1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: joined again by doctor Ashisha Varma, and we're continuing our 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: conversation about Biblical manhood and maybe some of the misconceptions 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: that we have about Biblical manhood from differing interpretations and such. 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: Today we're going to jump into a specific text. We're 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: going to look at first Timothy three, specifically Verse Timothy three. 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: We're going to go from verse one all the way 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: down probably to somewhere in thirteen. And in the general 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: idea here is number one that I think these these 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: characteristics that are listed here of overseers and which often 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: translated as deacons, they aren't just male characteristics these are 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: characteristics that are also applied to women in various places. 21 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: And so if we look at a few of these, 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: like above approach, which is one Timothy three to two, 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: we see that also in one Timothy five seven applied 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: to widows, same Greek word respectable, and first Timothy three 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: two is applied to women in one Timothy two nine, 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: it's often translated as modesty. If we look at able 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: to teach in one Timothy three two, that term isn't 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: isn't applied to women, though women are generally described and 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: portrayed as teaching others in other contexts in like Titus 30 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: two three. And so we've got all these different things 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: that are sort of piling up that would suggest that 32 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: these characteristics, this list of characteristics that we're looking at 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: with overseers and diack deacons are not simply male characteristics. 34 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: It's not as if only the males within the community 35 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: need to be above approach or sober minded or self controlled, 36 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: or what have you. And so I think that's important 37 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: as we think about how to apply these into a 38 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: biblical manhood perspective. We'll talk a little bit more about 39 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: that as we go, but probably we want to set 40 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: the context up of what's going on here in the 41 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: first place, and to do that, we need to dive 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: a little bit into First Timothy two. But we're going 43 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: to do that sparingly because First Timothy two really deserves 44 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: its own episode. So maybe I'll hand that off to 45 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: you there, Ashish and give you the hot potato for 46 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: a moment. First Timothy two. What's your perspective on what's 47 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: going on there? And how would that inform with the 48 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: way we need to read First Timothy three? 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, question, Before I get to that, can I give 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: a second, very related sort of preamble? 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: Right? 52 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: So, I think you rightly point out that we need 53 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: to move forward, not making assumptions that because a particular 54 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 2: quality is stated towards someone of a particular gender doesn't 55 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: mean that that's a statement about exclusivity exclusivity toward that gender, 56 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 2: or that all times in places require us to think 57 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: only in terms of that gender. 58 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: Right, Right. 59 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: But I think a parallel, parable preamble would be something 60 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: like being cautious about words and language. And what I 61 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: mean by that is that we tend very easily, oftentimes 62 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: because of historical usage, to read what becomes technical terms 63 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: back into the text. So you know, as if theologian 64 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: Biblical scholars often accuse us, often rightly, of taking the 65 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: word justification, which has its own theological baggage through technical 66 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: conversations quite literally centuries long in the making, and then 67 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 2: going to Paul and seeing the word that is often 68 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: translated as justification to Kaiosune, and reading all that baggage 69 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: back into it, as if all that was what Paul 70 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: was getting at, and then going to say, the Book 71 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: of James, where the word might be used, and reading 72 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 2: it there as well. And the caution here is that, 73 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: first of all, every time Paul uses this word, he 74 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: may not necessarily be saying the same thing, right right, 75 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: Never mind, when James uses the word, he may not 76 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: be thinking, you remember that term that Paul used or 77 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: is going to use in a future letter, this is 78 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: what I write. And when we overread that sort of 79 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: technical language back in, we get ourselves into really just 80 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: we back ourselves into in terms brit of corners, where 81 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: we're now stuck. We're stuck, We're stuck in a jail 82 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: that is a false jail. Right, So, as a mentor 83 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: of mind, once said, find the open door and push 84 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 2: against it and walk out of that. 85 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we can do this with. 86 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: The words that you just mentioned. 87 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: So not only is there the gender dynamic that we 88 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: can be presumptuous of, but additionally we can read a 89 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 2: word like episcopas that's translated sometimes as elder, maybe more 90 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: appropriately as overseer, and diakanos translated as deacon, and see 91 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 2: them as specific offices that the church later comes to 92 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: identify in very particular ways that maybe in the first 93 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: century aren't so clearly defined in that kind of way. 94 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 3: So I think we. 95 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 2: Should we should try our best to try to set 96 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 2: aside these technicalities. And what I don't mean by that 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: is go to your church and say, these are technicalities 98 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: that come much after the Bible. 99 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: They're not from the Bible. Put them away. 100 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: No, I mean there could be good reasons for their development, 101 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: but don't just assume one to one, right. 102 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think to that point, if I can 103 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: add something in there, the translation office of overseer is 104 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: more interpretive than I think it needs to be. So 105 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: to your point of piscopaus. It was Lightfoot in his 106 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: commentary on Philippians in eighteen sixty eight who argue that 107 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: episcopas and the word for elder are largely just synonyms, 108 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: and so there's a different Greek word for elder. I'm 109 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: blanking on what that is right now, but there is 110 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: a different word. And so here when it's translated off 111 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: office of overseer and for Timothy three to one, probably 112 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: a better translation, because office doesn't actually appear right, that's 113 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: a gloss on episcopass. It's probably better just think of 114 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: one who aspires to oversight. It has more that force. 