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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: The truth of my sin is that because I have

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Speaker 2: become very habituated in hiding and covering my sin, a

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Speaker 2: self deception is a serious problem in my life. Some

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Speaker 2: sins I recognize in myself, but I don't recognize the

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Speaker 2: depth of them, or even the ways in which they

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Speaker 2: might actually be showing up and manifesting in my life.

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Speaker 2: You need one another to actually see clearly what is

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Speaker 2: to be confessed. You need one another to actually see

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Speaker 2: your sin in truth, so that even in the privacy

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Speaker 2: of your prayer closet, you are drawing near to the

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Speaker 2: Lord in honesty. If I'm left to my own devices

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Speaker 2: of discerning my sin, I'm going to be in real trouble.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 1: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 1: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 1: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 1: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. But it's

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Speaker 1: also a place of hope and healing. I know that

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Speaker 1: firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not

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Speaker 1: the other way around. Today I've found sobriety after decades

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Speaker 1: of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I found Jesus.

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Speaker 1: My prayer is that as I interview people just like

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Speaker 1: you and just like me, along with professionals in the

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Speaker 1: fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you will find

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Speaker 1: the peace that is available to you through Christ on

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Speaker 1: the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever

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Speaker 1: addiction that might be. Because, let's face it, we're all

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Speaker 1: addicted to something so welcome. Let's get radically vulnerable as

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Speaker 1: we explore what it looks like to be on this

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Speaker 1: journey of messy sanctification. So the number one thing that

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Speaker 1: I have been asked to speak on in the wake

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Speaker 1: of my book Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic is not

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Speaker 1: necessarily addiction. It's not necessarily what it you know, what

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Speaker 1: it's like to fall or get back up or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. It's actually about one of the four steps

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Speaker 1: I talk about in the second half of the book,

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Speaker 1: and specifically the step on radical vulnerability. And I think

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Speaker 1: that idea has resonated with so many people. It's very universal, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, when it comes to radical vulnerability, it's something

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Speaker 1: we all need to practice. And especially when I introduce

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Speaker 1: it by its other name, which is true confession. And

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Speaker 1: confession is something that our guest today knows a lot about.

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Speaker 1: He has literally written a book on confession, and his

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Speaker 1: name is Jamin Goggin. He spent years on staff at

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Speaker 1: Sattlebeck Church with Rick Warren. He is now a professor

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Speaker 1: at Talbot Seminary, just connected to Biola, and he has

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Speaker 1: written a book called Pastoral Confessions, The Healing Path to

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Speaker 1: Faithful Ministry, and this book is specifically written to pastors

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Speaker 1: and how they can practice confession. But there is so

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Speaker 1: much good stuff in here that I wanted him to

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Speaker 1: come on and talk about confession in general, and he

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Speaker 1: is going to do that today. This is a incredible

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Speaker 1: conversation by someone who is a very deep thinker. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into why confession is necessary, why

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Speaker 1: it has to be horizontal and not just vertical, and

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Speaker 1: why it can be difficult as well. So with all

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Speaker 1: of that said, I want to get right into the

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Speaker 1: conversation because we we go deep, but it's not it's

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Speaker 1: still an accessible conversation. So ladies and gentlemen, Jamon Goggin, Jamen,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a

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Speaker 1: Christian Alcoholic Podcast. I don't think you're going to be

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Speaker 1: confessing or revealing a secret addiction, although you know I'm

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Speaker 1: always I'm always open to that. But you are, in

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Speaker 1: a sense a foremost expert, if you will, on confession,

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Speaker 1: on that idea and the importance of that. So I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad to have you on the show today.

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Speaker 2: Well, joy to be with you, John, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So before we get going, you know, I talked a

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Speaker 1: little bit about you in the introduction, but I always

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Speaker 1: love people to introduce themselves because I think we get

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Speaker 1: a glimpse at what's important to you and whatnot. So

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Speaker 1: why don't you introduce yourself to the audience.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's wonderful to be with you, John. As you said,

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Speaker 2: my name is Jamon Goggin and probably the first and

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Speaker 2: most important things to share about myself, I live in

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Speaker 2: north San Diego County. For those who know the San

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Speaker 2: Diego area, I'm an Escondido. My wife and I have

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Speaker 2: the blessing of having five acres. We get to tend

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Speaker 2: the land, which is pretty unusual in so Cal. Having

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Speaker 2: grown up in so Cal, so that's an unusual thing.

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Speaker 2: A creek running through the property. We got large majestic

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Speaker 2: oak trees kind of lying the property, but primary investment

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Speaker 2: for us into the soil has been my wife's rose gardens.

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Speaker 2: So we are most weekends you can find us tending

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Speaker 2: the ground. I'm kind of the labor to dig the

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Speaker 2: holes and to fight off the gophers. And my wife

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Speaker 2: is Truman Rose bushes. We have four kids who love

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Speaker 2: to adventure and explore that property, although one now is

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Speaker 2: a freshman at Biola University, so we're down to three

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Speaker 2: in the home regularly. Our three boys, our daughters off

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Speaker 2: at Biola, and I myself am actually a full time

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Speaker 2: professor at Biola, teach at Talbot School Theology the seminary there,

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Speaker 2: and I've been doing that now for one year, coming

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Speaker 2: off of twenty years of full time pastoral ministry. So

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Speaker 2: on my background, My primary vocational background is local church

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Speaker 2: ministry in a variety of contexts, and now I have

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Speaker 2: the joy of teaching and training a new generation of

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Speaker 2: pastors and ministry leaders through a Talbot which is really fun.

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Speaker 2: And I also am the director of something called the

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Speaker 2: Healthy Pastor Initiative, and work was finishing the task and

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Speaker 2: Rick Warren and I do retreats and kind of create

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Speaker 2: space for pastors both kind of oriented towards training and

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Speaker 2: equipping them in vocational health and fidelity, but also just

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Speaker 2: trying to create spaces to care for them. And a

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Speaker 2: lot of the work I do there is kind of

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Speaker 2: connected to some of my recent writing and pastoral confessions.

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Speaker 2: That's a little bit about me and where where I'm

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Speaker 2: from and what I'm up to. And yeah, it's good

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Speaker 2: to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you, that's you know, thank you for investing

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Speaker 1: in the future. Right As someone who just finished my

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Speaker 1: seminary degree, I appreciate you. Depending on depending on what

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Speaker 1: kind of homework or tester you were, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: that could might change a lot. Just I just hate

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Speaker 1: true false questions. Don't get me started on that.

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Speaker 2: I have yet to assign anything that required a true

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Speaker 2: false answer in eating my classes. So I knew I think,

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Speaker 2: I think I'm your kind of prof I knew you

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Speaker 2: were good. I knew it.

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Speaker 1: But and you you know, you talked about working with

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Speaker 1: Rick Wardy. I mean you you really grew up at Saddleback.

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Speaker 1: I mean that was that's your background. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about this another podcast. But I

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Speaker 1: mean Rick was Rick was like pastor Rick like he

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Speaker 1: was he he wasn't He wasn't the untouchable Rick. He

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Speaker 1: was He was the guy that you were just going

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Speaker 1: over to his house all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, my my family kind of charter members at

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Speaker 2: saddle Bite Church. This is a long time ago. I

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Speaker 2: started in in the nursery. Wow, church was you know,

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Speaker 2: less than a couple hundred people, and when my parents

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Speaker 2: joined as members, and so yeah, I grew up at

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Speaker 2: Saddleback and the kind of the the explosion of the

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Speaker 2: church and the size of the church, but also the

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Speaker 2: explosion of Rick and his ministry obviously through writing purpose

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Speaker 2: driven church and purpose driven life. But but my experience

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Speaker 2: through all of that was he was a pastor. I

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Speaker 2: knew he was my pastor and someone that I had

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Speaker 2: close personal relationship with. They grew up dear friends with

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Speaker 2: his son. And so as you said, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: have many memories of weekends through middle school and high school, uh,

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Speaker 2: late night watching movies at the Warren household or swimming

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Speaker 2: in their pool. And it was a real, a real

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Speaker 2: gift to actually be able to just see kind of

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Speaker 2: behind the curtain of his public ministry and to see

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Speaker 2: the integrity of life, generosity of spirit, to know his character. Really,

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Speaker 2: in many ways, it gave me a vision for what

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Speaker 2: it meant to be faithful as a pastor years later,

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Speaker 2: meaning in a ministry myself. So yeah, my, my, my,

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Speaker 2: My typical answer when someone asks who who has pastored

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Speaker 2: you in your life, my first answer is Rick Warren. Mmm.

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Speaker 1: And we have another there's an interesting there's another connection

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Speaker 1: here Brandon Puffer, who has been on the podcast. His mother,

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Speaker 1: I believe, was a longtime secretary there.

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Speaker 2: For Okay, okay, yeah, I don't know that. I don't

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Speaker 2: know we I know the last name, but I don't Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember her first name is her first name is?

