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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Everyone you call them make

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Speaker 1: a difference. In mental health. Columbia International University offers graduate

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Speaker 1: counseling degrees that combine professional excellence with Biblical truth from associates.

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Speaker 1: Through doctoral program, CiU prepares you to bring healing and

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Speaker 1: wholeness to others through a biblically based framework of compassion

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Speaker 1: and care. Whether it's their carep accredited Masters in Clinical

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Speaker 1: Counseling or their PhD in counsel or Education and supervision.

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Speaker 1: You'll learn from experienced faculty who integrate faith with real

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Speaker 1: world application to cultivate a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach,

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Speaker 1: and train. Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career,

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Speaker 1: CiU's counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally

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Speaker 1: and spiritually. You can visit CiU dot edu to learn

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Speaker 1: more about making a difference in mental health through Christ

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Speaker 1: centered education. That's CiU dot edu. Hey, everybody, welcome to

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Speaker 1: this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm joined today by one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite and recurring guests, Ben Matthew. He is

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Speaker 1: a professor at Columbia International University in their counseling and

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Speaker 1: I think it's counselor education. He's a professor of counselor

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Speaker 1: education at Columbia International University. And so today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about a subject that Ben's been speaking on

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Speaker 1: and thinking about for a while now, multiculturalism in the church.

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Speaker 1: And so welcome Ben back to the program. I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to have this conversation with you.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jay's I always love these conversations in the ways

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Speaker 3: in we've gone.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate being back with you as.

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Speaker 4: The randomness is always good.

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, so I was looking through your CV and I

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Speaker 1: read a couple of pieces on immigration and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: how we treat the other And then I noticed you've

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Speaker 1: been doing some talks on multiculturalism, biblical theology, those kind

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Speaker 1: of things. So maybe just give me a give to

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Speaker 1: everybody a little bit of a sense of why you

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Speaker 1: got interested in these issues in the first place. Ye

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Speaker 1: and uh, and maybe what your general approach to them is.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: For those of you that are watching, you can see

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Speaker 3: that I have a lovely tan here. It's kind of

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Speaker 3: year because my family is originally from India. And so

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Speaker 3: for those of you that are listening and don't see me,

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Speaker 3: that that's uh, that's what you'd be looking at if

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Speaker 3: you saw me, and that that has always informed part

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Speaker 3: of my just understanding of life identity. You know, this

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Speaker 3: family that migrated from India lived in Canada, and then

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Speaker 3: I moved here to the US. You know, there's been

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Speaker 3: a lot of movement of culture and identity and content

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Speaker 3: for me personally. One of the stories I often think

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Speaker 3: about is my mom remained an Indian citizen for a

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Speaker 3: number of years while we were living in Canady. She

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Speaker 3: just didn't want to give up her Indian citizenship, and

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Speaker 3: so she was known as a resident alien. I think

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Speaker 3: is the term they use up in Canada. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if they use that still, but that was the term.

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Speaker 3: I remember like the first time hearing a customs immigration

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Speaker 3: officer asked my mom like, where is she an alien from?

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, what, She's an alien? Like this was

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Speaker 3: like me coming off the heels of et back in

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Speaker 3: the eighties, right, So I'm like going home kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: And to be honest, you know, after learning what that meant,

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Speaker 3: you know, being from a thereland land, it made sense

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Speaker 3: then for why we then experienced a lot of the

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Speaker 3: struggles we did growing up. To give you a little context,

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Speaker 3: our family grew up in Canada near Toronto, but in

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Speaker 3: a very very to be honest, with white community and

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Speaker 3: first moved there as we were kind of moving up

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Speaker 3: the ladders of life as it were, that community did

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Speaker 3: not embrace us at all. In fact, our house was

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Speaker 3: regularly vandalized, firebombed kind of And I'm like, are six

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Speaker 3: years old, right, So we moved to this community and

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Speaker 3: like I remember this one time my grandfather, who was

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Speaker 3: visiting from India, he took out, he would take a

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Speaker 3: walk every morning in the neighborhood and he stopped in

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Speaker 3: front of our garage door and he's just looking at it,

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Speaker 3: and I see him from the living room window. So

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Speaker 3: I walk out and I look in the garage door

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Speaker 3: and spray painted like all over it our words like

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Speaker 3: get out of here, go back to where you're from,

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Speaker 3: get out of here, n word like written on there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so I remember as a kid, you know, experiencing

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Speaker 3: all these things, seeing all these things, and to me,

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Speaker 3: the answer, obviously then is the color of my skin,

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Speaker 3: Like this is what's wrong. So I would have these

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Speaker 3: prayers as I alwayd walk to school, Lord, please turn

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Speaker 3: me white, like this would just make everything so much better,

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Speaker 3: make my life so much easier. And then as I

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Speaker 3: would walk home, I'd be like, but God, turn me

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Speaker 3: back Indian, because if I show up white at home,

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Speaker 3: my mom's gonna kill like this.

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Speaker 2: Is this will not be able to see. Well. Oh

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Speaker 2: that that was.

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Speaker 3: That was very formative, right, like clear understanding of how

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Speaker 3: race impacts communities, cultures, perspectives, unfortunately in some really really

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Speaker 3: ugly ways. But it was through really the faith of

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Speaker 3: my parents, how they engaged their faith through racial animosity.

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Speaker 3: And I won't get into all the Jesus, but my

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Speaker 3: dad started just volunteering in the soccer club in the community.

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Speaker 3: He would hold a flag and call off sides and

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Speaker 3: then he worked his way up to becoming like the

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Speaker 3: head of the program. My mom started realizing these Canadians

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Speaker 3: do these weird things called barbecues, which she had never

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Speaker 3: heard of before, and so he ended up buying a

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Speaker 3: barbecue and just started inviting people over for meals, which

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Speaker 3: of course, you know, no one was available. We're busy,

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Speaker 3: you know, can't do it. But they were just persistent

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Speaker 3: and they just loved loved the community, They loved people,

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Speaker 3: and I just saw their faith and it gave me.

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Speaker 3: Twenty five years later, when they decided to move from

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Speaker 3: that neighbor just to downside, that neighborhood, threw them a party,

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Speaker 3: just shot in showing how much appreciation they had for them.

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Speaker 3: So when you asked the good question like what got

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Speaker 3: me into this, to be honest, it was my family's

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Speaker 3: faith in the midst of racial animosity that did. I

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Speaker 3: didn't really understand how my faith necessarily spoke to that,

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Speaker 3: but I saw it. So when I grew out and

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Speaker 3: developed my own understanding of things, both theologically as well

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Speaker 3: as clinically, oh man, I want to get more into this.

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Speaker 3: And it's just continued to expand. But it really started

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Speaker 3: in those real expressions of faith by my parents.

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Speaker 1: How do you think, you know, from a clinician's perspective,

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Speaker 1: when we talked about some identity issues before, and how

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Speaker 1: you know how one views oneself? How do you think

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Speaker 1: about or how do you counsel people to think about

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Speaker 1: their ethnicity racial background in relation to their overarching identity?

