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Speaker 1: Life audio tell us what happened with Jeremy Renner.

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Speaker 2: He was crushed by a snowplow. He was close to dead,

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Speaker 2: he reported exiting his body experiencing quote magnificent, exhilarating peace,

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Speaker 2: as he explained, quote I invest into love and my

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Speaker 2: shared relationships that I experience love with because that is

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Speaker 2: the only thing that you take with you. Since the

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Speaker 2: Bible says love is from God, I think it's a

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Speaker 2: reasonable assumption to say this might have been an experience

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Speaker 2: that came from God. For many of us, we don't

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Speaker 2: see or hear these things on a day to day basis,

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Speaker 2: and so we assume they're not happening.

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Speaker 1: Some of the most prominent and influential people in modern

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Speaker 1: times report the kinds of visions we see in the Bible.

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Speaker 1: Highly respected scholars such as Mortimer Adler, famous actors Jeremy

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Speaker 1: Renner and Mark Ruffalo, and deeply influential authors Harriet Beecher

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Speaker 1: Stowe give testimonies of visionary experiences. What do these mean,

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Speaker 1: what do we make of them? And should we accept

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Speaker 1: these accounts or dismiss them? Doctor Steve Miller, a leading

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Speaker 1: scholar on near death experiences, deathbed experiences, and other visionary

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Speaker 1: type experiences. Who is I think my top guest ever

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Speaker 1: on the show in terms of appearances, is back to

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Speaker 1: discuss these accounts. Good to see you, doctor Miller.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be back. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so excited about this topic. Let's jump right in.

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Speaker 1: You've written, or at least writing your fourth book on this,

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Speaker 1: So you have delved into these kind of accounts for

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Speaker 1: years on a scholarly level. Why should we examine the

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Speaker 1: testimonies of respected and prominent modern people who report visions.

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Speaker 2: Sure? Well, my earlier research was mostly dealing with the

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Speaker 2: best studies of such experiences so that we could have

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Speaker 2: a large quantity to look at. But it's very important

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Speaker 2: to look at the individual experience and delve into the

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Speaker 2: people themselves that are claiming to have spiritual experiences. And

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Speaker 2: I'll go back to seventeen hundreds in light in Europe,

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Speaker 2: where the skeptical philosopher David Hume argued in an extraordinarily

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Speaker 2: influential chapter of one of his books. It's in this

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Speaker 2: book called of Miracles, and I'll just quote from him.

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Speaker 2: In fact, my students read this. I have forty students

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Speaker 2: who read this article last week and are commenting I

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Speaker 2: always have in my classes because it was so influential.

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Speaker 2: But here's what Hume said about miracles and any type

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Speaker 2: of spiritual experiences. Quote it forms a strong presumption against

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Speaker 2: all supernatural and miraculous miraculous relations, that they are observed

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Speaker 2: chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations. End quote.

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Speaker 2: But then he expresses himself even more boldly. It's not

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Speaker 2: just chiefly there, but he says, or if a civilized

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Speaker 2: people has ever given admission to any of them, any

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Speaker 2: of these miracles, that people will be found to have

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Speaker 2: received them from ignorant and barbarous ancestors. Then he emphasized

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Speaker 2: in his last sentence, he actually puts it in italics,

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Speaker 2: it is strange that such prodigious events never happen in

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Speaker 2: our days. Now. He was speaking the seventeen hundreds, but

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Speaker 2: many people today are thinking the same way. Some of

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Speaker 2: my students read human I'll say, well, that's true. They

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Speaker 2: may have happened back in biblical times, but they don't

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Speaker 2: happen today. And although Hume never offered any documentation to that,

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Speaker 2: he just said it. For many of us, we don't

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Speaker 2: see or hear these things on a day to day basis,

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Speaker 2: and so we assume they're not happening. So it's important,

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Speaker 2: especially today because in human writings and secular movements such

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Speaker 2: as logical positivism and philosophy or naturalistic reductive materialism and science,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, I think, just stopped talking about

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Speaker 2: this entirely in the nineteen hundreds. Even in the church,

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Speaker 2: we're just kind of embarrassed by the supernatural, wouldn't mention

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Speaker 2: contemporary visions from the pulpit or in our conversations. So

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Speaker 2: basically we're putting Hume to the test here and saying,

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Speaker 2: are there intelligent people in America one of the most

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Speaker 2: advanced scientifically our PhD programs or the envy of the world.

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Speaker 2: Are people still talking about these things today? Respectable people?

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Speaker 2: So that's why we want to get into this.

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Speaker 1: Steve. Just yesterday I interviewed a scholar to Muslims and

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Speaker 1: his family came to faith because his father was tormented

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Speaker 1: by a demon in a country in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: could not get rid of it until he proclaimed the

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Speaker 1: name of Jesus and it transformed him. And I only

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Speaker 1: interviewed him. I had him in my class at Bayola

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Speaker 1: and he looked at the students, He said, how many

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Speaker 1: of you really believe these kind of supernatural experiences happen?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: They do, But his point was outside of the church

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Speaker 1: we dismiss miracles. Hume has a specter that still is

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Speaker 1: influencing academia or anything that smacks of the supernatural. But

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Speaker 1: even within the church, we're often quick to dismiss these

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Speaker 1: kinds of accounts. So that's why we want to discuss it,

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Speaker 1: to simply say, what is happening today? Are there really

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Speaker 1: visionary near death experiences, other seemingly supernatural phenomena happening, and

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Speaker 1: what do we make of them?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: Before we I mean, oh yeah, go.

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Speaker 2: Ahead, let me just throw this in there, I should

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Speaker 2: mention that one response to human is to look at

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Speaker 2: well done studies during our time of people where they

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Speaker 2: interview thousands of people or hundreds at least, and they

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Speaker 2: found that one in four Americans report hearing a voice

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Speaker 2: or seeing a vision in response to prayer. That's one

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Speaker 2: out of four forty three percent. That's almost half of

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Speaker 2: Americans report an inexplicable, inexplicable spiritual experience in which they

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Speaker 2: meet God. Over half report being protected by an angel.

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Speaker 2: Over eighty percent will experience a deathbed vision if some

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Speaker 2: recent research is correct. So this is happening broadly, but

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Speaker 2: we want to actually dig into a few of the

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Speaker 2: actual experiences to see what we can learn from them.

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Speaker 1: We live in this spiritual moment where spiritual things are

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Speaker 1: coming back in that eighty percent stat. You and I

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Speaker 1: did a show in this a number of a month

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Speaker 1: ago that was in an article in the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: a secular publication. So the conversation is shifting here now.

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Speaker 1: I know some people might be thinking, Okay, Steve, you

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Speaker 1: probably have a Pentecostal or charismatic background, so maybe you're

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Speaker 1: promoting a deeper spiritual life where people have regular visionary

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Speaker 1: experiences with God. Is that where you're coming from.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's what C. S. Lewis and mere

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Speaker 2: Christianity would call red herrings that kind of distract us

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Speaker 2: from this issue. Actually, I am not a part of

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Speaker 2: any of those movies. I'm not necessarily against them. I'm

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Speaker 2: not charismatic or Pentecostal, and these people were going to

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Speaker 2: talk about are not people who were seeking a deeper

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Speaker 2: life through meditation and fasting and all these things to

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Speaker 2: lead up to these It's typically one off visions that

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Speaker 2: happen in a person's life that's just distinct from anything

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Speaker 2: they've ever found, and they may come from all kinds

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Speaker 2: of theological or philosophical backgrounds. As we said in our

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Speaker 2: last last interview, many atheists report these. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's important to say that even cessationists today, those who

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Speaker 2: believe that all miracles cease, don't really say all miracles.

