1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Danielle Gill. Welcome back to another episode 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: at the Danielle Gill Show. I am so delighted to 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: have you all here. If you've been enjoying the show, 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: make sure to like and subscribe, but make sure to 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: find me on social media. I am at Danielle Desuza 6 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: Gill and all the platforms. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Rumbolt, 7 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: your social ant X. Today we're going to be talking 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: about UFT white racism. We're going to be speaking with 9 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: Jeremy Carl from the Claramat Institute about his book on 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: this subject and about his Senate confirmation hearing. He's gone 11 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: toe to toe with the Democrats on this. Of course, 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: this issue is one that a lot of Republicans didn't 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: really talk about and for many years shied away from 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 1: because it was almost like Republicans, we're trying to play 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: the same game as Democrats, trying to toe the line 16 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: on these issues and be okay with the fact that 17 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: millions of white Americans were being discriminated against. There were 18 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: quotas for Collevilles, as there still are today for college 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: admissions based on race, and we saw this with DEI 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: hiring practices, So we need to dive into this topic 21 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: in more detail. According to Pew Research, Democrats and democratically 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: and independents are more likely than Republicans and Republican leaning 23 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: voters to say that black, Hispanic and Asian people face discrimination. 24 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: Ninety four percent of Democrats say black people face at 25 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: least some discrimination, compared with fifty four percent of Republicans, 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: and ninety percent of Democrats say the same about Hispanic 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: people compared with fifty four percent of Republicans. Eighty three 28 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: percent of Democrats say Asian people face widespread discrimination versus 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: fifty one percent of Republicans. By contrasts, Republicans are far 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: more likely than Democrats to say that white people face 31 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: at least some discrimination fifty five percent versus twenty one percent. 32 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: And you notice that the number of Republicans thing different 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: groups of inscriminated agains. It's largely the same, It's about 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: fifty whereas for Democrats it's very high. It's you know, 35 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: basically the nineties or higher. And what's interesting about that 36 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: is that basically that indicates that most Republicans do not 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: view a lot of groups as a victim group. However, 38 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 1: a lot of Democrats do view other races that way. 39 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: Within the GOP, views of discrimination differ by race and ethnicity. 40 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: Hispanic Republicans sixty five percent are more likely to say 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: Hispanic people face at least some discrimination than do white 42 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: Republicans at fifty three percent. Asian Republicans at seventy one 43 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: percent are more likely than either wider Hispanic Republicans to 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: say Asian people face discrimination, and white Republicans sixty two 45 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: percent are far more likely to say white people face 46 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: a lot, of a lot of or some discrimination. So 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: when we look at this, we see that Democrats' views 48 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: of discrimination against racial ethic groups they vary only modestly 49 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: by race and ethnicity. We see that they in overwhelming 50 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: majorities it's you know, they view black, Hispanic, and so 51 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: groups is being discriminated against. And like I said, when 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: it's in the nineties, it basically means that pretty much 53 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: everybody who's a Democrat believes that you really can't be 54 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: a Democrat unless you believe that. Whereas for Republicans, you 55 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: can say, oh, look, this overwhelming majority thinks is but 56 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: it's actually really about in the fifties, which means about 57 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: half of Republicans think, okay, there's some discrimination here, the 58 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: other half think I don't. I don't really think so. 59 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: And again, that's not just for viewing blacks. That's for 60 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: viewing whites too, or for reviewing Asians or any other group. 61 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: And so I think that a lot of people on 62 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: the Republican side are much more immune from these things 63 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: in the sense that they don't like to say, hey, 64 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: there's this discrimination going on. They may just not like 65 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: to complain, they may just not view things that way. 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: And certainly there's something to be said for that type 67 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: of attitude. But I think we also need to realize 68 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: the facts, and that's that currently in today's America, not 69 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago, but today, there is anti white 70 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: racism going on, and I think a lot of Republicans 71 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: are becoming much more comfortable talking about it than they 72 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: did in the past. So in today's show, we're going 73 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: to talk to Jeremy carl All about this and about 74 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: just how much more difficult it is for a lot 75 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: of young white males, especially today, to get good jobs, 76 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: to get into a good college. And this does have 77 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: a trickle down effect. It does affect the rest of 78 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: the society. It affects the current culture today. So this 79 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: is what's going on today. Again. It's a little uncomfortable 80 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: perhaps for people who are. 81 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: Not not used to having these kinds of conversations because 82 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: they're used to kind of just playing into the lefts, 83 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: the lefts, you know, discussion of all these matters which 84 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: champions every other group except whites, while whites have to 85 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: hate themselves. 