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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: And to think how much better of a dad is

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Speaker 2: the father that is probably not getting his feelings hurt

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Speaker 2: by me being angry with him or saying I disagree

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Speaker 2: with something or saying, I don't like the way this happens, God.

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Speaker 1: I don't like how this is. Whatever.

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Speaker 2: Like, what if he's big enough to handle all of

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Speaker 2: our stuff?

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we discuss

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Speaker 3: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear, big and small.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jennifer Slattery, and I've discovered a difficult but not

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Speaker 3: permanent reality. Disappointment and suffering can sometimes make God seem smaller.

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Speaker 3: We might recognize biblically that he's all powerful, loving, and

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Speaker 3: limitless in every aspect, but somewhere in the hardships and

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Speaker 3: uncertainties of life, we stop expecting him to show up

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Speaker 3: for us in those ways, we begin to fear our

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Speaker 3: circumstances are too big, that we may somehow be beyond

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Speaker 3: God's help. We need more of God. We need to

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Speaker 3: encounter the supernatural. And today, singer, songwriter, and author Tim

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Speaker 3: Timmons joins us to talk about how to recover a

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Speaker 3: bigger view of God and to recognize that he's always

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Speaker 3: bigger than our greatest fears, than our deepest pain. And

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Speaker 3: Tim is going to invite us to pray boldly. prayers,

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Speaker 3: while still entrusting. This is where it's hard. This is

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Speaker 3: where the wrestling is still entrusting our every outcome to him.

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Speaker 3: And Tim, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Of course. Of course. Let's go. It sounds fun.

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Speaker 3: Grammy nominator, singer, songwriter, worship leader, and author Tim Timmons

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Speaker 3: has spent more than two decades encouraging people to experience

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Speaker 3: the nearness of Jesus in everyday life. After being diagnosed

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Speaker 3: with incurable cancer at age 25, and y'all, he's still here,

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Speaker 3: he devoted his ministry to helping others discover hope through worship,

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Speaker 3: honest faith, and intentional discipleship. Tim is the founder of,

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Speaker 3: I'm so bad with zeros.

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Speaker 1: Yes. You're doing great. 10,000 minutes.

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Speaker 3: 10,000 minutes. And his story is portrayed in I Can

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Speaker 3: Only Imagine 2. And in his book, Waking Up Again,

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Speaker 3: A Journey of Grief and Gratitude, which inspired today's episode,

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Speaker 3: he shares his pain. his triumphs, his moments of profound

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Speaker 3: encounters with the supernatural that helped him to awaken to

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Speaker 3: the bigness of God. And Tim, I started reading your

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Speaker 3: book thinking it was working through hardship. And then as

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Speaker 3: I'm getting along, I'm like, oh, this is... really what

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Speaker 3: the title is. It's about coming alive and you really

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Speaker 3: walk us through that. So bring us back. There was

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Speaker 3: a time when, if I'm understanding your words correctly, that

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Speaker 3: you didn't have this massive view of God that you

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Speaker 3: do today, but something shifted. So what happened? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just to start out, if I can have

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Speaker 2: you read that bio to me every single morning, that

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Speaker 2: would be really helpful.

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Speaker 1: Just, I feel better about my life. So thank you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I say at the end of the book,

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Speaker 2: that I don't use a lot. I'm trying not to

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Speaker 2: use as many words ending in ed these days, but

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Speaker 2: more words ending in ing. So what have I learned?

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Speaker 2: I don't know what I've learned, but what I'm learning

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Speaker 2: is all this stuff. But what I went through and

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Speaker 2: what I'm continuing to go through. So I was given

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Speaker 2: five years to live 25 years ago, incurable cancer, stage

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Speaker 2: four tumor still in my liver today.

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Speaker 3: And you were just, you were first married, right?

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Speaker 1: We were just married for, I don't know, two years.

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Speaker 1: And I remember just.

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Speaker 2: This moment of my wife and I finding out about

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Speaker 2: this cancer.

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Speaker 1: They gave me five years to live. And you're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to do here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I remember just being, we write about it

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Speaker 2: a little bit in the book, but being on the

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Speaker 2: floor with my wife, just like sobbing, going, this was

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Speaker 2: not on our bingo card, you know, at all. And

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Speaker 2: even sitting there at one point, looking up at my

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Speaker 2: bookshelf and seeing this book promises of promises for the

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Speaker 2: graduate is what it was called and it was a

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Speaker 2: book of promises of god for us and i was

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Speaker 2: kind of calling bs on a bunch of those promises

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Speaker 2: i'm like okay i don't know how this all works

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Speaker 2: but uh i don't know if these are all true

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Speaker 2: i remember when 9-11 happened and people were reading all

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Speaker 2: these psalms of like god will deliver you from your enemies.

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Speaker 1: He will do all these things. I'm like, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm sure that's great in the Bible

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Speaker 2: and stuff, but like in real life, how does that work?

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Speaker 2: So that's really what got us to this place of like, okay,

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Speaker 2: we've got a long way to go to learn. And

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Speaker 2: I think we're just still in the process. And man,

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Speaker 2: I've found crazy amounts of joy in the process.

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Speaker 3: One thing I really loved that I sat with and

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Speaker 3: processed through, because a lot of listeners, I think it's

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Speaker 3: human nature. When we are suffering, it's really hard to

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Speaker 3: let others into that. And especially, I think one thing

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Speaker 3: that made your story, how you presented in the book

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Speaker 3: and then to hear your wife's perspective as well. And

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Speaker 3: what you just painted for us, that picture of your

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Speaker 3: world came completely undone and you two came together. But

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Speaker 3: what was interesting to me, you not only came together,

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Speaker 3: but somehow you were able to both authentically feel together.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's really challenging to do when you're

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Speaker 3: in a situation like that. Like you could easily say,

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Speaker 3: I got to protect my wife. And she could be like,

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Speaker 3: I got to protect my husband. And yet it seemed

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Speaker 3: like in that moment, when you're both sitting there clinging

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Speaker 3: to each other and you had a new job at

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Speaker 3: that point too, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was about to move On from the job I had, actually.

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Speaker 1: So I was a worship leader for.

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Speaker 2: Student ministries at a church called Mariner's Church in California.

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Speaker 2: And I was two weeks away from leaving and pursuing

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Speaker 2: a mainstream music career. And then we find out, and

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Speaker 2: he's got five years to live. And so the church

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Speaker 2: was so beautiful and they held us on. And then

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Speaker 2: I became the worship leader of the church through this

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Speaker 2: really cool story. But yeah, so we were just, we

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Speaker 2: didn't know what was going on at that moment. we

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Speaker 2: were pretty flabbergasted. And then for, I mean, I love

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Speaker 2: that you say that about us giving each other space. Hillary,

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Speaker 2: after a year, we're like, okay, cool. God's going to

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Speaker 2: heal me.