115 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: We take the office out of it. This is someone 116 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: now who is going to be functioning in a socially 117 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: relevant role, let's say, but who may not hold a 118 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: formal office in the way that we think of that today. 119 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 1: So you know, they're hired in by a house church 120 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: and they're appointed to this position and they you know, 121 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: they have you know, job description with roles and responsibilities 122 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: they have to fill. It may not be that. It 123 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: may be more of a position within society that they 124 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: come to embody and fulfill and that is recognized by 125 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: the people in that particular context. But this is not 126 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: like a paid position, a job that someone has. This 127 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: is now a service that they're performing. And Paul is 128 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: trying to scope out if you wanted to be an overseer. 129 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: Here's what your life might look like. And as we 130 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: talked a little bit before the episode, the diacinos often 131 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: translated deacon, but that the acinos is found in places 132 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: like Romans thirteen, where the governing authorities are your diaconos 133 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: for good. They're God's servant for good. That's really what 134 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: diaconos is here. And so we have these two sort 135 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: of an oversight and a servant and they have oddly 136 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: similar qualifications. Was kind of what we talked about beforehand. 137 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's a good move. Let's make 138 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: sure we're not thinking in terms of okay, so what 139 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: should my pastor what characteristics should my pastor have? Yeah, 140 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: they probably should have some of these characteristics, but that's 141 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: not exactly what this passage is on you, right, And. 142 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: I think as we'll see, really maybe we should all 143 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 2: have some of these characteristics. 144 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: We should probably as some of these characteristics. 145 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 3: But more on that later. Yes, so to chapter two. 146 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: I think that's an important way to set up what's 147 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: going on in chapter two as it leads into three, 148 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: because again, it can be very easy to go to 149 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: chapter two and read what on the face value can 150 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: come off as very strong declarative judgments that are law 151 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: like as to what things should look like. Yeah, but 152 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 2: we have to understand that this text, like all texts, 153 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: are written by someone to someone in some place, and 154 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: that's important in some time. Right, So when we're writing 155 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: to somebody in some place, you know, quite simply, if 156 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: we're writing to someone who lives along the equator and 157 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 2: we're riding in a way in which we speak very 158 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: metaphorically in ways that take for granted blistery winter conditions 159 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: that involve snow and ice, it probably just doesn't communicate right. 160 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: Very similarly, someone who grows up in the northern reaches 161 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: of Alaska, for all that TV might help that person understand, 162 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: and there's a very big gap experientially for that person 163 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: to understand life around the equator. Now we have some 164 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 2: acknowledgment of difference and some ability to recognize these differences 165 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: because we live in a very connected world, we have 166 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: an information system. We shouldn't assume that upon the text. 167 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: So when Paul's writing in chapter two to people in Ephesians, 168 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: I think fairly it's fairly easy in our situation to 169 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: jump to, well, you know what Ephesians is going through 170 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: the people in Antioch understand, But I don't think that's 171 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 2: actually a good assumption. And whatever's going on in Ephesis 172 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 2: probably relates more to the place of ephesis. 173 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: Yes, and. 174 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: That I think is the first and biggest thing to 175 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: recognize there. When Paul makes these statements that seem really 176 00:10:53,480 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: strong and straightforward, he knows his place saying what can 177 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: I say to you that matters? 178 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 3: Right? 179 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: Think about Paul's own language elsewhere where he says to 180 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 2: the Jews, I'm a Jew, to the Gentiles, I'm a gentile, 181 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: right to those as under the law I'm under the law, 182 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 2: and those not under the law as if I'm not 183 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 2: under the law, meaning the Torah. So when he addresses 184 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: these people here, he does set up what appears to 185 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: be strong gendered boundaries. Right, he says what he doesn't 186 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: want women to do, he says what he does want 187 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: men to do. But again, if we think about the 188 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: world in which Paul is living more broadly, it's a 189 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:41,599 Speaker 2: world with very careful, very specific ideas of manhoods. So 190 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: when we talked about virtue, for instance, to be a 191 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 2: virtuous person one had to be a man. It was 192 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: a gendered claim. 193 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: Why, well, because. 194 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: There were certain presumptions about a woman, which meant women 195 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: cannot be X, Y and z, But it also meant 196 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 2: certain kinds of men. Right, So the much she's the 197 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: most sort of idea of a man, the strong guy, 198 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: the whole Colgan Randy Savage sort of a person can't 199 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 2: be virtuous either. So it's a very careful delineating of 200 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: that reality. Now one can imagine reactions to that, and 201 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: one can also imagine pockets of existence in this larger 202 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,479 Speaker 2: landscape that don't. 203 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 3: Operate by that way of thinking. 204 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: Right. 