1
00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000
Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

3
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360
Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast.

4
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm Doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

5
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,200
Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

6
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,319
Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

7
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640
Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

8
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,920
Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Everyone you call them make

9
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 1: a difference. In mental health. Columbia International University offers graduate

10
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,720
Speaker 1: counseling degrees that combine professional excellence with Biblical truth from associates.

11
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,479
Speaker 1: Through doctoral program, CiU prepares you to bring healing and

12
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: wholeness to others through a biblically based framework of compassion

13
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 1: and care. Whether it's their carep accredited Masters in Clinical

14
00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,600
Speaker 1: Counseling or their PhD in counsel or Education and supervision.

15
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,200
Speaker 1: You'll learn from experienced faculty who integrate faith with real

16
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 1: world application to cultivate a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach,

17
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 1: and train. Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career,

18
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,680
Speaker 1: CiU's counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally

19
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,319
Speaker 1: and spiritually. You can visit CiU dot edu to learn

20
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,280
Speaker 1: more about making a difference in mental health through christ

21
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,760
Speaker 1: centered education. That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, welcome to

22
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,360
Speaker 1: this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and

23
00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,720
Speaker 1: I'm joined today by doctor Jackie E. Perry. She is

24
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,600
Speaker 1: a clinical supervisor, a professor of counselor education at Columbia

25
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,479
Speaker 1: International University, and she's also the president of the soul

26
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 1: Well Center. And we're going to talk a little bit

27
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 1: about what that is, what that does, what she does,

28
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,399
Speaker 1: and we'll get into a lot of topics related to

29
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,520
Speaker 1: faith and mental health. So, doctor Perry, welcome to the program.

30
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:45,600
Speaker 1: Really excited to have you here.

31
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

32
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 1: Well, maybe just to start out, tell people a little

33
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,200
Speaker 1: bit about the work that you're doing at the soul

34
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:53,919
Speaker 1: Well Center.

35
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just Pausiti formidting. Yeah. I live in Asheville,

36
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 2: which is in western North Carolina, and in my teaching

37
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 2: as a professor of counseling, probably about ten years ago,

38
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,359
Speaker 2: I was teaching a course that is called Skills. It's

39
00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,239
Speaker 2: sometimes called helping Techniques. It's just the class that counselors

40
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,480
Speaker 2: get that really teaches them how to sit across from

41
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,720
Speaker 2: one another. And as I was teaching it for the

42
00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,720
Speaker 2: first time, I had taken it many decades before, it

43
00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 2: really occurred to me that I felt like the church

44
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,040
Speaker 2: could use these skills in a layman's way. And though

45
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,119
Speaker 2: I'd been involved in different lay ministries, Stevens Ministry, things

46
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,720
Speaker 2: like that, I didn't see the kind of teaching that

47
00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,960
Speaker 2: we were giving counselors that I felt like could really

48
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,240
Speaker 2: easily cross over. So I created a beta course with

49
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,400
Speaker 2: quite a few pastors and just individuals in western North Carolina,

50
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,639
Speaker 2: and the course led to kind of this organization, the

51
00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,080
Speaker 2: nonprofit called the Soul Law Center, And the idea was,

52
00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 2: what if we equipped just ordinary people, parents, pastors, friends,

53
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 2: nonprofit leaders, business people with a chunk of good skills

54
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 2: combined with the neuroscience behind relationships and why these skills matter.

55
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,600
Speaker 2: And that's what started the Soul Center. James, the vision

56
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,560
Speaker 2: still is to equip people. The goal is and we're

57
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 2: not here to have a center where well equipped folks

58
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,240
Speaker 2: that are not licensed clinicians can hold a safe space

59
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:34,400
Speaker 2: for anyone wanting to be heard ununderstood. So we're in process.

60
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,080
Speaker 2: The nonprofit has just been official for about two going on, yeah,

61
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 2: two and a half years, and we're definitely still in

62
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,200
Speaker 2: an early growth stage. But it has been fantastic to

63
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,520
Speaker 2: see people in this community equipped, you know, just even

64
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,360
Speaker 2: the feedback of how it's changing their families and listening

65
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 2: in a new way.

66
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. On the website, it talks a little bit about,

67
00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, the listening courses being related to this sort

68
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 1: of growing epidemic of loneliness and certain mental health problems.

69
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 1: And so I mentioned before we got on you know,

70
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 1: I've done a little bit of this in relation to

71
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,000
Speaker 1: social media, and you know, some of this work Jonathan

72
00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,560
Speaker 1: Heights put out and you know, various different things where

73
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,040
Speaker 1: social media is being linked to mental health problems and

74
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,200
Speaker 1: loneliness and all those kind of things. But I'm wondering

75
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: what else you're seeing and how this course really sort

76
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,480
Speaker 1: of dives into that those notions of loneliness and mental

77
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:30,400
Speaker 1: health problems.

78
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I'd love to just back up and

79
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 2: talk about that for just a minute, please. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

80
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 2: it's a huge part of this course, and it is

81
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,400
Speaker 2: a huge part of a problem we're seeing in mental health.

82
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,279
Speaker 2: So I've been in the field for about thirty five

83
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,040
Speaker 2: years and probably in the last fifteen I remember sitting

84
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 2: with colleagues and noticing the shift and the kinds of

85
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,640
Speaker 2: people who were coming in James and we began to

86
00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,919
Speaker 2: see a shift. And this is there was a consensus

87
00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,520
Speaker 2: among my peers anyways, from people who had really, you know,

88
00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,159
Speaker 2: serious issues going on or semi serious, two people who

89
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,039
Speaker 2: really just didn't have anybody who listened to them, whether

90
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 2: that was an adolescent, an emergent adult, or an adult adult,

91
00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,680
Speaker 2: that really we weren't doing the clinical work that some

92
00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 2: of us were used to doing. We were providing a

93
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,039
Speaker 2: safe space. And there's just you know, it makes me

94
00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,520
Speaker 2: scratch my head in terms of especially being a Christian,

95
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,120
Speaker 2: It's like, wait a second, why aren't we doing this better?

96
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,200
Speaker 2: I mean, we all have this imprint on us that

97
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 2: is this deep, deep desire to be seen and known.

