WEBVTT - What You Didn't Know or Realize About Confession: Jamin Goggin on Exposing Our Secret Struggles 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:03.680 Life audio. 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.760 The truth of my sin is that because I have 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:11.799 become very habituated in hiding and covering my sin, a 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.760 self deception is a serious problem in my life. Some 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.720 sins I recognize in myself, but I don't recognize the 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:20.800 depth of them, or even the ways in which they 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.400 might actually be showing up and manifesting in my life. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.720 You need one another to actually see clearly what is 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.240 to be confessed. You need one another to actually see 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.320 your sin in truth, so that even in the privacy 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.839 of your prayer closet, you are drawing near to the 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.360 Lord in honesty. If I'm left to my own devices 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.120 of discerning my sin, I'm going to be in real trouble. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.440 Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:58.840 Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:04.880 your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks. 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.120 In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate, 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:14.720 the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. But it's 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.959 also a place of hope and healing. I know that 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:24.320 firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:29.040 the other way around. Today I've found sobriety after decades 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:34.960 of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I found Jesus. 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.319 My prayer is that as I interview people just like 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.720 you and just like me, along with professionals in the 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:47.480 fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you will find 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.880 the peace that is available to you through Christ on 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.920 the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:02.080 addiction that might be. Because, let's face it, we're all 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:07.880 addicted to something so welcome. Let's get radically vulnerable as 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.760 we explore what it looks like to be on this 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:16.960 journey of messy sanctification. So the number one thing that 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.520 I have been asked to speak on in the wake 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.120 of my book Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic is not 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:30.560 necessarily addiction. It's not necessarily what it you know, what 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.799 it's like to fall or get back up or anything 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.120 like that. It's actually about one of the four steps 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.000 I talk about in the second half of the book, 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:47.960 and specifically the step on radical vulnerability. And I think 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:53.600 that idea has resonated with so many people. It's very universal, right, 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:59.960 I mean, when it comes to radical vulnerability, it's something 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.280 we all need to practice. And especially when I introduce 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.520 it by its other name, which is true confession. And 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:12.639 confession is something that our guest today knows a lot about. 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:17.440 He has literally written a book on confession, and his 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.000 name is Jamin Goggin. He spent years on staff at 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:27.040 Sattlebeck Church with Rick Warren. He is now a professor 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.400 at Talbot Seminary, just connected to Biola, and he has 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:39.160 written a book called Pastoral Confessions, The Healing Path to 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.080 Faithful Ministry, and this book is specifically written to pastors 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.800 and how they can practice confession. But there is so 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.200 much good stuff in here that I wanted him to 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.920 come on and talk about confession in general, and he 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.560 is going to do that today. This is a incredible 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.120 conversation by someone who is a very deep thinker. So 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:05.640 we're going to get into why confession is necessary, why 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.880 it has to be horizontal and not just vertical, and 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.280 why it can be difficult as well. So with all 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:15.840 of that said, I want to get right into the 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:21.279 conversation because we we go deep, but it's not it's 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:27.480 still an accessible conversation. So ladies and gentlemen, Jamon Goggin, Jamen, 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.880 thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.040 Christian Alcoholic Podcast. I don't think you're going to be 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.560 confessing or revealing a secret addiction, although you know I'm 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:38.920 always I'm always open to that. But you are, in 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:44.760 a sense a foremost expert, if you will, on confession, 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.200 on that idea and the importance of that. So I'm 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.960 so glad to have you on the show today. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.840 Well, joy to be with you, John, Thanks for having me. 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.599 So before we get going, you know, I talked a 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.640 little bit about you in the introduction, but I always 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:01.920 love people to introduce themselves because I think we get 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.680 a glimpse at what's important to you and whatnot. So 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.880 why don't you introduce yourself to the audience. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.400 Well, it's wonderful to be with you, John. As you said, 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.760 my name is Jamon Goggin and probably the first and 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.039 most important things to share about myself, I live in 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.200 north San Diego County. For those who know the San 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.720 Diego area, I'm an Escondido. My wife and I have 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.760 the blessing of having five acres. We get to tend 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:33.680 the land, which is pretty unusual in so Cal. Having 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.200 grown up in so Cal, so that's an unusual thing. 