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Speaker 1: And you know, maybe that's the general question, and then

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Speaker 1: sort of digging down and maybe the second question would

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Speaker 1: be how do you do that with a Christian right?

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Speaker 1: It's a you know, how do you cultivate a Christian

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Speaker 1: first identity without losing the appropriate distinctives that come along

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Speaker 1: with being part of an ethnic group and a culture.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, first step like, how do people usually think

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Speaker 1: about that ethnic identity? And how would you love to

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Speaker 1: see them think about that ethnic identity as a counselor.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that we always wanted to do

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Speaker 3: in a clinical context is first understand their narrative. How

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Speaker 3: do they understand their ethnic realities as part of their

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Speaker 3: own narrative? And so that's not to say it's either

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Speaker 3: right or wrong, it's just I need to build some

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Speaker 3: therapeutic rapport right to be able to understand which do

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Speaker 3: you think is if I can use the word somewhat

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Speaker 3: incarnational in itself, like, how do we step into those

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Speaker 3: realities before we speak to those realities? That to me

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Speaker 3: then gives me some understanding of then maybe to some

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Speaker 3: degree helping me understand how either important it is to

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Speaker 3: them or how marginalized it is to them. Have they

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Speaker 3: over emphasized it? Have they not emphasized it enough? I

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Speaker 3: know if you talked to Ben Matthew when he was

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Speaker 3: like five or six, I wanted to get rid of

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Speaker 3: my ethnic identity here right, It was shameful, it was

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Speaker 3: causing problems.

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Speaker 2: If he went to counseling.

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Speaker 3: But I would hope of clinician would be able to

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Speaker 3: identify that and okay, how do we actually have a

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Speaker 3: healthier understanding of your ethnicity as part of who you

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Speaker 3: are rather than trying to put it away in light

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Speaker 3: of all these contexts. But I've worked with others on

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Speaker 3: the other side where in some ways that has become

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Speaker 3: an overwriting part of their identity. And what I mean

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Speaker 3: by that is that because of the desire to kind

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Speaker 3: of maybe work out of hardship or animosity or whatever

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Speaker 3: it is, they made such a high priority of their

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Speaker 3: ethnicity as kind of the dominant part of their identity,

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Speaker 3: and so when and if others in culture or community

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Speaker 3: or family don't recognize that, they feel offended and they

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Speaker 3: transfer a lot of animosity against other people as well.

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Speaker 3: So I use these terms particularly that we've often heard

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Speaker 3: color blindness and color essentialism. So color blindness, if many

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Speaker 3: of your listeners probably know that term, the idea that well,

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Speaker 3: we don't see color, we don't see rays, we just

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Speaker 3: see everyone kind of as they are. And the good

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Speaker 3: of that, and I actually think there is some good

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Speaker 3: is that we don't want to prioritize ethnicity over and

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Speaker 3: above just humanity.

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Speaker 4: Right, yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The concern of.

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Speaker 3: That is that you're removing an aspect of the individual

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Speaker 3: that is part of the individual, and sometimes individual clients

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Speaker 3: of mine sometimes have to rest with it. But I

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Speaker 3: think we can go to the other extreme too, of

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Speaker 3: what I refer to as color essentialism, where we make

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Speaker 3: race and ethnicity actually too much of a priority in

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Speaker 3: terms of identity, and when others don't give you reciprocate

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Speaker 3: the same level of importance, we then get offended and

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Speaker 3: we kind of go out of turn against those other people.

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Speaker 3: When I'm working with clients, I'm having to kind of

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Speaker 3: help manage where they are on that spectrum, And yeah,

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Speaker 3: how is this actually helping or hindering your own flourishing,

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Speaker 3: which then for Christians takes on like another whole level.

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Speaker 3: And I'm speaking to someone who knows this a lot

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Speaker 3: better than I do. But I love pulling out the

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Speaker 3: biblical theology. I think of what God's vision is for

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Speaker 3: the nations, you know, from Genesis eleven, Tower of Battle

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Speaker 3: to acts to God through language, either dividing or uniting,

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Speaker 3: and so what that looks like in the community of Christ.

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Speaker 3: That again, it's not supposed to be the main part

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Speaker 3: of your identity. Color essentialism. And so when Paul talks

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Speaker 3: about neither Jude nor Greek male or female, I think

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Speaker 3: we need to prioritize our identity in Christ. But neither

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Speaker 3: is it ignored. Right read Revelation seven, like gathered around

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Speaker 3: the throne, or people from every tribe tongue in nation. Right,

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Speaker 3: as I say with my wife who is of Scandinavian

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Speaker 3: background and I have Indian background, when we get to heaven,

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Speaker 3: God will not take out his remote control and like

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Speaker 3: color contrasts us to neutral, right, He's not gonna bage

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Speaker 3: us all out because the diversity actually adds to the

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Speaker 3: glory of of our risen Lord. And there's something in

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Speaker 3: there that we struggle here because this topic often creates

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Speaker 3: a lot more more heat than light. But if we

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Speaker 3: can frame it from a biblical construct, I actually think

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Speaker 3: that there's a lot there that we can help our

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Speaker 3: Christian colleagues and communities deal with.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Ephesians has always been interesting to me on

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Speaker 1: this right. I mean probably a circular letter. You know,

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Speaker 1: you've got the textual variant of in ephesis sort of

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Speaker 1: in the first line where that may or may not

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Speaker 1: it looks like it's a later edition, so you know,

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Speaker 1: a very circular letter that's dealing with the coming together

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Speaker 1: of Jews and Gentiles into one body united in Christ,

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Speaker 1: and this somehow serving as a calling into account the

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Speaker 1: principalities and powers of the day. You know, it's Phijians

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Speaker 1: I think three ten, where it talks about the church

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Speaker 1: calling them to account. Like there's a sense in which

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Speaker 1: we are supposed to accomplish this unity through Christ that

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Speaker 1: everyone else is trying to do. But it always goes

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Speaker 1: astray because the unifying factor, the peg in the ground

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Speaker 1: is it's constantly sort of shifting and moving.

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Speaker 4: It just can't work. And so.

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Speaker 1: But it's not a call to to your point, like

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Speaker 1: it's not a call to color blindness, like Paul still

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Speaker 1: refers to Jews and Gentiles. There's a sense in which

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Speaker 1: these two groups are the interesting part of them coming together,

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Speaker 1: maybe the god glorifying part about them coming together is

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Speaker 1: that they're not becoming uniform. Yeah right, right, they're they're

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Speaker 1: they're coming together in love despite difference, yeah right, and

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Speaker 1: and and being together as different peoples. They're not being

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, made uniform whitewashed.

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Speaker 4: However, we wanted to say that like good contrast on

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Speaker 4: the TV.

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Speaker 1: I love that, right, it's nothing's adjusted to beg like

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Speaker 1: it's it's that it's they're coming together in difference.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And the diversity, I mean it is moving towards not

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Speaker 3: towards uniformity, but it is moving to unity. Yes that

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Speaker 3: that that the fact that unity because of that diversity. Actually,

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Speaker 3: I mean that this is the vision that John gets

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Speaker 3: that when they're gathered around the throne from every tribe

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Speaker 3: tongue in nation, it actually brings more glory to the

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Speaker 3: one who has unified us.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, on paper.

