1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. He called to make a 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: difference in mental health. Columbia International University offers graduate counseling 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: degrees that combine professional excellence with Biblical truth from associates. 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Through doctoral program, CiU prepares you to bring healing and 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: wholeness to others through a biblically based framework of compassion 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: and care. Whether it's their k CREP accredited Masters in 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: Clinical Counseling or their PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: You'll learn from experience faculty who integrate faith with real 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: world application to cultivate a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: and train. Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: CiU's counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: and spiritually. Visit CiU dot edu to learn more about 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: making a difference in mental health through christ centered education. 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, welcome back to this 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm 23 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: joined again by doctor med Matthew. He is a professor 24 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: of counselor education at Columbia International University, and we're going 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: to be talking continuing our conversation about faith and mental help, 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about going to introduce the 27 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: idea of a stool here, a three legged stool, and 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the social leg today. There's 29 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: two other legs, the existential leg and the embodied leg. 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: So the social leg really refers to what's going on 31 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: around us. The existential leg is more like what do 32 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: we how do we understand what's going on around us 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: sort of this world of symbolic meaning. And then the 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: embodied leg is how how are we actually physically present 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: within the realm of reality in which we exist. So 36 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: those are the three legs in the stool, and we're 37 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: going to focus in on the social leg this time. 38 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 1: We got into this a little bit in the previous episode, 39 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: but I think there's definitely more to be said. So 40 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: when we think about society, we've come out of some 41 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: really challenging social spaces at this point, and I, well, 42 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: it's simple to start with COVID. I'll go back one 43 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: more step. Uh, maybe three or four more steps I remember, uh. 44 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: And this will be an odd reference. But the first 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: time I ever watched Born on the fourth of July, 46 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: Tom Cruise, you're movie, yeah, Oliver. 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 48 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: So he's a Vietnam vet that comes back from Vietnam, 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: and you just watch how he's this you know, sort 50 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: of happy go lucky high school kid who joins the military, 51 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: ends up getting his legs blown off in Vietnam War, 52 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: and then comes back and has just a host of 53 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: problems coming back into society, and you watch how the 54 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: various people within the society sort of shun him. It's 55 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: not just about his legs, it's about how society is 56 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: viewing the people who are coming back from the war. 57 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: And he has this terrible time just coming back having 58 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: seen what he's seen and then experiencing what he's experiencing, 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: and it creates this like Vortex that he has a 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: lot of trouble getting out of right. It's I just 61 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: remember visibly watching that movie and going, wow, that's really difficult. 62 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: Like what else was this guy supposed to do? Is 63 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: almost what I left the movie with. And then as 64 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: you watch some of these other social things going on, 65 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: we could look at nine to eleven, we could look 66 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: at COVID, we could look, you know, some of the 67 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: bigger catastrophes within our society, as well as just some 68 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: of the technological changes, which I'm sure we'll get into. 69 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: We can begin to understand and get a picture. Sure, 70 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I think through some of those movies right when you 71 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: sit back and you're like, oh, I get it, society 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: actually does have an effect on our mental sciety and 73 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: where we are, how we see the world, because it 74 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: can start to feel like it's all against you. Yeah, 75 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: so I'll leave it there and let you comment. 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: Then yeah, yeah, I'll take your bar on the furth 77 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: of July and I'll raise you a Truman Show, because 78 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: that's whats go through my head as you were saying that, 79 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: as another movie that I think exemplified exactly what you 80 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: were talking about, Like and in that context, he has 81 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: a society, right. He has neighbors, Hey, good morning, good 82 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: to see. He has a job place, he has family 83 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: as a wife, he has coworkers, he has all of 84 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: these things that you would say are needed for human flourishing. 85 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 3: And yet something's about, right. 86 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 2: Like there's a knowledge that there's this is not the 87 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: way it's supposed to be. And it was such a 88 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: powerful film to highlight that we can we can create 89 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: all the models but not have all the essentials of 90 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: what we need for human flourishing, right, And there's something 91 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: about that that I think. I mean, that movie was 92 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: in itself, both those movies around decades ago, and you 93 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: look at them now in light of the current contexts 94 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: that we're in. Yeah, wow, there are somewhat prophetic in 95 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: terms of some of the things that they were talking 96 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: about then. And what we're experiencing now is continued isolation 97 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: in the midst of all of this technology, in the 98 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: midst of all this community. We're not isolated in that sense, 99 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: but we're more isolated than we ever have been. And 100 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: how we've really distorted the ideas of what community means 101 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: and the implications of that are coming to bear, right. 