98
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,680
Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of contributing factors to

99
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 2: the reasons why we're seeing globally, it's not just in

100
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,960
Speaker 2: the US. Globally, these numbers rise, the way we live,

101
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 2: our lives, all of that, but fundamentally it comes down

102
00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 2: to this. It's like two people talking and people being

103
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,840
Speaker 2: able to offer the other person the sense that when

104
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,280
Speaker 2: you walk away you feel seen, like oh Jackie really

105
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,280
Speaker 2: saw me, or you know, and I and I and

106
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,279
Speaker 2: vice versa. And I think something has happened in our

107
00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 2: families and our culture where we don't even have a

108
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 2: mental model anymore. I mean, that's what I'm seeing in

109
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,719
Speaker 2: the class. It's like, this kind of listening is not

110
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 2: something I've experienced outside of accounseling office. That is a

111
00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,960
Speaker 2: very common statement of just oh this, this feels really

112
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,279
Speaker 2: good when we're practiced. There's a lot of practice in

113
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 2: the class, and so I think it's like, wow, this

114
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 2: is deep if we don't have a mental model from

115
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,520
Speaker 2: ideally our upbringing, whether it was parents or grandparents, and

116
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 2: I don't know how to offer you what I also

117
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 2: need and lung for myself. And so then we see

118
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 2: this trickle effect like Okay, where do I get that?

119
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,200
Speaker 2: Hopefully you're getting that from you know, hopefully you get

120
00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,680
Speaker 2: that if you pay for a therapist. But yeah, I

121
00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,000
Speaker 2: mean goodness, that's not accessible for the majority of people

122
00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,440
Speaker 2: around the globe who can pay for a therapist. And

123
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,160
Speaker 2: it's one of the biggest reasons behind the Soul Wall

124
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 2: Center was it's just not feasible for many many people

125
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 2: for a lot of different reasons, and a lot of

126
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,480
Speaker 2: people aren't going to go into therapy office because it's

127
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 2: like I don't have a problem. I just feel unseen,

128
00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,120
Speaker 2: you know, And that is a problem, we know, but

129
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,120
Speaker 2: it's not enough that it feels urgent, you know, understood.

130
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like there's a malaise. Would you describe

131
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 1: it sort of an ongoing sense of tension that I'm

132
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,080
Speaker 1: just sort of floating alone in the world and don't

133
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 1: have really any outlet to have a real connection or

134
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,480
Speaker 1: any intimacy with anyone. Is that sort of the feeling.

135
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,600
Speaker 2: I think. I think that's a big part of it.

136
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 2: I think you said that well, and I think part

137
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 2: of it is like I don't know what I don't

138
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,120
Speaker 2: have if I've never had it. I don't know what

139
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 2: I'm missing if I've never had it. And one of

140
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 2: the sad but true things that's happened in this course

141
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 2: is now, you know, not just in our community, in

142
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 2: other places is the feedback is one of the biggest

143
00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,840
Speaker 2: things that was the takeaway was other people practicing these

144
00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,200
Speaker 2: skills on me made me taste of them. Actually sometimes

145
00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 2: for the first time, it was like I came in

146
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 2: because I wanted to be a better listener at my

147
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,920
Speaker 2: job or at my home, and it's like, oh, that

148
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,480
Speaker 2: felt really good, and sadly for some people, it's like

149
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 2: it upped the thirst. And then it's like, Jackie, I

150
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 2: don't have these people who I'm not going to dominate

151
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 2: my small group. I don't know how to offer this.

152
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 2: I don't know how to get this. I don't know

153
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 2: how to describe what I need. I can offer it

154
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 2: maybe a model, but yeah, it's tough. So you know,

155
00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,839
Speaker 2: I have our team has trained even small groups and

156
00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 2: small group leaders so that they can be the ones

157
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,679
Speaker 2: that facilitate this a little bit more in terms of

158
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 2: like what does this look like? But we have a

159
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 2: long way to go. I mean the numbers are really high.

160
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it almost feels like So I was a

161
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,080
Speaker 1: personal trainer when I went through my seminary degree, and

162
00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that I found, and I think

163
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,240
Speaker 1: I even experienced in my own life was it's almost

164
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,120
Speaker 1: like the frog is being boiled in the kettle. Like

165
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,680
Speaker 1: you always hear that analogy, but it really is kind

166
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: of true because when people come in and they're overweight,

167
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,440
Speaker 1: and you know, they're carrying a lot of extra pounds

168
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,319
Speaker 1: and they're not particularly strong. The transformation you can get

169
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,679
Speaker 1: them to go through by helping them lose some weight,

170
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 1: develop some strength, and the way that their body now feels,

171
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:29,160
Speaker 1: you're resetting what good feels like. And when they're heavy

172
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,600
Speaker 1: and they're weak, they don't really understand that that's not

173
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,480
Speaker 1: they don't feel good, it's just their normal, right. And

174
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 1: I think when I, yeah, I went through a period

175
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,680
Speaker 1: where I had some pretty heavy weight gain and I

176
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 1: felt fine, right, But then when I lost the weight,

177
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember, now this feels good right, Like, yes,

178
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:49,319
Speaker 1: so much better.

179
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that parallel. I. Yes, you don't know

180
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,800
Speaker 2: what you don't have. Yeah, if you've never felt that,

181
00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 2: if you've never had that deep connection, if you were

182
00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 2: raised in a home where everybody came home and went

183
00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:04,080
Speaker 2: to their rooms and suffer together, wasn't a thing, and

184
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 2: you didn't have eyes on you. Okay, let's talk about

185
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,959
Speaker 2: that for just a minute, because there's a lot There's

186
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,840
Speaker 2: a wonderful writer, doctor Gabram Mattee. He writes about attachment

187
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,680
Speaker 2: and families and trauma, and he uses this phrase I

188
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,240
Speaker 2: use a lot with my students. It's called these eyes

189
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,840
Speaker 2: of delight. Looking at people with eyes of delight, like

190
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,680
Speaker 2: even when you're having quick exchanges with them, the eyes

191
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,040
Speaker 2: of delight is like this quick bond that can form,

192
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 2: and the deeper the bond goes, the more this person's

193
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,920
Speaker 2: likely to follow me. Well, when you grow up with

194
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,040
Speaker 2: this in front of you, really truly for much of

195
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,680
Speaker 2: your life, eyes of delight or eyes towards you, not

196
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 2: even eyes of delight, just eyes towards you, can actually

197
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,679
Speaker 2: feel like a threat. It really can't you. You can

198
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 2: feel like why are you looking at the stop it

199
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 2: and working? My specialty area is adolescents and emergent adults

