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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: I've been waiting a year to hear about this. What

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Speaker 2: are some of the leading moral issues with Mohammad in

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Speaker 2: particular that really give many Muslims pause when they hear it.

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Speaker 1: They're told all their lives that Muhammad's the best human

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Speaker 1: being who's ever lived. It's just page after page after

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Speaker 1: page about how his character was so massively superior to

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Speaker 1: every other human being who's ever lived, including other prophets

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Speaker 1: and so on. And all of a sudden they find out,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I wasn't told about this, this, this, this,

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Speaker 1: and that the number one thing that tend to bother

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Speaker 1: Muslims that he married a six year old girl and

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Speaker 1: that he consummated the marriage when she was nine years

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Speaker 1: old and he was fifty fours. They are processing this

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Speaker 1: information over time, and it just starts eating away at them,

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Speaker 1: and there's like this light switch moment when they start thinking,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I was told all my life by

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Speaker 1: all the religious leaders I respect, Mahan's perfect in all

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Speaker 1: these ways. Maybe I need to look into this for myself.

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Speaker 1: And as soon as a Muslim thinks, I'm I need

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Speaker 1: to look into this for myself, and I can't just

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Speaker 1: trust my leader's got someone who's on his way out

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Speaker 1: of Islam.

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Speaker 2: What is the Islamic dilemma? And is it really an

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Speaker 2: unanswerable challenge for Muslims? What is his state of conversion

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Speaker 2: and deconversion to Islam in the US and beyond. Our

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Speaker 2: guest today, doctor David Wood, is one of the most

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Speaker 2: outspoken defenders of Christianity and critics of is Lam. Given

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Speaker 2: the death threats he has received, has it been worth it?

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Speaker 2: These are a few of the questions we're going to

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Speaker 2: discuss today, David, I saw about a year ago when

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Speaker 2: you flew out and we talked about the death of

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Speaker 2: the Apostles. Also, we had an interview that day with

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Speaker 2: Rob Leifeld, which was super fun. But thanks for coming

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Speaker 2: back on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was cool meeting Rob Leifeld. I grew up

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Speaker 1: reading his comics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one of my favorites of all time. Well,

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Speaker 2: I know most of my audience are familiar with your work,

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Speaker 2: but I would love to hear maybe some don't know

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Speaker 2: kind of your journey to the Christian faith. What happened?

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Speaker 2: And did you, ever, by the way, consider becoming a Muslim.

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Speaker 1: I can answer the second one really really easily know,

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Speaker 1: and that's because by the time I was sort of

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Speaker 1: being invited to Islam, I was I'd already become a

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Speaker 1: committed Christian. So and then as the case was being

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Speaker 1: presented to me, I was looking things up same same

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Speaker 1: as I did with with Christianity. Eventually, I was looking

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Speaker 1: at the main claims and then going to the background

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Speaker 1: and seeing what evidence there is for these claims. And

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Speaker 1: you have lots of atheists who think it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: the exact same situation, like people just don't examine the

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Speaker 1: reasons and don't investigate, and if you did, you'd find

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Speaker 1: out there's no support for any of these things. That's

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Speaker 1: absolute nonsense. If you start looking into the resime, if

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Speaker 1: you start looking into the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, uh,

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Speaker 1: even even if you have a commitment to naturalism and

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Speaker 1: you don't believe it, you at least see why people

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Speaker 1: would believe it, right. I mean, we have a we

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Speaker 1: have a ton of evidence that Jesus died by crucifixion.

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Speaker 1: We have a ton of evidence that his close as

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Speaker 1: followers were claiming that he was alive again later and

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Speaker 1: it appeared to them that they're willing to endure all

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Speaker 1: kinds of things, as we discussed last year, including death

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Speaker 1: for their claim that they had seen Jesus risen from

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Speaker 1: the dead. So you start looking in there and you

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Speaker 1: start looking into it, and it's like something actually happened

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Speaker 1: there that convinced these guys what's going on. The claims

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Speaker 1: of Islam are completely different. You look at their main arguments,

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Speaker 1: and it would be things like the miraculous preservation of

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Speaker 1: the Qoran dot for dot, letter for letter. You can

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Speaker 1: look at any two Quran manuscripts in history and they

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Speaker 1: match up perfectly dot for dot, letter for letter, and

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Speaker 1: so it's miraculous. It's miraculous preservation. Well, you spend five

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Speaker 1: minutes looking into that. It's complete nonsense. Whether you look

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Speaker 1: at the manuscript, tradition or different Qurans in the world today,

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Speaker 1: or just their own sources about how the Koran was

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Speaker 1: kind of compiled, it falls apart. There's the evidence shows

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Speaker 1: the exact opposite of what the claim is, and so

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Speaker 1: on with all their main arguments, and so so I

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Speaker 1: was I was Muslim, started giving me tracks and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, and I would instantly just start going and

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Speaker 1: looking things up and realize, something's really weird is going

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Speaker 1: on here. With with with their arguments. As soon as

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Speaker 1: you look into them they fall apart. But that was

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Speaker 1: actually in prison. I was in prison when I had

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Speaker 1: a my kind of first Muslim friend. We were weightlifting

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Speaker 1: partners and so on, but ended up in prison. Ended

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Speaker 1: up in prison for attacking my dad with a hammer.

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Speaker 1: I was an atheist growing up. For any atheist or watching, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying atheists go around attacking people, attacking people

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Speaker 1: and so on. I wasn't just an atheist. I was

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Speaker 1: eventually diagnosed with any social personality disorder. So that's the

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Speaker 1: disorder that psychopaths and sociopaths are. The comment are the

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Speaker 1: popular terms for people with any social personality disorder. But

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Speaker 1: you're growing up and you don't know that you have

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Speaker 1: a problem, right, No, no one, No one sits you

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Speaker 1: down and explains what anti social personality disorder is. I'm

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Speaker 1: starting to think people should write, like at some point,

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Speaker 1: like in middle school, they should give a talk to

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Speaker 1: students and say, Okay, here are the symptoms of antisocial

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Speaker 1: personality disorder. Here are the symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: Here are the symptoms of histrionic personality disorder. So that

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Speaker 1: if young people start seeing these symptoms in themselves or

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Speaker 1: in someone around them. As they're growing up, maybe they

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Speaker 1: won't maybe they'll know what's going on and won't make

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Speaker 1: some terrible decisions like I did, because I concluded that

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Speaker 1: since I don't have normal emotional reactions that other people had,

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Speaker 1: that I had evolved to a higher level of humanity

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Speaker 1: where I was, I was like beyond everyone else. Everyone else,

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Speaker 1: they you know, they cry when people die and stuff.

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Speaker 1: I don't. So it's like, you guys had these emotions

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Speaker 1: for a while. You had these emotions, and maybe they

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Speaker 1: played some role and maybe they helped you somehow. But

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Speaker 1: you know, humanity two point zero's here, and we don't

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Speaker 1: need that stuff anymore. And so I thought, I thought,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't have normal emotional reactions, that I was somehow.

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Speaker 1: So I thought that I had some extra ability that

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Speaker 1: other people lacked, Whereas I eventually concluded that I lacked

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Speaker 1: an ability that everyone else had, and so I was, uh,

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Speaker 1: and so I was defective somehow, But anyway, so I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that. When I was grown up, I thought

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Speaker 1: it was superior to everyone and had this weird issue

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Speaker 1: where anytime I was following any sort of rule that

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Speaker 1: anyone gave me. If it was like I was being

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Speaker 1: I'd been polluted or something like. So people raise me

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Speaker 1: and tell me you can't do this, then as long

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Speaker 1: as I'm obeying that rule, I felt like you had

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Speaker 1: somehow polluted me. And the way to get out of

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Speaker 1: that was to do the opposite of what I'm being told.

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Speaker 1: And that just went on and on and on until

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Speaker 1: I until I ended up in until I ended up

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Speaker 1: in prison. First I put me in psychiatric hospital. That's

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Speaker 1: where they diagnosed me with any social personality disorder. But

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Speaker 1: you don't you don't keep you don't keep psychopaths and

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Speaker 1: sociopaths in mental hospitals. You send them to prison. So

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Speaker 1: I ended up in ended up in jail, and in

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Speaker 1: jail I met a I met a Christian named Randy

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Speaker 1: who was in there for turning himself in for everything

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Speaker 1: he'd ever done. I thought this was a is a

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Speaker 1: pretty weird individual. But we started arguing and that this

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Speaker 1: was the first Christian, the first Christian I met in

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Speaker 1: my life who would actually like stand his ground day

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Speaker 1: after day. The closest I got before then was like

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Speaker 1: my parents. My parents didn't care a whole lot about things.

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Speaker 1: So the only time someone would like give me would

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Speaker 1: even like talk about Christianity at all, would be my

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Speaker 1: grandmother or my aunt. But my grandmother one day, she

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Speaker 1: we were just standing in her kitchen. I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: and she's she was talking about her hand, and she goes,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about the you know, how

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Speaker 1: amazing the hand and how it's it's it's it's more

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Speaker 1: complex than in anything in this kitchen right now. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, you can you can get the idea, you

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Speaker 1: know that it was made and so but that was

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Speaker 1: like the the closest I'd ever gotten to like apologetics

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Speaker 1: growing up. It was something like that. But apart apart

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Speaker 1: from little things like that, my experience was that Christians

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Speaker 1: would start backing down as so as soon as he

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Speaker 1: started arguing with them, and they was a, hey, come on,

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Speaker 1: this is a tough you fight about. We don't want

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Speaker 1: we don't want an argument. And anyway, I was in

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Speaker 1: jail and met a Christian who he'd been through it all.

