1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: am joined today by doctor Daniel Hawk. He is a 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Ashland Theological Seminary, 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: and he's the author of a new book called Undoing 13 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: Manifest Destiny, Settler America, Christian Colonists, and the Pursuit of Justice. 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: And so today we're going to be talking about a 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: lot of the concepts from the book and hopefully introducing 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: you to some different ways of thinking about what it 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: looks like to be a Christian in America, but maybe 18 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: also a Christian anywhere else. So, uh, Dan, welcome to 19 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: the program. It was really great to be here. I'm 20 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:05,639 Speaker 1: glad we can make this happen. 21 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for your interest in the book. 22 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 23 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I mentioned, I'd had a couple of other 24 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: sets of authors on on these very similar topics I think, 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, not necessarily straight on similar, but the guys 26 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: who wrote Reading the Bible from Turtle Island, and then 27 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: Terry Wildman on who's doing some of the Native American 28 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: translations the New Testament, and so this is becoming. 29 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 3: A really interesting area. 30 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, I was drawn to this work and I'm 31 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: finding these these uh, these new topic areas really interesting. 32 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: I guess I'm my first question for you would be 33 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: what what drew you into this book? You're kind of 34 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: a you're an Old Testament guy. What what drew you 35 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: into this, uh, this conversation. 36 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's been a long journey, and uh it 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: started earlier in my career. I did some work in 38 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: the Book of Joshua that was well received, and I 39 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 2: had some colleagues challenged me not to just keep it 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: within the Ivory Tower, so to speak, but to think 41 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: about how my work on Joshua might impact Christian mission 42 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: and related topics. So I took that to heart and 43 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: I thought, well, you know, what would Joshua have to 44 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: say to the United States, And immediately this kind of 45 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: parallel conquest narrative shows up. I mean, so Joshua's Israel's 46 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: conquest narrative. Joshua tells how and why Israel got the land, 47 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 2: took the land, and took it away from the indigenous 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: inhabitants under the command of God and with God's help 49 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: and the help of the Holy Spirit, and our national 50 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: mythology tells very much the same kind his story in 51 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: one way or another. We were empowered by and called 52 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: by God to establish a new nation, and we did 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: that by dispossessing the people who were already here. And 54 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: so that got me going, and that got me into 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: reading a lot of American history on indigenous settler relationships, 56 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: and it just kind of boy, the more I read, 57 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: the more I thought, Man, this is this is really 58 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: hard stuff, and we're not We're not. And I don't 59 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 2: know that we've ever talked about it, either as Christians 60 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: or as a nation. I mean, to the extent that 61 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: it really deserves to be talked about. So long story short, 62 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: I started I started speaking on this as kind of 63 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: an advocation and went to some conferences met some folks, 64 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: met indigenous scholars, and became developed some good and lasting frendship. 65 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: It's like with Terry Wildman. I'm working with him right now. 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: He invited me into talk on the Translation Council. We're 67 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: working on genesistic genesis through Second Kings right now. So 68 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: a lot of funastic. So I wrote a book about 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: fifteen years ago called Joshua three D. And I just 70 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: started writing on this topic. And I was at IVP 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: a couple of couple of summers ago and just noticed 72 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: that they were publishing a lot of works along this line. 73 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: So I pitched the book and they said yes, And 74 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 2: so I wrote it. 75 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: For people who may not be as aware of the 76 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: Joshua narrative. Why don't you give a little bit of 77 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: a thumbnail sketch. I don't expect you to give the whole, 78 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, the whole message of your book, but help 79 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: people understand and frame sort of how you're approaching this 80 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 1: work through the lens of what of your work on Joshua. 81 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so one of the things I would say 82 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: about the Book of Joshua is it's a book that 83 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: establishes Israelite identity, and it there's there's a real there's 84 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: there's a real fusion of history and identity. Every iteration, 85 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: every expression of our past as a nation, whether ancient 86 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: or modern, is an active identity formation. Narratives tell us 87 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: who we are and what distinguishes us from every other nation, 88 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. So in Joshua, Joshua 89 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: is in a sense the culmination of the promise that 90 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 2: God makes to Abram in Genesis chapter twelve. You know, 91 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: you leave your your family and your kindred go to 92 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: the place that I will show you. And so Israel 93 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: enters the land called by God to do so, and 94 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: in obedience. So it enters the land in obedience to 95 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: a divine, divine call and in fulfillment and from God's perspective, 96 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: in fulfillment to promises. And they go in there, and 97 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: God says, I'll do the fighting for you, and I 98 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 2: will defeat the indigenous peoples. And your job is basically 99 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: to settle and finish that operation. Settle and make sure 100 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: that they don't contaminate you in any way or lead 101 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: you away from God. And so there's it's a narrative 102 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: that just talks about how God basically made Israel an 103 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: invincible force that expelled all the peoples of the land, 104 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: and then Israel settled it and they mark their settlement 105 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: with monuments here and there. So when you put that 106 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 2: against the way we talk about as Americans, this is 107 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: our story. We are an exceptional nation. We are a 108 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: nation that has been chosen by God or by virtue 109 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: of just our unique sensibility and kind of the progress 110 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: of civilization. We came here under a transcendent impulse. I 111 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: should say the first English colonists came here under an 112 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: impulse that was greater than they were themselves. And so 113 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: for those who take a Christian view of that, God 114 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: enabled the earliest English settlers to overcome the peoples of 115 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: the land and just push steadily westward. And so there's 116 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: the same pattern in a sense, wiping out and dispossessing 117 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: the indigenous people. And then here we look at all 118 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: the monuments we put up to ourselves and all the 119 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: ways that we remember, because that's what monuments are. They're 120 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: they're part of the catechetical structure that teaches us about 121 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: who we are as a nation. Yeah. 122 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: Interesting the parallels, and I think, just to make sure 123 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: I'm understanding and clarifying as we read the biblical narrative, 124 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: we're seeing this and this is obviously in you know, 125 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: authoritative scripture, and so we're understanding this is something that's 126 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: been passed down to us as a as a faithful 127 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: rendering of the story of God in Israel versus Maybe 128 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: the difference between the story that we tell about America 129 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: it's founding. And we do have these other Old Testament 130 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: analogs as well along the way where you could sort 131 00:08:54,760 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: of see parallels between what is happening with the Mayoramerica 132 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: tying God into the fate of our nation in ways 133 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: that would seem to underwrite basically whatever we want to 134 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: do versus God saying no, you know, you've done this, 135 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that I, you know, I find 136 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: it legitimate. I mean I look at some of those 137 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: like even Babylon, you know, Nebukanezer is called God's servant, 138 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: and yet the way that Babylon is going to treat 139 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: the Israelites is going to bring punishment upon Babylon. And 140 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: so there's there's this real intricate line I think that 141 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: that we draw between Maybe this is my question for you. 142 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: I guess when I read the Old Testament It's like, yes, 143 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: God's moving the nations about, right, but it doesn't necessarily 144 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: mean that he's authorizing everything that they're doing. It simply 145 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: means that he needs this displaced and this moved in. 146 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 1: But the way that that's done can be deeply problematic 147 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: and outside of what God would really want to have 148 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: had happen. Am I am I close on that. 149 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm resonating with a lot of what you said there. 150 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: I would put it this way, The Book of Joshua 151 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: is not a template. It is it is a one time. 152 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 2: It is a remembrance of the past in which God, 153 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: through God's power and in faithfulness to God's promises, established 154 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: the nation of Israel in a homeland where they could 155 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: bear witness to this, this God who had delivered them 156 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: from from bondage in Egypt and had brought them into 157 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: a good in verdant land. So when we read texts 158 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 2: like this as a as a template, okay, so that means, okay, 159 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: this is our pattern, so so that let's do it, 160 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: it is I think profound. It is a profound misunderstanding 161 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: gotcha of both understanding what this scripture does and how 162 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: it is to shape Christian life and faith. 163 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 3: That's helpful. 164 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: So let me now pivot because I think this will 165 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: connect in the book you talk about wanting to I 166 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: don't think these are your words, but unwinding the settler 167 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: narrative sort of challenge the settler narrative, And so can 168 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what that means. I 169 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: assume it has something to do with this sort of templating, 170 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: pulling the template over and saying we're going to do this. 171 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: But what does that look like now for us to 172 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: unwind that settler narrative? 173 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: Well, that's that's the central question. Yeah, So beginning of 174 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: Jamestown and Plymouth, Boston, New England, the Christian settlers who 175 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: came first to these shores came with with the belief 176 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: that that God had had brought them to this place. 