102 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: The reaping is coming to bear in light of, at 103 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: least within my area of mental health, what we're seeing 104 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: in terms of the rise of anxiety and depression, and 105 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: I think what we're seeing societ idoly as well, and 106 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: just the loss of meaning and hope. What we were 107 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: talking about about in our last episode is that it's 108 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: not just affecting individual flourishing, it's it's affecting societal flourishing 109 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: as well. 110 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: So what is you know? I read Bowling Alone here recently, 111 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: kind of as we were prepping for these episodes. I've 112 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: I've always found a book compelling, so I went back 113 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: to it and just reread it. I reread some of 114 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: Stanley Hauerwaff's stuff, which he does sort of a narrative 115 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: based ethic kind of idea, And what what I got 116 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: out of both of those was just being social, right, 117 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: having a narrative with other people, a shared understanding of 118 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: how the world works in a sense that you're in 119 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: it together. Whatever that together means. It mayn't even have 120 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: to mean, like, you know, in the same way that 121 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: I'm in life together with my wife, right, it doesn't 122 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: have to mean that, right, but it means, you know, 123 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: maybe we're going to decompress over, you know, you know, 124 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: go out and golf and we're going to decompress together, right, 125 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: Like it can be that sort of in it together 126 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: kind of feel. But it just seems like what you 127 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: see in the social realm is that you have to 128 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: have pockets of people who are resonating with you about 129 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: what's wrong in the world and willing to sort of 130 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a gripe session with you. 131 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: You've also got to have people who are challenging your 132 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: perspective of the world and saying it's not as bad 133 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: as you're making it out to be, or it's bad 134 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: in a different way than you're making it out to be, right, 135 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: sort of shift your perspective. And then you have to 136 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: have these folks who are just sort of there, not 137 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: necessarily providing you with answers, but there to get you 138 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: through whatever problem comes, whether that's just through being with 139 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: you or silent or what have you. And so, yeah, 140 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: as I was reading through that literature and some of 141 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: the other things, those are the three big categories I 142 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: came up with sort of the buddy right, yeah, just 143 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: agree with almost everything you say. It's going to be 144 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: the perception challenger. And then it's going to be just 145 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: that sort of central comfort. 146 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 147 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: And and interestingly enough, what we do really well in 148 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: our especially in our technological constructs, because we do the 149 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: buddy really well, Buddy really well. The buddy is there 150 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: for you in a heartbeat, right, I mean, the algorithms 151 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: they know how to work well, and they find us 152 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: the communities that validate our gripes give us more of 153 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: a platform to then talk about. 154 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 3: Our own gripes. 155 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: And it just it's the feedback loop, right, And we 156 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: know that's that's exactly why it works, is because the 157 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: it's not a free service, that the commodity of our 158 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: attention is what they're seeking to engage with, right, And 159 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 2: it works, and we get that little dopamine hit when 160 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: we see that little rage bait cantinued to move. The 161 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: buddy is there, present and all so supportive. It's the 162 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: others that critique that comforter that I don't have space for. 163 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: I don't have room for. I don't really want to 164 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: hear their voice because it just feels good just to 165 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: be enraged over the ills of society. And we know 166 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: that's on every side of the political social spectrum, whatever 167 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: the issue is, and that that's part of I mean, 168 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: we've talked about this before with someone like Jonathan Height's research. 169 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: We have essentially raised a whole generation in doing this right. 170 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: When the rise of both smartphones and social media came, 171 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: we did two things to our kids. We said, one, 172 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: we need to keep you safe from the outside. You know, 173 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: stranger danger, White vans and are looking to give candy 174 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 2: to kids like we got to keep you. Even though 175 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: the research is very clear there's no such thing as 176 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 2: stranger danger. 