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Speaker 3: I was just in Thailand just this past summer, just

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Speaker 3: as an example of this being played out, and on

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Speaker 3: Sunday morning, I'm literally worshiping with tribe tongue in nation

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Speaker 3: all around the world. We were in a pan Asian context.

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Speaker 3: It was beautiful and at one point one of the

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Speaker 3: guys who was singing, he's from India. He asked for

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Speaker 3: all the Indians to come up and sing a song

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Speaker 3: of praise with him. And then he's thoughts that, in fact,

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Speaker 3: I'd also like the Pakistanis to come up as well. Now,

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Speaker 3: for those of you that know the history between Indian Pakistan,

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Speaker 3: there's not a lot of love.

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Speaker 2: Between these communities, right.

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Speaker 3: These are two nuclear nations that are at odds with

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Speaker 3: each other, have been for decades. James to see these

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Speaker 3: two groups up on stage together, and there was probably

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Speaker 3: about one hundred of us out of this conference of

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Speaker 3: a couple one hundred people that were singing praises together

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Speaker 3: that on paper, there's no reason why those two groups

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Speaker 3: should be singing together.

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Speaker 4: Yea.

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Speaker 3: And yet because of the finished work of Christ, who,

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Speaker 3: as he says in Revelation five, buy your blood like

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Speaker 3: part of the Atonement plays into this right by your

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Speaker 3: blood you purchase for yourself people from every tribe, tongue

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Speaker 3: in nation. It was one of the most beautiful experiences

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Speaker 3: that I saw of how the Gospel still maintains the identity,

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Speaker 3: the reality of ethnicity, but for this greater purpose, this

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Speaker 3: greater symphony. Right, we want woodwinds and brasses and percussions,

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Speaker 3: we want the different parts of the symphony, but the

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Speaker 3: whole point is that they work together for this greater

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Speaker 3: performance of the lamb. Which, yeah, seeing things like that.

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Speaker 3: So for me as a clinician, I'm trying to do

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Speaker 3: that on a little more of an individual level, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: trying to help people understand what God is trying to do,

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Speaker 3: I think on a macro level through the Church for

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Speaker 3: the world. How do I help you then understand that

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Speaker 3: either identify as it too little, too much, and then

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Speaker 3: actually push towards something that actually gets to be part

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Speaker 3: of it. Whether they are a Christian, whether they are

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Speaker 3: someone who can kind of be part of that larger

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Speaker 3: narrative of God's work, or even for those who don't

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Speaker 3: have a faith perspective. It is amazing how I'm still

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Speaker 3: able to speak into helping them understand whether it's too

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Speaker 3: much or too little, and how that may contribute or

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Speaker 3: pull away from human flourishing and that's ultimately what we're

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Speaker 3: trying to do here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really I think it's a really interesting challenge.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you're talking about the color blindness and

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Speaker 1: the color of essential ism, my mind went to universalism

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Speaker 1: versus tribalism.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: There's this sense in which, like, yeah, we're all human,

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Speaker 1: but just saying we're all human doesn't really acknowledge any

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Speaker 1: of the unique ways each one of us is actually embodied.

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Speaker 1: But if we say, well, let's be tribal, then it's

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Speaker 1: just you know, me and my fellow white guys hanging out.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you're kind of like what just happened there?

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Speaker 1: Like neither one of those is quite right, And so

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Speaker 1: you're sort of navigating these two ideas and saying, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's okay to understand your tribe, right, and it like

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Speaker 1: you're going to be shaped by your tribe to some

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Speaker 1: degree and understandably so, right, But that doesn't mean your

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Speaker 1: tribe is better than every other tribe, and that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that you're detached from the human race so that

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Speaker 1: these people aren't part of the Like now, you've got Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're shaped by your tribe.

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Speaker 4: That's cool.

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Speaker 1: Now you're integrating in with everyone else somehow, like this

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Speaker 1: is a negotiation process maybe, But again I think I

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Speaker 1: don't know how familiar you are with an Asia Art's work.

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Speaker 4: Have you ever read any nature Art?

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Speaker 1: I mean that his notion of memetic desire, which for

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Speaker 1: those of you who aren't familiar, Basically, it's this idea

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Speaker 1: that we all have something that we're sort of shooting for.

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Speaker 1: We all have models, and as we follow this model,

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Speaker 1: it inevitably comes to a point of conflict because as

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Speaker 1: we conform to the model that we're seeking to emulate,

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Speaker 1: we start to pick up the same desires, the same interests,

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Speaker 1: and go after the same for lack of better term resources,

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Speaker 1: and so it almost always creates a conflict, except with Christ.

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Speaker 1: And this is what Gerard really highlights is that when

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Speaker 1: we're all seeking to conform to the image of Christ,

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Speaker 1: if Christ is the one we're seeking to emulate, you

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Speaker 1: don't run into conflict.

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Speaker 4: You ultimately run into peace.

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Speaker 1: And so that's sort of a rough summary of Nature Art,

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Speaker 1: but it seems app to what we're kind of talking

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Speaker 1: about a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I think so and that is the this is this

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Speaker 3: is my my Chesterton tension point, right, this is this

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Speaker 3: is what GK did for me, is that he helped

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Speaker 3: me appreciate it's in the tension that you're find the

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Speaker 3: greatest joy, right, instead of saying, well is it this

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Speaker 3: or that? And and he goes out of his way

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Speaker 3: to say, and I thing this is an Orthodox where

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Speaker 3: he goes out of his way to say, listen, it's

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Speaker 3: not a matter of balance between it's the tension of

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Speaker 3: right that yes, you have this identity that's informed by

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Speaker 3: your culture and ethnicity and your tribe, and you're part

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Speaker 3: of this greater narrative, this greater story, this greater humanity

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Speaker 3: that is actually not about you in your tribe. It's

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Speaker 3: actually something bigger. So is it either or no? Chesterton

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Speaker 3: actually says it's both. And then the questions of affections

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Speaker 3: that you're ultimately saying, yeah, James Smith to me has

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Speaker 3: helped a lot in this.

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Speaker 2: Area, like we become that which we love.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So if I if I love my tribe so much,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not saying that's wrong, I have a Canadian

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Speaker 3: flag hanging in my house somewhere, there's a certain love

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Speaker 3: of country that I have. Right, I'm not saying that

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Speaker 3: that's wrong, But to what end right If I'm not

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Speaker 3: pushing on the tension point of how love of culture, context, ethnicity, nation,

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Speaker 3: whatever it is, If it doesn't push up against this

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Speaker 3: tension point of something bigger than just that, I actually

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Speaker 3: find less flourishing. I find my affections are not satisfied

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Speaker 3: in what I think is the best, and I become

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Speaker 3: a smaller sense of self in that sense because my

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Speaker 3: affections are actually whittling away rather than being nourished.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I know you've done some work on critical

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Speaker 4: race theory. I have too, and.

