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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Maybe your church has talked about church growth before, and

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Speaker 2: you've only measured that by metrics and numbers and how

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Speaker 2: many hellos you're getting coming through the door. But what

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Speaker 2: if the growth that we are supposed to be growing

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Speaker 2: in is deeper, is more relational, is more theological than

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Speaker 2: we could ever imagine. That is what we are diving

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Speaker 2: into in today's episode. Hello, Hello, Hello, ladies and gents,

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Speaker 2: and welcome to this week's episode of the beloved podcast.

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Speaker 2: As always, it's your girl Kirby Kelly, and I'm back

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Speaker 2: at it again with yet another guest. As you all know,

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Speaker 2: by the time this episode is airing, my baby girl

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Speaker 2: has arrived, which is crazy. I'm probably just sitting at

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Speaker 2: home praying that God would give me an extra hour

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Speaker 2: of sleep.

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Speaker 1: But you get to enjoyed this episode, which.

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Speaker 2: I pre recorded with an incredible guest who wrote an

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Speaker 2: amazing book.

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Speaker 1: I know I always have people on here who are

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Speaker 1: writing the most amazing books, but it's true.

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Speaker 2: Every guest I feel like that I have on here

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Speaker 2: is just talking about things that I'm like.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's talking about this, but finally somebody is.

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Speaker 2: And the person who's joining me today is named Andrew root,

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Speaker 2: and he came out with a book called Bail and

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Speaker 2: the Gods of more Hold on Rescuing Church growth from idolatry.

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Speaker 2: That's a very interesting title. And maybe you work in

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Speaker 2: a church, maybe you don't. Maybe you're like, how is

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Speaker 2: this even relevant to me in what I do? I

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Speaker 2: work in finance, right, I don't know what you do

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Speaker 2: for a living, but I think as a church, a

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Speaker 2: global church, not just a singular church building, but as

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Speaker 2: a global church. This is a very necessary discussion for

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Speaker 2: a myriad of reason. So I want you to stick

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Speaker 2: through for the whole episode because I'm sure that as

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Speaker 2: you listen, you'll be like, wow, I didn't even realize

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Speaker 2: that in my own context, in my own culture, in

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Speaker 2: my own involvement with what God has called you to do,

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Speaker 2: maybe you have seen some of this idolatry trickle into

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Speaker 2: your own life. But before we get into that, I

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Speaker 2: want to let Andrew introduce himself. Andrew, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Can you let.

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Speaker 2: Everyone know a little bit about who you are, what

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Speaker 2: you do, what you're passionate about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thanks for having me on here. It's a

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Speaker 3: pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I live in the Twin cities in Saint Paul

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Speaker 3: on the Saint Paul's side of the river that separates

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Speaker 3: Minneapolis from Saint Paul. And I teach at Luther Seminary

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Speaker 3: and I've taught there for about twenty years. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: I write books and teach classes and walk my dog

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Speaker 3: and watch TV. That's basically what I do. So that's nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like a very full life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah I feel that way to me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Great.

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Speaker 2: I went up to Minneapolis for the first time this year,

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Speaker 2: and I one didn't realize how beautiful it was.

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Speaker 1: Like flying into the city.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I feel like I'm on the East

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Speaker 2: coast right now, like flying in and just seeing all

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Speaker 2: the way that the houses are and the greenery and everything.

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of ministry friends that live up

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Speaker 2: there too, so it's it's cool to know that it's

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Speaker 2: a pretty big, like ministry hub up there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, say the middle there's a lot of church's

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Speaker 3: a lot of interesting things going on around here. And uh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's beautiful too, like you said, I mean, there's ten

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Speaker 3: thousand legs. That's what we're known for. So you can

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Speaker 3: you see a lot of water when you fly in

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Speaker 3: that you don't expect in the Upper Midwest. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It is beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm excited to talk about your book. This is

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Speaker 2: one of those things I received a list from your

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Speaker 2: publisher of just like we have like all these books

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Speaker 2: coming out, do any of these topics or any of

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Speaker 2: these these people on here interest you? And when I

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Speaker 2: read the title of your book, I was like, I

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Speaker 2: gotta talk to this guy because this is such an

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Speaker 2: interesting topic and the way that you frame it, like

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Speaker 2: even theologically through looking through the lens of just who

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Speaker 2: Bail is? So can you just share why did you

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Speaker 2: even decide to write this book? Was it a pain

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Speaker 2: point in your in your heart? Was it through your

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Speaker 2: own experienceperience within the church? Like I want to leave

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Speaker 2: the floor to you to explain the culmination of how

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Speaker 2: you ended up writing this book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Probably the origin of this book is we have

