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Speaker 1: Coming up on Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic. The people that, like,

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Speaker 1: vocalize regrets that they have in their life, it's always

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Speaker 1: about time, wishing that they had more time. I just

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Speaker 1: wish I would have fully enjoyed the moment. I wish

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Speaker 1: I would have spent more time with my kids. I

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Speaker 1: wish I would have told my mom or dad or

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Speaker 1: grandparent or son or daughter, like, how much they meant

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: The people at their end who are actually having regrets,

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Speaker 1: it's a desire for more presence. It's a desire for

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Speaker 1: more simple things. There's one lady who was passing away

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Speaker 1: and on hospice. And she started talking about the birds

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Speaker 1: and how much she cherished. Just listen to the birds sing.

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Speaker 2: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel, and I

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Speaker 2: am the Christian who became an alcoholic, not the other

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Speaker 2: way around. Here, we get radically vulnerable about addiction, recovery,

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Speaker 2: messy sanctification, and all the things we turn to instead

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Speaker 2: of Jesus because we're all addicted to something. You'll hear raw,

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Speaker 2: honest conversations from those who have struggled, those who help

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Speaker 2: those who struggle, and why aiming for Jesus and getting

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Speaker 2: sobriety thrown in is actually the best goal. So let's

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Speaker 2: get right into this week's episode. As I'm sitting here,

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Speaker 2: it has been an interesting month and a half. I

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Speaker 2: have joined the staff of Rock Hill Baptist Church in Brownsboro, Texas,

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Speaker 2: and I'm to lead their recovery ministry while also still

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Speaker 2: moving and trying to sell our house, trying to find

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Speaker 2: one in what is an incredibly awful market. That means

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Speaker 2: that I drive a lot now. I usually drive down

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Speaker 2: on Sunday mornings and drive back home to the suburb

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Speaker 2: that we live in, Dallas.

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Speaker 1: And I have a lot of time to think. And

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Speaker 1: I will say that one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: have been thinking a lot about is my.

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Speaker 1: As a father.

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Speaker 2: And because I'm away from my kids more than I've

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Speaker 2: ever been there are times where I just I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to lie like I feel like oh my gosh

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Speaker 2: like what am I doing you know like I'm not

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Speaker 2: spending as much time with them like Lord are you

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Speaker 2: sure this is what you want me to do and

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Speaker 2: he confirms it for sure but that has led to

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Speaker 2: just a lot of thoughts about the reality of how

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Speaker 2: fleeting the time is um like my daughter's 11, my

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Speaker 2: son is eight and I, it, it, it can kind

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Speaker 2: of overwhelm me emotionally sometimes, but I think like I

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Speaker 2: have less years with my daughter before she's an adult. Um,

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Speaker 2: then how old she is, right? Like I'm, I'm across

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Speaker 2: the tipping point, I guess is what I mean, right?

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Speaker 2: Is that, um, I'm like, it's now a countdown instead

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Speaker 2: of a count up, if you will. Um, That the

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Speaker 2: rest of this time that I have with her is

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Speaker 2: less than the time I've already spent. And that thought

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Speaker 2: makes me emotional, but it brings with it actually a

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Speaker 2: lot of gratefulness. Because here's the reality. I am so

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Speaker 2: thankful that since aiming for Jesus and getting sobriety thrown in,

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Speaker 2: the time that I've spent in the last three years

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Speaker 2: with my kids has been much sweeter. I've been more present.

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Speaker 2: I have been more available. I've been and become more

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Speaker 2: of the yes dad, right? Because the reality is, is

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Speaker 2: when I was drinking as much as I was and

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Speaker 2: in the way that I was, I was checked out.

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Speaker 2: I was way more selfish. I was way more concerned

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Speaker 2: about alcohol and feeling a certain way and escaping. And

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Speaker 2: Here's the reality. Alcohol is not a precision numbing agent.

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Speaker 2: It's a numbing agent. Yes, and it works, but it's

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Speaker 2: not precise. And so when I was looking to numb

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Speaker 2: the thoughts and feelings that I didn't want to feel

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Speaker 2: or think, I was also numbing my ability to be

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Speaker 2: a good dad.

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Speaker 1: Why do I say all that?

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Speaker 2: Well, because today's podcast episode is with someone who I

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Speaker 2: think has a perspective on the time we have here

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Speaker 2: on Earth more than other people do. His name is

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Speaker 2: Devin Komp. And I got to know him through my

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Speaker 2: writing on Substack. And he has spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time as a hospice chaplain. So hospice, you know, is

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Speaker 2: end of life care. And he has encountered a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who are looking back at their life and asking,

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Speaker 2: did it matter? Did I do what mattered? Did I

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Speaker 2: spend time with the people that I loved? And so

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Speaker 2: I wanted to talk with Devin because I think that

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Speaker 2: if you're listening to this podcast, that it could be

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Speaker 2: a very helpful perspective, especially if you are still in

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Speaker 2: the throes of addiction or doing what you don't want

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Speaker 2: to do, to maybe take a pause. And perhaps the

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Speaker 2: thing that maybe puts you over the edge to finally

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Speaker 2: pursuing gospel-centered recovery is that you hear what Devon shares

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Speaker 2: about the people that he's encountered who are facing death.

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Speaker 2: This is not, in a sense, a feel-good episode, although

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Speaker 2: it's not, I don't think, overly depressing. But the point is,

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Speaker 2: there's not a story of great triumph here. But what

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Speaker 2: Devon is going to talk about is what the people

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Speaker 2: that he has worked with, what they have said, matters.

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Speaker 2: And I think you're going to find this through line

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Speaker 2: that no one regrets spending more time or being more present.

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Speaker 2: And yet what alcohol does is it steals time away

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Speaker 2: and it makes us less present. And so I wanted

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Speaker 2: Devon to just come on and share what he has seen,

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Speaker 2: what he has experienced, the stories that he's heard. You're

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Speaker 2: especially going to hear one about a guy that I

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Speaker 2: think is powerful. So I'd love for you to give

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Speaker 2: this episode some space and some time. Now, before we

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Speaker 2: get there, I would love if you would also visit

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Speaker 2: Veritas Recovery. Go to veritasrecovery.org, and there you can find

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Speaker 2: resources that will help you and guide you on a

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Speaker 2: journey to start or continue gospel-centered recovery. You can also

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Speaker 2: support the ministry. You can support this podcast. If you

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Speaker 2: have benefited from it at all, I would be honored

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Speaker 2: if you would just throw $ 3, $ 5, $ 1.

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Speaker 1: 10.

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Speaker 2: That will make sense in a little bit. In a

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Speaker 2: couple weeks, we're going to unveil what we call the

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Speaker 2: $ 1. 10 campaign. And boy, am I excited. So go to

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Speaker 2: VeritasRecovery.org and check that out. So without further ado, let's

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Speaker 2: talk with Devin Komp. Devin, thank you for joining the

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Speaker 2: Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. This has been a

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Speaker 2: long time coming. We've scheduled and rescheduled multiple times because

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Speaker 2: of just some craziness. We almost had to reschedule today.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, you got to be kidding me. Like,

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Speaker 2: it would have been my fault.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, no.

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Speaker 2: And luckily, I'd made a mistake, as I so often do.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that I thought had come up is

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Speaker 2: not till tomorrow. So praise God. Good to have you here, sir.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. Well, good to be here. Good

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Speaker 1: to connect with you. I know it's been back and forth.

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Speaker 1: I think that just comes with being an adult, too.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I've got kids, too. So if

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Speaker 1: it's not you, it's me and everything in between. So truly,

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Speaker 1: truly honored to be here and excited for the conversation.

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Speaker 1: So you and I met on Substack. You are a

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Speaker 1: great writer. You are a deep thinker.

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Speaker 2: And what I love about it is that it comes

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Speaker 2: from a place of personal experience and i think that

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Speaker 2: is you know the best writing is done out of

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Speaker 2: that right i remember being a a young uh young

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Speaker 2: person in the news business and my boss was like

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Speaker 2: hey i want you guys to have a life outside

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Speaker 2: of here which is very different than what you hear

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Speaker 2: from a lot of news directors right they're like be

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Speaker 2: in here and you know and he said listen you

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Speaker 2: are a better News finder, news teller story, like all

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Speaker 2: that stuff. If you have interests, if you are cultivating

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Speaker 2: a life that is interesting, right? Like you just experience

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Speaker 2: breeds good storytelling. And I think that is especially true

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Speaker 2: in your life. That's how I found you is you

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Speaker 2: were writing on Substack. I was like, dude, this guy's

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Speaker 2: this is great. And you were writing, I think, initially.

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Speaker 2: about your experience as a hospice chaplain, which is what

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about today. And I talked a

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Speaker 2: little bit about this in the intro, but I think

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Speaker 2: you have seen what it is like to face death.

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Speaker 2: And you've gotten an up close and personal look at that.

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Speaker 2: And I think those of us who struggle with One

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Speaker 2: of the things that we fail to see sometimes is

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Speaker 2: like we fail to recognize the gravity of what we're doing,

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Speaker 2: what we're engaging in, the decisions that we're making. And

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Speaker 2: we lose sight that, listen, it could end at any time.

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Speaker 2: And if it does, what will we be faced with?