205 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: A simple example would be the myth of the Amazons, right, 206 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: where this is a society of very warlike women who 207 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: are able to govern themselves and in fact to the 208 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: exclusion of men, or if there are men, those men 209 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: come underneath them. Well, it shows you the impulse in 210 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: that society of a flipping of the script of what 211 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 2: might normally have been the case. Neither one of those though, 212 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 2: should inherently be seen as the way things ought to be. 213 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 2: But if Paul enters into those settings, Paul's going to 214 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: begin to talk from the basic understanding of one or 215 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: the other. Right now, I think there's good reason to 216 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 2: think that that's exactly what's going on at play here, 217 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: not that we have too much time for it, but 218 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: I had that back. 219 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: To James, I would just say, you know, when we 220 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: look at because I do think again, without getting into 221 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: First Timothy two at the depth that probably deserves you, 222 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: said one thing, you know, he tells women what not 223 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: to do, he tells men what to do. I think 224 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: a lot of times when we hear that in relation 225 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: to First Timothy two, and we're referring to this passage 226 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: of you know, usually we're talking about on Timothy twelve 227 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: or first Timothy to twelve. I do not permit a 228 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: woman to teach or to exercise authority over our man. 229 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: His instructions to men actually come ahead of that. So 230 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: what are the men to do? Here's what Paul says. 231 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: I desire them that in every place the men should pray, 232 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: lifting holy hands, without anger or quarreling. Likewise, also that 233 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and 234 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: self control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls, 235 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: or constably attire, but with what is proper for women 236 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: who profess godliness with good works. Let a woman learn 237 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: quietly with all submissiveness. If you think about what's going 238 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: on there, the men aren't told to exercise authority, right. 239 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: It isn't as if in verse twelve, when we get there, 240 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: I do not permit a woman to teach or to 241 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: exercise authority over a man, Paul is not necessarily meaning 242 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: the opposite that a man is. Now, so then he 243 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: allows a man to teach and to exercise authority over 244 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: a man. He never actually says that what he's prohibiting 245 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: is this very specific practice. And there's some good research 246 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: out there on the authority word authority there. It's not 247 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: the normal excusia that we see translated authority in other places. 248 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: It's actually a different Greek word that normal means some 249 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: sort of a domineering authority. It's it's almost what we 250 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: would use, you know, when we say someone is a dictator, 251 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: even if we're using that in a relatively metaphorical way, 252 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: we mean it as a to have a negative connotation, right. 253 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: You know, a CEO could be a dictator in the 254 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: sense that they're controlling and manipulative and you know, domineering 255 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: in some way, and so that that exercising of authority 256 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: there doesn't necessarily have to mean that men automatically have 257 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: that same sort of license to teach and have authority 258 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: in the way that Paul is prohibiting women. And I 259 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: think it speaks to that sort of situational aspect that 260 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about here. There's plenty of stuff that we 261 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: could go through in this passage, but at the end 262 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: of the day, I think it's worth noting that the 263 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: only instruction that men get here is to pray lifting 264 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: holy hands without anger or quarreling, and that in verse eight, 265 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: and that isn't framed as a command, It's framed as 266 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: Paul's desire. So a lot of baggage there that we 267 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: sort of can import into this, But as we're just 268 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: sort of reading the text as it is, we don't 269 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: have to make those interpretive leaps, and perhaps we shouldn't 270 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: make those interpretive leaps, And so there is a there's 271 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: some real interesting wrinkles there that I think are often missed. 272 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: I'll say it like. 273 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: That, Yeah, well said, And I think that that sort 274 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: of minimal approach to what's going on there without getting 275 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: into the nuts and bolts, which is interesting but for 276 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: another time in place, yes, informs what's going on as 277 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: we get into chapter three that's right, right, Where the taking, 278 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: for granted. 279 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:55,359 Speaker 3: Of a of a male. 280 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: Person, yes, and the description of the episcopas the overseer, 281 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: and then the description of the deacon, it becomes less 282 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: obvious that that's say, what we would call a prescriptive thing, 283 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: that Paul saying this is what it ought to be, 284 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: and it's more of a descriptive thing that he's just 285 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: describing what's going on. So in light of this reality 286 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: and in light of what I see going on and 287 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: the sorts of things that need some sort of fine 288 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: tuning here, now we move into a description of what 289 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 2: does it look like for someone who is an overseer 290 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: and someone who is will say, for the moment deacon, 291 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: though maybe it's not clear that that technical word should 292 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: be what's used there. What you have being set up 293 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 2: now is the presumption that there are those who occupy 294 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 2: different sorts of positions, right, and that's probably a social position. 295 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: One who oversees and one who's a deacon or one 296 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: who serves. These are people who are living in opposition 297 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: to each other, not necessarily conflict, but opposition that one 298 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: is at a higher status than the ones at a 299 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 2: lower status, right, And these are the two groups of 300 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: people Paul seems to be addressing so much as saying, 301 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: these are the groups we should have and it should 302 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 2: be made up in the start of way. Right, it's 303 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: a cultural judgment that already exists, and already exists, likely 304 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: along gendered lines, and Paul's addressing them those who are overseeing, 305 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: here's what I'm saying to you, those who are the 306 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: ones who serve. 