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Speaker 2: Most of them would say. What we're trying to say

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Speaker 2: is there's no gift of healing today, or there's no

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Speaker 2: that having a vision doesn't bestow upon you some type

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Speaker 2: of apostolic authority, And that's what they're trying to get

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Speaker 2: away from, rather than saying that visions don't happen. I

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Speaker 2: don't see any biblical evidence that they should have stopped.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're go get some super interesting accounts, But

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Speaker 1: just one more question. Why do you think many Christians

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Speaker 1: and others are just so quick to dismiss modern day

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Speaker 1: visionary type accounts.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it goes back, as I mentioned, to

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Speaker 2: some of these movements of logical positivism reductive materialism, so

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Speaker 2: that we started thinking as a culture that as science

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Speaker 2: was continuing to explain things, that everything would be explained

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Speaker 2: on a naturalistic basis. So we know a lot about

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Speaker 2: psychology today, and so some people would say, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: there's a psychological explanation. And because of that, we hesitate

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Speaker 2: to tell anybody about it. We don't come to church

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Speaker 2: and start telling everyone about our vision. They may think

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Speaker 2: we're crazy, they may think we have some psychological problem,

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Speaker 2: and so we just don't talk about it. I think

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Speaker 2: that's one of the main things. And then theologically, theological

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Speaker 2: liberalism started just moving away from any talk of the miraculous,

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Speaker 2: so that you weren't hearing it in church as much,

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Speaker 2: and even conservatives just weren't talking about it. I think

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Speaker 2: we just kind of assumed that since people didn't talk

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Speaker 2: about it that it wasn't happening. We're I think we're

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Speaker 2: dead wrong. Now that we're doing surveys, we find out

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Speaker 2: that this is a very common experience.

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Speaker 1: I love it. And one of the reasons has always

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Speaker 1: been compelling to me to accept a lot of these

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Speaker 1: accounts is it's not people trying to write books to

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Speaker 1: get famous or make money. Many people are very reluctant

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Speaker 1: to share these stories, which seems to give a certain

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Speaker 1: kind of credibility to it. And they're not looking for visionary,

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Speaker 1: supernatural near death type experiences. It's like their lives are

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Speaker 1: interrupted with this. All right, We've got some fascinating characters here,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I've done some videos like the Top

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Speaker 1: five Verified Near Death Experiences where we go into some depth. Here,

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Speaker 1: we're going to look at a few more accounts. We

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Speaker 1: probably won't go into the depth. What we want people

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Speaker 1: to see is the breadth and just the variety of

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Speaker 1: the kinds of names many people recognize surprisingly reporting near

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Speaker 1: death experiences. Now, Mortimer Adler, I know who he is,

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Speaker 1: hugely influential intellectual. Maybe introduce who he is in case

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Speaker 1: some people don't recognize who he is and what happened

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Speaker 1: to him.

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Speaker 2: Sure, this is a fellow who taught at Columbia University,

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Speaker 2: taught law at University of Chicago. And I'm gonna stick

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Speaker 2: kind of close to my notes. I usually like to

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Speaker 2: visually keep in touch with my audience, but i really

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Speaker 2: want to get the accuracy right on these guys. And

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Speaker 2: I've got the book's here with me. So taught law

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Speaker 2: at University of Chicago, Philosophy of Laws. What he taught

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Speaker 2: he chaired Encyclopedia Britannica's Board of editors for decades and

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Speaker 2: was known with Encyclopedia Britannica as a philosopher at LA

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Speaker 2: he wrote over fifty books. And so this is an

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Speaker 2: incredibly literate person that somebody like David Hume. This guy

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Speaker 2: far exceeded Hume. And what evidence we have of the

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Speaker 2: study that they had done of literature in general, nobody

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Speaker 2: could accuse him of being ignorant and barbarous. He was

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Speaker 2: a towering intellect and he wrote at the age of

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Speaker 2: I believe seventy five a autobiography, and then something weird happened.

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Speaker 2: He lived for fifteen more years, and during that time

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Speaker 2: his life radically changed. This is from his book A

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Speaker 2: Second Look in the Rearview Mirror. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: these are things I'm giving you the documentation so you

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Speaker 2: can look them up and get on your back text

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Speaker 2: and just light up your theological and philosophical pipe and

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Speaker 2: smoke on it for a while. You have to think

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Speaker 2: about these. So he didn't believe when he wrote his

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Speaker 2: first autobiography in a personal God, and so he never

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Speaker 2: really admitted himself in any way spiritually or prayed or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. But after a pastor visited and prayed

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Speaker 2: for him. This is in this book, page two hundred

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Speaker 2: and seventy six. After a pastor visited and prayed for him,

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Speaker 2: he choked up and began to uncontrollably weep, repeating the

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Speaker 2: Lord's Prayer over and over for days on end. For

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Speaker 2: the first time in his life, he actually meant the words,

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Speaker 2: and he says, quote quite suddenly, when I was awake

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Speaker 2: one night, a light dawned on me, and I realized

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Speaker 2: what had happened. Without recognizing it clearly when it first happened,

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Speaker 2: I had been seriously praying to God. End quote. Yet

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Speaker 2: prior to this he would have said confidently that any

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Speaker 2: philosopher who understood God as a philosopher would never worship

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Speaker 2: him or pray to him. He was he believed in

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Speaker 2: an impersonal God. But suddenly, not because of some argument

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Speaker 2: that came to mind, but because of this undeniable experience,

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Speaker 2: he changed. He said he believed in a God quote

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Speaker 2: on whose grace and love I now joyfully rely end quote.

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Speaker 2: So what am I make of an experience like this?

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Speaker 2: I mean, here's a guy who his entire life was

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Speaker 2: devoted to studying great books, great philosophers, writing reflecting a

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Speaker 2: philosopher as at large. He had also had a degree

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Speaker 2: in psychology, so surely he sat back and thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: what psychological reasons could explain this experience I had? But

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Speaker 2: when all said and done, he interpreted himself as being

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Speaker 2: a passive and experiencer of something that impacted him from

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Speaker 2: the other side, which transformed him instantly from being a

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Speaker 2: skeptic to a believer. So he subsequently joined a church

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Speaker 2: began writing on theological themes. A remarkable testimony.

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Speaker 1: That's really incredible. I actually would commend to our audience.

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Speaker 1: His book is one of my all time favorites. The

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Speaker 1: title is how to Read a Book. It changed the

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Speaker 1: way I read poetry versus history, versus law, versus theologylliant

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Speaker 1: scholar at seventy five, has this visionary, seemingly supernatural experience

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Speaker 1: somewhat unexpected. I love that. Now let's move to a

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Speaker 1: more modern day scholar. Those who study resurrection or have

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Speaker 1: followed this channel recognize the name of Dale Allison, who

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Speaker 1: in some ways has been one of the most vocal

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Speaker 1: and smart critics of the resurrection. And although I believe

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Speaker 1: he still rejects the bodily resurrection of Jesus. He believes

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Speaker 1: there is some kind of visionary experience the apostles had,

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Speaker 1: but he personally reports some really fascinating encounters with the supernatural.

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Speaker 1: Who was he give us more context and what happened.

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Speaker 2: Sure, he's a respected writer, scholar, distinguished professor of New

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Speaker 2: Testament at Princeton. And why did he end up there? Well,

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Speaker 2: he credits his own visionary experience as a sixteen year old,

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Speaker 2: which reset the whole course of his life. So I'm

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Speaker 2: quoting from Encountering Mister by Dale Allison, and he puts

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Speaker 2: it out there right out front, pages one to three,

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Speaker 2: because he says, you can't understand my life unless you

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Speaker 2: understand this vision at the age of sixteen. But he said,

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Speaker 2: my meeting with the mysterium fascinosum, which is Latin for

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Speaker 2: like the fascinating, alluring aspect of God. I believe Rudolph

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Speaker 2: Auto spoke of it in that way. He said, my

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Speaker 2: meeting with him in nineteen seventy two was not a

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Speaker 2: parenthetical moment, but rather the existential center of my entire life. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: then I'm a professor at a seminary, not so much

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Speaker 2: because I have the requisite credentials, but because the stars

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Speaker 2: came down one night when I was sixteen years old.

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Speaker 2: End quote. I don't know if I could put it

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Speaker 2: in stronger words. This vision changed this brilliant person's life.

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Speaker 2: He had a lifetime of teaching and study to think

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Speaker 2: about it, and he thought it was something real.