200
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,560
Speaker 2: and families, and so you know, we now have a

201
00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 2: generation of people that it's like we don't know how

202
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 2: to say hard things to each other. They're all now

203
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,200
Speaker 2: becoming parents and then some we would, we would we

204
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,439
Speaker 2: can construct sentences that send it to them. Or now

205
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,120
Speaker 2: where we are right now is we have parents who

206
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,520
Speaker 2: are using AI to help them find the words to

207
00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,720
Speaker 2: say to their children. That's coming up to my supervision

208
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 2: cases is just yeah, yeah, it's like I don't even

209
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 2: know how to find the words, so I'll text them

210
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 2: to you in this way, child, And it's like we

211
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,640
Speaker 2: are now another step away from the messiness of human relationships,

212
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,000
Speaker 2: which is like, it's not supposed to be perfect. It's

213
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,320
Speaker 2: just to make us feel uncomfortable when we have new

214
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,720
Speaker 2: or hard or conflicting messages to give to one another.

215
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 2: It's not supposed to be you know, I don't know

216
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 2: a state of calm, so we even have that, right,

217
00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 2: But intimacy can't be formed if you're not willing to

218
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 2: enter those waters. And so then and what I mean

219
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 2: my intimacy is I mean emotional intimacy, the depth of relationships.

220
00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 2: Me knowing you, you knowing me. We will always hit

221
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,559
Speaker 2: this place. And if it's like we back out, then

222
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,600
Speaker 2: what a setup to not have very deep relationships where

223
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:05,960
Speaker 2: we can go there.

224
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,959
Speaker 1: So obviously the technology is creating some sort of distance, right,

225
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,040
Speaker 1: But then it also seems like what I'm kind of

226
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 1: hearing you saying, maybe I'm inferring it incorrectly, but that

227
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 1: there's a vulnerability that we're no longer willing to give

228
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,400
Speaker 1: away in order to have these relationships. And so part

229
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,679
Speaker 1: of it, maybe the distancing that technology provides. But then

230
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,320
Speaker 1: a part of it is the modeling as you're talking about,

231
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 1: and then it just feels like we've gone into a

232
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,320
Speaker 1: more protective shell, like we don't want to be vulnerable,

233
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,200
Speaker 1: we don't want to we don't want to have those hard,

234
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,760
Speaker 1: intense conversations. Maybe we're afraid of hurting other people. Maybe

235
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,080
Speaker 1: we're afraid of getting hurt ourselves. Is that part of

236
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,880
Speaker 1: what you see when when you're dealing with these folks.

237
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would say this, let me normalize

238
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,240
Speaker 2: that because I think fundamentally that's who we are as humans.

239
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 2: It's like a push. It's like I want you to

240
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,480
Speaker 2: know me. I mean, I think about my relationship with s.

241
00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,880
Speaker 2: Gott and I was sharing this in the question just

242
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,000
Speaker 2: weekend with students. It's just like this deep satisfaction of

243
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 2: knowing we're reading someone thirty nine, of just knowing that

244
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 2: he knows us, and he sees us, and he sees

245
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,200
Speaker 2: us whether there's light or dark, all of that and

246
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 2: how wonderful that is, and what the group was talking

247
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,280
Speaker 2: about is also how terrifying that is. So this is

248
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,320
Speaker 2: fundamentally who we are. It's like I want it. And

249
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 2: it's also like ah, because we fear you know, a

250
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,720
Speaker 2: lot of things. The voice of shame plays a role

251
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 2: in that, like what if he really knew? Or what

252
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 2: if she really knew? All of this? So I think

253
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,960
Speaker 2: that's always there and that's always at play. But I

254
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,559
Speaker 2: also think that if we are in this era where

255
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 2: again I didn't have a mental model for it, I'm

256
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,640
Speaker 2: not seeing it in my peer group or my adult

257
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 2: peer group. It really is kind of classified neurologically in

258
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 2: my brain as a threat, as a bigger threat, and

259
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 2: it gets bigger, and so what should be ideal and

260
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,960
Speaker 2: good is like even more of a threat threat threat.

261
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,600
Speaker 2: And if we just look at fundamentally how we're wired, well,

262
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 2: when we have a threat response, what do we do

263
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 2: we don't have a skill, we go to two extremes.

264
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:15,160
Speaker 2: We either avoid where we attack, and that that's kind

265
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,199
Speaker 2: of what we do when we don't have a response

266
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,840
Speaker 2: in general, we're going to go to the extreme of

267
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 2: get me out of here, or.

268
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 1: What are you trying to do?

269
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,560
Speaker 2: Why are you asking these questions? What are you trying

270
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 2: to find something? And you know, I've heard some teenagers

271
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,360
Speaker 2: talk to me that way, so and it's like, oh no, no, no,

272
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 2: that's not what's happening here. So I think there's that too.

273
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 2: We can code things as threats that are actually quite good.

274
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 2: And we see this definitely with trauma, where people who

275
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 2: experienced some trauma they the very thing they long for

276
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 2: is very scary because of the way their body has

277
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 2: encoded people, relationships, situations, stressors, et cetera, et cetera.

278
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, So when you're doing the listening groups,

279
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 1: I guess I have a couple of questions I'll ask.

280
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 1: I'll ask one first, and then I'll i'll do a

281
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:12,480
Speaker 1: fall level see where it goes. But so I would think, guy,

282
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,160
Speaker 1: I grew up as an only child, right, and so

283
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,680
Speaker 1: we weren't we weren't like an around the dinner table

284
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,640
Speaker 1: kind of family, like we ate on TV trays in

285
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,520
Speaker 1: front of a television, right. So I didn't have a

286
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,640
Speaker 1: lot of I was almost like the original screen kid.

287
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,160
Speaker 1: You know, It's not like my parents and I never talked.

288
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 1: But there wasn't a real big expectation that we were

289
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 1: like going to be the Waltons and sit around the

290
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 1: table and have dinner, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,

291
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,000
Speaker 1: And so I was just sort of raised as a

292
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 1: much more independently minded person, right, And so I don't

293
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,960
Speaker 1: have a lot of real close friends. I have a

294
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 1: very small circle of real close friends. And so when

295
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,720
Speaker 1: I hear listening circles and like trying to understand how

296
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,800
Speaker 1: to listen to other people, I give my head around

297
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,560
Speaker 1: that and go, yeah, I probably do need to listen

298
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,880
Speaker 1: to other people. The scary part for me would be

299
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,200
Speaker 1: having someone else listen to me, Like, that's the part

300
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,880
Speaker 1: I don't really want care for, right, Like I'm good

301
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 1: without that.

