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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: Let's be clear about this. A lot of the stuff

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Speaker 2: that we've talked about being big issues today. Maybe this

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Speaker 2: is our bad, but we generally and when we cite

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Speaker 2: the list of those issues we've not included pornography.

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Speaker 3: It seeps into all these other issues that concern us.

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Speaker 3: The divorce epidemic shaped by pornography, self image and depression,

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Speaker 3: and loneliness shaped by pornography, Social media shaped by pornography.

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Speaker 3: The number one way kids are learning about sex is

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Speaker 3: through foreign Talk to your kids for the book we

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Speaker 3: are going to discuss today is one of the most

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Speaker 3: disturbing and heartbreaking accounts I've read in a long time.

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Speaker 3: Listen or watch before you have kids present, Why Well,

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Speaker 3: we're going to talk about a book called Pornocracy, and

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Speaker 3: what's unique about it is it's written from two UK

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Speaker 3: writers from a secular perspective, a critique of pornography, arguing

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Speaker 3: its affected relationships, the brain, the law, and quite literally

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Speaker 3: everyone and everything in society in some fashion. Scott, what's

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Speaker 3: your general takeaway from reading this book before we get

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Speaker 3: into some of the particulars.

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Speaker 2: Well, Sean, Honestly, I've vacillated between being terrified and being nauseated.

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Speaker 2: Those were my two takeaway reactions. And what they're describing

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Speaker 2: in this is not only the phenomena of pornograph, but

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Speaker 2: the industry behind it, and what a huge economic enterprise

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Speaker 2: this is, and how it's influenced the law, how it's

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Speaker 2: influenced the way our brains are wired, how it's influenced

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Speaker 2: the way it affects our relationships, and how it's impacted,

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Speaker 2: for the most part, hugely negatively, the lives of the

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Speaker 2: people who've been victimized by it. I mean, it is

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Speaker 2: an incredibly disturbing look at what some people still think

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Speaker 2: is harmless entertainment. And Sean, you can't, you just can't

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Speaker 2: hold that view. That is just not a plausible view

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Speaker 2: of pornography. After reading this, I.

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Speaker 1: Think that's really what I said.

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Speaker 3: Because for a long time it was conservatives, maybe it

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Speaker 3: was Protestants, Catholics, Evangelicals.

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Speaker 2: Some would say Puritans.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, puritans from within a religious fold. But we've come

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Speaker 3: full circle now where you see in this book many

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Speaker 3: in particular too secular writers and thinkers making some of

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Speaker 3: the same kind of critique that you and I and

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Speaker 3: others have made. Now, what's not in this book is

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Speaker 3: the hopeful positive vision of sexuality because God is totally absent,

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Speaker 3: will come to that. But as far as the critic

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Speaker 3: it was chilling. There was a few times I almost

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Speaker 3: put the book down and was like, do I even

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Speaker 3: want to read this? And it's not salacious. The reason

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Speaker 3: is they're like, we're going to give you a sense

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Speaker 3: as best we can of the ubiquity of pornography, the

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Speaker 3: effects of pornography, the kinds of pornography, And a couple

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Speaker 3: of times I stopped. I'm like, not only do I

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Speaker 3: not want to watch this, I don't even want in

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Speaker 3: my mind and my brain what's happening. But I felt

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Speaker 3: obligated to because I think many of us want to

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Speaker 3: pretend this issue is not there. If they're right, and

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Speaker 3: I suspect they're right about a lot of what they say,

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Speaker 3: we need to wake up.

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Speaker 2: So, Sean, what what do you think is the main

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Speaker 2: thesis of the book. What's what's the heart of this

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Speaker 2: that the authors are really getting that.

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Speaker 3: So in two thousand and six, there was a book

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Speaker 3: written by a journalist by name of Pamela Paul and

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Speaker 3: she called it Pornifide. So in two thousand and six,

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Speaker 3: we're roughly a decade into pornography being available on the Internet,

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Speaker 3: it's the start of social media. Obviously there's no AI,

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Speaker 3: and a decade or so into this, she's saying, pornography

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Speaker 3: has infiltrated our society.

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Speaker 1: It's become pornified.

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Speaker 3: Pornocracy is playing off the termocracy like democracy or aristocracy,

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Speaker 3: is that it's not just affecting our culture. It's actually

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Speaker 3: shaping and directing our culture by certain power players in

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Speaker 3: the porn industry in a way we haven't seen in

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Speaker 3: the past. So they get They start off in the

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Speaker 3: introduction by saying pornocracy it's a noun. It's a society

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Speaker 3: in which political power, culture, relationships, and identity are shaped

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Speaker 3: or dominated by the purveyors of pornography. So the new

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Speaker 3: angle here is kind of this law and the and

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Speaker 3: the power that it's actually becoming not only normalized, but

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Speaker 3: there's this kind of top down political power at play

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Speaker 3: pushing this in the name of liberty and freedom in

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Speaker 3: a way that they say is just wrecking our society. Now,

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Speaker 3: in some ways we'll come back to more of what

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Speaker 3: that is. But let me read one thing that they

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Speaker 3: say here. She says, like two of them say, generations

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Speaker 3: raised with smartphones have now viewed scenes of rape, choking,

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Speaker 3: and incest before experiencing their first real life kiss. I mean,

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Speaker 3: just how does that affect the brain? How does that

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Speaker 3: affect your expectations? And some of the lines they say,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, these are biblical critiques minus the biblical theology.

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Speaker 3: She says, over nearly three decades, online porn has trained

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Speaker 3: the mind to see women not as persons but as

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Speaker 3: costumes to be worn, roles to be assumed. This dehumanization

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Speaker 3: cuts deep, exactly. And so here's the way in the intro,

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Speaker 3: I'll just kind of read to frame this hopefully well,

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Speaker 3: they say, this is the pornocracy, ancient patriarchal scripts rebooted

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Speaker 3: for the digital age. Spikeham's new tofying apps, which you

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Speaker 3: and I have talked about in our cultural updates recently,

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Speaker 3: the theft of intimate images have transformed every woman's existence

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Speaker 3: into sexual entertainment, reducing her to a commodity to be traded.

