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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you can care deeply about something and still feel

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Speaker 2: unsure what to do with it. You hear stories, you

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Speaker 2: see headlines. You know it matters, but it can feel

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Speaker 2: far away from your everyday life, and if you're honest,

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Speaker 2: it's easier to stay there than to move closer. But

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Speaker 2: every once in a while you meet someone whose life

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Speaker 2: has been shaped by choosing not to look away. Hello friends,

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Speaker 2: I'm Jem Faddling and this is the Unheard Living Podcast

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Speaker 2: where we inspire you to rest deeper, live fuller, and

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Speaker 2: lead better. Today I'm sitting down with Heather Rice Minus,

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Speaker 2: President and CEO of Prison Fellowship, whose work has been

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Speaker 2: shaped by a willingness to stay close to people and

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Speaker 2: situations that are often overlooked. After a word from our sponsor,

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Speaker 2: will dive into our conversation for today. As you'll listening

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Speaker 2: to this podcast, I'd love for you to follow us.

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Speaker 2: It's free and it helps Unheard Living be discovered by

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Speaker 2: more people. Today, I'm joined by Heather Rice Minus, President

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Speaker 2: and CEO of Prison Fellowship. Heather has spent years working

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Speaker 2: at the intersection of faith, justice and incarceration. From helping

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Speaker 2: shape advocacy efforts like the First Step act to leading

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Speaker 2: one of the most influential prison ministries in the world.

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Speaker 2: In this conversation, we talk about what she's learned from

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Speaker 2: those who are incarcerated, all proximity to suffering shapes our

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Speaker 2: understanding of God and what it looks like to lead

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Speaker 2: with faith in complex and often polarized spaces. Enjoy my

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Speaker 2: conversation with Heather Well, Heather Rice Minus, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being on the Unheard Living podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to talk today, of course about your

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Speaker 2: work with Prison Fellowship, which is a decades How old

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Speaker 2: is Prison Fellowship.

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Speaker 1: This is actually our fiftieth year anniversary twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Fifty years. Well, that's probably why we're talking then, to

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Speaker 2: have it just a celebration all year long for what

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Speaker 2: Prison Fellowship has done over the decades. But I wanted

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Speaker 2: to also not only talk about your ministry, but we're

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Speaker 2: going to also talk a little bit about leadership later on,

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Speaker 2: just because it's wonderful to talk about what unhearad leadership

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Speaker 2: might look at at your level. But I wanted to

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Speaker 2: start maybe in a different way here. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: ask more personally, you know, before we talk about your work.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to hear how you are connecting with God

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Speaker 2: in this season. What has been forming you personally and

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Speaker 2: in your leadership role.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Jim. Yeah, So, I would say one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest things this season has been spending more time

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Speaker 1: listening to God's Word. And so I have a new

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Speaker 1: Bible reading plan I've been doing, and what's been most

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Speaker 1: exciting about it is that it is being done in community,

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Speaker 1: so small group of us. I was invited by a

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Speaker 1: friend who knows both me and my husband to join

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Speaker 1: the Bible reading plan and we actually play it aloud

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Speaker 1: to listen to it during the day. And then the

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Speaker 1: idea is that you're on the same plan with another

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Speaker 1: small group of people, so that you know, you can

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Speaker 1: encourage one another to keep up, you can talk about

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Speaker 1: what you're learning. And it's also pulling from not only

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Speaker 1: every time I listen the Old Testament and New Testament

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Speaker 1: and a psalm or proverb at the end, so you know,

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Speaker 1: hearing from from every section of the Word, but it's

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Speaker 1: also big chunks of scripture and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, we can meditate, or at least

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Speaker 1: I can speak for myself. I can meditate on a

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Speaker 1: verse or two without seeing maybe the fuller context, or

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Speaker 1: even seeing some of the context that overlaps from the

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Speaker 1: Old to New Testament. And so that's that's been really

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Speaker 1: informational for me this year and something that I'm enjoying

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Speaker 1: and seeing new facets of who God is and who

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Speaker 1: God wants me to be through that process.

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Speaker 2: That's so good. I think you're right sometimes it is.

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Speaker 2: It's unique to get a sweeping feel for what's going on.

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Speaker 2: I love listening to scripture. I'll do that often just

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Speaker 2: using the Bible app. You know, they have the option

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Speaker 2: to listen, and you can listen to an entire like

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Speaker 2: the Book of Ephesians, right, or the Book of Galatians,

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Speaker 2: and you just get a whole different feeling than when

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Speaker 2: you're frilling down into one verse.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I love the Bible app. And then this one

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Speaker 1: I've been doing through an app called Public Reading of Scripture,

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Speaker 1: and it's got traumatized audio, so there's even a little

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Speaker 1: bit more to it in terms of picturing yourself there

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Speaker 1: hearing the sounds you might hear if you were there

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Speaker 1: in real time. And so that's been neat too. Something

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Speaker 1: I've never done before that is cool.

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Speaker 2: I just wrote down public reading of scripture. I've never

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Speaker 2: heard of that app before.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's an app available for free. It's a

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Speaker 1: great resource.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. Well, that's nice to hear,

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Speaker 2: just a little bit of what is filling you and

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Speaker 2: forming you these days. Maybe we could just jump into

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Speaker 2: the conversation about your leadership role there. I'm wondering what

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Speaker 2: was your first sense of moving into this space of

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Speaker 2: justice in prison ministry, and then maybe end up with

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Speaker 2: how did you end up at prison Fellowship?

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Speaker 1: Yes, so not what I would have set out to do.

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Speaker 1: As one can imagine, most don't wake up and say

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Speaker 1: I really want to end up doing prison ministry. But

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Speaker 1: God often pulls people in and once you're in, you

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Speaker 1: can't go back. It's a beautiful thing. But for me,

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Speaker 1: the story is that I actually was interested in going

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Speaker 1: to law school to study adoption in foster care policy.