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Speaker 3: to blame podcasts for probably it was. It was actually

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Speaker 3: in an interview, yeah, right, And we can blame everything

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Speaker 3: in the world on podcasts. So it was in an

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Speaker 3: interview for a podcast. And you know, trying to the

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Speaker 3: kind of trajectory of my work has been trying to

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Speaker 3: think about what it means to do ministry, What it

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Speaker 3: means to lead the church in a secular age? What

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Speaker 3: is a secular age? What is the kind of forces

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Speaker 3: it kind of thrust in our lap? How do we

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Speaker 3: respond to it? What does it mean to be faithful

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Speaker 3: inside of a secular age? And I just said a

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Speaker 3: kind of throwaway comment trying to articulate this that in

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Speaker 3: this time, of this secular moment, we become really susceptible

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Speaker 3: to fertility gods. You know that we're looking for more people,

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Speaker 3: more resources. It feels like the church broadly across Protestantism

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Speaker 3: has less than it needs, you know, like we need

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Speaker 3: more relevance, we need more people, and how do we

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Speaker 3: gain that?

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Speaker 1: And I can.

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Speaker 3: Understand those those tensions. I mean I feel them myself,

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Speaker 3: you know, being in an academic institution that's a Christian institution,

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Speaker 3: you can feel the sense like we don't have as

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Speaker 3: much as we did thirty years ago or twenty years ago.

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Speaker 3: But there is a theological temptation there. I mean, there

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Speaker 3: is a potentially yeah, spiritual problem with chasing growth for

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Speaker 3: growth's sake. So and I think this is a story

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Speaker 3: or one way to at least theologically read kind of

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Speaker 3: parts of the Old Testament and particularly the parts after

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Speaker 3: Solomon as this kind of loss of these gold and

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Speaker 3: this golden era and this need to get back to

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Speaker 3: the golden era that leads to this temptation to seek, yeah,

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Speaker 3: to seek for fertility, and we don't quite seek for

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Speaker 3: it as you know, clay idols or something like that

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Speaker 3: that we have in our living rooms, but we have

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Speaker 3: plenty of idols that we think can do this, and

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Speaker 3: we're addicted to growth in our own way.

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Speaker 2: M Well, I especially feel that in my own generation,

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Speaker 2: just being like such a social media culture where you

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Speaker 2: are constantly seeing people gain followers, people gain views, people

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Speaker 2: gain this, people gain that, and being a Christian, I

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Speaker 2: can see how that can so easily translate to well,

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Speaker 2: we need more people in attendance, We need to do

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Speaker 2: more spectacles to bring people in. We need to have

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Speaker 2: newer revelations of the Word of God in order to

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Speaker 2: keep things interesting with this generation bringing them into the church.

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Speaker 2: And I think that it kind of teeters. It can

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Speaker 2: teeter from this place of well, are you doing this

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Speaker 2: for the sake of you know, there's this church decline

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Speaker 2: and we're seeing people leave, and we want people to

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Speaker 2: know Jesus or like you're saying, has it turned into

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Speaker 2: this idol? I think that's something that a lot of

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Speaker 2: us probably don't even recognize might be an idol or

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Speaker 2: a mindset in our own life, something that we're actually

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Speaker 2: chasing in our own life. So I'm curious, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's probably many churches out there or just

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Speaker 2: individuals who are in ministry. We can even like make

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Speaker 2: this for ministry leaders, people who have a calling on

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Speaker 2: their life that want to see people saved and set free. Right,

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Speaker 2: and they feel this pressure to grow, especially in a

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Speaker 2: world where it feels like there is such an abandonment,

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Speaker 2: a deconstruction, a decline of the faith. But how do

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Speaker 2: we begin to break down maybe the idol it's become

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Speaker 2: versus the genuine desire to see people saved and set free?

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Speaker 1: Like how do we distinguish that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's really where you know, the book starts

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Speaker 3: and in many ways ends as this kind of sense

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Speaker 3: of like what do we mean by growth? And I

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Speaker 3: do think we kind of have this perception that all

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Speaker 3: growth is the same and that all growth is good.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's one of the ways I think that

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Speaker 3: we're formed is just to think that growing things are

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Speaker 3: good things. I mean sometimes your ministry leaders say things like, well,

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Speaker 3: if it's good, it's growing, and we know it's good

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Speaker 3: because it's growing, and yet you just have to think

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Speaker 3: a little bit about that realize, you know, like the

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Speaker 3: paradigmatic example of this is like cancer is growth. You know,

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Speaker 3: like that's not necessarily a good thing. Or we think

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Speaker 3: of like our you know, our own children, and you know,