177 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: The idea of. 178 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: Kids being kidnapped was more of a publicity on milk 179 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: cartons than anything else. Say what didn't happen? It did, 180 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: but the actuality of it happening statistically was so so 181 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: much less than the reality. So we took kids away 182 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: from outside, from free play, from engagement with others, those 183 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 2: other critiques, those other comforters that are so needed, And 184 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: we gave them this device and said you have no 185 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: limits on this. So we're gonna limit you from the 186 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: outside and we're not gonna give you any limits on 187 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: this device. And I love your analogia because it removed 188 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 2: those critiques, those friends of mine that said, Ben, that's dumb, 189 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: what are you doing it idiot. Don't don't do that. Like, 190 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 2: those are good buddies, friends that I need in my life. 191 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 2: And I just kind of developed a whole system, and 192 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: we've raised the generation that is, as Jonathan hed set, 193 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: is now the most anxious generation ever. And as we 194 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: know in research, he's not just making correlational arguments, he's 195 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 2: making causal links. Yes, that the decrease of outside engagement 196 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: and community engagement and the increase of utilization of social 197 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: media through smartphones has only had a causal effect in 198 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: terms of the most anxious generation we've ever seen in 199 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: our society today. 200 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: I haven't seen a ton of research on this, but 201 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: I would say two things. Number One, I like Jonathan 202 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: HiT's research. I think he's really right about something, or 203 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: at least onto something when it comes to those things. 204 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: But I wonder if there's a step before it that 205 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: we haven't really looked at enough, which is the ability 206 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: to distance ourselves. So again, you know, I sort of 207 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: think back to my life in a small town, right, 208 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: and maybe growing up in a city this would be 209 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: totally different. But in a small town, you know, I 210 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: grew up in the same church and we would never 211 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: really have thought about switching churches. You just stayed in 212 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: that church and it didn't matter who you were having 213 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: problems with, because dang it, you were Lutheran Church Missouri, syented, 214 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: and this is the one in town, and that's the 215 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: one you're going to. Like, you're not going to drive 216 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: thirty miles to the next church over in another town. 217 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: You're just not going to do that. And so you 218 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: you learn to deal with what you have and whatever 219 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: other problems that emerges. Is not an ideal. I'm not 220 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: painting in utopia here, right. You know, whatever gossip and 221 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: backbiting and all that kind of stuff happens, you're ultimately 222 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: dealing with it. And when someone needs help, you're not 223 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: celebrating it, right like, oh, finally they got their comeuppins. 224 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: Right Like, even if you say that, you also go 225 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: over to their house and help them. 226 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, right. 227 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: There's a deeper community element, whereas now it feels like 228 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: we not only have the Internet, which allows us to 229 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: interact with whoever we want, but we've also decoupled ourselves 230 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: from who we interact with on a more or less 231 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: regular basis. It's an effort to stay in one place 232 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: because if you don't like something, you can just roll. 233 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: And it's very easy for us to you that nobody 234 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: because in part, I think, because nobody expects you to stay. Yeah. 235 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the commercialization right of our communities, if not church, 236 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: just in general, that works well if I if I 237 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: go to a restaurant, I get bad service, I get 238 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: a bad mail, I'm taking my business elsewhere. I think 239 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: I have every right and responsibility to, as it were, 240 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: support a capitalistic model. I want the I want the 241 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: good businesses to earn my dollars. 242 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: Right. 243 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 244 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: But when we kind of transfer that mindset over into 245 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: something like church life, I really didn't like that sermon. 246 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: You know music, you know it's not doing it for me, 247 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: Or I have an issue with this person, I'll just 248 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: go to the next church down the street. I'll find 249 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: a church that kind of just settles with my own 250 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: commodification of what I want. 251 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: Man. That that works really well with restaurants, not so 252 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 3: great with churches. 253 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: Well there, it just feels like to me, there's a 254 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: way we denormalize a lot of these things in our lives. 