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Speaker 1: Is failing me right now. But you can go back

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Speaker 1: and listen to that. Brandon was a former major league

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Speaker 1: pitcher who you know, listen to the siren song of addiction,

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Speaker 1: like so many of us, ended up in prison, and

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Speaker 1: so when you talk about grace, when you talk about confession,

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Speaker 1: his story is a powerful one. So you can go

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Speaker 1: back and listen to that episode shameless plug, shameless plug

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Speaker 1: to get you know, to have people go back and listen.

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Speaker 2: I would hope you would encourage people to listen to

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Speaker 2: your your party. There's nothing shameless about that.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. But we're talking to you because you've written

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Speaker 1: this book and I have it. I have it here

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Speaker 1: on on on my kindle. But Pastoral Canfessions the Healing

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Speaker 1: Path to face faithful ministry. Why don't you just give

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Speaker 1: us a little bit of background on what led you

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Speaker 1: to write this book? And I know it's specifically written

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Speaker 1: to pastors, but yet I have gleaned so much from it,

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Speaker 1: and I think our audience can glean so much from it.

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Speaker 1: But what led you to write this book?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, as I shared earlier twenty years in full

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Speaker 2: time pastoral ministry and variety of church contexts, I think

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Speaker 2: those two decades of ministry were really, I think an

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Speaker 2: occasion for me to both as directed by the Spirit,

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Speaker 2: kind of attend to my heart and the unique semptations

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Speaker 2: and vices that can actually come in the pastoral vocation.

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Speaker 2: And without going all the details, there were just pretty

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Speaker 2: pivotal kind of inflection pointsments along that journey of twenty

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Speaker 2: years where the Lord really invited me to see the

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Speaker 2: truth of my heart that while I had embraced, I

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Speaker 2: think in faithfulness of calling to proclaim the Gospel and

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Speaker 2: shepherd God's people, that even in those places where oftentimes

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Speaker 2: I was ministering with good ends in mind, there were

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Speaker 2: vices driving and motivating me, whether it was grandiosity, self glory, pride,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, along my journey, the Lord really,

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Speaker 2: in his grace invited me to see these things in

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Speaker 2: my heart, and I think surrounded me with both soul

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Speaker 2: care providers and dear friends in my life who can

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Speaker 2: kind of invite me into honest confession with the Lord

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Speaker 2: and take me a bit on a journey of formation

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Speaker 2: in my own kind of engagement with the vocation. And

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Speaker 2: so I think one part of the motive of the

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Speaker 2: book was really just just to name that name my experience.

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Speaker 2: But I think the second maybe element to share there

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Speaker 2: is that over the course of those twenty years, so

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Speaker 2: many conversations with fellow pastors in particular, that I often

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Speaker 2: discovered we're struggling with the very temptations or leading out

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Speaker 2: of similar vices that I had unearthed in my own

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Speaker 2: life and heart and ministry. And yet oftentimes we're trying

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Speaker 2: to kind of manage those things on their own, keep

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Speaker 2: them hidden, keep them concealed, sometimes perhaps out of fear

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Speaker 2: of what might happen if this is discovered? Will others

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Speaker 2: view this as disqualifying? With this, you know, quite literally

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Speaker 2: caused me to lose my job. I think for most

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Speaker 2: it probably wasn't always quite that extreme, but just that

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Speaker 2: kind of that fear of what will people think, how

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Speaker 2: will they view me now as a leader? If the

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Speaker 2: truth of my heart, the sins of my heart, especially

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Speaker 2: as they're kind of coming to bear on the ways

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Speaker 2: in which I'm even engaging in the ministry, in the vocation,

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Speaker 2: those things are revealed, might it actually cause others to stumble?

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Speaker 2: And so I think, through the course of countless conversations

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Speaker 2: with fellow pastors, what began to surface in my heart? Wow,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of pastors laboring in what I will

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Speaker 2: call just unconfessed sin, and they're trying to manage it

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Speaker 2: on their own. They've kind of kept these secrets to themselves.

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Speaker 2: But now I've been a ministry long enough to see

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Speaker 2: the very kind of lived reality and effect of what

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Speaker 2: happens when we keep our sins to ourselves, unconfessed and hidden,

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Speaker 2: and try to manage them on our own. And so

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Speaker 2: I just really began to have this kind of burden

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Speaker 2: of heart? What might it look like to invite pastors

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Speaker 2: to kind of come out of hiding, to tell their

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Speaker 2: secrets first and foremost to the Lord, but also to

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Speaker 2: one another. And so the last piece here. I actually

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Speaker 2: started writing the book, and the original kind of working

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Speaker 2: title was Temptations of a Pastor. And I had kind

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Speaker 2: of yeah, and I had kind of stories of temptations

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Speaker 2: in ministry, and we'll probably get into this, but the

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Speaker 2: ways in which certain sins and vices can kind of

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Speaker 2: disorder and distort the very work the vocation itself. And

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Speaker 2: I was kind of narrating those things as temptations, and

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Speaker 2: I really felt a conviction from the Lord, like, was

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Speaker 2: it the healing that you found in all this jame

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Speaker 2: and actual confession and acknowledgment of sin, not just not

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Speaker 2: just that you were tempted by these things, but you

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Speaker 2: actually have sinned in these ways, and yet you've come

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Speaker 2: to know my grace. And and so I that was

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Speaker 2: for me. And this is several years ago when I

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Speaker 2: began to write the book. I spent a couple of

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Speaker 2: years writing it, but I I think for me that

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Speaker 2: was a really significant shift. And around that time I

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Speaker 2: returned to Augustine's you know, magisterial work, and and and

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Speaker 2: and I think the Lord also used his words, I

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Speaker 2: mean the confessions. I've read Augustin's Confessions. I've read I

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Speaker 2: don't know, probably six seven times in my life. But

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Speaker 2: this time I really used it as a kind of

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Speaker 2: the Lord used it, I think, just again to kind

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Speaker 2: of prod me towards a different mode of writing. And

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Speaker 2: so I really felt a sense of conviction that if

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Speaker 2: I'm going to call other pastors to confess their sins,

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Speaker 2: not just to talk about their temptation, but to really

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Speaker 2: be honest about their sin before the Lord and one another,

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Speaker 2: then I need then I need to go first. And

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Speaker 2: if we're going to take James five sixteen, seriously confessed

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Speaker 2: your sins to one another and pray for one another

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Speaker 2: that you may be healed, and I'm going to commend

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Speaker 2: that as actually a wise way for pastors to live

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Speaker 2: their lives, I need to go first in the book.

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Speaker 2: And so so that for me became an impetus for

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Speaker 2: not just talking about the idea of confession, not just

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Speaker 2: hinting at certain temptations I may have had, but as

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Speaker 2: you know, having read the book, actually confessing my pastoral

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Speaker 2: sins and then inviting pastors to join me in the

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Speaker 2: ways in which these sins might be showing up in

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Speaker 2: their lives as well.

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Speaker 1: So I was going to ask you a question and then,

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Speaker 1: like I told you, I just chased rabbits. And so

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Speaker 1: then you brought something up that I'm like, Okay, then

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Speaker 1: we're scrill there when I talk about radical vulnerability, which

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Speaker 1: is true confession, right, And so you know that's one

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Speaker 1: of my four steps. In my book, I talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about James five sixteen. One thing I appreciated about

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Speaker 1: your writing, by the way, is is it's great to

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Speaker 1: see another writer who will who will use healthy footnotes.

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Speaker 1: I love using footnotes. And so what's so interesting is

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Speaker 1: you you talk about James five to sixteen, and you

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Speaker 1: have this really lengthy footnote about where you go into

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Speaker 1: kind of some of the views on James five sixteen.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's really interesting because when I'm speaking

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Speaker 1: on this, I point out it doesn't say confess your

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Speaker 1: sins one to another so you can have peace, so

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Speaker 1: you can have whatever it says so that you may

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Speaker 1: be feeled. And what's interesting to what I point out

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Speaker 1: is that I think this is an example of basically

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Speaker 1: like where science catches up to the Bible, because as

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Speaker 1: studies have shown that in confession, when we actually are

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Speaker 1: open and honest about what goes on and what has

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Speaker 1: been done to us and what we have done, we

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Speaker 1: like there's literally physical health, and like people who confess

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Speaker 1: more to go to the doctor less, like there's there's

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Speaker 1: actually physical benefits to confession. But it's interesting you kind

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Speaker 1: of went on this on on really digging through this,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of came to this conclusion I think

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Speaker 1: in some ways very similar that what James is talking

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Speaker 1: about there is holistic health.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain that, Yeah, yeah, well some of this is,

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Speaker 2: you know, to put my my theologian hat on for

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Speaker 2: a moment. Some of this is, uh probably would demand

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Speaker 2: getting into some weeds of exegesis with the whole book

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Speaker 2: of James. But in that in that footnote you reference,

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Speaker 2: I kind of tipped my cap to Richard Bakam at

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Speaker 2: least as I recall, and he he does a really

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Speaker 2: good job of kind of just identifying the ways in

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Speaker 2: which James talks about persons throughout his letter and to

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Speaker 2: put it in a kind of a negative register that

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Speaker 2: James is not prone to be kind of reductive, right,

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Speaker 2: But he's wanting to think holistically. And I think Bacham's

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Speaker 2: reading of the text is a good one on the whole.