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Speaker 1: Let's go. This is going to be so great. We're ready.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, you just let us know as I'm going into

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Speaker 2: all these appointments, you know, every week. And then a

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Speaker 2: year later, they're like, man, you got, we got to

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Speaker 2: get you into surgery.

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Speaker 1: This is not going well.

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Speaker 2: And I remember Hillary, that's when she had a big

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Speaker 2: wrestling match with God, just a full on wrestling match

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Speaker 2: with God. And I, To be able to sit there,

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Speaker 2: I think I had so many great people around me going, man,

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Speaker 2: let her do this.

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Speaker 1: Like, this is her process. Like, she needs to do this.

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Speaker 1: And this is also a gift.

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Speaker 2: Like, if any of us all of a sudden just

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Speaker 2: take this whole gospel thing, hook, line, and sinker, and

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Speaker 2: never ask questions, I don't know what kind of faith

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Speaker 2: that is, to be real honest. It's just not much

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Speaker 2: of one. And so I think the more that we're

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Speaker 2: able to go, okay, God, I don't see this. I

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Speaker 2: know that it says all this stuff, but we need

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Speaker 2: to have a talk, God. I think those are actually

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Speaker 2: some of the most intimate moments we can have with

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Speaker 2: God that then move us into intimacy. So I love

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Speaker 2: that friends of mine really encourage me to lean in

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Speaker 2: hard to those questions and let my wife lean in

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Speaker 2: hard to those questions, wherever that takes us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I want to say one thing to those who

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Speaker 3: are listening. You address this beautifully in the book. Those

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Speaker 3: who maybe are not 25 years out from a terminal diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: maybe they're in hospice or their loved one is in hospice.

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Speaker 3: And so we don't know why God, why he's given you,

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Speaker 3: which I love your, maybe you can tell actually the

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Speaker 3: X sign. You know, your daily ex. I don't know

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Speaker 3: why he's giving you a daily ex. Praise God for that.

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Speaker 3: But before we get into this really deep conversation about

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Speaker 3: the limitless of God, what would you say to those

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Speaker 3: who are, like you said in your book, fighting for

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Speaker 3: their life?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Number one, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to throw out some Christian crap of

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Speaker 2: some scriptures and go, well, here's what's good.

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Speaker 1: I just I'm sure they're all great.

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Speaker 2: But I just want to stop by saying I'm just

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Speaker 2: so sorry and start saying this is not How.

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Speaker 1: It was intended. And I don't believe God gave you

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Speaker 1: that thing. A lot of times people are like, well,

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Speaker 1: God gave me this.

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Speaker 2: And in my theology, I just don't see God doing that.

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Speaker 3: I just see him walking with. Right.

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Speaker 2: And so what I do is every morning for the

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Speaker 2: past 15 years, I write an X on my wrist.

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Speaker 1: And it goes away every day. Thankfully, I take showers.

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Speaker 1: And at some point, it just became this, I don't

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Speaker 1: know why I'm alive today, but I am now. I

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Speaker 1: have another day. This is all I know, but this

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Speaker 1: is what I got.

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Speaker 2: And I'll talk about it a little bit more, I'm sure,

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Speaker 2: in this podcast, but I quit working for God 15

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Speaker 2: years ago, and I will never work for God again.

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Speaker 1: Working for God sucks.

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Speaker 2: So I quit working for him, and I just said,

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Speaker 2: I'll just join you. Any day you wake me up,

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Speaker 2: I will join you in anything that you're at work doing.

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Speaker 2: And if there's a day that I'm not there anymore, well,

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Speaker 2: then I'm joining you in a different way. But that

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Speaker 2: just became my prayer, and this ex was my reminder

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Speaker 2: of just join him today.

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Speaker 1: You woke up again today. I don't know why. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I get to wake up again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: And for whoever's listening to this and you're going through

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Speaker 2: it or you know deep sorrow, I don't know why

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Speaker 2: you woke up today, but you did. Like he woke

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Speaker 2: you up again somehow. And this doesn't just like wallpaper

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Speaker 2: over the pain of whatever you're walking through, but I

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Speaker 2: think it's the invitation to go, okay, this sucks. This,

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Speaker 2: whatever I'm walking through, totally sucks. And I can grieve

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Speaker 2: this and go, God, this is so hard. Not, but

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Speaker 2: God's good. Because that's like wallpapering over grief. I think

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Speaker 2: the word and is way more important there than the

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Speaker 2: word but. And so life is so hard and God's

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Speaker 2: at work.

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Speaker 1: In all things.

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Speaker 2: And how do we walk and join with him? Even

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Speaker 2: in the midst of my pain and suffering. I have

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Speaker 2: found so much joy, as I've said, in my story

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Speaker 2: and in my journey, just joining him. not working for him,

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Speaker 2: not trying to do cool things for him, not trying

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Speaker 2: to like evangelize to my nurses and all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Like let my life do that. But I just join him.

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Speaker 1: If he opens doors, I get to do that. If

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in agony and pain, I get to do

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Speaker 1: it with him. How crazy is that?

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Speaker 2: Like with God, I'm like, God, this sucks. This is

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Speaker 2: so painful. I mean, with him is way, way better

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Speaker 2: than for him. So that's what I'd encourage you with.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and it comes out really strong in the book,

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Speaker 3: but you kind of brushed over it now just because

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Speaker 3: it's a quick podcast. But it's hardest, I think, to

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Speaker 3: hold on to trusting in God the longer the hardship

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Speaker 3: goes on. And I'm thinking of when you said, you know,

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Speaker 3: you've got to go into surgery and so forth. For

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Speaker 3: listeners in your book, you talk about how your treatment

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Speaker 3: was causing this. these constant surgeries and that had to

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Speaker 3: be exhausting and disillusioning and disappointing and discouraging. And so

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Speaker 3: I think that's when it's really, somebody had told me,

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Speaker 3: They look for glimmers, which I'm thinking of your ex

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Speaker 3: on your hand is. So I'm wondering if those who

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Speaker 3: are in that really long, hard haul, maybe find whatever

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Speaker 3: glimmer for them helps them remain awakened to God's goodness,

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Speaker 3: even in the really hard. And what I'm hearing from

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Speaker 3: you is that it's your connection with him that is

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Speaker 3: bringing the joy and the goodness and the light in

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Speaker 3: the heart. Am I hearing correctly?

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Speaker 1: Totally nailing it.

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Speaker 2: I did a word study on the word hope, a

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Speaker 2: biblical word study on the word hope. And most of

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Speaker 2: my life, I just think when I hope in something,

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Speaker 2: it's always that God will do something for me. It

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Speaker 2: kind of always has that on the backside of it. Like,

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Speaker 2: I hope I get this. I hope he heals me.

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Speaker 2: I hope, which are all great. Man, nothing wrong.

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Speaker 1: But biblical hope, there's a whole section of biblical hope

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Speaker 1: that seems to be Jesus alone, period. Like, it's not

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Speaker 1: what he can do. It's just him. He is hope.

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Speaker 2: And that really started shifting my view of things as

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Speaker 2: I was praying for so many things and seeing him

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Speaker 2: not do, not answer how I wanted.