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Speaker 1: Well, he reports at least one or two more in

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Speaker 1: the book and comes to a lot of the same

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Speaker 1: conclusions that you and I do about angelic visitations, about

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Speaker 1: near death experiences. We would differ with him when it's

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Speaker 1: all said and done about the bodily resurrection of Jesus,

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Speaker 1: but he clearly had a what he reports as multiple

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Speaker 1: visionary type experiences that couldn't be put in this secular

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Speaker 1: box which is explained entirely away by science. Before we

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Speaker 1: get to certain actors like Mark Rouffalo and Jeremy Renner,

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Speaker 1: which fascinating account, Steve, I was aware of Jeremy Renner,

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Speaker 1: but did not know that Mark, of course, who plays

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Speaker 1: the Hulk, had an experience. So I can't wait for

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Speaker 1: your thoughts on that. But one more scholar, and in

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Speaker 1: part just to establish that these are not just popular

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Speaker 1: figures but very careful thinkers reporting these experiences. So doctor

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Speaker 1: Hugh Montefiore, who served as a fellow and dean at

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Speaker 1: Cambridge University where he taught. He did some work at

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Speaker 1: Oxford University. Tell us a little bit more about who

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Speaker 1: he is and what he experienced.

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Speaker 2: Sure, he was an honorary fellow at Oxford. I mean

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Speaker 2: he made it as far as you could make it

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Speaker 2: in academia, as far as his scholarship. But again, just

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Speaker 2: like Dala Allison, he traces it back to a vision

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Speaker 2: he had. So it is the book I checked out

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Speaker 2: of the libraries. I can't show it to you, but

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Speaker 2: it's O God. What next? That was an autobiography of

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Speaker 2: his pages one and two. Again starts it off with

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Speaker 2: this vision he had. So interestingly, he grew up Jewish,

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Speaker 2: Jewish family, Jewish relatives. He never attended a Christian church

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Speaker 2: or read the New Testament until his vision at again

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Speaker 2: age sixteen. Magical number there sixteen year olds. Watch out

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Speaker 2: who knows? And he said when he in his vision

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Speaker 2: quote knowing it to be Jesus end quote. These things

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Speaker 2: are self authenticating, kind of like you know, I know

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Speaker 2: that I'm here talking to you right now, and it's

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Speaker 2: more real than a dream that I had last night.

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Speaker 2: And so the degree of reality convinces me that this

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Speaker 2: is reality. Often in these visions and near death and

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Speaker 2: deathbed experiences, they'll say it was as real as us

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Speaker 2: sitting here, or it's even realer than that reality. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's why it's self authenticating. They can't deny

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Speaker 2: that this happened, so it revolutionizes their lives. So Jesus

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Speaker 2: told him to follow me. Quote follow me. Without abandoning

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Speaker 2: his Jewish heritage, he embraced the Christian faith. It is

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Speaker 2: interview with Professor Philip Weebe fifty seven years later, he

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Speaker 2: described his degree of certainty. He said, quote for me,

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Speaker 2: it has total reality end quote. So he talked about

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Speaker 2: as indescribably rich event that filled me afterwards with overpowering joy.

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Speaker 2: I could do no other than to follow those instructions.

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Speaker 2: I found that I had become a Christian as a

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Speaker 2: result of a totally unexpected and most unusual spiritual experience.

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Speaker 2: I was aware of the living Christ and became because

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Speaker 2: of that, I was aware of God in a new way.

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Speaker 2: And he says, quote it is still vivid in my

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Speaker 2: memory nearly sixty years later, and I have to begin

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Speaker 2: this book by writing about it because otherwise the rest

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Speaker 2: of it would make no sense. It shaped the whole

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Speaker 2: future of my life. Wow. Coming from such a great

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Speaker 2: scholar who was a Jew, who's not expecting this? Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not only that he wasn't expecting it. It's

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Speaker 1: even stronger than that this would be what he strongly

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Speaker 1: would not expect. It goes against what he was believing.

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Speaker 1: That's what's so startling about this. The point you made

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Speaker 1: I want to highlight is I haven't had a near

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Speaker 1: death experience or this kind of dramatic visionary experience. I've

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Speaker 1: had a few encounters that I felt like there were

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Speaker 1: supernatural elements present, which is story for another time. But

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Speaker 1: so many these accounts people say it was more real

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Speaker 1: in terms of my experience and the colors and my memories,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't match up with the dream. It was qualitatively different.

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Speaker 1: And the number of accounts is in part what stands

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Speaker 1: out to me about this. Now we're gonna look at

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Speaker 1: some accounts from a Christian scholar, Dallas Willard, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: go to some Marvel Cinematic Universe actors and others, but

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Speaker 1: I do want to stop. I'm really curious, Steve, what

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Speaker 1: do you think these kinds of visions demonstrate evidentially apart

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Speaker 1: from somebody's subjective experience, what do they help demonstrate in

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Speaker 1: your mind?

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Speaker 2: Well, number one, I'm getting I'm getting this from their biographies.

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Speaker 2: These are eyewitness accounts, right, and they have some of

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Speaker 2: the elements that that lawyers in a court of law.

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Speaker 2: It takes seriously when somebody is absolutely sure that they

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Speaker 2: saw this person who committed the murder, instead of just

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Speaker 2: a think it was them or whatever. There's this absolute

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Speaker 2: degree of certainty their respected academics, which we Be Professor

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Speaker 2: Weebe points out. He says, you know, in academia, it's

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Speaker 2: not really popular to talk about these kind of things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, think about the one we just talked about,

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Speaker 2: how he actually had a lot to lose. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this wasn't going to help him get a position at

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Speaker 2: Cambridge University, and it certainly he feared what might happen

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Speaker 2: to his family. They might all turn on him for

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Speaker 2: accepting Jesus. So when you've got a lot to lose

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Speaker 2: in sharing your testimony, that also makes the testimony that

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Speaker 2: much more powerful. And I just say the other thing

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Speaker 2: is that we're giving the individual examples, but when you

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Speaker 2: study the best studies of such experiences, you find that

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Speaker 2: the corroborating evidence of the timing, like when someone just

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Speaker 2: knows of the death of a person from afar distance

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Speaker 2: and they got this vision within twenty four hours of

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Speaker 2: when it actually happened and they weren't expecting it. That

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Speaker 2: when Cambridge scholars studied this, that happened four hundred and

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Speaker 2: forty times as often as you would expect if it

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Speaker 2: were just a chance occurrence. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: reasons to think this is not a hallucination, it's not

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Speaker 2: a normal dream. And these guys were smart enough to

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Speaker 2: sit down and think it through and realize, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I've got to change my life and the light of

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Speaker 2: this vision, because if I deny that, why do I

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Speaker 2: even believe that I'm really here on earth doing these things.

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Speaker 2: It was just that powerful.

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Speaker 1: One point I have to emphasize, as you started by

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Speaker 1: reading Hume from of Miracles, which still shapes the way

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Speaker 1: many people think, and it's used to reject the supernatural

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Speaker 1: and particular the resurrection. And one of his arguments that

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Speaker 1: you just read was that these kinds of miracle claims

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Speaker 1: are by barbarous people, uns educated. So in other words,

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Speaker 1: we can dismiss their accounts so minimally. Minimally, what the

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Speaker 1: shows is that visions are at least a part of

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Speaker 1: the modern day experience that people report, and Hume's argument

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Speaker 1: does not work. These are not barbarous people. There are educated,

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Speaker 1: trained people reporting these experiences. So I think it definitively

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Speaker 1: defeats at least that point that Hume made. Now let's

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Speaker 1: keep going. I want to talk about a Christian scholar,

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Speaker 1: Dallas Willard. By the way, he mentored JP Morland, who

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Speaker 1: is one of my who's done a lot of work

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Speaker 1: on your death experiences. He reported he endorsed your book.

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Speaker 1: He faltered into my office yesterday. We chatted for five years.

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Speaker 1: One of my heroes. But one of the people he

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Speaker 1: would point towards is Dallas Willard, who's probably been one

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Speaker 1: of the most influential Christian writers and thinkers over the

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Speaker 1: past maybe three decades or so. Well, who was he

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Speaker 1: and what experience did he report?

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Speaker 2: Sure, he was teaching near you at for decades. He

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Speaker 2: was teaching at the University of Southern California for really

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Speaker 2: almost fifty years. He taught philosophy there, so very well respected.