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Speaker 2: And so, you know, just a light topic that I

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Speaker 2: want to cover today. But before we get to that,

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Speaker 2: why don't you introduce yourself? Because even though you've been

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Speaker 2: a hospice chaplain. Um, you've taken, um, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say like, it's not a, it's not like a

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Speaker 2: full career change.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is, but it isn't. And so just

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Speaker 1: explain a little bit about you, yourself, your family, where

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Speaker 1: you're from and what you do. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, truly, I think the same if you're writing too,

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Speaker 1: cause I, uh, I had the pleasure of connecting with you, um,

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Speaker 1: through Substack too. And so, um, yeah, so I live

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Speaker 1: over in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Um, it's this nice

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Speaker 1: little cubby of the Midwest where I promise it's not

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Speaker 1: all cows and prairies. And there's a lot of that here, but, uh,

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Speaker 1: there's also a lot of great healthcare opportunities. And so,

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Speaker 1: excuse me, when I was, uh, my first undergrad degree, um,

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Speaker 1: I was very, very confused. Didn't really know what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do. Um, was kind of starting to kind

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Speaker 1: of know the Lord a bit more, um, and had

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Speaker 1: a professor pull me aside and ask if I, uh,

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Speaker 1: had ever heard of uh like hospital chaplaincy before um

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Speaker 1: i was taking a few theology classes at the time

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Speaker 1: and i hadn't like i said had no clue what

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Speaker 1: i was doing um and i didn't so we went

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Speaker 1: over in the pouring rain that day and met with

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Speaker 1: uh the director of spiritual care and got plugged in

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Speaker 1: loved it um which was quite a shocker because initially

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Speaker 1: i just knew that the hospitals were for the sick

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Speaker 1: and dying and i wanted none of that and so

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Speaker 1: um kind of led me on a different pivot in

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Speaker 1: my life and uh I worked at this trauma one

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Speaker 1: hospital here in town for, oh, it had been just

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Speaker 1: under four years. And then went and worked in hospice

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Speaker 1: for about another four years. And hospice was with a

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Speaker 1: different organization, more outpatient care. So that included more like

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Speaker 1: home visits and facility visits and, you know, the broad

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Speaker 1: spectrum of everything in between. And so, and they really

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Speaker 1: did teach me different, like, different, different lessons, um, how

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Speaker 1: to approach people, how to hold space with people, what

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Speaker 1: different stages of life look like. Um, and I found

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Speaker 1: that was so interesting. And so, um, yeah, most recently I,

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Speaker 1: my wife and I had been praying and praying and

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Speaker 1: praying and I loved what I did as a chaplain. And, um,

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Speaker 1: wanted more with healthcare, from the healthcare industry. And so

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Speaker 1: I just wrapped up my nursing degree from the, it

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Speaker 1: was an accelerated nursing program here in Sioux Falls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like you like, like when they say accelerated, right?

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Speaker 2: Like people look at me, they're like, oh, you did seminary,

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Speaker 2: you know, in a year. But like you did full-on

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Speaker 2: nursing in a year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a 15-month program from start to finish.

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Speaker 1: And I tell everybody, you know, I was the brains

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Speaker 1: of the operation, but my wife was the rest of

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Speaker 1: the entire body because she managed the kids. We had

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Speaker 1: our third child two months into the program, which is chaos.

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Speaker 1: And we got through, you know, all the sleepless nights

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Speaker 1: and the crunching for exams and stuff. And so, truly,

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Speaker 1: it's a community effort. I was just really, really honored

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Speaker 1: to to participate in that journey. And so, yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I'll be working in the ER here shortly and just

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Speaker 1: can't wait to be back. Those spaces are so hungry

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Speaker 1: for hope and to be able to facilitate that to

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Speaker 1: some capacity is truly, it's a privilege. And so I

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Speaker 1: don't carry that lightly. When people say that I made

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Speaker 1: a radical career change, you know, all I really say is,

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Speaker 1: It's the same job as a chaplain, just a different

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Speaker 1: badge now. And you can, you know, give IVs as well.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, people don't always love me the same way

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Speaker 1: because I might be poking them. But, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: some perks too.

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Speaker 2: So I want to go back, you know, here's something

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Speaker 2: interesting about chaplaincy that I, I didn't realize. So maybe

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Speaker 2: other people don't realize it, but maybe I'm just an idiot,

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Speaker 2: which is highly likely. Um, is that way you weren't

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Speaker 2: supposed to agree with that.

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Speaker 1: Um, that's not true. Oh, not true. I thought you

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Speaker 1: just said true. Okay. Well, all right. Shortest interview we've

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Speaker 1: ever done on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Um, you like, when I finished seminary, you know, you

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Speaker 2: get put on these like job boards through my seminary

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Speaker 2: and whatnot. And, and so I would see after I graduated,

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Speaker 2: some of these jobs come through for chaplaincy and, and

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Speaker 2: I'd click on them. And I was always, for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: kind of surprised at like, what you have to do

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Speaker 2: to be a chaplain. Like it's not, it's not just, Hey,

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Speaker 2: you got a degree in theology. Like, why don't you come,

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Speaker 2: you know, be a chap? Like there is a, many

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Speaker 2: of them require a masters of divinity, which you have,

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Speaker 2: which you went and got. And then there's like this

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Speaker 2: certification and there's all these hours and there's like, it

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Speaker 2: is a, it is a big thing.

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Speaker 1: Right. Like it is.

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Speaker 2: Not just, you know, hey, we're just going to pluck

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Speaker 2: a local pastor that's in the area. And, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's going to kind of serve in this role. Like,

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Speaker 2: could you just kind of explain what all goes into

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Speaker 2: becoming a hospital chaplain?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, it does vary a little bit

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Speaker 1: state to state. But I know like so there's there's

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Speaker 1: also so let me back up. So from my order

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Speaker 1: of things, so I got my undergrad degree. I could take.

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Speaker 1: intern at the hospital, which is where I started kind

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Speaker 1: of working full-time. While I was doing that, in order

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Speaker 1: for me to continue, they also highly encouraged slash kind

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Speaker 1: of helped set up an MDiv program. So I started

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Speaker 1: studying for my MDiv while I was still working as

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Speaker 1: a chaplain. You know, in hospice, it's a little different.

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Speaker 1: There's a little bit more leniency as long as you

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Speaker 1: have some undergrad education and maybe some, they prefer more

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Speaker 1: formal too. But it's just so different too. There's also

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Speaker 1: a thing called CPE, clinical pastoral education. This is where

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Speaker 1: things really shift because I've heard that, I know like

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Speaker 1: historically it's, you want, I think he was four units

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Speaker 1: to be eligible to work full time in a hospital,

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Speaker 1: at least a lot of hospitals, at least that's here

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Speaker 1: it is in the state or was in the state.

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Speaker 1: Not quite sure what it is now. Hospice, it can

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Speaker 1: fluctuate a little bit more, which is where I was

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Speaker 1: able to get in. I did get one unit of

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Speaker 1: clinical pastoral education. And then there's also, you can go

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Speaker 1: on for like board certification and stuff like that. And so, yeah, truly,

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Speaker 1: like if you go down the hole, it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: deep hole. Which is nice. I mean, if you're really

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Speaker 1: dealing with some pretty heavy subjects, I can definitely see

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Speaker 1: why that's there. I think chaplaincy is... you know, equal

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Speaker 1: parts taking care of people and taking care of yourself.

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Speaker 1: And if one of those areas wanes, the other one

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Speaker 1: will too. And so at least that's what I felt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So when it comes to chaplaincy, I think what's

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Speaker 2: interesting is, you know, you're employed by a hospital and

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Speaker 2: it is, in a sense, you're like an all faiths person, right?

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Speaker 2: How does that work? How does that work, especially being

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Speaker 2: someone who, you know, is a Christian, has an MDiv?

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Speaker 2: How do you minister to someone who is a Muslim?

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Speaker 2: Or how do you do your job in that kind

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Speaker 2: of like knowing, hey, I am a Christian, but I

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Speaker 2: have to do like, how does that work?

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Speaker 1: That's the million-dollar question. I mean, and it's something that

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Speaker 1: I did and still do wrestle with. We'll be right

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Speaker 1: back after this. I will say, at the most basic level,

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Speaker 1: my prayer really became like, God, how can I embody

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Speaker 1: the hope that I have in you, the joy that

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Speaker 1: I have in you, and make that light evident for

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Speaker 1: others to see? I would say what I caution against,

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Speaker 1: and I caution a lot of people against, is just

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Speaker 1: this approach that we need to go in there and

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Speaker 1: be super duper. Because when people are vulnerable and they're

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Speaker 1: dying and they're going through all these radical things, to

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Speaker 1: come in there and be very aggressive, I didn't find

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Speaker 1: that the answer. But what ultimately I think in my experience,

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Speaker 1: led to more, I guess, profound spiritual encounters was really

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Speaker 1: just establishing a relationship, establishing a sense of trust between

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Speaker 1: me and the patient, where we could have very candid conversations.

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Speaker 1: And then subjects like, you know, talking about, well, tell

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Speaker 1: me about your faith. And so they, you know, whatever

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Speaker 1: their faith is, because everybody ultimately trusts in something, they

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Speaker 1: felt comfortable to share. And then I would be like, well,

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Speaker 1: do you mind if I tell you about mine? And

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Speaker 1: I had never had someone tell me no. When that relationship,

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Speaker 1: I should say, I should clarify when that relationship was

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Speaker 1: established between us. And so I found that to be really,

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Speaker 1: really helpful. And also people just don't say no to

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Speaker 1: asking for prayer. Like, if I— that' s just one way that

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Speaker 1: I would try to initiate that, too, is, hey, like,

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Speaker 1: you are going through so much, and I recognize that. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to say I understand what

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Speaker 1: you're going through, because in most ways, in many ways,

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Speaker 1: almost all the time, I didn't. You know, I had never—

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Speaker 1: I've never lost a parent, I've never lost a child,

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Speaker 1: I've never got a terminal cancer diagnosis. Praise God, but,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so what I would always do is,

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Speaker 1: do you mind if I just say a word of prayer?

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Speaker 1: Are you comfortable with that or a blessing? And I

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Speaker 1: would always try to lead with that because I just,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're gonna know us by our love. And

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Speaker 1: that's how, in my eyes, how you connect with people

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Speaker 1: who are suffering.