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Speaker 1: And going, okay, so are you good or are you not?

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Speaker 1: Because at some point we.

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Speaker 2: Got to like reconcile this. Are you good or are

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Speaker 2: you not? Because what I'm looking at right now is

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Speaker 2: not good. And then if you are God and you

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Speaker 2: are good, then how do I join you in the

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Speaker 2: midst of those things? So that's kind of where that

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Speaker 2: has invited me into is just he is my hope.

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Speaker 1: And it's so profoundly changed my life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you talked about it. And I feel like I

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Speaker 3: could really resonate with this about how you had almost,

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Speaker 3: if I'm understanding correctly, been trained not to expect the supernatural.

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Speaker 3: I think it happens a lot. The words we use

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Speaker 3: and you would... Talk about how discouragement can shrink our

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Speaker 3: expectation of God. And do you feel like that was

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Speaker 3: true for you because you were raised in the church

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Speaker 3: and you went through a public trauma, which for a

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Speaker 3: young developing soul, that would be crushing. I know God

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Speaker 3: healed that and he moved through that, moved you through that,

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Speaker 3: but did that.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking specifically about like my parents.

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Speaker 3: Yes. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So do you feel like that carried a wound with

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Speaker 3: you that then later when you encountered this profound, this

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Speaker 3: second major trauma that tampered your trust maybe or your

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Speaker 3: expectancy or your hope? Or did it maybe work in

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Speaker 3: the other way and like, hey, you know what? He

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Speaker 3: carried me through. Or was it a mixture of both?

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Speaker 1: Probably a mixture of both. That's a great question.

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Speaker 2: It would probably land more on I watched what God

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Speaker 2: did with my mom through that. when we would be

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Speaker 2: curious if we'd have bread that week. And I watched

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Speaker 2: him and his faithfulness over and over and over and

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Speaker 2: over with my mom. And then I watched all the

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Speaker 2: people that God put in my way and in my

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Speaker 2: journey that aimed me. And at some point, I guess,

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Speaker 2: through that, I was more like, I don't know, I'm

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Speaker 2: not God. I'm just not you, and I don't get it.

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Speaker 2: But I'm going to be found living as though it's.

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Speaker 1: True that you're at work and all things.

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Speaker 2: And I think the more that I've just leaned into

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Speaker 2: believing that, then I'm actually okay with the supernatural or

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Speaker 2: not the supernatural.

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Speaker 1: Meaning, if he does some miraculous healing, awesome. Awesome.

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Speaker 2: And may it be so, Jesus, let's go. If he doesn't, awesome.

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Speaker 2: Jesus is still on the throne. None of my life

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Speaker 2: or death is going to do anything to tear down

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Speaker 2: the kingdom of God.

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Speaker 1: He's still on the throne doing beautiful things.

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Speaker 2: And the more that Jesus people join him, then this

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Speaker 2: world will be more beautiful, whether I'm here or not.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's been these years of, I call

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Speaker 2: it sobriety, not alcohol and drugs, but just sobriety.

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Speaker 1: And like, well, I'm not that important.

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Speaker 2: As much as I based my entire life around myself

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Speaker 2: and everything that my comforts and all the things.

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Speaker 1: I'm also just not that awesome nor important. God thinks

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Speaker 1: I'm awesome. But like, really, it's just like, okay, great.

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Speaker 2: My life is supposed to be a gift for the

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Speaker 2: world around me. The fruit of the spirit is not

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Speaker 2: for Tim Timmons. That realization blew my mind off that

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Speaker 2: more fruit of the spirit, I want more of God,

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Speaker 2: is not for my benefit. That's for your benefit. That's

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Speaker 2: for the person that cut me off from the road.

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Speaker 2: That's for their benefit that I have more fruit of

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Speaker 2: the spirit.

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Speaker 1: It's just like.

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Speaker 2: A little like gravy that I get to be a

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Speaker 2: part of that fruit of the spirit. But the more

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Speaker 2: that fruit of the Spirit comes out of me through pain,

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Speaker 2: mostly through pain and through suffering, I think that's where

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Speaker 2: it's born. Then the world will become more beautiful. I

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Speaker 2: talked about in the book how I think we do.

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Speaker 2: And love me through this, people, if you're like BibleNerd101.

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Speaker 2: Just kind of love me through this for one second.

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Speaker 2: The Old Testament, the Israelites, they had one mission. Their

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Speaker 2: mission was to be the shalom. Again, BibleNerd, love me

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Speaker 2: through this, people. But they were supposed to be the

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Speaker 2: blessers of the land. Everywhere they went, they were supposed

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Speaker 2: to be like the most... beautiful gift to that land

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Speaker 2: and what did they do they were like no we

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Speaker 2: are the holy people and you all need to be

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Speaker 2: smited everything and the way that i've seen the old

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Speaker 2: testament was like oh god hates these people but he

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Speaker 2: loves this one group and the more that i read

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Speaker 2: the context it's like no they were actually supposed to

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Speaker 2: be the blessers of the world and now jesus people

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Speaker 2: we get to be the actual blessers of the world

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Speaker 2: so if my relationship with jesus is not for me

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Speaker 2: but it's for you it's for my neighbor It's for

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Speaker 2: the person that is downtrodden in my life.

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Speaker 1: Yet we hold on to it like, you know what?

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Speaker 2: We are the holy ones. And then we've just left,

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Speaker 2: I think, the heart of God and we've become like

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Speaker 2: the Israelites. That's a total sidebar. But I think it's

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Speaker 2: really important for my role in this journey with cancer

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Speaker 2: or your role with whatever you've got going on, whoever's listening.

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Speaker 2: What if the bigger problem picture is that through this stuff,

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Speaker 2: I get to actually be a more beautiful gift.

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Speaker 1: To the world.

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Speaker 3: And that brings joy to like self-obsession makes us miserable

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Speaker 3: and anxious, but love truly does free us. I want

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Speaker 3: to circle back to something, two things actually that I

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Speaker 3: think are really important. You talked about the influence your

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Speaker 3: mom had over your life. And now I'm thinking you've

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Speaker 3: got four kids. And so how do you both express,

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Speaker 3: like be authentic with them in a way that allows

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Speaker 3: them to both see your humanity and your hope and

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Speaker 3: your faith. Like, does that feel like attention?

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Speaker 2: I want them to see the most honest version of

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Speaker 2: me and Jesus. And I think they see some pretty

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Speaker 2: real ones when I'm lame to them or I react

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Speaker 2: to something that they do, that they're a kid and

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Speaker 2: I'm the adult and I react strongly or negatively in

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Speaker 2: some way for me to go, dude, I'm so sorry. Like,

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Speaker 2: that actually wasn't awesome, how I handled that. And the

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Speaker 2: way of Jesus would be actually more of a blesser

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Speaker 2: to you, son, than me speaking hard things into you.

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Speaker 1: Like, that's the way of Jesus. And I blew that.