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Speaker 3: you would think that you'd be very concerned if you

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Speaker 3: had a child who was two or three years old

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Speaker 3: who wasn't growing. You know, that would be that it's

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Speaker 3: a big fear for you know, parents of are their

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Speaker 3: children growing. But you would also be just as concerned

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Speaker 3: if your three year old child was thirteen feet tall,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like there would be a

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Speaker 3: sense of like just exponential growth on top of growth

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Speaker 3: on top of growth isn't good either, you know, like

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Speaker 3: I don't know, no one wants that. So like the

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Speaker 3: stories that really pushed forward this book was I mean

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Speaker 3: kind of two stories really played in and one is

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Speaker 3: that we got a puppy right as I was finishing

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Speaker 3: this book. And at one level, you know, like when

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Speaker 3: you have a puppy, you realize you want this puppy

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Speaker 3: to grow really quickly. I don't know, Like the puppy

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Speaker 3: stage is incredibly cute, but like the chaotic chaotic, the

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Speaker 3: teeth are so sharp and problematic. The puppy doesn't even

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Speaker 3: like to be petted. It just wants to bite your hand.

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Speaker 3: And then you know your puppy can't sleep through the night,

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Speaker 3: or you know, like you just in some things take time,

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Speaker 3: take time. Like your dog has to be a certain

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Speaker 3: age before it can really be potty trade. It has

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Speaker 3: to grow, it has to grow it's blatder so it

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Speaker 3: can make it through the night. And so I had

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Speaker 3: this really intent experience of wanting my puppy to grow up,

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Speaker 3: but also very clear that I didn't want my puppy

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Speaker 3: to be Clifford, you know, the red dog. Yeah, red dog,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So like, there's what do

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Speaker 3: we mean? There's a certain balance in growth. And I

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Speaker 3: got really enamored with that question because I took my

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Speaker 3: kids that this kind of book tells the story of

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Speaker 3: We did this kind of trip where I catch in

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Speaker 3: all my airline miles. I'm on airplanes far too much.

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Speaker 3: And we went to Jerusalem and we went to Istanbul,

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Speaker 3: and we went to Rome, and it was kind of

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Speaker 3: like the three Holy Cities of the of the Christian tradition.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't kind of move as my son was

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Speaker 3: going off to college to say like, you know, as

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Speaker 3: you move forward, the Christian story is yours. Now you're

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Speaker 3: moving into being a young adult. But we want you

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Speaker 3: to have an experience of the depth of its history,

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Speaker 3: not just a kind of patina of its you know,

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Speaker 3: cultural appropriation or something like. We want you to have

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Speaker 3: a deep sense of this. So we were in those

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Speaker 3: those Holy cities, but we spent a little time in

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Speaker 3: the Jerusalem Museum and I was just I became enamored

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Speaker 3: with these clay bales, these these these little bail bail

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Speaker 3: idols that were in the museum that went back to

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Speaker 3: the time of Elijah, and you know, like, uh, it

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Speaker 3: was just really shocking. And then we ended up in Rome,

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Speaker 3: like I said, and seeing the Renaissance pictures of the

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Speaker 3: Madonna and the child. You know, so Mary holding this baby,

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Speaker 3: and there's just a very different logic at play, like

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Speaker 3: when you look at these fertility gods from the ancient

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Speaker 3: world that they're almost monstrous, they're almost kind of grotesque.

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Speaker 3: There they have you know their private parts are oversized

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Speaker 3: to say that they kind of bring this fertility. And

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Speaker 3: there's a very different logic when you look at Mary

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Speaker 3: and the child, like it is not a kind of

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Speaker 3: monstrous accelerated exponential growth, get more, get more, get more, escalate, escalate,

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Speaker 3: escalate growth. There's a sense that the growth is a

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Speaker 3: deeper into a relationship, but deeper sense of being connected

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Speaker 3: one to another and connected to a God who loves

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Speaker 3: us as a father and a mother. Like there's this

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Speaker 3: deeper sense of of what it means to grow. So

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Speaker 3: I do think the Christian tradition wants us to grow,

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Speaker 3: but it wants us to grow into something, into someone,

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Speaker 3: into being in Christ, and not grow something. And I

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Speaker 3: think the Church is always, or maybe even the Judeo

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Speaker 3: Christian tradition, has always come under prophetic critique when it's

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Speaker 3: been about escalating growth, when it's been about getting more resources,

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Speaker 3: when it's been about getting more people, when it's been

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Speaker 3: about getting more power or significance culturally, that it really

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Speaker 3: does find itself chasing idols in a state of disobedience.