86 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: This is ridiculous. We shouldn't have, you know, kids growing 87 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: up today who are white having to hate themselves purely 88 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: because they are white people. So anyways, we're going to 89 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: discuss all this today with Jeremy Carl. This is the 90 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: Danielle Gilshaw. I'm delighted to welcome our guest today, Jeremy Carl. 91 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: He is a senior fellow at the Claremont Institute, where 92 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: he focuses on immigration, multiculturalism, and nationalism. He's studied at Yale, Harvard, 93 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: and Stanford. He's written several books, including Distributed Power in 94 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: the United States, Keeping the Lights On in America's Power Plants, 95 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: and The Unprotected Class, How Anti White Racism is Tearing 96 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: America Apart, which comes out in paperback this year in May. 97 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Jeremy. 98 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me on Danielle Awesome. 99 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 1: Well, I am so intrigued by your all of your books, 100 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: but especially the one about anti white racism. What inspired 101 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: you to write about this because I know the left 102 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: and even some people who are you know, moderators, who 103 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: are conservative, they're not used to the idea of you know, 104 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: white racism. And I think even not that long ago, 105 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: it seems like on the right that was not really 106 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: a major issue people were talking about because on the 107 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: right we were still trying to I don't know if 108 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: i'd say lure in every single group, but it was 109 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: almost like, you know, the left was playing the identity politics, 110 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: and so a lot of people on the right were 111 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: doing some of that because they felt like, Hey, if 112 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: we want to be able to win any elections, if 113 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: we want to be able to play the same things, 114 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: we got to reach every single group too. And I'm 115 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: not saying we don't reach every single group, but I 116 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: think the way we reach them is through our ideas 117 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: and through the power of conservatism, not through just playing 118 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: the same game that the left does with the identity politics. 119 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 4: No, that's absolutely right, and as you know, even recently, 120 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 4: I mean the book originally came out in Heart cover 121 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, almost now, and even when 122 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 4: I was writing it, I was almost a little uncomfortable 123 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 4: in talking about it with people, sort of like, oh, 124 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: can you say that? Can we talk about anti white things? 125 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 4: Is that okay? And really the whole purpose of this 126 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 4: book is just that. And you talked about our ideas 127 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: that we want to treat everybody equally and fairly, and 128 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 4: I think this is kind of a core conservative idea 129 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 4: and that we, in my view, as I document in 130 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 4: the book, we simply weren't doing that with white Americans, 131 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 4: and so I kind of was trying to call us 132 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 4: out on it. And now I think we're seeing in 133 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 4: the Trump administration, with all the work that Harmeat Dyllon 134 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 4: and her terrific team is doing over in civil rights 135 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 4: at DJ, that we're beginning to roll back some of 136 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 4: these discriminatory policies. 137 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 3: But we've still got a ways to go. 138 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, what are some of the biggest I mean, 139 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: because there's so many and I know people feel it, 140 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: but maybe you can give us some concrete examples of 141 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: this anti white racism and just how a greatious is. 142 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 4: Sure well, I sort of divided into two different sort 143 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 4: of forms or maybe even three different ways to think 144 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 4: about it. I mean, there are things that are intentionally 145 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 4: targeted at white Americans. They're sort of and those would 146 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 4: be sort of, well, there's a program or a scholarship 147 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 4: and it, you know, only goes to these groups, and 148 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 4: Whites would almost always be excluded from that group if 149 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 4: they do sort of differentiate by groups. So you have that, 150 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: then you have sort of unintentional things where you have 151 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 4: but that Whites get swept up in them, along with 152 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 4: other groups, usually Asian Americans. So you might have a 153 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 4: certain thing where you're saying, hey, we're just going to 154 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 4: decide this on academic, professional whatever merit with no reference 155 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 4: to race. And what that ends up doing is it 156 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 4: ends up sweeping up White Americans, some Asian American groups, 157 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 4: et cetera, and punishes them because they're performing a little 158 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 4: better on average. And then beyond that, there's a kind 159 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 4: of third category, which is what I call informal discrimination. 