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Speaker 1: He'd been through it all, so he was arguing with me.

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Speaker 1: And I thought at this time that I was the

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Speaker 1: most advanced human being in the world, and here I

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Speaker 1: was with a Christian, not just any Christian, a Christian

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Speaker 1: who was dumb enough to turn himself in for everything

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Speaker 1: he'd ever done. And so we just started discussing God

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Speaker 1: and Christianity, and I was bothered by the fact that

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Speaker 1: this Christian, who was an inferior being was was doing

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Speaker 1: really well in these arguments. And then I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what I was talking about, and so on. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: we got in this, as far as I know, world's

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Speaker 1: first ever fasting battle. It wasn't a battle to him.

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Speaker 1: He would just fast. He would say, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is the first time in my life where I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have the ability to fast for long periods

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Speaker 1: of time because I'm locked up and you know, don't

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Speaker 1: have to go to work or anything. So he went,

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Speaker 1: He went seven days on nothing but water, and then

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Speaker 1: just to beat him, just because I was enraged and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to beat the Christian, I went ten. So

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Speaker 1: I went the first time I ever fasted. I never

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Speaker 1: fasted in my life, first time I ever fasted. I

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Speaker 1: went ten days on nothing but water. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: he'd fast, and I'd fast and head fast and whatever

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Speaker 1: he did, I'd do a couple extra days and he

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Speaker 1: asked me. Eventually he noticed, He said, how come every

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Speaker 1: time I fast for a certain amount of time, you

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Speaker 1: go like two or three days more. And I don't know,

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Speaker 1: just just a coincidence, but eventually he went forty days.

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Speaker 1: So he went, he went thirty He went thirty two

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Speaker 1: days on water, and then he started drinking like kool

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Speaker 1: aid and stuff to prepare his body for food again,

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Speaker 1: because you get messed up if you start eating again

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Speaker 1: after you get messed up. And so he told me that.

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Speaker 1: He told me why he was doing forty days, and

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Speaker 1: told me about Jesus fasting forty days. And I said,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm going forty two. And so I was

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Speaker 1: on the eleventh day when I passed out in front

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Speaker 1: of a guard and then they stuck me in a

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Speaker 1: they stuck me in an isolation sale, and back there

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Speaker 1: I was. I decided I was going to study Christianity.

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Speaker 1: I was going to study Christianity so that I would

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Speaker 1: be able to destroy all this stuff. And we talked

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Speaker 1: a little bit about this last year that it was

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Speaker 1: it was thinking of it was thinking about the deaths

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Speaker 1: of the apostles and so on. I was just trying

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Speaker 1: to think because okay, because My theory before then was

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Speaker 1: they had their they had their guy, They had their

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Speaker 1: they had their Messiah, and he died and they decided

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Speaker 1: they wanted to keep the movement going, so they made

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Speaker 1: up a story about him rising from the dead to

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Speaker 1: keep the movement going. And it worked, it worked for them.

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Speaker 1: Problem was, well, what happens when you start being persecuted

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Speaker 1: and enduring you know, torture and death and so on.

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Speaker 1: Why would you Why would you do that if you

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Speaker 1: know that you made it up. It's one thing if

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Speaker 1: you hear a message and you believe it, you're willing

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Speaker 1: to go out and die for it. But these guys

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Speaker 1: were claiming they saw something, and I was just started

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Speaker 1: thinking like, like, who out of anyone in history who

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Speaker 1: made something up? Made up a story? Like who can

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Speaker 1: I think of that willingly went to their death or

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Speaker 1: endured persecution or whatever. Who's willing to do that for

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Speaker 1: something they made up? And I was just thinking, No,

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Speaker 1: you have to believe, you have to believe what you're

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Speaker 1: enduring persecution and death for. And so my explanation stopped

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Speaker 1: making sense. And when I started thinking, well, what does

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Speaker 1: explain this? What explains this guy's public execution? And then

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Speaker 1: all these followers saying they had seen him risen from

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Speaker 1: the den and appeared to them, and it was kind

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Speaker 1: of that. And then I was thinking about a kind

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Speaker 1: of a version of the design argument, and then I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about a version of the moral argument. And

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Speaker 1: at the end it was just like, okay, what have

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Speaker 1: I got to lose? Like this is looking like it

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Speaker 1: may be true. I don't I don't know that it's true,

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Speaker 1: and there's all this information I don't know right now,

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Speaker 1: but what if it is? What if it is? And

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Speaker 1: I pray? What if I pray? And then you know

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Speaker 1: it turns out not to be true. It's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I wasted a little bit of time. It's not like

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Speaker 1: I'm getting any worse. I'm already. I'm already you know,

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Speaker 1: starving in a in a jail cell. So I kind

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Speaker 1: of prayed with like okay, let's let's see if anything

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Speaker 1: changes here. And yeah, I prayed, and then everything did

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Speaker 1: change really in really quick, in really quick fashion, and

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Speaker 1: so it's, uh, it was. It was a cool it's

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Speaker 1: a cool time. It's a cool time for if you're

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Speaker 1: a new Christian because you have you have plenty of

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Speaker 1: time to read the Bible and study the Bible and

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Speaker 1: go to church services and Bible studies and so on.

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Speaker 1: So I was doing that, and that's when I started

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Speaker 1: meeting Muslims in prison and starting to talk to them

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Speaker 1: and so on, and uh, but no, they started inviting

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Speaker 1: me to Islam and I've been I've been studying apologetics

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Speaker 1: for a couple of years by that point, and so no,

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Speaker 1: was never never interest they did in converting after that.

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Speaker 2: Now, you and I first met, I think it was

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Speaker 2: two thousand and four at the first EPs William Lane

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Speaker 2: Craig conference that was hosted twenty some years ago, and

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Speaker 2: Nobill was there as well. That was the first time

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Speaker 2: I met him. Some people might know some of the story,

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Speaker 2: but give us a little bit of the backstory of

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Speaker 2: your relationship with him and the journey you saw him

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Speaker 2: go through to become a Christian and leave is Lam.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was kind of funny because I was looking,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm just just reading the Bible all these years,

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Speaker 1: and what I would always think that Jesus sent them

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Speaker 1: out two by two, and I was always thinking like, hey,

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Speaker 1: it'd be cool to have a have a partner in

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Speaker 1: all this, right, like going out two at a time

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Speaker 1: or something like this. So anyway, I was thinking I

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Speaker 1: had like a partner and stuff. And then Nobille and

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Speaker 1: I both joined the speech and debate team at Old

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Speaker 1: men U University and we ended up going on you

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Speaker 1: go to you know, you go to other universities for

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Speaker 1: tournaments and stuff like that, and we ended up sharing

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Speaker 1: a hotel room on that first trip. And so all

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Speaker 1: I knew about him at this point was his name's Nobil,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm thinking, okay, some some kind of Muslim.

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Speaker 1: His name is Nabil Kureshi, So some kind of Muslim,

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Speaker 1: but you don't know if they're like liberal or I mean,

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Speaker 1: atheist but from a Muslim background or something like that.

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Speaker 1: So he had no no, I no clue like what

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Speaker 1: kind of Muslim talking to But we when we got

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Speaker 1: to the hotel room and he started putting his stuff away,

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Speaker 1: I saw him he brought his prayer mat with him,

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Speaker 1: and so it's okay, this is a Muslim who's at

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Speaker 1: least serious enough to bring his prayer mat with him

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Speaker 1: on a school trip. And so I'm sitting there. I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting there reading the Bible. In a year, so I'm

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Speaker 1: reading I was in Isaiah at that point reading the

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Speaker 1: Bible in a year, and I was thinking, Okay, you

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Speaker 1: may want me to talk to this guy, lord, and

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Speaker 1: I may be in this room for re but if

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Speaker 1: you want me to talk to him, could you let

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Speaker 1: him start the conversation. Because if I start the conversation,

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Speaker 1: people are going to say he's picking on the Muslim

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Speaker 1: or he's attacking the Muslim or something like that. So

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Speaker 1: let him start it. And it was shortly after that

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Speaker 1: he again, he's putting his stuff away, I'm reading the Bible,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden he goes, so are you

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Speaker 1: a hardcore Christian? And I said, yes, I am, and uh, yep.

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Speaker 1: We got started on our conversations that weekend and one

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Speaker 1: of the nights we stayed up. We stayed up all night.

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Speaker 1: We stayed up all night discussing these things, and I

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Speaker 1: would just, uh, kind of it wasn't It wasn't like

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Speaker 1: some intentional plan or strategy that I came up with.

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Speaker 1: But it's kind of similar to Greg Kochel's tactics that

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Speaker 1: I kind of just did this just by nature. If

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to someone, I would just ask them questions

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Speaker 1: about what they believe. And so I'm asking him, you know,

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Speaker 1: what do you believe about this? What do you believe

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Speaker 1: believe about God? What do you believe about Jesus? What

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Speaker 1: do you believe about Mohamed? What do you believe about

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Speaker 1: the Koran? And so I'm just asking questions and then

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Speaker 1: eventually start asking like what are your reasons for believing

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Speaker 1: this stuff? Like why do you believe this about Jesus?