177 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 2: And simply speaking, they developed a whole set of of 178 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 2: precedents and patterns and perspectives in relationship to the people 179 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: who were already here. And they they had in mind, 180 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: for various reasons, this belief that God has given us 181 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 2: this land and we need to go in and occupy it. 182 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: And as they did, they did some pretty atrocious and 183 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: I would say sinful things. So there's there's this bit 184 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: of sin that's at the root of our story as 185 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: as a Christian people in this nation and as as 186 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: a nation itself. There there is a script I mean, 187 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: and this is from the very earliest within in in 188 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: the case of Plymouth, within two years of the founding 189 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: of Plymouth, there are some atrocities, preemptive strikes, treachery on 190 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: the part of these English settlers who bore the name 191 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: of Christ, but found a way to justify what they did. 192 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: And as this script in a sense developed and replicated 193 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: and revised and expanded as this nation expanded westward, there 194 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: were just some really atrocious things that we did. And 195 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: what we did as well was that we justified that 196 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 2: with a myth of innocence. So everything that we did 197 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: in a way had a had an explanation that we 198 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 2: could reconcile with our values or with our Christian beliefs. 199 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: I'm saying ours. I'm talking about out the white settlers, 200 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: who colonists, who came here. So this colonial enterprise UH 201 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: established structures social, economic, political structures for the benefit which 202 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:23,239 Speaker 2: which the colonists constructed for their benefit, and those structures 203 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: have never been really addressed. They were built on kind 204 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: of unequal relationships with with the peoples of the land 205 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 2: and other people so that we could gain dominion as 206 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: white Christians. Uh. But the the key point here is 207 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: that they've never really been challenged. And the way to 208 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: challenge that's those structures and to begin the process of healing. 209 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: We're not doing this just to be angry and bash, 210 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: you know, break shame, you know, shame and blame this 211 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 2: if if you don't knowledge your sin, we all know 212 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: what it does. Sin just doesn't fade away. If we 213 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: don't acknowledge it and confess it and begin to turn 214 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: in a different way, it's just going to fester. And 215 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: so what this nation has done is created a myth 216 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: of innocence that in a sense explains the structures and 217 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: inequities that we have in those structures, so that to 218 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: challenge the structure, you've got to challenge the narrative that 219 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 2: justifies it first. And when you do that, then you 220 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: take the you take the you know, the foundation away 221 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: from kind of saying, well, you know, everything we did 222 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: was good, and you begin to bring to the surface 223 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: things that as as I hear people tell me often 224 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: when I go to speak, I never heard that before 225 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: I had no idea. Well, there's a good reason we didn't. 226 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: We wanted to keep it covered because that's important. So 227 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: the last piece, I would say this, this, this bears 228 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: connection into the present day. Those structures are still here, 229 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: and so I would propose that much of the violence 230 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: that wrecks our nation, the kind of the love of guns, 231 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: the racial strife, all of that is rooted in paradigms 232 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 2: and a script that was established during the earliest colonial 233 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: times and has gone all the way. It's still here, 234 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: and it damages It damages us. It damages us as 235 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: a nation. It continues to not address justice that has 236 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: long been denied to our our indigenous sisters and brothers. 237 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: And it's I believe the love of Christ compels us 238 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: and and our our identity as ministers of reconciliation compels 239 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: us to address this. It's time, It's it's way past time. 240 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: I think what struck me when I was reading your book, 241 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: and then also just some of the other things that 242 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: I've looked at, is the what I'll call the construction 243 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: of a civil religion. I think that the co opting, 244 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,719 Speaker 1: for instance, of the Exodus narrative, the framing of the 245 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: British as the tyrants and the colonists as the escaping Israelites. 246 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: Is a perversion of that narrative because the way it 247 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: was used was, yes, we need political liberations so we 248 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: can live how we'd like to. But in the Old Testament, 249 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: that's not what it is. It's a it's a liberation 250 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: has political you know, there is a political change of 251 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: the orders, but that change of order doesn't mean that 252 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: we get to live how we want to. It means 253 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 1: that we live under the rule of God, not as 254 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: our sovereign, and that these are the laws that Israel 255 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: was to follow. In those kind of things, I think 256 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: that aspect of the narrative is conveniently left out. And 257 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: so as I was reading your book, I said, you know, 258 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of the parallels that you're highlighting 259 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: and saying they these are given enough religious language to 260 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 1: justify what's happening, but not so much that it critiques 261 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: what's happening. It always stays right there on the line 262 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: of this legitimates what I'm doing, But I don't want 263 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: the Bible to speak against what I'm doing. I just 264 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: wanted to say it's okay, what I'm doing is that 265 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: a fair assessment, just sort of broad strokes of the 266 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: things you found. 267 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that that puts it puts 268 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: it well. I think part of the genius of our 269 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: our founding fathers on this particular issue is that they 270 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: they realize and held very tightly to this idea that 271 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 2: religion is absolutely central for a healthy society. But they 272 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 2: also were aware, and many of them have had come 273 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: out of places where religion had become toxic. Christianity had 274 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 2: become toxic, so they knew what could happen. So what 275 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 2: they did, quite intentionally was to develop this idea that 276 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 2: many call a civic religion. And they did that as 277 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: other nationalizing groups were doing at the time, to give 278 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: a sense of transcendence that could unite a lot of 279 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 2: thirteen squabbling, bickering states into one nation, a United States. 