not going to touch us. You've got to remember, if

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Speaker 1: Jesus is raised from the dead, it didn't say, if

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Speaker 1: you can figure it all out, you're going to heaven.

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Speaker 1: It says, if Jesus was raised from the dead and

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Speaker 1: you committed yourself to him, you're going to heaven. We

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Speaker 1: can rest on the truth of Christianity. from the resurrection alone.

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Speaker 1: So when people come at me and say there's errors,

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Speaker 1: I just go, you know, I don't agree with you,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't follow. You haven't messed up the gospel

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Speaker 1: at all. You can't disprove the deity death resurrection by

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Speaker 1: saying there's errors in the gospels, which I don't think

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Speaker 1: there are anyway. So that's what I would have them

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Speaker 1: concentrate on. Maybe take a business card. And put plasticize

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Speaker 1: it or something. And I've got some around my study

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Speaker 1: here and I keep them up there. And there are

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Speaker 1: things that people who have gone through suffering like Joseph Tan,

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Speaker 1: who was the Eastern European pastor who was under huge.

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Speaker 1: to tell his Russian guards, he said, he would say

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Speaker 1: to them, hey, do you know something? If you take

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Speaker 1: my life, you're doing a favor for me because you're

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Speaker 1: sending me to heaven faster. And that's what I'm doing

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Speaker 1: all this for. So, I mean, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: feel you got to do it, go for it because

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Speaker 1: I'm heading for heaven. And he said he kept saying

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Speaker 1: that for years and he left them alone. They were

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Speaker 1: afraid to do anything to him. It's a really cute message.

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Speaker 1: But that's the centrality of the gospel message vis-a-vis suffering.

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Speaker 1: It takes the force out of suffering. And even if

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Speaker 1: I'm suffering, man, I know this going through this. And

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Speaker 1: I have my down days. And I think, what am

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Speaker 1: I going to say? I literally say to myself, like

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Speaker 1: I tell people, my students and others to say to themselves,

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Speaker 1: what does this have to do with the resurrection? How

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Speaker 1: does it change things for you? And if Jesus is

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Speaker 1: raised from the dead, I've got nothing but pain, as

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Speaker 1: bad as that is. I've got nothing but pain to

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Speaker 1: worry about. It doesn't mess with my message.

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Speaker 2: To live is Christ and to die is gain.

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Speaker 1: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: To believe that and build that in. I love that

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Speaker 2: you're saying the gospel is the best defense, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: against suffering and persecution. Because that's the deepest truth of

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Speaker 2: what Christ has done for us.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 1: And it's what we most need for Christianity to be true.

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Speaker 1: Christianity is true regardless. But in our minds, that's what

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Speaker 1: we most need to let it all hang together for us.

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Speaker 2: So apply this to doubt. Because at the beginning you

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Speaker 2: mentioned some of the doubt drove you to do the

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Speaker 2: evidential research. But then there were some other areas that

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Speaker 2: drove you into the theology and the practice. But not

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Speaker 2: just the truth. How does the resurrection work? practically help

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Speaker 2: somebody with emotional doubts?

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a good question because in the three books

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Speaker 1: I've done on doubt, to me, emotional doubt, okay, I

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Speaker 1: can give you stats. Emotional doubt's by far the most common,

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Speaker 1: 70 to 80%. About 10 to 15% factual, about 10

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Speaker 1: to 15%, the last one, which I won't even start

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Speaker 1: talking about because volitional doubt, because it's a hard one.

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Speaker 1: But Most doubters are emotional doubters. I teach emotional doubters the, well,

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Speaker 1: Albert Ellis, the famous atheist master of cognitive therapy. You

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Speaker 1: learn truths that counteract the suffering. Now, it's in the Bible.

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Speaker 1: It's in Philippians 4. It's all over in Psalms and Proverbs.

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Speaker 1: It's all over. We have to fill our mind with

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Speaker 1: truth to counteract the garbage we're telling ourselves and the

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Speaker 1: pain often goes just as quickly as you apply that.

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Speaker 1: You can get the pain to go in minutes. Now,

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Speaker 1: for the Christian, what's the counter? It's the gospel message

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Speaker 1: is the truth. What's the center of the gospel message?

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Speaker 1: The resurrection. Paul says, again, without it, the cross doesn't

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Speaker 1: even make any difference. So it's the resurrection is the key.

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Speaker 1: And if the resurrection is true, I'm going to center

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Speaker 1: on the resurrection for emotional doubts. And I'm going to

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Speaker 1: challenge Satan, whatever, the best friend or used to be

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Speaker 1: best friend who's tormenting me with the questions. I remember

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Speaker 1: mine in high school, can God make a rock so

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Speaker 1: big you can't pick it up? Which today, those of

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Speaker 1: us who study say it's the dumbest question in the world.

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Speaker 1: But when you're going through those things, you keep saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the, here's your homework assignment. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure what the resurrection has to do with this,

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Speaker 1: but Habermas says it's there somewhere. I'm going to keep

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Speaker 1: digging until I find out what the resurrection says about

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Speaker 1: this suffering. And I think every time you learn something,

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Speaker 1: that's the many faceted diamond, you turn it different ways

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Speaker 1: and the resurrection shows maybe a different color like a

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Speaker 1: diamond does. It might be red. It might be green.

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Speaker 1: It might be blue. You might glimpse of light. And

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Speaker 1: you ask yourself, What does the resurrection say about this pain?

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Speaker 1: And unpack it, because what's Paul say? Paul gives that

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Speaker 1: long list of how many times he was beaten 40

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Speaker 1: minus one, how many he was shipwrecked three times, stoned

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Speaker 1: and left for dead, and so on and so on.

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Speaker 1: And his key throughout all of us, Philippians 1, 21

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Speaker 1: and 23. And you got the Galatians verse that you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: For me to live is Christ, to die is gain.

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Speaker 1: He says he prefers to die and be with Christ,

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Speaker 1: which is better. The Greek there is sometimes translated like this.

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Speaker 1: I prefer to die and be with Christ, which is better, comma,

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Speaker 1: far better. It's an emphatic, I'm ready to go. I

429
00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:36,900
Speaker 1: not only am ready to go to heaven, I kind

430
00:24:36,940 --> 00:24:42,869
Speaker 1: of want to go now. So that assurance neutralizes that.

431
00:24:43,630 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: The worst kind of pain, suffering, physical, emotional, you know,

432
00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:51,500
Speaker 1: you get ready to get married and somebody jilts you.

433
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,139
Speaker 1: I mean, the worst kind of pain that a human

434
00:24:54,220 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: can think about, the resurrection is the antidote. It's the painkiller.