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:42.159 A creek running through the property. We got large majestic 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:46.560 oak trees kind of lying the property, but primary investment 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.160 for us into the soil has been my wife's rose gardens. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.599 So we are most weekends you can find us tending 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.640 the ground. I'm kind of the labor to dig the 0:05:57.720 --> 0:05:59.880 holes and to fight off the gophers. And my wife 0:05:59.920 --> 0:06:04.919 is Truman Rose bushes. We have four kids who love 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.680 to adventure and explore that property, although one now is 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:13.440 a freshman at Biola University, so we're down to three 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.520 in the home regularly. Our three boys, our daughters off 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.760 at Biola, and I myself am actually a full time 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.680 professor at Biola, teach at Talbot School Theology the seminary there, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.560 and I've been doing that now for one year, coming 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:34.159 off of twenty years of full time pastoral ministry. So 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.600 on my background, My primary vocational background is local church 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.120 ministry in a variety of contexts, and now I have 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.159 the joy of teaching and training a new generation of 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.599 pastors and ministry leaders through a Talbot which is really fun. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.800 And I also am the director of something called the 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.520 Healthy Pastor Initiative, and work was finishing the task and 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:59.960 Rick Warren and I do retreats and kind of create 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:05.719 space for pastors both kind of oriented towards training and 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.320 equipping them in vocational health and fidelity, but also just 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.760 trying to create spaces to care for them. And a 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:14.520 lot of the work I do there is kind of 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.800 connected to some of my recent writing and pastoral confessions. 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.400 That's a little bit about me and where where I'm 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.560 from and what I'm up to. And yeah, it's good 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:24.080 to be with you. 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:29.400 Well, thank you, that's you know, thank you for investing 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.000 in the future. Right As someone who just finished my 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:38.200 seminary degree, I appreciate you. Depending on depending on what 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.480 kind of homework or tester you were, you know, maybe 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.240 that could might change a lot. Just I just hate 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:45.280 true false questions. Don't get me started on that. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.240 I have yet to assign anything that required a true 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.120 false answer in eating my classes. So I knew I think, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.960 I think I'm your kind of prof I knew you 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:57.120 were good. I knew it. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.120 But and you you know, you talked about working with 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.920 Rick Wardy. I mean you you really grew up at Saddleback. 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.560 I mean that was that's your background. I mean, you know, 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:08.480 I've heard you talk about this another podcast. But I 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.440 mean Rick was Rick was like pastor Rick like he 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.600 was he he wasn't He wasn't the untouchable Rick. He 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:16.880 was He was the guy that you were just going 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:17.880 over to his house all the time. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:23.680 Yes, yeah, my my family kind of charter members at 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.560 saddle Bite Church. This is a long time ago. I 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:32.319 started in in the nursery. Wow, church was you know, 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.640 less than a couple hundred people, and when my parents 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.640 joined as members, and so yeah, I grew up at 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.719 Saddleback and the kind of the the explosion of the 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.720 church and the size of the church, but also the 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.520 explosion of Rick and his ministry obviously through writing purpose 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:54.439 driven church and purpose driven life. But but my experience 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.240 through all of that was he was a pastor. I 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.880 knew he was my pastor and someone that I had 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.200 close personal relationship with. They grew up dear friends with 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.760 his son. And so as you said, I mean, I 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:12.920 have many memories of weekends through middle school and high school, uh, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.520 late night watching movies at the Warren household or swimming 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.800 in their pool. And it was a real, a real 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:25.120 gift to actually be able to just see kind of 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.200 behind the curtain of his public ministry and to see 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:34.640 the integrity of life, generosity of spirit, to know his character. Really, 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.280 in many ways, it gave me a vision for what 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.600 it meant to be faithful as a pastor years later, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:45.240 meaning in a ministry myself. So yeah, my, my, my, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:49.960 My typical answer when someone asks who who has pastored 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:53.320 you in your life, my first answer is Rick Warren. Mmm. 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.320 And we have another there's an interesting there's another connection 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:01.839 here Brandon Puffer, who has been on the podcast. His mother, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:06.520 I believe, was a longtime secretary there. 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.000 For Okay, okay, yeah, I don't know that. I don't 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.680 know we I know the last name, but I don't Yeah, 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:15.400 I don't know. 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.080 I can't remember her first name is her first name is? 