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Speaker 3: Looming on the horizon is a future of relentless sexualized surveillance,

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Speaker 3: where women and girls are shut out from public life altogether.

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Speaker 3: If we continue to defend pornography as a matter of

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Speaker 3: personal preference, and this is the autonomy that you and

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Speaker 3: I have talked about, the fate of women in the

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Speaker 3: West may come out to resemble that of women living

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Speaker 3: in theocracies. After all, our bodies are the same the

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Speaker 3: world over, and the misogyny knows no borders.

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Speaker 1: So not only is this a critique, it's kind of.

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Speaker 3: Like a secular prophetic book about how these changes in

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Speaker 3: technology will lead us when it comes to girls and women. Now,

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Speaker 3: they're not saying pornography is only a male phenomenon.

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Speaker 2: And it's not a it's not a distinctly feminist critique either.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's correct. That's an important point.

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Speaker 2: It is because the authors it's it's a man and

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Speaker 2: a woman who are co authoring this.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right, which is important I think. And so

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Speaker 3: bottom line, they say, perhaps the greatest victory in porn's

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Speaker 3: relentless rise to power is how it has become normalized.

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Speaker 3: And the word they use is respectable, which even goes

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Speaker 3: beyond a norm. Shame has been inverted everywhere from schools

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Speaker 3: to teachers, government guidance to fashionable dinner party conversations.

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Speaker 1: Those who criticize.

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Speaker 3: Porn are sneered at as censorious sex negative or horphobic,

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Speaker 3: and I say, amen, it's about time. Conservetive Christians are

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Speaker 3: not the only ones saying this, And I'm happy.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to wear those labels because I think I

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Speaker 2: think they're they're absolutely right about how pervasive it's become.

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Speaker 2: And there's sean there's just there's no way around this,

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Speaker 2: and the free expression argument starts to starts to just

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Speaker 2: sound a little hollow when you see all of the

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Speaker 2: implications that they describe here. So let's let's be clear

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Speaker 2: about this. How big an issue would you say this

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Speaker 2: is today as opposed to things like radical Islam, artificial intelligence,

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Speaker 2: Christian nationalism, critical theory. You know, a lot of the

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Speaker 2: stuff that we've talked about being big issues today. I mean,

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Speaker 2: maybe this is our bad, but we generally and when

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Speaker 2: we cite a list of those issues, we've not included

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Speaker 2: pornography in that, and I think that's an oversight on

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Speaker 2: our part. And this, this book has definitely corrected that

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Speaker 2: in my view. So where would you put it on

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Speaker 2: the list?

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Speaker 3: So let me I'm going to answer that, but let

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Speaker 3: me just give a sense of how big it is

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Speaker 3: this this Uh, this book has some stats that I

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Speaker 3: think frame it for us.

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Speaker 1: So how big.

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Speaker 2: You knew it? Point?

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Speaker 3: You know me well by eight years and five hundred episodes.

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Speaker 3: So one study of day site, which they say is

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Speaker 3: debt dated, that global revenues for porn is about ninety

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Speaker 3: seven billion, more than the GDP of most nations on Earth,

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Speaker 3: most nations on Earth, it's GDP. So later in the

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Speaker 3: book they bring out and they say just how how

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Speaker 3: normalized and even unremarkable looking at porn is. They say

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Speaker 3: the porn industry's value is double that of Hollywood. It's

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Speaker 3: double that. In twenty twenty, the world's four largest pornography

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Speaker 3: sites received nearly eleven billion visitors each month, greater than

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Speaker 3: the number of visitors to Amazon LinkedIn, Netflix, Zoom, and

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Speaker 3: eBay combined. Now, the biggest side of them, which they

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Speaker 3: name and I'm not going to name, the porn site

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Speaker 3: on this podcast, was named the third most quote socially

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Speaker 3: impactful tech brand of the twenty first century. Those numbers,

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Speaker 3: in some ways tell the story in itself. Now when

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Speaker 3: we compare that to radical Islam and AI like, it's

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Speaker 3: almost impossible to really rank them. But in terms of

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Speaker 3: a belief system that more people are embracing, leading them

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Speaker 3: away from Jesus. You can't think of something more than

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Speaker 3: Islam because it's way more influential than Christian nationalism than

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Speaker 3: any other competing narrative, progressive Christianity, fill in the blank.

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Speaker 1: It's radical Islam. But when it comes to.

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Speaker 3: How big of an issue is, it's hard for me

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Speaker 3: to not place it in the top five, and at

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Speaker 3: least probably in the top three, because I think it

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Speaker 3: seeps into all these other issues that concern us, so

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Speaker 3: larger questions about LGBTQ clearly shaped in many ways by pornography.

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Speaker 3: The divorce epidemic shaped by pornography, self image and depression

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Speaker 3: and loneliness shaped by pornography, Social media shaped by pornography.

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Speaker 3: So it's not like a set of beliefs like again,

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Speaker 3: Christian nationalism or radical Islam, but it's underlying influence. I

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Speaker 3: think it's within the top three. Now, agreed, disagreement.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd add to that one notion that used to

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Speaker 2: be controversial that I don't think is anymore, and that

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Speaker 2: is violence against women has been shaped by pornography. Now

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Speaker 2: that used to be controversial, and the pornography companies will

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Speaker 2: be vehemently deny that porn contributes to that. But as

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Speaker 2: we get into more of this, Sean, uh, some of

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Speaker 2: the stuff we I mean, we may have to be

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Speaker 2: we may have to use some euphemisms to describe some

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Speaker 2: of this. But I think it has radically changed the expectations,

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Speaker 2: particularly of people who have sort of have grown up

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Speaker 2: with some of some of the newer types of porn

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Speaker 2: that has become incredibly popular, and Sean raises it just

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Speaker 2: raises the virtue question for me, and what does this

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Speaker 2: say about us as a culture that we are justifying

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Speaker 2: and we are so attracted to the to these kinds

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Speaker 2: of pornography. That is we'll get to we'll get to

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Speaker 2: some of the details on this minute. Uh. I would

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Speaker 2: put it right at number two, Okay, behind behind radical Islam.