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Speaker 1: There's part of me that sort of is sympathetic to

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Speaker 1: the arguments there.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Right, even some of the intersectional work that I've read.

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Speaker 1: You kind of sit back in your life, like, no,

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Speaker 1: some of this actually does make sense, Like you can

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Speaker 1: see that it's working itself out like that, that there

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Speaker 1: are these sort of double oppressed classes where you know,

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Speaker 1: the maybe the legal protections just haven't caught up, or

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Speaker 1: maybe you have you know, not only a prejudice, sort

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Speaker 1: of a racial prejudice, but also you're physically smaller, right

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Speaker 1: or something like that, Like you have all these sort

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Speaker 1: of money plays into it, whatever else plays in At

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Speaker 1: the same time, I kind of find myself saying, man,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like there's any way to work this

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Speaker 1: out really and fix it. And so what I like

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Speaker 1: about what you're saying with the tension point is you

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Speaker 1: don't have to let go of either side. What you

400
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Speaker 1: have to do is you have to recognize the tension

401
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Speaker 1: and constantly adjust to it. But you're sort of always

402
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Speaker 1: readjusting to this tension, and you're not trying to sit

403
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Speaker 1: in just one place and be really comfortable in the

404
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Speaker 1: discomfort right and say, you know, I'm gonna this is

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Speaker 1: my flag, I've planeted.

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Speaker 4: I'm not moving anywhere.

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Speaker 1: You have to sort of let that tension move and

408
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Speaker 1: shape you a little bit and and push you toward repentance,

409
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Speaker 1: push you toward change strategy, push you toward you know,

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Speaker 1: all those different kinds of things that would actually make

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Speaker 1: you rethink stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a great point because as you've probably

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Speaker 3: had conversations as I have, when someone does read the

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Speaker 3: full title of my dissertation and they see that I

415
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Speaker 3: engage with CRTs poretic, they're like, yeah, man.

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Speaker 2: I thought you loved Jesus, what's going on here?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, let's let's have a conversation, because again,

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Speaker 3: to many, it's like either or either this is the

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Speaker 3: best thing that has ever happened since sliced bread, or

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Speaker 3: this is from the pit of hell. Right.

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Speaker 2: And what I often try to do is similar to

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Speaker 2: what you just said. Listen.

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Speaker 3: I think I think there's some valid observations here that

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Speaker 3: it provides, as especially first generation as as they were

426
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Speaker 3: essentially trying to look at why have not advanced in

427
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Speaker 3: the ways of civil rights that we thought we should

428
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Speaker 3: be at this point, right, And so Eric Bell and

429
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Speaker 3: others are trying to wrestle with that, and they're identifying

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Speaker 3: I think somewhat correctly some diagnoses of culture.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: The concern comes in when they and I would argue

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Speaker 3: more second gen CRT comes along and when a prescription

434
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Speaker 3: then is applied to the diagnoses.

435
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Speaker 5: Right.

436
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Speaker 3: So good diagnosis needs a right prescription, but a wrong

437
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Speaker 3: prescription to treat the diagnosis can actually make it even worse. Right,

438
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Speaker 3: And so the prescription that second gen CRT actually doesn't

439
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Speaker 3: appreciate some of the tension points, and then try to

440
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: apply these other narratives that were never necessarily part of

441
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 3: the original contract. So whether it is from Syrian or

442
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,479
Speaker 3: Marxist ideologies or whatever it is, we won't get into

443
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 3: all these details, but the reality is that they're pushing

444
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 3: into it an answer that then give room for exactly

445
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: what you're talking about. Where do we both need to challenge?

446
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: But where do we also need to grow? Where do

447
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 3: I need to help others? But where do I need

448
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 3: to repent of myself? Is it either or? Or is

449
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 3: it both?

450
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 5: And?

451
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 3: And so I often talk about that as a good

452
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 3: example of good observation but bad prescription. So how do

453
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 3: we think that much better? We as Christians have a

454
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 3: narrative amid a narrative that speaks even more so to

455
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: this reality that I think we can lean into as

456
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 3: a means of helping people in their flourishing.

457
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I've.

458
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: Always found so when I was studying it, I was

459
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: kind of like, are there any instances in scripture where

460
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: we could actually see something of this dynamic?

461
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 4: Right?

462
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 5: Not?

463
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 4: Can I prove CRT from scripture? Right?

464
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: That's not what I was trying to take amautical principle. Yeah,

465
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: it's always yeah, that's always what you want to do.

466
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to I'm going to take my idea to

467
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: scripture and make Scripture prove it. But no, I was like,

468
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: are these dynamics available? I mean, you think about the

469
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: early ur right, and you've got you know, all of

470
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: these communities that are at the crossroads of all these

471
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: multiple trade routes. They are metropolitan, right, They're they're getting

472
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: in an influx of different sorts of Jews and Gentiles

473
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: from all over the place in addition to having the

474
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: more stables you and gentile communities that are melding together

475
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: as part of the church. And so they're not like,

476
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like they have the Jewish Church

477
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: over here in the Gentile Church over here. It's there together.

478
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: So I mean, you know, I looked at things like

479
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: Romans fourteen and fifteen. You see some of these dynamics,

480
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,959
Speaker 1: and what do you seek Paul doing? You say, you

481
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: hear him calling like, hey, don't judge one another, you know,

482
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: out do one another and showing honor, come together, be together.

483
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: The historian acts where the Greek speaking Jews come and

484
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: they're like, hey, I don't know whether you noticed this,

485
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: but we're not being fed, you know. Yeah, yeah, And

486
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: I mean the apostles aren't just like a stop and planning.

487
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: You're not praying it, you know, like, they respond, They

488
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: recognize the problem and they respond to it, and they

489
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 1: sort of reorder themselves to make sure that this is

490
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: cared for. And I just think that those stories, again,

491
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: not that they demonstrate CRT or something like that, but

492
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: they do offer some insights into dynamics that occur within

493
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: communities of difference and how we sometimes just our assumptions

494
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: lead us towards something that we weren't intending. Yeah, now

495
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: that's not to say that those that we never intend

496
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: to do bad stuff. It's just saying that these things

497
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,239
Speaker 1: can tend to just sort of systemically grow into us,

498
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: and we need to be aware of those and allow

499
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: ourselves to be shaken out of them a bit.

500
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 3: And it's a great point because I mean, to me,

501
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 3: Acts really does. I've actually done this in counseling with

502
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: some people those are faith perspective who are struggling with

503
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 3: these issues. How do I understand my ethnic realities in

504
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 3: light of the cultural pressures as I'm trying to live

505
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 3: this out in my faith. Acts to me is a

506
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: great casebook of sorts. I know, again, for hermeneutics. That's

507
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 3: not the main point, but it is a great facebook

508
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 3: of the church wrestling with this and sometimes stumbling through it. Right,

509
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 3: whether it's Peter up on this roof and he has

510
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: this vision a rise, kill and eat, and you're like,

511
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: what the heck is all that about? Like, what the

512
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: and then he gets this knock at the door by

513
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: this Italian like okay, wait, is that that's oh interesting? Okay,

514
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 3: So I'm supposed to go tell him the gospel, O.