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.080 Is failing me right now. But you can go back 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.280 and listen to that. Brandon was a former major league 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:29.040 pitcher who you know, listen to the siren song of addiction, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.520 like so many of us, ended up in prison, and 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.040 so when you talk about grace, when you talk about confession, 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.360 his story is a powerful one. So you can go 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.280 back and listen to that episode shameless plug, shameless plug 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.360 to get you know, to have people go back and listen. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.800 I would hope you would encourage people to listen to 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.320 your your party. There's nothing shameless about that. 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:55.080 Thank you. But we're talking to you because you've written 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.240 this book and I have it. I have it here 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.720 on on on my kindle. But Pastoral Canfessions the Healing 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.520 Path to face faithful ministry. Why don't you just give 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.840 us a little bit of background on what led you 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:13.800 to write this book? And I know it's specifically written 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.240 to pastors, but yet I have gleaned so much from it, 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.520 and I think our audience can glean so much from it. 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.040 But what led you to write this book? 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.360 Yeah? Well, as I shared earlier twenty years in full 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:34.840 time pastoral ministry and variety of church contexts, I think 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:41.959 those two decades of ministry were really, I think an 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:47.439 occasion for me to both as directed by the Spirit, 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.880 kind of attend to my heart and the unique semptations 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:54.120 and vices that can actually come in the pastoral vocation. 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.360 And without going all the details, there were just pretty 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.640 pivotal kind of inflection pointsments along that journey of twenty 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.520 years where the Lord really invited me to see the 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:10.000 truth of my heart that while I had embraced, I 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.760 think in faithfulness of calling to proclaim the Gospel and 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:17.800 shepherd God's people, that even in those places where oftentimes 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.079 I was ministering with good ends in mind, there were 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:28.880 vices driving and motivating me, whether it was grandiosity, self glory, pride, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.880 and so you know, along my journey, the Lord really, 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.800 in his grace invited me to see these things in 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.959 my heart, and I think surrounded me with both soul 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.840 care providers and dear friends in my life who can 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.760 kind of invite me into honest confession with the Lord 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.520 and take me a bit on a journey of formation 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.600 in my own kind of engagement with the vocation. And 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:00.520 so I think one part of the motive of the 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.880 book was really just just to name that name my experience. 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.120 But I think the second maybe element to share there 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.560 is that over the course of those twenty years, so 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:16.880 many conversations with fellow pastors in particular, that I often 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:22.280 discovered we're struggling with the very temptations or leading out 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:26.200 of similar vices that I had unearthed in my own 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:32.560 life and heart and ministry. And yet oftentimes we're trying 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.720 to kind of manage those things on their own, keep 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:39.160 them hidden, keep them concealed, sometimes perhaps out of fear 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.920 of what might happen if this is discovered? Will others 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.400 view this as disqualifying? With this, you know, quite literally 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:51.640 caused me to lose my job. I think for most 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.000 it probably wasn't always quite that extreme, but just that 0:13:55.080 --> 0:14:00.480 kind of that fear of what will people think, how 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:06.360 will they view me now as a leader? If the 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.040 truth of my heart, the sins of my heart, especially 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:10.760 as they're kind of coming to bear on the ways 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.360 in which I'm even engaging in the ministry, in the vocation, 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:18.600 those things are revealed, might it actually cause others to stumble? 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:26.400 And so I think, through the course of countless conversations 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.280 with fellow pastors, what began to surface in my heart? Wow, 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.480 there's a lot of pastors laboring in what I will 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:39.720 call just unconfessed sin, and they're trying to manage it 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:44.240 on their own. They've kind of kept these secrets to themselves. 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.400 But now I've been a ministry long enough to see 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.440 the very kind of lived reality and effect of what 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.720 happens when we keep our sins to ourselves, unconfessed and hidden, 0:14:55.760 --> 0:15:01.480 and try to manage them on our own. And so 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.440 I just really began to have this kind of burden 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.480 of heart? What might it look like to invite pastors 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.720 to kind of come out of hiding, to tell their 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.640 secrets first and foremost to the Lord, but also to 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:18.040 one another. And so the last piece here. I actually 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.600 started writing the book, and the original kind of working 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.480 title was Temptations of a Pastor. And I had kind 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.600 of yeah, and I had kind of stories of temptations 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.560 in ministry, and we'll probably get into this, but the 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.920 ways in which certain sins and vices can kind of 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:39.280 disorder and distort the very work the vocation itself. And 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.640 I was kind of narrating those things as temptations, and 