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Speaker 2: I think that is. That is I think still the

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Speaker 2: main threat, and particularly radical Islam, maybe not so much

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Speaker 2: in the West, but clearly in the developing world. You know,

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Speaker 2: our folks who are on the mission field in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East and especially in Africa, will they will tell

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Speaker 2: us that the two things that they worry about most

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Speaker 2: in their churches are Islam and the prosperity Gospel.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Both those are the two most important issues that their

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Speaker 2: people face regularly.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, if I could qualify this, it's

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Speaker 3: not just radical Islam. If there's a belief system that

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Speaker 3: more people believe leading them away from Jesus, it's any

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Speaker 3: kind of Islam that denies the trinity and the deity

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Speaker 3: of Jesus. So for society, radical Islam in terms of

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Speaker 3: a belief system that's leading more people away from Jesus,

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Speaker 3: it's any version of Islam, I would say, but that's

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Speaker 3: a separate conversation.

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Speaker 1: You put it number two, which is high and huge.

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Speaker 2: And but before I read this, I wouldn't have Oh wow,

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Speaker 2: I would have can't have put it, you know, somewhat

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Speaker 2: further down the list. Okay, but it's the it's the new.

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Speaker 2: So it's what's new in pornography that has gotten me

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Speaker 2: to that point.

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Speaker 3: And you know what, I don't know the answer to this,

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Speaker 3: but I wonder how many social ills like take issues

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Speaker 3: like poverty so much driven by broken relationships. How much

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Speaker 3: of those broken relationships driven by pornography, sex trafficking, pornography.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that anybody's really.

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Speaker 3: Drawn this, but part of the point is that it

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Speaker 3: has seeped into our society in so many ways we

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Speaker 3: don't see and hence is at least number three or

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Speaker 3: number two issues of.

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Speaker 2: Conces And that's I think that's precisely their point.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what they're point is.

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Speaker 2: So the chapter I thought that was the most impactful

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Speaker 2: for me was the chapter I think it's two or

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Speaker 2: three entitled not your Granddad's Porn. Yeah, so what has

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Speaker 2: what do they describe as having changed from sort of

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Speaker 2: you know the Playboy magazines that you used to keeping

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Speaker 2: your attic and you know, the stuff that we used

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Speaker 2: to call smut right back, you know, one hundred years ago,

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Speaker 2: to what's what's being purveyed on the internet and social

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Speaker 2: media today. Yeah, this chapter was jarring and I almost

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Speaker 2: was this was a hard one to read. I almost

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Speaker 2: put it down.

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Speaker 3: It's like, I don't even want this in my mind,

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Speaker 3: to be completely honest with you. But the big argument

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Speaker 3: they make is that the real triumph of the pornocracy

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Speaker 3: is respectability. And they say, for example, this is an

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Speaker 3: example they give. It's even assumed a role in politics.

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Speaker 3: Democrat groups campaigning in the twenty twenty four US election

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Speaker 3: paid for advertisements on pornography sites and warn that their

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Speaker 3: opponents would restrict users' access. Now, one thing they don't

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Speaker 3: point out is they're not being political in this book.

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Speaker 3: Is in the twenty twenty four Republican Convention, there was

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Speaker 3: an only fans creator who presented and spoke there. So

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Speaker 3: this is not just one political party. Now, whether it's

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Speaker 3: more in one political party than the other, I have

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Speaker 3: no idea. But their point is just that it's seeping

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Speaker 3: into so many different areas. Here's what they talk about

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Speaker 3: is they talk about how For example, they say, how

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Speaker 3: do we square the claiming This is back to your

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Speaker 3: point about virtue, is that we're told it's wrong to

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Speaker 3: shape people for using pornography. It's a human right. And

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Speaker 3: here's their question, how do we square these claims of

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Speaker 3: the fact that the world's most popular pornography platforms continue

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Speaker 3: to host countless rape videos, child sex abuse material, and

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Speaker 3: revenge porn. That's just a fact. Now, we can pick

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Speaker 3: on the people who are putting this on platforms, but

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Speaker 3: they're putting it on there because people are watching it

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Speaker 3: and desiring it. And so they point out three areas

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Speaker 3: where they think this is not your granddad's porn. And

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Speaker 3: I'll do my best to frame this in a way

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Speaker 3: that's respectable. Number one is sexual violence. So they talk

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Speaker 3: about this twenty twenty three Council Free Quality of Women

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Speaker 3: and Men had they reviewed millions of videos on the

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Speaker 3: biggest international pornography websites and found ninety percent featured verbal, physical,

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Speaker 3: and sexual violence towards women. Ninety percent. I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to read the way that it describes them. It's so

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Speaker 3: objectifying and dehumanizing and dealing with assault and sometimes torture

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Speaker 3: commonly showing up. On another study of one hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty thousand videos in the UK, they found one in

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Speaker 3: eight titles shown to first time visitors of mainstream porn

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Speaker 3: sites describe sexual activity that constitute sexual violence. So another estimate,

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Speaker 3: between thirty five and forty five percent of scenes include

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Speaker 3: at least one act of a go and by the way,

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Speaker 3: women were the target ninety seven percent of the time.

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Speaker 3: So it's also teaching certain roles of men and women

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Speaker 3: and how to treat the opposite sex. So the first

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Speaker 3: massive trend that's different, they say from Playboy magazine is

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Speaker 3: sexual violence. The second one I did not see this coming,

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Speaker 3: Scott is In twenty eighteen, an article in a Squire

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Speaker 3: magazine found that incest was the world's fastest growing porn category.

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Speaker 3: Now that's what do the math seven years ago. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if these are trends that come and go.

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Speaker 3: I'm not tracking these trends that I really don't want to.

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Speaker 3: But they make the point that it's common and it's normalized.

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Speaker 3: And what happens is we have this natural ick factor

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Speaker 3: to kind of incest, and that's broken down.