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Speaker 2: And I think the way it shows up in particular

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Speaker 2: in that verse is, Yeah, in the immediate context, you

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Speaker 2: have this question about those who've been sick, those who've

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Speaker 2: been physically ill, and I think what we would want

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Speaker 2: to say is something like, yeah, what you just said

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Speaker 2: is true. It turns out human persons are integrated, right,

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Speaker 2: Meaning what's going on in our body is not somehow

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Speaker 2: kind of separated it from what's going on in our mind,

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Speaker 2: our heart, and vice versa. That persons experience life as

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Speaker 2: an integrated whole. And so I think we want to have,

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Speaker 2: I think a vision of the effects of sin that

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Speaker 2: makes sense of some of the other Biblical language that

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Speaker 2: we might want to bring in here. So I think

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Speaker 2: of the Psalm as talking about envy making the bones rocked. Well,

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Speaker 2: there's there's a way of reading that that just kind

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Speaker 2: of exclusively spiritualizes, meaning that reads it as a kind

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Speaker 2: of maybe exclusively as a metaphor for that which is

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Speaker 2: only something that the spirit experiences, or a spiritual experience.

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Speaker 2: But I'm inclined to read it actually again more holistically,

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Speaker 2: that there is a kind of bodily misery and physiological

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Speaker 2: reality that happens when a soul is really given over

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Speaker 2: to envy. But that's also not to the neglect of

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Speaker 2: the kind of spirit, mind, heart effect as well. So

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I would just want to affirm what

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Speaker 2: you said. And I do think that an unconfessed life

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Speaker 2: has an effect on the whole person, and I think

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Speaker 2: the healing we're looking for is a healing of the

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Speaker 2: whole person. Now, of course, I think we want to

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Speaker 2: have a kind of a right eschatological perspective here, meaning

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Speaker 2: I think what we don't want to do is suggest

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Speaker 2: some kind of form of a prosperity yes hundred gospel

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Speaker 2: in connection to confession, like if I just confess, then

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Speaker 2: all my physical ailments are going to go away. But

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Speaker 2: but again, neither do we want to suggest that our

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Speaker 2: sin and what's going on in our inner life, for example,

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Speaker 2: has no effect on our body. And I think in

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Speaker 2: many ways, as much as there's maybe some some deeper

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Speaker 2: theological questions to ask care and wrestle through, I think

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Speaker 2: in the lived experience that folks have even even that

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Speaker 2: reference I gave earlier envy makes the bones rot. I

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Speaker 2: think there's I think there's a sense where people can

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Speaker 2: kind of go, yeah, you know, there is a kind

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Speaker 2: of physiological, bodily kind of misery, you know, clinched, clinched

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Speaker 2: in my stomach, tight in my shoulders. Well, whatever it

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Speaker 2: may be for folks, and so I I think even

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Speaker 2: maybe as folks here as talk as much as as

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Speaker 2: much as uh, there's a lot we can say here

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Speaker 2: with theological depth. There is a kind of at handness

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Speaker 2: for folks where I think they would go, well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: of course, yeah, of course.

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Speaker 1: You know, you know, think the common language that is

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Speaker 1: used when people confess, like they say, it's like a

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Speaker 1: weight was lifted off, right, it's physiological language that anyone

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Speaker 1: who has ever hid something or had something kind of

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Speaker 1: that they kept secret when it's come out. I mean

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Speaker 1: even even you see this on the news, right, people

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Speaker 1: who have been caught after so long and they're like,

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Speaker 1: you know it kind of it sucked, But man, if

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to be free, you know, like there is

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Speaker 1: a weight that is lifted, there's a freedom that is found,

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Speaker 1: which actually brings me to my next question. You have

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Speaker 1: this quote you say, the confessing soul is the flourishing soul.

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Speaker 1: Blessed we might say, are the confessors? And so two

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Speaker 1: questions there, I guess I would say, how can you

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Speaker 1: say that? Why? Why is that true?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: And then what do you say to the person who's like,

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Speaker 1: that's great in theory, but you don't know what's coming

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Speaker 1: if I confess this, you know, So, how is it

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Speaker 1: that we can say that, blessed are the confessors? Like

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Speaker 1: what is waiting for us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And that's really good.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think where my mind goes here, John is

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Speaker 2: maybe to reflect a little bit on Paul's theology in

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Speaker 2: Corinthians of power being perfected in weakness. And I think

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Speaker 2: the act of confession is in many ways an embrace

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Speaker 2: of one's weakness, one's frailty, one's desperation, one's great need,

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Speaker 2: one's insufficiency. And in other words, it's not only an

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Speaker 2: acknowledgment before the Lord that I've sinned or that there's brokenness,

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Speaker 2: But in confession, what we're saying is and I can't

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Speaker 2: resolve it. Confession is an act of drawing near to

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Speaker 2: the Lord and the truth of ourselves, to declare I

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Speaker 2: need you here, I am in need of grace. I

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Speaker 2: can't resolve this on my own. And so I think,

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Speaker 2: as I reflect a little bit on Paul's theology of

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Speaker 2: power and weakness, I think that's in part what I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to get at with the language of flourishing, that

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Speaker 2: if it really is true that the Christ's power is

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Speaker 2: perfected in weakness, that when I'm weak, then I'm strong,

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Speaker 2: that the sufficiency of His grace is what actually makes

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Speaker 2: for a sustained and flourishing life. Then getting about the

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Speaker 2: business of meeting God in the truth of my sin,

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Speaker 2: my frailty, as well as just other kinds of weakness.

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Speaker 2: We might want to talk about my insufficiencies, my fatigue,

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Speaker 2: my suffering, whatever it may be. But all these things

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Speaker 2: that often we try so hard to kind of hide

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Speaker 2: or cover, avoid, mitigate, actually all these things that we

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Speaker 2: might identify as weaknesses in our life now actually become

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Speaker 2: places in which we know the abiding presence of God

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Speaker 2: in our life and his power at work in our life.

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Speaker 2: And I think what I would want to say maybe

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Speaker 2: is something like this. You know, the the the only

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Speaker 2: powerful life is the life of utter dependence upon the Lord. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And that that is the flourishing life. The only way

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Speaker 2: to produce fruit in the kingdom is to abide. And

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Speaker 2: I know this is something you talk about in your

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Speaker 2: book as well. And apart from Him, we can do nothing.

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Speaker 2: And so the flourishing life, the powerful life, is the

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Speaker 2: abiding life. It's the life of coming to know God's

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Speaker 2: grace in our failure. It's a life of coming to

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Speaker 2: know His strength in our weakness and living out of

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Speaker 2: that power and that strength, living out of that abiding

431
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: love independence. And I know for many of us that's

432
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: that's counterintuitive kingdom, right, But it turns out that's the gospel. Right.

433
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, you bring up you bring up weakness.

434
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: And so one of my is two Corinthians twelve seven

435
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: through ten. Right, it's like, as someone who has come

436
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 1: to the end of the end of myself and continually

437
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: and needs to it's it's that thorn in my flesh

438
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: is what keeps me dependent on God. And I think,

439
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: what what what? What most people realize is like like

440
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: everyone has a thorn, right, Like we need to be

441
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: dependent on God, right, Like He allows these things to

442
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: draw us to himself. You say in the book, you

443
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: say our confession cannot merely be a secret kept between

444
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: us and God. And you talk about the necessity of

445
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: confession not just to be vertical but also horizontal. Can

446
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: you talk about why confession? You know some people might

447
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: be listening to listen, It's okay, I'll just you know.

448
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: And I did this a little bit too, right, the

449
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance, the tricks we play, the theological ways that

450
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: we justify whatever. Okay, I'm being open with God about it.

451
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: He knows, God knows. God knows that I'm struggling with alcohol. Right,

452
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: But why does confession also have to be horizontal?

453
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: Well, I think a good place to start and to

454
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: not look past too quickly is again a return to

455
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: James five sixteen. And I think what I don't read

456
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: in James five sixteen is any kind of opt out

457
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: clause for those who determined not needed for them, whether

458
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: they be ministry leaders or pastors, whether they be faithful

459
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: followers of Christ and congregations. Right, Confessor sens to one another.