160 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 4: So I talk I have a chapter about Hollywood and 161 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 4: the Church as two different chapters of the book, and 162 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 4: where I talk about ways in which I think that 163 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 4: white people are sort of being diminished or disadvantaged by 164 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 4: informal policies that are not necessarily illegal per se, but 165 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 4: they are wrong and they are discriminatory and we should 166 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 4: stop doing them. 167 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, expand on the church part, because I feel like 168 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: in my head I hear the Hollywood part, and I'm 169 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: thinking definitely because Hollywood, Gosh, every single show is going 170 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: to have a black person, an LGBTQ, gay person, you know, 171 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: every single thing. And of course if there's any white 172 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: male in it, he's probably the villain of the show. 173 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: So I think Hollywood for sure they do that with 174 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: the casting. Tell me about the church, how do you 175 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: think the church? And by that I'm not the Catholic Church, 176 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: but would be more anti anti white. 177 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 178 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 4: Sure, and I will just mention before I get into 179 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 4: the Church and Hollywood. One of the interesting things is 180 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 4: people look at that now, but actually we have data 181 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 4: showing that if you go back to the nineteen sixties, 182 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 4: even white people were portrayed on average in less favorable 183 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 4: ways than minorities. Obviously a huge disparity, I mean, you 184 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 4: have everybody in all different parts, but at least statistically 185 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 4: that was a reality. But turning to the church, Vodi Bacham, 186 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 4: who unfortunately left us recently, it was a really terrific 187 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 4: Bible believing pastor who was African American himself actually, but 188 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 4: he wrote what I would consider the definitive book on 189 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 4: this that was called fault Lines, that was sort of 190 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: taking on critical race theory even in the church. And 191 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 4: again with the church, I think we have to split 192 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 4: it up in a couple of ways. There's the kind 193 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 4: of more liberal mainline Protestant churches. Those guys are I 194 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 4: don't want to say they're beyond saving. Nobody's beyond saving 195 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 4: through Jesus period, but maybe theologically I would say that 196 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 4: they've got a lot of problems even before you get 197 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 4: to race, and that they end up having sort of. 198 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: Predictably liberal views. 199 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 4: Where I think it's more concerning and maybe more into 200 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 4: with our world is the degree to which this has 201 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 4: crept into the evangelical Church into more conservative and Bible 202 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 4: believing denominations, and where we have people saying, well, if 203 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 4: I could get a black pastor who is a seven 204 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 4: out of ten, I'd prefer him to a white pastor 205 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 4: who's an eight out of ten. And that type of 206 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 4: favoritism is just unbiblical, and that we see a lot 207 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 4: of things in which also kind of more deeply theologically 208 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 4: individual sin, which would be for somebody who's discriminating and 209 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 4: you know we should call them out on that, or 210 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 4: racism or certainly if they held slaves, is kind of 211 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 4: being imputed to entire groups. And so white people would 212 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 4: be made to repent in a church context for something 213 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 4: that they didn't do or even that their parents didn't do, 214 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 4: and that this is a very unbiblical kind of notion 215 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 4: of guilt. And it's also, by the way, a guilt 216 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 4: that can't be expiated in the way that it's framed 217 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: through our faith in Christ could be less biblical than 218 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 4: that type of a perspective. 219 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And it seems like even just there's like, yeah, 220 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: like you said, there's kind of the informal ways that 221 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: this discrimination happens in their other formal ways like quotas 222 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: and affirmative action and so on. Do you think that 223 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: moving forward, because we have Trump in the White House, 224 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: we have vans, we have I think kind of a 225 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: cultural shift where people are kind of like, we're done 226 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: with this, We're done with just the beating up on 227 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: white people all the time. We don't even just apologize 228 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: for everything all the time, and it's just very tiring. 229 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: So do you think that this is gonna kind of 230 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: be a thing of the past. I mean, I'm sure 231 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: the left hasn't given up on it, right because they're 232 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: still obsessed with woke. I think on the right we think, oh, 233 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, woke is dead or something like that. But 234 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: that's because we have the power right now. What happens 235 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: when eventually the Democrats take it back. I mean, they 236 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: didn't exactly reform their ways, so I don't know if 237 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: it's just that we're living in a little bit of 238 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: a respite right now. How do you read the situation? 