1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged, 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert, 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened, 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour. 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio, 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history, 18 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and 19 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more 20 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard, 23 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series, 24 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places, 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping 26 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. 27 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: So let's get started. 28 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: Everyone, Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. We are 29 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: here with Greg Guiggle and we're going to continue talking 30 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: about the Reformation. Really this episode we're going to kind 31 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: of talk a little bit about more of the legacy 32 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: of the Reformation and what it actually means to be Protestant. 33 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 2: And so Greg, welcome back to the show. 34 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 3: How you doing. Thank you pretty good. 35 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a nice way to close up the series, 36 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: I think, kind of wrap it up and talk a 37 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: little bit about modern day Protestantism, its roots back in 38 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, the legacy of the Reformation obviously, and some 39 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: of the promises and pitfalls that the Reformation is have 40 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: been enduring after the reserv Reformation. 41 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 3: Let's say, Okay, yeah, that's good way to put it. 42 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's start with some of the promise. I mean, 43 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: I think, you know, we've talked in previous episodes. We 44 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: talked last episode about the Sola's, you know, and you 45 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: had your three questions that I think really sort of 46 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: frame out some of the theological aspects. 47 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: When we think about maybe relational dynamics within Protestantism. 48 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things we spoke about was 49 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: all this sort of infighting, right, and and the way 50 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: you had these you know, sort of back and forth 51 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: against is we're trying to clarify doctrine and figure out 52 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: what the relationship is to the state and all that 53 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: kind of good stuff. Uh, what do you think the 54 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: diversity within Protestantism? How does it provide us with some 55 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: strength today and maybe in a way that it didn't 56 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: in that at that time. 57 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think let me preface that by 58 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 4: pointing out I think people make mistakes when they try 59 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 4: to uncritically defend for additions. 60 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so. 61 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 4: I'm not a Protestant because it's perfect. I'm a Protestant 62 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 4: because it's the least problem of three options. 63 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 3: I mean. 64 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: That being Catholic and Greek Orthodox, is that. 65 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 4: Eastern Orthodoxy or Orthodoxy if you want to use it, Orthodoxy, 66 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 4: Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism. So Winston Churchill once said democracy 67 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 4: is the best worst system. I think Protestantism is the 68 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 4: best worst choice. And you know, it's kind of like 69 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 4: getting married. I think it was John Mellencamp that has 70 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 4: this line, I'm looking for a lady that's never been born. 71 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 4: Part of deciding to marry somebody is finding a person 72 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 4: whose problems you can live with, because there's no such 73 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 4: thing as a perfect man or woman. You just you 74 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 4: know you're going to get a mess. It's just which 75 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 4: mess is livable. 76 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 77 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 4: So I don't think Protestantism is the perfect church. I 78 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 4: don't think the perfect church exists. I do not believe 79 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 4: it will exist this side of the return of Christ. 80 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 4: So what we're doing is we're we're making choices with 81 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 4: our eyes wide open, acknowledging that really what we're doing 82 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 4: here is saying these problems are less problematic than those problems. Yeah, 83 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 4: so I'd like to frame it that way to begin with. 84 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: That's a good framing. Yeah, that's helpful. 85 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: So I mean, go ahead, Yeah, no, I was just 86 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: going to say, like, when we think about you know, 87 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: the beginnings of Protestantism, You're you're sort of moving from 88 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: a more centralized religious institution in the Roman Catholic Church. 89 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: We saw these problems. It means we've talked through the 90 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: different aspects of the Reformation. You see the problems with 91 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: that sort of broader authority, tarian, deeply hierarchical system and 92 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: the really the isolation of the laity we might say, 93 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: from the Word of God that created problems. 94 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: And there were a lot of other factors. 95 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: But and so now you're moving into Protestantism, which has 96 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: a more diffuse authority structure that's going to allow everyone 97 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: to sit underneath the Word of God that seems to 98 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: me to have some really good things and some really 99 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: bad things, right, because obviously, whenever we have these disruptions, 100 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: you're going to end up amplifying the good parts of 101 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: humanity and amplifying the bad parts of humanity exactly. So, yeah, 102 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: talk through the positives of the Reformation that we'll get 103 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: into some of the problems maybe. 