1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Life audio. 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: The real Jesus fields our trauma and hearty and anguish 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 2: more acutely than we do. Has no one ever told 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 2: you there's an actual Savior with nail scarred arms. We 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: think he's holding his nose when they approach you. No, 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: he's not holding his nose. His arms are wide stretch, 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: just as they were on that cross. 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: Why do we so often take the wrong view of. 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 2: The character of Jesus. 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the March or Die Show today. 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: Very glad to have you joining us once again. This 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: is the show where we do our best to give 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: you both the principles and perspectives you need to march 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: when it would be easier to stay where you are 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: and die. My name is Jeremy Stallniker. I am your 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: host today, and you probably notice I'm at my home studio, 17 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: so I'm not in studio, so Shan's not with us today. 18 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: But I really appreciate you joining us and excited about 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: the conversation. Very very honored to have the guest on 20 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: that we do, which I'll introduce here in just a second, 21 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: and man, really looking forward to talking to him more 22 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: than anything. Looking forward to having you be introduced to him. 23 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: If you are not already and to hear this conversation, 24 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: it will be very very helpful. Of course, as I 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: mentioned every episode, if you have not yet subscribed to 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: the show, please do it. Don't wait till later, do 27 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: it right now. Wherever you're listening from, go ahead and subscribe. 28 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: That would be fantastic. Take some time, go over to 29 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: the YouTube channel. A lot of good content there. And 30 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: we've been talking about this for many, many months, but 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: we have finally launched our Men of Action platform and 32 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: you can look for that Men of Action and that 33 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: has content, teaching content, Bible studies, other great content for 34 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: men primarily. If you're lady, you can go there as well, 35 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: but directed at men primarily, and a lot of that 36 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: revolves around our YouTube presence. Check us out on YouTube, 37 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: and that would be fantastic. All right, without further ado, 38 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: I can talk forever without further ado. We're going to 39 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: get to our guest today and I'm very very honored 40 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: to have on with me. I'm looking at his book 41 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: right here, Dane Ortland. Dane is a pastor. He's a theologian. 42 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: I'm currently pastoring in Naperville, Illinois. I think that's right, Naperville, Illinois. 43 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: But what got my attention, and I was aware of 44 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: Dane's ministry and his writing ministry in particular, but what 45 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: got my attention was this book that I'm holding but 46 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: you can't see if you're listening, but I'm holding it 47 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: up gentle and lowly, and I was telling Dane the 48 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: story just a little bit. But in the world that 49 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: I come from, we, of course, if you listen to 50 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: the show, you know that through the Mighty Oaks Foundation, 51 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: we work with veterans, service members, first responders, and families, 52 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: and so many men and women who come to us 53 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: either don't have an established view of God or they 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: have a very skewed view of God. 55 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: And I've said this before. 56 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: Many who will come to one of our programs, they 57 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: would tell you, and what this means exactly, I'm not sure, 58 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: but they would tell you, I hate God. God has 59 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: let me down. Or I was raised as a Christian, 60 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: I was raised around people of faith, but I don't 61 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: know what I believe anymore, And so really trying to 62 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: understand this. And then for those that work in the 63 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: communities that we serve, whether it's in the first responder 64 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: world or the military world, trying to contextualize the Jesus 65 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: of the Gospels that so many portray as different than 66 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: the God of the Old Testament, and trying to understand 67 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: how can I be that person I need to be 68 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: at work and that person I need to be in 69 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: uniform while also ascribing to the Jesus I've been taught 70 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: is the Jesus of the New Testament. So that was 71 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: a really long introduction just to say Dane is here 72 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: to help us work through that. Dane, thank you so 73 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: much for your time and really honored to have you on. 74 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: It is my honor, Jeremy. I love what you are 75 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: about and with the podcast and the broader ministry, so 76 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: thank you for all that you are doing. And it's 77 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: a yeah, it's a joy to speak with you today. 78 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: Well, yes, sir, a mutual friend kind of connected us, 79 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: and I was super grateful that he did. But man, 80 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: I could start probably anywhere, but let's just kind of 81 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: start at the beginning, if you would, Just for those 82 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: that aren't aware of you, aren't familiar with you, could 83 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: you share your kind of your backstory, if you will, 84 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: your faith journey. I know that really you've been pastoring 85 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: for a while, but the majority of your adult life 86 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: was not necessarily a pastoral ministry. Can you talk about 87 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: where you are and kind of how you got here? 88 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: Yeah? Thanks. Jeremy live in Naperville, Illinois, outside Chicago with 89 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: my wife and five kids, four boys and a girl, 90 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 2: ages nineteen down to ten, and I've been in this 91 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: role six almost six years, as you mentioned, so not 92 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 2: a real long time. Before that, spent ten years in 93 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: nonprofit publishing for a group called Crossway up in Wheaton. 94 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: I've been doing something with the Bible, one way or 95 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: the other pretty much my whole life, though. I grew 96 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 2: up in the home of a pastor and a seminary professor. 97 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: My dad the greatest guy I have ever known, bar none, 98 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: and both my dad and my mom have indelibly marked me. 99 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 2: No parent is perfect, but they were awesome. I'm so 100 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: thankful for them. I grew up the third of four 101 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: and knew early on I wanted to do something something 102 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: with my life around the Word of God and ministry 103 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: kinds of things, and that took kind of a stranger route. 