460
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: I take it to one another is an all encompassing

461
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: kind of one another, the same as we get throughout

462
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: the rest of the New Testament. The one anothers are

463
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: directed to the whole of the Body Christ. So we

464
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: want to begin there to say, the Lord says we

465
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: need this, and he calls us to do this. Okay,

466
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: So I think maybe to get a little bit on

467
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: the inside of the why question, I think a couple

468
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: of things come to mind here. One is, I think

469
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: it's important to not reduce interpersonal confession within the Body

470
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: of Christ to merely a kind of human or earthly communication.

471
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: If indeed the Church is intwelt by the Holy Spirit,

472
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: and the Spirit is working in and through the members

473
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: of the Body of Christ to build up this body

474
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: in love, which I think the Apostle Paul makes quite

475
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: clear for us. Then in fact, as we're confessing our

476
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: sins to one another, and as we're hearing one another's confessions,

477
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: the Spirit of the Lord is at work in and

478
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: through the body. In other words, it's not like over here,

479
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: I'm praying and talking to God in my prayer closet,

480
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: and that is a kind of distreet act between God

481
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: and I alone. And then over here when I talk

482
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: to maybe a friend at church about my sin, it's

483
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: just my friend and I talking about my sin, and

484
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: God's not involved. That's not the theology of the New

485
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: Testament and what we have going on in the New

486
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: Testament as a vision of God being at work in

487
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: and through the priesthood of all believers. In other words,

488
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: his grace, the grace we need to meet us in

489
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: our sin, the grace that brings healing in our sin,

490
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: is not only to be known in the privacy of prayer,

491
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: but it is mediated in and through the members of

492
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: His body. It is mediated in in through the priesthood

493
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: of all believers. So, in other words, to say we

494
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: need one another and to confess to another is yet

495
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: still to say we need God. And here's how God

496
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: has seemed fit to communicate himself to us and communicate

497
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: his grace to us is in and through his body Church.

498
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: So I'd want to again there as a reminder that

499
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: this isn't a kind of yeah, we need to tell God,

500
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: but also I need to tell a person too, or

501
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 2: something like that God is involved in all this. Our

502
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: confession is always directed to Him, and noticed there in

503
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: James five sixteen, the reason for confession to another is

504
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: that the other may pray for us. God needs to

505
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: hear our prayers from our own heart, and He also

506
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: needs to hear our prayers in and through the hearts

507
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: of others. He hears our heart through the intercession of

508
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: brothers and sisters in Christ. He hears our cry through

509
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: their shared cry on our behalf. I say this often

510
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: when this comes up in context, for maybe I'm invited

511
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: to speak, I say, I can use all the prayer

512
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: I can get. How about you? And I can use

513
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: all the prayer I can get, And I can use

514
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: all the prayer I can get in particular about the

515
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: sin in my life, which is I take it to

516
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: be the deepest problem of my life. Whatever I've determined

517
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 2: to be the deepest problem of my life. Sin actually

518
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: is the deepest problem of my life. And I can

519
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: use all the prayer I can get about such sin.

520
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: I think the other thing I would want to say,

521
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: last thing I'd want to say here, John, is this.

522
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: I take it that others who are listening to this

523
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: are like me. And the truth of my sin is that,

524
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: because I have become very habituated in hiding and covering

525
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: my sin, often am very self deceived about the sin

526
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 2: in my life. Self deception is a serious problem in

527
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 2: my life. Some sins I recognize in myself, but I

528
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: don't recognize the depth of them, or even the ways

529
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: in which they might actually be showing up and manifesting

530
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: in my life in relationship to other people. And so

531
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot we could say here, but

532
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: one of the things I would I would want to

533
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: also invite people to consider, is you need one another

534
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: to actually see clearly what is to be confessed. You

535
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: need one another to actually see your sin in truth,

536
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: so that even in the privacy of your prayer closet,

537
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 2: you are drawing near to the Lord in honesty. If

538
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: I'm left to my own devices of discerning my sin,

539
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in real trouble. And so that

540
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: the kind of the avoidance of confession to others is

541
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 2: also an avoidance of the truth of my sin, because

542
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: to varying degrees, we all are self deceived about our

543
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: lives and about our sin. And so part of that

544
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 2: confession to another as well is to say, can you

545
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: help me see this in truth in my life? Can

546
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: you help me see what's really going on? Can you

547
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: join me as a friend or maybe a sole care

548
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: provider or pastor whoever it may be, in my life,

549
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: can you help me discern the sin in my life?

550
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: And also discern the ways in which it is showing

551
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: up that I can bring all of that before the Lord,

552
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: and you can bring all of that before the Lord

553
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: as well with me. So I think that's another another

554
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: reason why to get at the why why we need

555
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 2: one another confession of our sin.

556
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: I want to go here for a second because there

557
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: is Chuck to Grott. He's been a guest on this

558
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 1: podcast as well, which I know you reference him in

559
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: the book, but he talks about vulnerability versus real vulnerability,

560
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: and you have this line that I think is really good.

561
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: You say every temptation was a means of escaping that

562
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: which is at the heart of true confession vulnerability. And

563
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: obviously I give it a qualifier in my book as

564
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: well that it has to be radical vulnerability because our

565
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: we're used to regular vulnerability, right, we know how to

566
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 1: And you kind of talk about this a little bit too,

567
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: and where where oh, I'm just going to confess my struggles,

568
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: you know, in right, I'm just gonna talk about my

569
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: you know. And and I give that example of the

570
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: book too, like you go around a room and everyone's like,

571
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, Bob's like, yeah, I'm just struggling with LUs today.

572
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: You know, you're like, okay, Bob, like what does that.

573
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: Really look like? Right?

574
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: Are you going to be right? So my question to

575
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: you is what does it look like? And what does

576
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: it mean to be truly vulnerable? Like what does that mean?

577
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: Hm? Yeah, well I do. I have appreciation for Chuck.

578
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: He's a he's a friend, and yeah, just really appreciative

579
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: of his ministry. And I think he has some good

580
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 2: things to say here. I'd want to commend his writing

581
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 2: one vulnerability for folks. You know what comes up for me,

582
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: as you asked, that is maybe a brief reflection and

583
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: a brief return to the first moment of sin and

584
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 2: Genesis three in the garden. What we see immediately following

585
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: sin and rebellion is an attempt to hide and cover

586
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: because of guilt and shame, to kind of now deal

587
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: with the fallout and to begin kind of managing God

588
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: and to keep God at a distance. And I think

589
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 2: the fear that shows up there for Adam and Eve

590
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: is if I actually come out of hiding and I

591
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 2: uncover that I'm going to be in real trouble and

592
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 2: condemnation is coming. And I think it's important to remember

593
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,240
Speaker 2: that this fear is not for no reason as well.

594
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: I mean, the Lord has communicated clearly death is the

595
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: consequence for rebellion and sin, and so I think we

596
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: need to be careful not to just kind of collapse

597
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: the story into kind of psychological struggle. But there are

598
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: real consequences for sin, there's real judgment for sin, according

599
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: to the Lord. And yet what we see as the

600
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: Lord graciously calls them out of hiding with that wonderful

601
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: question where are you? This is not God? Is it

602
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: like bad at hide and seek?

603
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 3: You know, he knows exactly where they are physically, But

604
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 3: I take it, but I take it the question is

605
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 3: not just a question of where they are physically, but

606
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 3: it is a question that is inviting confession.

607
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: Come out of hiding in all the ways you're hiding, uncover,

608
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 2: come before me. And the fear there for Adam and

609
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: Eve is that the place of their healing is actually

610
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 2: a place of harm, and the truth is the only

611
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: way for them to resolve what's going on. The only

612
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 2: way for them to actually be healed is to indeed

613
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 2: come out of hiding, drawn nears to the Lord and

614
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: to discover that he actually meets them in grace. And

615
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: as we see the movement in the garden now is

616
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: going to be a movement to promise of resolution for

617
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 2: this not only for them, but for all of humanity.

618
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: A promised seed, but a provisional covering right is offered

619
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: for them in place of the covering they've tried to make.

620
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: God's gracious presence meets them. So I think what I

621
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 2: would want to say is something like this, Adam Neive's

622
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 2: temptations of hiding and covering, these are going to be ours.

623
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: We inherit them in the fall. Their fear of condemnation

624
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: is going to be a kind of perennial now, fear

625
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: for the human heart, especially in relation to sin, this

626
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: is going to be part of our experience. And so

627
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: how do we then embrace the vulnerability necessary for the healing?

628
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: How do we actually continue to come out of hiding

629
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: time and again so that we might actually experience God's grace?