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Speaker 1: And I'm so sorry, man.

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Speaker 2: Like, that they would see that stuff, or they would

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Speaker 2: see us struggle with certain big issues of the day.

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Speaker 1: We talk about this really openly.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 2: how we struggle with a lot of them and we're

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out, okay, so I know what a

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Speaker 2: bunch of these Christians say. I know what these Christians

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Speaker 2: say and the other groups, but what does the kingdom

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Speaker 2: of God look like? So we're trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: how do we do that? And then with our struggles

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Speaker 2: and with my pain, I'm going through a bunch of

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Speaker 2: heart stuff right now and had a hard morning with

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Speaker 2: it today.

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Speaker 3: So sorry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally sucks. It's stupid.

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Speaker 2: And played pickleball with my son today and had to

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Speaker 2: stop because of some stuff with my heart.

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Speaker 1: And I want them to see my wrestle even with

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Speaker 1: God in the midst of that.

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Speaker 2: And also see my contentment with God woke me up

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Speaker 2: again today. So they see this, they see me write

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Speaker 2: this every day. And sometimes I see it on their

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Speaker 2: wrists too. So I just, I don't want to hide

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Speaker 2: things from them. I want them to see the full

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Speaker 2: story and then they can make their own decision and

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Speaker 2: I'm not making their decision for them. But as long

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Speaker 2: as they see a really honest version of this, I

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Speaker 2: think that's.

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Speaker 1: All I can do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I actually think it takes time. trust in god

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Speaker 3: to wrestle right and like maybe maybe to to some

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Speaker 3: of our listeners there might be some fear that they're

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Speaker 3: really wrestling but the one thing i think is really

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Speaker 3: powerful in your story and just in god's economy his

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Speaker 3: heart he holds us right when we're at our depths

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Speaker 3: and when we're wrestling and we're fighting and you you

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Speaker 3: talked about i don't think you actually raised your fist

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Speaker 3: to him but i think you talked to like if

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Speaker 3: you were to raise your fist to him so talk

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Speaker 3: to us about the god who holds us When we

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Speaker 3: maybe are unlovable in the moment.

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Speaker 1: Gosh.

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Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that the beautiful, allegory is the wrong word,

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Speaker 2: the illustration of the parent, the dad, that my son

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Speaker 2: does something crazy or is mad at me or whatever, that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going anywhere. Like say what you need to say.

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Speaker 2: And as much as the earthly dad that hurts my feelings, dude, that's,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going anywhere. Like I'm right here because I'm

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Speaker 2: so for you, son. And to think how much better

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Speaker 2: of a dad is the father that is probably not

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Speaker 2: getting his feelings hurt by me being angry with him

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Speaker 2: or saying I disagree with something or saying, I don't

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Speaker 2: like the way this happens, God. I don't like how

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Speaker 2: this is, whatever. Like, what if he's big enough to

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Speaker 2: handle all of our stuff? I know it sounds like

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Speaker 2: a rhetorical, he sure is. But what if he actually is?

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Speaker 2: That's a different story. What if we lived as though

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Speaker 2: he was big enough to hold our real questions?

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Speaker 1: Like, okay, three days? Is that how it really works, Jesus?

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Speaker 1: Did you really die? I mean, these real questions that

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Speaker 1: we might have with scripture.

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Speaker 2: I just think, what if he's big enough to hold

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Speaker 2: those things? And to walk us through them because I

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Speaker 2: don't see him as a father who's like, no, sorry,

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Speaker 2: you doubted.

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00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:11,619
Speaker 1: You're done.

438
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 2: Right. You don't have enough faith. Man, I think those

439
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 2: scriptures are really taken out of context. I experience such intimacy, actually,

440
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:30,050
Speaker 2: the more vulnerable I am. And I think he knows

441
00:20:30,109 --> 00:20:33,430
Speaker 2: my heart when I'm like, why'd you do this? Yeah.

442
00:20:33,630 --> 00:20:35,230
Speaker 1: He knows that stuff. So why hide it?

443
00:20:35,609 --> 00:20:35,830
Speaker 2: Right.

444
00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:37,470
Speaker 3: And he looks at us through a lens of love

445
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:40,149
Speaker 3: and grace. Like probably when your son or your wife

446
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:42,830
Speaker 3: or your best friend acts a certain way, you're not like, oh,

447
00:20:42,850 --> 00:20:45,230
Speaker 3: how are you so terrible? You're like, huh, what triggered

448
00:20:45,260 --> 00:20:47,199
Speaker 3: you right now? Or what hearing?

449
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 4: When I'm sober, not alcohol, drugs, but when I'm sober

450
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,020
Speaker 4: enough and not so enthralled with myself or caring about

451
00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 4: my kingdom or trying to protect my kingdom, then I

452
00:20:57,260 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 4: can have the sobriety to kind of go, oh, what.

453
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:00,550
Speaker 1: Was that about? I get it.

454
00:21:00,580 --> 00:21:03,780
Speaker 2: You're totally mad, but what's under that? When I'm sober,

455
00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:04,820
Speaker 2: I can totally do that.

456
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:05,780
Speaker 1: When I'm not, man.

457
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,940
Speaker 2: One of my heroes, Dallas Willard, he said in some talk,

458
00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:12,050
Speaker 2: he asked people, when was the last time you got frustrated?

459
00:21:12,109 --> 00:21:13,629
Speaker 2: And he had everybody in the room think about when

460
00:21:13,650 --> 00:21:16,050
Speaker 2: the last time they got frustrated. And then he said, okay,

461
00:21:16,330 --> 00:21:19,950
Speaker 2: so whose kingdom or queendom was threatened? I'm like, uh-oh,

462
00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:23,770
Speaker 2: dang it, mine every time. And yet seek first the

463
00:21:23,790 --> 00:21:26,910
Speaker 2: kingdom of God as if he knows what's best.

464
00:21:27,340 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. When I want to just again, speaking to our listeners,

465
00:21:30,619 --> 00:21:33,130
Speaker 3: some of them are not there yet. They're fighting for

466
00:21:33,170 --> 00:21:35,629
Speaker 3: their kingdom. And so maybe for them to hear you

467
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,820
Speaker 3: are 25 years out. I imagine there was a time.

468
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 3: and numerous times where you were fighting for your kingdom

469
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,810
Speaker 3: and you weren't quite ready to yield to the Father.

470
00:21:46,869 --> 00:21:49,830
Speaker 3: And I wonder if that is when you really discovered

471
00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:51,350
Speaker 3: his goodness. You know, because I hear you talk a

472
00:21:51,390 --> 00:21:53,490
Speaker 3: lot about God is good, he is for me, and

473
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:56,550
Speaker 3: which is all true, but I'm hearing that it feels

474
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:59,150
Speaker 3: true to you now. And I think there's a difference

475
00:21:59,190 --> 00:22:03,169
Speaker 3: between knowing it's true and saying, okay, I know in

476
00:22:03,230 --> 00:22:05,250
Speaker 3: my soul because I've experienced this.