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Speaker 2: So when we were texting about this conversation, I said

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Speaker 2: this a little earlier, but in the end, I said, hey,

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Speaker 2: overall big picture, what I want to talk about is,

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Speaker 2: you know, what are some of the life lessons that

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Speaker 2: you've learned from people facing death? And also that you've

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Speaker 2: learned from encountering death? Because I think when it comes

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Speaker 2: to addiction and you know, I've said this on the

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Speaker 2: podcast before, but one of the more sobering, pun intended,

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Speaker 2: moments for me was after getting sober, right? After like

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Speaker 2: hitting rock bottom and starting to really work on inviting

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Speaker 2: Jesus into kind of all those parts of myself is

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Speaker 2: I just had this realization that That, you know, if

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Speaker 2: I really started drinking at 21, I had wasted the

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Speaker 2: first 15 years of my adult life. And and by

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Speaker 2: the way, like I say that and that doesn't discount,

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Speaker 2: you know, some of the great stuff that I was

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Speaker 2: able to do doesn't discount like my marriage doesn't discount.

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Speaker 1: Having kids, you know, like. Sure. But man, what if

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Speaker 1: I was really had.

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Speaker 2: Really invited Jesus, you know, into all those parts of

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Speaker 2: my life during that time? So I say, listen, it

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Speaker 2: felt like I'd wasted the first 15 years of my

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Speaker 2: adult life. And yet what God had told me is

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Speaker 2: he was going to redeem the next 15. And, but

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Speaker 2: sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, like I was absent

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Speaker 2: during this. I was absent during this. I wasn't, you know,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't using my whole brain here. And, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm curious that as you have encountered people who sit

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Speaker 2: at the end of their life some of them who

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Speaker 2: probably lived a very long fulfilled life and some of

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Speaker 2: them who never saw this coming what are some of

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Speaker 2: the things that you have learned that I think especially

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Speaker 2: is good for us as people who are either inactive

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Speaker 2: recovery who are considering recovery who are maybe sitting here

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Speaker 2: knowing I think I've been wasting my life what are

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Speaker 2: some of the things that you have learned in your

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Speaker 2: role as a chaplain that you think are helpful for

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Speaker 2: us to know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really, really good question. Very, very pointed,

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Speaker 1: you know, very just specific. And I just, I mean,

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Speaker 1: for me, you know, and maybe this didn't hit me

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Speaker 1: until I really had kids, but I feel like, like,

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Speaker 1: it's so cliche to say that time is priceless, right? Like,

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Speaker 1: everybody says that. Everybody says there's no time like the present. But, like, really,

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Speaker 1: I feel like, truthfully, there's an element of just choosing

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Speaker 1: to be fully there in the moment with wherever you

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Speaker 1: are and to accept that. You know, for instance, we

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Speaker 1: live in a very social media, digital heavy, constant hustle culture, productivity,

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Speaker 1: like this is just go, go, go. If you're not

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Speaker 1: working 90 hours a week, you know, you're not doing

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Speaker 1: it right. If you're not, you know, the next greatest

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Speaker 1: thing on social media, you're not doing it right, you're

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Speaker 1: wasting your whatever. And what I learned about, I guess,

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Speaker 1: time after sitting with people is just like the importance

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Speaker 1: of like, really just staying present and listening to the birds,

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Speaker 1: enjoying a warm cup of coffee because you can still

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Speaker 1: taste it, you can still feel it. The people in

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Speaker 1: your life right now aren't going to be there forever.

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Speaker 1: And that's crazy. And so enjoying that company. And ultimately,

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Speaker 1: more than anything else, is truly like if Jesus really

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Speaker 1: is your hope, if Jesus really is the root of,

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Speaker 1: what you base your life on, then actually like follow

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Speaker 1: through with that. Like, don't make it, don't put it

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Speaker 1: up here, put it in your heart because it's like,

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Speaker 1: if we truly have that hope, honestly, nothing outside of

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Speaker 1: what's going on in our immediate life right now in

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Speaker 1: our circle and holding onto that hope that Jesus loves

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Speaker 1: us despite our brokenness and sin, like nothing else matters.

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Speaker 2: Hmm.

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Speaker 1: Social media followers don't matter. My writing really doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing anything that God couldn't do. He can

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Speaker 1: make the rocks scream out. All that matters is to

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Speaker 1: love God and really to hold on to the hope

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Speaker 1: we have. Never was it more profound to me of

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Speaker 1: that truth. And when I sat with people who were

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Speaker 1: dying at a young age from some leukemia or some

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Speaker 1: traumatic motor vehicle accident that resulted in internal GI bleeding

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of things like that, and yet there

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Speaker 1: were quite a few of them who profoundly had hope.

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Speaker 1: They died well. And it feels weird and paradoxical to

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Speaker 1: say that, but they had something that I feel like

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of us out here who are... you know,

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Speaker 1: way more blessed than they would, than they are. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you look at it that way, um, who are

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Speaker 1: just missing it, you know, you said something, um, about

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Speaker 1: being present. And I think what is so interesting to

428
00:26:56,109 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: me is that on one hand, I drank to be present, right?

429
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: Like I drank because I couldn't shut my mind off.

430
00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:11,929
Speaker 1: I drank because The racing thoughts, the anxiety, the wanting

431
00:27:11,950 --> 00:27:12,550
Speaker 1: to escape.

432
00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:15,570
Speaker 2: Right. And so I thought, well, that will help me

433
00:27:15,609 --> 00:27:20,090
Speaker 2: be present. And I think the statistic or the science

434
00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:21,550
Speaker 2: is like for 18 minutes.

435
00:27:21,790 --> 00:27:24,170
Speaker 1: That's true. Sure.

436
00:27:24,550 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: And then it starts stealing your presence. So the very

437
00:27:28,930 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: thing that the drugs, the alcohol, the whatever promises you,

438
00:27:34,540 --> 00:27:38,939
Speaker 2: it then turns around and immediately. in the case of alcohol,

439
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:44,379
Speaker 2: within 20 minutes, starts stealing that thing, right? And yet

440
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: I was only ever focused on that first little bit. Well, look,

441
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,460
Speaker 2: it makes me more present. And yet what I found

442
00:27:53,220 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: as I got sober was, wow, how absent I had become,

443
00:27:58,340 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: how withdrawn I had become, you know? There's another phrase

444
00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:09,270
Speaker 2: you use there. I say that this podcast is chasing rabbits,

445
00:28:09,550 --> 00:28:12,729
Speaker 2: and so I want to chase this rabbit. You said

446
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: that you've sat with people, young people, especially maybe of

447
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: dying of a disease or a tragic accident, who have

448
00:28:20,660 --> 00:28:26,610
Speaker 2: died well. And I am curious, what does it mean

449
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:28,750
Speaker 2: and what does it look like to die well?

450
00:28:32,550 --> 00:28:36,129
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's hard to put that into words, you know, because,

451
00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:41,310
Speaker 1: I mean, these people that I sat with, I mean,

452
00:28:41,890 --> 00:28:44,150
Speaker 1: it wasn't every situation, right? Like, some of them were

453
00:28:44,170 --> 00:28:47,010
Speaker 1: incredibly sad, some of them, I mean, really, when people

454
00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:52,780
Speaker 1: respond in shock or anger, like, grief is so multifaceted

455
00:28:52,820 --> 00:28:58,420
Speaker 1: that there's never one way that's better or worse than

456
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,540
Speaker 1: the other. But there is an element of, like, I

457
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,380
Speaker 1: feel like you can just kind of sense it in

458
00:29:05,460 --> 00:29:11,140
Speaker 1: a room. There's a sense of, I would even say joy,

459
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:16,580
Speaker 1: despite tears. There's a sense of longing for something more.

460
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:27,790
Speaker 1: There's a sense of security that despite this, that God

461
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:30,730
Speaker 1: has been good to them. I'm writing about a guy

462
00:29:30,790 --> 00:29:39,260
Speaker 1: right now. that changed my life. Long story short, it

463
00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:43,900
Speaker 1: was a guy who initially said no to a chaplain.

464
00:29:44,540 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: He was a hospice guy, young guy. I mean, he

465
00:29:47,180 --> 00:29:49,570
Speaker 1: was in his 60s, which for the realm of hospice

466
00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:53,510
Speaker 1: is incredibly young. Usually in hospice, we don't see anything

467
00:29:54,230 --> 00:29:57,370
Speaker 1: south of about 80, 85-ish, and even then, I mean...

468
00:29:57,890 --> 00:30:02,060
Speaker 1: You know, people can be in excellent condition. Anyways, said

469
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:04,740
Speaker 1: no to a chaplain, whatever. But the nurse was sharing

470
00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: about this guy at every meeting that we'd have, how

471
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: he'd be, you know, sitting out in his patio, drinking coffee,

472
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: listening to the birds. Every single visit, he would always

473
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: be found there. Well, one day, I mean, he had

474
00:30:17,380 --> 00:30:21,380
Speaker 1: this condition where basically a tumor would, it was like,

475
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: I'm not even going to try. I think it's like

476
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: a non-Hodgkin's lymphoma or something, basically like his lymph node.

477
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: would just continue to expand and swell and swell and swell. Um, and, uh,

478
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,660
Speaker 1: as it continued to get big, he, like when it

479
00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: got bigger and bigger, he started having more serious conversations

480
00:30:40,570 --> 00:30:45,170
Speaker 1: regarding the end. And, uh, the nurse basically had advocated

481
00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:47,610
Speaker 1: for me saying like, Hey, he's not going to come

482
00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:49,910
Speaker 1: and throw in Bibles at you, but this guy might

483
00:30:49,950 --> 00:30:52,350
Speaker 1: be just like someone to, to listen to you anyways.