307 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: Here's what I'm saying to you. 308 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think there's one other thing I'd say, 309 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: in addition to the prescriptive and descriptive framing, I think 310 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: there's also the possibility within the descriptive for it to 311 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: be a polemic. So imagine seeking speaking into a situation. 312 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: The picture that's coming to my mind is an odd one, 313 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: but the Amazonian island where a wonder woman comes from, Right, Yeah, that. 314 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 3: Could have been my fault since I brought up Amazon's. 315 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: I think it's your fault. Yeah, but you know, I 316 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: mean this is an island where the women are are 317 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: the leaders. They're domineering, they're you know, they have these 318 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: very aggressive tendencies, right, They're running things. And so if 319 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: you're speaking into a situation like that and you want 320 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: to pull that back and correct something in that situation. 321 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: What do you do? Will you address the opposite gender? 322 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: And so I think that's part of what Paul is 323 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: doing in chapter three in shifting into that male, male 324 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: centered language. I think he's creating a polemic and basically saying, look, men, 325 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: you're not to model. You're not to This isn't a takeover, right, 326 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: whatever's happening in chapter two with these women who are 327 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 1: exercising this sort of domineering authority, right, your job is 328 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: not to overcome them through the same sort of domineering authority. 329 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: If you want to exercise oversight, here's what that looks like. Right. 330 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: It does look like domineering authority. It looks like this 331 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: is a noble task. This is being above approach. This 332 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: is being the husband of one mine. This is about 333 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: being sober minded. This is about being self controlled, respectable, hospitable, 334 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: able to teach like. It's about these softer characteristics that 335 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: are commensurate with one that has a hold on the 336 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: virtues of the community in the first place, a certain 337 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: level of maturity that is not unconcerned with's what's happening, 338 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: but who is who recognizes that? As I like to say, 339 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: they may be stirred, but not shaken. Right, little play 340 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: on James Bond. Right, they may be stirred by what 341 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: they see before them, with compassion or concern or what 342 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: have you, like, these are not people who are emotionally void, 343 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: but they're not shaken. Their character doesn't really change. Who 344 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: they are is set and stable, and it's secure in 345 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: this understanding and mature stance within the Lord. And so 346 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: they can be stirred by what they see before them, 347 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: but they're they're going to approach that their concerns in 348 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: a way that is commensurate with the way of Christ. 349 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: And I think that's the interesting sort of through line 350 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: that I see in between feet Timothy two and one 351 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: Timothy three, is that the men are not supposed to 352 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: have this sort of hostile takeover and then be just 353 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: as domineering as these women who Paul is condemning and saying, 354 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: I do not allow a woman to teach and have 355 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: authority over men. They're to exhibit oversight in a completely 356 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: different way, in a way that's commensurate with Christ. And 357 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: in that same breadth, then Paul is going to say, 358 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: by the way, here, here's what a servant looks like 359 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: and they look oddly the same, ol, right, and so 360 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: oversight and servanthood are are almost like two sides at 361 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: the same coin here. 362 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, one could certainly look at them and say, well, 363 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: the list is longer for the overseer than for the servants. 364 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 2: I think that'd be a mistake to read too much 365 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: into that, not least because when you the description that 366 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 2: he's giving for the overseer, you know, statements like be 367 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: so reminded, be self controlled, be respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 368 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not 369 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 2: a lover of money. There's something oddly similar about all 370 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 2: those descriptions, right. It's as if Paul is spelling out 371 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: with specificity things that all belong to the base the 372 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: same basic understanding of character, in a particular kind of understanding. 373 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: You know, if he took Jesus as the model for 374 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: what the truly virtuous person is, the truly high character 375 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: person is, he's parsoning that out in ways that maybe 376 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 2: never have to be said. If you're just looking at Jesus. Right, 377 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 2: when the writers of the Gospels are showing you who 378 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,239 Speaker 2: Jesus is, they don't really need to spell out that 379 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: Jesus is not a lover of money. Yeah, but if 380 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 2: we have this situation where people are coming into the 381 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: church with already this social stratification, where there really is 382 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: those who are the masters, those are the servants, those 383 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: are the overseers, those are the servants, right, it makes 384 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: sense to say to someone who's who's a master an overseer, 385 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: don't be a lover of money. In every bit the 386 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: same way that it's not really a meaningful thing to 387 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 2: say to a servant, not because it doesn't matter as 388 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: a general descriptor of people, but that's really not in 389 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: the social framework of concern for the servant. And unlike 390 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: a society where one might say, well, if you work hard, 391 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 2: whether or not that's true, if you work hard, you 392 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 2: will get ahead, that's just not that society, right, It's 393 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 2: a deliberate, stratified society. 