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Speaker 1: Was kind of the goal at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: was to work in that space, have a big heart

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Speaker 1: for that remains a point of passion for me personally.

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Speaker 1: Our youngest daughter is adopted from the foster care system,

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Speaker 1: and certainly there's a lot of overlap between foster care

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Speaker 1: and the prison system and the kids who have incarcerated parents.

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Speaker 1: But as I was starting law school Jim, I found

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Speaker 1: myself wondering why I was putting myself through this very

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Speaker 1: gruelling experience and studying things like civil procedure and contracts

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Speaker 1: that I didn't necessarily see using in the form of

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Speaker 1: policy and law that I planned to go into. And

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Speaker 1: so I thought to myself, let me work somewhere part

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Speaker 1: time that reminds me of what I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: able to do and the people I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: able to help. And just as I applied to different roles,

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Speaker 1: nothing really opened up in the space of child welfare,

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Speaker 1: and so I found role first helping with some events

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Speaker 1: to convene the faith community for a small nonprofit and

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Speaker 1: they were doing work on actually detaining treatment. And as

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Speaker 1: I began to work there and worked my way up,

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Speaker 1: they asked if I would take over a portfolio they

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Speaker 1: were opening into prison conditions, and unfortunately, it was really

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Speaker 1: the first time I thought deeply about prison. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in the suburbs of Virginia, didn't have my immediate

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Speaker 1: family affected by incarceration. But the more I started researching

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Speaker 1: the length of sentences people have for the same crimes

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Speaker 1: they committed decades ago for much shorter sentences. The conditions

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Speaker 1: of confinement, things like holding people in solitary confinement for

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Speaker 1: twenty three hours a day in a cell, only getting

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Speaker 1: out an hour to exercise, and sometimes that's still in

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Speaker 1: isolation without people just in a bigger space to exercise.

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Speaker 1: Things like shackling pregnant and laboring incarcerated mothers. The more

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Speaker 1: I started looking at this, the more I felt compelled

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Speaker 1: as a believer that I could not look away. And

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Speaker 1: so that's how I grew passionate about the issue. It's

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Speaker 1: when I sensed calling towards it, and in the course

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Speaker 1: of working with that organization, I started to work in

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Speaker 1: coalition with Prison Fellowship, and I thought to myself, I'm

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Speaker 1: now passionate about this issue, and how amazing would it

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Speaker 1: be to one day work for an organization that is

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Speaker 1: working on these issues from my faith perspective and is

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Speaker 1: also influential given our history, given that we were founded

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Speaker 1: by Chuck Coulson, and given that we do direct prison

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Speaker 1: ministry work as well as do advocacy, and so that's

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Speaker 1: what drew me to Prison Fellowship.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. I have to confess. I did listen to

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Speaker 2: another interview just to get to know you a bit.

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Speaker 2: I watched it on YouTube, and I was really compelled

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Speaker 2: by all the story that you shared of your interactions

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Speaker 2: with people in prison and the surprising interactions. And so

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping some of these stories are going to pop

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Speaker 2: up as we're talking, because you know, God prompted your

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Speaker 2: heart as you just sort of learned about the conditions,

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Speaker 2: but then you've gone in and you've actually spent time.

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Speaker 2: So I'm wondering, can you share with us a little bit,

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Speaker 2: you know, what have you learned about people about God

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Speaker 2: just by visiting those who are incarcerated?

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Speaker 1: Yes? So, you know, my role at Prison Fellowship started

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Speaker 1: on the public policy team, so a lot of my

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Speaker 1: time I've now been here over over thirteen years, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of my initial time at Prison Fellowship was

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Speaker 1: spent outside the prison walls advocating and even you know,

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Speaker 1: the next thing I moved into was around caring for

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Speaker 1: families impacted by incarceration. But as I was considering, you know,

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Speaker 1: putting my name in the hat for this role of

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Speaker 1: leading the ministry, and as that became more clear that

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Speaker 1: that was potential to happen. I wanted to spend more

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Speaker 1: and more time in prison, really seeing our programs in prison,

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Speaker 1: really seeing the people that we get a chance to

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Speaker 1: have ministry with, and let me tell you it is

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Speaker 1: such a joy and such a privilege. And I'll share

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Speaker 1: a story to that end. I went on a fact

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Speaker 1: finding trip in anticipation of stepping into leadership and went

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Speaker 1: down to Alabama. And Alabama's a special place for prison fellowship.

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Speaker 1: It's actually where Chuck Colson was incarcerated in a federal

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Speaker 1: prison there when he was behind bars. It's also the

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Speaker 1: birthplace of our largest program, Angeltry, which serves children of

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Speaker 1: the incarcerated. Because there was a woman, Mary kay Heard,

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Speaker 1: who went to prison for her involvement with some robberies.

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Speaker 1: She could really crack a safe. She was actually on

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Speaker 1: the FBI's ten most wanted list, and she in this

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Speaker 1: state prison in Alabama called Julia Tutwiler. And while she

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Speaker 1: was there is where she would notice how the women

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Speaker 1: would do anything they could to pull something together for

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Speaker 1: their children at Christmas time, even if it was that

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Speaker 1: the soaps that they could get from a commissary, just

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Speaker 1: to let them know I have not forgotten you. Your

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Speaker 1: mama loves you. And so that's what gave her the

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Speaker 1: idea post to release to start the Angeletry program. And

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Speaker 1: since then, Mary Kay has passed away, but I know

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Speaker 1: she would be so thrilled and amazed that the program

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Speaker 1: continues and now serves over two hundred and seventy thousand

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Speaker 1: children with an incarcerated mom or dad every year. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm down in Alabama and I actually get the

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Speaker 1: chance to go to this very prison, Julia Tutwiler, and

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Speaker 1: I'm invited in by some of our church partners at

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Speaker 1: Church of the Highlands, and they actually run a Bible

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Speaker 1: study at this women's prison for women on death row,

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Speaker 1: and they invite me to come with them. And by

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Speaker 1: then I had visited death row before, but never a

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Speaker 1: woman's death row. And so I'm just very much kind

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Speaker 1: of trying to prepare my heart for the somber feeling I'm,

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Speaker 1: you know, sentiment I think I'm going to have going

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Speaker 1: into this place, and just trying to mentally prepare for that.