477
00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:08,350
Speaker 1: Yeah, a few things. I'm still in process with that.

478
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:10,870
Speaker 2: People probably want to turn off your podcast after this.

479
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:12,090
Speaker 1: You can erase this if you want.

480
00:22:12,210 --> 00:22:14,909
Speaker 2: But if we're totally honest, and I'd much rather be

481
00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:17,699
Speaker 2: totally honest because God knows that stuff anyways, there are

482
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: times that I'm like 60, 70% sure that Jesus is

483
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,239
Speaker 2: who he says he is. I know, that sounds like,

484
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 2: how could you be saying this? There are times that

485
00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:27,730
Speaker 2: I'm like, man, I'm like 80%.

486
00:22:27,730 --> 00:22:30,389
Speaker 1: This is, this is it. And I think I've been

487
00:22:30,430 --> 00:22:32,210
Speaker 1: afraid to say that my whole life.

488
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 2: Like if you say that somehow you've just left the

489
00:22:35,060 --> 00:22:37,660
Speaker 2: reservation and you're out of the club or something yet,

490
00:22:37,740 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 2: that's what faith is. If anybody's actually completely certain, I don't,

491
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know how that all works.

492
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: Faith is actually like being a certain weed. Something we

493
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,530
Speaker 2: can't be certain about. I'm living into this. And the

494
00:22:49,570 --> 00:22:52,190
Speaker 2: thing that you said, which I loved, do I believe this?

495
00:22:53,330 --> 00:22:55,410
Speaker 2: And I could know it in my mind. But when

496
00:22:55,470 --> 00:22:58,500
Speaker 2: Jesus used the word to believe, which was very rare,

497
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 2: only I think in the book of John was it

498
00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:03,180
Speaker 2: actually used, the word to believe, which is fascinating because

499
00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:05,300
Speaker 2: we use it like candy in the Christian church.

500
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: You know, like, do you believe? Do you believe? And

501
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:07,540
Speaker 1: then you're in.

502
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,649
Speaker 2: Jesus didn't use that, like barely. But when he did,

503
00:23:10,670 --> 00:23:13,390
Speaker 2: it was to be found living as though something is true,

504
00:23:13,690 --> 00:23:16,570
Speaker 2: which I think is fascinating. So when I say that

505
00:23:16,609 --> 00:23:18,170
Speaker 2: I believe, I'm not 100% sure.

506
00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:21,649
Speaker 1: I just, I can't be. It's what faith is.

507
00:23:22,580 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: But I will be found living as though it's true

508
00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: that Jesus is at work in all things.

509
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: And the more that I.

510
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 2: Experience him, I'm like, oh, I think, I think this

511
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,460
Speaker 2: is great. And Jesus, your way either way is the

512
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: most beautiful thing I've ever seen. actually Christians aren't even

513
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,659
Speaker 2: really doing a great job of like living into the

514
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,460
Speaker 2: way of Jesus, but his way is so beautiful and

515
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 2: radical and upside down that if we were to live

516
00:23:43,980 --> 00:23:46,910
Speaker 2: that out just alone, it's like, this is beautiful.

517
00:23:46,930 --> 00:23:47,390
Speaker 3: Right.

518
00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:49,630
Speaker 2: And then to actually like walk with him, even though

519
00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:52,170
Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, I think you're here, Jesus, I'm nervous.

520
00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:55,820
Speaker 1: And then I feel like I've been caught and I'm held. Yeah.

521
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:59,060
Speaker 2: And so I just, I think it's helpful sometimes, or

522
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,419
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are a few people out there that

523
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,580
Speaker 2: are like, man, this guy is a heretic and crazy.

524
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,100
Speaker 2: But I also think there are a bunch of people

525
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:06,459
Speaker 2: listening right now that would be going, thank you for

526
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 2: saying that.

527
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: Because I, I don't know if I'm, I fully like

528
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: I'm all in and I'm all in. I just don't

529
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:13,350
Speaker 1: know how it all works.

530
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 3: Right.

531
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,389
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, Jesus, you're the most beautiful thing

532
00:24:16,430 --> 00:24:16,970
Speaker 1: I've ever seen.

533
00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:17,670
Speaker 2: Yeah.

534
00:24:17,910 --> 00:24:18,130
Speaker 3: Yeah.

535
00:24:18,210 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: And the way your ways and your heart And the

536
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,859
Speaker 2: way that I sense that you've cared for me and

537
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: continue to care for me and walk with me so

538
00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:27,260
Speaker 2: that I can be a blessing to others, if that's

539
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: your invitation, oh my gosh, I will sign up for

540
00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: that every day. So the word believe there, I think

541
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,460
Speaker 2: is a really interesting word that I loved doing a

542
00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: little word study on because it means to be found

543
00:24:37,859 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: living as though something is true.

544
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,590
Speaker 1: So I mean, it's just, I'm going to put my

545
00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:43,909
Speaker 1: one and only life into the hands of Jesus.

546
00:24:44,210 --> 00:24:46,190
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. One thing I hear you say,

547
00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:48,540
Speaker 3: both with the word study on hope And the word

548
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 3: steady on believe for those who are just fighting right

549
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,420
Speaker 3: now to survive, to hold on to hope. That might

550
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 3: be a good practice is to say, I'm going to

551
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,479
Speaker 3: really camp out in, you know, like for me, I'm

552
00:25:00,530 --> 00:25:02,989
Speaker 3: wrestling with God's grace. And so I'm in judges. I've

553
00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:05,970
Speaker 3: been in judges for months. And so maybe that's a

554
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:09,510
Speaker 3: good practice is find what you're really clinging to and

555
00:25:09,609 --> 00:25:12,169
Speaker 3: fortify that a little bit. Just a minute, Tim. I'm sorry.

556
00:25:12,190 --> 00:25:14,810
Speaker 3: I lost my brain. So you're so good.

557
00:25:14,850 --> 00:25:15,469
Speaker 1: I've never done that.

558
00:25:16,770 --> 00:25:17,730
Speaker 3: But I know what I want to get to, and

559
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:19,730
Speaker 3: we're about to close, but this is because I think

560
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:21,230
Speaker 3: you're going to mess with people in a good way.

561
00:25:21,450 --> 00:25:25,379
Speaker 3: You talk about how when God began to awaken, I

562
00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:28,699
Speaker 3: would call it your holy anticipation of his bigness.

563
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:29,500
Speaker 1: Yeah.

564
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,740
Speaker 3: How both, and I think a lot of people have this,

565
00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:35,460
Speaker 3: where they hear a lot of people give them a

566
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,740
Speaker 3: word from God that wasn't really, or use the supernatural for,

567
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 3: they fabricate the.

568
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:44,300
Speaker 2: Whatever.