104 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: I went off to what And College, did a Bible degree, 105 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: and wound up doing some teaching on the East Coast 106 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 2: in a k through twelve Christian school and coaching, and 107 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: then wound up going off to seminary and grad school 108 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: and learn more about the Bible. All of that was 109 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: in my mind preparing me for pastoral ministry. And I 110 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: tried to do that at the end of all my schooling, 111 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: and no one would hire me. So I don't know 112 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: what to do, And I wound up parish shooting into 113 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: this little wonderful nonprofit called Crossway. Spent a decade there, 114 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: loved it, love love, loved it, and so it was wonderful, 115 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 2: meaningful work on the one hand, and on the other hand, 116 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: in some ways that I can begin to see now, 117 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: it was preparing and incubating me for pressing eject on 118 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: my Crossway cockpit and parachuting into the pastorate, which I 119 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: did six years ago. So I love the Lord Jesus Christ. 120 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: I love the Bible. I love discipleship, I love preaching, 121 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: I love honesty. I love walking with men. So this 122 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: conversation we're sharing in together today is right up my alley. 123 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: That's awesome. 124 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: It's I always enjoy starting there hearing kind of the 125 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: story and how'd you get to where you are? Because 126 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: it's never what we think right, I mean no, I 127 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: remember I remember telling people, you know, I was in 128 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: the Marine Corps as a Marine ifty officer. I served 129 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: in Iraq, left the Marine Corps, went into ministry. 130 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: That's a whole story. 131 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: And I struggled through a lot of that and ended 132 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: up pastoring. And I was in pastoral ministry for about 133 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: twelve years. But I went from serving in the Marine 134 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: Corps to pastoring a church in the San Francisco Bay area. 135 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: And for those that are listening, the San Francisco area 136 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: is wonderful. Not a lot of veterans, not a huge 137 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: military presence. And I remember asking God, like, what was 138 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: that about? We just can we have skipped the whole 139 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: military thing and gone right to this or whatever. But man, 140 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, God uses all these pieces. And now 141 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, obviously what I'm doing now is it's the 142 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: two integrated. And God knew that, and God had a plan. 143 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: And it's hard to be patient to see God's plan 144 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: unfolding our lives sometimes, but I love it. 145 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: It is, and I think for you and me and 146 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: so many of us. The life of Moses's major encouragement 147 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: forty years in the court of Pharaoh, thinking he was 148 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: somebody Yeah, forty years in the desert thinking he's thinking 149 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: he was nobody, and then his last forty years God 150 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: using the first eighty years to actually use him to 151 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: be somebody. Yeah, so that's hope for all of us. 152 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: Aren't we glad that God doesn't make us wait eighty years? 153 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: Most of that. 154 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure i'd make it, but that's another podcast 155 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: for another day. 156 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 157 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: God, God uses those experiences, and it's so helpful to 158 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: be able to kind of ground yourself in that. I 159 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: don't know why this is happening, why I'm working through this, 160 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: but I know God has a plan. Man, a lot 161 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: of things I want to talk to you, but I 162 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: do want to get specifically this passage Matthew chapter eleven. 163 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: And so many people who are Christians that are listening. 164 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: If you've been around church, probably for more than a 165 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: month or two, you've heard this passage. You've at least 166 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: heard it it paraphrased, because a lot of people will 167 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: use this kind of as just like like good advice. Right, 168 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: you need to have a relationship with God because the 169 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: burden of the world or the burden of these other 170 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: systems is so heavy, and that comes from a wonderful 171 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: teaching Matthew, Chapter eleven. I'll read the verses and then 172 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: I want to ask you how your attention was drawn 173 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: so intently to these and particularly twenty nine. So I'll 174 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: read the passage just for those that aren't familiar. And 175 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm reading out of the King James. So you know 176 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: I'd memorized every names. I memorize everything in the King James. 177 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: This is where I am. This is who I am now. 178 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: So I know you are on the board for the 179 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: ESV and you can go any direction you want, but 180 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read this Out of the King James. I 181 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: have a highlighted here on my phone. Good Matthew, Chapter eleven, 182 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: verses twenty eight and twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty nine 183 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: to thirty, first number twenty eight. Coming to me, all 184 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: you that labor and are heavy laiden, and I will 185 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn 186 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, 187 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: and you shall find rest under your souls, for my 188 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: yoke is easy and my burden is light. And even 189 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: if that's just good advice, man, that's good advice, and 190 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: the context of that, it's it's unbelievable as God looks 191 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: away from the religious leaders that are standing there and 192 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: looks to the people that have been overwhelmed with the 193 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: burden of religiosity and helps them to see there's a 194 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: new way. But man, it's so much deeper than just 195 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: good advice, and and it really does help us to 196 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: see God in I think you've said this, and I 197 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: agree with you in the right light. And that's the 198 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: part of this passage most of us skip right over. 199 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: I'll start there. Why this passage? Why did it get 200 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: get a hold of your heart and mind? 201 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: Thanks? Brother, I agree, Jeremy. It is good advice. But 202 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: if it were as you just said, if it were 203 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: only advice, I quit sure. It's not only advice, but 