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Speaker 1: And they take us to this little room for the

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Speaker 1: Bible study, and I remember I'm kind of taking a

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Speaker 1: deep breath because each each woman that they bring a

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Speaker 1: shackle and they're unshackling her to come into this room,

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Speaker 1: and we've got some fruit for them, and we've got

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Speaker 1: our bibles. And each one of them is just so

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Speaker 1: filled with joy, and their expressions are are just so

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Speaker 1: radiant as they walk into this room. They're excited to

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Speaker 1: see these women who invest in their lives. They're excited

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Speaker 1: to be together because you know, mind you normally they're

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Speaker 1: each in their own individual sells, and so they get

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Speaker 1: to be together, you know, in person in this room

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Speaker 1: and with the ladies, and they're making jokes with each other.

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Speaker 1: They clearly have built up just such a camaraderie and

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Speaker 1: community amongst each other. And the revelations that they have

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Speaker 1: about the scripture that we're studying together are just profound.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, I'm starting to realize and pick up,

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. You know, out of almost all these ladies,

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Speaker 1: almost all of them have put their faith into Jesus,

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Speaker 1: and so they have an eternal perspective. And that's what

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Speaker 1: I learned, is I asked them in closing, you know,

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Speaker 1: what gives you hope? And each one of them had

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Speaker 1: very eternally focused anthers, things like being with Jesus one

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Speaker 1: day that I'm forgiven, and so I just walked out

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Speaker 1: of there being so pleasantly surprised by what the Lord

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Speaker 1: can do. Even with some of the people in this

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Speaker 1: world who are perhaps considered condemned, throwaway, forgotten, the Lord

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Speaker 1: is using them and he's also giving them new perspective.

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Speaker 1: And then Jim, after we finished that Bible study, we

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Speaker 1: got the chance to go to the chapel with the

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Speaker 1: general population of women, and so I walk in and

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Speaker 1: I find a seat, and I'm talking to this woman

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Speaker 1: in front of me who's older, and she's actually sharing

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Speaker 1: with me that she was once on death row herself,

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Speaker 1: and due to the circumstances of her case, she was

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Speaker 1: able to get off of death row and now she's

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Speaker 1: in general population. She's participating in Prison Fellowship's Grow program

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Speaker 1: at this prison. And she also shared with me that

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Speaker 1: she was incarcerated alongside Mary Kay Beard, so she was

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Speaker 1: friends and new Mary Kay. And so then we start

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Speaker 1: to worship together, and I'm thinking to myself, here I

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Speaker 1: am standing next to someone and maybe standing on the

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Speaker 1: very ground you know Mary Kay worshiped in who started

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Speaker 1: this program that continues today and has made an impact

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Speaker 1: for to my family and I get to volunteer through it,

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Speaker 1: and we're all raising our hands and I'm just listening

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Speaker 1: to these women and they're just crying out to the Lord.

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Speaker 1: There's just nothing like worship in prison. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's because Jim, people in prison have a profound understanding

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Speaker 1: of grace and a profound appreciation for it in a

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Speaker 1: way that I think sometimes those of us on the

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Speaker 1: outside can miss. And I'm asking the Lord to just

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Speaker 1: give me revelation, and I felt the Holy Spirit speak

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Speaker 1: to me in that moment, and that night in my journal,

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Speaker 1: I came home and I wrote down with the Lord

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Speaker 1: put on my heart, which was essentially that you'll never

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Speaker 1: understand the depth of their devotion, but you get to

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Speaker 1: reap the reward of their costly surrender. And that has

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Speaker 1: carried with us at Prison Fellowship. From that moment, I

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Speaker 1: felt that the Lord was giving us a new mission

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Speaker 1: and vision, which we the next year adopted at Prison

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Speaker 1: Fellowship and it was voted on unanimously by our board.

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Speaker 1: And the first piece of that is a mission of

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Speaker 1: encountering Jesus with those impacted by incarceration, and of course

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Speaker 1: Jesus is front and center. That's important in our mission statement.

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Speaker 1: But another word that might get missed encountering Jesus with

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Speaker 1: those impacted by incarceration, And what we have realized in

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Speaker 1: fifteen years is that there is so much mutuality in ministry.

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Speaker 1: There is so much those of us who come to

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Speaker 1: visit and volunteer learn from the church inside and learn

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Speaker 1: from their faith and devotion, and we get to reap

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Speaker 1: the reward of their costly surrender, right. And so that's

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Speaker 1: a big part of what we believe at Prison Fellowship

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Speaker 1: and how we posture ourselves in ministry. And then our

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Speaker 1: vision is revival of the church inside and outside prison

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Speaker 1: to bring justice, mercy and hope to our culture. And

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Speaker 1: we're very intentional that we're saying, you know, revival of

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Speaker 1: the church not just inside prison, but we actually believe

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Speaker 1: that as we bring the church outside local congregations, outside

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Speaker 1: proximate to those believers who are following Jesus inside prison,

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Speaker 1: that it will revive their faith as well. And revival

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Speaker 1: doesn't stay within. It overflows and overflows to justice, mercy

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Speaker 1: and hope and just being a consistent witness in our culture.