280 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 2: And so they needed religion to do that, and so 281 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 2: they they transferred a lot of the Christian symbols, So 282 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: you know, the Pilgrims, the Puritans err and into the 283 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: wilderness became this kind of national mission. Salvation from sin 284 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 2: became salvation from tyranny, and so on and so forth, 285 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: and so Anthony D. Smith, who's written a lot on this, 286 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: I think really helpfully, especially a book called Chosen Peoples 287 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: talks about how these nationalizing movements like the United States 288 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: basically concocted and alternative religion. So and and and if 289 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: you think about it, I mean, our our our kind 290 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: of national civil religion acts just like a religion. We 291 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: have holy days, we have we have our own scriptures 292 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,239 Speaker 2: in the constitution, so on and so forth. We use 293 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: a lot of the language of the sacred when we 294 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: talk about our nations. So anyway, all to say, yes 295 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: and amen, I think I think you really you really 296 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: hit it. 297 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: A little. 298 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 2: Religion. 299 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, it just strikes me that there's so much of 300 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: that across what you've written, And so I wanted to 301 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: bring it out for folks as you challenge this setlar narrative, 302 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: What do you think comes of it? You talked about 303 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: some of the structures. Maybe it'd be good to give 304 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: a couple of examples of those structures. When I was 305 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: when I when you were just saying in earlier, what 306 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: my mind went to was a particularly enduring or durable 307 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: set of systemic sin and so almost like if if 308 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: we made it a rule that none of us could 309 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: wear clothes outdoors. That's going to have a durable effect, 310 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: an ongoing effect on our livelihoods no matter how you 311 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: slice it right right, And so when we say it 312 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: like that, that maybe that gives people enough of a 313 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: context to say, oh, okay, I could see how that 314 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: would work. 315 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 3: You know. 316 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 1: The last place I want to be put is you know, 317 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: out in a tent somewhere and think that somebody's going 318 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: to you know that. 319 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: I'm going to survive, Promise you I won't. 320 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: And so there are different structures that we can envision 321 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: in our own minds having difficulty living within. Is that 322 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: the sort of idea that you're trying to convey with that, 323 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: that that structural problem the structures that were put in 324 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: place in the colonial times that are now still causing problems. 325 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, Colonialism is all colonists set up a structure where 326 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: where they have dominion and everybody else has to kind 327 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: of live under their their power and their their leadership 328 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 2: and their tied to the land. So one of the 329 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: really earliest expressions of this is that the Puritans when 330 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: they came here, uh, they they really strongly gravitated towards 331 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: the creation mandate, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. 332 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: Read Genesis to Adam till's the ground. So when they 333 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: looked around at this, this pagan landscape, this wild place, 334 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: this wilderness. Uh. And they looked at some of the 335 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: customs of the people which they were not christ They 336 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: were not Christian, right, and they just viewed as satanic. 337 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: And the fact that that indigenous people of the area 338 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 2: didn't own property, I mean they they they moved in 339 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 2: ways that sustained them based on the season where they were, 340 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: so they would plant crops and harvest and in the 341 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: fall then would go on winter hunts and so on 342 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: and so forth. And when the Pilgrims looked at this, 343 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: they said, boy, this is this is exactly what we 344 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 2: were sent to rectify. These people are not fulfilling the 345 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 2: basic mandate that God gave to all human beings on creation. 346 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: And from the English perspective this the colonial perspective meant, okay, uh. 347 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: The way you do this and for faithfully fulfill this 348 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: command is you order the land, you fence it off, you, 349 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 2: you make it into private property. You put domestic animals 350 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: in there instead of wild animals. All these things, and 351 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: and and so. As they expanded and got more territory. 352 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: Uh. 353 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: They they in a sense justified what they were doing 354 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 2: and and in some pretty deceptive and violent ways to 355 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: deprive people of the land. They you know, they exerted 356 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 2: their own dominion and and they really didn't question whether 357 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: they were right or wrong, whether their interpretation was appropriate 358 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: or not. There was just this certitude, this is what 359 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 2: God has given us to do. These people are not obeying. 360 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: So that so in a sense they're less than Christians. 