204 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: good news. I mean, advice would be here's what I'm 205 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: telling you to go do. But he's saying, here, come 206 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: to me, and I have something for you, not just 207 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: telling you what to do. And this is uh, I mean, 208 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: let's let's take this conversation however you want to take it. 209 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: The first thing I'll say is, this is only one 210 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: of many things that the Lord Jesus says. So what 211 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: we don't want to do is collapse a complex savior 212 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 2: down into being a one dimensional savior, so we can 213 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: talk about the other the other aspects. I mean, Revelation 214 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 2: five says he's a lion and a lamb. This is 215 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 2: the lamb side of Jesus Christ. It's not the only 216 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 2: side to them, but wonder of wonders, it is the 217 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: only place, and your British preacher Charles Spurgeon points this out, 218 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: it's the only place Jesus ever tells us what his 219 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: heart is. And that's very important because the heart is 220 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: not a lot of times in the Church today in 221 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: the West, we speak of the heart as our feelings 222 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: and then our head as what we think. That's not 223 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: the way of the Bible talks both Old Testament and 224 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: You talk about the heart as your as your animating 225 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 2: engine of motivation. It's it's the headquart it's what you 226 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: daydream about. It's why you do what you do. It's 227 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: it's it's what is impelling you to to march rather 228 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: than die in your categories, that's what your heart is. 229 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: So in the Bible, the heart, yeah, it does feel, 230 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 2: but it also thinks, It worships, it decides, it chooses, 231 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: it loves, and when Jesus tells us what animates him 232 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: at bottom, open up your chest, cave to us, Jesus, 233 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: what is making you tick down? In there? The one 234 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: place he talks about it, he says, it's gentleness, meek 235 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: and lowly, as your KJV puts it. I love that 236 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: just as much. It's meek lowliness, and it's accessibility, it's approachability, 237 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: it's non harsh handling of sinning sufferers like you and me. 238 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: So to get to your question, what pushed me there 239 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 2: was reading a book written by an obscure pastor four 240 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 2: hundred years ago by the name of Thomas Goodwin. Really 241 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: weird guy. He'd walk around with multiple nightcaps in the 242 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: middle of the daytime, multiple nightcaps on his head, around 243 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 2: the campus of Oxford. So not a this is not 244 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: a socially impressed of God. He was godly and he 245 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 2: was a genius. And he wrote a book about this theme. 246 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: And I read that book called The Heart of Christ, 247 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: who Is in Heaven for Sinners who are on Earth 248 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen, early twenty thirteen, and I still have 249 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: not picked myself up off the ground. Jeremy, I didn't 250 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 2: know you could talk about Jesus like that. I mean, 251 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 2: it's there in the scripture, and there's other passages too 252 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: we go to. But to talk to talk about Jesus 253 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 2: based on passages like this in the following way, and 254 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: then I'll be quiet. You can take this any way 255 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: you want to talk about Jesus like this, where we 256 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: as his brothers and sisters, Jesus is our older brother, 257 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: Where we as his younger brothers and sisters, are most 258 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 2: defeated right now, most ashamed, guilty, and stuck. That is 259 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 2: where he loves us the most. That is where his 260 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: heart goes out to us the most, without in any 261 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: way sanctioning or condoning sin. That's where his heart, I mean, 262 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: Goodwin says, throbs most strongly for us. And so this 263 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: was a Christ that I just was not. That was 264 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: not the Jesus I thought was there. And so it 265 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: was Goodwin who pushed me to that passage originally. 266 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: Why do we so often take the wrong view of 267 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: the character of Jesus. Why is it that we struggle 268 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: so much with that? Because we do, We're all over 269 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: the map, and it seems to be I don't know 270 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: if it's a person's predisposition, their background, their upbringing. I 271 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but we seem to take 272 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: Jesus and put him into whatever box we want him 273 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: to be in, instead of letting scripture explain to us 274 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: who he is and what his character is about. Why 275 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: do we struggle so much to come to that place? 276 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: Why is it a four hundred year old book? I 277 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: guess is the question. Why isn't this every book written 278 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: about Jesus? That breaks this down for us? 279 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: Well? C. S. Lewis said the only way to He said, 280 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: there are two ways to understand your blind spots and 281 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: how you think about God and Christ. Way number one, 282 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: create a time machine, get into it, go four hundred 283 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: years into the future and see how they're talking about Jesus. 284 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: We haven't figured out how to do that yet that 285 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: I'm aware of. Way number two, get into a time 286 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: machine and go four hundred years into the past. We 287 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: can do that. It's called going to the library, is 288 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: called opening up an old book, and then you see 289 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: what they're saying and it exposes, Oh wow, we don't 290 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: talk like this today. So that's one answer to come 291 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: to your question, why do we get this wrong? Several thoughts. 