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Speaker 1: Why do you believe this about Mohammed? Why do you

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Speaker 1: believe this about the Koran? And so he started giving

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Speaker 1: me reasons, and he was just Islam is proven by

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Speaker 1: science and mathematics and history and logic, and everything points

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Speaker 1: to Islam and the miraculous history of the Koran and

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Speaker 1: so on, and so he just went on and on

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Speaker 1: and on about all this evidence in these scientific miracles,

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Speaker 1: which I hadn't looked into this stuff at this point,

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Speaker 1: but he's telling me all these arguments, and so he

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Speaker 1: kind of like completed his case, and then I said,

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Speaker 1: all right, I got one more question for you. If

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Speaker 1: you're wrong, do you want to know it? And he's like,

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Speaker 1: he's like, well, I'm not wrong. I said. I didn't

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Speaker 1: say you're wrong. I said if you were wrong, would

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Speaker 1: you want to know it? Or would you want to

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Speaker 1: go on believing in something that is not true? Which one?

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Speaker 1: And he actually, you know, he actually paused and thought

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Speaker 1: for a while and he said yes, and he said yes,

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Speaker 1: I would want to know the truth about God. He said,

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Speaker 1: but no, because I know it would destroy my family.

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Speaker 1: And that was kind of a bial in a nutshell.

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Speaker 1: He had his loyalty to God, but he really really

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Speaker 1: loved his He really loved his family and did not,

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Speaker 1: under any circumstances want to want to hurt them. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: I ran with that. I ran with the him wanting

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Speaker 1: to know the truth about God. So we had our

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Speaker 1: first discussions that weekend, and that continued for for about

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Speaker 1: four years, for about four years, and then he became

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Speaker 1: a Christian and I thought, cool, I'm done with Islam.

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Speaker 1: And it didn't work out that way. It didn't work

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Speaker 1: out that way. It was it was about a month later.

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Speaker 1: It was about a month later he got his first

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Speaker 1: death threat and it was attached to his car. So

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Speaker 1: that's actually serious. But it's about a month later he

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Speaker 1: got his first death threat. It was attached to his car,

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Speaker 1: and I was just thinking, I can't let him face

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Speaker 1: this by himself. So I mean, if you're coming for him,

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Speaker 1: you got you got to come for both of us. So,

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Speaker 1: uh anyway, and so that that's why I continued for

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Speaker 1: a little while, and and then over time I realized, Wow,

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Speaker 1: Muslims make really awesome Christians And there's a reason for that.

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Speaker 1: It's a it costs. It cost them a lot. Conversion

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Speaker 1: cost them a lot. You know, I converted to Christianity

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Speaker 1: in a jail sale. As far as most of my

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Speaker 1: family is concerned, it wouldn't have mattered if I became

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Speaker 1: a Buddhist or anything else, as long as it was

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Speaker 1: you know, making me somehow better and not commit crimes.

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Speaker 1: But uh so, so there wasn't there wasn't a lot

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Speaker 1: of con There wasn't a lot of concern about choosing

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Speaker 1: the wrong path or something like that. It's just are

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Speaker 1: you going to be are you going to start behaving better?

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Speaker 1: But in Islam it's a pretty big issue. They're they're

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Speaker 1: told all their lives that the worst possible sin you

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Speaker 1: can you can commit is shirk, which is, if you

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Speaker 1: say Jesus's Lord, you've committed the worst possible sin. In Islam,

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Speaker 1: that's a one way ticket to hell. And on top

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Speaker 1: of that, they know that either they're going to have

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Speaker 1: to either their families will abandon them and not talk

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Speaker 1: to them anymore, or at the very least the relationships

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Speaker 1: is going to be very strained for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: And on top of that, there is the death penalty

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Speaker 1: for apostasy in Islam. Muhamed said, if anyone leaves his

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Speaker 1: Islamic religion, kill him and doesn't get carried out a

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Speaker 1: lot in the West. But you always have to start wondering,

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Speaker 1: all right, is someone eventually going to carry out this penalty?

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Speaker 1: And so you know, that's all like massive psychological pressure

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Speaker 1: on Muslims. But the positive side is that when someone

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Speaker 1: like Nabil says, you know, I've been told all my

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Speaker 1: life this is the worst possible sin, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know how my family's going to react. But if they

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Speaker 1: turn their backs on me, then they turn their backs

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Speaker 1: on me, and this may get me killed. But you

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Speaker 1: know what I want to know, Jesus. That's someone who

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Speaker 1: will stand up for Jesus.

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Speaker 2: So that makes total sense. Now I want to get

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Speaker 2: into a little bit of of your ministry and the

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Speaker 2: focus of it, and then make sure we get to

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Speaker 2: this Islamic dilemma because I remember a year ago. You

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Speaker 2: tell me, like Sean, you've got to talk about this

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Speaker 2: on your channel. It's really important. But I want my father.

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Speaker 2: He's eighty six years old right now and is not

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Speaker 2: doing debates, not writing anymore. He's not able to. But

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Speaker 2: as you know, in the early eighties debated Akhmeddi Dot

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Speaker 2: just huge debate in its time. But my dad had

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Speaker 2: a philosophy where he wouldn't critique Islam or other systems.

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Speaker 2: He would give the positive for his position. And you've

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Speaker 2: obviously taken a different approach, and this is not better worse.

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Speaker 2: It's more just tell me what approach you've taken and why.

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Speaker 1: Well, I spend a lot of time blasting away to

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Speaker 1: Islam and the claims that basically Muslims have heard their

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Speaker 1: entire lives, and as far as like the approach I've taken,

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Speaker 1: that had a lot to do with the bill. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned that we were having these discussions for about four years,

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Speaker 1: but for the first i'd say two two and a

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Speaker 1: half years, we were almost almost exclusively discussing Christian topics.

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Speaker 1: Did Jesus die on the cross? Did he rise from

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Speaker 1: the dead? Is he the Son of God? Are the

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Speaker 1: New Testament books reliable, historically reliable, and so on. So

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Speaker 1: we're focused on those kinds of questions, and eventually, eventually

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Speaker 1: we started talking about we started applying the same level

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Speaker 1: of scrutiny to Muslim claims about the Koran and Muhammad.

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Speaker 1: And the Bill told me after he became a Christian,

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Speaker 1: he told me, after he became a Christian. And this

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Speaker 1: is kind of the relevance here. After he became a Christian,

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Speaker 1: he told me. He said, whenever we would examine the

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Speaker 1: evidence for some Christian topic, he said, even though I

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Speaker 1: was arguing the arguing against it, the entire time, I

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Speaker 1: was thinking to myself, wowow, Christians actually have good evidence

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00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 1: for what they believe. So he'd be thinking, Okay, I

431
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: don't believe Jesus died on the cross, but they have

432
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 1: a really good solid evidence that Jesus died on the cross.

433
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: And it was the same for the resurrection, for Jesus

434
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: divine nature, and for the reliability of the New Testament.

435
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: And Meal said he kept thinking, they actually have evidence

436
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: for this. I didn't think there was going to be

437
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: evidence for this, but they actually have good evidence for this.

438
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: But he said, what happened in his mind was that

439
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: when he would think, Okay, actually, they really have good

440
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: evidence for what they believe. Here. He would also think

441
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: to himself, well, even if they can show me with

442
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent certainty that all these things are true,

443
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 1: I'm still one hundred percent sure that Islam is true

444
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: because of the scientific miracles and because of the miraculous

445
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: preservation of the Quran. And so it's like when a

446
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: Muslim is thinking like that, you're like kind of fighting

447
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: a losing battle in a sense. You know, there can

448
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: be something miraculous that happens, But as far as your

449
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: arguments are concerned, if someone is one hundred percent convinced

450
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: that Islam is supported by all this evidence, because they've

451
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: been told that all their lives, it's very difficult for

452
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 1: them to take anything else seriously. Like how do they

453
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 1: take anything else seriously at that point when you when

454
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: they've got one hundred percent certainty. And that's why it

455
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: was important for us to look at these claims for

456
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 1: miraculous preservation of the Quran, and you know, going through

457
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: these supposed scientific miracles and so on. And what this

458
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,959
Speaker 1: would look like is Nabil like would quote a hadith

459
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: or a passage from the Quran and say this is

460
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: this is knowledge. It couldn't have possibly been known at

461
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: this time. It's miraculous and so on, and I would,

462
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 1: you know, I started buying their sources and I would

463
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: go to the passage and I would I would always say,

464
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: I want to read that for myself, not what you're

465
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: telling me it says. I want to read what it

466
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 1: says for myself. So I started buying the sources and

467
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: I'd go through there and I'd be thinking, well, that's

468
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: not what it says, that's not what it says. And

469
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: someone's just taking a little part of what it says

470
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: and ignoring the rest of what it says, and the

471
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: rest of what it says is clearly wrong. And and

472
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: then oh, my goodness, look at the look at the

473
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: next passage. That is definitely wrong. And started going back

474
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: to him. So he'd say, he'd matter of fact, there

475
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: was a he Mike Lacona. Mike Lacona lived in the

476
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: same area we did, and he had a regular apologetics