435
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:00,660
Speaker 1: How's that? Amen.

436
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,390
Speaker 3: And I remember you gave this example like 20 years ago.

437
00:25:03,410 --> 00:25:07,190
Speaker 3: You're talking about somebody wakes up Monday. They're like, I'm tired.

438
00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 3: I'm not excited to be back yet. Worked today, got

439
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 3: meetings like, oh, you know what? Tonight's Monday night football.

440
00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 3: And it's like all of a sudden it shifts your

441
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,379
Speaker 3: thinking and it gives you an extra kind of kick

442
00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:21,830
Speaker 3: in your steps, so to speak. And of course, in

443
00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:24,050
Speaker 3: the big picture of life, that's a trivial thing, but

444
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:28,850
Speaker 3: it shows how changing our thinking literally changes our mood.

445
00:25:29,530 --> 00:25:33,270
Speaker 3: That's the truth of the resurrection built into our lives

446
00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:36,790
Speaker 3: on a regular basis, transforms how we see the world

447
00:25:36,930 --> 00:25:40,510
Speaker 3: and experience. especially with emotional doubt.

448
00:25:41,609 --> 00:25:44,750
Speaker 2: I love that. Tell me about the fear of death,

449
00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:48,170
Speaker 2: if you will. There's a whole chapter on this. And

450
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:50,330
Speaker 2: I'd love you to weigh in on how specific the

451
00:25:50,369 --> 00:25:52,690
Speaker 2: resurrection helps somebody practically with that.

452
00:25:54,150 --> 00:25:54,390
Speaker 3: Yeah.

453
00:25:55,310 --> 00:25:58,290
Speaker 1: Okay, same thing. It's a little more philosophical. But in

454
00:25:58,330 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: that chapter, I mean, you can find echoes of Plato

455
00:26:01,460 --> 00:26:03,940
Speaker 1: and all kinds of things. But what I'm arguing about

456
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: there is the resurrection of the body. And When you're

457
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:15,100
Speaker 1: going through the worst kind of that species of pain, again,

458
00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:19,179
Speaker 1: I'm asking, if the resurrection is true, what does it

459
00:26:19,220 --> 00:26:22,369
Speaker 1: say about the human body? Well, I think if the

460
00:26:22,410 --> 00:26:27,170
Speaker 1: resurrection is true, we're going to rise bodily, not just

461
00:26:27,270 --> 00:26:31,270
Speaker 1: as a wispy spirit like Plato believed, but we're going

462
00:26:31,390 --> 00:26:35,780
Speaker 1: to rise as a body. Resurrection demands bodily resurrection. Bodily

463
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: resurrection tells us how we're going to enjoy life, eternal life.

464
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,419
Speaker 1: And Paul says in Philippians 1.23, to be there is

465
00:26:42,609 --> 00:26:45,730
Speaker 1: better by far than anything we're doing here. But the

466
00:26:45,770 --> 00:26:48,230
Speaker 1: key for Paul is, he says it in chapter 3

467
00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: in Philippians, it's all because of the resurrection. 3.10, Philippians 3.10,

468
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: that I may come to know him and the power

469
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,580
Speaker 1: of his resurrection. So Paul says, wants to use the

470
00:27:02,619 --> 00:27:06,070
Speaker 1: resurrection for his own suffering. And we know Paul suffered

471
00:27:06,109 --> 00:27:10,910
Speaker 1: like almost nobody in Christianity throughout time. So every time

472
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:13,270
Speaker 1: we turn around, the resurrection is there. You know, you

473
00:27:13,290 --> 00:27:17,129
Speaker 1: were mentioning Acts earlier. The resurrection is the key to

474
00:27:17,250 --> 00:27:24,290
Speaker 1: Acts 1-5, Cornelius and 10, 13 in the Petrine sermon,

475
00:27:24,290 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: 17 in the Aeropagus where he's debating the philosopher's And

476
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: the disciples, mostly Peter and then Paul, they're always pounding

477
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,580
Speaker 1: their opponents with the resurrection, the resurrection, the resurrection. How

478
00:27:36,619 --> 00:27:38,699
Speaker 1: many times do they have to say it before we

479
00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: get the point?

480
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: Our mutual friend, Clay Jones, who used to teach the

481
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: resurrection class before I was at Talbot, talks about in

482
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 2: his book on immortality that really the heart of the

483
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:56,209
Speaker 2: question that Western philosophy and beyond have wrestled with is

484
00:27:56,270 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: just the fear of death. and the unknown. And the

485
00:27:59,940 --> 00:28:04,540
Speaker 2: resurrection has a powerful response to that, that of course

486
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,310
Speaker 2: is evidenced as well, but it solves arguably the leading

487
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,510
Speaker 2: question that has driven the development of philosophy. And you

488
00:28:14,530 --> 00:28:18,830
Speaker 2: unpack that. So tell us about this question. You know,

489
00:28:19,150 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: Philippians 3.10 talks about living in the power of the resurrection.

490
00:28:23,290 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: What does that mean? And is that tied to overcoming

491
00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:29,540
Speaker 2: sin in our daily lives? Does the resurrection help that practically?

492
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: Great question. Yes, because I have been thinking about that

493
00:28:35,220 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: question the last few weeks because of my wife and

494
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:42,260
Speaker 1: the cancer. And I've read some things on it. And

495
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:47,310
Speaker 1: the author says, take the truth of Christianity and apply

496
00:28:47,380 --> 00:28:51,450
Speaker 1: it to either the sin, apply it to the pain,

497
00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And so I've said to myself, here's

498
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,980
Speaker 1: my prayer lately. Lord, let me feel the Holy Spirit

499
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,790
Speaker 1: inside me, feels a bad word for an apologist, but

500
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:05,550
Speaker 1: let me know more about the Holy Spirit. Let me

501
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:08,250
Speaker 1: be infused with the Holy Spirit. Let me know what

502
00:29:08,290 --> 00:29:10,890
Speaker 1: it does if I have the Holy Spirit, what that

503
00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:16,990
Speaker 1: power does to whip this. And so therefore, I've been

504
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,130
Speaker 1: practicing on this one thing, one thought I'm working on,

505
00:29:21,670 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: And every time the fear or whatever comes in my mind,

506
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,580
Speaker 1: I go, time out. What's the resurrection say about this?