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Speaker 2: Well, and when I think about the purpose of the church,

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Speaker 2: a group of people coming together to worship God, and

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Speaker 2: to grow in community, to ask the questions, to wrestle

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Speaker 2: with the deeper things, and to walk out of it

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Speaker 2: being refined and closer to God. I think when it

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Speaker 2: becomes an idol, when growth becomes an idol, it no

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Speaker 2: longer becomes about the spiritual development and transformation of the individual,

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Speaker 2: the one amongst the ninety nine. And I think that

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Speaker 2: something that burdens my heart in not all churches, because

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Speaker 2: I don't want to put this just on the capital

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Speaker 2: C church and say every church is like this, because

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Speaker 2: that's not true.

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Speaker 1: But I think the.

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Speaker 2: Ones that maybe some of us might be involved in

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Speaker 2: or that are very popularized in the media as well,

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Speaker 2: are these churches where they focus so much on the

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Speaker 2: people in the sense of we need more versus we.

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Speaker 1: Need to go deeper. It's it's an outward.

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Speaker 2: Growth versus like you're saying this inward growth, this true discipleship.

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Speaker 2: And I think because of that, we're seeing such a

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Speaker 2: discipleship problem in the church, where there's a lack of

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Speaker 2: biblical literacy. People can't defend the faith. People end up

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Speaker 2: abandoning the faith because they go through something hard because

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Speaker 2: they think, well, if God is good, you know, and

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Speaker 2: there's just so many problems that arise from just this

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Speaker 2: one idol taking center stage in a church structure or in.

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Speaker 1: What as a priority for a church.

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Speaker 2: Now, I'm not on staff at a church, so I

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Speaker 2: can't speak from that place and be like, well and

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Speaker 2: my church is. I can't do that, But I can

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Speaker 2: only assume that this is what is happening to some churches,

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Speaker 2: just knowing my friends and the different environments they've been

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Speaker 2: on staff, volunteer.

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Speaker 1: Whatever it may be.

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Speaker 2: But I do want to touch on one thing that

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Speaker 2: you mentioned was the ideal, the idea of Bail being

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Speaker 2: this fertility god. But Yahweh and you're write about this

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Speaker 2: in your book, Yahweh.

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Speaker 1: Is not a fertility god.

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Speaker 2: So can you spend some time maybe talking about the

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Speaker 2: contrast between the two, because I think I thought that

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Speaker 2: was very interesting how you painted that out in your book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this is I'm not an Old Testament scholar,

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Speaker 3: but which is okay, yeah, yeah, but Old Testament scholars

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Speaker 3: I mean really raised this fact. I mean, I guess

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Speaker 3: it's a bit debated on is what's going on here,

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Speaker 3: especially when when Elijah kind of shows up on the scene.

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Speaker 3: So after the israel Is divided, and you have a

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Speaker 3: northern kingdom and you have a southern kingdom. So you know,

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Speaker 3: you're thinking generations after Solomon's rule. What's going on here?

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Speaker 3: And I think the consensus seems to be that there's

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Speaker 3: a kind of syncretism going on. There's a kind of

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Speaker 3: mixing of things going on, and so you're mixing this

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Speaker 3: this faith, this Israelite faith of Yahweh, the one who

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Speaker 3: comes from the desert, the one who frees the Israelites

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Speaker 3: from e Egypt, the one who brings life out of death,

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Speaker 3: the one who brings rest to people and makes it,

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Speaker 3: makes these these Israelites no longer slaves but children. And

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Speaker 3: so this is a this is a god who acts

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Speaker 3: as a father, who gives rest to children. This starts

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Speaker 3: to get kind of mixed up with these kind of

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Speaker 3: classic Canaanite fertility gods, which are all about you. It's

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Speaker 3: extracting from us more and more actions, more and more sweat,

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Speaker 3: more and more blood, and then from that gains are

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Speaker 3: supposed to occur. And basically, the big prophetic move that

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Speaker 3: the prophets make at this period is that you can't

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Speaker 3: mix these things up. That Yahweh and bail are not

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Speaker 3: the same. That these are very distinctive ways of acting.