477
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: study where we'd have atheists, we'd sometimes have Muslims, and uh,

478
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: we sat there and that we we went through an

479
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 1: entire presentation with the bill, and the bill gave an

480
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: entire presentation on scientific miracles in the Muslim sources. And

481
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: I was not familiar with this stuff. So I'm just

482
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: sitting there taking notes and then I go look up everything,

483
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: and then I start risk. I start sending him messages

484
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: and for emails. I still got the emails. I want

485
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: to go through these. Sometimes it's actually funny. Yeah, but

486
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: uh no, Bill was incredibly intelligent. So I'm sitting there going,

487
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: how are you not getting this? How are you taking

488
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: this as a miracle. Look at the next passage. You

489
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: know this is wrong. You know this is false. You're

490
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: you're going to you're you're you're starting medical school. You

491
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: know this is wrong. And it took while, but the

492
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: end of all that, the end of all that was

493
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: he started realizing that once you start looking into these arguments,

494
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: they they'd been exaggerated. The evidence for Islam at the

495
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: very least had been exaggerated. And so it was kind

496
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: of once his confidence in Islam was shaken, that he's

497
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: able to take Christianity a little more seriously. And then

498
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: he got to the point where he's just he's asking

499
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: God for like dreams and visions and stuff like that

500
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: to tell him because he's like, I don't know what

501
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: to believe here, But him getting to the point where

502
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: he was that open had a lot to do with

503
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: him seeing that the things he'd been taught about Islam

504
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: just weren't true. And that's pretty much my experience with

505
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: Islam since it, because back then it was just my

506
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: experience with the Bill. But most Muslims I've seen who

507
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: left Islam and became Christians, they only took Christianity seriously

508
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: after they saw some problems with what they've been taught

509
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: about Islam, and they started seeing problems with with mohammedans on.

510
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: In fact, there was a there was a poll several

511
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: years ago by a Muslim who asked Muslims. He said,

512
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: I'm only talking to those of you who doubt sometimes,

513
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: who doubt your religion. Sometimes when you doubt your religion,

514
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: what is it that's causing those doubts? The number one

515
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: answer was moral problems with Muhammed, Like why are we

516
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: taking this guy seriously when there's all these problems, great

517
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: presentations of an alternative to Islam that was very low,

518
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: that was very low, that was not something that would

519
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: ordinarily cause Muslims to doubt that Islam is true. So

520
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: it was problems in their religion that would cause them

521
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: to doubt the claims of Islam, and then they're able

522
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: to take, you know, take an alternative more more seriously.

523
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: But with all that, with all that said, it's good

524
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: to have like a variety of approaches. So there there

525
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: are tons of us now who are going out there,

526
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, kind of exposing the claims of of the Islam,

527
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: who are pointing out problems with Mohammad and so on.

528
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: There are other Christians who are, you know, preaching the

529
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: Gospel and defending Christianity. And there's some who do both,

530
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: and there are some who pick one or the other.

531
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: But it's a big world, and there are all kinds

532
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: of differ different kinds of Muslims out there. So it's

533
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: all it's all welcome as far as I'm concerned.

534
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: Makes atal sense. Now, one more question before we get

535
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: to the Islamic dilemma. You said for Muslims who doubt

536
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: their faith, it's more the moral challenges than it is

537
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 2: say historical challenges. Sir a Ford that Jesus didn't die

538
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: by crucifixion or contradictions in the Quran. What are some

539
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: of the leading moral issues with Mohammed in particular that

540
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: really give many Muslims pause when they hear it.

541
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: Well, and this was the case with Nobil, But they're

542
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: told all their lives that Muhammad's the best human being

543
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: who's ever lived. And I mean, I've got Muslim apologetics

544
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: books at Dawel books and so on that are just filled.

545
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just page after page after page about

546
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: how his character was so perfect, how he is so

547
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: massively superior to every other human being who's ever lived,

548
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: including other including other prophets and so on, and just

549
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: read this all your life, and it gets built into

550
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: their brain like how could this guy have been a

551
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: liar or not have been a prophet or been just

552
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: misled or been insane or something. It's kind of like

553
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: their version of the trilemma, but it's based on it's

554
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: based on the idea that his character is so perfect.

555
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: How could he be wrong or be lying or something

556
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: like that if his character is so amazing and perfect

557
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: and so just makes sense that he's telling the truth,

558
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: if his character is perfect in every other way, And

559
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they find out, wait a minute,

560
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: I wasn't told about this, this, this, this, and that.

561
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: But some of the things that that tend to bother Muslims,

562
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: that the number one thing is that he married a

563
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: six year old girl named Aisha, and that he consummated

564
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: the marriage when she was nine years old and he

565
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: was fifty four. So he was fifty four years old

566
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: and he had sex with a nine year old girl who,

567
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: according to their sources, was prepubescent. And lots of Muslims

568
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: know that. Now, if you go back twenty years, most

569
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: Muslims didn't know that at all. They found that out

570
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: because we started sharing that information, and you know, so

571
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: they'll give explanations for why it was actually good or

572
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: Muhammad really needed to do that for some reason, but

573
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: for lots of Muslims, it just it starts bothering them, like,

574
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: wait a minute. This is a guy I'm told is

575
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, his character is perfect, and he's the one

576
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: that Allah says in the current, it's there a thirty

577
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: three verse twenty one that this is the pattern of

578
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: conduct from Muslim So the pattern of conduct is a

579
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: guy who, when he is fifty four years old, had

580
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: sex with a prepubescent nine year old girl. And that

581
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: just starts bothering them, and it just it just kind

582
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: of goes on from there, they're told. They're told Muslims

583
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: in the West, especially, we're told that Muhammad came along

584
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: and he just he read all the slaves and so on.

585
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: It's like, that's complete nonsense. It's complete nonsense. According to sources. Mohammed,

586
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: according to their sources, bought, owned, sold, and traded black

587
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: African slaves. So they'll hear something all their life and

588
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: they'll think, wow, what a great man, and then they

589
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: find out the opposite is true. You have stories of

590
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: a there's the there's the Battle of Kaibar where they

591
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: Muslim sort of went and attacked a Jewish settlement and

592
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: there was a man named Kanana who knew where some

593
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: money was hidden, but he wouldn't tell, and so Mohammad

594
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: had one of his followers light a fire on the

595
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: guy's chest to torture him. And so they tortured him

596
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: and then chopped his head off. But then Mohammed took

597
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: the guy's wife back to his tent. So they just

598
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: killed this woman's tortured and killed this woman's husband. Mohammad

599
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: takes her back to his tent and one of his

600
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: one of his one of his soldiers stood guard all

601
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: night around the tent in case she tried to kill Mohammad.

602
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: So anyway you have you have things like that. You

603
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: have another big one is this, and this really bothered

604
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: Muslims back at the time as well. But you had

605
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: Muhammad who had an adopted son named Zaid. So Mohammad

606
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: had an adopted son named Zaiyad who was called Zaid

607
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: bin Muhammad. That's Zaid's son of Muhammad. And Ziad married

608
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful women in Arabia, who's Mohammed's

609
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: first cousin. And one day Mohammad went to visit his

610
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: adopted son, and his adopted son wasn't home and was

611
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: he was instead greeted by Zaynab, who was wearing almost

612
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: nothing at the time, and Mohammad started, well, he started

613
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: blusting after her and so on, and his adopted son

614
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: found out about it and said, hey, if you want her,

615
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: then you can have her. You're the prophet, you get

616
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: whatever you want. And Mohammed said no, no, no, no, go

617
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 1: go and go and keep her and so on. But anyway,

618
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: long story short, Zaiyad divorced her and Mohammad married her,

619
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: and so he married the wife of his own adopted son.

620
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: This cause this was a big scandal. They viewed that

621
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: as along the lines of incest, and so so Allah's

622
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: response in the Koran Sarah thirty three, verse thirty seven.

623
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 1: Allah's response in the Qoran was, Mohammed, you had to

624
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: marry her because I need other people to understand. I

625
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: need other Muslims to understand that it's okay to take

626
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: the wives of their own adopted sons. And it's like,

627
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I mean, how many people historically struggle

628
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: with that, Like, huh, do I really there's my adopted

629
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: son and there's his wife and she's really attractive. Do

630
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: I take her or not? Like who struggles with this?

631
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: But Allah says it's so important that he not only

632
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: needed to reveal that it's okay in the Koran, he

633
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: needed Muhammad to do it to set the example. Now,

634
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: why that's absolutely absurd is people continued complaining about all

635
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: of this, and so in response, a Llah abolished adoption

636
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: in the Qoran. It's Sarah thirty three, verses four to five.

637
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: A Lah abolishes adoption. There's no adoption in Islam. You

638
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: can take care of an orphan, you do not adopt

639
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: the orphan, and he becomes part of your family, and

640
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: so it's just it's just insanely incoherent. It's Muhammad, I

641
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: really really really need you to take the wife of

642
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 1: your own adopted son. Why because so that other Muslims

643
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: will understand they can take the wives of their adopted sons. Oh,

644
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm abolishing adoption. So it's never a

645
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: situation that's going to arise. It's like, wait, wait a minute,

646
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: it's never a situation that's going to arise in Islam.