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Speaker 2: Wow wow, Well, thank you so much for sharing all

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Speaker 2: of that. It does make me think about the grace

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Speaker 2: you're describing other the it's more in their face. I

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Speaker 2: guess that they are in the need of grace and

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Speaker 2: the forgiveness that you spoke of the women on death Row.

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Speaker 2: And some times I forget how in need I am

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Speaker 2: because I live a relatively cushy life, right I'm living

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Speaker 2: a suburban life, and sometimes it's just easy to forget

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Speaker 2: the depth of my need of that grace and forgetness.

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Speaker 2: I lose connection with the day to day reality, noess

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Speaker 2: of that, And I'm so inspired to hear their vibrant

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Speaker 2: their vibrant faith. It's it's surprising, but it's not surprising.

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Speaker 2: Right when your push comes to shove. They know why

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Speaker 2: they're there, they know what's going on in their life.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes I think we just all get too distracted

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Speaker 2: and there's so many things going on, and like I said,

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Speaker 2: it's so cushy. You know, you're not forced unless something

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Speaker 2: really distressing happens. You're not forced into that search for

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Speaker 2: that deep, abiding grace.

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Speaker 1: That's so good and it reminds me of and I've

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Speaker 1: shared this passage sometimes when I'm speaking in presence, is

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Speaker 1: you know, Jesus is the parable of a master who

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Speaker 1: has two servants, and he or he or a money

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Speaker 1: lender who has two people he lends money to, right,

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Speaker 1: and one of them gets forgiven a larger debt than

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Speaker 1: the other one, And so he asks, you know, who

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Speaker 1: will love love him more? And you know, he shares

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Speaker 1: that the one who is forgiven more is going to

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Speaker 1: love more. Right. And to me, it's such a parallel

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Speaker 1: picture to what I experienced when I go into prison.

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Speaker 1: I want to hang out with people who love Jesus

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Speaker 1: much because they understand the depth of what the Lord

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Speaker 1: has done for them. And sometimes when you feel like

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Speaker 1: you've hit rock bottom and you've made some really terrible choices,

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Speaker 1: it's much more prominent to you how good God is.

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Speaker 1: And I want to be around people who love love much. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so inspiring will continue after the break. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering as well, what it's like for you to lead,

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Speaker 2: to lead the organization, but just to lead in spaces

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Speaker 2: also that are complex, maybe polarizing, lots of things going on.

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Speaker 2: What's it like for you to be a leader, And

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Speaker 2: do you do any leadership development within your organization within prisons?

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Speaker 2: What does all of that look like?

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Speaker 1: Yes? So for me, I went on quite a journey

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Speaker 1: before stepping into this role that I thought was really

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Speaker 1: helpful for me in terms of leadership development. In fact,

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Speaker 1: my predecessor, James Ackerman, he realized that the Lord was

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Speaker 1: calling him for a season at Prison Fellowship. He was

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Speaker 1: with us for eight years. You know, I think really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed his time here and did so much for the ministry,

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Speaker 1: but actually had had a word spoken to him that

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Speaker 1: kind of confirmed his own feelings by a guy in

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Speaker 1: prison who shared shared with him kind of a prophetic

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Speaker 1: word where he just said, I think the Lord has

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Speaker 1: brought you in for a purpose, and he's raising up

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Speaker 1: someone else, you know, behind you. And he actually said

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Speaker 1: in that moment he was already picturing me. And then

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Speaker 1: he very intentionally assigned me a leadership coach, which was

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Speaker 1: our board chair at the time, who was a professional

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Speaker 1: leadership coach and is still on our board. And I

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Speaker 1: thought to myself, well, his name is Carl Dill. I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm just going to be really honest with Carl,

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Speaker 1: because the reality is I love what I do right now,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Heaven forbid that I take on something

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Speaker 1: that I don't have capacity for and then I stop

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Speaker 1: and joining my job, right, And a big part of

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Speaker 1: that is I kind of love being in the mix

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Speaker 1: of things. I loved working with legislative staff and broker

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Speaker 1: and compromises on language and just being right at kind

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Speaker 1: of the front lines of things. And of course you

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Speaker 1: got to step back and see the bigger picture and

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Speaker 1: be able to take on more and equip other people

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Speaker 1: if you're going to lead. And so I remember, though,

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Speaker 1: having this call as I was working on all those

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Speaker 1: things with Carl stepping into greater responsibility, and I remember

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Speaker 1: calling Carl and saying, I just had the best meeting

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Speaker 1: with you know, my one of my then direct reports,

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Speaker 1: and he's just doing incredible work. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: thought I would miss getting to do what he does,

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Speaker 1: but he's actually doing it in many ways better than

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Speaker 1: I ever could. And I'm just so thrilled to see

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Speaker 1: how the Lord's using him. And then talking about another person,

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Speaker 1: and Carl stop me at the end and he just said, Heather,

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Speaker 1: do you realize how big this is? You know, like

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Speaker 1: you have identified that you actually enjoy equipping others and

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Speaker 1: if you didn't like this wouldn't be the job for you, right,

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Speaker 1: And so it was sort of this light bulb moment

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Speaker 1: that as much as I enjoyed kind of being in

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Speaker 1: the trenches and working on the front lines, I really

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Speaker 1: did enjoy empowering people with your competent and that God

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Speaker 1: was going to use in mighty ways. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: so grateful for that coaching that I've had. I have

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Speaker 1: a wonderful board and Carl's mantra has always been, as

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Speaker 1: a board, we want to be a success partner to Heather,

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Speaker 1: and that's what they call themselves is my success partners.