302
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly exactly what I'm talking about, that tension.

303
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, So do you find like that dynamic? How do

304
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 1: you break somebody out of that? Because I mean I

305
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 1: could see myself in my head going well, I just

306
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 1: have to do it and then see how that feels.

307
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,680
Speaker 1: But I don't know, like how much does it take

308
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,120
Speaker 1: for that to just sort of habituate in and go,

309
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,600
Speaker 1: oh no, this is a really pleasant thing. And now

310
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 1: I could see doing this more often, Like having been

311
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 1: a rained for forty eight years, how likely am I

312
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 1: to change? I guess maybe that's the question.

313
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you.

314
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 3: Can answer that question more than I can, for sure,

315
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 3: But I yeah, you're talking about something that I think

316
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,280
Speaker 3: you know, most people can identify in some way, shape

317
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 3: or form a totally different story.

318
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 2: Lots of kids in my home for girls, lots of conversation.

319
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 2: Because it doesn't mean it doesn't mean that there was

320
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,520
Speaker 2: like a tuned listening where I felt heard. It's still,

321
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 2: you know, something I get sad about sometimes when I

322
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 2: go back home. It's like I don't feel known there sometimes,

323
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,199
Speaker 2: you know. So I don't necessarily think it's like a

324
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 2: ripping open of my soul and like offering it. But

325
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 2: I do think the question for me, in healthy relationships,

326
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 2: whether it's two people in a partnership or good friends,

327
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,360
Speaker 2: is there a gentle moving towards can you offer each

328
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,119
Speaker 2: other a little more? And I think for some people

329
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,240
Speaker 2: that happens very fast because they feel comfortable and they

330
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,960
Speaker 2: grew up in a place where like emotional intimacy is

331
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,120
Speaker 2: just like the part of the risk taking they take

332
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,480
Speaker 2: in relationships, whether it's you know, really naming an emotion

333
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 2: really really specifically or what we call granularly in the field,

334
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 2: or we're just being like I'm feeling sad. There's a

335
00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 2: difference between sad and deeply distressed, right, So I think

336
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,960
Speaker 2: if there's movement towards each other. But unfortunately that's not

337
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,680
Speaker 2: always the case. Like I think, there's sometimes there's a momentum. Actually,

338
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,159
Speaker 2: especially when I look at families, there's a momentum of

339
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 2: moving away or just this stuckness where everybody's sort of

340
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,920
Speaker 2: facing outward. And if we look at the I mean,

341
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 2: if we go back to the narrative of the Grand

342
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 2: Native Scripture, it's like this, we were made for more.

343
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,919
Speaker 2: And yes it's scary if I've never had it, But

344
00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 2: am I willing to sort of go in that direction?

345
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,040
Speaker 2: Who is it Benner who talks about to the extent

346
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,440
Speaker 2: that I know God, I know myself, and the more

347
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,639
Speaker 2: I know myself, I know God. And I can't do

348
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 2: that work without another. Meaning even this requires community, and

349
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 2: so even knowing me requires somebody else as well as

350
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 2: my relationship with God. That this models the Trinity, and

351
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 2: we resist that, we resist that. I think there's a

352
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 2: tension in all of us if we're honest.

353
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,879
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I've thought about in

354
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:12,360
Speaker 1: the past is I think about discipleship as the church's coordination. Right,

355
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 1: Discipleship is what sort of keeps us all on the

356
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 1: same page. But it to your point, there's this sort

357
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 1: of inertia or centrivigal force that's sort of pushing us

358
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 1: away from that central point. It happens in families, you

359
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 1: can kind of see it happening in churches. My thought

360
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 1: has been, you know, you've got busyness, you've got the

361
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,439
Speaker 1: ability to travel, you've got you know, less sort of

362
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 1: local community if you can kind of grasp what I'm

363
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 1: saying there, what this listening piece seems like it would

364
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 1: really play into that though, that because we're not in part,

365
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,639
Speaker 1: because we're not doing this, there's no reason for us

366
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 1: to really stick together. Am I overreaching there? Or is

367
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,880
Speaker 1: that that's something you would like? Does that resonate.

368
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 2: Because we're not doing say it again? I don't think yeah.

369
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 1: So, because we're not doing this sort of listening it

370
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 1: is a tuned listening, we lose a reason to stay together.

371
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 1: In other words, if I felt known somewhere, I would

372
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 1: tend to always go back there, right, gotcha? Versus like,

373
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 1: because we're not doing it and we don't have any

374
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: of those real deep connections, the the centrivigal forces that

375
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,920
Speaker 1: kind of pull us away and out, they're easy to follow. Yeah,

376
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 1: they're easy just to go along with yeah.

377
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I have lots of thoughts in my head,

378
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 2: but the first one that comes to mind is yes,

379
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: agree with you. But but then look at our world.

380
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 2: We have oh gosh, in a million different ways, movement

381
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 2: towards things to see if I can get what I

382
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 2: don't even know how to name. So I look at

383
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 2: addictions as that, just like you know, addiction to pornography.

384
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 2: It's like it's never enough. That's why you keep doing it,

385
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 2: because it's never satisfying this deep thing in me overdoing

386
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 2: this or under it's it's so yes, it's like I

387
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 2: don't know to even that I need this, So why

388
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 2: would I move towards you? But if we look at

389
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,879
Speaker 2: any person's life, we probably could see a hunt going on,

390
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 2: a hunt for something that maybe is unnameable, that maybe

391
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 2: has to do with this thing that's deep inside of us,

392
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: just simply because of a human And yeah, I just

393
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 2: want to name again the power of shame in this

394
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: This is from the very beginning of the store of

395
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 2: the Grand Narrative, right, It's like the enemy uses shame

396
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 2: to sort of go this play, don't share that, don't

397
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: name it. And we have this other tension in the

398
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 2: other opposite direction, which is the father saying let me

399
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: see you know, like where are you? This first question

400
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 2: where are you? And it goes where are you? It

401
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 2: was where are you? Who said that? Those are some

402
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 2: of the first questions, And so there's this invitation on

403
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: the other end that I do believe, you know, if

404
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 2: most people can at least tap into some level of introspection,

405
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it's there, it's just it's playing out

406
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: not in moving towards people. It's like I'm searching again.