255 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: So when my wife and I were looking for a house, 256 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: we were moved down to a follon Alois. We're looking 257 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: for a house. We went to one of these. It's 258 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: like a subdivision. I don't know what they'd call it, 259 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, but they have like your house, and then 260 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: there's a community gym and there's usually a church in 261 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: the subdivision, and there's like a store, and there's a 262 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: little market area. And the whole time I'm sitting there 263 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: thinking this is some sort of weird cult, right, like 264 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: what is happening? I don't understand that's why we have 265 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: all of this stuff here, like like it feels so insular, 266 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: it feels so you know. I mean, those are the 267 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: things that were going through my head right now. There 268 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: were a lot of reasons we didn't move there, none 269 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: of which had to do with me feeling like it 270 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: was a cult. And ultimately I was thinking to myself, 271 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: it's probably not a cult, Like it's recapturing something that's 272 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,479 Speaker 1: been lost, an attempt to recapture something that's been lost, 273 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: And I didn't I feel like it's weird now, yeah, like. 274 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: Right, and we've so normalized it in a way that 275 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: it's have to go back. 276 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 3: To it is like what are these people doing? 277 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: Right? Like why you want me to interact with my 278 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: neighbors are supposed to just live in the house, like, right, 279 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: I don't understand what's happening. 280 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 3: No, I fully. 281 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: I mean that the first house my wife and I got, 282 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: our our drive our driveway went to the garage in 283 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: the back, and none of our neighbors had fences because 284 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: one of those old neighborhoods old houses, Yeah. 285 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: And none of them had fences. 286 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: And so every time I came home, I I actually 287 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: had to see my neighbors before I saw my wife 288 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: and kids. Yeah, And I remember thinking, like, I'll be honest, 289 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 2: that was not intentional on my part. I'd love to 290 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: say I was some super spiritual person like, oh well, 291 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 2: connect with my now, but God impressed upon me, don't 292 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: waste this opportunity that when I would drive up, I'd 293 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: see Tom on his back porch, I see, I'd see 294 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: Miss Connelly over on the side. 295 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: I'd see Jamie, mister Jamie. 296 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: And his family over in the other neighborhood, and I'd 297 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: have to engage with them before I just kind of 298 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: closed the garage door. I mean it was even a 299 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: detached garage, so I literally had to like outside, That's 300 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: just not a reality for most of our neighborhood. It's 301 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: weird to be able to connect with others. But it's 302 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: in those communities where and I think this is the myth, 303 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: maybe particularly to this issue we were talking about before. 304 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: My identity is not just individually constructed. 305 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: Right. 306 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: We'd like to think I'm my own man, I make 307 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 2: my own story, and that's a very maybe enlightened way 308 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: of thinking, right, the individualistic ability to kind of define myself. 309 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: But it's identity is is is not just invented internally. 310 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: It's invented communally and ultimately from God in the context 311 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: of community, right the imago day. And what that means, 312 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: I think is so implicated to the to the triune 313 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 2: God himself. A God who is community creates humans who 314 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: of necessity must be in community. The one thing that's 315 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: not good that man should be alone before the fall, right, 316 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: And how that then is is a reflection of the 317 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: communal God is a desire of man that the further 318 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: we get away from that, actually, I think the further 319 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: we get away from identity and meaning and purpose, which 320 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 2: contributes then to this loss of hope and despair. 321 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 3: That we were talking about before. 322 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: Right. It's it's a good point, I mean, because I 323 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: think even in an even in a society that highlights 324 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: self sufficiency, that encourages you to you know, quote unquote 325 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: be your own man or develop your own personal identity 326 00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: kind of idea. You're always doing that within whether that 327 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: those structures are more active or more passive, great point, 328 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: you're always doing it within a context. It's never divorced 329 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: from what's going on around you in society and culture. 330 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: And so if I want to be a you know, 331 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: a hermit and live in my basement and just do 332 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: zoom meetings and never interact with the outside world, I 333 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: can do that. But I can only do that because 334 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: there's somebody out there who's created these platforms that are 335 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: keeping them up. And so what we tend to forget. 336 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: I think maybe this is maybe this is one of 337 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: those differences. You know. I always go back to the 338 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: little House on the Prairie because I just think it 339 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: illustrates like community really well. You know, like you're you're 340 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: sort of dependent on your neighbors for help, Like everybody 341 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 1: tends to pitch in and you're not going anywhere, right. 