484
00:30:52,870 --> 00:30:55,030
Speaker 1: So I visited, I was able to, to visit, um,

485
00:30:57,220 --> 00:31:02,230
Speaker 1: This guy just, man, he just radiated just joy. And

486
00:31:02,290 --> 00:31:05,390
Speaker 1: he lived his life the same every single visit for weeks.

487
00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:08,750
Speaker 1: I mean, I could see it just getting bigger to

488
00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:11,550
Speaker 1: the point where towards the end, he couldn't even talk

489
00:31:11,610 --> 00:31:14,910
Speaker 1: right anymore because it had gotten so swollen that like

490
00:31:14,970 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: his voice was cut and he just had all sorts

491
00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:23,090
Speaker 1: of pain. And yet he always would spend time talking

492
00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:26,100
Speaker 1: with his wife, sitting with his wife, sitting on the

493
00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:31,060
Speaker 1: deck with his dog. He listened to the birds. He

494
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: welcomed prayer. We had this moment. It was my second

495
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: to last visit with him that I just asked him,

496
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:45,650
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm just going to call him Clint. Clint,

497
00:31:45,670 --> 00:31:48,740
Speaker 1: do you know the Lord? Like, do you know the Lord? Like,

498
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: he loves you. He's crazy about you. And he just

499
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,540
Speaker 1: broke down crying. Because behind him, he had like, I mean,

500
00:31:56,580 --> 00:32:00,530
Speaker 1: imagine behind me just tons of picture frames, all filled

501
00:32:00,550 --> 00:32:05,990
Speaker 1: with like pictures of family. And he said he had

502
00:32:06,010 --> 00:32:11,250
Speaker 1: been like exploring faith for a long time, but he

503
00:32:11,910 --> 00:32:13,969
Speaker 1: had only recently started to feel the love that was

504
00:32:14,010 --> 00:32:16,970
Speaker 1: with him. And so I prayed for him. We prayed together.

505
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: And we talked about family and I just talked to

506
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 1: her like, you know, like God is welcoming you to

507
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,490
Speaker 1: his family. And what an honor that is that even

508
00:32:26,550 --> 00:32:31,190
Speaker 1: now as we're facing the end, like God, God seeks

509
00:32:31,230 --> 00:32:34,070
Speaker 1: a relationship with you. He's made a way, you know,

510
00:32:34,110 --> 00:32:38,500
Speaker 1: you're never too far from him. And ultimately, he ended

511
00:32:38,540 --> 00:32:41,620
Speaker 1: up dying, and I officiated his funeral. He gave me,

512
00:32:42,090 --> 00:32:43,550
Speaker 1: last thing he ever gave me on my last visit

513
00:32:43,570 --> 00:32:47,070
Speaker 1: was a wooden picture frame that he made. And it

514
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:48,790
Speaker 1: was a picture of a farm. And on the back,

515
00:32:48,810 --> 00:32:50,870
Speaker 1: he signed it and just said, like, you know, like,

516
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:53,550
Speaker 1: may this be a reminder on your worst days that, like,

517
00:32:53,790 --> 00:32:55,630
Speaker 1: there's beauty in the world and that there's hope that

518
00:32:55,670 --> 00:32:58,820
Speaker 1: exists and that God loves you. And I have that

519
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: hanging in my house. And just, you know, what does

520
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,690
Speaker 1: it mean to die well? I don't know how to

521
00:33:05,710 --> 00:33:08,370
Speaker 1: put that in words outside of, you know, there's just

522
00:33:08,410 --> 00:33:12,950
Speaker 1: something more behind the situation. And, uh, and I hope

523
00:33:12,970 --> 00:33:17,780
Speaker 1: to have that courage myself someday. I want to ask

524
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: you a series of kind of, um, superlative questions. Sure.

525
00:33:23,020 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: Cause I think they are, they're good. Like they, they,

526
00:33:26,550 --> 00:33:29,830
Speaker 2: they kind of allow, um, us to explore some of this.

527
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:35,870
Speaker 2: And so coming off the story of Clint, um, what is,

528
00:33:36,770 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: what is the hardest thing you've heard someone say as

529
00:33:41,380 --> 00:33:42,380
Speaker 2: they're getting ready to die?

530
00:33:42,890 --> 00:33:47,220
Speaker 1: Hmm. I think always the hardest thing is just the

531
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,340
Speaker 1: people who don't, who don't know the Lord, um, who

532
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,940
Speaker 1: don't understand his, I can't fathom his love. Um, the

533
00:33:55,980 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: people who die or dying alone and they're afraid and

534
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,540
Speaker 1: they're in very, very severe pain. Um, There's just a

535
00:34:05,660 --> 00:34:11,910
Speaker 1: special sense of, I would say urgency, but also just compassion.

536
00:34:11,950 --> 00:34:14,970
Speaker 1: For me, it really revealed to me just how God

537
00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:20,290
Speaker 1: yearns for us because my desire is microscopic compared to

538
00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:24,029
Speaker 1: God's ultimate desire for everyone to come to know him

539
00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:26,730
Speaker 1: and to rest in his presence and to understand the

540
00:34:26,770 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: hope that exists in his name. And so I would

541
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,580
Speaker 1: say that's probably the hardest situations for me. And truthfully,

542
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,410
Speaker 1: I would say... I didn't say this right away because

543
00:34:36,430 --> 00:34:40,950
Speaker 1: I just was getting around to it. But I also

544
00:34:40,969 --> 00:34:48,810
Speaker 1: think when people pass who are young, like younger than

545
00:34:48,830 --> 00:34:56,990
Speaker 1: probably 30, I wouldn't say younger than 60, really. Especially kids, though.

546
00:34:58,489 --> 00:35:01,980
Speaker 1: That is always so tough for me. I don't understand.

547
00:35:02,020 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: And those are the areas where I've... I've wrestled with

548
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: the patients and the families and, um, you know, trying

549
00:35:08,980 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: to wrestle with that.

550
00:35:10,420 --> 00:35:12,460
Speaker 2: What do you say to a family who has lost

551
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: someone who's lost a 12 year old daughter, son? Um,

552
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,100
Speaker 2: because I think some people are like, well, you're the chaplain.

553
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,220
Speaker 2: You have to have all the answers.

554
00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:26,170
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, so far from the truth. So how do you,

555
00:35:26,250 --> 00:35:26,810
Speaker 1: what do you, how.

556
00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:31,830
Speaker 2: Do you comfort a family grieving the loss of a child? And,

557
00:35:31,989 --> 00:35:35,070
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying like, how should you, but I

558
00:35:35,110 --> 00:35:36,170
Speaker 2: want to know how you have.

559
00:35:36,370 --> 00:35:38,930
Speaker 1: How I do it. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I do

560
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:42,450
Speaker 1: what I only can do and that's grieve with them. Hmm.

561
00:35:43,590 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: You know, there's no words, you know, there was a

562
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:52,500
Speaker 1: kid that I, um, we did a flag raising ceremony.

563
00:35:52,739 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: He went unresponsive one day at, uh, I think it

564
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,989
Speaker 1: was like a daycare or something. How this is years

565
00:35:59,030 --> 00:36:04,270
Speaker 1: and years and years ago. Um, and, uh, I was

566
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:07,529
Speaker 1: a chaplain with him for, oh, about a month as

567
00:36:07,570 --> 00:36:10,250
Speaker 1: he fought for his life. And ultimately he passed. I mean,

568
00:36:10,270 --> 00:36:16,049
Speaker 1: he was just a young, young boy. And, you know,

569
00:36:16,090 --> 00:36:19,149
Speaker 1: people expect, like you said, for chaplains, for anybody really

570
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:21,989
Speaker 1: to have the answer. If you're a pastor or you

571
00:36:22,030 --> 00:36:26,219
Speaker 1: work in ministry, you got to have the answers. And

572
00:36:26,420 --> 00:36:29,500
Speaker 1: who can even fathom that? Because almost always in those situations,

573
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: words are the wrong thing, you know? The only answer

574
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:41,210
Speaker 1: is to be able to step into that space and

575
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:48,610
Speaker 1: to offer fully of your heart and to grieve. Now,

576
00:36:48,690 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 1: do I think that God is in the midst of those?

577
00:36:51,460 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: A hundred percent. He's doing crazy things. I know he is. Um,

578
00:36:58,180 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: But I have to trust and have faith in the

579
00:37:00,020 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: supernatural power of Jesus to mend and to heal and

580
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: to walk with those people in those seasons. Because that's

581
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,620
Speaker 1: all I can do as a chaplain, you know. Sorry,

582
00:37:11,660 --> 00:37:13,730
Speaker 1: go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just going to say,

583
00:37:13,870 --> 00:37:16,610
Speaker 1: and sometimes what's right for one family isn't right for

584
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:22,750
Speaker 1: the next. You know, sometimes my presence is welcomed. And,

585
00:37:23,090 --> 00:37:26,270
Speaker 1: you know, and it means sitting in the corner and just...

586
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:29,770
Speaker 1: sitting with mom or dad and just literally just holding

587
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:34,460
Speaker 1: them through and just grieving with them. Other times it's leaving,

588
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: not being there, popping in, checking, just making sure that

589
00:37:38,219 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: they're okay. Maybe grabbing them water or whatever and leaving.

590
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,460
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's literally pulling them out of that situation, bring

591
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,690
Speaker 1: them to a consult room so they can screen. And

592
00:37:51,730 --> 00:37:55,110
Speaker 1: that's just That's just the answer. Like, I can't imagine

593
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,529
Speaker 1: what they must be going through. I couldn't fathom that. So,

594
00:37:59,989 --> 00:38:01,509
Speaker 1: you know, there's also a part of that, too.

595
00:38:02,570 --> 00:38:06,230
Speaker 2: How do you assure people that God is still good

596
00:38:08,210 --> 00:38:10,410
Speaker 2: despite seeing something like that?