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Speaker 3: And if you you know, if you if you need

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Speaker 3: to see that clearly, I mean, Elijah comes out of

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Speaker 3: the scene in his name pretty much directly means my

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Speaker 3: God is Yahweh alone, Like you know, it's like the

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Speaker 3: whole the whole theme is right there in his name,

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Speaker 3: and it's like you cannot mix these things up, that

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Speaker 3: these are two very different forms of logic that cannot

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Speaker 3: be baked into the same the same cake. And yet

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Speaker 3: Israel has tried. So it becomes the prophet's job to

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Speaker 3: speak against this reality, that that Yahweh is not a god,

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Speaker 3: the God of Israel, is not one that asks for

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Speaker 3: more in wants. Essentially, I mean, what what what Elijah's

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Speaker 3: saying is that we go back to being slaves in Egypt,

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Speaker 3: and how could we do that? That we just have

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Speaker 3: to keep serving the fertility system. And kind of my

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Speaker 3: points as more of a kind of cultural philosopher and

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Speaker 3: a practical theologian is that we do have systems now

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Speaker 3: that don't look anything like these bail systems, but are

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Speaker 3: certain kind of capitalist forms like you were talking about,

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Speaker 3: even with the Internet, where the algorithms are there all

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Speaker 3: the time and we can kind of get a sense

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Speaker 3: of what we're doing. And so that's a big question

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Speaker 3: I think for church leaders of you know, like how

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Speaker 3: what does it mean to live in a culture kind

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Speaker 3: of capitalist culture that asks for more, that asks us

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Speaker 3: to do more? But where does that cross the line

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Speaker 3: and it becomes well, it really becomes the tail wagging

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Speaker 3: the dog, you know, and that we're actually just chasing

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Speaker 3: the resources more than this very different logic of this

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Speaker 3: God of Israel made known in Jesus Christ, who wants

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Speaker 3: us to find to find a deep relationship of communion

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Speaker 3: and not just the optimization of our actions, you know,

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Speaker 3: to become more fit by by extracting more resources and

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Speaker 3: more people and more reach and so on and so on.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. It just makes me think of ritual, I

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Speaker 2: have to do all these things in order to get

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Speaker 2: what I want.

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Speaker 1: Like that's that is essentially what these these gods were for.

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Speaker 2: It was I want these things. I'm going to do

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Speaker 2: these things in order to gain these things. But the

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Speaker 2: Christian relationship with God and even you know, the Hebrew

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Speaker 2: relationship with God, if we're going back to the Old

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Speaker 2: Testament before, you know, which predates Jesus, it was. It

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Speaker 2: was relational, not necessarily transactional. Like, yes, we see when

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Speaker 2: we read the Old Testament that there were blessings and

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Speaker 2: there were curses based on obedience. We do see that,

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't necessarily this thing where it's like I'm

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Speaker 2: disconnected from this God. I'm just doing this thing in

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Speaker 2: order to gain this thing. We as Christians have this deeper, relational,

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Speaker 2: paternal and child like you said, relationship with a God

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Speaker 2: who sees and cares and knows and provides something better

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Speaker 2: than what we are often asking for or expecting or

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Speaker 2: trying to force the outcome of. And it is through

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Speaker 2: actually humbly submitting to him that we can realize, wait,

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Speaker 2: you have the better thing. What I'm trying to manufacture

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Speaker 2: and bring about in my own life actually isn't the

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Speaker 2: better thing. And I think that's just like a big

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Speaker 2: tickaway I even got from reading your book.

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Speaker 1: The more that I just like thought about it.

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Speaker 2: Of just like these systems of worship, if you'll, if

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Speaker 2: if you would even call it that, it's transaction really

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, but worship to our

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Speaker 2: God is so different, it's so different. It's more beautiful

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Speaker 2: it's more real really versus these clay idols that you're

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Speaker 2: talking about that use on the Jerusalem Museum. Like we

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Speaker 2: start a living and breathing God who wants to be

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Speaker 2: in relationship with us. Uh, but kind of speaking to

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Speaker 2: the Old Testament, and I mean even even to the

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Speaker 2: New Testament. And today I noticed there's there's this pattern

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Speaker 2: where in moments of decline in people's lives, is real's lives,

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Speaker 2: you know, God's people kind of become more vulnerable to

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Speaker 2: turning towards idols. And I'm wondering, maybe, just like based

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Speaker 2: off of your research or observation, why do you think

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Speaker 2: it is that in times of decline, line specifically, since

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Speaker 2: we're talking about bail and the God of more, that

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Speaker 2: they turn that people are more inclined to turn away

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Speaker 2: from God and turn towards their idols when God is

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Speaker 2: our provider, when God is so much greater, when God's

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Speaker 2: plans might not be what we expected, but they actually

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Speaker 2: are purposed for something way more fulfilling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I think there's both a kind of sociological

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Speaker 3: answer and a theological one, you know, Like I think sociologically,

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Speaker 3: there's just something about there's something about us and maybe

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Speaker 3: something maybe this is like sociology or religion, like there's

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Speaker 3: a kind of sense where when we lose the Golden era,

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Speaker 3: like you know, like maybe we were gifted with living