507
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,420
Speaker 1: And I bring the resurrection. And I'm telling you, Sean,

508
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:35,250
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm special or anything. But within about

509
00:29:35,870 --> 00:29:39,270
Speaker 1: a week, that idea quit coming into my mind. It

510
00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:42,810
Speaker 1: was like... it was out. It was gone. It was like, okay,

511
00:29:42,830 --> 00:29:46,170
Speaker 1: what's the new one I'm going to struggle with? I

512
00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:50,290
Speaker 1: don't want any more struggles. But what I did was

513
00:29:50,770 --> 00:29:54,650
Speaker 1: when I thought about that fear, the first thing I

514
00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:57,660
Speaker 1: thought was, what does a resurrected Jesus say about this?

515
00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:01,310
Speaker 1: And And I said, well, I don't have to put

516
00:30:01,350 --> 00:30:03,590
Speaker 1: up with this. I don't have to live this. I

517
00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:05,830
Speaker 1: can change the subject right now because this is garbage.

518
00:30:07,190 --> 00:30:10,190
Speaker 1: By the force of Jesus Christ, this is garbage. And

519
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:13,510
Speaker 1: I'm calling on him to get rid of this and

520
00:30:13,570 --> 00:30:17,340
Speaker 1: let my mind go back to the gospel and the

521
00:30:17,380 --> 00:30:19,980
Speaker 1: resurrection in particular and stay there. So I've been doing

522
00:30:20,020 --> 00:30:23,459
Speaker 1: this very thing to get rid of fear in my

523
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: own life with what we're going through with right now.

524
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:30,570
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. How practical just that

525
00:30:30,770 --> 00:30:34,330
Speaker 2: discipline is writing it down and repeating it and owning it.

526
00:30:34,330 --> 00:30:37,890
Speaker 2: And then it just becomes second nature. That discipline is

527
00:30:37,930 --> 00:30:40,410
Speaker 2: so powerful, whether it's fear of death, whether it's sin

528
00:30:40,430 --> 00:30:43,210
Speaker 2: that crops up in our life. You know, one of

529
00:30:43,230 --> 00:30:46,710
Speaker 2: the last books I believe that Tim Keller wrote was

530
00:30:46,890 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: on forgive, forgiving other people. And of course that's tied

531
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:54,820
Speaker 2: to the resurrection that we're forgiven by God and called

532
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,530
Speaker 2: to forgive other people. And so I find it interesting

533
00:30:58,550 --> 00:31:02,410
Speaker 2: that the last chapter, which possibly could be the last

534
00:31:02,430 --> 00:31:06,610
Speaker 2: thing you write on the resurrection, maybe, is on heaven.

535
00:31:07,730 --> 00:31:10,190
Speaker 2: Why did you end this volume there?

536
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:15,740
Speaker 1: Because volume one is evidence for the resurrection. Volume two

537
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:21,540
Speaker 1: is refutations for non-biblical views. You get to volume four,

538
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: and I'm doing theology and practice here. Heaven is the

539
00:31:25,820 --> 00:31:30,980
Speaker 1: conclusion of the resurrection. Over and over again, the resurrection

540
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,790
Speaker 1: plus heaven puts everything right. Now, you know, I do

541
00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:39,050
Speaker 1: a lot of things on near-death experiences. And just like

542
00:31:39,150 --> 00:31:43,950
Speaker 1: some people, if you're a creation specialist and you go, well,

543
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:46,670
Speaker 1: I've got all these verses and all these arguments, but

544
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:50,630
Speaker 1: I also have intelligent design and fine-tuning. And they're more general,

545
00:31:50,670 --> 00:31:52,510
Speaker 1: but they're bringing in a lot of evidence. Now I'm

546
00:31:52,530 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: going to bring in my biblical stuff. I do the

547
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: same thing with near-death experiences. Near-death experiences, to me, are

548
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:05,170
Speaker 1: almost irrefutable. And if there is an afterlife... Now, the

549
00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:08,710
Speaker 1: problem with near-death experiences, you only have an afterlife. The

550
00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:10,830
Speaker 1: strength of the resurrection is that you have eternal life.

551
00:32:11,790 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: So the resurrection is better. But if I get a

552
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: hint that there's already an afterlife, that's going to be somewhere.

553
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: And then if I know the resurrection is true, that

554
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: opens the door to Jesus and the whole Christian message...

555
00:32:23,650 --> 00:32:26,330
Speaker 1: And so you have to end with heaven. Well, first

556
00:32:26,370 --> 00:32:28,790
Speaker 1: of all, the resurrection is tied to heaven. But you

557
00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:31,210
Speaker 1: have to end with heaven because if the resurrection is

558
00:32:31,230 --> 00:32:34,580
Speaker 1: the beginning of the story, heaven's the end of the story.

559
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:41,740
Speaker 1: And heaven itself is the resurrection. To understand the resurrected Jesus,

560
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: I tell my students, when the disciples reached out, okay,

561
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,130
Speaker 1: in the chosen, Thomas is a doubter. In real life,

562
00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:54,010
Speaker 1: Peter's a doubter. He denied the Lord three times. And

563
00:32:54,610 --> 00:32:57,810
Speaker 1: when Jesus appears in some of the best known songs,

564
00:32:57,870 --> 00:33:01,370
Speaker 1: like he's alive, Peter says, even if you were alive,

565
00:33:01,410 --> 00:33:03,430
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean a thing. Not for me, I'm a loser.

566
00:33:04,190 --> 00:33:06,900
Speaker 1: I'll be lucky to go there. But when Jesus appears

567
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,380
Speaker 1: in the song, popular song, what's the first thing Peter says?

568
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: He's alive, he's alive, he's alive. I'm forgiven and heaven's

569
00:33:17,860 --> 00:33:21,700
Speaker 1: gates are open wide. So there's a direct argument in

570
00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:26,150
Speaker 1: the song If resurrection, then heaven. And I think that

571
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: same argument.

572
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:27,860
Speaker 2: Is in the.

573
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,740
Speaker 1: New Testament. So I start with resurrection. I end with

574
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: heaven because there's a chain that connects the two, an

575
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,300
Speaker 1: unbreakable chain between the two. And it's because of the

576
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,380
Speaker 1: resurrection that we have eternal life. And I just think

577
00:33:43,420 --> 00:33:45,350
Speaker 1: it's the way to end the saga.

578
00:33:45,370 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

579
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:48,810
Speaker 2: So you write, and I love this, in the final chapter, quote,

580
00:33:48,910 --> 00:33:49,990
Speaker 2: How do we do that? I mean, what does it

581
00:33:50,030 --> 00:33:52,530
Speaker 2: look like to link that Jesus is God, that he died,

582
00:33:52,550 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: that he rose from the grave? That's true. How do

583
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,940
Speaker 2: we actually link that to our very existence?