647
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 1: But it's so important that you need Mohammed to take

648
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: the wife as und adopted son. Anyway, there are tons

649
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: of issues like that which Muslims aren't familiar with. They're

650
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: just told Mohammed is great in all these ways, and

651
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: then they start finding these things out, and there's like

652
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: a light switch moment after a while, because you bring

653
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 1: some of this stuff up and they'll just defend it.

654
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: You'll bring it up, you'll bring it up, and then

655
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: they'll go look on a website, they'll look up responses

656
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: on a website, and they'll come back to you with

657
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: those responses. But they are processing this information over time

658
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: and it just starts eating away at them, and there's

659
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: like this light switch moment when they start thinking, wait

660
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: a minute, I was told all my life by all

661
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: the religious leaders I respect. The Mahan's perfect in all

662
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: these ways. They never told me about any of this stuff.

663
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: I have to hear about this stuff from non Muslims.

664
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: But the non Muslims are telling me stuff that's in

665
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 1: our sources that these guys are concealing from me. And

666
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: so maybe I just can't trust these guys with everything.

667
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: If they're hiding all of this from me and then

668
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: telling me what to believe, maybe I need to look

669
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: into this for myself. And as soon as the Muslim thinks,

670
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: I need to look into this for myself. And I

671
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: can't just trust my leaders. That's someone who's on his

672
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: way out of Islam.

673
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 2: Now, one place you might take this individual on the

674
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: way out is the Islamic dilemma. So I've been waiting

675
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 2: a year to hear about this. I know there's some

676
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 2: videos online, but really want my folks to hear it.

677
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: So explain it. What is the Islamic dilemma?

678
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: And that's another example of what I'm just of what

679
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: I was just talking about. Muslims hear all their lives

680
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: from their leaders. That what the Koran says, is Allah

681
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: revealed the Jewish and Christian scriptures, the Tour and the

682
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: Gospel and so on. Allah revealed them, but sadly Jews

683
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: and Christians corrupted them. And so since Jews and Christians

684
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: corrupted them, there was no preserved revelation available to human beings.

685
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: And therefore Allah sent Mohammed with the Koran to be

686
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: the preserved book that everyone now has to believe in.

687
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: So Muslims are told all their lives that that's what

688
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: that's the message of the Koran. The message of the

689
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: Koran is the Tour in the Gospel were revealed by

690
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: a law, but Jews and Christians corrupted them, and that's

691
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: why Allah needed to send the Koran. Problem is, that's

692
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: not what the Koran says at all, Like like, there's

693
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: nothing in the Koran that supports the corruption of the

694
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: previous scriptures. There's there's not one word the actual message

695
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: of the Koran. In other words, if you weren't listening

696
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: to to what Muslims say, or to what this in

697
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: mom says or this shaikh says, if you're not listening

698
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: to any of that, and you were just to read

699
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: the Koran and say what is this saying, What is

700
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: this saying about the Koran and about books? The actual

701
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: message of the Koran is that Allah has sent prophets

702
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: to every people of every language in the world, and

703
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: that He's given revelations to all these different groups, and

704
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: that the last people, the last group to receive the revelation,

705
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: were the Arabs. That's why Mohammad is this, That's why

706
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: Muhammad's the last prophet. Everyone else already had their revelation.

707
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: There was only one group left that didn't have their revelation,

708
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: the Arabs, And so Allah sent Mohammed to the Arabs

709
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: so that they would have a revelation in their language.

710
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: But now now that every group from every language has

711
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: their revelation, you're responsible for obeying and judging by and

712
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: believing in the revelations that were given to your group.

713
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: So if you're a Jew, you're responsible for judging by

714
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: the Torah. If you're a Christian, you're responsible for judging

715
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: by the Gospel. If you're a Muslim, then you're supposed

716
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: to judge by the Quran. So that's what the Kuran

717
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: actually says. Very difficult to find a Muslim who understands,

718
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: who understands that just because there's a reason they've had

719
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: to develop the myth that the Qoran calls the previous

720
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: scriptures corrupt. And that's because if you look at what

721
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: the Koran says about the previous scriptures and then go

722
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: to those previous scriptures, they do not line up with

723
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: what the Koran says, and so Muslims are kind of

724
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: in an awkward position. But it leads to a dilemma,

725
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about here in a second. I'll just

726
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: give people some verses that I'll tell them what the

727
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: verses say and then they can look them up, but

728
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: I'll give them some references.

729
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: So okay, let me pause before you come to the verses.

730
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: Just want to make sure that I'm tracking. Is that

731
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: you're saying that Muslims have been told their whole life

732
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: that the Qoran is the perfect holy scriptures, and that

733
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: the Jews and Christian scriptures have been corrupted by Jews

734
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: and Christians, hence we need the Koran. But when you

735
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: go to the Koran, you don't see it taught at

736
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: all that the scriptures are corrupted in any way when

737
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: it refers to the people of the book or the

738
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 2: scriptures of the Jews and Christians. That's the tension. Is

739
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: that a fair summary.

740
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does say that there's distortion of the

741
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: previous scriptures, but if you look at it, it's uh.

742
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: And Muslims will quote these, they'll say, yeah, it says

743
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: the Jews and Christians distort their scriptures and talks the

744
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: book behind their backs and this and that these are

745
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: all about Jews, And the actual condemnation against Jews and

746
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: Christians in the Quran is that we distort the we

747
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: distort our scriptures, We misinterpret and misrepresent and distort our

748
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: scriptures when we're explaining them to other people. Because this

749
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: is a mostly illiterate society. So you had the people,

750
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: you had the few people who can read, but they're

751
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: the ones educating everyone else who can't read. And so

752
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: the criticism against Jews and Christians is that the people

753
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: sort of in a position of power, they're lying about

754
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: what's in the scriptures. There's no condemnation of the text

755
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: of the scriptures. It's what Jews and Christians are saying

756
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 1: about scriptures that's the problem. And so the condemnation in

757
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: Kuran is Jews and Christians aren't following their scriptures because

758
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: they've been lied to about their scriptures, and so they

759
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: need to go back to their scriptures and actually judge

760
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: by their scriptures. But they're not doing that.

761
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: That makes sense. So to distort kind of assumes that

762
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: we have an accurate understanding in the first place. And

763
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: that's what the Koran is saying Christian Jewish leaders are doing,

764
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 2: rather than teaching it as it is, which assumes it's

765
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 2: been reliably translated and copied sufficiently, you know, six seven

766
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: centuries later, et cetera. Okay, all right, keep.

767
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: Going, okay, So, and I mentioned that this parallels this

768
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: sort of situation with Muslims being told all their lives

769
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: that Mohammed is like has perfect character, and then they

770
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: find out all these things that don't line up, and

771
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: then they kind of start wondering, well, have I been

772
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: Can I trust these guys? But it's the same with

773
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: the Islamic dilemma. They're told all their lives, here's what

774
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: the Koran says, and then all of a sudden Christians

775
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: start going up to them and saying, well, why does

776
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: the Koran say this? Why does Koran say that If

777
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: a law is trying to say your book's been corrupted,

778
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: just go with the why does he say the exact

779
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: opposite over and over and over again. So some verses

780
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: along these lines. As far as the what your average

781
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: am with some beliefs that the Koran affirms the initial

782
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: inspiration of the Torah and the Gospel. You have that

783
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: in various passages, but easy one to go to is

784
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: sort of three verses three to four. That's where Allah

785
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: says that he revealed the book, he revealed the Koran,

786
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: and before that he revealed the Torah and the Gospel

787
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 1: as a guidance to mankind. So there they'll say, okay, yeah,

788
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: Allah gave the Torah and the Gospel, he revealed it

789
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: and so on, but sadly choosing Christians later on corrupted it.

790
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: Problem for them is it doesn't just affirm that initial inspiration.

791
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 1: It also affirms the preservation and the continuing authority of

792
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: the Torah and the Gospel. So on some verses on preservation.

793
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: You have some verses in the Koran where Allah just

794
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: tells people that no one can change his words. So

795
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: that's sort of six versus one hundred and fourteen to

796
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifteen, and sort of eighteen verse twenty seven,

797
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: sort of eighteen verse twenty seven, says, recite has been real,

798
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: fled to you of the book of your Lord. There

799
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: is none who can change his words. And so Muslims

800
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: will point out, well, that's talking about the Quran, talking

801
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: about the Koran, and it's like, yeah, but it he

802
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: says no one can change his words. He doesn't say

803
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: no one can change his words in the Koran. Says

804
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: it's the reason you can trust the Koran is because

805
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 1: no one can change his words. Well, wait a minute.

806
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: If the reason that we can we should believe in

807
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: the Koran is that no one can change the Law's words,

808
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: But you guys are saying that all of his previous

809
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: revelations were corrupted. That's kind of a weird, like bragging point.