239 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 4: Well, that's actually a really intelligent observation, and I'm glad 240 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 4: that you made it, because I feel like there's a 241 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 4: lot of people on our side who are sort of saying, oh, 242 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 4: the woke is peaked, it's going away, it's being put away. No, 243 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 4: we have power right now politically, and so it looks 244 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,119 Speaker 4: a little bit more. 245 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 3: Like it's being put away. 246 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 4: But I think I'm not saying I do think you 247 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 4: can make some arguments that maybe it won't be quite 248 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 4: as ridiculous as it was under say, peak George Floyd era. 249 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 4: But I think when the Left comes back into power 250 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 4: you're going to see a lot of the same which 251 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 4: will happen at some point, very negative trends that we 252 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 4: saw before, and frankly the right particularly, I mean, when 253 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 4: I talk, younger people were by far the biggest fans 254 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 4: of my book. I was invited by students to speak 255 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 4: at Harvard, at Notre Dame, at Davidson, a bunch of places. 256 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 4: Older people in our party are still a little bit 257 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 4: uncomfortable with this type of conversation, and you saw this. 258 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 4: I recently went before the Senate for a Senate confirmed position, 259 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 4: and I took some heat, even from people on our 260 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 4: own side nominally, and I just took tons of heat 261 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 4: from the Democrats. But I shouldn't say that I maybe 262 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 4: took heat, but they were not there to defend me 263 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 4: and my views which are totally non racially discriminatory, because 264 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,479 Speaker 4: I think they're very uncomfortable and waiting into these waters unfortunately. 265 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 4: And again, I think some of our younger congressmen are 266 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 4: much much better on this issue, and some of the 267 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 4: older ones also get it, but there is still a 268 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 4: big generation gap in terms of how we talk about this, 269 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 4: even internally within the GOP. 270 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just so interesting because in some ways, I 271 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: feel like you have the the pundits are kind of 272 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: people who pull people this way in that way. Then 273 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: you have the people, and then when they move, then 274 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: eventually the last stage is maybe some of the older 275 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: politicians eventually they move or you just get new ones 276 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: because they are kind of the last people. In many ways, 277 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: we're corrected by the culture. And it's frustrating because it's 278 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: kind of like, well, you should be on the front 279 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: lines fixing these things first before they get worse, not 280 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: once it's almost beyond the pale and we've already had, 281 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, generations being affected and harmed by this. Maybe 282 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: you can tell us a little bit about like, you know, 283 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: when young people talk about the job prospects, and this 284 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: probably affects a lot of young white males as well, 285 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: but they're very worried about jobs, economy, things like that. 286 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: And I know that as Republicans we want to fix 287 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: a lot of things because we want the economy to 288 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: be better, we want people to have more opportunity, we 289 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: want to fix these things. To what degree can the government, 290 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: if its president all these things, fix these things versus 291 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: how much is it cultural? Is it? You know, businesses, 292 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: because if businesses are enacting DEI that eventually is going 293 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: to happen. Effect. At first, I think people were kind 294 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: of like, you know, maybe decades ago they were like, Okay, 295 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: maybe if you pick one person who was less qualified 296 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: than this other person or another, it's not really in 297 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: affect things. But you keep doing that, and it eventually 298 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: it does where a lot of those people don't go 299 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: to the schools they should have gone to, they don't 300 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: get the jobs they should have gotten, and there's a 301 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: huge effect on the society. And now we have a 302 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: cohort that is, you know, wanting to kind of get 303 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: good jobs out there. So how much is it where 304 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: we can do as much as we can government versus 305 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: just kind of cultural changes. 306 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, Daniell, I mean that's another really terrific question, and 307 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 4: it really does get to the heart of kind of 308 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 4: what the sorts of things I'm trying to do are. 309 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 4: So I think the quick answer is there's a lot 310 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 4: we can do in government, and it really matters. And 311 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 4: that's one of the things the Left was actually good at. 312 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: The reason why we're in this discriminatory environment was not 313 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 4: that people sat up you know, seventy years ago, fifty 314 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 4: years ago, whatever and said, hey, that's what we want 315 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 4: to do. It was just we change the laws, and 316 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: changing the laws ultimately does have an effect over time 317 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 4: on changing the culture. 318 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 3: It changes the people who are in these positions. 