361 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: So our you know, our kind of mandate toward them 362 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: is to take care of them, lead them to christ 363 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: later on that began to civilize them, make us assimilate 364 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: them into two white Anglo Saxon culture in the in 365 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: the nineteenth century. So it's it's this kind of idea 366 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 2: that that the the the English colonists who came here 367 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 2: had a very clear sense of what Christianity looked like 368 00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 2: and what they were to do, and that was to 369 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: the detriment of the indigenous people who they really whose 370 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 2: cultures they did not respect. They were savage and primitive 371 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. So it was all 372 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: kind of a matter of and you see this all 373 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: the way through the early twentieth century. This idea that 374 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: land is to be developed and or as appearance that 375 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: improved proved. So here we are. Here, we are in 376 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 2: the twenty first century, and we've commodified the land. The 377 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 2: land is something to be exploited to enriched, drill, drilled drill, 378 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: And we're still in this mode of saying the whole 379 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: purpose of land is to enrich us and fulfill us 380 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 2: in some way, rather than perhaps understanding a different relationship 381 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 2: to creation and a different interpretation of the Bible and 382 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 2: the Genesis text that said we are stewards of the land. 383 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: We are caretakers. The land sustains us. And that's where 384 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 2: the fact that we have refused to listen to indigenous 385 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: peoples give us a different perspective that might change us. 386 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: We just we've been in charge as white people and 387 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: we don't need to listen to them because their ideas 388 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: are not as advanced and sublime and christian as ours. 389 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: So let me ask this because because I think, as 390 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: I think about that understanding of it the way you 391 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: just explained it, one of the questions and sort of 392 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: pinging around on my head is it doesn't feel like 393 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: this would affect the individual as much. Although I think 394 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: even that way of phrasing it is probably way off, 395 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 1: So it may be the better way to say it is. 396 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: This almost feels like it's going to affect the individual 397 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: in part because it squeezes out their culture. In other words, 398 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: it feels like there's some sort of an invasion of 399 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: collective remembering that comes in and says, no, now you're 400 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: going to remember like this, and you're no longer going 401 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: to be able to remember like this, and that fracturing 402 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: and pulling apart does detriment to both sides. 403 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 3: Yes, Jenning's work. 404 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: On Christian imagination I think illustrates this really beautifully. You 405 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: know that the displacement that happens in colonization is two ways. 406 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: The person who's thrown off the land is displaced, but 407 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: then the person who has come to this land is 408 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: also in a foreign space and they don't exactly know 409 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: what to do with it. But it just feels to 410 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: me that there's a sense in which we're losing out 411 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: because we're missing the beautiful aspects of their culture, the 412 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 1: good aspects of other cultures, the true aspects of other culture, 413 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: and we're assuming that ours is sufficiently complete that we 414 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: don't need to hear from anyone else is that is 415 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: that an appropriate way, you know, to sort of frame 416 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: this issue. 417 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 2: Well, I think the one of the important things that 418 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: that you've just said there is is the sense that 419 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: you know, the the damaging aspects of colonization damage both sides. 420 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: So the Indigenous people are in need of healing, I 421 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: mean in terms of all that that they have had 422 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: to endure. Yeah, but white society needs healing because you know, 423 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: the colonization has warped us in certain ways. And so 424 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: the focus isn't I don't think it's property to lay 425 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: blame too much on either side at this point, is 426 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 2: to say, how do we begin too to create a 427 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: space where we can begin to repair our relationships. And 428 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: in order to repair relationships, you've got to give the 429 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: dig You've got to give dignity to the people who 430 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: are on the other side and hear their stories and 431 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 2: let them talk about their pain. And that is something 432 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: that historically white society has and even white Christianity has 433 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 2: not really been willing to do. We need to create 434 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: these spaces so that in a sense acknowledging the settler history. 435 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 2: I think it's a way of saying to Indigenous people, Okay, 436 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 2: we you know, we here's a way that we can 437 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 2: begin to show you that we're listening by embracing this. 438 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 2: But but we want to create a space we're all 439 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: true can be told and without being judged, and we 440 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: we work together to under the under the guidance of 441 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: the spirit and the love of Christ, to to take 442 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 2: these two different narratives, because, yeah, Nigenous people they've experienced, 443 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 2: they've experienced the you know, the really shadow side of 444 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 2: of of colonialism and and and we've suppressed it. And 445 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: so to have somebody say, you see what you're doing here, 446 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 2: let me tell you, let me tell you how that feels, 447 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: and where that's coming from, and what it looks like. 448 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 2: We need to create those spaces if if we're going 449 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: to heal our land and heal our church. 