515
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 4: God, I'm supposed to eat him.

516
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the constructs that are be but he still

517
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: stumbles through because you have just other story in Galatians

518
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: where Peter has no problem eating with him Gentiles until

519
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 3: the Jews walk in.

520
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 2: Sorry, dude, I'm not I gotta go okay with my

521
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: brotherre In.

522
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 3: And when Paul finds out about this, he's like, you're

523
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: kidding right, like and and what Paul says is this

524
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 3: is this is because you're in a this is an

525
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 3: affront to the Gospel, right And then fact to me

526
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: is always what fascinates me with this is that this

527
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: is this is not just a peripheral issue. This is

528
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 3: not a second or tertiary issue. Yeah, this is this

529
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: is a core issue that again, if we only make

530
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 3: it about us, I think that's when it gets too far.

531
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 3: But if we do relate it to the Gospel, to

532
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: the work of Jesus Christ. So when Paul confronts some

533
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: Englatian says, you are not in keeping with the Gospel,

534
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 3: it's not about necessarily who you're eating with, it's what

535
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 3: you're doing to represent Jesus Christ.

536
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 4: That's us, right.

537
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 3: And so I love that I can use passages like

538
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: that to kind of help my clients and others. Listen,

539
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 3: we're gonna stumble through this, and that's kind of part

540
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 3: of the other thing is can we just give each

541
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: other some grace here? Like this is this has been

542
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: going on for two thousand years. Jews has struggled with

543
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 3: it because they're like, hey, we're God's chosen people. But

544
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: now all of a sudden you want them like to

545
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 3: come in like really, you'll be in Eunichs like really, okay,

546
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: Like sure, yes, yeah, we're still stumbling through it and

547
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: we have. But I think that that's why the Gospel

548
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: gives us the north start to be able to kind

549
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: of keep pushing.

550
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

551
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting to look the transformative relationships in

552
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: the New Testament more generally, and then think about how

553
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: that might inform the way we think about multiculturalism in

554
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: the church today. I mean, Paul's letter to Fi Lehman,

555
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: you know, asking him to receive as back. Yeah, right,

556
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: And and the way Paul encourages him to treat Anissimus

557
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: when he comes back was a social innovation in and

558
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: of itself, like don't don't overly punish me, you know

559
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: this person like put all that on my account.

560
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 4: You know.

561
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: It's almost as if Paul is saying, if you're going

562
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: to beat him, just beat me, you know, like, if

563
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: you're going to punish him, punish me. And he involves

564
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: himself in that in such a way that you get

565
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: this sense that, I phi Lehman is not going to

566
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: do this to Anius, like he is going to welcome

567
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,239
Speaker 1: him back as a Christian brother, and that the use

568
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: whatever breakage of that relationship there would have been, that's

569
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: going to get healed up. But I mean, I think

570
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: those are relational dynamics that the New Testament really does encourage.

571
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: And when we think about how to deal with that

572
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: in a multicultural situation, I think there's good resources there

573
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: for us.

574
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 4: I guess that's all I'm saying.

575
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's exactly, And it's constantly pushing us to then, yeah,

576
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: push towards this greater identity. Again, particularly for those of

577
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: us that have faith in Christ. It uses those realities.

578
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 3: I often refer to this as I want to avoid

579
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 3: cultural egalitarianism, right, Yeah, whatever your thoughts are about the

580
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: original egalitarian complementarianism, what I'm trying to avoid is that

581
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: God gets rid of, or flattens out all the cultural

582
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: distinctions as it relates to salvation. Yes, none of us

583
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: hold any swim to salvation because of our ethnicity, and

584
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: so in that sense, it's miles apart. And I think,

585
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: going back to what you said about Ephesians, this is

586
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: the beauty of the gospel, right, But then the outworking

587
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 3: of the gospel is the bringing together of these two communities.

588
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 3: Like the dividing wall of hostility has been broken down,

589
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: and these groups, I mean those gentiles, we're gonna be

590
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: on the far walls of the temple, right, Like there's

591
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 3: a court for you guys.

592
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: Way out there.

593
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: We'll let women first, and then Jews and then like

594
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: there's enough separation. Yeah, and in Christ, all of that

595
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: is removed. It's just such a radical notion that still

596
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: understands their reality and yet invites them into something bigger.

597
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome.

598
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: Well, I think those Romans fourteen and fifteen, which we

599
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: often sleep on. You know, by the time you get

600
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: through Romans, you're like, we've spent so much time on

601
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: one through eleven, rightly, right one through eight, you kind

602
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: of you're like, those are the chapters. Then nine through eleven,

603
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: you know, everybody's interested in eschatology and what's the separation

604
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: prechurged is, So you got to do those, and by

605
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: the time you hit chapter twelve, you're just like, I'm

606
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: out of the.

607
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: Right.

608
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: So fourteen and fifteen you kind of we usually sleep on,

609
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: but I think they're really crucial because in those chapters,

610
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: what Paul is saying is, look, let the week be weak,

611
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: let the strong be strong, and figure out how to

612
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: live together with that. And I think, you know, in

613
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: that context, it was there's some mix of juw gentile

614
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: in there, and so he's not looking at flattening out distinctives.

615
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: What he's saying is all of these people, and he

616
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: actually talks about this, is that they all belong to

617
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: a different You know, you're not their master. They're answerable

618
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: to God, and so don't worry about judging them. Just

619
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: live in peace with them, bear with them, don't cause

620
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: them to stumble, right, Let them have their distinctive, whether

621
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: it's weak or strong, and let them live as they

622
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 1: seek to conform more closely to the image of Christ.

623
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: Just let them do their thing, but do it together.

624
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: Don't isolate yourself.

625
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 4: From one another. You know, it implies that you're you know,

626
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 4: he doesn't.

627
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: He's not just like, hey, just let the Jews go

628
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: do their things and the Gentiles go do their things

629
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: like and don't just stop looking at each other, right,

630
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, and not like separating two little kids in

631
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: a room. What he's actually saying is no, stay together

632
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: and figure this stuff out, but be kind to one another,

633
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: allow everybody room to grow and think. And you know,

634
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: don't be so hell bent on figuring all of this

635
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: out like you're right there wrong and it should be

636
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: this way and it should you know. I just think

637
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: those are chapters that help us frame out maybe how

638
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: these relationships should go and the sort of approach we

639
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: should be having.

640
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love how you said we shouldn't sleep on

641
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 3: this because actually all thought it was really important. This

642
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: is the outworking about theology that he spends that's right,

643
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 3: chapters getting into and so how much more I mean

644
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: for me? Honestly, I was just talking about this last

645
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 3: week with some students on campus, about the other conversation

646
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: of deconstruction right about you know, doesn't mean to leave

647
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: faith to struggle, doubt, all those different things. And I

648
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 3: was sharing with some students how do we maintain our

649
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 3: faith in the midst of significant evil too, especially when

650
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 3: it is in this construct racially oriented right in fact,

651
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 3: to my story and my parents and their willingness to

652
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 3: persevere in faith in the midst of racial evil, to me,

653
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 3: the community of the African American Church in particular has

654
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: been a wonderful source of encouragement that for whatever hundreds

655
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 3: of years of chattel slavery that they were put under

656
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 3: and then moving into Jim Crow laws of lynching, like

657
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 3: all the other historical realities, most of them maintain their faith.