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Speaker 3: in the Golden era, but when we're on the downside

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Speaker 3: of that Golden era, we become we become very susceptible

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Speaker 3: the temptation of trying to get back to it. And

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Speaker 3: in many ways, this is what I think, particularly the

401
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Speaker 3: kings of Israel in first and second kings have happened,

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Speaker 3: like they can they can still remember the stories are

403
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Speaker 3: still told about when Israel was great, you know, when

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Speaker 3: when Solomon was you know, the dominant king of the world,

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Speaker 3: and when you know, everything was expanding, and there's a

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Speaker 3: deep sense they want to get back to that. And

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Speaker 3: so when we feel on the downside of what was perceived,

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Speaker 3: whether it was even true or not, what was perceived

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Speaker 3: as like a great past, then we become very susceptible,

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Speaker 3: I think, to idols to get us back to that,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I think we always have to to

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Speaker 3: watch out for that reality. And the theological reason I

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Speaker 3: think is that one of the ways it's hard even

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Speaker 3: when we kind of recognize we're on the downside of

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Speaker 3: a golden era and can kind of feel those temptations.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons it's so hard is to echo

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Speaker 3: Paul here, the apostle Paul here, is because this God

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Speaker 3: moves in very strange ways.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: In First and Second Corinthians, Paul's very clear that this

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Speaker 3: God of Israel may known in the person of Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Christ reveals God's self in crucifixion, in an event that

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Speaker 3: looks like loss, I mean, looks like anything but a

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Speaker 3: return to the golden era. It looks like well it is.

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Speaker 3: It is an absolute scene of death and defeat. And

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Speaker 3: yet from death and defeat comes the most profound transformation

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Speaker 3: that we could even imagine. I mean, like death itself

428
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Speaker 3: becomes overcome with life, that death becomes inhabited by God's

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Speaker 3: very being. In whatever dies, God will bring life to.

430
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Speaker 3: And it's particularly the human spirit in this reality. And

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Speaker 3: so I think that's always hard. And there's a great

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Speaker 3: German theologian who says the theology of the Cross cannot

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Speaker 3: be much loved. And his point is that we need

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Speaker 3: it more than anything, like it is the truth of truths,

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Speaker 3: but we always resist it because we're always lured into

436
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 3: thinking well, maybe we can earn our way, or maybe

437
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 3: we can work just a little harder, or maybe the

438
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 3: reason we're not in the Golden Era, or the reason

439
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 3: we're not happy be or whatever it might be, is

440
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 3: because we just need we just we need to need

441
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 3: another life hack that we can optimize or something, and

442
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 3: that we refuse the gift of God, which is the

443
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,360
Speaker 3: freedom to be in relationship and communion with Him, because

444
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 3: it comes in this absurdity of the crucified Christ, because

445
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 3: it comes in the demand. I mean, what's demanded of

446
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 3: us is not more work, but like you were just saying,

447
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 3: the surrender. But what we have to surrender is our

448
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 3: experiences of death and brokenness and give them to God

449
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 3: to minister new life to us in that. And you know,

450
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 3: there's all sorts of reasons that we resist that that

451
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 3: that's quite difficult that we'd rather I think particularly and

452
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: kind of like globalized cultures, consumer cultures, we feel much

453
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 3: more comfortable denying our death in our death experiences, our

454
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 3: experiences of loss and brokenness. We're kind of trained to

455
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: just keep looking at our Instagram reels and not having

456
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: to actually, you know, just keep distracting ourselves. And yet

457
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 3: I think what we have to do, what is costly here,

458
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 3: is that we have to look at the reality of

459
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 3: our own experiences of death and the reality of the

460
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 3: God who comes to us in the crucified Christ, who

461
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 3: overcomes death with life and the resurrection.

462
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 2: I love everything that you just said, specifically because framing

463
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: it all back to bail and these other false gods

464
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 2: being these gods of fertility. Our God used death in

465
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: order to bring about this message, this transform this transformational

466
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 2: message of real life, real life. So everything you just

467
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 2: said it just made me think of that. I'm like,

468
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: of course our God would do that. Of course our

469
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: God would in the greater scheme of things. When you

470
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: look at the whole meta narrative.

471
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: Of scripture, it's like it's just mind.

472
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: Blowing the little details, how like it even testifies to this,

473
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 2: it even speaks against that, it even crushes the idols

474
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: in this way our God does. But to pivot back

475
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: kind of to the culture of the church and everything,

476
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 2: since that is a big thing that you address in

477
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: your book, I'm sure that there are people who might

478
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 2: be listening today who are thinking, you know, we want

479
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: to see people saved.