292 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: Thought number one, I have no idea. I don't know 293 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: I don't know thought number two because we're sinners. Because 294 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: we're sinners at every level, including in our mind. And 295 00:15:53,400 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: one manifestation of that fallenness of mind is we create 296 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: a God and a Christ that we intuitively think he 297 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: is like what he is like based on what we assume, 298 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: and into it reflexively apart from a Bible, and then 299 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: we go to a Bible and to a local church 300 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: to reinforce what we already naturally believe and I believe, 301 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: among other things, Jeremy, the Christian journey is the lifelong 302 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: journey in insisting that a Bible, and not my weird 303 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: ideas a Bible be it KJV or ESV is going 304 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: to tell me what they are, what the Triune God 305 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: is like, tearing down what I naturally think he is like, 306 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: and replacing my assumptions with what he's actually like. In 307 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: other words, we tend to we tend to pre We 308 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: tend to think of God in Christ as a bigger, 309 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: better version of us. And I am not like Matthew 310 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: eleven twenty eight to thirty. I'm the photo negative of that. 311 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: I and so I too. I mean, I had a 312 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 2: great upbringing. I had a great upbringing and I'm doing 313 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: the same mistake. I'm going to roll out of bed 314 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 2: tomorrow morning and I will have diluted and blunted and diminished, decaffeinated, 315 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: domesticated views of God in Christ. And so tomorrow morning, 316 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: I'm going to get my coffee and I'm going to 317 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: get my Bible, and I'm going to become a Christian again, 318 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: so to speak. And I'm going to let the scripture 319 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: tell me what God is like. That's a long way 320 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 2: of saying, I don't know why we're so weird that 321 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: we do this. It is clearly empirically true. We do it. 322 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 2: I do it. And one reason I'm a pastor is 323 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: I just want to help my people see what He 324 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 2: is actually like. Yeah, that's good. 325 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: One of the things that you've written on you've on 326 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: it and speak about that's been very helpful to me 327 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: is the explanation that this Jesus, this gentle and lowly Jesus, 328 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: this meek Jesus, the description that we have here, it 329 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: is not a different person than the God of the 330 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: Old Testament. 331 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: Ah man. 332 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: And I think this is where at least a lot 333 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: of the people that you know, again I talk to, 334 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: it's they're either God of the Old Testament. So I'm 335 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: afraid that he's going to blow me up if I 336 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: take a step the wrong direction, or I can't ascribe 337 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: to this not meek but weak Jesus of the New Testament. Yeah, 338 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: and you've done such a great job of helping me. 339 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I understood this from reading, but 340 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: you put it in such a great term, great terms, 341 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: that the God of the New Testament and the God 342 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: of the Old Testament are not different people. And this 343 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: is critical for so many reasons. One is that because 344 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: now some mainstream evangelical preachers are saying things like we 345 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: need to just stop sending people with the Old Testament. 346 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: It scares them, that God scares them. We need to 347 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: stick to the New Testament. Can you run down that 348 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: a little bit. 349 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 2: That's terrible advice. Ye, it's not good advice. 350 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: It's not good advice. It's not the advice God would 351 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: give us either, I don't think no. 352 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: And it's not the advice Jesus would give us because 353 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: every point he himself is quoting an appealing to the 354 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 2: Old Testament. So yes, a couple of thoughts. One, no 355 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: one ever talked about hell in God's wrath more than 356 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. In Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Punishment in 357 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 2: the Old Testament tended to be cast as earthly calamity, disease, sickness, 358 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: death by invading armies. Punishment in the New Testament, in 359 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: the words of Jesus, is hell, where their worm does 360 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: not die and the fire is not quenched. Why do 361 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 2: we think of the Old Testament God as harsher than 362 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: the New because earthly calamity is more real to us, 363 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: apparently than eternal hellish calamity, though that is far worse. 364 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: Hell is not real to us. Therefore, we read the 365 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 2: punishments of the Old Testaments as apparently reflecting a grumpy 366 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: or God or something like that. So that's thought number one. 367 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 2: Thought number two is Hebrews one three, Jesus is the 368 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 2: exact representation of God. Colautionans one fifteen to twenty says 369 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 2: the same thing. In John fourteen, Philip says, hey, Jesus, 370 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: and he's been at the end of the three years 371 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: of christ misery the disciples. Philip says, hey, Jesus, could 372 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 2: you please show us the Father? That's all, And then 373 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: he says, and that'll be enough. One last, one last request, 374 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: could you just show us the Father? And Christ says, 375 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: have I been with you so long and you still 376 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 2: don't know me? If you've seen me, you have seen 377 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 2: the Father. What that means is Jesus is not one 378 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 2: slice of God, the Father like he's the love and 379 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 2: compassion of God, the Father, leaving behind the wrath and 380 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: anger and justice at all. Jesus is the perfect incarnate 381 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: embodied in fleshed human form of that God in a 382 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 2: comprehensive and complete way of the Old Testament. Thought number two. 383 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: Thought number three is you do not, Ah, You do 384 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: not need to wait for the New Testament to get 385 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: an effusively compassionate God. He's already there in the Old Testament. 386 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: The key, the paradigmatic, the key revelation of God in 387 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: the Old Testament his Exodus thirty four when God sticks 388 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: Moses in the rock, because Moses is going to melt 389 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: down get incinerated if he looks God in the face 390 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: and he says, I'm going to pass by you, and 391 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: he passed. God passes by Moses and says the Lord, 392 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: the Lord of God, and the first thing out of 393 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: his mouth are a God merciful and compassion slow to anger, 394 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 2: he goes on to say, and I'm going to visit 395 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 2: the iniquity of the children to the third and fourth generation. 