658
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 3: Their faith in CHRISTI is actually what helped them persevere

659
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: in the midst of such racial hatred that if anyone

660
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 3: had a right, if I can even say it that way,

661
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: to deconstruct from Christianity you would think of being the

662
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 3: Black Church, right, Yeah, given the horreduous evil that many

663
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 3: generations of blacks have had to endure, and yet it

664
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: actually helped them persevere in their faith because they realize

665
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: it's not just having to work together. How do we

666
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 3: live together with whites? Well, what if the whites are

667
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: subjecting you to slavery and are constantly putting you in

668
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 3: horrific situations to which they still say, no, we still

669
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: got to figure out how to live with them.

670
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: We still need to love them.

671
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: We still have to figure out what an example to

672
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 3: me and to I think successive generations of not just

673
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: the American narrative, which I think it speaks into that,

674
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: but I think even more so to the Kingdom narrative

675
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 3: right of how we as Christians can learn and that

676
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 3: stort can be repeated in multiple contexts outside of America

677
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: as well, that I think we need to hear more

678
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: of that and realize this is actually what helps from

679
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: about with the Kingdom in some some really beautiful ways.

680
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: Well me ask you this because this is something that

681
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: comes up an awful lout when I'm talking to people

682
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I just think it's really interesting.

683
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: So I'm kind of looking for how do you use

684
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: this in a counseling context, But where does the lament

685
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: actually come into the healing process, like an admission that

686
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: something is actually loong here and not just you know,

687
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: sort of the fact base, yes this is wrong, this

688
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: is right, but also a real deep sense that just

689
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, as Planting could put it, the world is.

690
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 4: Not as is not as it's supposed to be shalom.

691
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: Right, And this this like tension is like rising up

692
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: within me.

693
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 4: But I don't know what to do with it.

694
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: And we're not a lamenting culture, right, We're pull ourselves

695
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 1: up by our bootstrap sort of culture most of the time.

696
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: So how do you do you do you do you

697
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: find that lament enters into counseling it?

698
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 4: Like, how does that work for you know?

699
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: This is kind of where some of my own cultural

700
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 3: realities play in. I kind of refer to myself as

701
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 3: a bit of a coconut. I'm brown and hairy on

702
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: the outside, but I'm pretty white on the inside. Because

703
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: while my parents are from India and I grew up

704
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 3: with food and culture and language, I grew up in Canada,

705
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 3: and so you know, I had all the contexts of

706
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 3: you know, church and school and community that were generally white. Yeah,

707
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 3: so we often use this word code switching, right, You're

708
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 3: able to kind of move in different circles and adjust

709
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 3: yourself to those different realities. In my more kind of

710
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 3: Caucasian white contexts, I remember hearing phrases like, you know,

711
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: when someone would die, they would ask, how's he doing? Oh,

712
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: he's doing well, he's keeping it together.

713
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: Right.

714
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: I didn't realize until later what essentially that mean. It

715
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: means he's not emotional, he's not crying, he's able to.

716
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 3: He went to the funeral, and then the next day

717
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: he went back to work, and you know, it just

718
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: kept on going. That's what that's the good good. And

719
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 3: then I'd go to funerals over on my Indian side

720
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: of the family and I would be like, they are wailing,

721
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 3: They're like sometimes prostrate on the floor or like hunched

722
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: over each other, and it would go on for days.

723
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: Sometimes I'm like, what is going on here? And it

724
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 3: helped me realize again some of this distinction. And we're

725
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 3: not saying one is better than the other. I think

726
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 3: it's just the realities of both these cultures. But the

727
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: challenge that always comes is how scripture then speaks to

728
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 3: this right And so when you when you read the Psalms,

729
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: my goodness, the opportunities that they give for lament as

730
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 3: a means of an appropriate, if not expected, response to

731
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: the evil. As you said, plantic that that plantic a

732
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: quote for me, just helps the.

733
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 2: Vandalism of shaloam. This is not the way supposed to be.

734
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 3: And yes, do we want to figure out how it

735
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 3: can be corrected by the grace of God and the

736
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 3: movement of the kingdom. Yes, but before we get there,

737
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: can we just sit for a moment and just we Yeah.

738
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: I find myself with a lot of my clients who

739
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: are coming out of a Western individualistic construct. To them,

740
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 3: that's a really hard pill to swallow because it feels

741
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: like a failure on their part, Like I just need

742
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 3: to get over I just need to get back to work.

743
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: And when I'm able to open this up, you know,

744
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 3: another element of the Psalms that I often use sometimes

745
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: is sometimes not just lament, but in precatory and trying

746
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 3: to kind of how do I help you get angry

747
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: over this reality too?

748
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: And yes, that mean we need.

749
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 3: To pray for the mountains to descend on your enemies.

750
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 3: I don't know if we don't want to go that far,

751
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 3: but we may need to be willing to just be

752
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: angry over the evil that you see. That those emotions

753
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 3: are part of the vocabulary God has given to humanity.

754
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: And before you could move move on to what's next,

755
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 3: you have to sit.

756
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 2: In the here and now.

757
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's really that's a hard pill to swallow.

758
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 3: But to me, that's what counseling is is a lot

759
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 3: of times just opening a space for them in that

760
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 3: moment away from work, away from family and the expectations

761
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 3: of their community that stiff up or a lit keep

762
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: it together, right, I give them a space just to say,

763
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: like Job's friends did right, We often rightfully complain against

764
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: his advice, but the good they did they sat with

765
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: him for seven days.

766
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 2: And weft right.

767
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's something good and holy about that. And

768
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 3: so for my clients, I'm just trying to They're often

769
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 3: thinking what do I do next? I'm trying to say,

770
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 3: what do we do here and now? How can we

771
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 3: use this space in the vocabulary of emotion to see

772
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 3: where God wants to lead us?

773
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: I will say, it's really interesting. So my wife and

774
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: I've talked about this several times. So I am that

775
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: sort of pull myent, you know, like just gut it

776
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: out right, like I was going most dependable in high school,

777
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: and that's just sort of carried through. And so it's like,

778
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 1: you know, look when when stuff is going crazy in South,

779
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,479
Speaker 1: it's like everybody kind of says, okay, yeah, but he'll

780
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: do he'll make it right. Yeah, And so it's fine,

781
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: like I don't mind that, but it's also you know,

782
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 1: it does sort of limit my emotional range and difficult situations.

783
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: But the one thing I will say, like the imprecatory palms,

784
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: those sort of speak to me a little bit more.

785
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 4: I will say, it's only within a limited range. And

786
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 4: so that's the other thing my wife and I usually

787
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 4: talk about.