569
00:25:44,340 --> 00:25:46,139
Speaker 3: So you had to wrestle with that. But then you

570
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 3: had an encounter in that where I don't know what

571
00:25:50,619 --> 00:25:52,380
Speaker 3: I would have done. So I'm thinking about when you're

572
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 3: on a plane and then fast forward and then you're like, okay,

573
00:25:55,540 --> 00:25:59,580
Speaker 3: God is much bigger than I had expected. So can

574
00:25:59,619 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: you share that with the listeners a little?

575
00:26:01,220 --> 00:26:03,340
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll try to bite size that down. So I

576
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,940
Speaker 2: was on a tour with a band called Big Daddy Weave.

577
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,270
Speaker 2: It's just really great, great man. And I had sensed

578
00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:11,830
Speaker 2: that I was supposed to learn stuff about healing.

579
00:26:11,690 --> 00:26:12,450
Speaker 1: And before that.

580
00:26:12,790 --> 00:26:14,770
Speaker 2: And then I found out that at the end of

581
00:26:14,830 --> 00:26:17,669
Speaker 2: every concert, instead of doing an encore, they would just

582
00:26:17,690 --> 00:26:18,710
Speaker 2: have people come up to pray.

583
00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: And so I remember going, okay, that's awesome.

584
00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:23,940
Speaker 2: And so then I got out of nowhere, I got

585
00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: an invitation to go on their tour with them.

586
00:26:25,859 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: And I was like, this is so cool. I love this.

587
00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: So I said, yes, I'm in. Whatever that looks like,

588
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 2: I'm in. So I went on tour with them. And

589
00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: every night we go down and just pray with people.

590
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,959
Speaker 2: And at the first part, one of the main pastors

591
00:26:39,980 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: that's on the tour, he would just kind of say, man,

592
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,619
Speaker 2: I know you've got a lot of like psychology and

593
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: a lot of good things you want to say over.

594
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: People, but what does the spirit want to say over

595
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: these people?

596
00:26:48,859 --> 00:26:51,719
Speaker 2: And what if the spirit has something to say and

597
00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:54,610
Speaker 2: we listen for that instead of just running to how

598
00:26:54,690 --> 00:26:56,609
Speaker 2: I can help them with this moment? He said, you

599
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:58,669
Speaker 2: can help them for one night, but the spirit can

600
00:26:58,710 --> 00:27:00,889
Speaker 2: help them for the rest of their lives. I'm like, okay,

601
00:27:00,950 --> 00:27:02,390
Speaker 2: dang it. I don't know how to pray like that.

602
00:27:02,890 --> 00:27:04,750
Speaker 2: I know how to just pray, like, you know, whatever.

603
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:08,890
Speaker 2: So we went on this tour and, man, some powerful things.

604
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:11,060
Speaker 2: One of the guys in that band, and I tell

605
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: him in the book, but he would tell me every day, like, Tim,

606
00:27:14,020 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: I think you're going to deal with somebody with this issue.

607
00:27:16,660 --> 00:27:20,340
Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, whatever, man, whatever hyper-spiritual guy. And

608
00:27:20,580 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: sure enough, that night, first person I walk up would

609
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,570
Speaker 2: be about suicide or about divorce or about daddy issues.

610
00:27:26,609 --> 00:27:27,689
Speaker 1: I mean, it was crazy.

611
00:27:27,710 --> 00:27:29,330
Speaker 2: And he would tell me what the father would want

612
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:30,950
Speaker 2: to say to these people. And I kind of come

613
00:27:30,990 --> 00:27:33,389
Speaker 2: from a background that's like, no, those people are whack.

614
00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:36,060
Speaker 2: They're just a little bit weird. The intercessory prayer people

615
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,479
Speaker 2: is like, pull that back a little bit because who

616
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 2: knows how much patchouli oil they're drinking.

617
00:27:40,580 --> 00:27:41,260
Speaker 1: You know, that kind of thing.

618
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: And yet I, in that season, was not allowed to

619
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,659
Speaker 2: judge that stuff. One of the things I said to

620
00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:48,780
Speaker 2: God was like, I'm not going to go into this

621
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,180
Speaker 2: with my old view.

622
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: Teach me. Like, show me some bigger view of you

623
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: than I had before. Because.

624
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,100
Speaker 2: What's good about going through life with the same view

625
00:27:57,140 --> 00:27:58,100
Speaker 2: I've had of you the whole time?

626
00:27:58,140 --> 00:27:59,700
Speaker 1: I just want to see a bigger, more beautiful view

627
00:27:59,720 --> 00:27:59,950
Speaker 1: of you.

628
00:28:00,109 --> 00:28:04,469
Speaker 2: So sure enough, that night when Jay was, he was

629
00:28:04,550 --> 00:28:07,850
Speaker 2: told by God somehow to go walk over to this fence.

630
00:28:07,890 --> 00:28:09,369
Speaker 2: And so he goes and walks over this fence and

631
00:28:09,410 --> 00:28:11,310
Speaker 2: that he would meet a girl named Natalie. And he's

632
00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:13,630
Speaker 2: supposed to tell Natalie this. And so he's like, all right.

633
00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:15,949
Speaker 1: So he walks over and sure enough, first girl that

634
00:28:15,970 --> 00:28:18,270
Speaker 1: walks up, he says, is your name Natalie? And she's like, yes.

635
00:28:18,490 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: And it was just so profound to see, okay, God

636
00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:22,780
Speaker 2: is speaking through people.

637
00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how it all works.

638
00:28:24,140 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: I still don't know how it all works, but he's

639
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,540
Speaker 2: speaking through people for the gift of other people, like

640
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,109
Speaker 2: for the actual, to be a blesser for other people,

641
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:34,830
Speaker 2: not for the gift of just being awesome or super

642
00:28:34,869 --> 00:28:36,730
Speaker 2: hyper religious, or I can speak in tongues just.

643
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:39,729
Speaker 1: Because I can. But it's a gift. It's like supposed

644
00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:42,110
Speaker 1: to be that. So I was on an airplane during

645
00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:44,490
Speaker 1: that tour. And there was a guy that came in.

646
00:28:44,910 --> 00:28:45,710
Speaker 1: He had cancer.

647
00:28:45,850 --> 00:28:47,710
Speaker 2: And he and his wife, he was young.

648
00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:48,670
Speaker 1: He was in his 20s.

649
00:28:48,690 --> 00:28:50,370
Speaker 2: And he was strolled in. His eyes were in the

650
00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:52,250
Speaker 2: back of his head. And he came into first class.

651
00:28:52,290 --> 00:28:54,330
Speaker 2: And I was a few seats back. Some random dude

652
00:28:54,430 --> 00:28:56,510
Speaker 2: and I started talking. And then he was a Jesus

653
00:28:56,530 --> 00:28:59,190
Speaker 2: follower as well. And so we were like, oh, gosh,

654
00:28:59,210 --> 00:29:01,270
Speaker 2: maybe we should pray for this guy. But we're like,

655
00:29:01,490 --> 00:29:06,270
Speaker 2: dear God, would you just bless? You know, whatever we prayed. And.