630
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 2: And I think what I often tell folks is and

631
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: I love your language, John, I love the language of

632
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: radical vulnerability. But what I often tell folks is you

633
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: must begin where you are. And if where you are

634
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: is well, Lord, I still feel like hiding, and I

635
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: don't know that it actually is safe. Then start the

636
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 2: conversation there, and that's where radical vulnerability, I would argue,

637
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 2: actually begins, because I think one of the temptations when

638
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: hearing that language of kind of radical vulnerability is to

639
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: think I have to go from zero to one hundred, right,

640
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: meaning you know, I haven't been vulnerable at all. And

641
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 2: now what you're asking me to do is, like, I

642
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 2: don't know, show up tomorrow night at an AA meeting

643
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 2: around the corner and let everybody in that room know

644
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 2: everything I've ever done, or show up to my small

645
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: small group meeting tonight and finally let it rip and

646
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: tell them every sin I've ever committed since I was

647
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: five years old with great detail, right, and you know,

648
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 2: and likewise to do the same thing with the Lord.

649
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: You know, if I'm honest, I've kind of lived a

650
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: fairly unconfessed life in prayer. I've done a lot of

651
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: maybe generic sin confession. Oh Lord, you know I'm a sinner,

652
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 2: forgive me, Okay, thanks bye. There's been a lot of that.

653
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: And now you're asking me to kind of somehow go

654
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: full tilt on every moment of pornographic viewing for the

655
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: last decade and to kind of print off a sheet

656
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 2: at time stamps and then talk to the Lord about

657
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 2: every one of those moments like, oh, man, right, and so,

658
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: what I would want folks to hear, and I think

659
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: you would agree with this, what I would want folks

660
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: to hear is this is the temptation for us in

661
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: dealing with our sin, the very temptation of Adam Eve.

662
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: This is going to be the fear for us, the

663
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: very fear of Adam and Eve. And now the I

664
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 2: think the invitation of the Lord is to begin coming

665
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: out of hiding to hear that question where are you

666
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 2: and to begin answering it precisely in the place we are,

667
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 2: and if the place we are is Lord, I think

668
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: the only vulnerability I can do right now is to

669
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: be honest, fatifical with the fact that it's really scared

670
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 2: to be vulnerable. Start the conversation with the Lord there,

671
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 2: because the answer to courage is going to be nothing

672
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: short of and encounter with the tryune God, meaning I

673
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: don't want to have any model for maturing and vulnerability

674
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 2: that is natural. It has to be supernatural, meaning it's

675
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 2: going to require God's presence actually meeting you in that vulnerability.

676
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: That one half step of vulnerability measure his grace meeting

677
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 2: you there, his presence and encounter with him. That's going

678
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: to now give you the courage to say, you know what,

679
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: I haven't think I have a little more to share.

680
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: They kept a little more to share, And I think

681
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 2: I would just say the same thing about confession ever

682
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 2: since to one another. You know, my book is so much,

683
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 2: as you said, directed towards pastors. Although much of the

684
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: book I'm talking about sin in all of our lives, right,

685
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: and I narrate the seven deadly sins pride and lust

686
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: and in the avarice. Acadia might be a little bit

687
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 2: unfamiliar to folks, but I think, here sloth, that's primarily

688
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: what we have in mind with a Kadia. But you know,

689
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: and I narrate in many of the chapters kind of

690
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 2: the need for us to confess these things to one another,

691
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 2: for pastors to confess these sins to another another pastor

692
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: another ministry leader. And oftentimes I get questions there, man,

693
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: how do I go from I don't do this at

694
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 2: all to again showing up in my next elder meeting,

695
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 2: and just what do I do? Just let it rip?

696
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: I like, share everything, call a friend tonight and don't

697
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: get off the phone until it's all done. Is this

698
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: what you're asking me to do? And I say no, No,

699
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,919
Speaker 2: Begin where you are. Identify someone you trust in your life,

700
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: fellow elder, fellow pastor, trusted friend who themselves are committed

701
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: to falling Christ, who want to embrace this way of

702
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,959
Speaker 2: flourishing a life of confession, and start the conversation right there.

703
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: You know what, John, I think this is something we're

704
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 2: called to do. That's how I read James five sixteen.

705
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: But if I'm really honest, it scares me to death.

706
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: And I trust you as a friend. But if I'm

707
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: really honest, there's there's parts of me that aren't sure

708
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: I can trust you as really being honest about certain

709
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 2: things in my life. Can we start the conversation there?

710
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: How do you hear that? And how do you feel?

711
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 3: Oh?

712
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: You know, Jam And it turns out I feel scared too,

713
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: and I you know, And it turns out, you know,

714
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 2: I think you're right, this is something we're called to do,

715
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 2: but it seems really scary to really do that in

716
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: a kind of fulsome way, a full throatd infession. And

717
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: can we just start the conversation there? And again? Now

718
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: we can begin to build trust and begin to take

719
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: half steps maybe sometimes some full steps into greater vulnerability.

720
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: So I love that language of vulnerability, radical vulnerability, but

721
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: I think the journey of radical vulnerability is just that

722
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: it's a journey, and what opens us up. I think

723
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: encourage to be honest before the Lord and honest with

724
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: others about our lives is to begin where we are

725
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 2: and to encounter God's grace and to experience the blessed

726
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: presence of brothers and assist in Christ continuing to meet

727
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: us faithfully and well in certain places where we can

728
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,919
Speaker 2: begin to cultivate a little bit more courage to share more.

729
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: Well, you're one hundred percent right that we would be

730
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: on the same page because whenever I talk about radical

731
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: vulnerability and people okay, so what And my line is

732
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: I say, just go one step for then you're comfortable going,

733
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: and then and then when you get comfortable there, just

734
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 1: take another step. And then when you get comfortable there,

735
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: you take it another step.

736
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: You know.

737
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: So it's like it's like, you know, I had a

738
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: guy raised his hand, He's like, ah, you know, all

739
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: you young people you just post everything on you know,

740
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: social media, and I'm like, listen, I am not telling

741
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: you to go home and post all your sins on

742
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 1: social media. And that's what radical vulnerability is. It's going

743
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: one step further than you're comfortable going, and then taking

744
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,959
Speaker 1: another step, and then taking another step. And you said

745
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: something there that I just wanted to read because I

746
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: think it's one of the most beautiful few lines in

747
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 1: the book. But you talked about the place of harm

748
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: being the place of healing. I'm a sucker for alliteration

749
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: as well, so so I just wanted to read this.

750
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: The fear of our heart is built on sins. Great lie,

751
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: that the place of healing is the place of harm,

752
00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: that the chalice of confession is filled with poison, that

753
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: the medicine God has provided cannot be trusted. We have

754
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: come to believe that confession is not a place of life,

755
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: but instead a place of death. Of course, as with

756
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: all lies, the devil has sown this one trades on

757
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: something that is true. Confession does entail a kind of death,

758
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: but it is precisely by such a death that we

759
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: find true life. And you know, someone asked me, well, John,

760
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: how would you define vulnerability? And I want to run

761
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: this by you and see what you think. Right, you

762
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: can tell me I'm wrong, right, you can be professor,

763
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: an I'd be seminary student. But is like, I feel

764
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: like if we're going to practice vulnerability, true vulnerability, that

765
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: it has to entail the fact that we could get hurt,

766
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: Like it has to it has to entail the fact that,

767
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: like if you're confessing something in being vulnerable, like you know,

768
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: I joke with someone the other day that it's kind

769
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: of like the Miranda right, like cannon will be used

770
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: against you in the court of law, like it could

771
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: be used against you in the court of public opinion.

772
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: Like if you confess this, it could hurt you in

773
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 1: some ways. That's how you know you're being vulnerable. How

774
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: does that sit am? I am I off there? What

775
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: does that? What does that sound like to you?

776
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: Well, when I when I hear you say that, I

777
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: think I'm hearing you kind of primarily talking about interpersonal vulnerability.

778
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 2: So we're not talking about a relationship with God here, right, right,

779
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: We're talking about sharing with another, being honest with another

780
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: about our life, and confessing to another person. And I

781
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 2: think I think they're I think you're right, and I

782
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: think maybe to move away from the kind of immediate

783
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: context of confessing my sins. This is just true of

784
00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 2: genuine relationship. In other words, vulnerabilities, it turns out, is

785
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 2: going to be kind of a prerequisite for actual relationship.

786
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 2: To be known requires a kind of honesty of person

787
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 2: and a vulnerability of person. And if I'm not known,

788
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: then I'm not going to actually experience love. And so

789
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 2: I think in many respects, maybe we just want to

790
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: say it this way, even in broader terms than even

791
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 2: specific to confession, although I do think it applies there.

792
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 2: The risk of vulnerability is the risk of love, and

793
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 2: the risk of love with it turns out human persons

794
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: is the risk of being hurt and being disappointed and

795
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 2: being let down and being rejected, and that's I think

796
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: we all know that to be true in life. And

797
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: the other option is we opt out of genuine relationships,

798
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 2: we opt out of really being known, and consequently we

799
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: opt out of experiencing love and being loves by another.