788
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: She's like, you're very tribal, right, You're you have a

789
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: small group of people that you want to protect, and

790
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: when bad things happen to them, you get really animated

791
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: about it. When things happen outside of that, you're not

792
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: so concerned, right, And I find it really interesting just

793
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: to hear you talk through that, because my tendency would

794
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: be like if I'm psychoanalyzing myself a little bit. I

795
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: would say that part of my problem is that because

796
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: I don't lament, I don't all also get angry, right,

797
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: like the smallness of the world that you really care

798
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: about almost like for me conditions what I feel sad

799
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: about and what I get angry about. And so there's

800
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: a broadening that I think I need to do in

801
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,479
Speaker 1: some cases, and I've seen that happen, like when I've

802
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: done some of this, like multicultural research, when I talk

803
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: to people about it. I have a friend who's really

804
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: good in this, like he understands it from a biblical

805
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: and theological perspective, and it's like I start to feel

806
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: that way, but it requires a broadening. Does that resonate

807
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: with you, Ben at all? Like this idea that there

808
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: has to be sort of a broadening of your scope

809
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: on some level without just sort of decoupling you and

810
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: detaching you from your embedded reality.

811
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 3: No, I appreciate you. Yeah, working that out yourself. That'll

812
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: be one hundred and fifty dollars for the session.

813
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, checking the mail. Checking the mail.

814
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 3: Part of that is and I think this is where

815
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 3: it connects to some of this discussion of ethnicity and

816
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: multiculturalism and things like that. As well, if we've become

817
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: so focused in on our own tribe, our own community

818
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 3: without realizing no, we are part of this larger community

819
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 3: called humanity, right and somewhat understandable. Listen, when my wife

820
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 3: is offended, I'm going to fight back. When my kids

821
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 3: are under threat, I'm going to do something about it.

822
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: And as my concentric circles move out, my emotional attachment

823
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 3: to them is less, and so my response may be

824
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 3: less accordingly as well. But I need to give some

825
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 3: space to realize I can't be I can't fight for

826
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 3: everyone in that sense. I just don't have the emotional, physical,

827
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: mental capacity to kind of be so broad to be

828
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: effective for everyone. And Yet at those times where I'm

829
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 3: so singularly focused on this reality and I feel all

830
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: the feels as we're here, sometimes I do need to

831
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 3: open it up. I'll help my clients open up as

832
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 3: well and realize, are you missing something bigger beyond this?

833
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 2: Though? As well?

834
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: To be honest, I think this is what the psalms

835
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 3: do right. All my enemies surround me strombles of basing company.

836
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 3: Where's my hell come from? I look to you like

837
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: the posture of looking up that we read in the psalms,

838
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: So it's both recognizing the evil that's here, but at

839
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: this same time, the psalms often say well where can

840
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 3: you look though, where can you find hope? You need

841
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 3: to broaden your your perspective. This is not denying the

842
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: reality of this. It's just saying this is not just

843
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 3: the reality. There's a big, greater reality that needs to

844
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 3: be brought into focus as well. So I'm always trying

845
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 3: to give space for what you're dealing with now. I

846
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 3: don't want to minimize that. I don't want to say

847
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 3: I'll just get it's not that bad. No, this really

848
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 3: is bad right now right here and tension point, there's

849
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 3: something bigger. How can we kind of expand into that

850
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 3: broader perspective that doesn't minimize it, but actually gives it

851
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: some clarity. It helps you understand this is actually something

852
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: part of something bigger. Right This is why I think

853
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: biblical theology for me is so helpful, because it gives

854
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,959
Speaker 3: me that broad, broader meta narrative to kind.

855
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 2: Of speak into people's lives.

856
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sort of strikes me as you're talking there

857
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: that it's very similar to what Augustin talks about with

858
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: the love love of neighbor. You know, he talks about

859
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: number one, you know, all of our love should be

860
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: tossed into the current of our love for God, and

861
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: sort of this picture of a river flowing and all

862
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 1: the you know, God's love is the current. Your love

863
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: for God is the current, and anything that you throw

864
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: into that river is going to flow with that current.

865
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 4: Right.

866
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: It's kind of a I love that, you know, sort

867
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: of idea, this immersive love that and you know, encompasses

868
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: and carries along all of our other loves. Then he

869
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: also talks about everyone in the world. Every I think

870
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: he phrases it, every man in the world deserves an

871
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: equal amount of love. They're all equally deserving of love.

872
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: But each of us has a limited capacity, and so

873
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: our role is in large part to love those who

874
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: have been put in front of us. And he talks

875
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: about in terms of God's ordination, like God has placed

876
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: you somewhere, and so love the people where God has

877
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: placed you.

878
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 4: This is your role as a Christian.

879
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: But he never really loses sight of this broader perspective.

880
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, that's largely what we're talking

881
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: about when we're talking about these other emotions as well,

882
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: that it's sort of appropriate for us to be angry

883
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: or sad about the things that are close to us,

884
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: but those are within a context of us recognizing that

885
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: creation is groaning for the restoration that God is going

886
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: to bring. And this is one instance of that. You know,

887
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: we're now feeling the cosmic weight, you know, balanced on

888
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: the head of a pin of everything that is broken

889
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:01,720
Speaker 1: in this one moment.

890
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: That's a great point.

891
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and someways connects a little bit back to what

892
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 3: we were saying about some of the larger discussions of race, ethnicity,

893
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 3: how c our teammate even may help or speak into that.

894
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 3: One of the other areas I usually try to help

895
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 3: people kind of grasp is that in your quote of August,

896
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 3: I think highlights this this individualistic reality coupled with these

897
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 3: systemic realities.

898
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: Right, so this is another big discussion in large of this.

899
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the question off, guys, is it this or that? Again,

900
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 3: Chesterton helps me and it's like, well, actually it's both.

901
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 3: And that's hard for some to to kind of digest

902
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: because we do have individual responsibility, right for all have sin,

903
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 3: and I'm individually responsible to the to the to the

904
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 3: call of the gospel. In my life or to the

905
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 3: responsibilities of my identity and how that played itself out. Ye,

906
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 3: and I'm part of systems. I'm part of there's larger

907
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: realities at work that are more more than just the

908
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 3: individualistic tribal entity that I have. That I mean, it

909
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 3: helps explain why I have sin to begin with. Because

910
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 3: as one of my non Christian friends, and so you're

911
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 3: telling me some dude named Adam thousands of years ago

912
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: on the other side of the world ate some fruit

913
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 3: and now I'm messed up because of it. I'm like, yeah,

914
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 3: you actually that stinks, Like from his individualistic perspective, that's

915
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: unfair that someone over there would have this negative impact

916
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 3: on me today. That's a system, right, it's called the

917
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: human race sin. Yeah, the second atom gives us the

918
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: hope though another guy that you had nothing to do with,

919
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: that you didn't earn, and yet because of what he finished,

920
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 3: this new system, this new reality can be placed into

921
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 3: your life. I'm often having to help people kind of

922
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 3: sometimes they're a little more collectivistic in their mindset and

923
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,959
Speaker 3: so they lose the individualistic responsibility, or they're a little

924
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 3: too individualistic and they don't appreciate some of the larger

925
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 3: systems at play as well. Yeah, Keller, for me, has

926
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 3: been a huge help in this area as he tries

927
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 3: to recognize again we need to push into both and realities.