407
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: I think this is one of the reasons why social

408
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 2: media has grown exponentially. It's because it's part of that hunt.

409
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 2: There's just never enough. It's the illusion of connection, and

410
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 2: it's never been it's never been sufficient. Like it taps

411
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: in on that. There's beautiful things that come from that,

412
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: but it's never sufficient. What's sufficient is but oftentimes people

413
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 2: say they go on these extreme things and they get

414
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 2: away this random group of people and they're on this

415
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: adventure and it's like, I never felt so kind of

416
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 2: what you were talking about, Like, yeah, that feeling that

417
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 2: you have when you lose all the weight, it's like, oh,

418
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: there it is.

419
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. With and then it's a question of how do

420
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: you capture that on a day to day sort of basis,

421
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 1: And part of it has to be just rooting yourself

422
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: in the relationships that are right in front of you

423
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: and having this experience of knowing and being known is

424
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: kind of how it would work.

425
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm deeply aware of even what's happening between you

426
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: and I, Like if we were having this phone call

427
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 2: for me and what I experienced just in this conversation

428
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: so far, James is very different because I can see

429
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 2: your eyes, I can see your softness, I can see

430
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,719
Speaker 2: this two way. So we have this incredible thing in

431
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: technology to be able to do this, to be able

432
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: to facilitate calling my friend who might live on the

433
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 2: other side of the world, but to be able to

434
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 2: sit with them.

435
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

436
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember who it was. It was a

437
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: therapist and they were talking about how they connect with

438
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: friends they haven't seen, and I thought that's pretty intense.

439
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 2: But it was like, they don't say anything for ten

440
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 2: minutes and they just look at each other and it

441
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: usually ends up in just lots of tears. This deep

442
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: connection that happens when you just look at each other powerful. Yeah,

443
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: and I'm probably incredibly uncomfortable.

444
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: Time, really awkward.

445
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: It might even have been more than ten minutes, because

446
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: I remember going, ooh, that's a lot.

447
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Can I nap while we're doing this?

448
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 2: Look at you? Can I cut my eyes while I

449
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: look at you?

450
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to picture you in my mind.

451
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well I will say this too, which is probably

452
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: you know this. It's it's a thing that we know,

453
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: but it's like the power of it is pretty fascinating.

454
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: Most of what's happening in a conversation is not verbal,

455
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: and so a big part of the class is actually

456
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 2: harnessing that and realizing that what you need and what's

457
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: what you're processing for me is happening before my words

458
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 2: come out. That's a fact. We know that from neuroscience,

459
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: and so it's why I can say something with a

460
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 2: very flat affect that I want you to really hold

461
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: and you'll be like, you don't believe that. Or I

462
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 2: could also say you're a jerk, you're terrible, and you'll

463
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 2: be like, she doesn't really think that about me, because

464
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: you're so I think that's that too. I think there's

465
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: this piece that we need to see each other because

466
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: there are seven or eight things that are happening nonverbally

467
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 2: that are processed and felt faster. That's a big part

468
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: of the class is helping people realize that, like, yeah,

469
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: you don't actually need to say a whole lot to

470
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: sit with people in hard places.

471
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. My wife was just talking about she started,

472
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 1: she shifted to more remote work, and so she's been

473
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: doing a lot more meetings on Zoom, and so she

474
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: kind of got online did a little research looking at

475
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, how do you how do you do this right?

476
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: How do you make connections over zoom? One of the

477
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: things she found was that hands up, like big hands

478
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: kind of movements like this, they are they express sort

479
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: of a friendliness and an openness. And so she's like,

480
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: you know, whenever you get on a meeting, you should

481
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: just hand up, like hey, everybody right, And I'm like,

482
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: it feels so weird, but I found myself doing it

483
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: more often than so there you go. Yeah, I don't

484
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: know whether it's working, but it's I'm like, it's one

485
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: of those little things that you wouldn't necessarily go, you know,

486
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,239
Speaker 1: what I should do? Put my hand up?

487
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 2: But that's right.

488
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: Evidently there's there's all those different little cues, right that

489
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to sort of that really do communicate

490
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: really if.

491
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: You're trying to mimic what happens in a face to

492
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: face conversation, which you would see the person's whole self.

493
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's why you know, if I was like this,

494
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be the same, right, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

495
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: we've learned that. I mean, I think COVID really fast

496
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: forwarded all of our learning on that. There's like a distance,

497
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: it's comfortable, and I even just now you shrugged your shoulders.

498
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: I could see that I wouldn't if anyways, we're getting

499
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: lost on that. But but communication is a fascinating thing

500
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: and how much we yeah, push stword it in a

501
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: way from it in terms of connection.

502
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this because you had mentioned,

503
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was about twenty five or

504
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: thirty years ago you're and your colleague started noticing that

505
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: people weren't coming in just for like major mental problems,

506
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: but they're starting to come in just to get this

507
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: sort of back and forth, this intimacy, and so that

508
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: tracks well pass I think like the onset of social

509
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: media and those kind of things, right, actually.

510
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: Said, I started about thirty five years ago so.

511
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: I can't when you started on their Yeah, and it.

512
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: Was in the past ten or fifteen years. It's definitely

513
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: pre COVID. Definitely pre COVID, probably more like five or

514
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: seven years pre COVID that it was like, something is

515
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 2: just different. We are seeing people who it's really kind

516
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: of hard to give a diagnosis. That was never the

517
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: case when I entered the field. We didn't struggle with them.

518
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: I mean, surely there's probably people who had a person

519
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: on their caseload, but we have clinicians who much of

520
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: their caseload is this person just doesn't have anybody is interesting.

521
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: I guess I'm wondering. My question is what do you

522
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: see as the impetus for that, because you know, theologically,

523
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: we could probably both sit and say, you know, there's

524
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: always been something lacking, right when we don't know Christ,

525
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: There's always going to be something lacking in these people,

526
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: and there's always going to be a sort of a

527
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: quest for a meaning in life. But then this onset

528
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: of it in the last ten or fifteen years, right,

529
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: what are some of the factors that you think are

530
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: culprits for sort of amping this up, like making it

531
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,239
Speaker 1: the way I think of it asn't. I don't think

532
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: there's a cause necessarily. I think there's an increasing intensity

533
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: that people are becoming more and more aware of its

534
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: sort of how I it's almost like having the volume

535
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: up too high on the TV and it reaches this

536
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: level where you're like, that's really loud.