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Speaker 2: In the end, he was serving as director of the

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Speaker 2: School of Philosophy there, published over seventy five articles and

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Speaker 2: technical journals and wrote many books. Very influential, very well,

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Speaker 2: but not just influential as an intellectual. He was respected

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Speaker 2: within his own department, within among the Christians that he

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Speaker 2: associated with. This was just a first class person in

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Speaker 2: scholar But a day before his death, and this is

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Speaker 2: quoting from Gary Moon's account Becoming Dallas Willard about Dallas

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Speaker 2: Willard's life, and it's on page two hundred and thirty nine.

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Speaker 2: If you want to research these things, take well known

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Speaker 2: people's biograph he's and flipped to the end and so

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Speaker 2: happy that their death. Or look at the index and

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Speaker 2: look for vision. You'll be shocked at how many people

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Speaker 2: you find. But a day before his death, as his

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Speaker 2: friend Gary Black was there, who was at the bedside,

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Speaker 2: Willard's breathing became faint and Black felt his arm for

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Speaker 2: a pulse at his touch, Willard looked up and said, quote,

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Speaker 2: I need to tell you what is happening so you

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Speaker 2: can be prepared. End quote perfectly lucid. Right, he's not

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Speaker 2: on drugs or something. He's not, you know, like people

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Speaker 2: put them on morphine really heavily he was Lucid Black

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Speaker 2: Reports quote. He started by saying he was in a

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Speaker 2: hallway in between this life and the next. He said

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Speaker 2: that for his entire ministry, he really couldn't quite understand

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Speaker 2: what to believe about the Bible's description of the Great

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Speaker 2: Cloud of witnesses in Hebrews twelve. He tried to understand

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Speaker 2: and believe in this reality during his life. He wanted

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Speaker 2: to believe it, but he didn't quite know what to

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Speaker 2: make of it. But now now, Dallas said, now I do,

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Speaker 2: I really do believe. I know they are here. So

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Speaker 2: he was experiencing two worlds at once, which is the

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Speaker 2: quality of deathbed experiences as people have studied them. In

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Speaker 2: a New York hospice where people are seeing angels over

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Speaker 2: eighty percent of them, if you interview them dying people

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis, they'll start telling you about these experiences.

432
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: With that many, it's almost intrinsic to dying. So he

433
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 2: was experiencing what is commonly experienced at death, a deathbed vision,

434
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: and coming from such an intelligent, respected and trusted person

435
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: who studied all of his life studied philosophy. He understood

436
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: secular philosophy, He understood religious philosophy, and he was a

437
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: trustworthy person. Why on your deathbed would you say, oh,

438
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make up something. I mean, you're trying to

439
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 2: be at your best. You're about to meet God in

440
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: his eyes. You're not going to take something up. And

441
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: he was sure it was happening. It gave him a certainty.

442
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: That's that's unbelievable. Of course, maybe we could come back

443
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: and circle around at this another time. But what naturalists

444
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: are gonna have to do is give some naturalistic explanation.

445
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: It's the brain playing tricks on him. There's some physical

446
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: chemical process trying to calm him when he dies. I mean,

447
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: we're not responding to all the natural you know, rejoined.

448
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 2: We've done that in other other interviews in my earlier books.

449
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I want to I just want to concede

450
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: that we're not responding to those. Now. What we're talking

451
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: about is the breadth and the depth and the quality

452
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: of these accounts that are reported. Now, these next two

453
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: I've been kind of waiting for. I had heard of

454
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: Jeremy Renner's account with the near death experience, which was

455
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: not long ago. I had no idea Mark Ruffalo or Ruffalo.

456
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,239
Speaker 1: I'm actually not sure how to say it. And of

457
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: course Jeremy Renner plays Hawkeye and the Avengers. Mark Ruffalo

458
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: plays the Hulk, So this is near and dear to

459
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: my heart. I don't believe either of them are followers

460
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: of Jesus, So we're talking about a different kind of

461
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: visionary experience than Dallas Willard has. But let's take them

462
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: one by one. Let's start with Mark Ruffalo. What happened?

463
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: Sure, and basically a lot of people have I don't

464
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: know where these people stand with Christ. Actually, I haven't

465
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: researched their life a lot even if I had. Sometimes

466
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 2: we don't know their private thoughts or their private convictions.

467
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: But I think a misunderstanding and a lot of religious

468
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: people's minds is that visions should come at the end

469
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: of a long spiritual experience where you've just gotten so

470
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: close to God that you can just experience Him in

471
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: this way. But actually, if you read through the Bible,

472
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: visions are pretty indiscriminate on whom they come to. You know,

473
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: they'll come to people that are fighting against God or

474
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: secular kings in the Old Testament. Sometimes it's a warning. Sometimes,

475
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: I mean, he wasn't Paul when he had the vision.

476
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: He was soul, he was out to kill Christians, he

477
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: was fighting against God and he gets a vision. Right,

478
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: So this is evidence that God so loved the world,

479
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: not just a bunch of believers, not just a bunch

480
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: of really spiritual people who are meditating, and he reveals

481
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: himself to them. So I think this is just a

482
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: good example. Wherever they stand and wherever they go with

483
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: their lives, that's their choice. But I think it makes

484
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: seekers out of people. So ruffalo. Actually, and I don't

485
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: know how to pronounce some of these names as well.

486
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: I don't hear them on the radio. I just read

487
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: about them. Okay, but he was born in my wife's

488
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: hometown of Kenosha, Wisconsin. Actually, he's a multi talented director writer,

489
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: played diverse roles from the so diverses from The Hulk

490
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: to romantic comedies. Okay, this has a great actor. I

491
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 2: have a ton of respect for great actors, but also

492
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: a writer, director, So he's a respectable person. Also an

493
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: entrepreneur in that he co founded a theatrical group, but

494
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: just a couple of years ago. January twenty twenty four.

495
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: I don't have a book on this, but you could

496
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: google it. Twenty twenty four, CNN reported, Mike Ruffalo or

497
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 2: Ruffalo and just search dream or something with that and

498
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 2: it will come up. So this article reported on his

499
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: seeming vision, which alerted him to a golf ball sized

500
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: tumor on his brain. So he was finished, in the

501
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: midst of finishing a film with Robert Redford when he

502
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: had a vivid dream. Now, some skeptics will surely say, oh,

503
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: wait a minute, you have thousands of dreams, so one

504
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: of them's inevitably going to correspond with reality, and you're

505
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: gonna think that's a miracle. But in this case, he

506
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: distinguishes it from the first from any of his other dreams.

507
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: This is a one to one correspondence, not one out

508
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: of thirty thousand dreams or something. So he said, he said, quote,

509
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: it wasn't like any other dream I've ever had end

510
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: quote quote. It was just like, you have a brain tumor.

511
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: It wasn't even a voice, Ruffalo recalled. It was just

512
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: pure knowledge. You have a brain tumor and you have

513
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 2: to deal with it immediately. And this was not a dream.

514
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: This was something different, something unique that he had never experienced.

515
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: So what does he do. He goes to the doctor,

516
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: he'd had no symptoms of a brain tumor, like great

517
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: headaches or whatever. He insisted to the doctor, even though

518
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: the doctor saw no reason to do it. He insisted,

519
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: I need an X ray. The doctor was so stunned

520
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: to find a large tumor. Unfortunately, the surgery took care

521
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: of it, although he had partial face paralysis for a

522
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: year and was left to this day, as I understand

523
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: with one deaf ear. So this was a powerful So

524
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: in a court of law, it's not just that someone

525
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: gives a testimony, but if you have some type of corroboration,

526
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: like ooh, you got information beforehand on what is going

527
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: to happen, and it happened, that's a corroboration that gives

528
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: us some evidence that, Wow, this must have come from

529
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: somewhere other than his brain, because you don't just make

530
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: up things like this, yeah I think that.

531
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, yeah. What's lasting about this is that it

532
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: can be evidentially checked. Now. Of course, you know, somebody

533
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: could say, well, maybe this is a defense mechanism of

534
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: the brain, alerting you know, the mind that he's got

535
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: this tumor. But then I still positive, go that feels purposeful.