584
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,940
Speaker 1: Let's go back to your earlier question. How does the

585
00:34:20,980 --> 00:34:25,810
Speaker 1: resurrection apply to emotional doubt? Emotional doubt, 70 to 80%

586
00:34:25,810 --> 00:34:28,370
Speaker 1: of doubters, and what you have to do, whether it's

587
00:34:28,489 --> 00:34:33,690
Speaker 1: Albert Ellis, non-Christian application, whether it's Paul in Philippians chapter four,

588
00:34:34,130 --> 00:34:38,150
Speaker 1: or Psalms and Proverbs, it's always stop thinking the garbage

589
00:34:38,170 --> 00:34:41,980
Speaker 1: you're thinking, which is making you nervous. and start applying

590
00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: God's promises. Now, in Psalms, and especially Proverbs, there's probably

591
00:34:45,940 --> 00:34:48,700
Speaker 1: about 10 different things you can apply. But if the

592
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,069
Speaker 1: resurrection is the best thing to apply, just like you

593
00:34:52,150 --> 00:34:57,110
Speaker 1: concentrate on what Ellis calls good Bs to counteract bad Bs,

594
00:34:58,410 --> 00:35:01,210
Speaker 1: you're doing it the wrong way, and that's why you

595
00:35:01,230 --> 00:35:03,430
Speaker 1: take pills for anxiety and depression. I want to say,

596
00:35:04,050 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: I tell my students all the time, I'm not only

597
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,310
Speaker 1: not against medicine for depression and anxiety, There's a lot

598
00:35:10,330 --> 00:35:12,029
Speaker 1: of people I know that I wish would take more

599
00:35:12,070 --> 00:35:22,660
Speaker 1: of it. But in testing, cognitive truth can beat, can

600
00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:26,180
Speaker 1: whip some of the things we take, you know, medicines.

601
00:35:27,180 --> 00:35:29,339
Speaker 1: What do you apply to it? In Philippians 4, you

602
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:32,690
Speaker 1: apply truth. All right, what do you do with the resurrection?

603
00:35:33,210 --> 00:35:35,410
Speaker 1: If you apply truth to get rid of the anxiety,

604
00:35:35,489 --> 00:35:38,870
Speaker 1: the best truth is the resurrection itself. And ask yourself,

605
00:35:39,410 --> 00:35:42,049
Speaker 1: I mean, just give me an example. I can say, well,

606
00:35:42,090 --> 00:35:44,069
Speaker 1: on my porch that day when God spoke to me,

607
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:47,450
Speaker 1: you know, make believe. God said, what kind of a

608
00:35:47,489 --> 00:35:51,410
Speaker 1: world is this? And I said, I don't know. I

609
00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:53,330
Speaker 1: guess it's a kind of a world where your son

610
00:35:53,370 --> 00:35:56,710
Speaker 1: died for a sentence. And God says, well, good start.

611
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: But then what? So, well, then there's a resurrection, which

612
00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:04,739
Speaker 1: makes everything in the cross true. And God says, I

613
00:36:04,780 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: like that. Okay, good. What are you going to do

614
00:36:07,020 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: with this? And I say, well, if I have a resurrection,

615
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,580
Speaker 1: my wife is dying. Now, this is the wife of

616
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,540
Speaker 1: my four children and she did die. I got a card.

617
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: It's the last card I put away when I put

618
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,620
Speaker 1: my cards away after she died. It said, and Sean,

619
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,020
Speaker 1: even today, it's hard for me to give this verse.

620
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to say it. It's so powerful.

621
00:36:30,020 --> 00:36:32,060
Speaker 1: But when I opened the card, here's what it said.

622
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,969
Speaker 1: What are you going to do when you walk down

623
00:36:36,030 --> 00:36:42,490
Speaker 1: the streets of heaven? hand in hand with your deceased wife.

624
00:36:44,530 --> 00:36:47,070
Speaker 1: What's it going to do walking down? And I'm thinking,

625
00:36:47,610 --> 00:36:51,370
Speaker 1: that's the resurrection. And if the resurrection lets me see

626
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:53,690
Speaker 1: her again and walk down the streets of heaven hand

627
00:36:53,730 --> 00:36:57,529
Speaker 1: in hand, I can wait. There's that old song, that

628
00:36:57,550 --> 00:37:01,930
Speaker 1: old wait. I can wait for heaven if it means

629
00:37:01,969 --> 00:37:03,569
Speaker 1: seeing her again, but I'm only going to get there

630
00:37:03,590 --> 00:37:04,910
Speaker 1: if I stay true to the Lord and I have

631
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:07,810
Speaker 1: the resurrection. To me, You can't get around it. There's

632
00:37:07,850 --> 00:37:12,170
Speaker 1: no better message to apply to suffering, to doubt than heaven.

633
00:37:12,610 --> 00:37:13,630
Speaker 1: And that's the resurrection.

634
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: You've been working on the resurrection really since high school.

635
00:37:19,219 --> 00:37:21,299
Speaker 2: I remember in our first interview, you talked about how

636
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: you were writing out arguments and responded to them, how

637
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: you did a, I think like a thesis or a

638
00:37:27,060 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: big paper on the resurrection. Like it's kind of consumed

639
00:37:30,340 --> 00:37:34,790
Speaker 2: your life. Are you finished writing on the resurrection?

640
00:37:36,270 --> 00:37:38,670
Speaker 1: In a way, I hope so. Look at this. This

641
00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:41,860
Speaker 1: just happened to be sitting here. Ben Shaw and I

642
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: just did this little thing for Rasio Christi. It's a

643
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,739
Speaker 1: little 35-ish page thing on the resurrection. So after we

644
00:37:50,780 --> 00:37:53,100
Speaker 1: both said, I told the guy, no, I'm not going

645
00:37:53,140 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: to write it. He goes, will you ask Ben for me?

646
00:37:55,340 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: Ben goes, I don't have the time. He goes, oh,

647
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: come on, you guys. And he comes back to me

648
00:38:00,660 --> 00:38:02,819
Speaker 1: a month later. Will you write it for me? I said, no.