537
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think most definitely it's multi factored.

538
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: So I always like saying like, there, could it be.

539
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: Could it be that we we do have more like

540
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: the efficiency that we have in our phones is actually

541
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: or are just technology has pushed us away from each other?

542
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: That's one thing. Could it be that I don't know

543
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: the impact of more single family homes, the impact of

544
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: one person providing for a family needing to be gone

545
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: and it's simply not enough margin to be able to

546
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: give children ideally what they need from at least a

547
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: parent throughout the days, which is eyes and presence, and

548
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: not this where we have that in families so much. Yeah.

549
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: Could it be the pace at which we live our lives,

550
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: especially in the West, and we don't allow for long

551
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: slow that we sometimes make fun of in other countries,

552
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: just even meal times that are just like you're going

553
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: to get your food when you get your food, and

554
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: that's how it works in this country, and so it's

555
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: slowing down, Like could it be that, Yeah, it could

556
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: be a lot of things. Yeah, it could be a

557
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: lot of things. And I don't think it's here to

558
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: blame oh if we didn't have phones. But I will say,

559
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: I will say my husband was in youth ministry for

560
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: a long long time, and I've always been involved with youth.

561
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 2: You do hear a younger generation saying as much as

562
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: they hate being away from their phones, there's this incredible relief.

563
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 2: But then and it's like, well, I can't have it,

564
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: none of us can have it. And it was the

565
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: best week of my life going to this retreat or

566
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: this camp or this whatever those two weeks. I do

567
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: a lot of consulting for local camps in western North Carolina,

568
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: and you see that it's just fascinating to see teenagers

569
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: be together without phones for two weeks, and so it's

570
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: a culprit. It's not the only thing, though, it's not

571
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: the only thing.

572
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: I just think there's a lot of Yeah, it's been interesting.

573
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: I know you sort of run a nonprofit organization. You're

574
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: doing a lot of other things too. But one of

575
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: the things I found when I stepped away from academia

576
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: was that I purposely decided that I was going to

577
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: slow lifetown, and so I didn't take the next big job.

578
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: I took a position with a nonprofit organization that was

579
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: a little smaller that I knew would slow life down.

580
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: And so I get, like, you know, a quarter of

581
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: the emails I used to get, and even those, I

582
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: know that most of them are not really that urgent.

583
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: Right unless it says pay immediately, I don't really need

584
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: to open it, right, and so things can just be slower.

585
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: And I think after just like I said, after being

586
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: in academia for such a long time and having everything

587
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: feel very urgent and being pressured to deal with things

588
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: like right now, right at this second, I just decided,

589
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: like I'd like to enjoy my kids occasionally, I'd like

590
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: to enjoy my family. And my family was telling me

591
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: that too, like you need to slow down, and so

592
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, you know, pull it back. I

593
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: don't think anything is really crept back in the way

594
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: it used to. But I can definitely say like texting

595
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: is becoming the new email. It feels like you're constantly,

596
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, like the buzzing and the chirping and whatever

597
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: else constantly on. It's constantly there. And even I've got

598
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: all my app silence, there's no alerts coming in on

599
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: my phone, Like I don't do any of that, right,

600
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: it's still very tempting to check. Yeah, it's crazy, yeah,

601
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: and so it's hard to believe. Like I'm with you.

602
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to put it on one thing either,

603
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: but I do think there's something to the three pieces

604
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: you noted, like this efficiency that we're chasing, which yes,

605
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: it makes something more efficient, but it's not our lives necessarily.

606
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: That's right, right.

607
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: The pace is just it's extraordinarily quick unless we grind

608
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: it to a halt. And those are just challenging things

609
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: I would imagine for people. But they do tend to

610
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: squeeze out relationships, conversations, they.

611
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: Do they do. I I want to say two things. One,

612
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy for you sincerely,

613
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: because I think that's a brave move, important move, because

614
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: I think what I see often is, you know, it's

615
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: when they're when our kids are gone, and then it's

616
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: like I missed it, And so it's hard to do

617
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: it in the midst of that and I would say

618
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: that's one of the drivers to people realizing I need

619
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: somebody to talk to is pain. Pain is one of

620
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: the things that brings people in and pain is one

621
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: of the things that helps them recognize I don't want

622
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: to be alone in pain. I can be alone in

623
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: a lot of things. But when I hit pain, which

624
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: we all will, every one of us in some way,

625
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: shape or form, it's like it brings to the surface

626
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: some of what we maybe didn't know we needed, We

627
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: didn't even know that we were so so I love

628
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: that for you, that you aren't in a place of like, oh,

629
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: they're all gone. Shoot. I wish I could have done

630
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: it differently, that you're doing this like that you can forecast.

631
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: That's a that's a huge, huge thing, which is which

632
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: reminds me, which makes me think of something else. And

633
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 2: this is semi related. It's related. I'm going to make

634
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: it related. It's just having a gone verisation with my

635
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 2: son last night, who is a principal two schools in

636
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: New York City, at two elementary schools, charter schools. And

637
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: and he's not that old, okay, he's twenty eight and

638
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: a half, so this old wise soul. And he said

639
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: who hated school. It's a funny thing that he's a

640
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: teach others and then principal, a hilarious thing, middle child

641
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: in every way. But anyways, he's like, Mom, this is

642
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 2: just like a huge problem. I have these young young

643
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: little people coming out twenty two, twenty three, and they

644
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: can't do this job. Is not that hard. This is

645
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: a pretty structured school. This is not crazy here. They

646
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: can't do this job. And so we had a long

647
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: hour long conversation about distress tolerance, a lack of distress tolerance.

648
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 2: And I think there's a connection here. I think there's

649
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: a connection here. I think one of the ways that

650
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 2: we learn to tolerate stress distress is in relationships. James.

651
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: It's like we build up our tolerance for some of

652
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 2: the discomfort in relationship. There's other things we do which

653
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: is risk taking and not a lot of over protection.

654
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: So that's a whole other thing we could talk about.

655
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 2: We have kids now that were raised in way overprotected.

656
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 2: Jonathan Hyde talks about a lot of people are talking, yes, right,

657
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: what I did growing up in the seventies and eighties

658
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: is you know, would be considered child of probably right,

659
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: some of it. Jonathan talks about this. Yeah, I love

660
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: his work, but I think that's part of it too,

661
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: is like there's just a moving away from stress period.