342 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: Travel is hard, right, so it's not cool, it's not 343 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: fun to travel. So you're just kind of there with 344 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: these people, and it doesn't matter whether they're good, bad, ugly, 345 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter. Like, these are your people, right, 346 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: and there's a you know, you know who's milling the wood, 347 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: you know who's selling the goods of the mercantile. You 348 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: know who's going to come out and deliver your baby. 349 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: Like you know these people, they have faces, they have bodies, 350 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: like you interact with them. This is your society. When 351 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: we move into a technological world, those people don't go away. Yeah, 352 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: they're just distance. They're like a step back mediated and 353 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: then they become essentially anonymous, Like we're on the riverside 354 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: right now, you know, unless I trust the website and 355 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: the wonderful guy that pops up to represent wiver Riverside 356 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: on the front page. You know, I've never met him. 357 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure he's a wonderful guy. Do I know that 358 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: he's the one who did all the coding? I don't. Yeah, right, 359 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: he's These people are anonymous to us, but they're not gone. Yeah, 360 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: And I think that distance creates a different sort of 361 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: perception that we can form our identities alone, when the 362 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: reality is we just simply can't. 363 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's such a good way of saying the perception, right, 364 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: even though we've become and I think we're going to 365 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: talk more about this disembodied. The actual physicality of community 366 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: is part of the importance of community. I can't do 367 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: that with everyone, And again to underground, thankful that I 368 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: can have connection with people even when the physicality. 369 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 3: Is not there. Right. 370 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: I remember as a little kid my parents yelling into 371 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: the phone to make calls to India because they'd have 372 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: to yell on there and for it to be even 373 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: hurt as a whisper on their other end. Comparatively to now, 374 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: my mom picked up her phone and with the press 375 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 2: of one button gets high definition four K video of 376 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 2: her sister in Malaysia right at any time. 377 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 3: It's incredible. I'm so famble. 378 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 2: So we're not light heights in thinking that technology is 379 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: this evil thing that we need to do away with, 380 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: and yet we also I love the way that you 381 00:20:54,520 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: said it creates this perception, this mindset that that we 382 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: we are individualistic, that because I can't interact with that 383 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: other person in the totality of who they are, I 384 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: can see, I can hear you, but not having the 385 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: physical presence that I think is so part again of 386 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: what it means to be communally engaged with each other. 387 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: It's not only do I derive that meaning, but meaning 388 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: is also that that that dignity of the amalgamay needs recognition, 389 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: it needs support from the community that is socially affirmed. 390 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: That it's it's useful, it's respected, it's necessary. That's not 391 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 2: impossible in a technological construct, but it's done better in 392 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: a physical, embodied context. And so I don't want to 393 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 2: get rid of this, but I that needs to be 394 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: the This needs to be the norm. The physical needs 395 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 2: to be the norm, not this. 396 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think that you bring up a good 397 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: point about the dignity. One of the things that I 398 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: find interesting about the dignity of being made in God's 399 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: image is that number one, it's it's often referenced, like 400 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: I can remember, just even as far back as Joe 401 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: Biden referenced, you know, people being made in the image 402 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: of God, right, And so when we but usually when 403 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: we reference it, what we're really talking about is in 404 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: a non religious context, politically and socially, when we reference 405 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: the dignity that is inherent in the image of God, 406 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: what we're really saying most of the time is hey 407 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: live and let live, right, Like this person is deserving 408 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: of making their own choices, and you should leave them 409 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: alone so they can do so. Yeah, we've we've individualized, 410 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: we've adamized of that dignity, right, And I think what 411 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: we haven't done. The flip side, which I think connects 412 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: with some of the things that Jonathan Height is talking about, 413 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: is that for Christians, when we read the Bible and 414 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: we see that we're made in the image of God, 415 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: we're not just seeing dignity. We're also seeing obligation. In 416 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: other words, there's a way for us to dignify others 417 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: right or strip them of their dignity, and there's a 418 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: way for us to dignify ourselves and strip ourselves of 419 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: that dignity. And so it sort of works in this 420 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: two way fashion. And so when we think about the 421 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: identity within society, we're in this constant negotiation of when 422 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: is society trying to strip me of my dignity by 423 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: affirming it right and saying do whatever you want to do, 424 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: you be, you go go in your best life whatever 425 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: it is right and giving no other guidance other than 426 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: just go live your best life right. Personal office in autonomy, 427 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: yeah exactly, versus you know, sort of what we often 428 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: think of is this sort of more oppressive, you know, 429 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: authoritarianism that says, in order to live your best life, 430 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: you must boom boom boom boom. 431 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 3: Right. 