810
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 1: My friend, my friend Anthony Rodgers, he points, he gives

811
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: an analogy. He says, imagine you needed heart surgery and

812
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: you you know, a heart surgeon gets recommended to you,

813
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: and you go to this heart surgeon. He's bragging that

814
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: he's the best heart surgeon ever and he's never lost

815
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: a patient. And then you look into his track record

816
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: and you find out every single patient he's ever had

817
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: died on the operating room table. You're like would you

818
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: trust this guy to perform surgery on you? No, you

819
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: think he's bragging that he's an awesome heart surgeon and

820
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: he's lost every patient ever. I'm not I'm never gonna

821
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: trust that guy. Well, imagine you've got a god it's

822
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: bragging that no one can change his words, and every

823
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: revelation he'd ever sent before that had been corrupted. It's like, well,

824
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm not trusting your new revelation. You're pretty terrible at

825
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: preserving your scriptures. So you you have verses like that

826
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: which just seemed like general a law reveals something, he

827
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: protects it. But you have all sorts of you have

828
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: all sorts like tons and tons of passages that Muslims

829
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: are just like not familiar with, where Allah says over

830
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: and over again that he's confirming the scriptures that Jews

831
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: and Christians still had in seventh century Arabia. And we

832
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: know what those scriptures were because we have copies from

833
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: before that time and from after that time. But like

834
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: I'll just give some references for people to look these up.

835
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: But Sura two versus forty to forty four, Sura two,

836
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: verse sort two, verse eighty five, sort a two, verse

837
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: eighty nine or a two verse ninety one s or

838
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: a two verse ninety sevens or a two verse one

839
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: oh one or a two verse one twenty one. You

840
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: have passages over and over again. This is interesting, and

841
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: it's like, it's shocking. It's shocking that you've never heard

842
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: a Muslim use this argument. But Allah's main argument, by far,

843
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: his number one argument in the Quran for why Jews

844
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: and Christians should believe in Mohammed. His number one reason

845
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: for Jews and Christians to believe in Muhammad is that

846
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: the Muhammad and the Koran are affirming their scriptures that

847
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 1: are in their possession. And that's kind of a it's

848
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: not a great argument. Hey, I'm affirming your scriptures, therefore

849
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: you should affirm me. I mean, that's every cult leader

850
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: who's ever come along. Hey, affirm your scripture, so you

851
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: should affirm me. But it's a it's a way weirder argument.

852
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: If he's not affirming our scriptures, right, if he's affirming

853
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: our scriptures has been corrupted. Hey, you guys should believe

854
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: in Mohammed. Why should we believe in Mhammad because he's

855
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,919
Speaker 1: confirming your scriptures. Why would you go against someone who's

856
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: confirming your scriptures, and every last Muslim will tell you

857
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 1: he is not confirming your scriptures. He's saying your scriptures

858
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: have been corupted and so anyway, But there are passages

859
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: in the Koran that completely just rule out like any

860
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: interpretation of corruption. I mentioned Surah two, verse eighty five.

861
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: In Sura two, verse eighty five, Allah is responding to

862
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: the Jews of Medina, who were they would be on

863
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: different sides of a battle, and they be fighting against

864
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,959
Speaker 1: each other and so on, and so he's criticizing them

865
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: for fighting against each other. But he says, he says

866
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: in the middle of the verse, he says, do you

867
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: then believe in part of the book and disbelieve in part?

868
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: And what is the recompense of those who do so

869
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: but disgrace in the life of this world? And on

870
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: the day of resurrection, they shall be consigned to the

871
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: most severe punishment. So I mean, think about that. He says,

872
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: Do you only believe in part of your book and

873
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: not all of it? If you don't believe in all

874
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: of it? If you only believe in parts of your

875
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: book salnging about the Torah? If you only believe in

876
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: part of the Torah and not in all of it,

877
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: I'll punish you in this world and then I'll send

878
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: you to Hell. And the reason that's amazing is every

879
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: single Muslim you run up to what's the Koran saying

880
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: about the Torah's saying, Oh, yeah, the tor has been corrupted.

881
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: So you just need a find the parts that agree

882
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 1: with Islam. Just believe in those parts, and the rest

883
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: of it you reject. And that's the exact opposite of

884
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: what a law says. He says, if you do what

885
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: every Muslim tells you, then he'll send you to hell.

886
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: You have to believe in all of your book. That

887
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: only makes sense if the entire book has been preserved.

888
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: So that's the main argument that the Koran gives to

889
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: Jews and Christians. The Koran and Muhammad are affirming your scriptures.

890
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: Therefore you should affirm Mohammed because if he was a

891
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: false prophet, why would he be affirming your scriptures. And

892
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 1: then even like the second, the second big argument is

893
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: that we find prophecies about Muhammad in our scriptures, and

894
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: that's seven verse one fifty seven where a Lah talks

895
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: about those who find Mohammad mentioned in the Torah and

896
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: the Gospel. But the verse. I mean, you can, you've

897
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: got to get a good translation. But it actually says

898
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: that we find him mentioned in the Torah and the

899
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: Gospel that are written down with us. So it's talking

900
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: about written document, talking about written and Gospel, and it's

901
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: talking about the ones that we have in our possession.

902
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: That's where we find Mohammed. Now, notice those kinds of

903
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: claims about Muhammad fulfilling prophecies, those only make those passages

904
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: only make sense if our books have been preserved. If

905
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: our books have been corrupted, then how would we know

906
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: that even if you showed us something that really sounded

907
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: like Mohammad, how would we know that's not part of

908
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: a corrupted part of the scripture and so on. So anyway,

909
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: you have over and over again things like that that

910
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 1: it's confirming the scriptures that we have. It's that we

911
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: have Mohammed prophesied in the scriptures that we have. But

912
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: it's over and over and over again that the Koran

913
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: is telling us that we have to believe in all

914
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: of our scriptures. And so that's on the issue of

915
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: the preservation of our scriptures. But then it goes beyond that,

916
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: where again every Muslim you talk to thinks your scripture

917
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: has been corrupted. So what the Koran is telling you

918
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: is that everyone needs to go by the Koran. Now,

919
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 1: not what the Koran says at all. In five, verse

920
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: forty three of the Quran, some Jews come to Mohammad

921
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: to settle a dispute. Allah responds, why are they coming

922
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: to you for judgment when they have the Torah? And

923
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 1: so the message of the Quran is, Jews don't need Mohammad,

924
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: Arabs need Mohammad. They didn't have Arabs didn't have a

925
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: revelation in their language. Jews already had the Tora. Why

926
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: would they be coming to the guy who sent to

927
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: the Arabs when they've got the Torah? So why are

928
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: they going to a different guy who speaks a different language.

929
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: So that's chapter five, verse forty three. Why are Jews

930
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: coming to Muhammad when they have the Torah? Interesting? You

931
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: have the historical background in the hadith, and the historical

932
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 1: background it's in a sundent Abudah four four four nine.

933
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: But so the Jews come to Mohammad to judge their dispute.

934
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,439
Speaker 1: They put a cushion there to signify who the judge

935
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: of the dispute is. Mohammad sits on the cushion. Then

936
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: Muhammad says, bring me the Torah, and the Jews bring

937
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: out the Torah. Mohammad gets off the judgment cushion, puts

938
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: the Torah on the judgment cushion and says, I believe

939
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: in you, and then the one who revealed you. So

940
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: the Torah is your judge. Muhammad believes in it. If

941
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: that's Muhammed saying your book's been corrupted, you just need

942
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 1: to go to the Koran, It's like a terrible, terrible

943
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,439
Speaker 1: way of saying it. He'd be a really really bad communicator.

944
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: But anyway, Jews are told that they have to judge

945
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: by the Torah. A few verses later in chapter five

946
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: you get chapter five, verse forty seven, where Christians are told,

947
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: let the people of the Gospel judge by what a

948
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: Lah has revealed they're in. If any do fail to

949
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: judge by the light of what Allah has revealed, there

950
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: no better than those who rebel. So Christians, you judge

951
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: by the Gospel. If you don't, your rebels your rebels

952
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: against Allah. And as far as the Islamic dilemma, you

953
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: can kind of lay out a bunch of verses, but

954
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: you can just you could just take one of these

955
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: verses and run the Islamic dilemma like wes Huff. West

956
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: Huff just uses that. West Huff just goes to five

957
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: forty seven. He says, you're telling me I have to

958
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: go with the Koran. Okay, the Koran commands me as

959
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: a Christian to judge by the Gospel. I have two options.

960
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: I can either obey Allah and judge by the Gospel.

961
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: But the Koran doesn't line up with the Gospel, and

962
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: so I have to judge that the Koran is wrong

963
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 1: and that Muhammed's a false prophet. Or I could just

964
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: not obey a law and not judge by the Gospel.

965
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: Which one? So I either have to reject a law

966
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 1: or I have to reject a law. Which one? Which

967
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: one should I do? So you can run the You

968
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: can run the Islamic dilemma from like one of these verses.

969
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: But five point forty seven. Yeah, that orders Christians to

970
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 1: judge by the Gospel. Very strange if our book's been corrupted.

971
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: Later in the same chapter, verse sixty eight, Allah commands

972
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: Muhammed to say to the people of the book jewsing Christians,

973
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: O people of the book you have no ground to

974
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: stand upon unless you stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel,

975
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: and all the revelation that has come to you from

976
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: your Lord. If that's him saying you need to abandon

977
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: your books and just go with Mohammad, like, that's the opposite.