649
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: He said, would you ask Ben a again for me

650
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,939
Speaker 1: anyway we decided to do it together I'm just saying

651
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,380
Speaker 1: it could happen just that easily and I could be

652
00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:14,910
Speaker 1: doing something again I think I've said what I need

653
00:38:14,930 --> 00:38:20,290
Speaker 1: to say Ben wants there looks like they're asking Ben

654
00:38:20,330 --> 00:38:22,910
Speaker 1: to take these four volumes and Ben's a real fast

655
00:38:23,010 --> 00:38:26,190
Speaker 1: synthesizer and typist and he said he could get it

656
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:28,430
Speaker 1: together he could do a 400 page book in two

657
00:38:28,469 --> 00:38:31,270
Speaker 1: months because he's going to take he's got the material

658
00:38:31,290 --> 00:38:32,950
Speaker 1: he's going to type it in that might be the

659
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:35,739
Speaker 1: next one But we want that because you get rid

660
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,620
Speaker 1: of the German names and the Greek and the German

661
00:38:39,930 --> 00:38:42,810
Speaker 1: and the French. You get rid of that stuff. And

662
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:45,630
Speaker 1: hopefully it's going to be applicable with that fourth volume

663
00:38:47,530 --> 00:38:49,910
Speaker 1: to people hurting. And Sean, you started this program by

664
00:38:49,969 --> 00:38:53,049
Speaker 1: saying that in a way, this fourth volume was the

665
00:38:53,110 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 1: most important one to you. I have had three other

666
00:38:58,020 --> 00:39:01,989
Speaker 1: publishers tell me that. That volume four was better than

667
00:39:02,010 --> 00:39:04,870
Speaker 1: the other three. And I said to them, literally, by

668
00:39:04,910 --> 00:39:08,790
Speaker 1: the way, two of the other three had PhDs. I

669
00:39:08,890 --> 00:39:13,230
Speaker 1: said to them, no way. Volume one's got to be

670
00:39:13,250 --> 00:39:17,270
Speaker 1: the key. No, this one is. And one of them

671
00:39:17,370 --> 00:39:19,700
Speaker 1: said to me, Sean, I won't tell his name. I'm

672
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,500
Speaker 1: not going to embarrass anybody. But he said, I was

673
00:39:22,620 --> 00:39:26,100
Speaker 1: reading the manuscript. A few people like yourself have gotten

674
00:39:26,820 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: the manuscript early. And he said, I was, so convicted

675
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,180
Speaker 1: about applying the resurrection to these truths in volume four,

676
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,300
Speaker 1: that I dropped down on my knees beside my bed

677
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:42,540
Speaker 1: and cried out to God to forgive me for not

678
00:39:42,620 --> 00:39:46,540
Speaker 1: making a better application of my own life. I thought, whoa,

679
00:39:46,989 --> 00:39:52,930
Speaker 1: If that's what Volume 4 does, that's on God. That's

680
00:39:52,989 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings those things about.

681
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,419
Speaker 1: But if Volume 4 is that powerful to people, man,

682
00:39:59,460 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure glad I didn't stop the process without doing

683
00:40:01,739 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: the last volume.

684
00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:07,070
Speaker 2: Well, praise the Lord. I did enjoy it. Sometimes the

685
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,509
Speaker 2: older I get, I still love apologetics, but the theological, biblical,

686
00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:16,180
Speaker 2: practical truths... just resonate with a heart in a way

687
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: that apologetics often doesn't. And you've made this case and

688
00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:23,180
Speaker 2: then you connect in the areas we've talked about. And

689
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,010
Speaker 2: what I love about is one of the things my

690
00:40:25,050 --> 00:40:27,390
Speaker 2: dad always told me somewhat uniquely is he wrote a

691
00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:30,549
Speaker 2: lot of books on relationships, why we had to be

692
00:40:30,590 --> 00:40:33,270
Speaker 2: here to your kid, secret of loving, but they knew

693
00:40:33,290 --> 00:40:36,850
Speaker 2: about apologetics. And he'd always say to me, truth is

694
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:40,790
Speaker 2: meant to be experienced in relationships. And many times people

695
00:40:40,810 --> 00:40:44,380
Speaker 2: just have truth. And many times people have relationships without

696
00:40:44,420 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: showing that it's true. And the biblical formula is the

697
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,540
Speaker 2: two of them together. And I'm just thrilled as an

698
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,780
Speaker 2: apologist that you have this final volume tying these knots together.

699
00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:57,950
Speaker 2: So if I heard you correctly, if an opportunity comes

700
00:40:58,010 --> 00:41:00,530
Speaker 2: and you have time, you'd consider writing on the resurrection,

701
00:41:00,550 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: but there's no like question or something that's bugging you.

702
00:41:04,210 --> 00:41:06,210
Speaker 2: It's like, I got to research that and write on

703
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:08,410
Speaker 2: a resurrection. You've said what you want to say.

704
00:41:08,430 --> 00:41:14,580
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, Ben Shaw is, by the way, he's moving

705
00:41:14,739 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: very quickly. He's got 25 publications since he's done his PhD,

706
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:21,850
Speaker 1: and he's being used all over the place. Hey, this

707
00:41:21,930 --> 00:41:24,469
Speaker 1: is funny. I picked up a book recently that a

708
00:41:24,510 --> 00:41:26,529
Speaker 1: friend of mine, which is a pretty heady book, and

709
00:41:26,570 --> 00:41:30,009
Speaker 1: I'm flipping through it, and Ben, they asked Ben to

710
00:41:30,030 --> 00:41:32,180
Speaker 1: write a recommendation, so he's in there, but I'm not.

711
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:33,940
Speaker 1: They asked Ben to do it. I'm thinking.

712
00:41:34,510 --> 00:41:35,670
Speaker 2: I love it.

713
00:41:35,790 --> 00:41:38,450
Speaker 1: This is good. This is the end result. When you

714
00:41:38,489 --> 00:41:41,549
Speaker 1: set your students up like Mike Lacona and Ben Shaw,

715
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of those guys and they're carrying resurrection on.

716
00:41:46,460 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: So that's volume four too. Volume four, you can go

717
00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 1: from resurrection to discipleship. That's the radical chapter of faith

718
00:41:59,380 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: and radical commitment in the book. So if it's catching on,

719
00:42:04,190 --> 00:42:09,810
Speaker 1: And Mike and Ben, they're really good friends now, and

720
00:42:09,890 --> 00:42:14,450
Speaker 1: they're doing a book together, Ben and Mike. That's great. Hey, guys,

721
00:42:14,489 --> 00:42:17,540
Speaker 1: what about me? No, no, no, they're doing it. I

722
00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:19,060
Speaker 1: think it's just wonderful.

723
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,259
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not formally one of your students, but I

724
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,420
Speaker 2: am functionally one of your students, that your influence on

725
00:42:25,460 --> 00:42:28,130
Speaker 2: me is profound and deep and lasting. I remember the

726
00:42:28,170 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: first time you took my call probably 25 years ago.

727
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you knew I was a

728
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: McDowell or not. I had no idea, but you talked

729
00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 2: to me, you explained things to me, took time with

730
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 2: me and your writings have just been, been really powerful.