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Speaker 1: And I have another board member who now meets with

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Speaker 1: me quarterly. I make my own personal goals in addition

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Speaker 1: to my professional goals that she checks in on me

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Speaker 1: with and we pray together. And so that's just been

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Speaker 1: a really healthy process and I think important for me

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Speaker 1: as a leader as well. And on the day to day,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's never a dull moment, is

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Speaker 1: for one always going from thing to thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, in any given day, I could be talking

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Speaker 1: to a financial partner of the ministry sharing the impact

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Speaker 1: of their giving. I could be on a podcast. I

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Speaker 1: could be heading to Capitol Hill still to meet with

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Speaker 1: lawmakers or to testify. I could be visiting prison for

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Speaker 1: an event and speaking to those inside. And so I

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Speaker 1: love the versatility of my job and definitely keeps me

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Speaker 1: on my toes, but I love that I still wake

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Speaker 1: up and love what I get to do every day.

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Speaker 1: And the people that we have working at Prison Fellowship.

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Speaker 1: We have almost three hundred staff, and the people we

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Speaker 1: have working here are incredible. So many of them have

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Speaker 1: given up sacrificially to work at Prison Fellowship, have such

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Speaker 1: a heart for what we do. And we also have

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Speaker 1: a good percentage of our staff who have themselves experienced

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Speaker 1: being incarcerated, and their witness and testimony and they're living

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Speaker 1: out their second chance story is inspirational, not just to

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Speaker 1: those in prison, but to all of us. So there

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Speaker 1: are hard days, for sure. There are hard decisions, lonely decisions,

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Speaker 1: for sure, but there's also a lot of joy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. I did notice in another interview that

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Speaker 2: I heard you on it was like a passing statement

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Speaker 2: you made, and I became curious about it because we

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Speaker 2: work with leaders. You said something about work that you

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Speaker 2: were doing with wardens in particular. Yes, I'd love to

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Speaker 2: hear what you are, how you're training them, or what

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Speaker 2: that is about.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I mean leadership is really important to us

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Speaker 1: throughout everything we do at Prison Fellowship in terms of

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Speaker 1: our programs. So you're referring to our Prison Fellowship Warden

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Speaker 1: Exchange program, which started over a decade ago, and that

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Speaker 1: program actually trains wardens in transformational leadership. And so we

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Speaker 1: have an online portion for about six months. Right now,

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Speaker 1: we've got more wardens than ever that's signed up for it.

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Speaker 1: We've got about two hundred and a cohort going through

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Speaker 1: the curriculum together at a time, and they're exchanging ideas

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Speaker 1: as they're hearing about transformational leadership and thinking about it

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Speaker 1: in their own context. Transformational leadership and the content we're

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Speaker 1: creating for them is not unique to prison, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's actually part of why the program is so

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Speaker 1: exciting to them. It's getting them to kind of think

435
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: outside the box and how can I apply the these

436
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: values of transformational leadership in my context. But then the

437
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: coport they're going through with is correctional leaders from different

438
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: states who can share, you know, the same sentiment of

439
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: what it's like to lead in that space, but perhaps

440
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: are trying different things right, and so they're exchanging ideas.

441
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: We take the cream of the crop from that first

442
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: phase and invite some of them back to a second

443
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: phase where they actually build out their vision plan for

444
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: their prison. And we have an advisory panel some amazing

445
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: oftentimes retired heads of corrections who volunteer their time to

446
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: this program and they actually give feedback to those vision

447
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: plans and advice. And then we'll even stay on with

448
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: some of those wardens and help them measure their prison

449
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: culture and we have a prison Culture assessment that we

450
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: use with them and are able to make recommendations to

451
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: them of how they can continue improving their culture and

452
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: walk alongside them through that process. So that's the leadership

453
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: training we're doing because we believe that it's important to

454
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: affect prison from the top down but also the bottom up.

455
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: And so another program we have from the bottom up

456
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: is Prison Fellowship Lead. And we have, you know, several

457
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: programs in prison that are intensive to really address character formation,

458
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: the Academy and grow, but Prison Fellowship Lead is for

459
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: our graduates of those programs, and so we invite graduates

460
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: of those programs to step into Prison Fellowship Lead. They

461
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: get curriculum like the Urban Ministry Institute, which teaches people

462
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: how to be evangelists theological training, and they also do

463
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: our our Prison Fellowship curriculum that provides opportunities to build

464
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: a community that does service projects and really provides an

465
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: opportunity for people to show that they're change agents right

466
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: where they are, even if they're still in prison. And

467
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: so we've got chapters of Prison Fellowship LEAD happening all over.

468
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: And that was really born from the fact that a

469
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: lot of our graduates would finish our academy or growth program,

470
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: which is about a year long, and they'd say, what

471
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: do I do now? I want to keep going, I

472
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 1: want to be this positive change agent, and how do I,

473
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: you know, keep the community that I had through those programs?

474
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: And so that's how LEAD was born. And so many

475
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: of our graduates are going on to do amazing things

476
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: both in the community in prison and in the community

477
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: when they get out.

478
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 2: Oh I love I love hearing that it's happening from

479
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 2: all angles. And I love the term transformational leadership because

480
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: that's we all want to be on that journey of

481
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: growth and development information. And I'm also hearing that there's

482
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: relationships here where you're humanizing. Sometimes we just forget people

483
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: are people, and it sounds like you're really trying to

484
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: remember that and to train that into the wardens and

485
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: whoever you're working with, that these are these are individuals,

486
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: but they're communities that deserve to be treated well, to

487
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: be heard, to be led, to be guided, to be

488
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: allowed to grow. It just sounds so good. I'm really

489
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: impressed with you know, we're calling their programs, but I

490
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: can hear the heartbeat that you have your own passion

491
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: for what God might be up to, for listening to

492
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: what others are doing and responding from within and not

493
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: just imposing anything. But there's an aliveness here that I'm

494
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: hearing in your leadership, and I expect nothing less, but

495
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: I'm just it's just exciting to hear.