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Speaker 1: And they say watching decreasingly.

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Speaker 3: Decreasingly exactly, watching incest porn doesn't mean you secretly want

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Speaker 3: to sleep with your sister. What makes it compelling is

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Speaker 3: the extremity itself, the thrill of cost, crossing boundaries and

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Speaker 3: violating taboos, which is the heart of what porography does.

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Speaker 3: And then the third one, which is no surprise, is

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Speaker 3: the barely Legal category of just thousands and thousands of

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Speaker 3: videos titled barely legal teen category. And the age in

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Speaker 3: the US to be in a porn film is eighteen

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Speaker 3: years old. But all these sites have just code words

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Speaker 3: that people can search for for barely legal. That's the

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Speaker 3: shift three things we've seen in pornography. They point that

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Speaker 3: is just disturbing.

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Speaker 2: Here's I'd add a fourth to it, to it and

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Speaker 2: it's just one line. And as the filmed torture of

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Speaker 2: human beings remains largely free from legal censure, choking, slapping,

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Speaker 2: various forms of what we tip have called sado masochism, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, are now are now routine. And the danger

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Speaker 2: in this shown is that what struck me in this

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Speaker 2: is that people who view this from a young age

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Speaker 2: start to expect that this is normal their in their

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Speaker 2: sexual relationships that they have. And the boys think it's

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Speaker 2: you know, every everybody does this, and the girls think

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Speaker 2: that this is what the boys want. And so we

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Speaker 2: have we have we have what I would call it

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Speaker 2: is it's created a category of willing victims, which we've

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Speaker 2: which I don't think we've had much before. You know,

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Speaker 2: we we typically have said, you know, rape victims, it's

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Speaker 2: non consensual. Well, I mean it may it may be

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Speaker 2: bordering on that here. Uh. And so it's it's you

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Speaker 2: can see where it's a little easier to see the

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Speaker 2: justification for that. If consent is our only a ton

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Speaker 2: of mean consent are our only moral values governing this,

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Speaker 2: then there's there's nothing to stop this. And we need

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Speaker 2: what we need. I think what we have here is

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Speaker 2: a little dash of utilitarian thinking, a little dash of

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Speaker 2: the consequences that are being produced by this. And Sean,

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Speaker 2: I think most people, I think today are not They're

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Speaker 2: not aware of these consequences. They're not aware of how

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Speaker 2: normalized this kind of extreme behavior has become. And that's

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Speaker 2: the that is just this incredible danger. Uh. And I

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Speaker 2: think you know, I mean, I'm I'm glad that I'm

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Speaker 2: not raising a teenage girl today, and I'd be terrified

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Speaker 2: if I was raising one in the UK from what

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Speaker 2: they're describing, and that, you know, the US is I

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Speaker 2: don't think any different than what's taking place in the UK.

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Speaker 1: I think that's true.

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Speaker 3: But I wish they had drawn out more the bank

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Speaker 3: cruptcy of a consent sexual ethic, which is what people

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Speaker 3: have said, as long as there's consent, then it's moral

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Speaker 3: and it's justified, and it's a matter of freedom. The

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Speaker 3: point being it leads to these most dehumanizing, degrading kind

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Speaker 3: of scenes, and people that are watching this can't tell

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Speaker 3: who's acting, can't tell if this is real, shapes their brain,

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Speaker 3: shapes their expectations, and.

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Speaker 2: We should be I think we should be fair too,

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Speaker 2: that there is a lot of this that is not consensual.

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Speaker 1: That's right too.

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Speaker 2: Some of this what they call you you d c

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Speaker 2: u GC user generated content is often done surreptitiously and posted,

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Speaker 2: and that's that's the revenge porn that you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Almost all of that is done non consensually, and it

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Speaker 2: challenges our cultural notion of freedom, because this, of all

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Speaker 2: things is the is the epitome of the cultural notion

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Speaker 2: of freedom to do whatever the heck you want. Instead

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Speaker 2: of the freedom to do what you ought and freedom

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Speaker 2: that's constrained by virtue, this is freedom constrained by virtually nothing,

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Speaker 2: and not even the law is constraining this in a

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Speaker 2: lot of the world. So that I think it just

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Speaker 2: gives it gives it. It points out the lae I

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Speaker 2: think in the worldview that undergirds the justification for this

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Speaker 2: kind of pornography.

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Speaker 3: So either you justify it, as some people do, and

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Speaker 3: porn companies increasingly say we're monitoring this. It's a matter

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Speaker 3: of freedom, or they say, oh, yeah, there's a problem

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Speaker 3: with this. But then that shows the emptiness of the

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Speaker 3: secular ethic and invites are there norms about how we

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Speaker 3: should treat people? Is there a purpose for the human body?

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Speaker 3: Is there a right and is there wrong? Well, those

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Speaker 3: are the only two choices.

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Speaker 2: Well, those norms sort of seep out here.

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Speaker 1: They do, they don't without justify case. They don't say

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Speaker 1: it directation, But you.

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Speaker 2: Know, decrying sexual violence tells you something about their moral compass,

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Speaker 2: and you know they you know, and you know, being

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Speaker 2: a rape victim tells you, you know, they're not in

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Speaker 2: the business of justifying sexual assault. And I still I

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Speaker 2: find it hard to believe, you know, as our colleague

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Speaker 2: Bill Craig put it, anybody tries to justify sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: And he's a therapist, not an argument, But I still

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Speaker 2: find I'm having difficulty shown swallowing the notion that the

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Speaker 2: porn companies are actually justifying these violent scenes of rape,

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Speaker 2: the you know, choking of women in under the guise

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Speaker 2: of of of of sexual expression. Uh, you know, the

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Speaker 2: way women the women are there, they're posted not just

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Speaker 2: not just the victim of sexual assault, but they're posted physical.

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Speaker 2: So they're they're posted on these things with black guys

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Speaker 2: and cuts on their faces.