978
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: So Muslims are saying, just go with the Koran. Well,

979
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: the Koran's telling us to go with our books. So

980
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: what are we supposed to do here? Allah is saying

981
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: the opposite of what you guys are saying. And it's

982
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: over and over again. So you have these passages where

983
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: allaws ordering Jews and Christians to follow their scriptures and

984
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: to obey their scriptures and saying we're doomed if we

985
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: don't follow our scriptures. And so the Tour and the

986
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: Gospel are authoritative for us. But interestingly, the Tour and

987
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: the Gospel were authoritative for Mohammad himself, not in terms

988
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: of like what he's obeying, but in terms of whether

989
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: his revelation is actually revelation from God. It's Sarah ten,

990
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: verse ninety four. And this one is especially interesting because

991
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: Christians have been using this going all the way back

992
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: to basically within two centuries of Islam. Christians started using

993
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: Surah ten verse ninety four saying, hey, you guys are

994
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: criticizing our religion, but our religions based on this book,

995
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: and the Koran sets up our book as a standard

996
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: over whether Muhammad's revelations are true. So anyway, sir At

997
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: ten verse ninety four, this is a law speaking to Muhammad,

998
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: and a law says to Muhammad. If you are in

999
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: doubt about what we have revealed to you, ask those

1000
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: who are reading the book before you. So in other words, Maham,

1001
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: if you're doubting whether this revelation that's you know coming

1002
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: down to you is from God, if you have doubts

1003
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: about that, go ask the Jews and Christians and make

1004
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: sure that it lines up with their books. I make

1005
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: zero sense if our books are corrupted, like zero sense.

1006
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: So Mulis Muslims like today, think that you've got the Koran.

1007
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: The Koran is a standard, and the other books are

1008
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: down here, and the Koran is standing in judgment over

1009
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: these previous scriptures. You look at the Koran, it's reversed.

1010
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: It's the previous scriptures are the judge of whether the

1011
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: Koran is revelation at all. And so anyway, these are

1012
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: the kinds of things you find in the Koran, and

1013
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: these are the things we keep pointing out. But you

1014
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: put it all together, and it puts Muslims in a dilemma.

1015
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: Different people can formulate the Islamic dilemma in different ways.

1016
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: I just told you, like how west Huff runs it

1017
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, but different people I run it

1018
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: like this. I just say, the Koran affirms the inspiration

1019
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: and the preservation and the authority of the Jewish and

1020
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: Christian scriptures. But the Koran contradicts the Jewish and Christian

1021
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: scriptures on fundamental doctrines Old Testament or New Testament. And

1022
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: so the dilemma is there are two possibilities here. Either

1023
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: we have the inspired, preserved authoritative Word of God, or

1024
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: we don't. It's like corrupted or it's never the word

1025
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: of God or something like that. But it's one or

1026
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: the other. Either we have the inspired, preserved, authoritative Word

1027
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: of God or we don't. If we have the inspired,

1028
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: preserved authoritative Word of God, Islam is false because it

1029
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: contradicts what we have on basic doctrines. So if we

1030
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 1: have the inspired, preserved authoritative Word of God, Islam is false.

1031
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: The alternative is we don't have the inspired, preserved, authoritative

1032
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: word of God. Well, if we don't have the inspired, preserved,

1033
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: authoritative word of God, Islam is false. Because Islam affirms

1034
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 1: the inspiration and the preservation and the authority of our scriptures.

1035
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,439
Speaker 1: So if we have the word of God, Islam is false.

1036
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,399
Speaker 1: If we don't have the word of God, Islam is false.

1037
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: Either way, Islam is false. Therefore Islam is false. And

1038
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: that's how that's kind of how I run the Islamic dilemma.

1039
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,879
Speaker 2: That is really interesting because you're right, the criticism hurt

1040
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 2: all the time is that the Gospels are corrupted, the

1041
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 2: New Testament is corrupted. But the problem with that is

1042
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: the scriptures, the Qoranic scriptures teach that it hasn't been corrupted.

1043
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: So if you believe what the Quran says, then we

1044
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: have to believe what the New Testament and the Old

1045
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 2: Testament both say. Then the question is do they line up?

1046
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 2: And we've got to make the case that they actually

1047
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,320
Speaker 2: don't line up the same. And given that the Quran

1048
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 2: says to Jews and Christians to follow their scriptures even

1049
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: if they differ to be obedient to the Qoran, Jews

1050
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 2: and Christians should follow their own scriptures, not the Koran.

1051
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: So super interesting dilemma the way that you phrase it there,

1052
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:47,359
Speaker 2: I think that's fascinating. What's the engagement on this before

1053
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 2: I ask you? Is it being ignored? Do you feel

1054
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 2: like people are there any good challenges to this or

1055
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: do you feel like it's genuinely just unanswerable.

1056
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: I think it's genuinely unanswerable. And what you get is

1057
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 1: like smoke screen after smoke screen, or you have people

1058
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: like trying to toss up their new response the Islamic dilemma,

1059
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: and they try to catch people off guard, and that

1060
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: might work until people, you know, go through it a

1061
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: little more and look into it a little more and stuff.

1062
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: But no, we've been basically for years. There were like

1063
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: a handful of us who were using that argument for

1064
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: you know, last eighteen or twenty years or so, we're

1065
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: using that argument, but as a handful, and then all

1066
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: like last year, all of like twenty twenty five, a

1067
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 1: bunch of people started using and a bunch of people

1068
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: started debating. And before last year it was kind of

1069
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: rare to have Muslims offer a serious response. They would

1070
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: just kind of dismiss it and go Ah, these Christians

1071
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,760
Speaker 1: are saying that the Corona friends of the Bible total nonsense,

1072
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: and then they would they'd give like one of the

1073
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: verses about Christians distorting their scriptures and ignore the fact

1074
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: that it even specifically says it's with our speech. So

1075
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,879
Speaker 1: they weren't give serious responses for a long time till

1076
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: last year everyone started using the argument. So God Logic

1077
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: inspiring philosophy. Tons of people wes Huff, I mean, he

1078
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: was on he was on some really big shows and

1079
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: pointed that out, and then that started getting Muslims trying

1080
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: to offer more serious responses. But last year we had

1081
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: a we had a bunch of debates I did I

1082
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: don't know, three four or five debates something like that

1083
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: on it. Last year we would have open challenges over

1084
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: on God Logic Channel where we just go live and

1085
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: we say, okay, guys, we're gonna we're gonna bring up

1086
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 1: what Sura two says. Just folks on Surah too, because

1087
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: that Sura two says a lot about the previous scriptures.

1088
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: So we'll go through the entire chapter. You guys, show

1089
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 1: us one word about the previous scriptures being corrupted. Then

1090
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: we did it with Sura three. Then we did it

1091
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: with Sura four, and so we're like really slowly going

1092
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: verse by verse and challenging Muslims to show us anywhere

1093
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: that the Qur'an says, O, our scriptures have been corrupted

1094
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: and so on, and they couldn't. And so you had

1095
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: Muslims kind of realizing what a difficult you know, what

1096
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: a difficulty they have here. And so you've gotten some

1097
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,879
Speaker 1: you've gotten way more responses, and now they're now they're

1098
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:10,240
Speaker 1: releasing like really long videos trying to respond to the argument,

1099
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,359
Speaker 1: but no Christians are catching on and there's just no

1100
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: there's just no good response to it now. I mean,

1101
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 1: just think about it. What you're really telling us is

1102
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: Allah's trying to tell us your scriptures have been corrupted.

1103
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: And as he's trying to say your scriptures have been corrupted,

1104
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: it's like they're telling us like he has like Tourette

1105
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: syndrome or something. He's trying to say one thing, but

1106
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,800
Speaker 1: it's just coming out completely the opposite of what he intends.

1107
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: And so he's trying to say, your scripture has been corrupted,

1108
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 1: just go with the Koran, and instead it's why are

1109
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: you going to the why are you going to Mhammed,

1110
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: you've got the Torah. Hey, Christians, you have to judge

1111
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 1: by the Gospel. You guys have no ground to stand

1112
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: upon unless you stand upon your scriptures. Like Okay, if

1113
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: a Lah means the exact opposite of what he says,

1114
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: then he's like the worst communicator ever. But in the

1115
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: Qur'an he brags about being the clearest communicator ever. So

1116
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: I mean inspiring philosophy. Mike Jones, he actually run. He

1117
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: ran that as a separate Islamic to Lemma. The clear

1118
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: Kuran dilemma is a lah brags about being clear. If

1119
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: a law is actually clear, then you have to take

1120
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: all these verses seriously where he's affirming the previous scriptures.

1121
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: Or if you don't want to take those verses seriously,

1122
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,240
Speaker 1: well then he's not clear, and therefore all the verses

1123
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: that say he's clear, he's actually wrong. So that's what's

1124
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: going on. Now you've got Muslims responding, and we're just

1125
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: we're spotting more and more dilemmas here as we continue.

1126
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 2: Last question, what's your sense of kind of the Christian

1127
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 2: Muslim dialogue debate right now? You may have answered this,

1128
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 2: but I hear a lot of questions, of a lot

1129
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 2: of stories and studies of deconversion in the US. Had

1130
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 2: a Muslim scar On, a friend of mine who many

1131
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 2: consider him the Billy Graham of Iran, and he's like,

1132
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: the amount of people who've rejected Islam in Iran is

1133
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: way more than people realize, and there's far more believers.

1134
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 2: I realize this is a big question in big countries,

1135
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: But what's your best sense from where you sit to

1136
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: in terms of the dialogue between the two, the nature

1137
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 2: of it, and how many are really deconverting to Christianity

1138
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 2: or just out of Islam.