319 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 4: There was a really good piece in Compact magazine about 320 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 4: a few months ago called the Lost Generation. They got 321 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 4: a ton of attention that was all about how particularly 322 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 4: young white men had been frozen out effectively of certain 323 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 4: types of elite jobs over the last decade or so. 324 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 4: So I do think that there are things doing things 325 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 4: like getting rid of disparate impact doctrine, doing things like 326 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 4: the affirmative action ruling that we got the Supreme Court. 327 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 4: Law and policy do matter a lot, because there's also 328 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 4: a lot of businesses and groups that are looking for 329 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 4: an excuse not to discriminate. And if we can give 330 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 4: them the oh excuse of like, oh, you know, their 331 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 4: lawyer can say we're going to get sued from the 332 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 4: other direction if we do this, so let's just not discriminate, 333 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 4: then you kind of give them the excuse. On the 334 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 4: other hand, having said all that, there are still cultural problems. 335 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: There's still the cultural difficulty of somebody like me even 336 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 4: coming on and making this sort of argument, of even 337 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 4: saying words like anti white in average Republican spaces without 338 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 4: people being uncomfortable about having that conversation. And so there 339 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 4: is While there is a legal component to everything that 340 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 4: we're doing, and I think that that needs to be 341 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 4: first and foremost, there's also a larger cultural battle that 342 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 4: we need to win, and that's going to be something 343 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 4: that's going to have to happen over a number of years. 344 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. It seems like even with the BLM stuff, 345 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: all the stuff the left is pushing, it's like we're 346 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: over here on one side. It's like totally far removed 347 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: from where the left is on these issues. It's almost 348 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: like we've last complete dialogue with the left, which I'm 349 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: fine with because honestly, there's just no common ground anymore, 350 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: right with at least the majority of the left, because 351 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: they're just they show far radical left and they just 352 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: keep moving to the left. So, you know, maybe the 353 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: old conservatives, I don't know, DAYFK from nineteen sixty or something, 354 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: we can have conversations with, but they are obsessed with 355 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: race still. They still want to push the black stuff. 356 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: We saw Jasmine Crockett when she lost to Tall Rico 357 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: she's claiming it's racism, she's claiming the election was stolen, 358 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: you know. So, I guess on the left it's like 359 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: that works. I guess a lot of people are like, 360 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, we have to you know, 361 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: self flagellate and feel bad for this person. It's like 362 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: you ran a race, you ran against another person and 363 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: you lost. But I think, I guess. I mean, even 364 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: if you look at their representatives in Congress, it's interesting 365 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: because so many of them are LGBTQ or black or 366 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: some other minority group. So on the left, it's like 367 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: they're very just drawn to this because of their ideology 368 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: that they really believe that maybe like those people are superior. 369 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I do think you're right. It's sad. 370 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 4: I mean, I was just looking at this in the 371 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 4: context of thinking about the same question in the context 372 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 4: of this ridiculous rule that the some left wing judges 373 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 4: came up with on an appeals court that said that 374 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 4: this Korean spa in which people are going in naked, 375 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 4: you know, has to let transgender women i e. 376 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: Men go in, you know, be able. 377 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 4: To go in naked to this spa that somehow this 378 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 4: is you know, should be like the law, and the 379 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 4: conservative judge who's dissenting is basically saying, like, how crazy 380 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 4: are you? I can't even believe I'm having this conversation, right, 381 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 4: So I think on race, we're sort of there too, 382 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 4: I think the good news. So I don't know that 383 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 4: there's a lot of dialogue that we're going to have 384 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 4: with the left. But having said that, I think there 385 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 4: is the kind of unwashed masses in the middle here, 386 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 4: and I think that they both basically they're not that informed. 387 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 4: Usually unfortunately, that's how people in the middle usually are, 388 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 4: but a lot of them kind of have an intuitive 389 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 4: sense of right and wrong. They don't want to discriminate 390 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 4: based on anything, you know, they want to treat people fairly. 391 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 4: And what we just have to do is read these 392 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 4: people with the facts and reality of what's going on, 393 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 4: and also by people like us who are a little 394 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 4: bit more on the vanguard speaking out, give them permission 395 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 4: to say, hey, the emperor has no clothes here, right, Like, 396 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 4: it's that there's really some stuff going on that's not right, 397 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 4: and it's okay for me to talk about that. 398 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: And so I feel like ultimately the. 399 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 4: Position that I am sort of pushing is within our 400 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 4: deepest American traditions of how we want to treat people fairly. 