496
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: Oh well, it's exciting to see too. I mean, I'm

497
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: always inspired not only by the leaders that we have

498
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: who are incarcerated, by the leaders we have incorrections, and

499
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: they're brave people because it's a tough job. The suicide rate,

500
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: many of the health concerns super high rates among corrections leaders.

501
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: It's a tough job. And so I think it's really

502
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: meaningful that we invest in them in this way and

503
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: that they form their own community to share ideas and

504
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 1: to encourage each other that you can be courageous in

505
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: this space and you can do that wisely.

506
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so good. Well, I know that you had a

507
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: part in the First Step Aact. I'm wondering if you

508
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: could tell us a little bit about what that is.

509
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: Sure, this is a bit before I'm kind of transitioning

510
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: to leading the Ministry. It was when I was still

511
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: doing government affairs for the Ministry and I was working

512
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: with Congress, and the First Step Act is a bipartisan

513
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: bill that addresses the federal prison system and the federal

514
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: prison system. Every state has their own system, the federal

515
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: prison system is actually the largest, though, So what we're

516
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: trying to do is not only address opportunities for programming,

517
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: because compared to the states where we've had a lot

518
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: of opportunity to open the Grow program, the Academy program

519
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: that I mention, we'd really had a hard time getting

520
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: access into the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and so, you know,

521
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: we knew that there could be more opportunity for outside organizations,

522
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: faith based organizations to be partnering with them, helping people

523
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: step in to a new journey while they're in prison

524
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: before they get released. And we also recognized that there

525
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: are many people in federal prison who are serving really

526
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: disproportional sentences, and so wanted to also incorporate some sentencing reforms.

527
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: And it took many, many years to get this bill passed.

528
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: In fact, it went through multiple iterations, different titles, different administrations,

529
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: and by the time we were able to broker a

530
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 1: final deal, I remember it passed just before Christmas. The

531
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: President Trump in his first term, signed into law, and

532
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: I remember I got to watch it pass through the

533
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: Senate and at my kitchen table online, you know, in

534
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: real time, and just tears dripping down my face because

535
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: of all of the you know, prayers, blood sweat and

536
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: tears that went into to getting that done and working

537
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: with legislative offices, bringing in Christian advocates, our justice ambassad

538
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: volunteers to the hill or having them call their their members.

539
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: Years and years of that work, and then I also

540
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: got to go on the House floor and watch from

541
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: the balcony as the House passed it with remarkable bipartisan support.

542
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: And so since then, actually we're super excited because we're

543
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: seeing the doors open in federal prison to programming like

544
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: never before. We're looking forward to launching our first Academy

545
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: here soon. Just we have thirty wardens going through the

546
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: Prison Fellowship ward in exchange today. Before this we had

547
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: zero out of the eight hundred graduates we've had over

548
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: ten years. So it's just opening up all kinds of

549
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: new possibilities to partner with the Federal Beer of Prisons

550
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: and give opportunities to people to rehabilitate. But it's also

551
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: allowed for people to earn time credits for those programs

552
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: and to be able to come home sooner. And there's

553
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: some really incredible people who have been able to benefit

554
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: from the First Step Act, people like Matthew Charles, who

555
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: is a believer and you did so much in terms

556
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: of his own rehabilitation behind bars and just as a wonderful,

557
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: beautiful soul and I get to advocate with him on occasion.

558
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: And there's many more stories. But it's been a big

559
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: success in terms of people coming home and being successful

560
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: to stay home. And we're still hopeful that there's opportunity

561
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: for a second step AE, a second step back.

562
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: Yes, that would be wonderful. Well, thank you for your

563
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: work on that. It all just sounds so good. Since

564
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: we are unhurried living, I have to ask have there

565
00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: been any moments when becoming unhurried or making some space

566
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: started taking a little extra time made you a better

567
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: leader in any particular situation.

568
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I have not achieved it, but I am

569
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: working on it. But I'll take you back to twenty

570
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: twenty because I'm sure for a lot of people you

571
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: think of twenty twenty and kind of that COVID you

572
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: know phase, and sometimes moments like that can bring out

573
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: the worst in us. I have always struggled with work

574
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: life balance and being unhurried. I love a to do list,

575
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: I love multitasking, and I can remember during that season,

576
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: I was kind of ramping up to with you know,

577
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: my CEO preparing me and up until then can starting

578
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: to do more travel as well. But then suddenly we're homebound.

579
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: We also got our first placement for foster care, which

580
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: is you know, now our our daughter Maria, and so

581
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: we had this newborn infant, and I kept telling my

582
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: husband that I was going to take a Friday off,

583
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: like you're in there, and then like every Friday that

584
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: I would say that, like I would still be working,

585
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: and so just kind of reached a breaking point, you know,

586
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: where he was just like you you have a problem.

587
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: Thank Thank goodness for godly spouses who will tell you

588
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: the truth. And I was like, yeah, I think I do.

589
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: And so I remember I reached out and to my

590
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: church and was able to get some resources and saw

591
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: a counselor and just kind of talking about like, what's

592
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: behind like this this inability to kind of shut off work.

593
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: And I think, especially when you work in ministry, it's

594
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: very easy to tell yourself that I'm doing this for.

595
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: The Lord, right, It's so.

596
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: Right. Uh, And so that was really helpful for me.

597
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: And then at the very same time, I have no

598
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: doubt God spoke to her directly. A mentor of mine

599
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: called up and she actually said, you know, I'm starting

600
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: this mentoring community for women. I've been part of one,

601
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: and I want to start my own. And everyone I'm

602
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: inviting is somehow involved in prison ministry or justice. And

603
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: God keeps putting you on my mind, but I know

604
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: you're so busy, and so I feel bad even asking.

605
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: But we essentially meet for a women's retreat every year

606
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: and spend dedicated time and just sharing what's going on

607
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: in our lives, praying for each other, seeing if they're scripture.