1139
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: Islam is imploding in the Muslim world. You do have it,

1140
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: you do have it growing in places like the UK

1141
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: because of immigration and things like that. But Islam overall,

1142
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: Islam's got some serious problems, So you'll have people converting

1143
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: to Islam. You got a couple problems here. So in

1144
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: the United States. In the United States, this was from

1145
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: years ago. This is from years ago, but it was

1146
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: pointed out years ago that any conversions to Islam and

1147
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: the United States are offset by people leaving Islam. So

1148
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 1: Muslims say, hey, we got we got converts on our

1149
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 1: Dawa trip here and it's Okay, you are losing and

1150
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: again this was years ago. You are losing people as

1151
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: fast as you are gaining anyone. So you're not changing things.

1152
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: You're not changing things, you're not growing. You mentioned Iran.

1153
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: Iran's an interesting situation because all the studies on how

1154
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: many Muslims there are in Iran, if they were conducted

1155
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: by the government, well, you know, it's like ninety nine

1156
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: percent Muslim population is several years ago. There was a

1157
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: study that was done anonymously and they factored in everything like, okay,

1158
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: like the areas, well, maybe there's a more rural area

1159
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: that doesn't have access to computers and stuff like. They

1160
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: factored every everything in and they concluded that Iran is

1161
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: a Muslim minority country. Now, So Iran Muslim minority. Only

1162
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: about forty percent of the population of Iran considers themselves

1163
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: Muslims in any sense. That's that's that's all the variations

1164
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: of Shia's, that's Sunnis, that's Quran. Only Muslims forty percent,

1165
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,959
Speaker 1: So sixty percent of Iran are other things. They have Zoroastrians,

1166
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: they have Atheists, they have Christians, but Iran is a

1167
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: Muslim minority country. Now. There was and this this came

1168
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: from Muslims. Was this was this was also probably six

1169
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: or seven years ago, but Muslims pointed ut Muslims put

1170
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: it out there that they estimate that eight percent of

1171
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: people who are officially recorded as Muslims in Muslim countries,

1172
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: so across the Muslim world, they estimated that eight percent

1173
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: of people who are counted as Muslims in all these

1174
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 1: countries are actually closet atheists who just don't want to

1175
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: tell everyone that they're atheists because they don't want to

1176
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: get in trouble with their families or with the government

1177
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,479
Speaker 1: and so on. But I mean, notice, you're talking about

1178
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: millions and millions and millions of people in the Muslim

1179
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: world who are considered Muslims and are going to even

1180
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: the mosque and so on, who are actually atheists. And

1181
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: so you've got you know, again, you're talking about millions

1182
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: of people who don't even believe in Islam but are

1183
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: still in the official numbers as Muslims. Then you have

1184
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: there the problem with with Dawa, which is their version

1185
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: of Evangeli, and the difficulty there for them is it's

1186
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: estimated that about seventy percent of people who convert to

1187
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: Islam leave Islam within a couple of years. So seventy

1188
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,959
Speaker 1: percent of the people who convert to Islam are leaving

1189
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: it within a couple of years. Then you're actually creating

1190
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: more X Muslims than you're creating Muslims. If you got

1191
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 1: and you you suppose you're like a world champion dalla

1192
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: guy and you go out and you win, you win

1193
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: a thousand people. You want a thousand people to Islam,

1194
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: a thousand people convert. Well, study show that seven hundred

1195
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: of those people are going to leave Islam. So you

1196
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 1: didn't just make a thousand Muslims. You made seven hundred

1197
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: X Muslims now, and so it's like that's a that's

1198
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: a losing strategy. You're creating more X Muslims than you

1199
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: create than you create Muslims. And so these are the

1200
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 1: things that are going on. And what what what Muslims

1201
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 1: have been able to put their confidence in for the

1202
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: past couple decades is that they had the highest birth rates.

1203
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: That was that was kind of the only that was

1204
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 1: kind of the only light at the end of the

1205
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: tunnel for them, because they weren't gaining ground by conversions.

1206
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: They had people converting, but they had they had at

1207
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 1: least as many people leaving Islam. But you had you had,

1208
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: you had this issue that they did have the highest

1209
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 1: birth rates. And so you go back to the original

1210
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 1: Pew research study that show they called Islam the fastest

1211
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 1: growing religion, which they all ran with, and they regarded

1212
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: this as proof. They just looked at like the title.

1213
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: They didn't look at what's actually in there. But as hey,

1214
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: Islam is the fastest growing religion, it must be true.

1215
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: And they actually used this as one of the most

1216
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 1: popular arguments. If Islam weren't true, why would it be

1217
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: the world's fastest growing religion? And look into why it was.

1218
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: They called it the world's fastest growing religion. They called

1219
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: it the world's fastest growing religion because of high birth rates,

1220
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: they said. They said, everywhere in the world, Muslims have

1221
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: the high birth rates. They have the highest birth rates

1222
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: in the Middle Least, they have the highest birth rates

1223
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: in Africa, they have the highest birth rates in Europe,

1224
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: they have the highest birth rates in the US, and

1225
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: so on. And so the idea was, well, if Muslims

1226
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 1: have the highest birth rates, then it's just kind of

1227
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: a matter of time. It's a matter of time if

1228
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: someone if you have a if you have a smaller group,

1229
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: but they're having three times as many kids as you,

1230
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 1: it's a matter of time. It's a matter of time

1231
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: they will eventually outnumber you. And so this was projected

1232
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: onto like Europe, and how's this going to affect various

1233
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 1: European countries and so on. Here's the thing. The birth

1234
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 1: rates have been plummeting. The birth rates have been dropping drastically,

1235
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,439
Speaker 1: and in a bunch of Muslim countries now they don't

1236
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: even have the replacement the replacement number of two point one.

1237
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: So it's basically for anyone who's new to this, if

1238
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 1: you have if you've got two parents, you basically need

1239
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: to be producing to offspring just to maintain the same

1240
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 1: level in the same population. If you don't have that,

1241
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: then your population's gonna drop, or you have to bring

1242
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 1: in other people from other countries and so on. But anyway,

1243
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of Muslim countries right now, you don't even

1244
01:03:55,040 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: they're below replacement level right now. So they had the

1245
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: they and they still do. They still have the highest

1246
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: birth rates in UH in lots of places, but that's

1247
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: been falling and it's starting to line up with other places.

1248
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 1: So this is This is a situation they're in. The

1249
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 1: have tons of people leaving Islam, most people who convert

1250
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: to it leave it, tons of tons of closet atheists

1251
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 1: and so on, closet Christians and all the The only

1252
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: hope they had was in their high birth rates, and

1253
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: their birth rates have been dropping now and so Muslim

1254
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: Muslims are kind of in panic mode. They won't acknowledge that,

1255
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: but we've got we've got the videos of them. So

1256
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 1: in their videos that are made for the public, they'll

1257
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,439
Speaker 1: say Islam is going to take over the world, the

1258
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: fastest growing religion. Behind the scenes at their meetings, they're

1259
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: in panic mode. It's like, what do we do here?

1260
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:55,439
Speaker 1: They're the ones who can They're the ones who started

1261
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 1: calling it the avalanche of apostasy. It's like, we're facing

1262
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: an avalanche here and it's only gonna get worse, and

1263
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: how are we ever going to recover? And so, yeah,

1264
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: Islam is Islam has some serious, serious problems right now.

1265
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: Very helpful answer, David and man. I got a ton

1266
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 2: more questions for you on each one of these, but

1267
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 2: this was fun to my viewers and listeners. If there's

1268
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 2: an angle you think you know it'd be interesting for

1269
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 2: you and David to go that direction. Let us know,

1270
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: comment and we'll have him back in do time to

1271
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 2: do it. Before you go, make sure you hit subscribe.

1272
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 2: We're going to be covering Islam as one of the

1273
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 2: topics we cover here, certainly again in the future, so

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Speaker 2: you won't want to miss it. And check out David

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Speaker 2: Wood's work. You said, as far as apologists, you god logic,

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Speaker 2: inspiring philosophy, who are one or two the others? You'd

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Speaker 2: recommend that my audience follow.

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Speaker 1: On the Islamic dilemma. Chris from speakers corner. So type

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Speaker 1: in Chris Speakers Corner. He's he's been putting out tons

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Speaker 1: of stuff and he's got a book coming out on

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Speaker 1: the Islamic dilemma after everyone spent an entire year going

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Speaker 1: through the Koran verse by verse. Yeah, he put together

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Speaker 1: a book on that that's coming out. Jai and Doc

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Speaker 1: have have awesome stuff. No, this is this is kind

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Speaker 1: of we're entering the golden age. This is the golden

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Speaker 1: age of Christian apologetics dealing with Islam. So these are

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Speaker 1: actually really good times, but plenty plenty of people out

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Speaker 1: there to fall love it.

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Speaker 2: Thanks my friend we'll do it again, all right. Hey friends,

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Speaker 2: if you enjoyed this show, please hit that fall button

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01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 2: on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't

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01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 2: done this yet and it makes a huge difference in

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Speaker 2: helping us reach and equip more people and build community.

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Speaker 2: And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show, brought to

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Speaker 2: you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where

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Speaker 2: we have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual formation,

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01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,479
Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible and so much more. We would

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Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

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01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today and we will see you

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Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.

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Speaker 1: H m hm hm