394 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 395 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting that you have this repetition 396 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: of household throughout. So you have it in verse four, 397 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: you have it in verse well, let's see twelve, and 398 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: then you have it again in verse fifteen. The first 399 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: two refer to the households of the one who oversees 400 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: and the deacon the diaconos. But then in verse fifteen, 401 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: you also have the household of God, which is the 402 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: Church of the Living God, a pillar and Butcher's of 403 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: the truth. And so part of I think what Paul 404 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: is doing here again is he's setting this idea up 405 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: of Look, we're in a particular social concept or construct 406 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: right where men normally are going to be the ones 407 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: who are ruling the household, and so that oversight and 408 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: that management of one's household has to be such that 409 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: it's reflective of what you would do in the household 410 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: of God. In other words, this household is not your 411 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: little fiefdom to do whatever it is you want to do. 412 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: In right, it has to carry through the Kingdom of 413 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: God has to carry through even in the way that 414 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: you're managing your own household. I think that's an important 415 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: connection between this whole In this whole section at repetition 416 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: of household, it speaks to an administration. So oukos is 417 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: normally referred to as sort of an administrative unit. And 418 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: I know we're not used to thinking of a household 419 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: as an administrative unit. Although when you have like five kids, 420 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: four kids, however, many kids I have now it starts 421 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: to feel really administrative, right, managing who's going to where 422 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: at what time, making sure they get there on time, 423 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: when you know, when are the acts again, when you 424 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: need to start studying for that are there? You know, 425 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: like there's a million little things to take care of. 426 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: But it's not administrative in the sense of that we 427 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: think of administration all the time. It's a taking care 428 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: of the household and shepherding it forward is probably a 429 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: better vernacular to get at sort of what that OI 430 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: costs would have meant. And so even as we're reading 431 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: through this, I think part of the rationale behind the 432 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: male language is that if the males were the ones 433 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: who were really managing the households at the time, what 434 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: Paul is trying to get at is that this management 435 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: of the household is to be a reflection of the 436 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: household of God. That's how all this is supposed to 437 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: sort of quote unquote trickle down right through again if 438 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: we go back to first Timothy two. That's probably part 439 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: of the problem there is that the domineering of whatever 440 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: women happen to be there at this moment are overturning 441 00:26:54,080 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: social convention in a way that might have implications for 442 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: the Gospel. That's a large reading into context, and there 443 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: are a lot behind that sort of statement. So I 444 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: don't want people to think like that's just a flippant Oh, 445 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: James's off his rocker and he's just throwing things out there. Right. 446 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: There are a lot of things that I'm not addressing there. 447 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: But I think that this it's important just to say 448 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: that as these social things are sort of in upheaval 449 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: in the Roman Empire, right, Paul is taking pains to 450 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: sort of pull them back and say, let's not be 451 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: associated with this sort of social upheaval. Let's show ourselves 452 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 1: to be peaceful, right, Let's show ourselves to be above approach. 453 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 1: Even you have this reference in verse twelve or I'm 454 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: sorry thirteen, for those who serve as deacons gain a 455 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the 456 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: faith that is in Jesus Christ. That standing probably isn't 457 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: just within the community of faith, it's probably also outside 458 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: the community of faith. And so I think there's a 459 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: sense in which Paul is trying to get at sort 460 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: of a corporate witness aspect in the sections that we 461 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: would be wise not to ignore. 462 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, and something that's really instructive in the way that 463 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 2: you describe that. I think that's helpful and I think 464 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: that's right. Is the contrast between the posture Paul is 465 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 2: taking from the location Paul is writing, yes, compared to 466 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 2: the posture that we sort of take for granted. We've 467 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: said this before. Paul is writing as someone who has 468 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: no ability to change the social order. 469 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: That's right. 470 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: This is an empire. The emperor is not elected by 471 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: the electoral college, never mind the popular vote. Yeah, the 472 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: emperor just does the emperor because the emperor has seized 473 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: enough influence in control to be able to to force 474 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: the hand of the Senate of Rome right, and to 475 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: use that to then appoint people to the various districts 476 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: of the empire to do the will of the emperor. Right. 477 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 2: The Senate lives ultimately or exists ultimately at the behest 478 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 2: of the emperor. Because of the power of the emperor. 479 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: The average person like Paul, who's just a citizen, merely 480 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,959 Speaker 2: lives within that state of affairs. It's not an opportunity 481 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 2: to go protest. We live in a time and a 482 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: place of a very different social order where we do 483 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: have the ability to varying degrees to affect some sort 484 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 2: of change, right, And maybe it's a different conversation and 485 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 2: a worthwhile conversation later at some other point to talk 486 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: about how we translate from one to the other. But 487 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 2: again we shouldn't read back our situation into Paul's. Paul 488 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: isn't advocating for the social change, but he also doesn't 489 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: have the ability to affect social change. It's just not 490 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: in his imaginary so within that he can begin to say, 491 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: this is how things are. And in light of this, 492 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: is this being the way things are? What if we 493 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: have a different way of understanding, Yeah, the people within 494 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: this rather than you know, we've talked about the tension 495 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: that you see in Hegel's or in Nietzsche's understanding of 496 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: the master's slave right where the master wants to keep 497 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: the slave underneath him or her, the slave wants to 498 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: overcome the master and flip the script and become something new. 499 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 2: And in Hegel's case, this is just the eternal struggle. 