432 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: And it seems to me that it is somewhere here 433 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: in the middle that we that we come to grips 434 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: with that that our dignity is expressed best within a 435 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: set of constraints I believe. I mean, I would say, 436 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: I know those beliefs come out of scripture, right, and 437 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: so within that set of constraints, that's where our best 438 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: life is lived, if we want to phrase it that way. 439 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: But those are the constraints that we need. It can't 440 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: just be this sort of openness to say, James become 441 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: whoever you would like to become, because that's not gonna 442 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: go well for me. 443 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: No, And that's such a great point that to the 444 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: to the has d A. Carson talk about the intolerance 445 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 2: of tolerance? Right, The one thing you can't do today 446 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: is tell anyone that they're wrong. 447 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 3: Right. 448 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 2: Tolerance used to mean I disagree with your point, but 449 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: we're gonna live in harmony with each other. That's not 450 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: what tolerance means anymore. Tolerance now means you must accept 451 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: dissenting opinions and to do let's then that labels you 452 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: as whatever phobia you want to attach to that accordingly, 453 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 2: and we in a postmodern epistemology, we've so transformed that 454 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: that sense of dignity of self right individuality becomes the priority. 455 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: And yet the whole whole idea is that again, I 456 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 2: have to have a community that helps both affirm the 457 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 2: good but also challenges those areas that I need to 458 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: be challenged, that that my own status recognition in of 459 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: myselfs is faulty. They're called my blind spots because I'm 460 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: blind to them, right, which is why I need others. 461 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 2: I was mentioning this to one of my classes. The 462 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: other we were looking through Ephesians chapter six. This great 463 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,719 Speaker 2: passion I remember as a kid, right, the the helmet 464 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: of salvation, the breastplate of righteous. 465 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: As a little kid, we have like all the pieces 466 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: we'd put on. We're like, yeah, we're gonna fight. 467 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: Right exactly exactly, and obviously there's much to be said 468 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: about that. And I made reference how I tried to 469 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: remind the students, Okay, now who's this written to? And 470 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: someone you could see one of my students like, oh, 471 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: it's written to the church at Ephesus. It's not written 472 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: to Fred or Sally at Ephesus. It's written to the church. 473 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: And the only way that the Armor of God works 474 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 2: is if it's done in community. That's not what I 475 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: grew up with in Sunday school. God blessed my son's 476 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: school teacher. But I was always told it was such 477 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: an individualistic fight against the powers of darkness. 478 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 3: I'm part of it. 479 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: But it only works if I mean, even the imagery 480 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 2: that Paul is probably pulling from in the ancient earies, 481 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 2: the Roman cohorts right of the shields locking together the 482 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: side and above, it only works when you're with others. 483 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: To see them just happened just last Thursday, to see 484 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: them go, oh, we fight together, to hear them articulate 485 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 2: that that system that is needed for us to engage 486 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: in the battle, because you're right, we do live within constraints. 487 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: I think that's part of Paul's argument. And Ephesians is 488 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: what the Gospel then defines, how that implicates itself in 489 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 2: these communities coming together, and how the powers of Satan 490 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: and others are going to fight against that. So we 491 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: fight together because that's what the Gospel did. It gives 492 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 2: us this new identity that is not just individual, it's 493 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: not apart from me, but it's more than just me. 494 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it And I think that's interesting, especially at the 495 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: end of Ephesians, which arguably talks more than any other 496 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: book about the Jews and the Gentiles coming together and 497 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: how those different community things should happen. And you know, 498 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 1: if you think about the flow of that book, chapter 499 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: five begins with that sort of submit to one another. 500 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: Doesn't begin there, but it has that crescendo in the 501 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 1: first section where hey submit to one another. And then 502 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: you are going through these differing relationships that you have 503 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: in your life. Yeah, that's been a wife, parent child, 504 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: master servant. Yea master servant. And so these are relational dynamics, 505 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: and Paul has things to say to each person within 506 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: those relationships in order to manage the roles that they're in. 507 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: And so if your a husband, here's how you're supposed 508 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: to act towards your wife. If your a wife, here's 509 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: how you're supposed to act towards your husband, father son, 510 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: you know, or parent child, like same with master servant. 511 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: These things happen within a community. Yeah, and I think that, 512 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: you know, if we broaden this out and we say, well, 513 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: what the what does it look like for the church 514 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: to confer this sort of dignity on the people who 515 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: are coming to it. I think Number one, a lot 516 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: of churches focused on community, and I think that's an 517 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: important aspect of this. But I also think that the 518 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: community sometimes is lacking in identity. 