396 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 2: But he also says, I'm going to bring blessing to 397 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: the thousandth generation. So he's that kind of God there is. 398 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: Does he bring wrath? Yes, at a proportion of three 399 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: or four to one thousand. That's what God is like. 400 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: And there are many other texts we could go to 401 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: in Isaiah and Jeremiah and Hoseiah and the Psalms. Really 402 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 2: every one of the minor prophets ends on a point 403 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: where God's mercy wins out over God's deserve justice to 404 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: his people. His mercy wins out. That's the ringing note 405 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 2: of every one of the minor prophets. So Jesus shows up, 406 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 2: and he is the Old Testament God walking around on 407 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: two legs in the Middle East in every way. And 408 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,719 Speaker 2: so I just I encourage and exhort our listeners. You 409 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 2: don't need to wait, You don't need to wait for 410 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: the New Testament to have a God that you can 411 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: approach and that do we tremble before him? Sure, But 412 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 2: we also tremble before Jesus. In Revelation six when he 413 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: the wrath of the Lamb. The rulers of the earth 414 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: in Revelation six, at the end of all things ask 415 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 2: the cliffs to fall on them and crush them rather 416 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: than they face the wrath of the Lamb. So it's 417 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: there is fearsomeness and justice and wrath and overwhelming mercy 418 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 2: and compassion in both the Old Testament God and the New. Yeah, 419 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: that's good. 420 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: I've heard you say that. An easy way to think 421 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: about this, or any way to think about this, is 422 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: that the default for Jesus is gentle and lowly, where 423 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: the default for us is anger, and it's acting out 424 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: of that. And so we do see the wrath of God. 425 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: We do see Jesus throwing tables over, we see those 426 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: things happening, But the default for Jesus is not that 427 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 1: it's gentle and live. 428 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: Well, my friend was it water Drew, one of my 429 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 2: hemates here, pointed out to me that throughout the Old 430 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: Testament you have this phrase. Throughout the Old Testament, you 431 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: have this phrase provoked to anger. I think forty forty 432 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 2: two times throughout especially Kings and Deuteronomy and a couple 433 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: of the major prophets, God is provoked to anger. And 434 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: so someone says, well, there you go. There's a guy 435 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: God who's just spring loaded to be, you know, to 436 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: nail us hang in a minute, provoked. His anger requires provocation. 437 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: That's worth noticing. He's provoked to anger up alongside the 438 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 2: excuse me, the observation. Nowhere are we told that he 439 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: has provoked to love, or provoked to mercy, or provoked 440 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: to compassion. Provocation provoked. So like if one of my 441 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: kids comes up and is being real annoying and irritating 442 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: to me, and I'm trying to focus on something and 443 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 2: they just keep doing it, and keep doing it, keep 444 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 2: doing it. Okay, at some point I'm going to be 445 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 2: provoked to irritation or provoked a snap at them, all right, 446 00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 2: But because it takes provocation, that's what anger is, like 447 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: like it you what, but another But what comes out 448 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: of him most naturally, what he is, what he is 449 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: I can't this is irreverent, but what he's hardwired to be. 450 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 2: Like that's not a great way to speak about God, 451 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: but it's the way the prophets speak about him when 452 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 2: they speak of mercy being his natural work, and judgment 453 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: is strange work. Mercy gushes out at the slightest prick, 454 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 2: anger and wrath builds up over time in him. That's 455 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 2: how the Bible talks. And so I just very much 456 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 2: agree with what you were just saying. 457 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to preach at my home church 458 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: this weekend and our church weren't as seriously the Book 459 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: of Ephesians, and so I was given the assignment if 460 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: you will preach Ephesians chapter two, verses one through ten, 461 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: which if I could pick a passage, that's the one, right, 462 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: just so happened. It was great. But as I was 463 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: studying for that and then you know, communicating that this weekend, 464 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: I thought of that the default because the first three 465 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: verses are we're born in. 466 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 2: Our trespasses and sins. We're born in wickedness. 467 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: We're driven by our lusts and the. 468 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: Spirit of the age. 469 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: And the rulers of darkness, right like this is the 470 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: first three verses. But God, because of his love, it's 471 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: his love that compelled him to do the things we 472 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: find in eight and nine, or by grace or you 473 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: say it through faith. And I don't know how many 474 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: times I've read that passage and haven't stopped long enough 475 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: to connect love to grace and mercy. That's his default. 476 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: His default is. 477 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 2: He loves us, he cares for us. 478 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: I mean we see that throughout certainly the New Testament, 479 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: and that caused him to do something, And we don't 480 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: often think about why did it cause him to do something, 481 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: because that's his character. It was flowing from the character 482 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: of who he is. 483 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, Jonathan Edwards speaks of God as an inherently, eternally 484 00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 2: and endlessly out flowing fountain of love. He said, an 485 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: ocean of love without shores or bottom. So I think 486 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: we think of I mean again, it's it's thinking of 487 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: putting God in our own image. What is it like 488 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: for me to love? Uh, it's not really that natural. 489 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 2: It is not. I think it's becoming more natural. I 490 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 2: hope it is. With my family is really most natural. 491 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: But even with them, whereas God is he he is 492 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 2: uncontainable love. The reason the world exists is that his 493 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 2: love spilled out and wanted a creation to be swept 494 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: up into the love of the tryne God, not to 495 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: meet some need in him. But just because love is 496 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: is a is inherently contagious, It has a it has 497 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: a spreading nature, and so so amen, h. 498 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: It seems that we're most of us are either wired 499 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: more for mercy or more for law. We want we 500 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: want we want the wrath of God because we think that, 501 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, that's justice or something, and so we really 502 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: love that. And the Bible speaks of God's justice and 503 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, all those things that we could talk about 504 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: kind of Old Testament. But then there are others that say, no, 505 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: God is merciful and God is loving and God is kind. 506 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: How do you how do you communicate to someone on 507 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: either end of that that God is both of those 508 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: things at the same time. I know we've already talked 509 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: about it, but for someone that's struggling with this personally, 510 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: this isn't you know, conceptually, it's I'm struggling with this personally. 