500 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: In Nietzsch's case, this is a struggle we can escape 501 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 2: from altogether and become the true this true superman you 502 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: mentioned wonder Woman. 503 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: We can bring up Superman. 504 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 2: In Paul's case, it's just simply this is what it is. 505 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: And I'm actually going to now within this structure redescribe 506 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: so to the degree that we can speak of male 507 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: and female environment. It's actually the subtle ways in which 508 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: Paul is undermining. Right. He's not undermining by saying I 509 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: can change the system. He's saying within the church, we 510 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: have the opportunity. I like to I like to describe 511 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 2: it as window makers, to be window makers to a 512 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 2: new a new way of being, a more beautiful way 513 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: of being. We're overseers, those with those who have, those 514 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 2: with influence. Right, I'm describing you here in ways that 515 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: are gentle, right, that's his word, not violent, but gentle, 516 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: that aren't quarrelsome that aren't lovers of money. But you're respectable. 517 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 2: You're so reminded, you're self controlled. You're not you're not 518 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 2: marrying for the purpose of status or influence. 519 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: Right. 520 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: We are collecting wives, which is a common thing in 521 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: order to create to create levels of political power, right, 522 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 2: affiliations here instead the husband of one wife, meaning there's 523 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 2: a recalibration here of what marriage is. 524 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: Right, An it's. 525 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: An undermining of the system by describing if this is 526 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: the way things are, here's a better. 527 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 3: Way to do it. 528 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: Can you ultimately see yourselves? As we've talked before in 529 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: the case of interestingly enough, the Book of Ephesians, right, 530 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 2: Timothy's in ephesis, in which those who have are re 531 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: understanding themselves in light of the person of Christ as 532 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: those who actually are servants of the other yeh, right, 533 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: And those of you who are actually servants right. The 534 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 2: Diaconos the First Nations translation actually calls them those who 535 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: have the sacred task of helping others instead of saying, deacon, 536 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: I think that's a helpful way putting it. Those who 537 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: have the sacred task of helping others already do so 538 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: in a way in which you're you're not being dishonest, right, 539 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: It's an easy move for anyone still in this situation, 540 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: you know, to pull a little bit more towards themselves 541 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: to make up for the gap that's substantial he's saying. 542 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: In some ways, he's saying, don't think in those terms. 543 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: Think in terms of how the very work that I'm 544 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: doing can be reflective of the work of Christ, and 545 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: trust that provision will be there. It's sort of the 546 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: idea at play, and I. 547 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: Think one of the more interesting place is to go. 548 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: The least the ones I like to go to to 549 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: illustrate what you're talking about is for Samuel twelve. So 550 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: for Samuel twelve, please tell me. The Israelites have asked 551 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: God for a king. Like the rest of the nations. 552 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: Samuel is totally against this, but he goes to God 553 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: and God says, hey, don't worry about it. They're not 554 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: rejecting you, Samuel, or rejecting me as king over them. 555 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: So first, Samuel twelve. Samuel goes back and he says, Okay, 556 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: God is going to give you a king. Congratulations. Your 557 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: structure has changed, right. Your political system is now no 558 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: longer ruled by judges. You now have a king. Congratulations. Now, 559 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: let me lay out exactly what that means. And he 560 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: says something like this will go well with you if 561 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: you fear the Lord, and the king who God will 562 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: place over you also fears the Lord. It will not 563 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: go well with you if you don't fear the Lord 564 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: and keep his commandments, or the king above you doesn't 565 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: keep the Lord, and it doesn't fear the Lord and 566 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: keep his commandments. And so the interesting part is the 567 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: structure changes, right. There's a big difference between going from 568 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: having the judges to having a king. Right, there are 569 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: dynastic issues, there are centralized rulership issues. There's all these 570 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: different things that are going to change. But guess what, 571 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: the underlying dynamic is exactly the same. In a very 572 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: real sense, nothing has changed. But congrats on the king. 573 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: And I think to a large degree if we can 574 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: think in that category of these structures chain But within 575 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: these structures we act differently. We live according to that 576 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: sort of governing dynamic of understanding. What we're supposed to 577 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: do is we're supposed to fear God and we're supposed 578 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: to obey his commandments. We're supposed to imitate Christ. As 579 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: we get into the New Testament, like these are the 580 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: things that we are supposed to do. We are we 581 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: are a people on a mission of witness and testimony 582 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: to the God that we serve. Now, all of a sudden, 583 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: these structures take on much less importance than we normally 584 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: give them. Right where I sit in some sort of 585 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: weird social hierarchy is far less important than am I 586 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: within the situation that God has put me? Am I 587 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: serving him in an appropriate fashion? Am I still doing 588 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 1: what He's asking me? To do. It doesn't preclude change, right, 589 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't. It doesn't say, hey, these structures should never change. 