401 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 4: It's a good position. It's a position that even if 402 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 4: you look in states like California, where racially discriminatory college 403 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 4: admissions have lost when they've been put on the ballot, 404 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of support for this in 405 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 4: the middle and we just have to make that argument. 406 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 4: That's what I'm trying to do. 407 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, No, that's a great argument. You recently wrote 408 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: an article and quote it Admiral Stockdale, who says you 409 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end, 410 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: which you can never afford to lose with the most 411 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: or with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts 412 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: of your current reality, whatever they may be. So tell 413 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: us why this quote resonated with you. 414 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a quote I use in the Unprotected 415 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 4: Class at the beginning of the last chapter, and I 416 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 4: think it's just I do have that faith. I have 417 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 4: that faith in the American people that they're going to 418 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 4: do the right thing over time. I have faith in 419 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 4: our ideas, that our ideas are correct. I think, most importantly, 420 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 4: as does stock Admiral Stockdale, I have faith in God 421 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 4: that he is going to he's still on his throne, 422 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 4: and he is going to see that justice ultimately reigns 423 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 4: on all these issues. Having said all that, we need 424 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 4: to be very realistic about where we are. We can't 425 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 4: sugarcoat it. 426 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: Again. 427 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: If anybody who watched my Senate hearing can see the 428 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 4: sort of, you know, ferocious way the Democrats sort of 429 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 4: tore into me. 430 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: They don't want to. 431 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 4: Have this conversation because they know ultimately, if the facts 432 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 4: come out, it's a losing conversation for them. So they're 433 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 4: going to try to bully us, They're going to trying 434 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 4: to shame us, they're going to try to guilt trip us. 435 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 3: And we need to be. 436 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 4: Very aware of that we are in a world in 437 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 4: which we're still fighting to get our opinion out without apology, 438 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 4: that we're going to be attacked, that we're going to 439 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 4: be called racist or white supremacist or whatever else. I 440 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 4: just take that as part of the cost of doing business. 441 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 4: I'm willing to be part of that first group that 442 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 4: is charging the machine gun nests and look, I'm going 443 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 4: to take some bullets and that's okay, And I think 444 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 4: that's what being very cognizant of what your current reality 445 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 4: is strategically, but yet we still have to fight with 446 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 4: that optimism and with that faith. 447 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, And maybe you want to talk about this, 448 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: maybe not. But you've gone toe to toe with the 449 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: left in like a sending confirmation hearing. What is that like? 450 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: Most of us have never been in that situation, and 451 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: I can't imagine it's very easy. 452 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it was tough, and it was particularly tough 453 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 4: for me because AI do have this long written record 454 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 4: of statements that the left really hates, and it was 455 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 4: a chance for them to tee off. And I think 456 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 4: the second challenge that a lot of people don't realize 457 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 4: because I got comments later from folks saying, oh, you know, 458 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 4: you didn't You weren't prepared to talk about this thing. 459 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 4: But I been getting instructions from there's a whole confirmation 460 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 4: team trying to work with you, and what they always 461 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 4: say is don't try to win the argument. Avoid the argument. 462 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 4: You know, that's what you're trying to do, because you're in. 463 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 4: For a million different reasons they want you to do that, 464 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 4: but one of which is they're literally the senators are 465 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 4: up on this raised kind of platform and you're down 466 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 4: here and they control the time, and you don't control 467 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 4: the time, You're at a tremendous disadvantage. 468 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 3: In trying to argue with these people. 469 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 4: And so it is tough because I mean, I had 470 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 4: Corey Booker literally just scream at me for five minutes 471 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 4: and I could barely get a word in edge wise, 472 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 4: and you just have to treat it as what it is, unfortunately, 473 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 4: which is it's theater, as my. 474 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 3: Team said, and their theater kids running around doing their thing. 475 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 4: I was very confident in the justice of what I 476 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 4: was talking about, so I just remain calm throughout the 477 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 4: kind of Democrats diatribes. But it is it's difficult, I mean, 478 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 4: and when you're being put in a under a microscope 479 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 4: that's very public and then articles are written about you 480 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 4: and you're not I mean, I'm not a private figure, 481 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 4: for certain, but I'm not a public figure in the 482 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 4: way that a senator is a public figure. 