597
00:38:13,370 --> 00:38:16,970
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of that ties to Scripture.

598
00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: what I try to do. Now, I will say, in

599
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,739
Speaker 1: those moments, in those very high, acute moments of like,

600
00:38:24,460 --> 00:38:30,390
Speaker 1: child just passed away, the room is raw. I don't think...

601
00:38:30,969 --> 00:38:33,350
Speaker 1: There's very few times where I'm going to jump in

602
00:38:33,370 --> 00:38:35,870
Speaker 1: and be like, okay, God is good. Let's open John 3.16.

603
00:38:35,850 --> 00:38:37,969
Speaker 1: But there's so many reminders. And I think there's ways

604
00:38:37,989 --> 00:38:47,980
Speaker 1: that we would... like there's, there's, there's ways that we can, um,

605
00:38:48,180 --> 00:38:50,460
Speaker 1: offer a little bit of that. And, you know, one

606
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 1: of the ways I think that he has made it

607
00:38:52,380 --> 00:38:56,390
Speaker 1: so clear is that, you know, God became a flesh

608
00:38:56,430 --> 00:39:00,690
Speaker 1: and blood person through Jesus and Jesus dwelt with us.

609
00:39:01,410 --> 00:39:04,670
Speaker 1: He wept with us. He suffered with us. He revealed

610
00:39:04,690 --> 00:39:08,069
Speaker 1: the very heart and nature of Jesus, uh, of God himself, um,

611
00:39:08,090 --> 00:39:12,819
Speaker 1: and his compassion. And he, you know, did amazing things. Um,

612
00:39:13,969 --> 00:39:16,390
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the time, you know, when

613
00:39:16,430 --> 00:39:20,460
Speaker 1: I can't immediately open a Bible, it's just trying to

614
00:39:20,540 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: honor that and to hold on to that hope and

615
00:39:22,620 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: to shine that light in a way that that reveals

616
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,739
Speaker 1: the heart of God. Um, but there's also other ways too.

617
00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:30,460
Speaker 1: We would, at the hospital that I worked at, we

618
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,620
Speaker 1: had little like clay, um, they were like prayer pebbles

619
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: and they would always have a word inside of them.

620
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:42,509
Speaker 1: So like hope, truth, love, courage, wisdom, you know, patience, whatever. And, uh,

621
00:39:42,590 --> 00:39:45,850
Speaker 1: they were pressed, um, to like fit in your fingers, um,

622
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,940
Speaker 1: And as simple as that sounds, that was really effective

623
00:39:49,980 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 1: sometimes because when someone's grieving and they lose someone, that's

624
00:39:57,940 --> 00:40:01,450
Speaker 1: just profound. I just felt like being able to find

625
00:40:01,510 --> 00:40:06,049
Speaker 1: a word that really tied into their grief and leave

626
00:40:06,090 --> 00:40:09,549
Speaker 1: that with them, I felt like was effective. But then,

627
00:40:09,570 --> 00:40:13,190
Speaker 1: of course, if they're open to... to scripture and all

628
00:40:13,210 --> 00:40:14,989
Speaker 1: that too. Or like if there's moments where you can

629
00:40:15,010 --> 00:40:18,350
Speaker 1: plug in, you know, the Bible is very clear that

630
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:21,790
Speaker 1: this world is full of pain and it's full of suffering.

631
00:40:22,070 --> 00:40:23,970
Speaker 1: And so there's a part that we shouldn't be surprised

632
00:40:24,030 --> 00:40:25,970
Speaker 1: when it hits. And of course it hits people differently.

633
00:40:26,010 --> 00:40:30,310
Speaker 1: And so there's a level and multiple layers of compassion. Um,

634
00:40:31,350 --> 00:40:33,190
Speaker 1: but I just have to believe that God is closer

635
00:40:33,210 --> 00:40:37,260
Speaker 1: than we think. And that, you know, when we read

636
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,450
Speaker 1: the You know, scriptures like Psalm 23, even though, you know,

637
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:43,609
Speaker 1: we walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

638
00:40:43,650 --> 00:40:46,370
Speaker 1: we fear no evil. Why? Because you are with us.

639
00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:50,230
Speaker 1: That we can hold on to that hope. Maybe we're

640
00:40:50,270 --> 00:40:55,490
Speaker 1: just not ready to hear it yet. And so, yeah.

641
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:59,410
Speaker 2: So I want to get back to another one of

642
00:40:59,469 --> 00:41:06,410
Speaker 2: those superlative questions. And it is, what is perhaps the

643
00:41:06,450 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: most profound thing that you have heard as you've been

644
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,390
Speaker 2: counseling people at the end of life, or even just

645
00:41:14,450 --> 00:41:15,870
Speaker 2: in the hospital setting in general.

646
00:41:16,250 --> 00:41:21,609
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. I would say that,

647
00:41:22,110 --> 00:41:32,549
Speaker 1: you know, for me, it really affirmed like the existence of, of, like,

648
00:41:32,570 --> 00:41:35,509
Speaker 1: an afterlife, that God is really, like, the veil is

649
00:41:35,630 --> 00:41:38,590
Speaker 1: really thin. And I know it's really easy to believe

650
00:41:38,650 --> 00:41:44,109
Speaker 1: that or to say that we believe that. And not

651
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,460
Speaker 1: every end-of-life encounter is like that. But there's quite a

652
00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:51,940
Speaker 1: few that I've been able to be present for where,

653
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,940
Speaker 1: you know, people start kind of seeing things or they're

654
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:03,009
Speaker 1: hearing things. Yeah. And every time, every time, like even now,

655
00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:05,129
Speaker 1: you just kind of get goosebumps thinking about it because

656
00:42:05,150 --> 00:42:08,770
Speaker 1: there's been, you know, situations where I think of this

657
00:42:08,890 --> 00:42:11,570
Speaker 1: one lady. It was actually pretty, pretty early on in

658
00:42:11,590 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: my chaplaincy journey. But there was this lady and she

659
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,460
Speaker 1: was just steadily declining. Her blood pressures were getting narrower

660
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 1: and narrower. And like they knew the end was coming.

661
00:42:21,260 --> 00:42:25,700
Speaker 1: Her family was called to do an extubation. She was intubated, sedated,

662
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: all the things. So she wasn't even like with it.

663
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,299
Speaker 1: And as they went through the extubation process, which is

664
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: basically just taking everything out and letting them die a

665
00:42:38,780 --> 00:42:43,469
Speaker 1: very natural, peaceful death, she had a moment of clarity.

666
00:42:44,590 --> 00:42:48,110
Speaker 1: And it was kind of odd because that's so, so rare,

667
00:42:48,530 --> 00:42:53,270
Speaker 1: like at least to my understanding, where she sat partially up,

668
00:42:53,890 --> 00:43:00,219
Speaker 1: like partially forward, and like her eyes just got huge. And...

669
00:43:00,910 --> 00:43:04,720
Speaker 1: she just like laid down with like, I couldn't help

670
00:43:04,739 --> 00:43:06,420
Speaker 1: but feel like there was just a little bit of

671
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,100
Speaker 1: a smile on her face. Like she had a smirk

672
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,020
Speaker 1: on her face and a tear running down her eye.

673
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 1: And it was just like, I went home like, what

674
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: have we just encountered? Like, what did we just witness? Like, God,

675
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,690
Speaker 1: Jesus was definitely in the room. Like, there's no other

676
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:26,350
Speaker 1: way to say it. And the amount of times that

677
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:28,810
Speaker 1: that's happened again and again, you know, some people are

678
00:43:28,850 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: very like, vocal about that. They'll be like, like mom,

679
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:38,649
Speaker 1: like dad or whoever. And it's like, you know, well,

680
00:43:38,690 --> 00:43:44,390
Speaker 1: your dad's been gone for 20 years. Um, you know,

681
00:43:44,410 --> 00:43:46,830
Speaker 1: or they'll like look into the corner. I don't know

682
00:43:46,850 --> 00:43:49,690
Speaker 1: if you've heard of this stuff, but it's, it is crazy. Um,

683
00:43:49,989 --> 00:43:51,820
Speaker 1: because I'm like, look into the, to a corner of

684
00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:54,819
Speaker 1: the room and they'll just like see through, they'll see

685
00:43:54,860 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: through everything. And you just wonder, you know, like, are

686
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,770
Speaker 1: you seeing, like, are you seeing something in me being,

687
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:04,650
Speaker 1: you know, a man of faith and knowing that the

688
00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:09,010
Speaker 1: veil is very thin and believing that true, that like

689
00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:12,580
Speaker 1: if Jesus is crazy about, like in scripture, Jesus is

690
00:44:12,660 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: crazy about us. God's heart is ultimately loving and merciful

691
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,060
Speaker 1: and gracious. And so for me, I'm like, I just

692
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: have to rest that when we're going through the most

693
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:28,100
Speaker 1: pivotal transition of our life, which is end of life,

694
00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: that he's going to somehow meet us on that. And

695
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:36,980
Speaker 1: so I just have to believe that, you know, something's

696
00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: happening that I can't even fathom to imagine. And so

697
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,820
Speaker 1: I would say that's probably like the most interesting, if

698
00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:46,950
Speaker 1: you will. I promise I'm being like super honest. I'm

699
00:44:46,989 --> 00:44:50,770
Speaker 1: a very skeptical person by nature. And so things like

700
00:44:50,810 --> 00:44:54,810
Speaker 1: that kind of freak me out. But when you've witnessed one,

701
00:44:55,570 --> 00:44:57,850
Speaker 1: I just felt like there was like a deep peace there.

702
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: That like, okay, like even then I'm not going to

703
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,940
Speaker 1: walk through that part of my life alone. Like God

704
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: is going to be there. And then I just have

705
00:45:09,460 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: to have faith in that.