590 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: That's not the point. But the point is that within 591 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: the structures that we're in, there is often a through 592 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: line of faithfulness that we have to exercise that'll look 593 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: different depending on the structure, but the faithfulness aspect never 594 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: actually changes. And I think that's part of what we're 595 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: seeing here is that Paul is not advocating this structure 596 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: for all times and in all places, but he is 597 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: advocating it for at the very least ephesis. Right he's 598 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: writing Timothy Timothy's an Ephesis, He's at least advocating it 599 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: for ephesis. Likely given some of his other letters, he's 600 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: advocating it for a broader swath of the churches at 601 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: this time that he's writing to. But as things start 602 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: to pivot and change, it doesn't mean that there's not 603 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: a new way of faithfulness that we can envision once 604 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: those structures shift and change. And I don't think they 605 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: can change. It's not as if they're infinitely flexible, right, 606 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I do think that there 607 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: is a malleability appliability to them that allow us to 608 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: be faithful in different ways when those structures of society 609 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: sort of shift and change. So I always like the 610 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: first Samuel example. I think it's a helpful one. 611 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's helpful as well. It's worth noting 612 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 2: that when the people of Israel wanted a king like 613 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 2: the nations, I've often heard it preached in a way 614 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: in which their problem was they wanted a king, but 615 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 2: the Torah had already made provision for a king. Yes, 616 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: the issue there is not the king per se. It's 617 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,280 Speaker 2: like the nations, as you pointed out, and the idea 618 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 2: of giving you a king that's not like the nations. 619 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 3: Right. 620 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 2: What David is for much of but not all of 621 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 2: his term, what Solomon seems to be at the beginning 622 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: of his term but falls away from You see this, 623 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 2: You see the contrast in the relationship of the people 624 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 2: of biblical Israel to not just the surrounding nations, but 625 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: also to the very land. Right, that seems to be 626 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 2: more fruitful and bring forth out of that harmony a 627 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 2: greater abundance during those periods where things are a little 628 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 2: bit better. 629 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: Right. 630 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this, it's this God people land triangle that 631 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 2: we've talked about. 632 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: Right other places. 633 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 2: But what that's supposed to, what that's supposed to set 634 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,919 Speaker 2: up is in some sense a king that's unrecognizable from 635 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 2: the standard ways of viewing reality. It's utterly subversive, but 636 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 2: in a different kind of way, right. And and what 637 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 2: you can see in as a parallel here is that 638 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 2: Paul's not saying I have any ability to affect the 639 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,959 Speaker 2: social change in the way things work, or my job 640 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 2: here is to establish a new world order with a 641 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 2: new political and economic system. 642 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 3: Even if he even if he did. 643 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: Think in those terms, which it's not clear that he did, 644 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 2: he doesn't have the ability to affect that. But what 645 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 2: he does have the ability is to to make this 646 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 2: idea of the one who oversees and the one who 647 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 2: has the sacred task of serving, unrecognizable by the normal, 648 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: dysfunctional or dystopian understanding that he sees around him, and 649 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 2: he sees that as an opportunity to win the Church 650 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 2: of Ephesus. That to your point, he doesn't just have 651 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 2: that for emphasis right, for whatever specifics there are here 652 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 2: for Ephesus, he has that vision in its own way, 653 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 2: for Colossian, for Thessaloniki, and for Antioch right, and for Jerusalem, 654 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 2: he ultimately has that for Rome, right where he goes 655 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 2: to Rome, or he writes to Rome and he wants 656 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 2: to go to Rome, and he wants to go beyond 657 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 2: that to spain. The idea here is that he's attentive 658 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 2: to what the order is and what he needs to 659 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 2: do or what he needs to advocate to to make 660 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 2: some of the usual dystopian understandings unrecognizable. 661 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 1: That's right, and I think that's particularly a play here 662 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: where and this is where. Just to kind of sum 663 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: this up, we need to be careful when we're reading 664 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: these overseers and the deacon's passage not to make these 665 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: paradigms of masculinity. I think two points here. Number one 666 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: is what I would read is a polemic against some 667 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: segment of the women within Ephesus who are trying to 668 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: sort of take over the social order. Paul fundamentally disagrees 669 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: with this move because it isn't commensurate in keeping with 670 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: the peaceable, quiet sort of witness that he's trying to 671 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,800 Speaker 1: affect within the Christian community. There's some sort of an authoritarian, 672 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: domineering impetus, an impulse that he doesn't like there, and 673 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: he doesn't want it in the church. This is not 674 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: the way this is supposed to work. This is a this, 675 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: this creates a bad taste in our mouth. 676 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 3: Right. 677 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: People look at this and they say, Wow, those Christians 678 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: are the liberals. They're trying to destroy Roman society. You know. 679 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: I think he's concerned about witness, and again I think 680 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: there's good reason to think that I would go to 681 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: somewhere like a first Timothy six 's one where Paul 682 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: talks about the behavior of bond servants as potentially reviling 683 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: the word of God and teaching of the church. We 684 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: have something similar in tites to five, where he talks 685 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: about young women acting a certain way causing God's name 686 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: to be reviled. These are real concerns for what Paul 687 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: is seeing, and he's trying to manage the witness of 688 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: the community, probably in the midst of some sort of 689 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: social upheaval. So I think there's that aspect here, and that, 690 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: to me is what prompts chapter three. In chapter three, 691 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: what he's saying is, look, you don't have to squelch rebellion, right, 692 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: but this is what one who oversees the community. He 693 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: looks like, this is what one who oversees you ministers 694 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: within