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:49.160 I really felt a conviction from the Lord, like, was 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.480 it the healing that you found in all this jame 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.840 and actual confession and acknowledgment of sin, not just not 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.480 just that you were tempted by these things, but you 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.360 actually have sinned in these ways, and yet you've come 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:05.240 to know my grace. And and so I that was 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.600 for me. And this is several years ago when I 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.600 began to write the book. I spent a couple of 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.240 years writing it, but I I think for me that 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.160 was a really significant shift. And around that time I 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:25.720 returned to Augustine's you know, magisterial work, and and and 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.920 and I think the Lord also used his words, I 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.400 mean the confessions. I've read Augustin's Confessions. I've read I 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.560 don't know, probably six seven times in my life. But 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.600 this time I really used it as a kind of 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.200 the Lord used it, I think, just again to kind 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.760 of prod me towards a different mode of writing. And 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.000 so I really felt a sense of conviction that if 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.440 I'm going to call other pastors to confess their sins, 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:53.480 not just to talk about their temptation, but to really 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.360 be honest about their sin before the Lord and one another, 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.640 then I need then I need to go first. And 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.119 if we're going to take James five sixteen, seriously confessed 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:05.840 your sins to one another and pray for one another 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.480 that you may be healed, and I'm going to commend 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:13.840 that as actually a wise way for pastors to live 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.600 their lives, I need to go first in the book. 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.840 And so so that for me became an impetus for 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.879 not just talking about the idea of confession, not just 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.480 hinting at certain temptations I may have had, but as 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.960 you know, having read the book, actually confessing my pastoral 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.879 sins and then inviting pastors to join me in the 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:36.720 ways in which these sins might be showing up in 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.840 their lives as well. 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.520 So I was going to ask you a question and then, 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.239 like I told you, I just chased rabbits. And so 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.080 then you brought something up that I'm like, Okay, then 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.560 we're scrill there when I talk about radical vulnerability, which 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.080 is true confession, right, And so you know that's one 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.720 of my four steps. In my book, I talk a 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.200 lot about James five sixteen. One thing I appreciated about 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:05.480 your writing, by the way, is is it's great to 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:12.080 see another writer who will who will use healthy footnotes. 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:16.840 I love using footnotes. And so what's so interesting is 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.119 you you talk about James five to sixteen, and you 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:24.280 have this really lengthy footnote about where you go into 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.240 kind of some of the views on James five sixteen. 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.680 And you know, it's really interesting because when I'm speaking 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.159 on this, I point out it doesn't say confess your 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.880 sins one to another so you can have peace, so 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:38.600 you can have whatever it says so that you may 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.920 be feeled. And what's interesting to what I point out 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.919 is that I think this is an example of basically 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.200 like where science catches up to the Bible, because as 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.760 studies have shown that in confession, when we actually are 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.000 open and honest about what goes on and what has 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.400 been done to us and what we have done, we 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.280 like there's literally physical health, and like people who confess 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.800 more to go to the doctor less, like there's there's 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:13.400 actually physical benefits to confession. But it's interesting you kind 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.480 of went on this on on really digging through this, 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.680 and you kind of came to this conclusion I think 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.560 in some ways very similar that what James is talking 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:23.680 about there is holistic health. 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:28.919 Can you explain that, Yeah, yeah, well some of this is, 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.720 you know, to put my my theologian hat on for 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:39.240 a moment. Some of this is, uh probably would demand 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.600 getting into some weeds of exegesis with the whole book 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.960 of James. But in that in that footnote you reference, 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.679 I kind of tipped my cap to Richard Bakam at 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.480 least as I recall, and he he does a really 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:58.040 good job of kind of just identifying the ways in 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:05.520 which James talks about persons throughout his letter and to 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:08.639 put it in a kind of a negative register that 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.239 James is not prone to be kind of reductive, right, 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:17.280 But he's wanting to think holistically. And I think Bacham's 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.600 reading of the text is a good one on the whole. 