511 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: I want the justice of God. I want God to 512 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: straighten things out. I'm a little bit afraid of God. 513 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you? How do you bring it all together? 514 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: I guess in a practical way, which is is not 515 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: the right way to ask that question. 516 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 2: But how do I live that? 517 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: How do I live this this understanding out? 518 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: Well? I don't know, man, I'm trying to figure that out. 519 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: That's the next book you to answer that question. I 520 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: would need to sit with that person for a couple 521 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: hours and try to get, you know, do some soul surgery, 522 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: like who are you? You know what, tell me about 523 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: what you experienced when you were seven? You know, did 524 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: your dad hug you or not? And a hundred other questions, 525 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: but sort of just to keep it at an abstract level, 526 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: which is all I can. If I'm not talking to 527 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: an actual person in a counseling situation, I would say 528 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: God is not. The scripture does not present God as 529 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: if mercy is on is one extreme end on a 530 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: spectrum and justice is the other extreme end of a spectrum. 531 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: The scripture does not present God as right in the middle, 532 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: splitting the difference. And so let's not kind of go 533 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: too much one way or the other. Rather, God is 534 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: both ends of the spectrum. He's one end of the 535 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: spectrum folded over onto the other end, which is just 536 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: Theologians and philosophers say that God is simple, divine, simplicity. 537 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: All they mean is anything that God is. He is 538 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: fully and holly in one hundred percent. So he's not 539 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: like a pie and like there's a slice of the 540 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 2: pot the God pie that's love and another slice that's wrath. 541 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: And then a really big slice that's compassion, and another 542 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: slice that's this. No, everything that God is, he is 543 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: the entire pie. That's another irreverent way of speaking. But 544 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: so God is simple, so we don't want to try 545 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: to And you weren't doing this, Jeremy. But I'm just 546 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: some some Christians think this way, like like God is 547 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: sort of the sum total of all his attributes. No, 548 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: every attribute that he is, he is one hundred percent. 549 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 2: Now what you asked was not so much about God, 550 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: but people, Okay, what if there's a person, And this 551 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: is a profound question, this is an urgent pastoral question 552 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 2: for all of us. What if there's a person and 553 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: you said, you said, and I'm tracking with you. Some 554 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 2: lean more sort of with an impulse, or it appeals 555 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: more to them the mercy side of God, and others 556 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 2: are more like, no, you know, I want to see 557 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: God's judgment come, I want to see justice come, and 558 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: so on. I would say that, actually this might sound weird. 559 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: I would say, at this point in my development, here 560 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: is my answer, and I'm so growing as we all are. 561 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 2: The answer to both kinds of person is the same thing. 562 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: I don't think really a different medicine from God's medicine cabinet, 563 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 2: A different medicine is needed for them. Maybe at some 564 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 2: level that's true. I think the real Jesus, I think 565 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 2: the real Jesus Christ is the answer for both of them. 566 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 2: For example, just an example, A lot of times, the 567 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: person who says the legalistic person, the person who wants 568 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: God's law, emphasize the person who is very dutiful. You know, 569 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: they are updoing their quiet times at five am every day, 570 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: and they're kind of self righteous about it and everything else. Okay, 571 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: deep down they don't. They don't really believe that God 572 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,479 Speaker 2: embraces and welcomes them utterly apart from how they are 573 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: performing spiritually, and therefore they're trying. They're on this treadmill, 574 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: this hamster wheel of performance. And they would deny that theologically, 575 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 2: but functionally, in psychologically, that's what's going on in the inside. Well, 576 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: that's the exact same malady. That's the same psychology at 577 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 2: root of the person who says I just need God's mercy, 578 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: I need his grace. It's actually the same thing going 579 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: on in the inside. What I'm saying is, I think 580 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: all of us it might manifest itself in different ways. 581 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: But I believe that all of us are operating in 582 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 2: some species of gospel deficit, and that at the end 583 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: of the day, it is Jesus Christ, the real Jesus, 584 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 2: the lion and lamb, Jesus, the general and lowly Christ, 585 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: and the Christ who in the previous paragraphs in Matthew 586 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: eleven is walking around pronouncing woes and w and the 587 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: Bible means go to hell. Okay, this is not you 588 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: need to improve. That's what a woe is is you 589 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: are on your way to hell, and you should be 590 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: going to hell if you don't repent. That's what that means. 591 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: So both sides of this Christ, a real Christ, the 592 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 2: biblical Christ, is the medicine for all of us wherever 593 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: we are going haywire in how we're thinking about him. 594 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: That's good. 595 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: Last question, and I'll give you a kind of a scenario. 