the who as the sacred, the sacred position of 695 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: helping others. As you said, like, this is how they 696 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: look and this is how they act. These are not 697 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: intended as a map for masculinity. These are characteristics that 698 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: the Christian community are supposed to cultivate in and of 699 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: in everyone. And I think he sets these people up, 700 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: the people who want to be an overseer of the 701 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: people who want to serve. These are the sort of 702 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: people that the Christian community is to be cultivating. These 703 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: are the sort of characteristics that they are supposed to 704 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: have together. And part of that comes from managing their 705 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: households well, not domineering their households, dominating their households right, 706 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: but in managing their households well and recognizing that now 707 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: in Christ some things have changed, but we've still got 708 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: to hold this together. This still has to progress in 709 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: a particular way. It still has to be peaceable and 710 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: orderly as opposed to completely out of control. There's a 711 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: lot of texture there in this letter, and we can't 712 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 1: go deep enough in this shorter podcast really nail it down. 713 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,879 Speaker 1: But I think the at the end of the day, 714 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: what we want to what we do want to say 715 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: is all of these characteristics really are most of them 716 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: are applied directly to women in other contexts. Some of 717 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: them are gestured toward another context. And so this is 718 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: not a roadmap for masculinity. This is a roadmap for 719 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: christ Like character, is the way I. 720 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,720 Speaker 2: Would put it right, and some of those other context 721 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 2: you're speaking of our as you said later on in 722 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 2: the same. 723 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: Letter later on. 724 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 2: So it's not as if we're reaching far and wide 725 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 2: to find this. No, what it is is it's a 726 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 2: roadmap for christ Like character, as you said, which is 727 00:43:53,920 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 2: specifically within the constructs of whatever the dynamics are for 728 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 2: Paul to pull people back to this understanding of the 729 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 2: kind of humility that's embodied in the God who didn't 730 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,359 Speaker 2: operate under the under the under the way that one 731 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 2: might assume a god should right coming down and demonstrating 732 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,479 Speaker 2: great power and stomping on people, but rather came down 733 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 2: and took this unassuming position as the son of a carpenter, 734 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 2: walking the streets as a rabbi, rejected by many, accepted 735 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 2: by many others, but advocating going all the way to 736 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 2: the cross. 737 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 3: Right. 738 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 2: It's and it's that sort of mentality he's trying to 739 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 2: draw in to say, ultimately, whether you're a man or 740 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 2: a woman, this is what I expect a view, not 741 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 2: because I'm doing it by myself, but because, as he 742 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 2: again says in Philippians that we keep mentioning, he's wanting 743 00:44:54,160 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 2: us to imitate me, as imitate Christ. And therefore it's 744 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,319 Speaker 2: it's a softening, it's a making unrecognizable. Yes, far from 745 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 2: the sorts of masculine power, or the inversion of that 746 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 2: to feminine power. Yes, And one could imagine the further 747 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 2: flipping back of the script, he's sort of actually cutting 748 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 2: all of that out, saying, consider, consider the sacred heart 749 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 2: and work of those who serve. 750 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that household of God reference in ver Timothy three, 751 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: What is it I'm looking here? Fifteen Verse Timothy three 752 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: fifteen If I delay. He's writing these things so that 753 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,319 Speaker 1: if Paul delays, you may know how one ought to 754 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: behave in the household of God, which is the Church 755 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: of the Living God. A pillar and butter's of the truth. 756 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: And you just sit back and you think about that. 757 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,320 Speaker 1: And then he goes on great Indeed we confess with 758 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: the mystery of Godliness, and he talks basically about Christ's manifestation, 759 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,760 Speaker 1: the flight, vindication by the spirit seen by angels, proclaim 760 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: among the nations believed on in the world, taken up 761 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 1: in glory. It roots this back very much in a 762 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: gospel oriented message. And so the connection between the way 763 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: that a household runs and the Gospel is at the 764 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,839 Speaker 1: very least implicit in this section. I would argue it's 765 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: a little more than that, right, But because it comes 766 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: in the end, it has sort of this inverse argument. 767 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,320 Speaker 1: We kind of like our thesis and then our points 768 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: and then a conclusion. What Paul tends to do is 769 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: he lays all this out then makes his other sort 770 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: of thesis point like, Hey, everything you're doing in the 771 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: household of man, you're supposed to be doing in conformity 772 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,240 Speaker 1: to the household of God, and in that you exhibit 773 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: the Gospel. And so I think there's just more here 774 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: than most of the time many of us would look at. 775 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,720 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, in some of the literature 776 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: I read, at least on biblical masculinity, I see these 777 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,799 Speaker 1: passages come up in alle awful lot with reference to 778 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,279 Speaker 1: what are the characteristics men should exhibit. I don't think 779 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,439 Speaker 1: that's inappropriate so long as what we're really saying there 780 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: is these are characteristics that all people should exhibit, men included, Right, 781 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,839 Speaker 1: So I feel like that was a good treatment. Let's 782 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: leave it there and we'll call it an episode. 783 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 3: Man. 784 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: So thanks everybody for listening, Thanks all hush for being here, 785 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,720 Speaker 1: and we'll catch on the next episode of Thinking Christian. 786 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: Take care everybody. I just want to take a second 787 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership 788 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 1: with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go 789 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith 790 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, 791 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.