731
00:42:39,820 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: So is there, is there, you know, you're, how old

732
00:42:42,940 --> 00:42:44,859
Speaker 2: are you, Gary? 70 some years old?

733
00:42:44,860 --> 00:42:46,090
Speaker 3: 76.

734
00:42:46,090 --> 00:42:47,330
Speaker 1: 76.

735
00:42:47,330 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: Is there a.

736
00:42:49,530 --> 00:42:51,070
Speaker 1: I'm catching up to your dad.

737
00:42:51,950 --> 00:42:53,910
Speaker 2: He's got you by a decade, actually.

738
00:42:53,930 --> 00:42:54,970
Speaker 3: He does.

739
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:58,469
Speaker 2: He's just turned 87. But my dad, I guess, I

740
00:42:58,510 --> 00:43:00,590
Speaker 2: guess what I'm getting at is this has been your life.

741
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:04,180
Speaker 2: And to say that you're probably done, is there relief?

742
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: Is there sadness? Is it like, Sean, I've got other

743
00:43:06,980 --> 00:43:08,380
Speaker 2: things going in my life. I don't have time to

744
00:43:08,460 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: feel that. What does it feel like to commit your

745
00:43:10,260 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 2: life to writing something and you get four volumes in

746
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 2: a sense or like I'm done?

747
00:43:14,940 --> 00:43:22,050
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's none of the above. I'm not sad at all.

748
00:43:22,530 --> 00:43:25,370
Speaker 1: I feel I've done my job. If I pick something

749
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:29,710
Speaker 1: up like this little thing or Ben does a, 300-page

750
00:43:29,770 --> 00:43:32,830
Speaker 1: synopsis of the first four volumes. So people, hey, I

751
00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:35,910
Speaker 1: want that because it's going to be practical. If you're

752
00:43:35,930 --> 00:43:40,510
Speaker 1: a pastor or a layperson, who wants to read things

753
00:43:40,590 --> 00:43:46,379
Speaker 1: like Schleiermacher, Albert Schweitzer? Who wants to read that stuff?

754
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 1: You want stuff for your sermons and everything else. So

755
00:43:49,460 --> 00:43:51,420
Speaker 1: leave that stuff out. You leave a lot of book.

756
00:43:51,620 --> 00:43:55,500
Speaker 1: And what am I getting? A book of application. And

757
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,509
Speaker 1: right now, you started a program with it. Right now,

758
00:43:58,570 --> 00:44:01,180
Speaker 1: ever since 1990, I've been growing more and more and

759
00:44:01,219 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: more into it. Right now, my heart is application of

760
00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: this stuff. Who can I take and influence people?

761
00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:09,180
Speaker 3: You know what?

762
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: I'll give you, I don't know how many people I've

763
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: told this to. If I do one more book and

764
00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:15,860
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I need to do any more books,

765
00:44:16,219 --> 00:44:20,779
Speaker 1: I've got too many. I'm thinking about a book on

766
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,610
Speaker 1: simple living, which would be that radical commitment part of

767
00:44:25,650 --> 00:44:27,970
Speaker 1: the last half of that chapter. What does it mean

768
00:44:27,989 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: to give everything to Jesus? Because I think, you know,

769
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: I can be blamed with a lot of things for

770
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 1: saying this, but I think probably the American Christian's overall

771
00:44:38,820 --> 00:44:43,220
Speaker 1: sin is materialism. And I think, I read an article

772
00:44:43,340 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: years ago, it had a profound effect on me, and

773
00:44:45,820 --> 00:44:48,650
Speaker 1: this was in the early 70s. And the guy said,

774
00:44:49,130 --> 00:44:54,150
Speaker 1: when I study New Testament living and giving, he said,

775
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:56,569
Speaker 1: I can only think of two ways to to live

776
00:44:56,590 --> 00:44:59,970
Speaker 1: the Christian life. He said they both have simple living

777
00:45:00,390 --> 00:45:03,850
Speaker 1: at their core, but here's the difference. One says, I

778
00:45:04,530 --> 00:45:07,569
Speaker 1: will work as many hours as I can, make as

779
00:45:07,690 --> 00:45:10,779
Speaker 1: much as I can, live on as little as I can,

780
00:45:11,140 --> 00:45:13,910
Speaker 1: and give the rest of the money to ministry. The

781
00:45:13,969 --> 00:45:17,540
Speaker 1: other one says, how many hours do I have to

782
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: work to be able to live? And I'll work only

783
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:24,290
Speaker 1: those number of hours. And the rest of my hours,

784
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:29,529
Speaker 1: I will contribute to Christian ministry. And those two ideas

785
00:45:30,030 --> 00:45:34,050
Speaker 1: have had a profound effect on my life. And I'm thinking, okay,

786
00:45:34,090 --> 00:45:36,450
Speaker 1: so what am I doing? I think I'd rather quit

787
00:45:36,489 --> 00:45:40,580
Speaker 1: worrying about other people and give to this or get

788
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,190
Speaker 1: involved in that or do this. You know, it's 76.

789
00:45:44,180 --> 00:45:47,339
Speaker 1: Sometimes the knees and everything don't work the same way.

790
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: But I would like to be hands and feet for

791
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,750
Speaker 1: people who are hurting. I think that's the application of

792
00:45:54,770 --> 00:45:59,069
Speaker 1: the resurrection. By the way, Galatians chapter six does that.

793
00:45:59,590 --> 00:46:02,490
Speaker 1: And it says, if you're pursuing this, it's eternal life.

794
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:08,540
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Christians have eternal life sewed up,

795
00:46:09,020 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: but I want to know what I'm doing with everything.

796
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: And where am I going to put this? Or where

797
00:46:14,420 --> 00:46:15,540
Speaker 1: am I going to put that? And who am I

798
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: going to do this for? So I'm thinking about something

799
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,009
Speaker 1: on simple living. I'm really, really interested in that subject,

800
00:46:21,050 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: how we live. Hey, here's one for you. I found

801
00:46:24,460 --> 00:46:27,049
Speaker 1: that this is not hearsay. Someone gave it to me

802
00:46:27,110 --> 00:46:31,870
Speaker 1: from his diary. But John Wesley said that if I die,

803
00:46:31,890 --> 00:46:35,190
Speaker 1: and see, they said that when he took his offerings,

804
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:38,070
Speaker 1: when they gave him free will offerings, he immediately passed

805
00:46:38,090 --> 00:46:40,660
Speaker 1: them out to the widows and the orphans who they

806
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,660
Speaker 1: had come down and sit in the front row. And

807
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:44,900
Speaker 1: he passed all his money out. And he said, if

808
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:50,180
Speaker 1: I die and you find 20 pounds in my pocket,

809
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: I've renounced the Lord.