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.080 And I think the way it shows up in particular 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:26.480 in that verse is, Yeah, in the immediate context, you 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.800 have this question about those who've been sick, those who've 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.640 been physically ill, and I think what we would want 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.560 to say is something like, yeah, what you just said 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.960 is true. It turns out human persons are integrated, right, 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.159 Meaning what's going on in our body is not somehow 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:47.800 kind of separated it from what's going on in our mind, 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:55.600 our heart, and vice versa. That persons experience life as 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:00.280 an integrated whole. And so I think we want to have, 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:06.439 I think a vision of the effects of sin that 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.080 makes sense of some of the other Biblical language that 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:10.720 we might want to bring in here. So I think 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:15.720 of the Psalm as talking about envy making the bones rocked. Well, 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.000 there's there's a way of reading that that just kind 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.760 of exclusively spiritualizes, meaning that reads it as a kind 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.040 of maybe exclusively as a metaphor for that which is 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.840 only something that the spirit experiences, or a spiritual experience. 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:34.080 But I'm inclined to read it actually again more holistically, 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:41.200 that there is a kind of bodily misery and physiological 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:46.800 reality that happens when a soul is really given over 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.080 to envy. But that's also not to the neglect of 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:56.199 the kind of spirit, mind, heart effect as well. So 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.600 I think, yeah, I would just want to affirm what 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:08.200 you said. And I do think that an unconfessed life 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.280 has an effect on the whole person, and I think 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:16.280 the healing we're looking for is a healing of the 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.879 whole person. Now, of course, I think we want to 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:23.520 have a kind of a right eschatological perspective here, meaning 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:26.120 I think what we don't want to do is suggest 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:32.000 some kind of form of a prosperity yes hundred gospel 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:36.160 in connection to confession, like if I just confess, then 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:42.359 all my physical ailments are going to go away. But 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:46.720 but again, neither do we want to suggest that our 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.280 sin and what's going on in our inner life, for example, 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.159 has no effect on our body. And I think in 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:58.679 many ways, as much as there's maybe some some deeper 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:01.480 theological questions to ask care and wrestle through, I think 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:07.240 in the lived experience that folks have even even that 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.040 reference I gave earlier envy makes the bones rot. I 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:13.399 think there's I think there's a sense where people can 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:15.600 kind of go, yeah, you know, there is a kind 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:20.000 of physiological, bodily kind of misery, you know, clinched, clinched 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:24.240 in my stomach, tight in my shoulders. Well, whatever it 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:26.680 may be for folks, and so I I think even 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:30.800 maybe as folks here as talk as much as as 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.399 much as uh, there's a lot we can say here 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.280 with theological depth. There is a kind of at handness 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:38.320 for folks where I think they would go, well, yeah, 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:40.600 of course, yeah, of course. 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:43.720 You know, you know, think the common language that is 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:46.639 used when people confess, like they say, it's like a 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:52.960 weight was lifted off, right, it's physiological language that anyone 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:55.600 who has ever hid something or had something kind of 0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:59.360 that they kept secret when it's come out. I mean 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.440 even even you see this on the news, right, people 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.840 who have been caught after so long and they're like, 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.840 you know it kind of it sucked, But man, if 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.679 I'm glad to be free, you know, like there is 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:14.040 a weight that is lifted, there's a freedom that is found, 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:18.080 which actually brings me to my next question. You have 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:25.399 this quote you say, the confessing soul is the flourishing soul. 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:31.280 Blessed we might say, are the confessors? And so two 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:34.359 questions there, I guess I would say, how can you 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.320 say that? Why? Why is that true? 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:38.120 Right? 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:40.919 And then what do you say to the person who's like, 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:45.160 that's great in theory, but you don't know what's coming 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.880 if I confess this, you know, So, how is it 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:52.359 that we can say that, blessed are the confessors? Like 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:53.919 what is waiting for us? 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:55.440 Yeah? And that's really good. 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:56.960 We'll be right back after this. 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.439 Yeah. I think where my mind goes here, John is 0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:07.119 maybe to reflect a little bit on Paul's theology in 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:12.800 Corinthians of power being perfected in weakness. And I think 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:17.720 the act of confession is in many ways an embrace 0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:23.119 of one's weakness, one's frailty, one's desperation, one's great need, 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:27.120 one's insufficiency. And in other words, it's not only an 0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:33.480 acknowledgment before the Lord that I've sinned or that there's brokenness, 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:37.240 But in confession, what we're saying is and I can't 0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:41.840 resolve it. Confession is an act of drawing near to 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:47.040 the Lord and the truth of ourselves, to declare I 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:51.399