1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey Nick, thanks for joining me. 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 2: Are you trying me? Michael? 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 3: Nick Skitland, vice president of Glue for AI research. I 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 3: wanted to have you on, Nick to discuss some new 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 3: research that Barna and Glue has out now about pastor's 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 3: use of AI. 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I could read the data for you, Nick. 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 3: But I want you to kind of help us interpret 9 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 3: the data as you read it. How are pastors using 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 3: AI and do you have any caution for their usage? 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, Michael, that's a good question. And so this 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 2: is a year long research series that Glue and Barna 13 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: have been doing around faith and AI, and of course 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: it's all part of the State of the Church initiative, 15 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: and it is really interesting data and that we've we've 16 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: released aboutja pastors are using AI or not. And what 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: we're seeing in the data is, honestly, pastors are probably 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: using AI and more than you think they like all 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: us are adopting AI, and I would say that it's 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: becoming the norm, not the exception. So if you kind 21 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: of look into the data, only thirteen percent of pastors 22 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: say they don't use AI at all, meaning of course 23 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: a seven percent using it in some form or fashion, 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 2: which makes sense because AI is obviously mediating more of 25 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: all of our experience in the world than it's becoming 26 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: part of the work that we all do. I do 27 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: think it's important to note that pastors are using it, 28 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: like again, probably a lot of us are as a 29 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: thought partner and not substituting themselves at church or the 30 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: pulpit with AI. They are using it for things like brainstorming, 31 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: idea generation, research, turning content into small group questions, and 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: of course padmin pasts as well, and so so overall, 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: I think that's kind of what the data showing us 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: is that pastors are using it. Do you only talk 35 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: really quick see cautions about. 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: Well, let's flesh out some of what you just said. 37 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 3: I'll go ahead read it for those who want to 38 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: know some details. Fifty percent use it for brainstorming and 39 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 3: idea generation, thirty seven percent use it for graphic design 40 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: or visual creation, thirty six percent for biblical or theological research, 41 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 3: thirty four percent for generating small group discussion questions I've 42 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 3: done that before, thirty four percent for administrative tasks like scheduling, 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: emails and document preparation that's going to actually lead us 44 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 3: to one thing that you actually thought was useful in 45 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 3: the research, which is you said that oftentimes pastors get 46 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 3: bogged down and you know, administrative tasks. Tell me how 47 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 3: AI can help with that, And I guess we can 48 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 3: talk about the good in AI before we turn to 49 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 3: some caution. 50 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, first of all, I mean, I think we 51 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: might all Agredea that pastors are some of the most 52 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: over extended leaders in the world, right, I mean, especially 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 2: if you're the posture of say a men sized church. 54 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: You're the CEO, you're the counselor, you're the communicator, you're 55 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: the chaplain all at once, and you know if the 56 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: church is smaller here, and it's even more so true. 57 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: And so I think it's really important to note that 58 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: postures of course from leveraging NA like a lot of us, 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: due to the administration part of our work. And that's 60 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: that's exactly what I mean, I would hope pastors do, 61 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: because we want to free them up from that type 62 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: of work to do the really important missional biblical work 63 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: that they're mandated to me that the pastor in their community, 64 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: to their congregation. 65 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: Some more data we haven't discussed yet. 66 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: The majority of pastors, seventy nine percent worry about AI 67 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 3: acting as a replacement for God. 68 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: Two thirds of pastors. 69 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: Sixty three percent worry about AI replacing the role of 70 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: pastors or spiritual leaders entirely. I think much of the 71 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 3: country is concerned about AI replacing their jobs. 72 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: So I understand. I understand that. 73 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: More controversial, of course, is that I guess when we 74 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 3: use AI for creative tasks and spiritual tasks like writing 75 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 3: sermons or writing a study, school lessoner or whatever. 76 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: And the data has some information about that as well. 77 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 3: Twenty four percent of pastors actively use it to write 78 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 3: edit sermons. That's I believe, double what it was twenty 79 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 3: twenty four. Give me some advice there, Nick, What advice 80 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 3: would you give pastors who are considering AI for writing sermons? 81 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: What cautions would you give pastors in terms of that 82 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 3: issue or any other issues? 83 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm just a nuance around the data, right, 84 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 2: So yes, last year, twelve percent reported that they're using 85 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: AI to assist them in the work of certainly creation, 86 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: which might be around editing sermons. Right, Twenty four percent 87 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: today are using it, and of course we expect that 88 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: trend to increase. I think the nuance matters. It's you know, 89 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: in many cases they're reporting. This is largely used for 90 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: research and commentary and looking at at theological angles and outlines, 91 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: not necessarily generating the message itself. And that's really important 92 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 2: because if you think about how AI is trained, it's 93 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: trained on secular, pluralistic information. It's like turning to Reddit 94 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: for marriage advice is probably not what we're going to 95 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: find in the Bible. And so I think the caution 96 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: for pastors is to recognize the bias that's in the 97 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: responses from AI. And of course you can prompt AI 98 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: to better align it with the biblical perspective, but by 99 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: default AI is not going to start there, and we 100 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: want to So we want to make sure that our 101 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: AI is vislines fl all the work that glue does. 102 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 2: We want to make sure that AI is in the 103 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: service of human flourishing, not just substituting for it. And 104 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 2: then as pastors, you know, our encouragement is to use it, 105 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 2: of course as a starting point, but never ever the 106 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 2: ending point. And in a way to think about this 107 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: is AI as a tool for reclaiming time, you know, 108 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 2: freeing the pastor up for the work that act requires 109 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: the them to be present, to be human, and to 110 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 2: be doing the work of human formation, and we're seeing 111 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: not in a lot of how pastors are reporting how 112 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 2: they're using it, is that that's exactly what they're doing, 113 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: that they're using it so that they can have more 114 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: time for the work of the church. 