662
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: And so it's like they quit in eighteen teachers. This

663
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: has never happened. He's like, I had eighteen teachers that

664
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 2: two different schools quit and they were all under twenty

665
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: five years old. What is happening out there? Which is

666
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: again he's not that much older, but there was enough

667
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 2: of a difference honestly, even in cell phones and when

668
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: you gave them out to your kids and then in

669
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: those different years, and so I think that's another factor

670
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: that's part of what's missing sometimes as people enter adulthood,

671
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: this ability to tolerate distress, to which I said to him,

672
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 2: the good news is this is all learnable. You can

673
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: actually teach somebody, probably related to your former career. You

674
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: can actually teach somebody how do you begin to tolerate distress?

675
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: And what most people do naturally is not helpful, which

676
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: is white knuckle your way. You can wipe knuckle your

677
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 2: way through short term things. You cannot wipe knuckle your

678
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,959
Speaker 2: way through a job that's going to go day after

679
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: day after day, right unless you have some skills to

680
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: be able to tolerate the distress of little kids being

681
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: out of control, or parents getting mad at you, all

682
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 2: of that. So I think, I don't know. I think

683
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: that's another maybe impact product of lack of good relationships

684
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: that's playing into listening, and it's I don't know, those

685
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: all go together, but this distress tolerance is a big thing.

686
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question because I want to

687
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: see if there's a parallel here too. Like you know,

688
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: when you read this strength training literature, one of the

689
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: things you do if you're trying to build muscle is

690
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: you want to take your muscle to failure. But what

691
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: the literature shows is that if you take your muscle

692
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: to failure within let's say, five to ten repetitions of

693
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: an exercise, people have a much better perception that they've

694
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: actually failed than if they go beyond that. And you're

695
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: trying to guess, how would I fail if I'm going

696
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: to do fifteen or twenty or twenty five repetitions. The

697
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: longer the sets go, the easier it is for you

698
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: to misgauge how many more you could actually do. Interesting,

699
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: and so my question is, like when you when you're

700
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: training people to deal with those stressors. Do you tend

701
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: to focus on a small package stress right, like a

702
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: very minute, like here, let's just focus you in on

703
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: this little piece and deal with it versus you know,

704
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: long term in this job, you're going to deal with

705
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 1: all of this stress and it's going to be okay, right,

706
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean I think, yeah, I.

707
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: Think it's both. I honestly think it's both. But like, yeah,

708
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: if I was sitting with you and this is something

709
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: we're working back at, and maybe you're a teacher in

710
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: my son's school, it is like, get your eyes off

711
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 2: of where you think you should be, Like, that's not

712
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 2: where we're going to start. It's like looking at these

713
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: micro moments throughout your day that you're building up some

714
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: some some stress, uh resilience or a little bit more

715
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: tolerance level. That's typically how it's done. It's like these

716
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: little crements. There may be a dip that you can't

717
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 2: control because it's like this thing is going to happen

718
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: and it's going to submerge you. That's life. But it

719
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: typically is in these little and then leaps though. That's

720
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 2: the wild thing is like little things end up creating,

721
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: So it's not always right. Yeah, that's the word I

722
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: was looking for. Yeah, yeah, it is very very true.

723
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: It is very teachable, but I think it's like, again,

724
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: the people who are going to learn that are failing relationships.

725
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: I have to learn this because I want to have

726
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 2: a relationship with my son or daughter, my wife or husband.

727
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, my job.

728
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: There's this thing that's happening. And then it's like there's

729
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 2: a little bit of motivation, like I've got to change,

730
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 2: I've got to do something a little bit different.

731
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: But again, yeah, well, and you can kind of see

732
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: how all of that sort of fits together. I mean

733
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: you think through Jonathan Height's work and sort of the

734
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: safety and security that has been provided because now the

735
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: pain of losing your job isn't as like if I

736
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: think about if I lost my job, I understand the

737
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: pain of it, right, Like I need to now go

738
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 1: find another job, and that job search is difficult, and

739
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: every year I get older, it's getting more and more difficult, right,

740
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: Like you know, there's just certain things you just think about,

741
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: and so you're like, Okay, I got I got to

742
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: deal with where I'm at now because I need to

743
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: continue performing. I can't retire yet, right so right, because

744
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: there's no real net right now, that's not to say

745
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: that I'm scared of that or like being anxiety paralyzes

746
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: me or something like that, but just the reality of

747
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: the situation. You know this is going to be bad.

748
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: But sometimes it feels like maybe with younger generations there's

749
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: too much of a safety net and so when something

750
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: gets painful, it's like, well, it's just easier for me

751
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: to default back down to this easy, sort of safe

752
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: kind of lifestyle. And I don't know it. You can

753
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: see how that sort of his research dovetails with what

754
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: you're saying. I think it's probably not as clean as that,

755
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: but the general idea is I think crucial to make

756
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: that connection of the more safety we feel doesn't necessarily

757
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: mean that we are fully functioning human, right, Like there

758
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: are aspects of it that we lose because we're just

759
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: too safe. There is such a thing as being too

760
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: safe one percent.

761
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, so let me just go to like a

762
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: theological place I think. I think one of the fascinating

763
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 2: thing about working with adolescents is I believe part of

764
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: God's design is risk taking is supposed to happen in

765
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: that season because it's like the beginning of having a

766
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: vision for something beyond that's scary and bigger than you.

767
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 2: In fact, we know dopamine levels begin to draw around

768
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: twelve or thirteen, and it's interesting, it's like, that's such

769
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: a bummer. I would have liked that to not be

770
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: the case with my teenagers. It's why they're kind of

771
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: sometimes they're flat. We see crocks, and so the theory,

772
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: one of the theories is it's because they now need

773
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: to go look for things that are going to give them.

774
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: You know, some of them do that, well, gotcha, taking

775
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: a hard course or auditioning for something or trying out

776
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: for something new. Those are going to give some and others,

777
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: you know, break into buildings and steal you know, that's

778
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 2: a dopamine verse or drugs or what all. But I

779
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 2: just think about how much, you know, if we can

780
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 2: get a snapshot of how God has designed us and

781
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: what he's inviting us to do with him, each one

782
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: of us globally, it's like beyond what we could usually imagine.

783
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: And it requires again, distress, It requires a lot of these.

784
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: It requires an ability to enter into relationship to tolerate distress.