706
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: Do you, have you experienced a lot of people talking

707
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,460
Speaker 2: about regrets? I'm not, I'm not necessarily just, yeah, not

708
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,620
Speaker 2: just saying, you know, on their quote unquote deathbed, but

709
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,969
Speaker 2: even just leading up to it. Do people kind of

710
00:45:27,090 --> 00:45:29,700
Speaker 2: start talking about their regrets? What have you seen in

711
00:45:29,739 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: that area and aspect?

712
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,580
Speaker 1: I will say people that I've encountered who I guess

713
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,339
Speaker 1: have regrets, it's never the things that I would imagine

714
00:45:41,390 --> 00:45:49,969
Speaker 1: they would say. Honestly, the people that vocalize regrets that

715
00:45:49,989 --> 00:45:53,980
Speaker 1: they have in their life, it's always about... like time,

716
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,219
Speaker 1: wishing that they had more time, even if it's like

717
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:01,780
Speaker 1: the most present family man guy who's, you know, dying

718
00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: at the age of 85 or something. Like it's almost

719
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: just like, man, I would just wish I would have

720
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 1: fully enjoyed the moment. I wish I would have like

721
00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:15,219
Speaker 1: spent more time with my kids. I wish I would

722
00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:18,489
Speaker 1: have told my mom or dad or grandparent or son

723
00:46:18,530 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: or daughter like how much they meant to me. before they,

724
00:46:23,260 --> 00:46:25,489
Speaker 1: you know, as I was on my way out or

725
00:46:25,530 --> 00:46:29,370
Speaker 1: before they left or whatever. And, um, it's never about money.

726
00:46:30,030 --> 00:46:34,030
Speaker 1: It's never about jobs. It's never about hobbies. It's never about,

727
00:46:34,130 --> 00:46:37,259
Speaker 1: I've never heard someone like say, like, I wish I

728
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: didn't collect as many die cast cars. And I wish

729
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,339
Speaker 1: I would have, you know, really just went for that

730
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,140
Speaker 1: next million. I wish I would have You know, instead

731
00:46:48,180 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: of working 50 hours a week, I would have worked

732
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,660
Speaker 1: 150 hours a week to see where that, you know,

733
00:46:52,950 --> 00:46:55,930
Speaker 1: none of that. And in this culture, I feel like

734
00:46:55,969 --> 00:46:59,770
Speaker 1: that's kind of foreign to think. But I feel like

735
00:47:00,430 --> 00:47:03,390
Speaker 1: the people at their end who are actually having regrets,

736
00:47:03,950 --> 00:47:08,310
Speaker 1: it's a desire for more presence. It's just a desire

737
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:15,029
Speaker 1: for more simple things. Like, I wish I could just, like,

738
00:47:15,070 --> 00:47:19,170
Speaker 1: there's one lady who, who was passing away, and she

739
00:47:19,230 --> 00:47:26,069
Speaker 1: vocalized how much she missed hearing the birds. She was

740
00:47:26,140 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: not actively dying, but she was chronically getting closer on hospice.

741
00:47:33,460 --> 00:47:35,339
Speaker 1: And she started talking about the birds and how much

742
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:39,110
Speaker 1: she cherished just listening to the birds sing. And so

743
00:47:39,140 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: we were able to advocate the facility to be like,

744
00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: can we just open her window, install a little screen,

745
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,220
Speaker 1: and just put a bird feeder right there outside the window.

746
00:47:49,860 --> 00:47:54,060
Speaker 1: And they did it. And she just wanted to listen

747
00:47:54,100 --> 00:47:56,299
Speaker 1: to the birds sing. So she'd be found there just

748
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,969
Speaker 1: laying in bed, watching out the window. She was just like,

749
00:47:59,030 --> 00:48:00,310
Speaker 1: you could walk in the room, she wouldn't even look

750
00:48:00,350 --> 00:48:03,170
Speaker 1: at you. She didn't care. And so I feel like

751
00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:07,330
Speaker 1: Those are always the answers that I have received, at

752
00:48:07,350 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: least in my limited experience. It's just like the little

753
00:48:12,219 --> 00:48:15,100
Speaker 1: things in life that we often take for granted. You know,

754
00:48:15,219 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 1: our health, our time, our presence, the people around us,

755
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 1: little things, birds chirping, you know, the ability to drive.

756
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,190
Speaker 1: That's a big thing as people get older.

757
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:31,969
Speaker 2: Yeah. And what is so interesting, and I've talked about

758
00:48:32,010 --> 00:48:35,810
Speaker 2: this a little bit, is when I got sober, It

759
00:48:36,850 --> 00:48:41,790
Speaker 2: was shocking to me how many more photos of birds

760
00:48:42,030 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 2: and nature and trees and sunsets and clouds that I

761
00:48:49,460 --> 00:48:54,460
Speaker 2: have on my phone now. it's just like, I didn't

762
00:48:54,620 --> 00:48:58,130
Speaker 2: realize how much I was muting those things. And so

763
00:48:58,230 --> 00:49:01,029
Speaker 2: actually to hear you say that is so encouraging, right?

764
00:49:01,070 --> 00:49:03,589
Speaker 2: It gives me in a sense, new fuel for when

765
00:49:03,630 --> 00:49:08,029
Speaker 2: I talk about that, right? Is that, um, is that

766
00:49:09,110 --> 00:49:12,710
Speaker 2: when I, when I stopped numbing, you know, and I've said,

767
00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:15,910
Speaker 2: I've said this like alcohol, drugs, whatever is not a

768
00:49:15,989 --> 00:49:17,549
Speaker 2: selective numbing agent, right?

769
00:49:17,570 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: It's not a precision numbing agent. It numbs everything.

770
00:49:21,660 --> 00:49:24,219
Speaker 2: And so if you're telling me that the things that

771
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: people at the end of their life are those small things, right?

772
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: The presence, the time, right? But the birds and the

773
00:49:30,580 --> 00:49:34,510
Speaker 2: sunsets and the nature and like taking those in, man,

774
00:49:34,610 --> 00:49:37,890
Speaker 2: how much more encouraging is that to me to know?

775
00:49:39,050 --> 00:49:43,430
Speaker 2: I finally stopped numbing those things, right? I've started to

776
00:49:43,469 --> 00:49:49,110
Speaker 2: be able to enjoy those things more now. And I'm like, yes, praise,

777
00:49:49,830 --> 00:49:54,430
Speaker 2: praise God. I remember you wrote, I think this might've been,

778
00:49:54,450 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong. It might've been the one

779
00:49:57,219 --> 00:50:01,420
Speaker 2: that you did for me as a guest post. But

780
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,669
Speaker 2: your encounter with an addict, and just how it changed

781
00:50:06,770 --> 00:50:11,779
Speaker 2: your perspective on addiction in general. I'd love for you

782
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,940
Speaker 2: to talk about that story and what you learned in

783
00:50:14,980 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 2: that encounter.

784
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,420
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think, I mean, the big thing,

785
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: so this story is really just a gentleman who was

786
00:50:25,100 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: admitted for, like, basically liver failure, like end-stage cirrhosis induced

787
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:39,190
Speaker 1: by alcohol addiction, and he was experiencing active withdrawals. And,

788
00:50:40,050 --> 00:50:43,790
Speaker 1: you know, in the ICU space and almost any hospital,

789
00:50:45,530 --> 00:50:50,130
Speaker 1: these situations can be pretty frequent. And so sometimes nurses, doctors,

790
00:50:50,489 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: caregivers can get a little callous. But this gentleman in particular,

791
00:50:56,940 --> 00:51:04,330
Speaker 1: he was very, very anti-conversation, anti-everything. And there's one day

792
00:51:04,370 --> 00:51:07,850
Speaker 1: where I noticed that on his arm, he had a

793
00:51:07,850 --> 00:51:17,049
Speaker 1: name tattooed to his arm. And we were able to

794
00:51:17,090 --> 00:51:19,529
Speaker 1: make a connection over time. It took a bit because

795
00:51:19,570 --> 00:51:21,850
Speaker 1: he's pretty calloused. And so it did take a bit

796
00:51:21,890 --> 00:51:25,489
Speaker 1: to kind of connect. But ended up being he lost

797
00:51:25,550 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: his wife and turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Hmm.

798
00:51:32,190 --> 00:51:36,710
Speaker 1: And no one else had been able to connect with

799
00:51:36,750 --> 00:51:40,410
Speaker 1: him far enough to get that out. And truthfully, he

800
00:51:40,450 --> 00:51:43,930
Speaker 1: wasn't volunteering that information. It was only after I noticed

801
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:47,290
Speaker 1: a name on his arm, I think it was Heather,

802
00:51:49,170 --> 00:51:52,589
Speaker 1: that I was able to kind of ask about, like

803
00:51:52,660 --> 00:51:58,460
Speaker 1: prompt it. And then turns out, yeah, his wife had

804
00:51:58,500 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: passed away in a sudden something. and he was just

805
00:52:04,739 --> 00:52:07,940
Speaker 1: absolutely crippled from it. And so he went to the easiest,

806
00:52:08,980 --> 00:52:16,780
Speaker 1: most convenient, accessible option to numb it, which was alcohol.

807
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,930
Speaker 1: And so the powerful part about that story was the

808
00:52:20,969 --> 00:52:26,730
Speaker 1: fact that his daughter arrived, who he had, him and

809
00:52:26,770 --> 00:52:30,850
Speaker 1: his wife had a daughter, and this daughter arrived, and...