596 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: And this is something that again in the context of 597 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: what we do, we deal with often and so it's 598 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: very simple, not something you haven't you know, had this 599 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: conversation probably a thousand times. But through the work that 600 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: we do, men and women attend our programs. We have 601 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: programs that serve as I mentioned, veteran service members, first responders, 602 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: So folks that have done very difficult world work, many 603 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: of them are dealing with trauma because of their work. 604 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: Often it's trauma that happened, you know, much prior to 605 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: them ever putting on a uniform, but they brought it 606 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: into military service or the first responder world, and so 607 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: they're struggling through that. And on the other side of that, 608 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: they sometimes trying to deal with that and make bad decisions, 609 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: and that leads to you know, any number of life 610 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: issues and situations. Clinical care is available to all of 611 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: those folks, and you know, I don't discourage that, but 612 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: we're not that. We're a faith focused or faith based program, 613 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,439 Speaker 1: meaning we approach all of those issues from starting with God, 614 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: the Creator and create. Creation has purpose and design, and 615 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: it is finding our identity in Christ that allows us 616 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,479 Speaker 1: to have a relationship with God and it allows us, 617 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: in spite of what's happened, to move forward. So that's 618 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: who we are. So we end up with folks who 619 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: often have tried everything else. They've tried medication, they've tried 620 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: the clinical you know, therapies and approaches and interventions. Some 621 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: of them have been helpful, but not healing. The folks 622 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: who attend our programs often are there not because they 623 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: have any particular thought about God. They don't care about, 624 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, any of the things that we would say 625 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: are very important. But they've tried everything else, they've been 626 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: everywhere else, they have nowhere else to go, and so 627 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: they're willing to listen to people who have been down 628 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: the same road and found what they haven't been able 629 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: to find yet. 630 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 2: And so. 631 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: I mean a thousand times a year, more than a 632 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: thousand times a year, we will one of our folks 633 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: will sit across the table from someone who says, I've 634 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: tried everything, I have nowhere else to go. I'm absolutely broken. 635 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: If this doesn't work, this meaning whatever you're going to 636 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: tell me this week. If this doesn't work, then I'm 637 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: not going to make it. And for a lot of 638 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: folks that means, you know, I'm gonna give up. So 639 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: we're going to approach that with Jesus is the answer. Now, 640 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: we'll walk our way there. But what do you say 641 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: to that person that says, I'm absolutely broken, I have 642 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: nowhere else to go. How can this Jesus that you're 643 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,240 Speaker 1: talking about, How can picture of a gentle and lowly Jesus. 644 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: How can that guy again not to be disrespectful, but 645 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: how can that Jesus be the answer to what I've 646 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: been struggling through for you know, sometimes decades. 647 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 2: Oh my wow. Well, I have never served in a 648 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 2: military way, and without going into detail right now, I 649 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 2: can relate actually from the inside to some of the 650 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: kinds of trauma that you have spoken to people about. 651 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 2: I'll just say that number one. Number two, what do 652 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 2: I say to such a person? I say to them, 653 00:36:50,040 --> 00:37:00,959 Speaker 2: Number one, I am so sorry. I am so so sorry. 654 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: My greatest tool. I'm sitting in my office here at 655 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: the church, and I got a ton of books, and 656 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 2: I love books. I can't imagine do your ministry without books. 657 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: But if I've learned anything in my first six years 658 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 2: of pastoral ministry, Jeremy, it is that the greatest tool 659 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 2: in my ministry is not my books, but my tears. 660 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: So the first thing I want to say is I 661 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 2: am so sorry, and I want to communicate in any 662 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 2: way that I can without being weird or fake about it, 663 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 2: but really feeling it with them. I want to communicate 664 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 2: my solidarity, my solidarity. Number two, I look them in 665 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: the eye and I say to them do you know 666 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 2: you are the glory of God. You and not a 667 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 2: bald eagle, are the glory of God on this earth. 668 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 2: The image of God means the glory of gods. These 669 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 2: eleven man is the image and glory of God. Image 670 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 2: and glory are synonyms in the New Testament. You are royalty. 671 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 2: In the Ancient Earies context, only the king, like the 672 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 2: Mesopotamia or Babylonian king, was the image of God, and 673 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 2: all the rest of the people were not. And then 674 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 2: Genesis one and two come along. They say, Adam and 675 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 2: Eve and all of their descendants are the image of God. 676 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: What they're saying is every one of you, as a 677 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 2: human being is a king or queen. So that person 678 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 2: who is terribly abused as a child, that person who 679 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 2: was ridiculed for this, or that person who suffered such 680 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 2: unspeakable things, either at the hands of others or because 681 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 2: of their own stupidity and fault, that person is royalty. 682 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: And I want that person to know. You stick your 683 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 2: chest out and you hold your head high, because the 684 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 2: Bible says you are regal. You are a king and 685 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 2: a queen, a scarred king or queen. But you are 686 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 2: a king or queen number two, number three, I say 687 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 2: to them again, it's case by case, but sure talk Theoretically, 688 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 2: I would want to say to them, Jesus is not 689 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 2: like the force in Star Wars. He is not a power, 690 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 2: a nebulous, ambiguous, ungrabbable power out there. Jesus Christ. So 691 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 2: many Christians have not actually settled this. Jesus Christ, Jeremy 692 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 2: is an actual person who's actually there. He put on 693 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 2: a body. He's in heaven with a body. He's never 694 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 2: going to take his body off. He didn't go back 695 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 2: to being pre incarnate when he has a body. Right now, 696 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 2: he's going to come back with He has a body. 697 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 2: And when we die and go to heaven, if we 698 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 2: die and go to heaven before he returns, we not 699 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 2: of a body, and we will commune with him, but 700 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 2: we will not be able to hug him. But one 701 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: day he will come to earth again and we will 702 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 2: be given a body and we will be able to 703 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 2: hug him. He is a person. He is a person 704 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,800 Speaker 2: who wept in John eleven about Lazarus dying, and in 705 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 2: Matthew when he came to Jerusalm, he wept. He wept 706 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 2: over the city of Jerusalm. By the way, in John eleven, 707 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 2: he didn't weep when he heard Lazarus died. He wept 708 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: when he showed up and he saw all of Lazarus's 709 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 2: friends weeping. The text says in Johnalvan, that's when he wept. 710 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 2: In other words, he was so touched at the sadness 711 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 2: of others that he couldn't control his own emotions. So 712 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 2: I say to them, do you not know? Has no 713 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 2: one ever told you there's an actual savior with nailscarred arms, 714 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 2: who's not particularly good looking. He would never have appeared 715 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 2: on the cover of men's Health. So if you feel ugly, 716 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 2: don't worry about it. He's in solidary with you. Even 717 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,399 Speaker 2: at that point, Isaiah fifty three says, there is nothing 718 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 2: about him that would have attracted to us us. Do 719 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 2: them physically, okay? And he is putting he is putting 720 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 2: that rugged nails card arm around you, and he is 721 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 2: walking you, stumbling you. He is walking you to heaven. 722 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 2: He not only it's not like a formula, like he 723 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 2: died for you and rose again and you accept him 724 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 2: into your heart and then you go on and one 725 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 2: day you'll you'll see him and you know, good luck 726 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 2: with it. He's with you, he's he's he's walking with 727 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 2: you through and here's the left number four and then 728 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 2: just shut me off if I'm going on to walk 729 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 2: your dream. What I want them to know, what they 730 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 2: must know, What they have to know about the real Christ. 731 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 2: What they must know, oh my gosh, is that he. 732 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 2: Now this will be this will be new for some 733 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 2: of your listeners, and I would just ask them to 734 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 2: test it against the scripture. He, the real Jesus feels, okay, 735 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 2: feels our trauma and heartache and anguish more acutely than 736 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 2: we do. And I defend that by passages like one 737 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 2: Corinthians twelve that say we're the body of Christ. That's 738 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 2: not just a cute metaphor. He's the head of which 739 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: we are the body. What do I got a band 740 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 2: aid on my thumb right here because I sliced it 741 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 2: cutting potatoes last week. Okay, Now, what did the rest 742 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 2: of my body do when I sliced my thumb? Did 743 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,840 Speaker 2: it start Did this hand start smacking it? You know? 744 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 2: Did my mouth start be rating it? Did my right 745 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: foot get annoyed that another part of the body was 746 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 2: not doing what it should be doing. Oh my gosh. No, 747 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 2: the head and the rest of the body leapt into 748 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 2: action to care tenderly and gingerly for the thumb yep. 749 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 2: If we are the body, if we are the body, 750 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 2: if we are the body parts of Jesus Christ, the 751 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 2: organs members of the body of Christ. And first crinthiasself 752 00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 2: doesn't mean member like you have a costco membership. It 753 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 2: means body part. If we are the organs of Jesus Christ, 754 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: then when we go to him in our suffering and 755 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 2: sin for fresh help and forgiveness and care, he's happy 756 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 2: that we're coming to him because his own body is 757 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 2: getting healed right now. We don't even realize we are 758 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,280 Speaker 2: lurking back from him. We don't realize. We're like, oh no, no, 759 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 2: you don't want to I'm messy, you know so, I 760 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 2: know you. We think he's holding his nose when we 761 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 2: approach him. No, he's not holding his nose. His arms 762 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 2: are wide stretched, just as they were on that cross 763 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 2: to embrace us. And so I would just enclosing. I 764 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 2: would just plead, I would plead with such a brother 765 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 2: or sister, stop your bad theology and open a Bible 766 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 2: and let Jesus be that Christ to you at your 767 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 2: worst and not just when you are doing well, so good. 768 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: Dana's so helpful. 769 00:43:59,560 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 2: Man. 770 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,800 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk for a lot longer, but I won't, 771 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: but I'll say this, thank you for the book. Thank 772 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: you for really just being being faithful and letting God 773 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: use you. A lot of books are written, and a 774 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: lot of them are very helpful, but there are books 775 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: like this from time to time that you read it 776 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: and it immediately impacts your life, and it impacts the 777 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: way that you view God, and by virtue of that, 778 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: the way that you think about the world and think 779 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: about your family, and think about the interactions that you 780 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: have with other people and your purpose and all of 781 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: those things. 782 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 2: And this touch is that. 783 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for just being faithful and 784 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: letting God use you. 785 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 2: You are most welcome, brother. Thank you for your service 786 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 2: to the Lord and to this nation and to those 787 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 2: who also love the Lord and this nation. God bless 788 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:51,479 Speaker 2: her Dane. 789 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 1: Where can people follow you? Learn what you're up to? 790 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: I know you're always writing, get ahold of your other books. 791 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: Where would you like to point people toward to Dane. 792 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 2: Ortland dot com is wipe my website and then X 793 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 2: formerly called Twitter is where I put juicy quotes I 794 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 2: get from the Puritans every morning. 795 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: Where you pontificate with the Puritans. 796 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 2: Very good. 797 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: Well, Dane, thank you so much, really appreciate it, and 798 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: hopefully we can do this again sometime. Maybe we can 799 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: figure it out in person at some point. But really 800 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:20,919 Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thank me, thank you, brother. 801 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, alright, let me stop.