480
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: We don't want to see churches fail.

481
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: We do want to see growth, right, And I'm like

482
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: to that, I'm like, yeah, I want.

483
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: To see people saved and set free.

484
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 2: I want to cast my net and hopefully dozens of

485
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: people are in that net that come to know the Lord.

486
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 2: But how do you how do you respond to people

487
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: who have that desire without dismissing it, but making sure

488
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: it is really rooted in the in the ways of

489
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: Christ and in the ways in which He desires versus idolatry.

490
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think our safeguards are you know,

491
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 3: at one levels, he's really pietistic, but it's it fits

492
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 3: the theme we've been talking about, Like the safeguard is

493
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: to look to the person of Jesus Christ. And at

494
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 3: one level that can seem like just a pietistic statement.

495
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 3: That's a nice thing you could put on tea or

496
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: something or wear a bracelet with it, but it really

497
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 3: means something really deep. And one of the things we

498
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 3: see as God has revealed to us in the person

499
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 3: of Jesus Christ is that the way God moves, the

500
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: logic in which the way God moves is a relational one.

501
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: And I think we live in a culture that has

502
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 3: really mastered and you know, we could call this the

503
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 3: epoch of modernity or late modernity. It's really mastered this

504
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 3: ability to instrumentalize everything. And what I mean by that

505
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 3: is that every engagement we have with one another, however

506
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 3: the church, is going to even say the church as

507
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 3: an institution, is going to function the world. The idea

508
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 3: is that every action's got to create a good out

509
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 3: of it. There has to be gains to it. So

510
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: every relationship we have, we're looking for what do we

511
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 3: get out of this? What do we gain out of this?

512
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: What do we produce out of this? And that we

513
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: can't waste anything because we're always kind of looking for

514
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 3: I mean to kind of put this in our language

515
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: like capital gains, what is the what is the what's

516
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 3: the gain? On top of this? And yet I do

517
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 3: think there's a through line within the whole Biblical story,

518
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 3: within the Christian tradition that the relational in and for itself,

519
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: what it means to really share in each other's lives

520
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: for the sake of sharing each other's lives inside the

521
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: confession that Jesus Christ renews and brings life out of death,

522
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 3: as we share in each other's lives for the sake

523
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 3: of sharing each other's lives, being community for the sake

524
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 3: of being community. Then that's what we do, Like we

525
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 3: turn to that reality. I mean you had mentioned earlier

526
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: Jesus Parable where he talks about, you know, the good

527
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: shepherd goes after the one over the ninety nine. Well,

528
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 3: when you think about that in pure economic terms, terrible math,

529
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: Like it's a terrible economic theory, you know, in the

530
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 3: near eas to give up on your ninety nine sheep

531
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: for the one sheep. I mean, we're so kind of

532
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 3: disconnected from the land and from a kind of agrarian

533
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 3: society that we're like, oh, okay, that's that's a that's

534
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 3: a that's a cool thing. But really, I mean, anyone

535
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: who tends sheep on a farm and here's that. I

536
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 3: was like, this is crazy, Like you you you know,

537
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 3: you risk everything for the one. But Jesus is basically

538
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: saying that, like, the accumulation of capital is not as

539
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 3: valuable to me as the relational engagement of love. And

540
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: hence this is why the Christian tradition is always use

541
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 3: this language of father and mother, a brother and sister,

542
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 3: because these are kind of relationships that have their goods,

543
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: not in gains. You know, like if I call you

544
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 3: producer or customer or even you know, like yeah, like

545
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 3: when I call you that, I'm assuming that this is

546
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: about what I have to offer you in a transactional relationship,

547
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 3: not about what it means to just be with and

548
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: for each other. So it really is an emphasis of

549
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 3: being more than doing. And that's really hard for us

550
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: because we're really formed through all our institutions and our

551
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 3: culture to be doers, not beers. And yet this is

552
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 3: this is what you know, the Old Testament prophets in

553
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: this time of really bad kings, which is what First

554
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: in King's about. We get some good kings in there,

555
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: but they're mainly all a bunch of you know, really really.

556
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: Bad examples of what not to do.

557
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: Exactly, yes, really yes, Crappy King after crappy King. And

558
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: you know, in this period, what we're really shown that

559
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 3: the that the kings that are faithful are not the

560
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: ones that are bringing growth over and against growth. They're

561
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: the ones who are returning to the Word of God.

562
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 3: And you know, word has this sense of what it

563
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 3: means to be in relationship, what it means to hear

564
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 3: and to receive a word is a gift. Word can

565
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 3: be a judgment, but it's a judgment that always binds

566
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 3: us one to another. You know, like word is relational

567
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 3: at its core. It's not about using relationships to leverage

568
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: some other ends. It's about really hearing and being with.