608
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,959
Speaker 1: We feel compelled to share with the other women there,

609
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: and I just said to her, Karen saved me from myself. Yes,

610
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: the Lord asked you to call me, and I'm glad

611
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: that you bought through the idea that I would be

612
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 1: too busy, because yes I am. But that's the problem, right.

613
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: And so that year and every year since, I have

614
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: had the incredible joy of meeting with this mentoring community

615
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 1: that she helps facilitate. And every year it's the same

616
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: six women and we share an update on what's going

617
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: on for our life. We listen to the Lord and

618
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: share what we what we hear, and we then we

619
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: pray over that woman. And I mean we do that

620
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: for hours each day for each woman, and it's just

621
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing. And we just take a long weekend

622
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: to do that. My husband and I also co lead

623
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: a married couple small group. And you know there's something

624
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: about when you say you're leading that's gonna make you

625
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: show up, make you do the reading right, and make

626
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: you build community. Uh that's really healthy. So that's that's

627
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: been like another great thing. And and in the course

628
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: of trying to put some more rhythms into my life, uh,

629
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: to force rest into force, being unhurried yeah, in that season.

630
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: You know, another big thing for me was reading them

631
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,959
Speaker 1: a book by Justin Early that kind of talks about

632
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: some rhythms and making the dinner table sacred, you know,

633
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: really stood out to me from his his book, and

634
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: so that's something we do anytime I'm not traveling. Dinner

635
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: is sacred and we all sit down, no phones, and

636
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: me and my husband and our girls, we share our

637
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: gratitude of the day. Uh. And that's been really healthy.

638
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: And then also a sabbath, really setting aside sabbath and

639
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: taking that seriously and understanding that our best work is

640
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: going to flow from rest, not the vice versa right

641
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: that we need to rest from work.

642
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,479
Speaker 2: Yes, so good. It sounds like you have a really good,

643
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: healthy rhythm of life with.

644
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: Some I don't know that my my like my tendencies

645
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: don't creep in jem. I won't say that that help.

646
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: I know none of us are perfect.

647
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: I get it.

648
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: But but but the reality of you know, because you

649
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: can burn the candle at both ends for a certain

650
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: length of time and then and then there comes a

651
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: time where you can't, and at some point in there

652
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: you've got to wake up to it and and enact

653
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: something that will keep you fresh. That's right, right over

654
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: the course of your life, because you're going to be

655
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 2: passionate about this for a long time. Yes, and so,

656
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: and that's what we talk about anyway, is you know,

657
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: of course people are busy. We're not saying don't be busy.

658
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: We're saying you can be busy. And you could take

659
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: a stab at being unhurried. Right, Jesus was unhurried. He

660
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: did a lot of things, but he wasn't fretting, right,

661
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: There wasn't. There wasn't. Jesus wasn't pushing anything anywhere. And

662
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: and so I have to go, oh, maybe I could

663
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: borrow that, and just not because I have a tendency

664
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: too to want to iways want to reach into the

665
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: future and make something happen or whatever all of that.

666
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 2: But this is a grand experiment that we're doing here.

667
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: Is is it possible to be busy and unhurried? And

668
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: we're saying yes, and we're and we're practicing.

669
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: Right, that is absolutely right. And I think so much

670
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: of that comes from putting like some key rhythms in place,

671
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: right that help us reset and really take stock of

672
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: how things are going.

673
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: For sure, and how many you any children do you

674
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: have now.

675
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 1: I have two girls, nine and six.

676
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 2: And they both did They both come through the foster

677
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: system to adoption.

678
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: No, our oldest is our birth daughter. And then we always,

679
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, wanted to adopt, and so I wanted to

680
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: get through the foster care system, and so our youngest

681
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: we thought for sure we'd have multiple placements before we

682
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: perhaps found it, you know, had a child in our

683
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: home who was in need of a permanent, loving family.

684
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: Mariah showed up at eight days old and they said,

685
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: can you keep a baby for the night. Eight years later,

686
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: the next thing, they called back and said, I think

687
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: it's going to be longer than a night, And three

688
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: years later she was in foster care. Three years three

689
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: years later.

690
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: It was adopted at birth.

691
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: So I have.

692
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: From that end. And then my parents were also foster

693
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: parents while I was growing up. So we had a

694
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: series of foster children who came through our homes. So

695
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 2: I was I was in the system, you know, on

696
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: the family end, but also as a child, so I

697
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: but I remember seeing this was of course in the seventies,

698
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: but you know, even then we had a loving social worker.

699
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: Her name was married to Booverer. My guess is she's

700
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: probably passed away by now, because I was a child

701
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: and she had to be at least in her forties

702
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: at that point. Anyway, she was just this loving, beautiful

703
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: woman that would come and check in on the children.

704
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: But so much, so much suffering, so much suffering came

705
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: through home. The ways the children were abused so very young.

706
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: I had a sense of other families had other ways

707
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 2: that they were moving through the world. So yeah, my

708
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: heart always goes out to that because my parents were

709
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: They just loved taking care of kids.

710
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: Like that, so incredible. So get a pretty reasy family.

711
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was good. It was good. I had. I

712
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: grew up in an idyllic area in southern Washington State, Okay,

713
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 2: lots of land, lots of beauty, so it was it

714
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: was good. But anyway, so I'm always my ears always

715
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: perk up when I hear people talking about adoption or

716
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: foster care, because are your story, That's a part of

717
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 2: my story.

718
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

719
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: So well, I'm wondering as we moved toward wrapping it

720
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: up here, I you know, you have to talk about

721
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 2: the verse, the very famous verse I was in prison

722
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: and you came to visit me.

723
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I just.

724
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: Want to know what you think about that? For just

725
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: anyone who's listening. What does that mean? What if someone

726
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: cares a lot, they don't know how to do this

727
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: other thing they're supposed to be doing? You know what

728
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: I mean? What how could someone where would they begin

729
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: thinking about this?