450 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's almost like we've blunted our own imaginations 451 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: about what this could be by bracking out the perspectives 452 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: of other people. A lot of times, I use the 453 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 1: analogy of I used to be into art. I used 454 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: to do a lot of art in high school. And 455 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: so you'd have the still life, basket of fruit in 456 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: the middle of the table, right, the stereotypical still life, 457 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: and then people would sit around the table and draw it, 458 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: and no matter how accurately you rendered your side of 459 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: that basket, there was an aspect of it that somebody 460 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: else was seeing that you couldn't. And it just feels 461 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: to me like that's the spirit of the work that 462 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: you're doing, is you're saying, like, look, these folks, we've 463 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: closed ourselves off and we've decided that it's only our 464 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: perspective that matters that it captures the truth of the basket. 465 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: And that's obviously not the case because people are seeing 466 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,719 Speaker 1: this from different angles, and it's not a denial of 467 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: what you're seeing. It's a supplementation, broadening of our understanding 468 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: of truth because we're pulling in different perspectives. Now, obviously 469 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: some of the things that we have have to be 470 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: corrected as well, and that's where some of this stuff 471 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: starts to come in. But I don't know, I uh, 472 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: I just find this to be a really I like 473 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: the way you approach the work in terms of combating 474 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: that set lar narrative, because I really feel like it's 475 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: the stories that we're telling ourselves that are creating and 476 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: perpetuating some of these enduring structures exactly as opposed. 477 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 3: To trying to and you said it. 478 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's not about placing blame at this point, 479 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: like we've all been living with this kind of unwittingly 480 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: for a really long time. And so we've got to 481 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: get underneath and understand why the story is wrong and 482 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: and fix it. 483 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there is a considerable legacy of colonialism going 484 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: on in in this in this land. And uh it again, 485 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: it's it's so important to just get this sense that 486 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: and I hear this that too. Yeah, you can't blame 487 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 2: me for what happened in the past. I don't take 488 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: ownership of that. And and and that's exactly right. I 489 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 2: can't be responsible for you know, this massacre or this 490 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: deceitful thing. But as a servant of Christ, I suggest 491 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 2: I do have an obligation to to bring healing into 492 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 2: this space. And that requires some pretty difficult work to 493 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: own that history and to say, all right, how, how 494 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: how having acknowledged Because we don't acknowledge it, then we 495 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: don't go anywhere. And as you know, we have a 496 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 2: movement in the United States right now to replace the 497 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: history with the mythology once again, and to reset and 498 00:34:54,680 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 2: replace and restore that myth of innocence that that says 499 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 2: we're not going to talk about any of the bad stuff. 500 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 2: We're only going to talk about the good stuff. You know, 501 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: talk about the bad stuff is a downer and it 502 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: makes people uncomfortable. We talk about the good stuff makes 503 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 2: us feel good about ourselves. And so there are those 504 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 2: patterns there. Those those go all the way back to 505 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: the colonial era, and at some point we've got to 506 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: rewrite the script. 507 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: I ask you kind of a curve ball question. I 508 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: don't know whether you've thought about this much, but when 509 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: you look out at sort of trends like globalization or 510 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: the advancement of technology, and you know the sort of 511 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: fetish we have for progress, Let's say, do you see 512 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: in that sort of resonances of the settlar narrative that 513 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: these like almost echoes, that these are non landed right, 514 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: extensions almost of the setular narrative. 515 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not of the settler narrative, but of the 516 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 2: colonial narrative. So kind of deo colonialism now on the 517 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 2: part it's it's not so much nations as multinational corporations yea. 518 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 2: And so colonialism has I think is morphing yet again, 519 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 2: as as nation states kind of move away or deal 520 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: with the legacies of European colonialism in various ways. But 521 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 2: settler colonialism is is is a subset of the colonial process, 522 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 2: and the difference between settler colonials and garden variety colonizers 523 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 2: is that settler colonialists colonists want land there after, land 524 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: that they can they can use, as opposed to most 525 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: of the expressions of colonialism European colonialism that went into 526 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 2: places to exploit labor, exploit natural resources, take the wealth 527 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 2: back to the colonial center. So the United States in 528 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: the United States is a settler colonial state, Canada, Australia 529 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: and so forth. As some would say, it's after land. 530 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 531 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, So so. 532 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: We got about ten minutes left, So I kind of 533 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: want to jump into what do we do about this? 534 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: I think you've done a really good job in the 535 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: book of kind of laying out all the different aspects 536 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: of the narrative, and I know we're not scratching the 537 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: surface on those which we weren't really intending to in 538 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: a forty five minute podcast. 