569
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: And for that's so good, so good.

570
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: I literally had a list of like twenty questions and

571
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: we can't get through all of them. But I do

572
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: want to end on this one because I know that

573
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: there is so much to learn through reading your book.

574
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: I learned a lot, but I'm wondering what is something

575
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: that you are hoping people unlearn as they read your book,

576
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: because I think that can take a little that can

577
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: be a little harder to implement. Is the unlearning of

578
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: what has been comfortable or what has just been common

579
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: to us in our practice in ministry, in relationship. I mean,

580
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: what's one thing that maybe you can think of that

581
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: we should be unlearning as we read your book.

582
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: I think what it would be. I think I would

583
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 3: be honored if what people started to unlearn was to

584
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 3: just presume all growth is the same. So that I

585
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 3: think what I'm really trying to show from both a

586
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: theological perspective but from a sociological perspective, from a philosophical

587
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 3: perspective that not all growth is the same. So what

588
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 3: do we mean when we say growth, and to say

589
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: to grow into the person of Jesus Christ or to

590
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: grow in the spirit is a different kind of growth

591
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 3: than saying that, you know, than growing my four oh

592
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: one k, you know, or growing my followers on social media.

593
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 3: Those are different kind of logics and not all all

594
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: of them are bad. But if we can get clear

595
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 3: on what we mean by growth, then I think we can.

596
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: We can. We can interrogate the ones that maybe malform

597
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: us and lean into the ones that that form us

598
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: to reflect the love of God in the world.

599
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah, we need we need to really

600
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: define what it means to I want to grow my church,

601
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,719
Speaker 2: grow it in what way? And I think that if

602
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: you're listening today, if you're a pastor, even if you

603
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: were just part of a church community, how do you

604
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: want to be a part of seeing the growth that

605
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: God wants to see within his church, within his people individually,

606
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: even relationally to him and to others, right, you know,

607
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: vertically horizontally. If you guys want to grab a copy

608
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: of Andrew's book is out now. It is available today.

609
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 2: Where can people grab a copy of your book if

610
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: they want to read more and maybe pass it out

611
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: to everyone on their church team.

612
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know I'd be honored by that. But

613
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: here we are with the performative contradiction of all performative

614
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 3: compebations like grow copies of my book, buy more, you

615
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 3: know which we're all. This is the shows how we're

616
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: always in the system. It is always in the system,

617
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: you know where we always have to, you know, find

618
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: ways to do this. So you know, you can go

619
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 3: onto that mammoth that counts everything, Amazon and buy the book,

620
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: or you can go to Baker or my own website

621
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: andrewot dot dot org, and you can you can find

622
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 3: links to it. So yeah, awesome.

623
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: Sweet Well, I'll link that down below for y'all so

624
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: you guys can check it out if you are interested.

625
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: I'm not saying to get it just for the sake

626
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: of the number, as I'm saying, get it for the

627
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: sake of the inward transformation. Andrew, thank you for taking

628
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: the time, first of all, to write it and to

629
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: do the research behind the book that I think just

630
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: really elevates the understanding of the main idea that you

631
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: are communicating in the book, but also thank you for

632
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 2: taking time to be here on the podcast and just

633
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 2: share a little about your book with everyone who's listening.

634
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: If you guys are interested, Like I said, that'll be

635
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: linked down below and I have guests here and episodes

636
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: coming out every single week. So if you are interested

637
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: in diving deeper into the things of scripture, maybe you

638
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: even have a question just about the Bible in general,

639
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: or maybe a season that you are going through. I

640
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: want you to know that you can also directly email

641
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: me at bot and Beloved at gmail dot com.

642
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: It's all spelled out.

643
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: It's just the name of my podcast, bought A and

644
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: d Beloved at gmail dot com, and you can let

645
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: me know what that question is, what that season is,

646
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: what that scripture is. You want me to break down

647
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,479
Speaker 2: and I would love to be a part of your growth,

648
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: your spiritual growth, to see you thrive in who God

649
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: has called and created you to be as His son

650
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: and daughter, but also in whatever vocation it is in

651
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: place that He has placed you in the world. I

652
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: love you guys, thanks for tuning in, and I'll see

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Speaker 2: you here next week for another episode of the Botton

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Speaker 2: Beloved podcast.

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Speaker 1: Bye guys.

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Speaker 2: For more life giving, faith based podcast just like this one,

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Speaker 2: check out lifeaudio dot com, a proud partner of The

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Speaker 2: Bottonbeloved Podcast