730
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: Right? It's a great question because you know, I think

731
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: when you think of Matthew twenty five, and you think

732
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: of all the other verses before that, you know whether

733
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: it's I was hungry and gave me something to eat,

734
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: I was naked, you gave me something to wear. It's

735
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: like we usually have a pretty practical idea of how

736
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 1: to fulfill that. Right. You see someone hungry, you might

737
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: serve at the soup kitchen. You might give someone a meal,

738
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: you might donate your clothes. Right, But going to prison

739
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: is not so straightforward. Visit me in prison, right necessarily?

740
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: And so but what I have found is like the

741
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: more I have studied that passage and thought about it,

742
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: I felt like it was a duty. Here's a list

743
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: of things that the Lord is asking that we're supposed

744
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: to do as believers. I think that's how originally would

745
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: read it. Then at prison fellowship it became more of

746
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: a calling this is your calling. And the more though

747
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: I have spent time with the Jim, the more I

748
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: think of it as an invitation. The Lord is saying,

749
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: whenever you do these things, you're actually doing them for me.

750
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: And so it's an invitation to encounter Christ in a

751
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: fresh way, to draw near to Him. When we draw

752
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: near to the margins of society, whether that's the foreign spirit,

753
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: the hungry, the orphan, the imprisoned, we draw near to Christ.

754
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: And that goes back to what we originally started talking

755
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: about of this this concept of ministry with It's why

756
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: I think, you know, there is such blessing and learning

757
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: that happens the more time I spend in prison with

758
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: followers of Jesus in prison. It's because He told us,

759
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: come to prison and you will find me. And so

760
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 1: that's just, you know, a point of encouragement I would

761
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: make to someone who's considering that. And then in terms

762
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: of actual ways to get involved, there's so many opportunities

763
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: to come alongside those who are impacted by incarceration. Yes,

764
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: you could volunteer in prison, and we have opportunities to

765
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: do that all over the country and are constantly in

766
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: need of volunteers. But you know you might not be

767
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: close to one of the places where we have a

768
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: prison program, and so one of the things that you

769
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: can do no matter where you are across the country

770
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: is Prison Fellowship Angeletry. For me, this program is so

771
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: near and dear to my heart. And the way it

772
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: starts is actually a parent in prison signs up their

773
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: son or daughter, our grandchild to receive a gift on

774
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: their behalf at Christmas. They get to provide a note

775
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: that gets a fix to that gift so that the

776
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: child knows the gifts from them. But then you know,

777
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: we as volunteers and churches outside get to deliver those

778
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: gifts and say this is on behalf of your mom

779
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: or dad. And for me and my family, that has

780
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: been a favorite thing to do every Christmas season. And

781
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: we've actually not only gotten to deliver a Christmas gift,

782
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: but we've gotten to enter into relationship with incredible families

783
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: right here in our neighborhood in Washington, d C. And

784
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: so that is a great starting point. And we've got

785
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: Angeltry kids all over the country no matter where we are,

786
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: where you are, we need you, We need you to

787
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: step up and say my church could take on next

788
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: number of kids, and we'll work with you to do that.

789
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: You can also be a justice ambassador. So you know,

790
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: we talked through the First Step Act, had it not

791
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: been for willing believers who would come to Capitol Hill,

792
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: who would call their lawmakers. And we do a lot

793
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: of training to equip you. You don't have to be knowledgeable

794
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: about the political system or policy. We will equip you

795
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: for that. But we have so many volunteers who made

796
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: passing that legislation and other legislation at the federal and

797
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: state level possible. And the Lord says to seek justice,

798
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: and so we ought to do that. So we have

799
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: a Justice and Basador program that you can apply to.

800
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: We also are equipping churches. And how do you welcome

801
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: people home post release? So many people struggle to not

802
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: just find a job or find housing, yes that's a struggle,

803
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: but also to find belonging and so that's a big

804
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: part of what we can do as well, and all

805
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: of the things I just mentioned advocating re entry in

806
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: prison Ministry, Family Ministry. We have a conference called the

807
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: Restore Conference that we host we have coming up in

808
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: September in Washington, d C. Actually at my home church.

809
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: National Community Church Pastor Mark Patterson is going to be

810
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: speaking on September fifteen, sixteen, so you can come and

811
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: search for the Restore Conference on our website Prisonfellowship dot

812
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: org to learn more about that, and we will be

813
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: talking about all those topics and equipping you in those

814
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: in those spaces.

815
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 2: Wow, well there you go. Let's put a period on

816
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 2: that one that was there.

817
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: You were very specific.

818
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, So if you're wondering about this and

819
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 2: you want to lean in it anyway, we've just heard

820
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: an amazing list of possibilities and so Prisonfellowship dot org. Right,

821
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: that's right, wonderful. Thank you, Heather. I was so looking

822
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: forward to meeting you, and it's it's again a delight

823
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: to see such a light and bright spirit in yourself

824
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 2: in the very intense, I'm sure and difficult a lot

825
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: of times, but necessary ministry that you're leading. And so

826
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: it's just been an inspiration to have you be with

827
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 2: us today. So thank you.

828
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: It has been so good for me to sit down

829
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: and just have a chance to have an unhurried conversation

830
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: with you, Jim, So thank you.

831
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 2: Maybe hopefully this was a little respite in the middle

832
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 2: of your day.

833
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: That's right.

834
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely thank you for joining me on the unhead Living podcast.

835
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: You can download free resources and learn more about us

836
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 2: at Unhurried Living dot com, and please subscribe and share

837
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: this podcast with your friends and colleagues. We'd also like

838
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: to thank our partner, Life Audio. Check out their other

839
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: faith centered podcasts at lifeaudio dot com. Blessings to you

840
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 2: as you make your way