104 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 4: Well, the positives are I think you've mentioned the number 105 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 4: one excuse me here. Number one, you have this notion 106 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 4: that the church is not a professional or organization that 107 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 4: is owned by the professionals, that it is an organism 108 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 4: that every member has a responsibility and an obligation, and 109 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 4: the Spirit gives all believers, and all believers are an 110 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 4: essential part of the life of the church. 111 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 3: So this sort of. 112 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 4: For lack of a better term, ownership that comes out 113 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 4: of Protestantism, I think is a very positive thing. The 114 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 4: other emphasis on the scripture in local language, getting people 115 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 4: in the Bible, making sure they're reading the Bible, making 116 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 4: sure they know the Bible, making sure that it is 117 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 4: accessible to lay people. That's a very good thing. I 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 4: think that's a very positive thing. There is a kind 119 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 4: of freedom that comes with Protestantism. Now that's a double 120 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 4: leedged sword. Freedom always is, but the ability to question, 121 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 4: to think, to raise issues, and do it in a 122 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 4: construct where there isn't this kind of radical authoritarianism that 123 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 4: you see tied to something like a papacy. So I 124 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 4: think those are all positive things. It allows Protestantism to 125 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 4: be flexible and it's it's changeable. Again, that's a double 126 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 4: edged sword. There's this kind of Protestant mantra simple reforma 127 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 4: always reforming, the church always needs to be reformed. This 128 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 4: notion that static is not good that we need to 129 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 4: be constantly looking to God, looking. 130 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: To Scripture always. 131 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,559 Speaker 4: So there's this internal dynamic. And again that's a double 132 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 4: edged sword. So I think those are things that are 133 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 4: all positives. I think there's an upside. Again, it's a 134 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 4: double edged sword, but I think there's an upside to 135 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 4: this kind of denominationalism. It allows people to fellowship more 136 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 4: deeply with people with whom they have more in common. 137 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 4: So certainly, for example, there is something beneficial to people 138 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 4: who are reading the scriptures the same way as it 139 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 4: relates to a question like baptism. That creates a cohesion 140 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 4: of practice and belief that has some value to it, 141 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 4: and it does create choices for people, choices on things 142 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 4: that are non negotiables or that are negotiables that. 143 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:01,119 Speaker 3: Are non essentials. 144 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think those are those are valuable. But again, 145 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 4: what I'm gonna be a broken record on this, most 146 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 4: of these are double edged swords. 147 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: So yeah, because let me, let me probe it a 148 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: little bit, And I think you're right. 149 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: It is a double edged sword. I think that. 150 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: So, I mean, we are both in higher education, We're 151 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: both involved in Bible colleges and seminaries. I've done additional 152 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: consulting outside of that. And so I've seen let's say, 153 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 1: the Lutheran seminary system versus the what we might call 154 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: the broadly evangelical seminary system. These are non affiliated with 155 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: any denomination. You can just go to seminary and learn. 156 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: You know, anybody can jump into a Master of Divinity degree, 157 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: whether they're planning on being a pastor or not. Right, 158 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: you can see the difference in the dynamic that that creates. 159 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: And so even within Protestant is and what I would 160 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: sort of argue is that when you get a Lutheran pastor, 161 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: you pretty much know what you're getting. There's a stricter training, 162 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: they have a more coordinated understanding of what they're trying 163 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: to do within the pastorate. 164 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 3: Yes, and I. 165 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: Wouldn't say it's more hierarchical, although it could certainly be 166 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: characterized that way. 167 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: I want to call it coordinated. I want to say that. 168 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: Everyone's in agreement that this is the way the cadence 169 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: of that Lutheran Church is going to go. This is 170 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: in general, what we want the homilies to look like, 171 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: this is what we want the people to hear, the 172 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: rituals they want them to go through That coordination is 173 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: actually really crucial within the Lutheran Church. Whatever you may 174 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: think of it, there is a rationale to it and 175 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: it's quite important, yes, versus what we get in the 176 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: dotted landscape of you know, seminary trained individuals who go 177 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: out from an evangelical church and established now a non 178 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: denominational church where, you know, in whatever city they want. 179 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: This person doesn't have then those coordinated resources to draw on. 180 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: It's all very I want to use a word, but 181 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: I don't really mean it this way. It's consumerist. And 182 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is this person has to 183 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: now go out and find a resource here and there 184 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: and sort of cobble things together. There's not a consolidated 185 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: set of materials that can be used. That to me, 186 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: it strikes me is there's problems obviously with the Lutheran way. 187 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: It can get a little bit too coordinated. It isn't 188 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: quite as responsive. You know, as you add structure, that 189 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: boat's going to be harder to turn right versus what 190 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: you have on the other side, which feels like it 191 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: could be that sort of stereotypical willing nilly you never 192 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: really know where it's going kind of thing. 