810
00:46:52,260 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness.

811
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:59,180
Speaker 1: John Wesley. That's amazing. I love that comment for Simple Living.

812
00:46:59,540 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: He gave it all away immediately.

813
00:47:01,219 --> 00:47:06,140
Speaker 2: If you want to have Gary write that book, comment,

814
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 2: and I'll have my team gather these comments and we

815
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,910
Speaker 2: will send them over to you if they're positive, encouraging. Seriously,

816
00:47:12,469 --> 00:47:14,830
Speaker 2: if that's something that somebody who spent his life on

817
00:47:14,850 --> 00:47:19,989
Speaker 2: the resurrection and scholarship, thousands of pages you've published. And

818
00:47:20,030 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 2: want to hear this account. I'm intrigued by that. I

819
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,660
Speaker 2: would love it for what it's worth. But folks comment.

820
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,819
Speaker 2: Let us know if that's something you want to hear

821
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,890
Speaker 2: from Gary. One or two more and I'll wrap it up.

822
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,919
Speaker 2: You might have answered this. And I hope it's okay

823
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: if I ask this. But before while we were chatting.

824
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,190
Speaker 2: You made a statement like. You know Sean at this

825
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:39,469
Speaker 2: stage in my life. I have a whole new set

826
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:42,730
Speaker 2: of questions. Tied to the resurrection. And in your life.

827
00:47:44,090 --> 00:47:46,570
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? If you'd be okay sharing.

828
00:47:47,830 --> 00:47:52,370
Speaker 1: Yeah well right now. with the situation with, with Eileen,

829
00:47:52,450 --> 00:47:57,190
Speaker 1: my present wife, most of the questions have to do

830
00:47:57,250 --> 00:48:02,489
Speaker 1: with suffering. And so when a doctor friend of mine, MD, PhD,

831
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:07,529
Speaker 1: he's a neurologist and he and I, by the way,

832
00:48:07,570 --> 00:48:12,150
Speaker 1: did an article with Ben on what do, what do

833
00:48:12,170 --> 00:48:16,049
Speaker 1: medical doctors say about crucifixion? And it was published in

834
00:48:16,070 --> 00:48:20,140
Speaker 1: the Baylor medical journal. Well, This guy's a good scholar.

835
00:48:20,380 --> 00:48:24,390
Speaker 1: And he said, when I'm going around all the hospitals,

836
00:48:24,469 --> 00:48:27,490
Speaker 1: I'm in like children's hospitals, and I'm seeing how little

837
00:48:27,590 --> 00:48:31,629
Speaker 1: children are suffering. He said, I've got to think about

838
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:33,890
Speaker 1: what's this do to my view of God. And I'm thinking, oh,

839
00:48:33,930 --> 00:48:39,250
Speaker 1: I got to have a talk with this guy. He wonders,

840
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:43,770
Speaker 1: how do you put like, say, Psalm 22, Psalm 91,

841
00:48:43,770 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: how do you put those things together with the suffering

842
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:51,190
Speaker 1: we see where there's tidal waves and war and the

843
00:48:51,330 --> 00:48:58,469
Speaker 1: California fires and Ukraine and everything else, it's hard to

844
00:48:58,550 --> 00:49:02,890
Speaker 1: say the God who sees all and what's the purpose

845
00:49:02,950 --> 00:49:06,509
Speaker 1: of the suffering. But I do say this, Sean, I

846
00:49:06,550 --> 00:49:08,850
Speaker 1: still say this to my students, it sounds so simple,

847
00:49:08,930 --> 00:49:11,549
Speaker 1: but someone tell me why it's wrong. I'll say, I

848
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: don't know why it's happening. And I don't know why

849
00:49:15,060 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: God lets it happen. But I'm not God, and I

850
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,710
Speaker 1: don't have to answer this question. But if I believe

851
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:23,219
Speaker 1: in the resurrection, guess what? Someday I'm going to take

852
00:49:23,260 --> 00:49:25,540
Speaker 1: a post-grad course with Paul, or I'm going to take

853
00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: a post-grad course with somebody else, and I'm going to

854
00:49:28,020 --> 00:49:29,819
Speaker 1: find out what is out there. And you know what?

855
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: I'll tell people it's going to take God about one

856
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: sentence to tell me, do you know why that happened

857
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,270
Speaker 1: in Ukraine? Let me tell you, it's this. And after

858
00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:45,190
Speaker 1: one sentence, I think, wow, I'm sure glad I didn't

859
00:49:45,210 --> 00:49:47,870
Speaker 1: walk away from Christianity for that reason, when it's that

860
00:49:47,989 --> 00:49:51,029
Speaker 1: easy to answer it. I just think there's ways to

861
00:49:51,070 --> 00:49:54,230
Speaker 1: make these applications. So for me, the big issue right

862
00:49:54,270 --> 00:49:57,540
Speaker 1: now is suffering. And what's the resurrection say? And right

863
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,219
Speaker 1: now my answer is, I don't know why much of

864
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: suffering occurs, but I do know the resurrection. And if

865
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: the resurrection happened, Christianity is true. Heaven happens, and I've

866
00:50:09,820 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: got eternity to explore this question.

867
00:50:13,460 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 3: Amen.

868
00:50:14,140 --> 00:50:18,220
Speaker 2: That's great. I want to make sure people hear you saying,

869
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,140
Speaker 2: I believe this is true. I have the evidence for it.

870
00:50:21,140 --> 00:50:21,700
Speaker 2: I don't have any.

871
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 3: Questions about that. And I'm confident God has a reason.

872
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,739
Speaker 2: I don't know it. And I can live with these

873
00:50:27,820 --> 00:50:31,469
Speaker 2: questions and express these questions. This is a part of

874
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:31,890
Speaker 2: my life.

875
00:50:32,070 --> 00:50:35,590
Speaker 3: At 76 years old, a lot of people think if

876
00:50:35,650 --> 00:50:38,049
Speaker 3: I read one more of Gary's books, I'll figure I

877
00:50:38,070 --> 00:50:39,270
Speaker 3: won't have questions anymore.

878
00:50:40,050 --> 00:50:42,219
Speaker 2: And you're saying to that person what?