519 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 3: Now. 520 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: In other words, it's just more of a gathering of folk, right, 521 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: almost like what might happen if you went to a 522 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: rock concert or something thing. Right, you might have a 523 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,239 Speaker 1: casual conversation with a person next to you, but at 524 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: the end of the day, you're going home by yourself. Right, 525 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: this is not your new best friend, probably, And so 526 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: I think there has to be this sort of identity 527 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: infusion within the community of the church to help members 528 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: recognize that they are part of the body of Christ. 529 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: They're members of the body of Christ. And I don't 530 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: know how to exactly get around that, you know how 531 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: to get to that, but I think that, to me 532 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: is where the church can best begin to confer that dignity. 533 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: In addition to just I'm big on restoring the teaching office. 534 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I went through Catechism, and I thought that 535 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: was really great, And I think there's something to the 536 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: church providing the constraints for the way that we read 537 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: the Word of God and the way we understand it 538 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: and live it out. That's really crucial. And so I 539 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: think helping us create appropriate boundaries and understand how to 540 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: navigate within those bounds, which is also a crucial aspect 541 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: of what the church could do. 542 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 3: But no, I love that. Yeah, I. 543 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: Often wear two hats as an educator and clinician. I 544 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: try to provide space that kind of unpacks the personal 545 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 2: narratives experience that provides them. But I've been in enough 546 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: pastoral ministry and context within the local church. There needs 547 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: to be a proclamation as well of truth, not just 548 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: creating a space, which I think is also needed. We 549 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: need to have community and provide space and accountability for that. 550 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: There needs to be a as we're thus saith the 551 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: Lord kind of proclamation of truth that needs to be 552 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 2: part of that, so that when we're in those community spaces, 553 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: we're articulating that there is a as Jude says, right 554 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: contend earnestly for the faith once delivered. We need to 555 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 2: be willing to say that This is actually what helps 556 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: give meaning and purpose, especially in the despair of that 557 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 2: is just so pressing around individually and systemically all around us. 558 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 2: We have this, this greater story. This is how Keller 559 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 2: talks about it. We need to provide a better story 560 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: because I mean I talk about my Muslim friends or 561 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: my Hindu friends. They have community, They have really good communities. 562 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: They have strong marriages, and they're good parents, and they're 563 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: the contributing citizens within their community. In that sense, they 564 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: have all the things they need. And yet they don't 565 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: have a greater story. They don't have a better story. 566 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: They have a story. But I think the way that 567 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: Keller framed it for me that was so helpful. We 568 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 2: need to present a better story. It's not just that 569 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 2: it helps here, but how does this help holistically those 570 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 2: those ways in which we've been disengaged, not just from 571 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: others in our environment, but ultimately from God. Because my 572 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 2: Muslim friends are living their best life, my Hindu friends 573 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,959 Speaker 2: are having a great time. My atheist friends even can 574 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: find community. Like you said, they go to a lockouts, 575 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: are to have a good old time, right, Yeah, they 576 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 2: can have that, and yet there's something bigger, There's something 577 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: better that I think starts with that proclamation that then 578 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: is lived out in the context of community. 579 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 3: We need both those realities to be sure. 580 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: I think the last thing I'll just raise and maybe 581 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: we can talk about it a little more as we 582 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: get into the next episode, which we'll talk a little 583 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: bit more about anxiety and then we'll get into the 584 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: existential leg But there's this interesting theory by a gentleman 585 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,239 Speaker 1: named Nungian who he talks about value collapse, and it's 586 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: really pertinent for what we're going through right now. Essentially, 587 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: what value collapse is, It's like, we value connection with 588 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: other people, right, and so we say, well, how will 589 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: we measure our connection with other people? And then you 590 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: start saying, well, you know what could really, you know, 591 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: measure this this connection I have with other people is 592 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: the total number of followers I have on my a 593 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: TikTok account and the number of likes I get, and 594 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: I'll know that I'm really impacting them when they share 595 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: my content. And so you pull these simplified metrics away 596 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: from connection with people, and now all of a sudden, 597 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: all you're really focused on is these three simplified metrics, 598 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: and you forget it becomes the proxy, the representation really, 599 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: I mean this is a Boudaryard simulator or simulacra and simulation. Right. 