810
00:52:31,530 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 1: they were able to have a moment of clarity and reconciliation,

811
00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:42,020
Speaker 1: excuse me, from years of, of separation, years of hurt. Um,

812
00:52:42,580 --> 00:52:48,850
Speaker 1: and frankly, years of this man feeling like everybody was

813
00:52:48,930 --> 00:52:52,590
Speaker 1: putting him into just the alcoholic category instead of actually

814
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: like understanding his pain. And so, um, There was a

815
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,140
Speaker 1: moment at the very end where he was able to,

816
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: like I said, reconcile with his daughter. And it was

817
00:53:03,180 --> 00:53:08,450
Speaker 1: a very touching moment hearing her forgive him and say

818
00:53:08,469 --> 00:53:12,089
Speaker 1: that she understands the pain because she experienced it too.

819
00:53:12,530 --> 00:53:17,470
Speaker 1: And obviously, the way to cope in that direction was

820
00:53:18,530 --> 00:53:21,350
Speaker 1: not the right way to cope. But at the same time,

821
00:53:21,469 --> 00:53:24,750
Speaker 1: to be able to look beyond the judgment of that

822
00:53:25,170 --> 00:53:28,750
Speaker 1: and to get deeper and connect at a more deeper

823
00:53:28,890 --> 00:53:33,170
Speaker 1: level with what was truly going on was ultimately the

824
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:37,219
Speaker 1: path to healing. You know, it's a good reminder that like,

825
00:53:38,739 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: and I don't always love this word recovery, you know,

826
00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: and I resisted it for a long time only because

827
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: I think it can be kind of confusing. Like, what

828
00:53:47,860 --> 00:53:48,899
Speaker 1: does it mean?

829
00:53:48,940 --> 00:53:53,540
Speaker 2: What is it? And how one person defines it becomes

830
00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:57,410
Speaker 2: used as a weapon against other people who don't define

831
00:53:57,450 --> 00:53:58,069
Speaker 2: it that way.

832
00:53:58,610 --> 00:53:59,529
Speaker 1: It can get messy.

833
00:53:59,870 --> 00:54:02,810
Speaker 2: But one of the things that I think is good

834
00:54:03,830 --> 00:54:08,569
Speaker 2: is that ultimately in this work of recovery, it is

835
00:54:08,910 --> 00:54:15,550
Speaker 2: important to remember that it truly is walking people through

836
00:54:15,850 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 2: getting over For lack of a better term or working

837
00:54:19,460 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 2: through the things that are deep inside of them, the

838
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:31,290
Speaker 2: deep woundings. Right. And it's, you know, that's why, you know,

839
00:54:32,430 --> 00:54:38,029
Speaker 2: popular phrases. It's not just about behavior modification. And it's

840
00:54:38,110 --> 00:54:42,110
Speaker 2: like when I talk about the traumas in the world,

841
00:54:42,150 --> 00:54:45,330
Speaker 2: I'm like, listen, everyone has experienced trauma. And I'm not

842
00:54:45,370 --> 00:54:47,670
Speaker 2: just trying– I'm not saying that as like a psychiatrist.

843
00:54:47,710 --> 00:54:52,150
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to diagnose everyone. But sin and brokenness

844
00:54:52,210 --> 00:54:55,050
Speaker 2: exist in the world. And because of that, every person

845
00:54:55,090 --> 00:55:00,009
Speaker 2: has experienced trauma. Like the ripple effects that have gone

846
00:55:00,150 --> 00:55:04,290
Speaker 2: out from what happened in Genesis 3 are felt by

847
00:55:04,469 --> 00:55:08,009
Speaker 2: every single person. And so for this guy, I think

848
00:55:08,030 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 2: you call him Mark in the story. It's like Mark, alcoholic. Yes.

849
00:55:15,070 --> 00:55:18,529
Speaker 2: And yet what is truly at the root and the

850
00:55:18,670 --> 00:55:23,190
Speaker 2: core of what is ailing Mark is not alcoholism. It's

851
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:28,810
Speaker 2: not his dying liver. It's that he experienced grief and

852
00:55:28,910 --> 00:55:30,980
Speaker 2: tragedy and didn't know what to do with it.

853
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:31,950
Speaker 1: Yeah.

854
00:55:32,210 --> 00:55:38,660
Speaker 2: And, and I just love the idea of bringing Jesus

855
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,739
Speaker 2: into heal those woundings.

856
00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:42,580
Speaker 1: Right.

857
00:55:42,820 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: And then, you know, working towards the sobriety and then

858
00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 2: working towards the physical healing, if you will. As we

859
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:58,650
Speaker 2: start to wrap up here, Devin, I'm curious, is there

860
00:55:58,710 --> 00:56:02,450
Speaker 2: anything else that you kind of learned about addiction or

861
00:56:03,050 --> 00:56:05,609
Speaker 2: through some of the people that you encountered that were

862
00:56:05,650 --> 00:56:09,030
Speaker 2: struggling with addiction in your work as a chaplain?

863
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:14,989
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. Yeah, you know, some

864
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:17,390
Speaker 1: of the hardest cases I've ever had are people who

865
00:56:19,050 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: were labeled as an addict. You know, we're talking like fentanyl, alcohol,

866
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:33,009
Speaker 1: you name it. I've seen lots of ways of overdose. And,

867
00:56:33,370 --> 00:56:36,069
Speaker 1: you know, not all of them were like necessarily like

868
00:56:36,090 --> 00:56:39,610
Speaker 1: suicide attempts either. They were just truly like just taking

869
00:56:39,630 --> 00:56:41,950
Speaker 1: them because it became a habit and that habit fueled them.

870
00:56:43,350 --> 00:56:46,569
Speaker 1: you know, addiction and it just kept going. And, um,

871
00:56:47,489 --> 00:56:51,150
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, for me, someone who I've

872
00:56:51,170 --> 00:56:55,790
Speaker 1: struggled in my own, own life with many different things and, um,

873
00:56:56,230 --> 00:57:00,670
Speaker 1: not perhaps in addiction to like a substance, but, uh,

874
00:57:00,710 --> 00:57:02,589
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, even like something simple as like

875
00:57:02,610 --> 00:57:05,430
Speaker 1: social media addiction is terrible too. And getting wrapped up

876
00:57:05,469 --> 00:57:07,830
Speaker 1: in things until they start to like change how you

877
00:57:07,850 --> 00:57:11,290
Speaker 1: perceive the world. And, and ultimately, um, that's what addiction

878
00:57:11,350 --> 00:57:14,489
Speaker 1: does is it starts to like perceive things differently and

879
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:16,970
Speaker 1: perceive the world around you and you can't imagine a

880
00:57:16,990 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: world without the thing, right? And I guess the thing

881
00:57:20,980 --> 00:57:23,700
Speaker 1: that I've learned about the most about all of that

882
00:57:23,780 --> 00:57:27,700
Speaker 1: is that there's always something else going on and that

883
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,030
Speaker 1: it's not our role, especially as men and women of faith,

884
00:57:32,610 --> 00:57:37,350
Speaker 1: to judge or to berate or to stereotype. It's our

885
00:57:37,430 --> 00:57:40,860
Speaker 1: role to connect. It's our role to lean in It's

886
00:57:40,990 --> 00:57:44,940
Speaker 1: our role to point to Jesus and to hold on

887
00:57:44,980 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: to that hope because, you know, like Mark, there's always

888
00:57:49,020 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: something else going on. There's something that caused this to form.

889
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,450
Speaker 1: And I think with all of my chaplaincy, with all

890
00:57:58,470 --> 00:58:00,870
Speaker 1: of the things that I've been, all of the people

891
00:58:00,910 --> 00:58:03,990
Speaker 1: that I've been with, with all of the funerals that

892
00:58:04,010 --> 00:58:09,450
Speaker 1: I've officiated, it's always come down to presence. Being present

893
00:58:09,770 --> 00:58:14,150
Speaker 1: with people is always a good thing. And to actually

894
00:58:14,190 --> 00:58:20,180
Speaker 1: connect with people on a human-to-human level and try to

895
00:58:21,940 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: share the hope of Jesus with them is the way forward.

896
00:58:27,620 --> 00:58:32,300
Speaker 1: Those who are struggling with addiction, stereotypes and judgment and

897
00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: shame will never work. What will work is... Creating space,

898
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: being quiet, and letting them talk about what they're going through.

899
00:58:43,260 --> 00:58:46,290
Speaker 1: And then maybe you'll have something to say or listen

900
00:58:46,450 --> 00:58:51,330
Speaker 1: or a posture that just shows like, you know, a connection,

901
00:58:51,450 --> 00:58:58,350
Speaker 1: a willingness and a desire to understand. Yeah. I don't

902
00:58:58,370 --> 00:59:00,390
Speaker 1: know if that makes any sense. No, it does.

903
00:59:00,410 --> 00:59:02,110
Speaker 2: Because I talk about it in my first book, you know,

904
00:59:02,130 --> 00:59:05,550
Speaker 2: when it comes to helping people with anxiety. right so

905
00:59:05,610 --> 00:59:08,050
Speaker 2: often people just want to throw out a scripture verse

906
00:59:08,430 --> 00:59:11,370
Speaker 2: right don't be anxious about anything and you know just

907
00:59:11,390 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 2: these platitudes and and and whatnot because in the end

908
00:59:16,530 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 2: they are really just uncomfortable with sitting with someone and

909
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:26,020
Speaker 2: and just being there being a presence right and not

910
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,740
Speaker 2: having the answers and being able to say I don't

911
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 2: this sucks, this sucks. And maybe I don't fully understand,

912
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 2: but I'm just going to be here. And I think,

913
00:59:38,340 --> 00:59:40,740
Speaker 2: you know, when it comes to grief, it's very similar.