879
00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:47,620
Speaker 1: You're always going to have questions. The question is, how

880
00:50:47,660 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: do you put your questions in order? Where does the

881
00:50:50,580 --> 00:50:53,180
Speaker 1: line of questions start? And where does the line of

882
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: questions end? And to me, it ends with the truth

883
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: of the resurrection and the truth of heaven. If there's

884
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:04,390
Speaker 1: eternal life, here's the key. There are answers. That's not

885
00:51:04,450 --> 00:51:07,290
Speaker 1: the same as me having to know the answer. It's

886
00:51:07,330 --> 00:51:10,930
Speaker 1: a philosophical problem. There may be answers, but that doesn't

887
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:14,830
Speaker 1: mean Gary Habermas knows the answers. But I can trust God,

888
00:51:15,210 --> 00:51:20,529
Speaker 1: who's omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent. I can trust God. that

889
00:51:20,570 --> 00:51:22,350
Speaker 1: he has the answer. Well, isn't that just a little

890
00:51:22,370 --> 00:51:26,129
Speaker 1: bit too gullible? Not when the resurrection's true. When there's

891
00:51:26,210 --> 00:51:29,630
Speaker 1: no resurrection, okay, great, it's gullible. But if he was

892
00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:33,710
Speaker 1: raised from the dead, please refute my resurrection argument or

893
00:51:33,830 --> 00:51:36,049
Speaker 1: tell me why I shouldn't trust the God who raised

894
00:51:36,110 --> 00:51:40,739
Speaker 1: his son from the dead. To me, the resurrection is

895
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: intimately connected with all these things. And I'll say, maybe

896
00:51:46,219 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: you're pushing me to this point. We can live with questions.

897
00:51:50,510 --> 00:51:55,140
Speaker 1: Nobody should lie to themselves and say, unless my life

898
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,779
Speaker 1: looks like the smooth cement on the front of my

899
00:51:57,820 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: house with nobody putting their initials in it, unless I

900
00:52:01,340 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 1: get everything worked out, I can't be a good Christian.

901
00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: That's baloney. Paul lived with questions. Paul tells you that.

902
00:52:08,020 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: You know, in 2 Corinthians, he says, I live with

903
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,300
Speaker 1: these questions and they tear me up, but I don't despair.

904
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,339
Speaker 1: I don't lose it. It's just before he, and you know,

905
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:19,819
Speaker 1: as soon as he says that, what did he say?

906
00:52:20,469 --> 00:52:24,610
Speaker 1: to the Corinthians, he says, I'm suffering from these questions,

907
00:52:25,130 --> 00:52:29,850
Speaker 1: but you and I, it's communal resurrection. He says, you

908
00:52:29,969 --> 00:52:34,150
Speaker 1: and I will be raised together and sit with Christ

909
00:52:34,210 --> 00:52:37,509
Speaker 1: in heaven. And what follows that passage? The last three

910
00:52:37,590 --> 00:52:42,589
Speaker 1: verses of 2 Corinthians 4, which is C.S. Lewis's The

911
00:52:42,630 --> 00:52:46,310
Speaker 1: Weight of Glory, his famous sermon. Paul goes right to

912
00:52:46,350 --> 00:52:49,230
Speaker 1: that application for heaven. So Paul says, yeah, I'm suffering.

913
00:52:49,890 --> 00:52:52,469
Speaker 1: I'm suffering. He obviously doesn't have it worked out. But

914
00:52:52,489 --> 00:52:54,350
Speaker 1: he says, Corinthians, you and I are going to be

915
00:52:54,410 --> 00:52:57,330
Speaker 1: raised together and sit in heaven. And here comes those.

916
00:52:58,390 --> 00:53:02,450
Speaker 1: The last three verses of 2 Corinthians 4 is, I

917
00:53:02,469 --> 00:53:05,810
Speaker 1: don't know. They may be the most beautiful verses in

918
00:53:05,830 --> 00:53:07,350
Speaker 1: the Bible. I love them.

919
00:53:08,330 --> 00:53:11,110
Speaker 2: Gary, I'm grateful for you, brother. Thanks for your honesty

920
00:53:11,170 --> 00:53:15,250
Speaker 2: and vulnerability on this podcast. And just my heart goes

921
00:53:15,370 --> 00:53:18,780
Speaker 2: out to you with. your wife just playing God's healing

922
00:53:18,890 --> 00:53:24,620
Speaker 2: and peace and blessing and guidance to the doctors and beyond,

923
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 2: and just that you could get some rest. I know

924
00:53:26,620 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: you said you're tired, and amidst all that, that you'd

925
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,460
Speaker 2: come on and share about your life and be open,

926
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,270
Speaker 2: not just with me, but with our viewers. It means

927
00:53:35,330 --> 00:53:39,110
Speaker 2: a ton. I do love Volume 4 when you connect

928
00:53:39,130 --> 00:53:42,850
Speaker 2: it to theology and practice, especially for apologists. I think

929
00:53:42,890 --> 00:53:45,730
Speaker 2: for anybody to step outside of his true defendant and

930
00:53:46,330 --> 00:53:50,650
Speaker 2: let's live it and let's connect it to Christian practice

931
00:53:51,469 --> 00:53:54,469
Speaker 2: is really powerful. And I think a part of our

932
00:53:54,510 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: greatest testimony, I'm convinced we can give an evidence for resurrection,

933
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:00,100
Speaker 2: but if our lives don't reflect it and we're not

934
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,660
Speaker 2: living in that power, it's probably going to fall on

935
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:04,980
Speaker 2: deaf ears. And I think that's where you're challenging people

936
00:54:05,020 --> 00:54:09,009
Speaker 2: to love you, brother. Thanks so much for coming on

937
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,649
Speaker 2: and we'll, we'll catch up soon.

938
00:54:11,690 --> 00:54:13,569
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sean. I love the interview. I've been looking

939
00:54:13,890 --> 00:54:16,180
Speaker 1: forward to it for a long time. Thanks for what

940
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,660
Speaker 1: you do and thanks for your questions. You betcha.

941
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,020
Speaker 3: Thank you. Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please

942
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,870
Speaker 3: hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of

943
00:54:24,910 --> 00:54:27,330
Speaker 3: you tuning in haven't done this yet and it makes

944
00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:30,129
Speaker 3: a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more

945
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:34,299
Speaker 3: people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review.

946
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,310
Speaker 3: Every review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

947
00:54:38,469 --> 00:54:42,290
Speaker 3: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

948
00:54:42,370 --> 00:54:46,670
Speaker 3: where we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation,

949
00:54:46,730 --> 00:54:49,310
Speaker 3: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would

950
00:54:49,330 --> 00:54:52,290
Speaker 3: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

951
00:54:52,330 --> 00:54:55,129
Speaker 3: defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you

952
00:54:55,250 --> 00:54:56,750
Speaker 3: when the next episode drops.