483 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 3: And so it's you know, it is challenging. 484 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 4: You know, people come up to you in church, right, 485 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 4: but again, you have to really believe in what you're doing. 486 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 4: And I believe very very strongly in what I'm doing 487 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 4: and that it's right, and so I'm willing to take 488 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 4: those things and arrows. 489 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And I guess last question is what essiing 490 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: from like personal attacks or I'm diving in and just 491 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: you know anything have you ever said? But what are 492 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: the most powerful arguments if they were to make an 493 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: argument that's kind of like, what do you think we 494 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: need to be contending with on our side? Because we 495 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: can kind of assume like, Okay, we're right, you know, 496 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: we we have the correct position, they're wrong. I guess 497 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: is there anything we should keep in mind in that 498 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: because obviously we do want to went over independence, and 499 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: we do want to also just be completely thorough in 500 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: our viewpoint. Do you feel like going head to head 501 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: with the other side, there's anything that we should all 502 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: kind of like ponder more and not change our position 503 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: just kind of I don't know. 504 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 4: Of course, I'll give you a fascinating example of this 505 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 4: from my own kind of life in doing this in 506 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 4: the book tour. At one point I was on a 507 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 4: podcast with sort of three sort of center right African Americans, 508 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 4: So folks who are basically broadly sympathetic to our viewpoint. 509 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 4: They were not like kind of hardcore fire breathers, but 510 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 4: they were certainly people who were not going to just 511 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 4: scream at me and give me a hearing. But I 512 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 4: think one or two of them were pretty skeptical at 513 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 4: first when I was talking to them, and then I 514 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 4: made a comment that I considered just an obvious throwaway. 515 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 4: And subsequently, after the interview, you know, one of the 516 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 4: women mentioned to me, she said, you know, when you 517 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 4: did that, it totally changed the tenor of the conversation. 518 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 4: And what I said was, I'm in no way denying 519 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 4: that there are other very serious forms of discrimination against 520 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 4: other racial groups happening in America today, nor that in 521 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 4: the past, obviously we had very severe anti black racism, 522 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 4: anti other minority groups racism, and that we appropriately had 523 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 4: to address those. Now I consider that just so obvious 524 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 4: a comment that I almost didn't even feel like I 525 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,719 Speaker 4: needed to say it. Right, of course that was going on, 526 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 4: and of course there's still other types of racial discrimination 527 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 4: going on. But when you come in from my perspective 528 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 4: making my argument, some people think that you somehow are 529 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 4: denying that history or even denying certain things that are 530 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 4: going on in the present. And so I think, without 531 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 4: changing our arguments at all, if we just acknowledge that 532 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 4: those realities did exist in the past and that some 533 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 4: of them exist to some degree currently. It opens up 534 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 4: a space where people who are sort of in that 535 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 4: centrist place can listen to us, can hear what we 536 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 4: have to say, and then really engage with it. 537 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, yeah, it must be. There must be so 538 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: much big news out there, because if you're liberal and 539 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: you only listen to MSNBC, I guess you must think 540 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: that everyone on the other side just like never thought 541 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: there was any you know, I Thinkfrikan history. They never 542 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: heard of the Civil War or something. It's kind of 543 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: like one of the lefts like we have to take 544 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: these these these things in school. I'm like, people already 545 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: learn about you know, Lee Abraham Lincoln in school. It's 546 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: not like they have never heard of these things. So 547 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: that is that is very interesting. Well, Jeremy, I appreciate 548 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: you joining us today. I appreciate what you're doing. And yeah, 549 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: make sure you guys go check out his book, which 550 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: is coming out soon in the paperback form. So Jeremy, 551 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: thanks for being here. 552 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. 553 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: Well, that wraps up today's show. If you enjoyed the show, 554 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: make sure to like and subscribe to the podcast. Would 555 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: love to have you all back for the next show. 556 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: We are going to have a great show next time, 557 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: and make sure to find me on social media at 558 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: Danielle DeSUS a gel. I post a lot on Facebook, 559 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: I have Instagram, I am tweeting x and have true 560 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: Social Rumble YouTube, so make sure to find me on 561 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: there and I'll see you guys next time.