539 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 3: That's why you wrote a book. 540 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: But as just everyday Christians look out at this thing 541 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: and they say, what do I do? You know, I 542 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: don't want to become an activist, But I do want 543 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: to address these things, and I need to understand how 544 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,439 Speaker 1: to approach some of the history that I've I've really 545 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: become accustomed to in ways that allow me to start 546 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: unwinding that setular narrative and really start understanding. I would 547 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: argue that it's it's a matter of discipleship, understanding and 548 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: putting that history that we learn under the authority of Christ, 549 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: so that the truth really is what matters, not some 550 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: sanitized narrative. 551 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 3: So what what what would you what advice. 552 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: Would you give for Christians who are just sort of 553 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: moving into this after you've been in it for a 554 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: long time. 555 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the first yeah, I've walked, I've walked this 556 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 2: this this path. So the first thing to do, I think, 557 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 2: just based on my own experience, is just learn read 558 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: and particularly if you're if you're captured by this, look 559 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 2: into the stories of your own locale. Who are the 560 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 2: indigenous people who are here? What happened to them? Why 561 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 2: are they no longer here? Where are they? And and 562 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: when you begin to to go down that line, then 563 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 2: and and I uh, begin to address the you know, 564 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 2: your own local stories, then you can have a sense 565 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: of how this whole process has impacted the perspectives and 566 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 2: the practices. And it may not be directed toward Indigenous people, 567 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 2: it may be directed toward other people. But but once 568 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 2: you get a sense of how that's worked in in 569 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 2: in in your own space, you begin to kind of 570 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 2: develop a larger perspective. A great book called Healing Haunted 571 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 2: Histories by A Lane Ends and Chad Myers, is a good, 572 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 2: good way to very practical way to look into that 573 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: talk about how the stories are, and they talk about 574 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 2: family stories. They both provide us resources and and really 575 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 2: expose some things. So I would say that The other 576 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 2: thing I would say is is begin to make connections 577 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 2: with Indigenous people. So go to pow wows Uh, visit 578 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 2: an Indian center when there's there's an event, or just 579 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: and and and just begin and and and acquaint yourself 580 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 2: with some of the issues that that various Indigenous people 581 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 2: are facing socially, politically, whatever, and get a sense of 582 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 2: how you you might or are inclined to stand with 583 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 2: with them local internationally. Those are three out of. 584 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: A number, just one question. I mean, I have a 585 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: ton of questions, but I only have time for a couple. 586 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: So I'm picking them a thinking about what content we consume. 587 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 1: We're in a world right now that media has become 588 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: increasingly proficient at reinforcing whatever narrative it is that we 589 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: happen to believe in the first place. And so, you know, 590 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,720 Speaker 1: folks who are listening to this podcast may be sitting 591 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: there quasi offended or frustrated that this conversation is happening 592 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 1: or what have you know, it may hit some people wrong. 593 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 3: I guess that is all I'm saying. 594 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: And so I mean, aside from encouraging, what I try 595 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: to encourage listeners to do is just calm, thoughtful theological conversation. Right, 596 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: don't be offended, think about it. Right, you don't have 597 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: to accept it, but don't reject it either. But as 598 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: you interact with content, I know you're in a more 599 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: scholarly space. What advice would you give to people about 600 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: where to turn for good wisdom on these matters? You know, 601 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: how do they interact with the news on a nightly basis? 602 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: How do they interact with the you know what I'm saying, like, 603 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: how do they escape? Because you're talking about unwinding a narrative, 604 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: but the narrative is all around us. 605 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 3: So yeah. 606 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, And and the media, as we all know, you know, 607 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 4: makes a bundle by keeping us separated and kind of 608 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 4: getting us looking at the extremes rather than finding finding 609 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 4: a way to come together. 610 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 2: I think humility is a big part of the enterprise 611 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 2: where I just want to follow Christ and and and 612 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 2: and respect you and hear you. And as you said, 613 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,879 Speaker 2: let's let's let's you know, let's not go into this 614 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 2: with with me trying to define to defend myself or 615 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,720 Speaker 2: my beliefs. I don't, I don't. I don't think Christ 616 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 2: is looking for defenders right now. He's looking for disciples 617 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,800 Speaker 2: and and the way and the voices. I think you you, you, 618 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 2: and why appreciate podcasts like this. I mean, if we 619 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:15,720 Speaker 2: can find some places where people are actually modeling uh uh, congenial, 620 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:23,240 Speaker 2: respectful conversations together. Uh, I think not only will we 621 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 2: find a way forward, but we'll here are we'll find 622 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 2: some healing. I mean, we're not, as you alluded, we're 623 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 2: not gonna we're not going to help ourselves ultimately as 624 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 2: individuals are a nation by just you know, defending our 625 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 2: you know, our position against that other group. And yeah, 626 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 2: we're we're we're children, we're Disciples of Jesus Christ. Let's 627 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 2: let's be a peaceable people. Let's let's put relationships over prince, 628 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 2: over over ideology. Yeah yeah, let's let's let's love each other. 