800
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 2: And I think that that's true in dating relationships, it's

801
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 2: true in friendships all right, It's true in partnered ministry relationships,

802
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: and in the church. It's it's true in all of

803
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 2: our relationships. And I think without that vulnerability we live

804
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: very I think in the truest sense of the word

805
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 2: lonely lives in which we are not known and we

806
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: do not experience being loves. But yes, it it brings

807
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: with it a risk. It brings as as as genuine

808
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: love and authentic relationship always does. It brings with it

809
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 2: the risk of being rejected and being hurt and being

810
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 2: let down. And I think here maybe I would just

811
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: want to add one note for folks up, kind of

812
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: a pastoral note. I think in all this talk of

813
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: confessing sins and being vulnerable, it's not lost on me

814
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: that some of us have tried to do that. And

815
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you know these stories as well, John,

816
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: Some of us, you know, have taken the risk of

817
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 2: being honest and being vulnerable and trusting another with our life,

818
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,479
Speaker 2: whether it's confessing sin or even just sharing a personal wound,

819
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: actually sharing suffering another place of vulnerability in our lives,

820
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: and that has been used against us, or we have

821
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: been gossiped about, or we have been met with condemnation,

822
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: or we've been met a bit like Job's friends met

823
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: him with a kind of fixing, spiritual spiritualized speech, correction

824
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 2: where comfort was needed, whatever it may be, and it's

825
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 2: not lost on me that those experiences of rejection, of

826
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 2: the kind of correction where comfort was actually needed, or

827
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: maybe have just kind of avoidance. Maybe we shared with

828
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: somebody and they didn't slander, they didn't correct or condemned,

829
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 2: but they just kind of took off, They didn't stay

830
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: with us in it, and they kind of ran away

831
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: when we really needed intimacy and care and presence. And

832
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 2: those experiences are really painful, and they can we can

833
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 2: begin to cultivate in the heart a sense of caution

834
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: and suspicion and doubt and hesitancy in choosing to be

835
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 2: vulnerable again, choosing to trust again. And I think that

836
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: is oftentimes, for many of us, a great challenge. And

837
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 2: so once again my encouragement here would be two things. One,

838
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: meet the Lord in that, you know, if you've experienced

839
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: that from a friend or a pastor even just someone

840
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: you trusted that you thought you could be vulnerable with

841
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: and it actually it was harmful in some ways. Meet

842
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: the Lord in that in your grief and crowd to him,

843
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 2: and this needs to be brought into prayer. But also

844
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 2: as you're able to begin to bring that experience into

845
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 2: conversation with trusted others, as you said, with a half

846
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: step or a one step measure, like, Hey, I really

847
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 2: want this to be true of our friendship, but I've

848
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 2: had some experiences with prior friendships that boy didn't go great,

849
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: you know, And I just can we begin the conversation there, like,

850
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 2: I know that's not you, but it's hard for me

851
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 2: not to have those fears of this relationship and allow

852
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 2: now the experience of vulnerability to the degree were able

853
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 2: to be a kind of healing bomb relationally to begin

854
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 2: to recultivate trust. But I take it, you know.

855
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 4: This is that conversation not long ago with with Ray

856
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 4: Ortland about some of this and and he shared a

857
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 4: wonderful line that I think he received from his maybe

858
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 4: his dad in the years of growing up.

859
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 2: But people, people will hurt you and disappoint you and

860
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: keep giving your heart away. And you know, because the

861
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: other option is again a kind of loneliness and a

862
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 2: life of isolation apart from kind of love and care

863
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 2: and intimacy that I think the Lord intends, particularly within

864
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 2: the body of Christ.

865
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, two more questions as we start to wrap up here.

866
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 1: One of them would be, you know you write this

867
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: book to pastors, I think one of the great failures

868
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: of the church. And and you know that paints a

869
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: broad brush, but but it's just not really kind of

870
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,439
Speaker 1: understanding grace, right that when people do fall, when they

871
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: when they do confess, when there are things that the

872
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 1: church and too many Christians kind of struggle with, Well

873
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: what does it look like to offer grace to someone

874
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: and so and so there's this there's this line you have.

875
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: He says, the problem comes when we believe above reproach

876
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: equals without sin. And so I guess my question is

877
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: how do we how does the church come to a

878
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 1: better understanding of what it looks like to accept people

879
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: in general as they're confessing, but then also pastors and

880
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: those who have fallen, and not just throw these kind

881
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,720
Speaker 1: of trite like well, you're supposed to be above reproach

882
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: and the and the scriptures say that you will be

883
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: judged party, which is true, but first of all, like

884
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: what does that mean above reproach? And how can we

885
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: as Christians do a better job of offering grace? We'll

886
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: be right back after.

887
00:55:54,719 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, great question. I think the above reproach is

888
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 2: that line. I think you know it's used repetitiously by

889
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: the apostle Paul in those texts in the pastoral epistles

890
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: that are often identified as qualifications for the pastoral office.

891
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: So you have Titus one Timothy three, and I think

892
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 2: the best way to understand what Paul's getting at there

893
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 2: is actually just to read this surrounding context. Right, Paul

894
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 2: provides in both those texts of qualification for the pastoral

895
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 2: office a kind of profile of character. What we don't

896
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: get there is anything about a resume of success or

897
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 2: accolades or achievements, or even skill set and competency. Paul's

898
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 2: concern is about character, and so we hear about being

899
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 2: self controlled and gentle, we hear about being hospitable. Right

900
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 2: is going to give us a profile in both these passages,

901
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 2: And I think that's the best place to look and saying, well,

902
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: what does it look like to be a BROP approach?

903
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 2: In other words, I take above reproach to be the

904
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: kind of summary statement for this kind of person. I'm

905
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: describing what I often say in the classes I teach

906
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: to Talbot is pastors are called to love to a

907
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 2: life of holy love that is both distinguished and demonstrative,

908
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 2: meaning it's marked by maturity. It's distinguished. They are elders

909
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 2: in the household of God. They are those who are

910
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 2: older and mature in the faith that the rest of

911
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: the body of Christ ought to be able to look

912
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 2: at and say, Ah, that's what it looks like to

913
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 2: mature in Christ, to mature in love. And they do

914
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 2: so in a demonstrated manner, meaning their examples to the

915
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 2: flock that their lives are meant to be an example

916
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: of it. This is what it looks like to bear

917
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 2: the fruit of an abiding life in Christ with maturity. Now,

918
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 2: all that being said, that line you read for my book,

919
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: what this doesn't mean is that a pastor is going

920
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 2: to be perfect above approach is not without sin. If

921
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: the qualification for the pastoral office was without sin, none

922
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: would be found qualified. To put it simply right, If

923
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 2: if we say we're without sin, we deceive ourselves and

924
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 2: we call God a liar. I take that to be

925
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: true for all of us. Okay, yeah, and so now

926
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: I think we're gonna need to think, well about what

927
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 2: does it mean then for someone to have a kind

928
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 2: of character, a formed character in Christ by the spirit,

929
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: that is genuinely matured in love, and that is an

930
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: example to all. Then I think there is a sense

931
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 2: in which we do need at have a high bar

932
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 2: standard holy life, a life of obedience, but also recognize

933
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 2: pastors are not without sin. And so I would commend

934
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 2: those two texts to folks I think as places to

935
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 2: look at. What is Paul talking about what kind of character?

936
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 2: Notice in those passages a lot of what you get

937
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: is talk about both the way in which they manage

938
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,439
Speaker 2: and care for their home and their family, as well

939
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 2: as their reputation in the community. And of course, in

940
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 2: a first century context, these two things are not as

941
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: easily separated as they are at our day. We don't

942
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 2: have people driving forty five minutes to an office to

943
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 2: work all day and driving home where maybe their spouse

944
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: literally never even sees their offers and knows anyone that

945
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 2: they work with. Right, We're dealing with a cultural environment

946
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 2: where the way one conducts one's business is family business

947
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 2: first of all, and the way in which one lives

948
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: in their home is kind of bleeds into the marketplace

949
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 2: in the community that they live in. And so what

950
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 2: I what I take that to mean is these are

951
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 2: the kind of people whose lives, the way they live

952
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 2: their lives with their family. The way they live their

953
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 2: lives in the community again models a maturity in Christ

954
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 2: and demonstrates what it looks like to bear the fruit

955
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 2: of the Spirit in a way that is exemplary. So

956
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 2: that being said, I think to answer your other question

957
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 2: that was attached to it, I think, unfortunately, I think

958
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 2: we tend to we often, I think, tend to conflate

959
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 2: a couple of things here, right, pastors caught in sin.

960
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 2: That's genuinely disqualifying for the pastoral office, according to those

961
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 2: qualification texts that we have from Paul. Sometimes you'll hear

962
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 2: folks say something like, well, we want to be about grace,

963
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 2: and who are we to you know, maybe everything I

964
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 2: just said, You know, who are we any of us

965
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 2: to claim we're without sin? And well, yes, of course,

966
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 2: if if there's genuine repentance and confession, right, we want to,

967
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 2: as appreciated of all believers, declare the good news of

968
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 2: absolution in Christ to this brother in Christ who sinned.