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Speaker 3: And people are looking for those kind of images within

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Speaker 3: right women And so he does they do ask the

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Speaker 3: question how does this happen? And they're like not by accident,

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Speaker 3: there was a plan here. It's driven by making money,

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Speaker 3: but it's also controlled by men. The primary people who

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Speaker 3: are running these porn companies are not women. It's men

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Speaker 3: who get to see women treated the way they want to.

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Speaker 3: They get money from it, and the women are really

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Speaker 3: the victims of this. Although you know, in some ways

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Speaker 3: this it brings us to the next lit.

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Speaker 2: But part of the point they're making too is that

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Speaker 2: women aren't the only victims.

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Speaker 1: That's correct, and so I think.

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Speaker 2: It's fair to say that women are the main victims.

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Speaker 2: And I think, yeah, oh might I might say children

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Speaker 2: are the main victims with this, but they're certainly not

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Speaker 2: the only ones. And one of the things I think

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Speaker 2: was so helpful in this is pointing out how men

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Speaker 2: are victimized. I think probably in many, in many, ifs

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Speaker 2: not most cases, without their knowledge. I agree with that,

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Speaker 2: So say a little bit more about, yeah, who the

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Speaker 2: victims are here.

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Speaker 3: So I'm glad, I'm glad you transition to this. Because

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Speaker 3: we're so affected by autonomy and freedoms to do what I want,

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Speaker 3: there can be a temptation from Christians to say, well,

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Speaker 3: somebody wants to be a porn star, they should have

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Speaker 3: the right to do it.

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Speaker 1: They made a choice, and I'd say sex work, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: that's a fair way to put it.

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Speaker 3: Known as a porn star is the language that you

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Speaker 3: used for it. So yeah, somebody, we have culpability for

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Speaker 3: our choices, but we don't see behind the curtain at

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Speaker 3: how much people are damaged by this. So in the book,

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Speaker 3: on page twelve, it says in twenty twenty two, a

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Speaker 3: group of twenty ex porn performers launched a campaign urging

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Speaker 3: the industry to raise the minimum age of participants for

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Speaker 3: from eighteen to twenty one. In an open letter, the

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Speaker 3: Women So this is All Women listed a catalog of

435
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: abusive practices inflicted by agents, producers and directors, including being

436
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 3: made to enact sadistic pedophile fantasies, being rushed into signing

437
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 3: consent forms, and being coerced into high pressure situations to

438
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: do sex acts we've clearly said we will not do.

439
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 3: That's a huge piece of it here. Now, what really

440
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,239
Speaker 3: saddens me about this, Scott is they said here, they

441
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: said even before setting foot on a set, women in porn,

442
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 3: and indeed the sex industry as a whole, are far

443
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 3: more likely to have experienced sexual abuse than the wider population.

444
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: Now they I'm not a psychologist, so I don't want

445
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: to speak out of my expertise here, but they just

446
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: kind of suggest here because part of it is like,

447
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: why on earth if somebody was sexually abused would they

448
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 3: go into an area like porn, like you think they'd

449
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: run the opposite to And they say a handful of

450
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: testimonies from survivors suggests that for some viewing abuse is

451
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 3: a way to make sense of what's happened to them.

452
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 3: So they quote somebody saying, a person who was abused

453
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 3: from age seven, I turned a porn to normalize what

454
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: was happening to me. Every time I go on the internet,

455
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: I'd searched for porn rape scenes to try and convince myself,

456
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 3: and what was happening to me was okay. It reinforced

457
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: in my mind that women were there to be used

458
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: for sex, and at the end they always seem to

459
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 3: be like it. Anyways, this girl from age seven just

460
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 3: horribly abused and the worst way imaginable doesn't know how

461
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 3: to make sense of it, and porn at least gave

462
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: her a sense of, oh, I'm not alone, this is

463
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 3: normal and it's people like this who were drawn into

464
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: the porn industry. So yes, they make a choice, but

465
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 3: they're absolutely victims as well, and these porn producers are

466
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: using them for money and for pleasure in the way

467
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 3: that they describe in this book. I think it's just disgusting.

468
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: Before you leave that it's a it's a vicious cycle

469
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: because take a step back, where did where do child

470
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: sexual abusers? You know, what's their exposure to pornography that

471
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: that leaves them to abuse children? I mean, overwhelmingly there's

472
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: that there's that association. Now granted, causation and correlation are

473
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: not the same thing, but this this produce, it produces

474
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: that cycle. That is a that's a really hard one

475
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: to break because you know, I mean people, people who

476
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: treat serial sexual abusers, uh, they comment all the time

477
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: about how difficult it is for them to break that temptation.

478
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: That's that's that's a particularly difficult one to break us.

479
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: That's an addiction that is awfully tough to shake, I think,

480
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: and which is why you know, in the past motivated

481
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: rather radical solutions, which which I don't think either of

482
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: us would support. But I think they recognized from early

483
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: on how difficult it is to break out of that.

484
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: I think the reason why is the very next chapter

485
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: is on the brain's role. When I speak on the

486
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: effects of pornography, I talk how it affects our minds

487
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 3: and the script that we have about love and sex

488
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 3: and treating people, but also physically affects our brain and

489
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: rewires our brains exactly so talking about how when we

490
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 3: and this story has been told a little bit, we've

491
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 3: talked about this, other books have written on this, but

492
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: they say, when we particke, partake in substances or activity,

493
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: we enjoy our brain secrets and intoxicating cocktails of hormones

494
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: and chemical neurotransmitters that trigger a range of pleasurable sensations

495
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 3: from satisfaction to bliss. And when they're released, because it's

496
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: a good feeling, we start creating pathways in the brain

497
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 3: and then go back to those to feel well. It's

498
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: natural to want to feel good, so they describe here

499
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: They say researchers have found the exact same kind of

500
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: pathological learning in porn users as in drug addicts and

501
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: in alcoholics. It's the same brain mechanisms, same brain pathways

502
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: that are involved.

503
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: Here.

504
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: What they write though, which is interesting.

505
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: I hadn't thought about this most worrying of all and

506
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: what makes it so much more pernicious than drugs or alcohol.