928
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 3: As he says it, that we are individuals of systems

929
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 3: both for racial engagement but more so for kingdom engagement

930
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 3: and what that looks like.

931
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting.

932
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I think when I was having more frequent

933
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: conversations about CRT, and I don't know whether I'm sad

934
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: that that conversation has sort of started to dwindle down

935
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: or whether I think it you know, we need to

936
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: continue sort of bringing it back up and have good

937
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: biblical and theological conversations about systemic evil and our role

938
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: within that. But one of the things I found was

939
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: when I drive into Saint Louis from my house. I

940
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: live over on the Illinois side, so I'm drawing over

941
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: the Missouri side and I have to pass these It's

942
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: like strip club row and on one of the digital signs,

943
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: they almost always have an AD and it says student

944
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: loans got you down, We're hiring wow, And I'm like,

945
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: what an instance of systemic evil?

946
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 5: Wow?

947
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 4: Right?

948
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: You just think about all the things that come into

949
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 1: play for that sign to make sense, to work, to work,

950
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: and you just sit back and you're like, Wow, this

951
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: is this is what we mean when we talk about

952
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 1: systemic evil. People are now you know, they're struggling under

953
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 1: student debt, and this place is going to offer them

954
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: an opportunity to exploit themselves to pay it off.

955
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 4: And it always drives.

956
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: And every time I see it, I'm like, man like,

957
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: if we don't believe in systemic sin, I don't even

958
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: know how to make sense of that.

959
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 3: Right, right, And and that's that's part of what I,

960
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 3: with a large number of my clients, is trying to

961
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: then recognize, as much as your individual narrative matters, it

962
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: is part of this larger system well for good and

963
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 3: for bad. So the bat that we examples like that

964
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 3: that highlight, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but

965
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 3: against powers and principalities, against the that the agencies that

966
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 3: are at active work in these systems to pull down

967
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 3: the Kingdom of God. And yet the calling for us

968
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 3: as a community of faith, right and so to me

969
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 3: that that then plays back into this discussion of ethnicity

970
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 3: and race that one of the greatest I heard this

971
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 3: quote recently, I don't even know who's attributed to, so

972
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 3: I'll pretend it's mine that the silence of God is

973
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 3: answered in the community.

974
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 2: Of the church.

975
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 4: Violence of God has answered.

976
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 3: In the community of the church. And there's something about,

977
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 3: particularly when the ethnic realities, that the things that on

978
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 3: paper we should not be together, but through the Gospel

979
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 3: we can come together. Is such a declaration to those powers, right,

980
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 3: is such a pronouncement against those systems at work. But

981
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 3: it's through the church.

982
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: It's not just me.

983
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I want to do the best I can,

984
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 3: but to the scree that I have to be part

985
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 3: of this other system called the church. That's that's where

986
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: these these realities start taking place in some beautiful ways.

987
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like we are the light of the world, right,

988
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: and so we are the salt.

989
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 4: We are the light.

990
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: And it goes back to that Ephesians three ten passage

991
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: where we are calling the powers and principalities to account,

992
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 1: demonstrating to them that they can't do what they're trying

993
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: to do. Only Christ can do what they are trying

994
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: to do. Absolutely, He is the ultimate power and authority,

995
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: and so when we unify around him, we we demonstrate

996
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 1: something different.

997
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: World.

998
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: Well, man, this has been great. We're coming up on

999
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: the end. I'll give you kind of the last word.

1000
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: When we think about multiculturalism in the church and you

1001
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: think about what could be done and some you know,

1002
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: maybe one or two concrete steps that we could take

1003
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 1: to start advancing in this area, what comes to mind.

1004
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a great question, and again, thank you so

1005
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 5: much for giving me some time. I I'm always interested

1006
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 5: in people stories. I think it's one of the things

1007
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 5: that got me into counseling, to become an educator, to

1008
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 5: become a pastor, Like all the different opportunities I've had

1009
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 5: in my life, it's always because I just love story,

1010
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 5: whether it's your story, James, whether it's the church's story

1011
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 5: and ultimately God's story.

1012
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 2: And I think that.

1013
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 3: Curiosity of just I want to get to know people

1014
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 3: and understand their story has has helped me both developed

1015
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 3: some if I can say cultural humility, right of recognizing

1016
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: I clearly don't have the full story of existence, of truth,

1017
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 3: of reality. I do believe there is truth. I do

1018
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 3: believe there's beauty. I do believe there is reality. It's

1019
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 3: just I don't have it all. So I encourage people

1020
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 3: just get curious about people's stories, especially when it comes

1021
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 3: to this area of ethnicity and multiculturalism. I know, were

1022
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 3: so encamped into our own political tribal realities, and it's

1023
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 3: hard to get out of that.

1024
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: For me.

1025
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 3: One way I kind of push myself in others is

1026
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 3: just get curious about other people's story. Let it develop

1027
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 3: some cultural humility to help you understand I need I

1028
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 3: need these other people, which to me then pushes me

1029
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 3: into okay, so how can I be part of this?

1030
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 3: The cultural humility actually energizes me more than anything else

1031
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 3: when I realize I don't have all the answers I

1032
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 3: need to hear these other stories. But you don't have

1033
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 3: all the answers either. In fact, we're a bunch of

1034
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 3: people that are stumbling through this thing. So how do

1035
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 3: we help each other? And how do we help the

1036
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 3: church and the community of God make movement towards this

1037
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 3: greater reality called the Kingdom? Usually one kind of has

1038
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 3: to come before the other. So I usually tell people

1039
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 3: get curious about what God is doing in people in

1040
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 3: other people's lives. Find ways to just learn about that

1041
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 3: coffee podcast, whatever it is, and you'd be surprised that

1042
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 3: what it helps you then kind of reprioritize in your

1043
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 3: own heart and then what you can really get excited

1044
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 3: about as God is wanting to move his kingdom.

1045
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 2: For his glory.

1046
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 4: Very cool. Yeah, I like that a lot.

1047
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 5: Man.

1048
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: Well, Ben, always a pleasure having you on. Thanks so

1049
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: much for being here. I think this is an important topic.

1050
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're tackling it and it's a great conversation.

1051
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 4: Really appreciate it.

1052
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 2: Always a joy for me, James.

1053
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, Well, we will catch you on the

1054
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian check Down. In the show description,

1055
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: I'll put a link to Ben's faculty page at CiU

1056
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: and his CV is posted there. If you want to

1057
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: check out some of the other stuff he's written and

1058
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, you can go right there and

1059
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: check that out. Otherwise, just encourage you to come on

1060
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,720
Speaker 1: back listen to the next episode of Thinking Christian.

1061
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1062
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to take a second to thank

1063
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us

1064
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 1: on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to life

1065
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: audio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered

1066
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

1067
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:07,919
Speaker 1: and more.