536
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: It feels like there's a goal and an end which

537
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: feels like a mind would do this, and so however

538
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: you look at it, there seems to be intention behind this,

539
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: alerting him of this phenomena. Now, I'm guessing some people

540
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: listening right now on my channel might think, well, Marcus

541
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: said this politically, who's on the left. That is completely

542
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: irrelevant to the conversation we're having.

543
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: Readly, God loves the world.

544
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: God he loves exactly. If anything, it shows that God's

545
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: common and in this case, seemingly supernatural grace is giving

546
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: us more time to repent and more time to follow him.

547
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: He loves all of us. Absolutely fascinating account. I wasn't

548
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: even aware of that, and I'm so glad you tracked

549
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: it down.

550
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: Mark.

551
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: If you're hearing this, mighty chance you'd be up for

552
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: a conversation.

553
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: Thanks for sharing it.

554
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: I would love to talk and hear more about your account.

555
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: Would be phenomenal. Okay, let's shift to another avenger, not

556
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: as strong as the Hulk, but more accurate, Hawkeye. Tell

557
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: us what happened with Jeremy Renner.

558
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: Sure he's currently playing on the Mayor of Kingston series.

559
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: He was reported just last year. Both of these are current.

560
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: This is twenty twenty five. If you want to search

561
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 2: Jeremy Renner in Google CNN twenty twenty five near death experience,

562
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: you ought to be able to pull that up reported

563
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: in CNN. It sounds like a classic near death experience.

564
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 2: So I've studied these common It's not just like a

565
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: one off thing that this guy's reporting it. He reported exiting.

566
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: What happened is he had he was crushed by a

567
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: snowplow and he during this time he was he was

568
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: close to dead. His reported He reported exiting his body

569
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: experiencing quote magnificent, exhilarating peace. This was not a normal

570
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: Oh maybe I'll be okay. It was exhilarating, It was magnificent.

571
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: It was something fantastic. He didn't want to return to

572
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: his body and was quite upset to find himself back

573
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: in his body. I think he said something like when

574
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: he saw his body and he was going back into it,

575
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: he said, this is gonna hurt, he said. But the

576
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,959
Speaker 2: self authenticating nature of the NDE was shown, I think

577
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 2: by its impact on his life. Now, generally, in visions,

578
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: we're not getting a bunch of theology. We're just getting

579
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: some general just like the apostle Paul. He didn't get

580
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: the gospel in his vision. But I think God doesn't

581
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: want to bypass our seeking, and some of these people

582
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: may search for years, hopefully because they realize this is important.

583
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: But the self authenticating nature I think is in the

584
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 2: impact on his life, as he explained, quote, I invest

585
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: into love and my shared relationships that I experience love

586
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 2: with because that is the only thing that you take

587
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: with you end quote. All of a sudden, I mean,

588
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: this reinforces what Jesus said when he was asked what's

589
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: the most important commandment? I mean, if you miss out

590
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 2: on everything else, don't miss out on love. Jesus said,

591
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: love God, love people. That's the most important commandment. And

592
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: since the Bible says love is from God, I think

593
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: it's a reasonable assumption to say this might have been

594
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: an experience that came from God. I don't see any

595
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: point of the devil giving somebody a vision and their

596
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: whole outcome is to be a more loving person. So

597
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: I think again to say this is the number one

598
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: priority in life many people. I mean, you look at

599
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: the Olympics. Some of these people, I mean, they're just

600
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 2: infatuated with the idea of being number one and being successful.

601
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: I mean, some have great motives. I'm sure of serving

602
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: the people that have helped them so far and all.

603
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: But there are many motives we can have. There are

604
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: many priorities that people have to get ahead, to make

605
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: more money, to succeed in school and all this. He

606
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: comes back and says, it's love. It's about love. I

607
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 2: think that's a profound reality. That's counterculture in a lot

608
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: of ways among a lot of people. But that was

609
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: his outcome.

610
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: It's really remarkable that while his body is crushed and

611
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: there's trauma going on, that he feels peace. That's so

612
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: counter intuitive and suggests we are more than just our bodies.

613
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: But he's seen his body. This is a kind of

614
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: argument for the soul, for consciousness apart from the body.

615
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: So minimally, these accounts are challenging naturalism. But I think

616
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: you're right. If it's about love and loving people, which

617
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: is a common phenomena that near death experiencers will report,

618
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: it does raise the next question, what is it about

619
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: love that's so meaningful? Where does love come from? Why

620
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: should I love somebody? And of course that's where we

621
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: think the honest seeker is going to be led to

622
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: the person of Jesus all right.

623
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: And often these people are having life reviews to where

624
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 2: they say, oh, my goodness, and they've seen deceased relatives,

625
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: which which not in his case necessarily. I don't know

626
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: if he saw deceased relatives or not, but you see,

627
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: this is common in near death experiences. So people imply

628
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: from that that number one there isn't after life. Number two,

629
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: my life matters, and I will be judged for these things,

630
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: as Jesus said, everybody will appear before the judgment seat

631
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: of Christ.

632
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: So the next one takes us back a few years

633
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: and is one I was not aware of one of

634
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: the most influential, certainly American authors of all time, Harriet

635
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: beecher Stowe, who wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. What does she

636
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: report in terms of a vision?

637
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: Well, first, I think I'd like to thank you for

638
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: a detour into the Marvel universe. I know you were

639
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: dying to get there, So just a little thanks before

640
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 2: we move on.

641
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: Oh man, I love it. You can give me a

642
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: hard time anytime you are. You are welcome.

643
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 2: That's fun. So okay, let's get into Uncle Tom's Cabin.

644
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: Harriet beecher Stowe wrote many books. A bright person was

645
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: a school teacher, and so you've probably all read about

646
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: her in high school and college and your history texts

647
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: and civil rights movements and all these things. In fact,

648
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: her book sold so many copies and was so influential

649
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: prior to the Civil War that when Abraham Lincoln met

650
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: her personally, he said, quote, so you're the little woman

651
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 2: who wrote the book that made this big war end quote.

652
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 2: And to this day people cite her book as one

653
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: of the motivators for the Civil War. But what you

654
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: probably don't know about her book is that there's a

655
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 2: climactic scene where a slave is flogged to death, and

656
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: that is kind of the most significant, heartrending parts of

657
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: the book. And she said, where did her idea come from?

658
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: She said, the climactic scene in the book came and

659
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: her to her in a powerful, vivid vision while she

660
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: was taking communion at a college chapel. Quote for the

661
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: rest of her life. And I'm quoting from more than Conquerors,

662
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: this is what I studied.

663
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: Well.

664
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: Woodbridge was teaching at Trinity when I was there. He's

665
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: a very respected scholar. He edited this work. He talks

666
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 2: about Harriet Beecher Stowe here for the rest of her life.

667
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: She was convinced that the Almighty had reached out to her,

668
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: that the inspiration had been God's, not her own. So

669
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 2: she hurried home to write it down, read her description

670
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: of the vision to her children, and they all wept together.

671
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: So here's a classic something that's really impacted our culture.

672
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 2: A person who's very well respected, and she's saying, no,

673
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: I didn't just get an ideal while I was sitting

674
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: at church. This was a vivid vision that I couldn't deny.

675
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: I'm an author, and so sometimes I have these ideas

676
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: that pop into my mind, but I wouldn't describe it

677
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: that way that goes beyond in kind of a supernatural

678
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: kind of experience. And I would say, given the influence

679
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: of her book, I would certainly interpret that one. And

680
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: I'm reading into this, of course as a message from

681
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: God to help end the evils of slavery, but just

682
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: to know what lurks behind that I think is really

683
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: really powerful. And by the way, you've done a service here,

684
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody else has done this, getting

685
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: all these biographies, skipping to the end, finding these stories

686
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: of people. It's just fascinating to see him strung together.

687
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 1: So let's skip to a respected scientist, doctor Michael. I'm

688
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: probably gonna butcher's name Guiland Guhlin. He's from Harvard, he

689
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: was a physics professor. What account does he report?