600 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: He talks about the map becoming the terrain, right, so 601 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: you forget about the ground and you're just so focused 602 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: on the map. And that's essentially what this does. This 603 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: value collapse basically says I do value this connection, but 604 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: I don't really get anything out of this connection. I 605 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: do get something out of the number of followers I have, 606 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: the number of likes, I get, the number of shares 607 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: I get, and something out of that. But this connection, 608 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: it's too it doesn't pay off as quick yeah, right, 609 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: And so we start to diss ourselves from substance and 610 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: start to live in this world of just strict representation, 611 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: which becomes relatively empty because a lot of times those 612 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: representations that the things you're getting in that representational mode 613 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: aren't actual signs that you have real human connections. And 614 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: so that again, that distance that's created, I think is 615 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: really crucial here. And it's not that we are more 616 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: isolated now than we've ever been in the sense that 617 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: there are less people around us, or we're able to 618 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: interact with less people. I actually think that value collapse 619 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: ideas sort of more what's happening to us. We've lived 620 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 1: into these representation, these simplified metrics that point to something 621 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: we really care about, and we've done it for so 622 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 1: long that we can't tell now that these metrics aren't 623 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: actually the thing. 624 00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 3: Yeah. 625 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: Wow, we have the representation of it, we don't have 626 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: the substance of it. 627 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when I can see that little number that 628 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 2: that that quantitative you have so many views, you have 629 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 2: so many likes that then, like, not only does it 630 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: give me a little dopamine head at the moment, it 631 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 2: presents this validation I am being accepted. I am getting 632 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 2: something in contrast to this other thing of human connection, 633 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 2: where yeah, I might get some of that, but I 634 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 2: also got to give into it. Not only do I get, 635 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: but I got to give into it. And that's just 636 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: that's a little too much effort when I can just 637 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 2: get what I want, this very utilitarian interaction comparatively to 638 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 2: this bidirectional connection right as we know. I remember working 639 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 2: with a couple one time in premarital counseling and they 640 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 2: were saying, well, yeah, you know, we need to get 641 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 2: fifty to fifty to the marriage relationship. I'm like, now 642 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: that that percentage is not nearly good enough. You need 643 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: to give like one hundred percent to each other, Like 644 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 2: there's a constant giving of each other that's expected in 645 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 2: the biblical narrative as much as what we see clinically. 646 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 2: The research indicates that if you're only looking to get 647 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 2: what you can get based on what you give, that utilitarian, 648 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 2: pragmatic kind of. 649 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 3: Construct only works for so long. 650 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 2: And this is one, I mean, get into some other 651 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 2: whole area of Gotman's research when he sees that, when 652 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 2: he sees that utilitarian pragmatic construct that's forming the marriage relationship, 653 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: he says, it's only a matter of time before that 654 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 2: marriage dissolves. But yet that's the normative construct that we've 655 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: utilized in almost every other technologically based relationship that we 656 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: validate as the norm. Like you said before, we've redefined 657 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: what normal is at that point. And then to go 658 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 2: back to what is good, it's is this a cult? 659 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 2: Like why why is this all here? Like this this 660 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 2: looks weird, This doesn't this isn't the norm because it's 661 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: not the norm anymore. 662 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 3: We we kind of shy away from it. 663 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: According, yeah, well this is good. I think this leads 664 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: us well into the existential leg. We've kind of touched 665 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 1: on some of it during this episode, but I think 666 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: just to recap our society has a deep influence on 667 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: who we understand ourselves to be and on what we 668 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: understand dignity to bee and I do think we need 669 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: the church to I think we need to reroot ourselves 670 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: in the church. Stop thinking about it as a voluntary society, 671 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: something we can or can't go to on a Sunday, 672 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: something we're willing to sort of set aside. It's actually 673 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: crucial for us to be there, crucial for us to 674 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: be participating, and I think that then can become a 675 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: solution to some of the identity crisis and community issues 676 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 1: that we're seeing today. So yeah, that social leg is crucial, 677 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: and next time we'll talk a little bit more about 678 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: the existential leg. So thanks, Ben, this is. 679 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 2: Great, This is great. Appreciate all these conversations, James. 680 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, everybody else, thanks for listening. We'll catch you 681 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I 682 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team 683 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 684 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 685 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 686 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.