785
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: And so when you talk about what you were just saying,

786
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 2: it's just sort of this default. It's like it must

787
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: grieve the Lord so much to just see us sort

788
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 2: of like, yeah, that's okay, because it's like there's this capacity,

789
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 2: this invitation. I like that word better, like I'm inviting

790
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 2: you to co labor with me, the god of the universe,

791
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: and it's always going to feel bigger than you. It's

792
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: always going to feel ridiculous in some ways maybe, but

793
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 2: that's what you get to do if you can actually

794
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 2: dream big. And I think you're right, I don't. I

795
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: think a lot of young people are dreaming big and

796
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: doing amazing things. So I certainly don't want to put

797
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: into any kind of box at all, because I see

798
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 2: amazing things, but I see the counter of that too.

799
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: It's just sort of like I don't know, Like I

800
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: was supervising a case with it. I think he's twenty one.

801
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: He's a tech school now because his parents want him

802
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 2: to be there, and he's like, you know, I think

803
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: I'm happy just working at the ice cream shot down Down,

804
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 2: and we as I'm listening to this tape with this

805
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 2: therapist I supervised, it's just sort of like that's kind

806
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 2: of bummer, not that there's anything wrong with working, do

807
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: you know, what I mean, it's just sort of yeah, there's.

808
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: Not that sense of like movement forward right, like you know,

809
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: it feels like a stagnation.

810
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'd almost rather see something ridiculous, like I don't know,

811
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: he's gonna be this rock star and I'm gonna start

812
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, we can use that. But when there's

813
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: like a flatness in the fuel, it's kind of like

814
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: what you're talking about. It's like, yeah, we're just taking

815
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 2: exit ramps left and right and just settling for whatever

816
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: lands in our lap. And is that living? I don't think.

817
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think so. And again, yeah, there's

818
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: privilege at we're not talking about that. There's privilege here

819
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: in that some people it's like good luck, that's not

820
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 2: going to happen in my situation. I don't have choice.

821
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about those. I'm just talking about in general.

822
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: This is patterning that's happening.

823
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: So no, it's hissery. I mean. Jurgen Moltman, he wrote

824
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: Theology of Hope. If you're familiar with Jurgen Moltman, he's

825
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 1: got a great quote in there about sin and he says,

826
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, sin isn't just this sort of tremendous desire

827
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: to be like God. It's also the passivity, the unwillingness

828
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: to move, the complacency that keeps us from being who

829
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: God requires us to be. And I think that's sort

830
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: of what we're hitting on here. It's this like I

831
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: don't want to step out and even try anything. I

832
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: just want to be cared for, thank you, and I

833
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: don't want to really put any skin in the game.

834
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: So Will said, yes, that's what we have right now.

835
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's something where that's the challenge.

836
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, Yeah, I think that is. Yeah, and there's

837
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: just a sadness. I mean it goes back to sort

838
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: of the relationships not being it back to you, James.

839
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 2: I'm just saying in terms of like why should I

840
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: why should I not? You know, why should I go

841
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: deeper in these relationships. It's like that's a part of

842
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: it too. It's not just about a vocation or a

843
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: co laboring. It's also like this is because this is good,

844
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: this is how I've made you, and this is not

845
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 2: partly like these deep relationships are an extension of the Trinity.

846
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 2: They really are that there's this beautiful thing that's happening

847
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 2: and it can't happen in hiding, And again it's like,

848
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: does that mean we all need to have like seventeen people.

849
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: No.

850
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: I always say people, if you have two or three people,

851
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: you are blessed, because I know too many people that

852
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: don't have two or three people that they could share

853
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: the deepest, most vulnerable part of their lives. And do

854
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: you have one person that you can do that with?

855
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 2: And you should consider yourself less because I think most

856
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: people don't. The second part of that is would you

857
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: you know, would you share that right you might have

858
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: that person?

859
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: Even if you have it, would you do it? Yeah?

860
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And there's goodness in that, just

861
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: to see the eyes that actually do ideally ideally reflect

862
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: the eyes of the Father, which is no condemnation. I

863
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 2: see you as you are.

864
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this has been great. I work running into time,

865
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: so I want to on your time and just really

866
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: appreciate you being on the episode though, And I'm wondering

867
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: if you'd answer just one last question. I usually ask

868
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: my guest one last question before they go, And so

869
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: you can go wherever you'd like to go with us,

870
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,879
Speaker 1: But what do you think the church needs to do

871
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: today in order to be and make more faithful disciples.

872
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: There's probably a million things you could come up with,

873
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: but I'm just, you know, kind of your your gut reaction.

874
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: What does the church need to do today?

875
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 2: Exactly where I started with you, James. Yeah, I really

876
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: think the church needs to become better at listening, at

877
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 2: really sitting and holding a safe space with the person

878
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 2: next to you and the pew, the person who's that

879
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: you see when you leave church, the extension of the church,

880
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: not just the building. But I think that is you know,

881
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: we can go on a whole nother forty five minute

882
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: conversation about the divisiveness that's at play in our in

883
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 2: our world, in our culture, and so I just can

884
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: you listen to the person who is one hundred different

885
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 2: than you and offer the eyes of Christ. We have

886
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 2: a lot, we have a ways to go in that.

887
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 2: I don't think that that's what we are known for.

888
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: Very good, Well, thank you very much for being on

889
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: the program. We're going to put the link to your

890
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: website to soul Well Center on the website and that's

891
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: where people can get the listening course. Correct, Yeah, yeah,

892
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: if they wanted to sign up. So the soul Well

893
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: Center if you're interested in doing the listening course. That's

894
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: where you can find more information about that, so you'll

895
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: see that link in the show notes. But also just

896
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: encourage you to pick up your book. Heart cries of

897
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: every team. I read through part of it before the interview.

898
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: I knew wouldn't be talking about the book very much.

899
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: I didn't read the whole thing, but really appreciated it.

900
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: My kids are teens, and so it's just one of

901
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: those it's like a good reminder. Yeah, they want to

902
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: be heard, they want to you know, they want to

903
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: be seen, they want to and so yeah, just really appreciated,

904
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: really appreciated what I was able to read there. But yeah,

905
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: check out the links in the show notes. Everybody really

906
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: encourage you to check out more of doctor Perry's work.

907
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, thanks again for being here.

908
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: Thank you James. A great week.

909
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: All right, everybody take care and we'll catch on the

910
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take

911
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for

912
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If

913
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of

914
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows

915
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: about prayer, Bible study, parenting and more