690
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 2: Sure, he's got degrees in physics, math, and astronomy from

691
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: Cornell and UCLA. He rejected atheism along the line and

692
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 2: embraced Christianity really due to his long quest for truth

693
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 2: and looking into the relevant evidence. But later he's entertained

694
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: some spiritual doubts because he and his wife couldn't have

695
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: a child and they had prayed about it, prayed about it,

696
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: you know how we get about things like that. It's

697
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 2: like God didn't ask my prayer. Is he really there?

698
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 2: Does he really love me? And he's going through those

699
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 2: doubts and so in his book Believing is Seeing, starting

700
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: on page one point eighty four, he writes, but on

701
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: that late fall afternoon in England, my worldview exploded. Now again,

702
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: these are dramatic expressions by people who are scientific, who

703
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: are scholarly, who are used to putting things in very

704
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: low key ways. Okay, my worldview exploded quote, and it

705
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: has never shrunk back to what it was as I

706
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 2: fell into bed. I suddenly beheld the image of a large,

707
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: translucent human figure. His giant arms caught and embraced me.

708
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 2: I felt he in italics the word felt, I felt

709
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: the embrace. In other words, this was something empirical right.

710
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: In other words, what I experienced was both visual and tactile.

711
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 2: A split second later, as my head was about to

712
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: hit the pillow, this is the part of the experience

713
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: that affected me the most. I came cheek to cheek

714
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: with the human like figure. I felt it. It was

715
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: warm and soft. The unexpected electrifying sensation, the abrupt and

716
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: seismic spiritual awareness. Words really failed me here. Whatever it

717
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 2: was that happened to be at that moment is indescribable

718
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: end quote. And almost immediately the thoughts people in circumstances

719
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: in my life underwent a sea of change. One of

720
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: his changes was this a later moment, he and his

721
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: wife Laurel suddenly knew they should adopt a child, and

722
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: they indeed adopted a four year old boy and raised

723
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: him into adulthood. But this is a scientist experiencing something

724
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: that in near death experience is one of the main

725
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 2: characteristics is ineffability. You just can't fully put it into words.

726
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: So it's not like a normal dream that you can

727
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: tell people almost exactly what you experienced in the dream.

728
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 2: It's something that seemed to come from somewhere else because

729
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: you can't even explain it outside of the vision. And

730
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: this is a scientist who spent his whole life sifting

731
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 2: hearsay and unevidenced things from evidenced things, and it changed

732
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 2: his life.

733
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: I also want to highlight if you're a scientists and

734
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: you're teaching or trained at places like Harvard and UCLA

735
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: and these leading universities, these are just couched in a

736
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: naturalistic framework. So again, it's just so the opposite of

737
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: what you would expect given his training and way of

738
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: seeing the world. That maybe lends some credibility to it.

739
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: So all right, let's keep going. We're looking at that

740
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: just kind of the variety of these kind of experiences,

741
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: and I want people to get the whole kind of

742
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: big picture here. Let's jump down to a scholar named

743
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: Jay Gresham Machen and for those who are in kind

744
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: of New Testament studies or Church history will recognize him

745
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: as a brilliant thinker written some fascinating books in the

746
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: early twentieth century critiquing kind of liberal Christianity, and some

747
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: other works that he wrote. But tell us what happened

748
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: with him personally.

749
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 2: Sure, I think it's good to bring a reformed Calvinistic

750
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 2: person into it because we tend to respect people that

751
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: are coming from our theological perspective. And some think that, oh, well,

752
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: reformed people wouldn't have experiences like that or whatever, but

753
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 2: they do. I think it's actually pronounced Macon. I have

754
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: actually heard that one in the past, probably called Machen

755
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: m A c ch e n. So he was a

756
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: Princeton professor of New Testament, founder of Westminster Seminary, and

757
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: he reported vision of heaven the day before his death.

758
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: These are some deathbed experiences he said, quote it was glorious.

759
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 2: It was glorious. So he had a vision of heaven again.

760
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 2: Deathbed experiences we see them everywhere. This is from Stonehouse's

761
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: Biography of Making, pages five oh seven, five oh eight.

762
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 2: And then we could go to C. S. Lewis. Yeah,

763
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: let's I want to cover him. So he was the

764
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: influential literary giant and Christian apologist who taught English literature

765
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: at both Oxford and Cambridge. He was in a nursing

766
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 2: home in his final months recovering. He was in a coma.

767
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: He had had a heart attack. And then he revives

768
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: and he becomes very lucive. So quote and this is

769
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: from Downing's book biography called The Most Reluctant Convent, pages

770
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 2: twenty seven and twenty eight. Suddenly he pulled himself up

771
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: and stared intently across the room. Hooper saw nothing but

772
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: felt Jack. C. S Lewis was called Jack by his

773
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 2: friends must have seen something or someone quote very great

774
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: and beautiful end quote near the near at hand. For

775
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: there was a rapturous expression on his face, unlike anything

776
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 2: Hooper had seen before. Jack kept on looking and repeated

777
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 2: to himself several times quote, oh, I never imagined, I

778
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: never imagined. End quote. The joyous expression remained on his

779
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: features as he fell back onto his pillows. Wow. Now C.

780
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: S Lewis had an imagination, he did. That's a fact.

781
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: He says. This is something more fabulous than Narnia or

782
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: anything else I ever imagined. Oh my goodness, I think

783
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: that's quite powerful.

784
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: Oxford, Cambridge. I mean, even if people reject his worldview,

785
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: he is one of the highest level thinkers and influencers

786
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: in the twentieth century. So I love that account. By

787
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: the way, I think last time I talked about him,

788
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: I called it what did I just say Machen before

789
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: I called it Macon and mocking. I think I've mispronounced

790
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: his name every single time. I got more emails about that,

791
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: So grace from our listeners on that one. My bad, exactly,

792
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: But don't miss the accounts that we're giving. That's what's

793
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: so compelling. And I love that you brought in the

794
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: example of somebody who's reformed, because the next scar I

795
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: want to turn to, and then I want to ask

796
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: if there's some athletes that you have. The next scholar

797
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: is not reformed. He is more Pentecostal by his very nature.

798
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: But Craig Keener is hands down one of the leading

799
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: New Testament scholars today. One of the kindest, most gentle

800
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: people you'll ever meet. He's brilliant. This morning I was

801
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: reading his two volume commentary on John in my Bible

802
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: stadny time I'm working through the Gospel of John. He

803
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: reports a pretty fascinating experience. Tell us about it.

804
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 2: Sure, so this was actually coming from an interview that

805
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: you had with him, And so you tell me if

806
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: I've got it right. But I was so impressed when

807
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: he wrote his book on miracles. Some people called it,

808
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 2: from a scholarly perspective, majestic, and I thought, I kind

809
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: of rolled my eyes, thought, yeah, majestic whatever. And I

810
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 2: got into it and started seeing that sometimes three fourths

811
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: of a page was dedicated to the footnotes of documentation

812
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: of miracles and things. I said, yes, this majestic after

813
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: a while, that he is just a consummate scholar. I

814
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: actually saw him in Boston the Evangelical Theological Philosophical Society meetings.

815
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: Shook his hand and I told the guy next to me,

816
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 2: I may never watch this hand again. He's just a

817
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: powerful but just a wonderful person. So from your interview,

818
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: he told how as a young person he was a

819
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 2: smug atheist who thought all Christians were stupid, yet his

820
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 2: worldview offered no meaning in life. So this is as

821
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: a young person, probably in his late teens. He doesn't

822
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: he doesn't give a time exactly, but I took it

823
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: that it was his late teams and he had he

824
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: said this sort of a mental prayer. I don't think

825
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 2: he set it outside, but he said, quote, if there's

826
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 2: something infinite out there, that also happens to be caring.

827
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 2: Please show me. Now, that's a good, good, good prayer

828
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: for any of us seekers. I remember I used to

829
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 2: say kind of sai at some points of doubt and God,

830
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: if you're there, just you know, reveal yourself some way. Now.

831
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: He thought it would come in the form of some

832
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 2: argument if it happened, but it came in a different form.

833
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 2: So one day after he was arguing with some Christians

834
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 2: who seemed to not have any apologetics training at all.

835
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: It wasn't very deep, but the Holy Spirit just took control.