115 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a lot of people have probably learned 116 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 3: about the I don't know what to even call it, 117 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 3: but how how powerful AI is when John Piper went 118 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 3: viral for John Piper asked AI to write a prayer 119 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: about a year or two ago, and it sounded exactly 120 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 3: like a theologian's prayer, and so, yeah, it could be 121 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 3: very tempting on Friday, you're running late on your sermon. 122 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: You haven't written all of it yet, maybe you're running 123 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 3: behind because of hospital visits or a funeral or whatever. 124 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 3: I don't know if you have any cautions your thoughts 125 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: about that, Nick, but I think I think that's probably 126 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 3: the temptation, and they concern from a lot. 127 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: Of people because I mean, my goodness. 128 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, for graphic design and for brank storming ideas or 129 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: even for biblical ideological research, it can be really helpful. 130 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: I like to say, I mean the pastoral judgment. Though 131 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: the work of the pastor is essential especially in a 132 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: future where AI is making things more efficient, and so 133 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: it would be tempting as humans to outsource our judgment 134 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: or the task to AI in the name of efficiency, 135 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: especially when we're retired at stander of the week. They 136 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: haven't quite prepared like we want to prepare. And I 137 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: think pastors are feeling the weight of this because their 138 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: job is fundamentally formation. It's not just generating information as 139 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: form storming in humans, and that shaping work is what 140 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: we're called to do in the Bible. It's God's mandate 141 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: for us. And so I think if we can keep 142 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: that in mind and keep in mind that friction matters, right, 143 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: it might be easier to talk to a machine than 144 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: it would be a human, but we wanted three passers 145 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: up to do the formational work in human relationships sometimes 146 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: results in friction that we don't want to just in 147 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: the name of efficiency, use AI to to do a 148 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: way better. 149 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: I would caution anyone who uses AI to double check 150 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: what it tells you. And I say this. I say 151 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: this because I use it for a fact checking a lot. 152 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, In the past week, I was writing a story 153 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 4: about Savannah Guthrie's mother, who of course went missing. And 154 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 4: I was just using it kind of as a Google 155 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 4: at the time, and I wrote, I typed in a 156 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 4: prompt and said, when did Savannah Guthrie's mom go missing? 157 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 4: And I was winning a date from this year, like 158 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 4: January February, I couldn't remember, and it said nineteen seventy 159 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 4: and I, you know, of course, I pushed back. I said, 160 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 4: I said that's you know. I said, that's the wrong answer, 161 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 4: and it said, you know it. Of course, it said, 162 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 4: you're correct to push back on that. It's not you 163 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 4: know whatever, February the first I forgot the date. So yeah, 164 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 4: so if you're using it for any kind of research, 165 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 4: just double check what it tells you because it, I 166 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 4: guess the term is hallucinating in the AI world, that 167 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 4: AI can hallucinate and just give you completely wrong information 168 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 4: and then you'll be standing up there a little bit 169 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 4: telling something that's. 170 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: Completely wrong and you'll even realize it. 171 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean AI is biased, it's not theologically neutral, 172 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: humble worldview, and it hallucinates. Right, And so again, if 173 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: we're outsourcing all this without thinking critically about the answers, 174 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: that's a problem. We should never ever be doing it. 175 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: You know that The challenge is though it becomes such 176 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: a temptation. You know, it's just so easy to do, 177 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: and you give one good answer that seems close, and 178 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: so you start to trust it more. And we as 179 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: leaders in the church need to remember that the church 180 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: has always been a place to focus on human formation. 181 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: It's not just informed, it's not just about efficiency, and 182 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: so the work that we do really really matters that 183 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 2: maybe maybe more than ever in the age of AI. 184 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: Before we close, Nick give us some final thoughts on 185 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: this research. 186 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 3: And secondly, what is glue For those who don't know 187 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 3: anything about glue? 188 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: By the way, it's gloo for those who don't know 189 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: anything about you guys. What is glue? And how people 190 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: get more information about what you guys do? 191 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Blue is a technology company working to have 192 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: that intersection of faith and technology. We build AI that 193 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: you can trust for answers that are actually biblically accurate, 194 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: theologically aligned. We serve that faith and flourishing ecosystem. So 195 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: not only the four hund and fifty thousand churches in America, 196 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: but also the nonprofits, the faith faith organizations that are 197 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: all serving the church in one way or the other. 198 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: So we build technology that you can trust. And if 199 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 2: you want to learn more about the research that we've 200 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 2: been doing, you can of course go to Barna dot 201 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: com check out the State of the Church research series. 202 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: There's a lot of really really good stuff that you 203 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: can also go to Glue dot com slash FAI which 204 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 2: stands for Flourishing AI, and that's where we publish all 205 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: of our research and our benchmarks about how the models 206 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 2: are doing when it comes to human flori. 207 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 5: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe 208 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 5: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks 209 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 5: to the team at Life Audio for their partnership with 210 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 5: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot 211 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 5: com you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts 212 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 5: in their network. 213 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: See you next time.