969
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 2: And uh, if there's genuine repentance and confession, then those

970
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 2: other measures that the apostle actually calls us to, of

971
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 2: potential exclusion from from the body of Christ and excommunication

972
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 2: and discipline. Well, if there's genuine repentance and confession and

973
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 2: a pursuit of restoration in Christ, we want to receive

974
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: them yet still as a brother in Christ. However, that

975
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: does not mean they get to hold pastoral office. Belonging

976
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 2: to the Body of Christ is not equivalent with holding

977
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 2: a pastoral office. And what I would say is offering

978
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 2: grace is no mean they get to keep their job.

979
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 2: Offering grace means we welcome them yet still as a

980
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 2: brother in Christ. We receive their confession and repentance as

981
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: genuine and celebrate the good news of the Gospel that

982
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 2: their sins are forgiven, and we honor the good news

983
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 2: of the Gospel in Christ in their life. And yet

984
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 2: if they've proven to be disqualified from pastoral office, then

985
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 2: I take it they can no longer hold pastoral office.

986
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 2: And so I think sometimes we can kind of conflate

987
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 2: these things, right that showing grace means they ought to

988
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 2: be able to get back on their job, and I

989
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 2: think being a member of the Body of Christ is

990
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 2: kind of their first place of identity and relationship to

991
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 2: the church. Not all members of the Body of Christ

992
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 2: hold pastoral office, and that's okay, Yeah, so I don't

993
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 2: know if that's getting at your question enough.

994
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: No, it's helpful because you know, and I say this too,

995
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: is repentance, confession, grace. They're not a get out of

996
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: jail free card. In fact, you may still have to

997
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: go to jail for the things, yes that you do.

998
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about Brandon Poffer at the beginning

999
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 1: of this. You know, a man, it's like, listen, I

1000
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: serve time in prison, and I deserve to serve time

1001
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 1: in prison. I was sorry, I was repentant. I did

1002
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: what I did, though, and so you know, I think,

1003
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, we opened this up a little earlier that like,

1004
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: confession is hard, right, and there will be some of

1005
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: those who you lose your job. And yet what I

1006
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: hope that people get from this going on the way

1007
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: back to the beginning, is that there is a beauty,

1008
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: There is a freedom. There is a flourishing that you

1009
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: you know, you may not see right now, or that

1010
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 1: may not seem like a possibility now, but confession brings

1011
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: this this life that you couldn't imagine, right, And that

1012
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean like riches and you know all this stuff, right,

1013
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: but it brings a flourishing. It brings in a bidy,

1014
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 1: and it brings a relationship with Jesus that you just

1015
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: can't put a price tag on. And that's been true

1016
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: in my life, and I know it's been true in

1017
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: a lot of other people's lives. Yeah.

1018
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe one other note I would add here, you know,

1019
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 2: connected to your question about a pastor who sends in

1020
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 2: a disqualifying way, I think connected to what you just shared,

1021
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 2: it really does Yeah, I think that's what I'd want

1022
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 2: to say it. It really does grieve me that we we

1023
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 2: so often. And I say this is one who's I

1024
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 2: say we because I think I've been a part of

1025
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 2: this and pastoring Egan Church in North America for twenty years.

1026
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 2: We tend to, I think, far too quickly talk about

1027
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 2: a restoration process for the sake of getting back in

1028
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 2: the job, having the job, getting back in holding office.

1029
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: And I must say, I actually don't think that is

1030
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 2: gracious to the soul that has sent if the carrot

1031
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 2: is dangled quickly that if you do these steps you're

1032
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 2: going to get back in your job. I just I

1033
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 2: think it presents a real temptation. And I think where

1034
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 2: we want to focus conversation about restoration is with the

1035
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 2: body of Christ. And I think with a kind of

1036
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 2: Pauline vision of how to respond to sin that is

1037
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 2: unconfessed in the community, which paul makes pretty clear about

1038
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 2: what needs to be done in Corinthians. How to respond

1039
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,439
Speaker 2: then to sin that is confessed and to receive brother

1040
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:05,200
Speaker 2: sister in Christ and the goal of restoration and right

1041
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 2: relationship with Christ and right relationship with His body like

1042
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 2: this needs to be the I think the focus of

1043
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 2: our energy and caring for those pastors and souls. I

1044
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 2: think oftentimes it's well intentioned, but I actually think it's

1045
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 2: not very caring and gracious to orient that conversation about

1046
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 2: restoration primarily around the vocation, the office, the job, I

1047
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 2: think when that's removed from the table and the conversation

1048
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 2: is about one's relationship with the Lord, one's relationship perhaps

1049
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 2: with their immediate family members that have been infected by

1050
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 2: their sin, if we're talking about in the case of

1051
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 2: adultery for example, or something like this, and one's relationship

1052
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 2: with the Body of Christ. I think there's now everything

1053
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,959
Speaker 2: you just talked about, I think now becomes the focal point,

1054
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 2: which is, let's discover here how the Lord is going

1055
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: to meet you and let us come alongside you and

1056
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 2: care for you, and care for your family for the

1057
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 2: sake of your relationship with Christ, and for the sake

1058
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 2: of your family right and for the sake of your

1059
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 2: spiritual well being, and not even talk about how do

1060
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 2: we get you back in the pulpit or when are

1061
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 2: you going to get back in the pulpit, and how

1062
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 2: might you get back in the pulpit? I think the

1063
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 2: temptation of that, I think, yeah, I think it presents

1064
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 2: a real challenge for a soul that really does need

1065
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 2: to enter into simply what does it mean to meet

1066
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 2: the Lord here?

1067
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to open up a can of worms here,

1068
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 1: especially at the end of the podcast, but I'm just curious,

1069
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: do you believe that there is a genuine path to

1070
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 1: Do you believe that restoration includes a genuine path for

1071
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: pastors who have fallen in those disqualifying since back to

1072
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 1: holding that office. I know we've talked about it's disqualifying

1073
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 1: in the moment and then the what you know and

1074
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 1: they are removed from office. Do you feel do you

1075
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 1: believe that the scripture support going restoring that person back

1076
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 1: to that office when there is genuine repentance. Yeah, I know,

1077
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 1: I know.

1078
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,639
Speaker 2: No, you're fine, You're fine, You're fine. Yeah. I think

1079
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 2: i'd want to say a couple of things here. One,

1080
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 2: we're talking, I just want to acknowledge we're talking in

1081
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 2: very general terms and discernment and disqualification. I take it

1082
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 2: to be, you know, something very specific, and I take

1083
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 2: it to be the charge and task of the elders,

1084
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 2: or the presbyteria, or or whatever kind of ecclesial context

1085
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 2: we may be talking about to discern and to render

1086
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 2: a wise judgment with regard to right. I think what

1087
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 2: I would want to say is, as we pay attention

1088
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 2: to the New Testament and all the ways in which

1089
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 2: the kind of authority of that office is described, the

1090
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 2: responsibility of that office, the expected character that that office,

1091
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 2: and therefore the kind of the presumption of being above reproach,

1092
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 2: if indeed you've been found fit for that office. I

1093
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: often say to my students, it is very hard to

1094
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 2: become a pastor, and it actually ought to be hard

1095
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 2: in the sense of all the things I just mentioned. Right,

1096
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 2: It's about discerning a life and knowing character, and that

1097
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 2: your character has been tested and proven to be within

1098
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 2: that community, both the church community and the broader community

1099
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 2: that the church is within to be above approach. And

1100
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 2: so I take it if one actually meets that that

1101
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 2: standard of discernment and judgment, that it also ought to

1102
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 2: be difficult to become disqualified. Meaning the New Testament is

1103
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 2: clear on this. We don't just kind of take a

1104
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 2: casual criticism over email, right that there's a there's an

1105
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 2: expectation here of credible accusations and who's bringing those and

1106
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:14,439
Speaker 2: how many and so on and so forth. So I

1107
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 2: take it that it ought to be, in biblical terms,

1108
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 2: difficult to hold the office in light of that, not

1109
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 2: easy to lose the office, meaning you're not disqualified because

1110
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 2: we just decided the enrollment numbers went down, you know,

1111
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 2: last year, or we're not we're not sure you have

1112
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: the it factor anymore, or a couple of people complain

1113
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 2: that your sermons go too long or whatever it may be,

1114
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 2: and we kind of chuckle about that. But you and

1115
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 2: I both know, John, some pastors have lost their jobs

1116
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 2: over those things, right, So I think all of that

1117
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 2: being said, I would answer your question this way. I think,

1118
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 2: if indeed you have been found to be disqualified for

1119
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 2: that off, that that standard has been met of discerning

1120
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 2: that indeed, that which was hard for you to receive,

1121
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 2: actually it needs to be taken away. I do take

1122
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,680
Speaker 2: it that that is a kind of fixed reality of

1123
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 2: the vocation, because as I read what it means to

1124
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 2: be above reproach, I take it you are no longer

1125
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 2: above reproach as a result of the sin that is

1126
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:30,640
Speaker 2: in your life. And as Paul talks about one's reputation

1127
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 2: in the community being that of above reproach, if one

1128
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 2: has been found disqualified because of sin, that now is

1129
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 2: actually known in the community, not only in the church community,

1130
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 2: but in the broader community. Right like quote, the public,

1131
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 2: so to speak, is well aware that you are a

1132
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 2: pastor who has committed adultery multiple times with members of

1133
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 2: your church. Well, again, you may have entered into a

1134
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 2: kind of restoration process your relationship with Christ and confessing sin,

1135
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 2: and your relationship with the Body of Christ and a

1136
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,600
Speaker 2: member of the communion and then the fellowship of those saints.