836
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: He said. I was so this is quoting. I was

837
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed with conviction from the Holy Spirit. For the

838
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: next hour or so, I just finally collapsed to my knees.

839
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: God was in the room with me. There is no

840
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: way I could deny his presence end quote. That's what

841
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 2: I mean by self authenticate. There was no way he

842
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 2: could deny it. Quote again, that wasn't the kind of

843
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: experience for which I'd been asking, but it was more real,

844
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 2: he said, I take it. He wasn't asking for a

845
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: visionary experience. So you responded, quote, Okay, God, I don't

846
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: understand how Jesus dying and rising from the dead makes

847
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: me right with you. But if that's what you're saying,

848
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 2: I believe it. I don't know how to be made

849
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 2: right with you, but if you want me to do it,

850
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 2: you have to do it for me yourself. End quote.

851
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, I felt something rushing through my

852
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: body I had never felt before. End quote. He jumped

853
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: to his feet and says, So this is an adult

854
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: who's been through a lifetime of research and study. Reflecting

855
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: back in saying this was so powerful it redirected his

856
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 2: entire life, he said, quote, wow, I always said these

857
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 2: Christians are foolish because they don't live like they believe

858
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 2: there's a God. If I believe there's a God, I

859
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: would give him everything. End quote. I don't understand. Quote again,

860
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: I don't understand what just happened to me, but I

861
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: believe there's a God now, and I'm going to give

862
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 2: God my life. So end quote. He follows through that commitment,

863
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: dedicates himself to religious studies throughout his life till he

864
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 2: earned his PhD. Now teaches New Testament at Asbury's Seminary,

865
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 2: has authored twenty five books in about one hundred academic articles.

866
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 2: So changed his life one hundred and eighty degrees. Boom,

867
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 2: there's his life.

868
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: A couple things about his story. Number one is these

869
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: people were witnessing to him and like mocking him exactly

870
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,720
Speaker 1: what you shouldn't do as kind of a Christian evangelist.

871
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: God still used it in his life, but he was

872
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: an atheist. Sometimes people just this week I was speaking

873
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: someone's like, when your dad was an atheist before he

874
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: investigated Christian was like, no, he was an agnostic. Keener

875
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 1: was an atheist. So no miracles, no supernatural no aim angels,

876
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: no demons, no spiritual realm. And then he's just encountered

877
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,720
Speaker 1: and humbled by this, transformed his life and has become

878
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: kind of charismatic and Pentecostal in the sense that he

879
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: believes these gifts are present and active in the world today.

880
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: But he's such a careful scholar for him to include

881
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: this as well should minimally give people pause and say,

882
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 1: wait a minute, am I too quickly dismissing these now

883
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: Before we go to the last thing, I want to

884
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: invite those who are listening with us to do this.

885
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: Steve has gathered some of these accounts together by picking

886
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: up biographies. You'd be willing to help us out in

887
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: two ways. Number One, if you had a kind of

888
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: visionary experience and are willing to share it, please put

889
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: it in the comments. One of the reasons Steve is

890
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: my one of my favorite guests is he goes through

891
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: and reads and comments and literally does his best to

892
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: minister to people as he can personally. It's a remarkable

893
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: ministry that he has in into different videos and interviews

894
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: that we've done. So if you include a story there

895
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: would help help us. Second, if you have books behind

896
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: us in your house, pick it up, like Steve said,

897
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: and look see if there's a word vision, look at

898
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: the end, and if there is an account, please tell

899
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: us about it. We want more accounts like this, And

900
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: maybe you have books or stories we don't know, tell us,

901
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: and then we could come back and report even more

902
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: of these. All right, last realm, just recently, of course,

903
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 1: is the Super Bowl finished up the professional football season.

904
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: And while there's a lot of conversation about the halftime

905
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: show and the unbalanced victory, that is not the time here.

906
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: Are there any respected individuals in the broader football realm

907
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: that you've been able to track down that report these

908
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: kind of visionary experiences.

909
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 2: So arguably the most highly respected football coach of all time,

910
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: both on and off the field, would be Vince Lombardi.

911
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: And that's why you hear them say, Okay, what do

912
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 2: they get at the end if you win the Super Bowl?

913
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,919
Speaker 2: The Vince Lombardi Trophy. Okay, this is Vince Lombardi. So

914
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 2: I have biographies of just a wide variety of people.

915
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 2: So I looked, and sure enough there was at his death,

916
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: two different respected players had visions right when he was dying,

917
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 2: some type of I would say, a visionary experience that

918
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: woke them up and said at he was declared dead

919
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 2: at seven twelve am one morning, Paul Hornung, who happened

920
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 2: to be in nearby College Park, was jolted awake with

921
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 2: an odd sensation quote. It was freaky, he said. Later,

922
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 2: I woke up and said to myself, we lost him.

923
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 2: We lost him. Then Tom Brown, who was in Minnesota,

924
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 2: totally different state, bolted out of bed at the same

925
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: moment with a similar foreboting. I looked to the clock.

926
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: It was six point thirty. All I could think of

927
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 2: was Lombardy, Just Lombardi. That's all I could see. Now

928
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 2: I'm quoting from the mean This is a Pulitzer Prize

929
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: winning biography of Lombardy. You can look at it on

930
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 2: let's see page four hundred and ninety eight. Those people

931
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: I mentioned you might not be familiar with. Paul Horning

932
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: graduated from Notre Dame with a degree in business, was

933
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 2: highly respected. Lombardi once said he was the greatest player

934
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 2: I ever coached. Won the Heisman Trophy that is in

935
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame. Tom Brown, who also had woke

936
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 2: up with that, played both baseball and football for the

937
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 2: University of Maryland, went on to play Major League Baseball

938
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 2: and professional football. They independently. Once says he was jolted,

939
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: the the other one bolted. Wow. Now I would think

940
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 2: these are just one off experiences, except that precisely the

941
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 2: type thing that when it was studied at the University

942
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 2: of Cambridge. William James was a part of that study

943
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: of crisis apparitions. They studied like seventeen thousand people around Cambridge,

944
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: Harvard around these were the highest probably degreed places in

945
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: most of the world. And what they found was again

946
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, that these crisis apparitions, these people

947
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: that just had a vision or just a sudden urge

948
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 2: to know that somebody had died that they didn't even

949
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: know was sick. Maybe did this happened way too often

950
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: for chance to explain it?

951
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: You know, Steve, One that just came to my mind

952
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: while you were saying this is I think it was

953
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 1: two seasons ago Tamorrow Hamlin, the safety from the buff Bills,

954
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: who just had that, I mean harrowing collapse in the

955
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: middle of the field, middle of the game. They stopped

956
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: the game. I remember reading accounts of kind of a

957
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: near death experience, and I just pulled it up right

958
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: now about he was baptized a couple of days ago.

959
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: I haven't read the details on his story. I don't

960
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: want to speak out of turn, but I'm just pointing

961
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: out that conversations about these, even just in the football realm,

962
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: is far more common than many people would indicate. So

963
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 1: if somebody's tracked to that story, give us a couple

964
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: reliable links that we could look into as well, that

965
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: would be a fascinating one, just to add to your

966
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: account that this is far more common. And certainly, if

967
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: that's true, he was not planning on that, given the

968
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: hit that he took on the field, No chance he

969
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: was expecting that all right, Steve, there are so many

970
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 1: more accounts that we could talk about. I literally love

971
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: this stuff. It's so interesting. But maybe tell us you've

972
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: been studying these accounts and dozens and dozens more. What

973
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: are some of your practical takeaways from this interview in

974
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: this topic?

975
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: And number one, we're trying to get this conversation started.

976
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 2: There's tons of great research out there on near death,

977
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: deathbed experiences, visions. People have done dissertations, like on visitations

978
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 2: with angels. For some reason, the Christian world has been

979
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 2: kind of slow to get this into our apologetic literature

980
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 2: as evidence. And this is really important because if we

981
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 2: can establish, which I think these well do, that these

982
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 2: things are still happening today to scientifically minded people. Doesn't

983
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 2: matter whether you're an atheist or a Christian or whatever.

984
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,959
Speaker 2: People are having these experiences that needs to be thought about.