507
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 3: Pornography use is perceived by the consumer. It's perceived as

508
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: a behavior and no punishment, only reward. So when someone's drinking,

509
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 3: they're like, well, if I have two, three, four more drinks,

510
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have a hangover. In your mind, you don't

511
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: think you're gonna have a hangover. You're just gonna be

512
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 3: fine the next day. So some of the inhibition that

513
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 3: might keep somebody from abusing that is gone. And then

514
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 3: they describe how when it comes to like addictions with food,

515
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: your body can only have so much sugar and before

516
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: you get physically sick. Internet pornography, which is processed by

517
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: the brain as a high value sexual reward, is unconstrained

518
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 3: by any limits. It's a never ending procession of dishes. Now,

519
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: with that, they ask a question, go ahead, yeah, and then.

520
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: Well, which, like any other addiction, takes more and more

521
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: of it to get the same neurological effect.

522
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so yes, and let me say no, maybe we

523
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 3: differ on this. Let me circle back to that. Hold

524
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: that thought for a second. What they write here, they're

525
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 3: asking a question. They say, uh, do does look at

526
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: porn reflect desires or does it create and shape new desires?

527
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: And they argue, and I think correctly, that what draws

528
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 3: people to pornography like in a drug, if you have

529
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: a drug and you want the same high, you need

530
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 3: a harder drug or greater quantity. But when it comes

531
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: to pornography, it's variety. That's so it drives it. I

532
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: need something different, I need a new experience. So somebody

533
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: starts being driven to look at different things that give

534
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: them the same shock. Stoyt It moves increasingly up the

535
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: scale of more and more extreme, which is all available

536
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 3: one click away. They say, compulsive users are not only

537
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 3: to seek greater quantity, but an ever increasing variety of content,

538
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: and this in turn shapes the brain. So they're not

539
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: concerned about this in the book, and you and I

540
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 3: would view this differently, But they say, one relatively benign

541
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: example is for straight people to start consuming homosexual pornography.

542
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: So if you're a man and you're looking at group sex,

543
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, there's a homosexual element that's present

544
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 3: in it, and it starts to shape the brain and

545
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 3: the mind of what's acceptable. Somebody gets pleasure from it,

546
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: and it can literally sh the script of somebody's brains.

547
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 3: So they say, here, they say, which is more concerning,

548
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 3: was called child's sexual abuse material? Could watching that turn

549
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: people into pedophiles? Now they're not saying it's causative, but

550
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 3: they're saying there's a strong link and connection. And they say,

551
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: what should trouble us is they actually argue that this

552
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: happens at times. What should trouble us even more is

553
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 3: that some of these men who are looking at pedophilic

554
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 3: pornography had said they had no interest in sexually with

555
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 3: children before looking at porn. That seems to be a

556
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: clear cut example that not all, but at least some.

557
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: And they say, bottom night, it doesn't just serve our

558
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 3: sexual tastes, it shapes them. It shapes them. And that's

559
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 3: because there's physical things taking place in the brain with

560
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 3: reward pathways. So when this happens, you can't go back

561
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 3: to just somebody in human flesh who doesn't look like

562
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 3: they do in a porn film, who's normal, and you

563
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 3: destroy your ability to just respond to human being in

564
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: the present.

565
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,439
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good it's a good transition. I think

566
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 2: to how this affects relationships, and this, in my view,

567
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 2: is that the really damaging part of this, because it

568
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: is it is rewiring our brains so that we are

569
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 2: we are becoming less capable of appreciating and enjoying sexual

570
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: relationships with the real person. And it's it's a little

571
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: bit hypocritical, I think, not a lot hypocritical of men,

572
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: because you know, most men who watch this stuff, they

573
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: don't look like the born stars, and you know, and

574
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: so to expect, you know, to expect that the women

575
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 2: they are with look like the women that they see

576
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: when they're not that way at the least, would be

577
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: gross hypocrisy. Uh. But I think the idea that this

578
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: affects relationships, particularly among adolescents, that's the part Sean that

579
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 2: really got my attention, because because if they grow up

580
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 2: watching this stuff on the extreme, which you know, that

581
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: stuff wasn't available until you know, you know, maybe just

582
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: in the last ten years.

583
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: At least easily accessful and available. Yeah, that's true.

584
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: You know, if that when that becomes normalized, then you know,

585
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: like like we said, the boy the boys expect it,

586
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: and the girls know that the boys want that, and

587
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: so it's part of pleasing the boy, uh, and that

588
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: all of a sudden has become normalized among adolescents exactly.

589
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: And you know, there's there's a lot sean, you know,

590
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: all the stuff that happens in adolescence, you know that

591
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: shape the trajectory of where life goes in some pretty

592
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: influential ways. And I just this is so tragic to

593
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: me to see increasingly adolescents being handicapped out of the

594
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: gate from being able to enjoy you know, what you

595
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: and I would consider really good sexual relationships within marriage.

596
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 3: Handicapped is the right word. This advantaged from the get

597
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: go because of this. And you know, one of the

598
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 3: things they point out is they say, most kids, if

599
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 3: they're searching for it, it's just out of curiosity. But

600
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 3: you misspell a word, you're thrown onto a porn site.

601
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: There are people trying to hook kids actively early on,

602
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 3: you know, interestingly early act about how you asked about

603
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 3: how men are victims, and on page thirty seven they

604
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 3: say the truth is men are porn's victims.

605
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: Too.

606
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 3: Takes away their ability to enjoy fulfilling, respectful relationships and

607
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 3: programs them to react to what they see on screen

608
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 3: rather than to value and find mutual pleasure with their partners.

609
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 3: I couldn't have said it better myself. I mean, you

610
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 3: have that same one underlined. I mean, it's just so.

611
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: They say.

612
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 3: On the next page, they say for men and heterosexual relationships,

613
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 3: personal pornography use has been linked with increased relational conflict,

614
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 3: diminished female sexual desire, poor male positive communication, and less

615
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 3: overall satisfaction. Men's solo consumption impoort negatively impacts their female's partners.