1137
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 2: But would it be reasonable if you were put back

1138
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 2: in the pulpit from members of that broader community to ask,

1139
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:22,760
Speaker 2: isn't that the pastor who commits adultery, and and isn't

1140
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 2: that his reputation? And is that his reputation now in

1141
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 2: the city he's in, and I think reasonably, I think

1142
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 2: it would be. And so as I read Paul about

1143
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 2: elders need to have a certain kind of reputation within

1144
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 2: their community, that's part of being above approach, I take

1145
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,760
Speaker 2: it that once that line has crossed, that line has

1146
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 2: been crossed.

1147
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't mean to spring it, spring that on you, Okay,

1148
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:53,680
Speaker 1: it wasn't a planned question. I just kind of cave up.

1149
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 1: So but I appreciate that. And I'm going to be honest,

1150
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 1: like I'm still trying to figure out where I land

1151
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 1: on that. You know, tell the Indivision has been a

1152
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 1: guest on this podcast, right, and and yet yeah, I

1153
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 1: just I don't fully know, you know, I feel I

1154
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 1: feel like I'm settled on it one way or the other.

1155
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:15,760
Speaker 1: And then I just like, my Lord help me.

1156
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 2: So well, I think maybe my final note would just

1157
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 2: be I think there's reasonable differences of opinion on this,

1158
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, it's going to require some

1159
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 2: interpretation and discernment of how we hold the qualification passages.

1160
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 2: What does it mean to be above reproach once you've

1161
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 2: been found to not be above reproach? Is that just

1162
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 2: true of your life now. And it doesn't mean again

1163
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 2: that you have lost your salvation or you can't be

1164
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 2: a member of Christ's body. But what it does mean

1165
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 2: perhaps is you can't a office. What does it mean

1166
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:53,720
Speaker 2: to say that an elder pastor must have a kind

1167
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 2: of reputation of being above approach within the community, within

1168
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 2: not only the church community, more broadly, is that just

1169
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 2: like an occasion before they take office, or is that

1170
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 2: now kind of true of their life? So these things

1171
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 2: have to be interpreted. That's but I'm giving you kind

1172
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 2: of the way I would read read those passages. Yeah,

1173
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 2: and I think appreciate it. That doesn't mean, maybe my

1174
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:22,280
Speaker 2: final word would be here I have I actually have

1175
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,920
Speaker 2: dear friends who have been found disqualified from pastoral office

1176
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:33,280
Speaker 2: and no longer in pastoral ministry many years later, And

1177
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:35,679
Speaker 2: what I would want to say, maybe my final word

1178
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 2: here would just be it doesn't mean they can't have

1179
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 2: a meaningful, flourishing life in Christ, and doesn't mean they

1180
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 2: can't meaningfully participate in the body of Christ as one

1181
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 2: member of that body. And what I wouldn't I think

1182
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 2: what my warning would be something like this if if

1183
01:14:54,960 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 2: the other said of the argument were to say something like, well,

1184
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 2: if they don't get back that that office, then they

1185
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 2: don't get to meaningfully participate in the church, or they

1186
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 2: don't get to exercise their gifts. And I would want

1187
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 2: to say, oh, well, there, I would just have to disagree. Right,

1188
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:16,680
Speaker 2: there are many more people in the church who are

1189
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:18,720
Speaker 2: not holding that office, and I don't think we want

1190
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 2: to say that they are not essential members of the body,

1191
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 2: whose gifts are critical, who play a vital role in

1192
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 2: the fellowship of the Saints. And so, in other words,

1193
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,519
Speaker 2: what I would want to say to some of my

1194
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 2: friends who have been found as qualified, that they're still

1195
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:38,439
Speaker 2: a vital part of the Body of Christ and we

1196
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 2: need them, and they play a pivotal role, and they

1197
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 2: can contribute just as meaningfully the church. I don't want

1198
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 2: to view the kind of pastoral office as the kind

1199
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 2: of exclusive place where one gets to do.

1200
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: That, right right, Well, Jamie, I appreciate that discussion. I appreciate.

1201
01:15:57,160 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 1: I mean, everything that you are about and that you

1202
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 1: have said is is so good. It's so important. I

1203
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 1: think this book is essential, you know, as I do

1204
01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 1: retreats and as I talk about radical vulnerability, it's definitely

1205
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:15,080
Speaker 1: going to be one of the texts that I recommend.

1206
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate you writing it. You know, it's not like

1207
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:20,439
Speaker 1: you don't write a book on pastoral confession. If you

1208
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 1: want to be a New York Times bestseller, you know

1209
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:24,439
Speaker 1: you do it because God called you to do it.

1210
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 1: So so thank you for writing. If people want to

1211
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 1: grab it where and learn more about you? Where can

1212
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 1: they go? Oh?

1213
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the easiest place to go is you can

1214
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 2: just go to jamingoggin dot com. My name j M

1215
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 2: I N G O G G I N dot com

1216
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 2: and you can find info in the book there, but

1217
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 2: also just other info about retreats I lead and other

1218
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 2: things I'm I'M about and so would love to love

1219
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 2: to hear from you even if you want to reach

1220
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 2: out Conte there.

1221
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:56,679
Speaker 1: And if you send him a message via his website,

1222
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:58,640
Speaker 1: I can confirm that he does get back to you.

1223
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,120
Speaker 1: So it's right. And it was around Christmas time too,

1224
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 1: I think even So, Yeah, it was great Jamin. Thank

1225
01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:07,760
Speaker 1: you so much for joining the podcast. I appreciate you.

1226
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 2: Oh, an honor to be with you. John, grateful for

1227
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 2: the time you.

1228
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 1: See what I mean. Jamen is definitely someone that we

1229
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 1: needed to have on this podcast. I mean to talk

1230
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:22,600
Speaker 1: about confession and vulnerability, and I just love how he

1231
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:26,720
Speaker 1: approaches any topic really where he's not looking to give

1232
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:29,320
Speaker 1: a quick answer, he's not looking to give a SoundBite.

1233
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 1: He's looking to truly pursue it from that pastoral heart.

1234
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 1: And you can tell he's had that for twenty years.

1235
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,840
Speaker 1: And that was even evident in that final answer that

1236
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 1: he gave, which is an issue that I think is

1237
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:41,559
Speaker 1: an important one to wrestle with, the one that I'm

1238
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 1: still fully wrestling with. I tend to lean one way,

1239
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 1: but I'm still not willing to say it's fully settled

1240
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 1: in my mind. But I think in the end, his

1241
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 1: thoughts and his words on confession are really important. And

1242
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:01,639
Speaker 1: so there's so many good like one liners in the book.

1243
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 1: There's so many good one liners in that interview, And

1244
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:06,680
Speaker 1: so please just pick up the book Pastoral Confessions. I'm

1245
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:10,799
Speaker 1: going to be using it as a recommended resources resource

1246
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: on this topic when I talk about radical vulnerability. So yeah,

1247
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 1: go ahead and pick that up. Before that, though, I

1248
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:20,639
Speaker 1: just want to say thank you to everyone who tunes

1249
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:25,559
Speaker 1: in on the regular and has made this podcast what

1250
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 1: it is today. It could not be that without you,

1251
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:33,000
Speaker 1: and so I thank you so very much. You can

1252
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 1: head on over to Christianalcoholic dot com and get a

1253
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 1: slew of resources that align with what I talk about here.

1254
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 1: So thank you, just wanted to just wanted to say that,

1255
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 1: and also a special thank you to our partner Life Audio,

1256
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 1: who makes this possible. If there is just one thing

1257
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 1: that resonated with you, please share this podcast, like subscribe,

1258
01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 1: all those things, but really the most important thing to

1259
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:01,639
Speaker 1: me is if you share it, Just share it with someone,

1260
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:04,640
Speaker 1: even if there's just twenty seconds that you think is

1261
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 1: worth it. Love you all. We will see you back

1262
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 1: here next week.