985
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 2: We want to get the conversation started, and for me personally,

986
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 2: I would just say that this has been This has

987
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 2: put the icing on my theological and philosophical cake. I

988
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 2: just when I was going through my times of doubting

989
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 2: and questioning through my college years, going through academias studying

990
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: apologetic studying atheists studying Christians, reading both sides of things.

991
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 2: When I was going through this, I really didn't see

992
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 2: anything on this. Now, what I studied were the historical

993
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 2: foundations of the faith, like the New Testament, the archaeology,

994
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 2: the why should I trust these documents? The quality of

995
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 2: the New Testament documents, including the Resurrection. That was a

996
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 2: big part of my study, and I'm forever grateful that

997
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 2: I have that foundation in my background. But what this

998
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 2: has done is now that I study the best studies

999
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: on visions, near death, deathbed experiences, all these things, and

1000
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: I start telling people around me what I'm studying. I

1001
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 2: have people coming to me that are that are successful businessmen,

1002
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: that are just guys that I trust and know, and

1003
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: they're telling me about their visions of Jesus. It's like

1004
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 2: if I were to ask them, what do you think

1005
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: did Jesus rise from the dead, they said, well, yeah,

1006
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 2: I just talked to him, you know. I mean, in

1007
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 2: this it was a one of a kind vision. It's

1008
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 2: not like they're every day having these things. But it

1009
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 2: just makes the reality so much greater when you see

1010
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: that people are experiencing these things today. And I just

1011
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: want to encourage people make this a point of conversation. Now,

1012
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 2: what you're going to find is we've pulled out some

1013
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 2: of the more reliable type documented visions. Remember proverbs where

1014
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 2: Solomon says, don't be naive, right, we don't need to

1015
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 2: just accept the naive believes everything. So we don't just

1016
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 2: believe every account out there. If they're visions from God,

1017
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 2: they're probably also visions and I believe this is true

1018
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 2: that are from malevolent spiritual sources out there. There are

1019
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 2: people out there that are lying to get a buck.

1020
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 2: And I can tell you right now to relieve your mind.

1021
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 2: Any these books that I've written on near death and

1022
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 2: deathbed experiences, uh, I'll just I'll just give them to

1023
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 2: you as a free PDF. I didn't write these things

1024
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 2: to make money. I wrote them because what could be

1025
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 2: more important to find than finding out if there's really

1026
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 2: a guy and there's really an eternity out there? So this, uh,

1027
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 2: this changed my life. But look at look at first

1028
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 2: Thessalonians five. The apostle Paul warns us. He says, test everything,

1029
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 2: be thinkers. David Hume claimed that there aren't any miracles

1030
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 2: going on in scientific and advanced times, but he never

1031
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 2: documented any of it. Uh, I think it's time for people,

1032
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 2: like some scientists were doing during Hume's time, actually investigate

1033
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 2: the miracles and and see what's going on because they're

1034
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 2: all around us. It's changed my life and I just

1035
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 2: don't have any more doubts, Sean. I mean I always

1036
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 2: I could get the evidence for the resurrection of the

1037
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 2: New Testament up to about a ninety five percent. But

1038
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 2: then when I saw people experiencing God and Jesus and

1039
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 2: miracles today, that just topped it off. I'm not really

1040
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 2: struggling with doubt anymore.

1041
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 1: Oh, I so love that step in the past. You've

1042
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: given out your email. But let me ask you this.

1043
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: I'm asking you this live. What if I create a

1044
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: site and we just put the PDFs on there so

1045
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 1: people can download it so you don't get baraged with

1046
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of personal emails. Would that be easier or

1047
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: do you want, like I can make it Sean mc

1048
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: dot org slash Afterlife and people could just download them

1049
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: right there. Or do you want to give out your email?

1050
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: You make the call?

1051
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: Uh for now j Steve Miller at gmail dot com. Uh,

1052
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 2: email me and I can send it to you. I

1053
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 2: like hearing from people, and but let's consider that I

1054
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 2: want to talk talk to my wife about it first

1055
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 2: and make sure this is a good idea. So h

1056
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 2: but that sounds great. But you know when I hear

1057
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 2: when I'm in a hospital and I talk to a

1058
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 2: nurse and she tells me about an extraordinary visionary experience

1059
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 2: she saw somebody dying, it sends chills down my spine

1060
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 2: and it makes the hair on your arm raise. I

1061
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 2: think that was the power that we saw in the

1062
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 2: New Testament that I'd kind of lost in my life,

1063
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 2: and now I feel like I have that hair raising

1064
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 2: on your arms, chill down your spine. I think that's

1065
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 2: what when he talked about signs and wonders, that's the

1066
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 2: wonder part of it. Here's something that you're not expecting

1067
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 2: in the natural course of things, and when it happens,

1068
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 2: it impacts us, and we have to sit down and

1069
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 2: think about it and say what does this mean? If

1070
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: we're really living in a very spiritual world. It impacts

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01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 2: our lives, It changes us.

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01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:57,919
Speaker 1: Steve, I love that you ended there because I'm guessing

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01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: there's some people going, Okay, I'm intrigued interested, I'll want

1074
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: the books, but I want to go further. I finally

1075
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: got a class that we're gonna co teaching. You're gonna

1076
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 1: lead most of it at Tabot School Theology at Biola

1077
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: May twelfth and thirteenth, and people can come audit this

1078
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 1: class if they want to, or if people are in

1079
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 1: our Master's in Apologetics program, take it as an elective.

1080
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: You've heard me talk about the apologetics program here for

1081
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: a while, if you've thought, you know what, maybe I'll

1082
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 1: do it, maybe not, There is no excuse. Now We're

1083
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: gonna have doctor Steve Miller in person teaching all day

1084
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 1: Tuesday on this I'll be there as well, hanging out,

1085
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 1: answering questions, doing one kind of lecture as well. And

1086
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: then Wednesday morning, we're gonna have you in studio. All

1087
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: of our interviews have been by a distance. We're gonna

1088
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: have you in the Talbot studio and we're gonna record,

1089
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 1: and students will be their live watching, and then we'll

1090
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 1: stop and they'll get to ask a bunch of questions.

1091
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: And the two topics. One will be when children experience

1092
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: near death experiences, what happens? How evidently significant is this?

1093
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: What are the best evidenced accounts? And then second objections

1094
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 1: to this, like biblical concerns about near death experiences. Does

1095
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: this teach reincarnation? What about universalism? You're going to teach

1096
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: that there. It's a part of what's called the Anchored Conference,

1097
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: which is a three day conference at Biola, and that

1098
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 1: Wednesday night, I'm having a public conversation with an atheist

1099
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: friend of mine. So if you are still with us

1100
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: on this video and you're like, I want to go

1101
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: deeper natural life apologetics, I'm considering this master's program. Perfect

1102
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: time to sign up right now. One thing you could

1103
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: do is you could just email me through my site

1104
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: and I will forward it to the team. If you're

1105
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: like I have questions about this conference, I have questions

1106
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 1: about what it would take to audit this, So through

1107
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: my site Sean McDonald dot org, email me that I'll

1108
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 1: get to my team and we will send this on

1109
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 1: so people can respond specifically to you. Or you can

1110
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: just search Talbot Biola Apologetics Masters and it will pop

1111
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: up and you can join us and sign up for

1112
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: the class right there. We would love to have you,

1113
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: And while you're at it, make sure you click subscribe

1114
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: and join us because we've got some other shows coming

1115
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: up on Islam. We have shows coming up on a

1116
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 1: range of topics, including a new book out on some

1117
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 1: of the theology of Michael Heiser, and we're going to

1118
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: do a live Q and a taking your questions on that.

1119
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 1: Won't want to miss it. Make sure you hits subscribe

1120
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 1: and Steve again, always enjoy these Thank you for preparing,

1121
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for being just such a gracious and thoughtful guest.

1122
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me.

1123
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1124
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 1: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1125
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 1: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge

1126
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

1127
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

1128
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show,

1129
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: brought to you by Talbot School of Theotology at Biola University,

1130
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 1: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

1131
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 1: spiritual Formation, marriage and Family, Bible and so much more.

1132
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,560
Speaker 1: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach,

1133
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 1: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

1134
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 1: you when the next episode drops.