656
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,310
Speaker 1: We're up in the air and they said, is there

657
00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:09,690
Speaker 1: a nurse?

658
00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:13,330
Speaker 2: Is there a doctor? Is there anybody, an EMT? And

659
00:29:13,910 --> 00:29:16,530
Speaker 2: a few minutes later, this guy dies on the plane.

660
00:29:16,730 --> 00:29:17,830
Speaker 2: And we're sitting there going.

661
00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,590
Speaker 1: What do we do? Like, should we have gone up

662
00:29:20,610 --> 00:29:22,650
Speaker 1: there and prayed for him? What should we have done?

663
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:24,230
Speaker 1: And I still don't know the answer to that.

664
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:27,030
Speaker 2: But it was this invitation for me to be more

665
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:29,410
Speaker 2: curious about the movement of God. And I didn't want

666
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: to be a bother to the wife as she was,

667
00:29:31,630 --> 00:29:34,820
Speaker 2: you know, they're like frantically trying to resuscitate this guy.

668
00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:37,190
Speaker 2: I still don't know how to do that. But then

669
00:29:37,210 --> 00:29:39,970
Speaker 2: another week went by. I met another lady on an airplane.

670
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: total intercessory lady, intercessory prayer lady. I mean, patchouli more

671
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,580
Speaker 2: than the whole plane smelled it. And yet she started

672
00:29:47,980 --> 00:29:51,450
Speaker 2: dealing in with some of my past experiences. Like she

673
00:29:51,470 --> 00:29:53,710
Speaker 2: was telling me things about my dad and about things.

674
00:29:53,730 --> 00:29:56,550
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you shouldn't know these things. And she

675
00:29:56,570 --> 00:29:58,670
Speaker 2: started praying out loud in the middle of the airplane.

676
00:29:58,690 --> 00:30:01,150
Speaker 2: I'm like, honey, would you keep it down a little bit?

677
00:30:01,370 --> 00:30:03,770
Speaker 1: But at some point I was like, all right, she's

678
00:30:03,790 --> 00:30:05,650
Speaker 1: a little weird, but Jesus, I don't know. What do

679
00:30:05,730 --> 00:30:08,740
Speaker 1: I know? Like, what if this is a beautiful thing?

680
00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: So we ended up meeting up with her and her

681
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: husband later and they shared some really profound things with me. So,

682
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,420
Speaker 2: you know, things that I look on my theology and

683
00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: I go, I don't know how that fits, but that

684
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:22,450
Speaker 2: was really beautiful. And, God, you're so much bigger than

685
00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:25,150
Speaker 2: my theology. And what's so interesting is the demons have

686
00:30:25,210 --> 00:30:27,460
Speaker 2: way better theology than you and I will ever have.

687
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:28,580
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.

688
00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:30,459
Speaker 2: They've got the best theology there is.

689
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,140
Speaker 3: Explain that because some might misunderstand that. So what do

690
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 3: you mean?

691
00:30:34,660 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: Think about it. The demons actually see it all. Theologies

692
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: are understanding of God.

693
00:30:40,510 --> 00:30:44,110
Speaker 2: They have a pretty great understanding of God and all

694
00:30:44,150 --> 00:30:47,410
Speaker 2: things spiritual and the realms and all that stuff, which

695
00:30:47,550 --> 00:30:48,210
Speaker 2: I do not.

696
00:30:48,410 --> 00:30:49,050
Speaker 1: I think I do.

697
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:51,230
Speaker 2: I like try to read scripture and try to understand,

698
00:30:51,250 --> 00:30:53,690
Speaker 2: but they've got the best theology there is, but they're

699
00:30:53,710 --> 00:30:57,610
Speaker 2: not living into it. And it also is just a

700
00:30:57,710 --> 00:31:01,310
Speaker 2: reminder that the best theology actually doesn't make us any

701
00:31:01,350 --> 00:31:02,450
Speaker 2: more beautiful like Jesus.

702
00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:04,670
Speaker 1: So I think one of my.

703
00:31:04,610 --> 00:31:09,350
Speaker 2: Friends said, he said, bad theology.

704
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:14,070
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm going to butcher this. It doesn't even matter.

705
00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:15,370
Speaker 1: I'm going to butcher it.

706
00:31:15,390 --> 00:31:17,030
Speaker 3: Well, I want to tag on to what you said.

707
00:31:17,170 --> 00:31:20,190
Speaker 3: So it's not theology. What I'm hearing in your story,

708
00:31:20,270 --> 00:31:23,870
Speaker 3: it is encountering God personally in the midst of our

709
00:31:24,150 --> 00:31:25,870
Speaker 3: wrestling and just everyday life.

710
00:31:26,350 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: That being the point, that the theology that we have,

711
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,660
Speaker 2: how it all goes, how God works, we don't know.

712
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,860
Speaker 2: And the second we say we do know how it works,

713
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,500
Speaker 2: I think that's a little arrogant. But I think for

714
00:31:37,580 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: us to go, okay, all I know is they have

715
00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:41,290
Speaker 2: the best theology, but what I'm going to be found

716
00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:43,750
Speaker 2: doing is I'm going to be found living, hopefully, the

717
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:46,070
Speaker 2: heart of God. In my pain, in my sorrow, in

718
00:31:46,090 --> 00:31:48,330
Speaker 2: my joy, in my fun, you're here, and I'm going

719
00:31:48,350 --> 00:31:50,150
Speaker 2: to join you in these places. And as I write

720
00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:51,510
Speaker 2: this on my wrist every day, one of the main

721
00:31:51,550 --> 00:31:54,190
Speaker 2: practices that we do is we breathe in Jesus.

722
00:31:54,210 --> 00:31:59,860
Speaker 1: I breathe out, you have my attention. Okay. All day long. Jesus,

723
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: you have my attention. Somebody cuts you off in the

724
00:32:03,460 --> 00:32:03,900
Speaker 1: middle of the road.

725
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,420
Speaker 3: Jesus. Jesus.

726
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: You have my attention.

727
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,340
Speaker 3: I love that. That's so simple and easy. Yeah. Yeah.

728
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: Well, and that's what the demons are not doing. That's

729
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,540
Speaker 1: my point. The demons are not.

730
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,140
Speaker 2: Saying, Jesus, you have my attention. They have the great theology,

731
00:32:18,350 --> 00:32:20,470
Speaker 2: but they're actually not living as though it's true and

732
00:32:20,550 --> 00:32:24,190
Speaker 2: leaning into joining Jesus into the goodness of the world.

733
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:25,490
Speaker 1: So that's our mission.

734
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:28,010
Speaker 2: And that's what I get excited with this book is

735
00:32:28,030 --> 00:32:31,650
Speaker 2: to invite us into how we more intentionally wake up.

736
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:32,590
Speaker 1: Every single morning.

737
00:32:32,610 --> 00:32:35,570
Speaker 3: Amen. Well, and I love that you're not, forcing a,

738
00:32:36,420 --> 00:32:38,820
Speaker 3: like a faith that like, okay, this is going to happen.