629 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 630 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: It seems like a pretty simple thing to do, right. 631 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not a little sappy to sell, but really, 632 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 5: I mean, how can you love God whom you cannot 633 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 5: see if you do not love your brother's sister whom 634 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:19,760 Speaker 5: you do see? 635 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 4: Right? 636 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I think it's really good. 637 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: I mean I appreciate not only the book, but I 638 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: appreciate hearing kind of your journey with this because it's 639 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: led you to some really cool places. You mentioned before 640 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: the podcast, you're going to be working on the translation 641 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: committee with the with Terry Wilman I've had on the 642 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: show before, but maybe talk a little bit about that. 643 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 3: It's sort of a this is a nice journey you've 644 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 3: had through this. 645 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: I mean, you start with just the basic Old Testament stuff, right, 646 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 1: doing some good work there, and then all of a 647 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: sudden you end up writing a book that's. 648 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 3: Really outside your niche. 649 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,399 Speaker 1: I mean you know what I'm saying, Like, Yeah, there's 650 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: something about a specialty that tends to keep you a narrow, 651 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: but you've really gone different direction. And so yeah, just 652 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what you're going to be 653 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: doing on the editorial board. 654 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 2: Well, the Translation Council. Yeah, Yeah. Terry and his wife 655 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 2: Darlene are folks that I met while I was out speaking, 656 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 2: and we have just become really great friends. And so 657 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 2: you may be aware that Psalms and Proverbs First Nations 658 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 2: version has has been published as well. And so actually 659 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,399 Speaker 2: Terry invited me up to the Translation Council when they 660 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 2: began work to launch that particular volume and asked me 661 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 2: if I would serve as a Hebrew language consultant, and 662 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 2: I immediately said yes, because I will play my hand here. 663 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:54,320 Speaker 2: I love being an indigenous space. It's just so healing 664 00:45:54,480 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 2: and different. There is it's different, and it nourishes my soul. 665 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 2: And just being a part of that group. The way 666 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,719 Speaker 2: they think, the way they talk, the way they honor Christ, 667 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 2: it's just I'm so grateful. So I VP wants to 668 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 2: do the whole Old Testament, I guess. So Terry calls 669 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 2: me up after we get to solve some proverbs out 670 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 2: and he says, hey, if you like doing Genesis through 671 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 2: second gigs, sure, let's do. Yeah, it's been a great experience. 672 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 2: I'm sure if Terry kind of talked to you about 673 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 2: all the decisions that have to be made and how 674 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 2: difficult that is to to reframe translation in an indigenous mode. 675 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: Well, and you all are cranking them out at a 676 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: pace that I wouldn't anticipate as possible, So kudos to that. 677 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, it was a fascinating conversation. He was really helpful, 678 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: and so I feel like those conversations, this conversation are 679 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 1: kind of leading me down a path as well, which 680 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: is great. 681 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 3: And so I really. 682 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: Appreciate you being here today to talk this through. Where 683 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: we're kind of up on time, so I want to 684 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: respect your time as well. But this has been fantastic 685 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 1: and I really appreciate you being here. 686 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Jan, Thank you so much for the invitation. 687 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 2: As you may have detected, this topic lights me up. Yeah, 688 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,840 Speaker 2: I just I so much appreciate your your invitation to 689 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,319 Speaker 2: talk about it and where see where things go? 690 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely well everybody. So this is an IVP published book. 691 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: I think you probably picked that up. So we listeners 692 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,240 Speaker 1: get twenty percent. There's a discount code in the show notes, 693 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,280 Speaker 1: and so if you order it, off of ivp's website, 694 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 1: which that link will be there as well, and you 695 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: put into the discount code, you'll get twenty percent off 696 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:53,720 Speaker 1: this book. 697 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 3: I would really recommend it. 698 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: I think undoing Manifest Destiny approaches this ties one of 699 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: the books I've read that I felt was very approachable 700 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: for someone who might be new to this conversation. I 701 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 1: thought it was just a really nice way to enter 702 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: this conversation and think about it, and so I'd recommend 703 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 1: it highly. 704 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 3: Check it out. 705 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,680 Speaker 1: I'mdoing Manifest Destiny Setler America, Christian Colonists and the Pursuit 706 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: of Justice by L. Daniel Hawk, And like I said, 707 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: the link will be there in the show notes. So again, Daniel, 708 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 1: thanks for being here and thanks everybody for listening. We'll 709 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 1: see on the next episode of Thinking Christian take care 710 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: of Everybody. I just want to take a second to 711 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with 712 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to 713 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered 714 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 715 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:46,359 Speaker 1: and more.