616
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: And guess what, even if their partners don't know, that's

617
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 3: the key. So what happens is somebody will come out

618
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 3: of this and then it'll be made known, and then

619
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 3: their partners will say, Okay, now it actually makes sense.

620
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 3: Now I can connect some dots and they you know,

621
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: they have some studies in here. I don't want to

622
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: just believe studies that favor my view, but studies about

623
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 3: divorce increasing because.

624
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 2: Of that link within fidelity link.

625
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: With Yeah, like I think, though it's hard to show cause,

626
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 3: but it's also hard to deny that that is a

627
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 3: huge role driving in fidelity.

628
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: It's a factor. I'm not I'm not sure it's I'm

629
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 2: not sure it's the causative one, but it but I

630
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 2: think to deny the tributy now that it's a factor,

631
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: I think is putting your head in the sand.

632
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: And here's an interesting point, Scott.

633
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 3: It's almost embarrassing that I didn't make this connection before,

634
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 3: because I've read and studied and talked on this. But

635
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: they talk about you know, your question was how is

636
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: it ruining relationships? And they say poorness killing young men's

637
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 3: sexual performance, and so Swiss Reacher's researchers found that thirty

638
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 3: percent of males eighteen to twenty four suffer from some

639
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 3: degree of impotence thirty percent. In twenty fourteen, researchers at

640
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 3: the University of Cambridge found sixty percent of men who

641
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 3: use pornography roughly twenty five age average age, experienced a

642
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 3: rectildis function with sexual partners, but not with porn itself.

643
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: So the problem the way she frames it, I'm just

644
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 3: gonna read it. I don't know any other way to

645
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: frame this.

646
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: They say.

647
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 3: The fact these lads leapt to attention when viewing sexual

648
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: imagery but not in the presence of real life leather

649
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 3: lovers shows there's nothing wrong with their penises. The problem

650
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: lies in the mind, and the problem lies in the brain,

651
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: and I think that's exactly right. The problem is not

652
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 3: that they don't have a libido that can be active.

653
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: The problem is that it's been so shaped by images

654
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 3: online that it doesn't translate to a real partner. That

655
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 3: distinction I think is really important to bring out.

656
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: Here's here's that they summarize this. I suspect you underline

657
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: this too, Okay, porn users are losing the ability to

658
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 2: be in the moment, to be an intimate touch with

659
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 2: their partner.

660
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: I did underline that, exactly right.

661
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 2: And here's they have unwittingly surrendered one of the most

662
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: important attributes of a relationship and one might well say

663
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: of being human.

664
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: Mm hm.

665
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: So it's no surprise that partners suffer from their increasingly

666
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: inhumane behavior.

667
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: I think that's right.

668
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: And again, this would I mean this would I'm you know,

669
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 2: I'm glad I'm not raising daughters today, man, because you know,

670
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: I'm not exactly sure how to how to safeguard them

671
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: from some of this stuff.

672
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 1: Let's let's come back to some thoughts parents.

673
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 3: One of the questions that it's kind of surprised me

674
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 3: for secular thinkers to bring up, although when it comes

675
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 3: to issues like critical theory and transgender ideology. There are

676
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: a number of secular theories. Yes, secular critics pushing back

677
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 3: on this. There are certain strange bedfellows. But this I underlined,

678
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 3: I thought was just fascinated. On page one hundred, they

679
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 3: said the very top of page one hundred, the underside

680
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: of almost every trans coming out story is a pornified

681
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 3: conception of what it is to be a woman. What

682
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 3: is referred to as trans is a hyper sexualized fantasy.

683
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 3: It lures some males to identify as women and terrify

684
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 3: some females into identifying as a male or non binary.

685
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 3: So I'm not saying all of transgender individuals or genertus

686
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: fory is motivated by this, but it's a huge piece

687
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 3: of this, and it's contributed to it sexualized views of

688
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 3: what it means to be a woman. And they refer

689
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:46,879
Speaker 3: to what they call heterosexual and bisexual autogynophilic auto gynophilic

690
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 3: men who were attracted to the fantasy of themselves as women. Well,

691
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 3: in the past, somebody who had that could go talk

692
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 3: with a counselor share with somebody in their life. Now

693
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 3: there's this whole world of people saying that's normal, And

694
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 3: here porn you can look at, and it contributes, they say,

695
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 3: to increased gender confusion. I think that's right, which goes

696
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 3: back to our opening point that you take a range

697
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 3: of issues and beneath it there is a huge percentage

698
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: of influence by pornography.

699
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 1: So let me read this one.

700
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 3: They say, the consensus within the therapeutic profession is to

701
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 3: destigmatize and lift the shame from what we're once categorized

702
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 3: as perversions. With pornographic fuel and no social barriers. It

703
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 3: is unsurprising this one niche behavior has become mainstream, and

704
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 3: they talk about how much things like to say, right

705
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 3: here at present, they're nearly a million members of the

706
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: trans porn subreddit, a discussion board, and that kind of pornography.

707
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: If you struggle with that, you can find it, but

708
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 3: it normalizes it and shapes you and shapes other people

709
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 3: that are just looking for variety. And I think I

710
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 3: think they're right about that.

711
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sean, we've all we've also we've talked a lot

712
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: about this already, So maybe just a comment or two

713
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: about how they view this, But how how are AI

714
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 2: sex robots things like that, you know, moving the pornographic

715
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: ball forward.

716
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 3: This is a really interesting question, and I wrote down

717
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 3: a couple of notes on this. I didn't want to

718
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 3: I didn't want to miss. But they introduced this idea

719
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 3: of a new idea of sexual trauma.

720
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: Sexual trauma.

721
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 3: So I had an interaction some time ago with a

722
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 3: young person who said made a statement about how they

723
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 3: had been assaulted online and were recovering from it. My

724
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: first thought was like, assaulted online? Like what is going on?

725
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 3: Is this an excuse? Like? I just didn't understand what

726
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 3: that means? Just click away. As I read this, I

727
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 3: was like, oh my goodness, I really didn't understand what

728
00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 3: this meant.