739
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,790
Speaker 3: This is going to, you're like, I'm just here. I'm just,

740
00:32:40,980 --> 00:32:43,010
Speaker 3: I'm just showing up. And I think, so for those

741
00:32:43,050 --> 00:32:45,010
Speaker 3: who are listening, like, I don't, I can't say, God,

742
00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:47,230
Speaker 3: you are good. I can't say, God, this is good

743
00:32:47,290 --> 00:32:50,250
Speaker 3: or whatever, but they can say, I'm here. You've got

744
00:32:50,270 --> 00:32:52,540
Speaker 3: my attention. And what, what I love about that also,

745
00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: as I'm listening to you, just all of your encounters,

746
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,650
Speaker 3: you cultivated a curiosity, right? And I think that can

747
00:33:00,830 --> 00:33:04,930
Speaker 3: really open us up and shift our, give us the

748
00:33:05,010 --> 00:33:07,450
Speaker 3: hope that you were wanting to cling to. And so,

749
00:33:08,370 --> 00:33:09,670
Speaker 3: and I also love what you said, and I'm going

750
00:33:09,690 --> 00:33:12,090
Speaker 3: to repeat it here so that listeners, I'm going to

751
00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:17,390
Speaker 3: invite listeners to pray this themselves for a bigger, more

752
00:33:17,510 --> 00:33:21,590
Speaker 3: beautiful view of God. What if we all just prayed

753
00:33:21,630 --> 00:33:23,590
Speaker 3: that those two things that you said, I think if

754
00:33:23,630 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: they get nothing else, From my perspective, nothing else from

755
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,860
Speaker 3: this episode, I think that could profoundly change our families,

756
00:33:29,980 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 3: our world, our perspective, our day. As we close, I

757
00:33:33,340 --> 00:33:36,940
Speaker 3: have a question. If someone listening today could take just

758
00:33:37,340 --> 00:33:41,670
Speaker 3: one truth from everything you've learned through your journey, what

759
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:42,630
Speaker 3: would you want them to remember?

760
00:33:42,650 --> 00:33:44,870
Speaker 1: That's like, which kid is your favorite kid?

761
00:33:47,650 --> 00:33:50,470
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the one thing that has been so

762
00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:54,250
Speaker 2: revolutionary for me has been, I just join them. that

763
00:33:54,290 --> 00:33:56,390
Speaker 2: every morning I wake up, when I write this on

764
00:33:56,430 --> 00:33:58,660
Speaker 2: my wrist, my prayer is, Jesus, you woke me up

765
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:00,780
Speaker 2: again today, whether you have cancer or not.

766
00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:03,550
Speaker 1: Jesus, you woke me up again today. I just want

767
00:34:03,570 --> 00:34:04,370
Speaker 1: to join you today.

768
00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:07,140
Speaker 3: There's so much in your book that I wish we

769
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: had like five hours because I've read it and listened

770
00:34:10,660 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 3: to it multiple times because it really is. And just

771
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,060
Speaker 3: that phrase, waking up again. So to our listeners, the

772
00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:19,970
Speaker 3: title again is Waking Up Again, A Journey of Grief

773
00:34:20,190 --> 00:34:22,210
Speaker 3: and Gratitude. And here's a little more about the book.

774
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:26,410
Speaker 3: When an incurable cancer diagnosis upended Tim Timmons' plans at

775
00:34:26,469 --> 00:34:29,850
Speaker 3: age 25, he and his wife Hillary began asking deeper

776
00:34:29,930 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: questions about faith, suffering, and what it truly means to

777
00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: trust God. Waking Up Again isn't simply a memoir about

778
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: surviving hardship. It's an invitation to experience Jesus' presence in

779
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 3: both life's deepest grief and its ordinary moments. Through honest stories,

780
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:55,980
Speaker 3: practical reflection, humor, and biblical encouragement, Tim and Without diminishing either,

781
00:34:56,060 --> 00:34:59,940
Speaker 3: rather than offering easy answers, they invite readers to develop

782
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,350
Speaker 3: a larger view of God, embrace each day as a gift,

783
00:35:03,489 --> 00:35:07,890
Speaker 3: and discover lasting hope, even when the future feels uncertain.

784
00:35:07,989 --> 00:35:10,710
Speaker 3: It's a thoughtful resource for anyone longing to move beyond

785
00:35:10,750 --> 00:35:16,010
Speaker 3: merely enduring difficult seasons toward living with greater joy, purpose,

786
00:35:16,489 --> 00:35:21,739
Speaker 3: and confidence in Christ. Tim, this has been a wonderful conversation.

787
00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:26,009
Speaker 3: It has. profoundly grateful for you and and I hope

788
00:35:26,030 --> 00:35:29,170
Speaker 3: this doesn't sound harsh but I think it's actually beautiful

789
00:35:29,410 --> 00:35:31,379
Speaker 3: and profound I know I'm using that word a lot

790
00:35:31,510 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: in this discussion but that you still have cancer you're

791
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,259
Speaker 3: still in the uncertainty and yet you're still waking up

792
00:35:38,460 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 3: again choosing life I think we as a humanity we

793
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,660
Speaker 3: don't know how to deal with ambiguity uncertainty and discomfort

794
00:35:46,820 --> 00:35:49,620
Speaker 3: and so I Thank you for showing us what it

795
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,100
Speaker 3: looks like to live in that hard and holy and

796
00:35:53,180 --> 00:35:54,220
Speaker 3: beautiful place.

797
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,819
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer. That's really sweet. Thank you.

798
00:35:58,930 --> 00:36:01,370
Speaker 3: And to our listeners, here's what I hope you took away.

799
00:36:01,570 --> 00:36:05,529
Speaker 3: I hope that this was an invitation to grow your

800
00:36:05,590 --> 00:36:08,610
Speaker 3: view of God's character and invite him into that. I

801
00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:11,730
Speaker 3: hope you receive this as an invitation to pray bold prayers.

802
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 3: even after disappointment, to keep showing up. And like Tim said, Jesus,

803
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,569
Speaker 3: you've got my attention. And I hope this is an

804
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:23,089
Speaker 3: invitation for you to wrestle with. If maybe you don't

805
00:36:23,110 --> 00:36:25,350
Speaker 3: know where it fits, the grief and the hope and

806
00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:29,190
Speaker 3: the expectancy and the reality, to wrestle with that and

807
00:36:29,310 --> 00:36:33,750
Speaker 3: learn to hold those realities together. And lastly, I hope

808
00:36:33,969 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 3: that you're leaving this conversation with just maybe a little

809
00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:41,930
Speaker 3: more trust in god or even just like hey some

810
00:36:41,969 --> 00:36:45,330
Speaker 3: curiosity i want to get to know this jesus that

811
00:36:45,570 --> 00:36:48,930
Speaker 3: awakened him to life when he thought all that he

812
00:36:48,989 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 3: had ahead of him was death so thank you so

813
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 3: very much