914
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:46,310
Speaker 2: And so one of, I think a powerful way to

915
00:59:46,350 --> 00:59:48,590
Speaker 2: be Jesus to people is to be willing to be

916
00:59:48,730 --> 00:59:51,170
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with them, to be willing to sit in the

917
00:59:51,210 --> 00:59:55,930
Speaker 2: mess with the addict, with the, with the griever, with

918
00:59:55,990 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 2: the mourner. And And say like, listen, yes, like you

919
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, we're walking through the valley of the shadow

920
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: of death.

921
01:00:06,940 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: And we are here.

922
01:00:08,860 --> 01:00:13,470
Speaker 2: And it is dark. And I'm going to be with

923
01:00:13,490 --> 01:00:16,650
Speaker 2: you through it. I'm going to continue holding your hand

924
01:00:17,230 --> 01:00:19,170
Speaker 2: until we get to that other side.

925
01:00:19,230 --> 01:00:20,990
Speaker 1: And there is another side.

926
01:00:22,300 --> 01:00:25,780
Speaker 2: Devin, thank you so much for your insights, for sharing

927
01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 2: the stories. You know, I just want to continue to

928
01:00:28,100 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 2: encourage people that like that. I just I take away

929
01:00:35,670 --> 01:00:37,850
Speaker 2: one of my biggest takeaways, I think, is that idea

930
01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:41,690
Speaker 2: of presence and that when you look back on your

931
01:00:41,730 --> 01:00:45,130
Speaker 2: life and when when people have looked back on their life,

932
01:00:45,310 --> 01:00:49,490
Speaker 2: what they what they are thinking about is, did I

933
01:00:49,630 --> 01:00:50,490
Speaker 2: was I more present?

934
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,140
Speaker 1: Like, was I fully there? Yeah.

935
01:00:54,340 --> 01:00:57,140
Speaker 2: And time and time again, we know that that's what

936
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 2: our addictions steal from us. They steal from us our presence,

937
01:01:02,420 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 2: the presence of God, right?

938
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:07,430
Speaker 1: In our lives. And so, um, I thank you for,

939
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,650
Speaker 1: for sharing that with us today. I was just going

940
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 1: to say, I think, you know, I think that's exactly it.

941
01:01:13,930 --> 01:01:16,590
Speaker 1: I have a buddy of mine who went through some really,

942
01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:20,470
Speaker 1: really tough things in his life. And, uh, He would

943
01:01:20,510 --> 01:01:23,470
Speaker 1: always use the word that says trench. He always compared

944
01:01:23,490 --> 01:01:25,650
Speaker 1: it to walking through a trench, a really deep trench.

945
01:01:26,570 --> 01:01:29,490
Speaker 1: And so our saying back and forth whenever things were

946
01:01:29,510 --> 01:01:32,169
Speaker 1: going really, really terrible for either of us was always,

947
01:01:32,770 --> 01:01:35,140
Speaker 1: you know, trenches always was what we'd always say to

948
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,060
Speaker 1: each other. Trenches always. And it just basically meant that

949
01:01:38,380 --> 01:01:40,540
Speaker 1: no matter how deep this trench is, no matter how

950
01:01:40,580 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: long this trench is, like we're in the trench together

951
01:01:43,260 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: and we're going to get out. And so I think...

952
01:01:45,970 --> 01:01:47,810
Speaker 1: you know, as a chaplain, as a human being, no

953
01:01:47,850 --> 01:01:50,050
Speaker 1: matter what our vacation is, where we're planted in life,

954
01:01:50,970 --> 01:01:53,630
Speaker 1: to walk with people in the trenches and to have

955
01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:55,350
Speaker 1: someone walk with us when we go through a trench

956
01:01:56,110 --> 01:01:59,690
Speaker 1: is the path forward. Let's do some trench warfare, right?

957
01:01:59,710 --> 01:02:02,870
Speaker 1: Something like that.

958
01:02:04,220 --> 01:02:08,060
Speaker 2: If people want to read your great writing, if they

959
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,100
Speaker 2: want to follow along your journey as you're telling some

960
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 2: incredible stories and sharing some other great insights, where can

961
01:02:14,980 --> 01:02:15,190
Speaker 2: they go?

962
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,180
Speaker 1: So I'm over on Substack. So I think if you

963
01:02:19,220 --> 01:02:23,910
Speaker 1: just type in Devin Comp at Substack, you'll find me.

964
01:02:26,250 --> 01:02:28,510
Speaker 1: That's my biggest thing. I do have a Facebook and

965
01:02:28,650 --> 01:02:32,190
Speaker 1: Instagram now too. And so I do share and cross-link

966
01:02:32,210 --> 01:02:34,490
Speaker 1: and all that nerdy stuff that I don't quite understand

967
01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:38,180
Speaker 1: how to do. But Substack is probably where you'll get

968
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,660
Speaker 1: the most access to my stuff, the quickest updates, all

969
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 1: of that.

970
01:02:43,830 --> 01:02:47,530
Speaker 2: As you're, as you're, uh, writing in between 12 hour

971
01:02:47,670 --> 01:02:52,230
Speaker 2: ER shifts, um, sharing incredible insights.

972
01:02:52,750 --> 01:02:56,050
Speaker 1: Devin, thank you so much. Appreciate you. Love you, brother.

973
01:02:56,790 --> 01:02:59,610
Speaker 2: Um, and good luck as you be Jesus to people

974
01:02:59,730 --> 01:03:02,310
Speaker 2: in some of the hardest times of their life.

975
01:03:03,490 --> 01:03:04,410
Speaker 1: Amen. Thank you for having me.

976
01:03:06,410 --> 01:03:10,550
Speaker 2: I just love the stories like the lady with that.

977
01:03:10,590 --> 01:03:11,660
Speaker 1: Just want to hear the birds.

978
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:18,090
Speaker 2: Um, He wrote about that guy, like the person behind

979
01:03:18,140 --> 01:03:21,340
Speaker 2: the label. And so it's interesting because there's a lot

980
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 2: of people I've had that have said like, John, why

981
01:03:23,460 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 2: do you, you know, your book called Confessions of a

982
01:03:25,780 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 2: Christian Alcoholic, like why do you use that term alcoholic?

983
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,100
Speaker 2: And I'm very clear to point this out. It's because

984
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 2: I don't use it as an identity statement. I use

985
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:35,860
Speaker 2: it as a descriptor. Now, I think a lot of

986
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,530
Speaker 2: people and too many people use it as an identity statement.

987
01:03:39,550 --> 01:03:41,210
Speaker 2: But if you can use it correctly, I think it

988
01:03:41,230 --> 01:03:44,390
Speaker 2: can actually be really powerful. I use it like Paul

989
01:03:44,490 --> 01:03:49,070
Speaker 2: uses it. I use it to say, I know the

990
01:03:49,130 --> 01:03:52,430
Speaker 2: sin issue that my heart is bent towards. And at

991
01:03:52,550 --> 01:04:01,210
Speaker 2: any moment, I am never above being stupid enough to,

992
01:04:01,670 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 2: if I'm not guarded, to end up right back there.

993
01:04:06,340 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 2: The moment that I think I have this thing whipped,

994
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,540
Speaker 2: the moment that I think that I am never, ever

995
01:04:11,620 --> 01:04:14,130
Speaker 2: going to go back Man, that's when I let my

996
01:04:14,150 --> 01:04:14,550
Speaker 2: guard down.

997
01:04:15,590 --> 01:04:18,830
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm an alcoholic. The only drink I can

998
01:04:18,850 --> 01:04:22,790
Speaker 1: say no to is the first one. One is one

999
01:04:22,810 --> 01:04:26,230
Speaker 1: too many, one more is never enough, as Brad Paisley

1000
01:04:26,270 --> 01:04:34,550
Speaker 1: and Alison Krauss sang. And so, yet, there is a

1001
01:04:34,670 --> 01:04:35,890
Speaker 1: person behind that label.

1002
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:37,130
Speaker 2: Right?

1003
01:04:37,530 --> 01:04:41,430
Speaker 1: There's a story behind that label. And so maybe.

1004
01:04:42,550 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 2: you struggle with that well that's fine I'm not saying

1005
01:04:44,820 --> 01:04:48,900
Speaker 2: you have to call yourself that but especially if you're

1006
01:04:48,940 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 2: listening to this and you're a friend or a loved

1007
01:04:50,460 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 2: one or a family member I know that I struggled

1008
01:04:54,300 --> 01:04:56,900
Speaker 2: when my sister was in the throes of addiction before

1009
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:01,630
Speaker 2: she passed to really see the person behind the pain

1010
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:05,390
Speaker 2: that she was causing to us and those around her

1011
01:05:06,330 --> 01:05:09,090
Speaker 2: and it's one of my biggest regrets don't give me

1012
01:05:09,110 --> 01:05:11,130
Speaker 2: that crap about not having regrets if you don't have

1013
01:05:11,170 --> 01:05:12,370
Speaker 2: regrets you're not alive.

1014
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: I have regrets.

1015
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:18,540
Speaker 2: I regret that I did not see my sister more

1016
01:05:18,580 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 2: as a person instead of a problem. Not her problems,

1017
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:27,380
Speaker 2: a problem. And so that story, I think, really brings

1018
01:05:27,420 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: that home. Thank you as always to our partner, Life Audio,

1019
01:05:33,300 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 2: lifeaudio.com to listen to other great podcasts. Just so thankful

1020
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:39,890
Speaker 2: for the people that continue to reach out to me

1021
01:05:40,620 --> 01:05:44,730
Speaker 2: and say that this podcast has has helped. And that's

1022
01:05:44,770 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 2: a testament, not to me, but to the Lord. And

1023
01:05:46,820 --> 01:05:50,740
Speaker 2: so thank you. You can like it, rate it, subscribe, whatever.

1024
01:05:51,260 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 2: But really, if there's just one thing that has touched

1025
01:05:53,940 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: you that you think would touch someone else, please share it.

1026
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,090
Speaker 1: We'll see you back here again next week.