729
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: And so they give some examples here.

730
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: They say new technologies like artificial intelligence, deep fakes, and

731
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 3: robotics are like the early Web's nudity and extremity of

732
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: today's tube sites like YouTube, reshaping people's experience. So they

733
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 3: give so one kind of trauma is the kind of

734
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 3: trauma of seeing your face put on to their artificial

735
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 3: intelligence as if it's you and other people watching that

736
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 3: even though it's not you. That's traumatic for an individual.

737
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 3: That hasn't happened to me, and I pray the Lord

738
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 3: it doesn't. But I can only imagine seeing that how

739
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 3: jarring that would be. They give another example of a

740
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: versus story in here about a girl. Here it is

741
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: one day in twenty twenty one, a girl named Nina

742
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 3: Donna virtual reality headset and stepped into the metaverse. Within

743
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: sixty seconds, she became the victim of virtual gang rape.

744
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: Three or four male avatars. The male voices pot at

745
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 3: her virtual persona, mulated sex with her and took pictures.

746
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 3: As she tried to get away, she heard their voices

747
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 3: ringing in their headphones, don't pretend you don't love it,

748
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: and some other things I'm not going to read here.

749
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: I thought, Oh my goodness, there's a whole level of

750
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 3: trauma online, especially for a generation that's more online. They're

751
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 3: comfortable online. We've basically introduced, through artificial intelligence, an entirely

752
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 3: new means of traumatizing and harming people and having new victims,

753
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: which is just ridiculous. Last thing I'll say about this.

754
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 3: I was trying to think about, like, maybe porn one

755
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 3: point oh was when there was magazines and videos and

756
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 3: hotel rooms. Porn two point oh is maybe when it's

757
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 3: available on the internet. Porn three point oh might be

758
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 3: the introduction of like social media porn four point zero

759
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 3: is like virtual reality and artificial intelligence, because now they

760
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 3: have what it's called like gonzo porn, that it's done

761
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 3: in a way that it's like you are a part

762
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 3: of this and participating in it, not just viewing it.

763
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: You're a part of it.

764
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 3: So it says you won't just watch, but you become

765
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 3: the actor itself.

766
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: And with artificial intelligence.

767
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 3: We talked about this a couple of weeks ago online

768
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 3: about how you can just plug in and create porn

769
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 3: now through sites with your own ideas. So now people

770
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 3: aren't only actors. Now people are creating. That's a whole

771
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 3: new level of brokenness. I don't even know what that's

772
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 3: going to mean for the future.

773
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: It doesn't take studios in the San Fernando Valley, it

774
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: doesn't it to produce this, you know. And that's why

775
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 2: this user generated content is I think a major step,

776
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 2: you know, to step toward more extreme stuff and step

777
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: toward nonconsensual stuff.

778
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 3: And it also creates a kind of addiction to artificially

779
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 3: intelligent created porn. It's just blurring reality and fiction.

780
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,919
Speaker 2: All right, we got time for one more question here,

781
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: all right, what do we do about this?

782
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: I would say a few things. They so two things.

783
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 3: One is they get an example here of people calling

784
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 3: out a certain porn website and a lady who's an

785
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 3: activist drawing attention to the number of videos that were

786
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 3: loaded that were not carefully vetted and had like child sex.

787
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: Abuse and pedophilia, and.

788
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 3: In turn, certain credit card companies stopped to working with them.

789
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 3: I think there's an increased role for shame. Shame on

790
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 3: these people. I'd love any of them. If you call me,

791
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 3: I'll talk to you. I want you to look me

792
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 3: in the eyes and say, the porn you create in

793
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: these sites, you'd be okay with your daughter and your

794
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 3: wife and your granddaughter being a part of it. Wook

795
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 3: me in the eyes and tell me that if not,

796
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 3: shame on you. Because everybody who's on this site is

797
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 3: somebody's daughter. Everybody who's on this site is somebody's grandson.

798
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 3: So I think there's a role for shame, and this

799
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 3: book made me a little bit more bold.

800
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: I'm just going to call it out. Shame on them.

801
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 3: Second, talk to your kids early and build relationships with them.

802
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 3: Talk to them, talk to them, talk to them. The

803
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 3: number one way kids are learning about porn, I'm sorry,

804
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 3: learn about sex, is thro porn, talk to your kids early.

805
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: Here here, John, this is uh. I don't know. I

806
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: don't know if I can recommend the book to everybody.

807
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 2: I agree, it's it's not for everybody. It's not for

808
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: the faint of heart. On this it was it has

809
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 2: been quite an education for you and me. But I

810
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: admit it was. It was a really tough read and

811
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: I'm still not quite recovered from it.

812
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: I agree, and I kind of hope I don't have

813
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: to read another book like this, But I feel like

814
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 3: our viewers.

815
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: And I think we have and I think we have

816
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: an obligation to do that. Yeah, but this is I

817
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: just say, you know, I don't mind making one for

818
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 2: the team, but reading this was, this was taking a

819
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: fastball to the ribs for the team. So for for

820
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 2: our viewers and listeners, I hope you found this helpful.

821
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: I hope you haven't found it defensive or off putting.

822
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: We've just tried to represent reality here. But you need

823
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: to know what the depth of the industry is and

824
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 2: how it's impacting adolescents, young people, how it's impacting the

825
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 2: way our brains get rewired. This is all stuff that

826
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 2: I think most people who are you know who are

827
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: maybe casual excuse me, casual viewers of porn. I'm not

828
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: sure they've thought about so we we we we hope

829
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 2: this has been helpful for you. Uh, this was this

830
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:47,919
Speaker 2: was a hard episode to do.

831
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 1: I agree.

832
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: So anyway, I think that that's that's enough on this one.

833
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: Enough said.

834
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 2: All right, we'll see you next time.

835
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 3: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

836
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

837
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 3: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge

838
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

839
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

840
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show,

841
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 3: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

842
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 3: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

843
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 3: spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more.

844
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 3: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach,

845
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 3: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

846
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 3: you when the next episode drops.