193 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 4: Exactly those are the waters in which Protestantism navigates. I mean, 194 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: strangely enough, Oh, it's probably been forty, maybe even fifty, 195 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 4: maybe even sixty years ago now. Moody Monthly Magazine which 196 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 4: is now defunct, but it was the monthly magazine of 197 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 4: Moody Bible Institute ran a cover story is your pastor 198 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 4: of Pope, Because that's the other thing that happens when 199 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 4: you have these There is no It becomes a function 200 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 4: of the personality of the most powerful person in the congregation. 201 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 4: So you lose coherence, you lose continuity. So you can 202 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 4: go to a Lutheran church pretty much anywhere in the 203 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 4: world and it's going to be roughly the same evangelical churches. 204 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 4: You really don't know what's going to happen because it 205 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 4: is now there's both an upside and a downside to. 206 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 2: That one hundred percent. 207 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 4: And so I think that's I think, and certainly what 208 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 4: has happened with non confessional evangelicalism. I think we can 209 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 4: say that that is not what anybody had in mind 210 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 4: in the sixteenth century. 211 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: Right, And I think where I think I'm connecting this 212 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: and it wouldn't be obviously it's not the only way 213 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: to understand this, and I don't even think it's maybe 214 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: not even the most prominent, but it strikes me that 215 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: our conversation about the teaching office and Luther's convictions about 216 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: the teaching office have been probably better preserved in a 217 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: lot of ways in a more structured church environment like Lutheran, 218 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: maybe Episcopal, some Presbyterian, right, because they have that more 219 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: coordinated set and can pull people through congregants through a structured. 220 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 2: It's like a curriculum. 221 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: But it's not that a more structured life that's going 222 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: to teach them katechiss yes, right, yeah, versus these these 223 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: non denominational churches which are so loose and open that 224 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: what we what tends to get lost is the katechisis. 225 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: And so with regard to the teaching office, that's where 226 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: I'm sort of leaning, and I've been thinking through this 227 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: issue since we had the conversation. It's like, Man, those 228 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: unstructured churches, how do you build that back into them? 229 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 4: Well, the way that it had historically been held in 230 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 4: my opinion, what's something like ordination, But even that's gone 231 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 4: out the window. 232 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: That's gone out the window. 233 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 4: Yet, so ordination was at least a means by which 234 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 4: the congregant did two things. They identify a person as 235 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 4: being called, and they also identified a person as being 236 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 4: doctrinally sound. Yeah, and when that is you know, when 237 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 4: that is eliminated, then anybody who wants to can on 238 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 4: the basis of their own authority claim teaching office. And 239 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: the reality is this is a function. You use the 240 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 4: word consumerism, and I know it's a loaded word, but 241 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 4: in this case it's it's the accurate word. Who is 242 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 4: the person that can generate the largest number of followers? 243 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 4: And that may or may not be a function of 244 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 4: either called or orthodoxy. That may be a function of 245 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 4: simply charisma. And I think we may have mentioned there's 246 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 4: a scholar out Mollyworthen that has a new book out. 247 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 4: It's called Spellbound, where her whole book it's an academic book, 248 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 4: so it's a heavy read. But her whole book is 249 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 4: about the role that the charismatic person, not the charismatic. 250 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: Kim talking about about. 251 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 4: A person who is a gifted kind of person, the 252 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 4: role they have played in religion in an American life. 253 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: And so a. 254 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 4: Person who has the capacity to draw. 255 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: A crowd. 256 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 4: Can draw crowd regardless of what they say, and there's 257 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 4: no there's no control. That's that is the downside. That's 258 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 4: Protestantism run a muck. That is not what anybody who 259 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 4: was a proud or I shouldn't say anybody, but certainly 260 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 4: not the major reformers in the sixteenth century wanted. And 261 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 4: this is exactly what the Catholic Church said was going 262 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 4: to happen. You're going to get these knuckleheads or these 263 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 4: shucksters or these lunatics who are just and there's no 264 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 4: control who controls this thing? 265 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, because there was no oh sorry, go ahead. 266 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 4: Well, in sixteenth century Europe it was controlled by the 267 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 4: king right, you had state religion, and then the United 268 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: States said we got a new idea government staying out 269 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 4: of that. You can believe anything you want. The only 270 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 4: limit or on religion in the United States is how 271 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 4: many people can you. 272 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: Get to believe you? 273 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so you can set up a five oh 274 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 4: one c three. You can say Jesus is returning to Flint, 275 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 4: Michigan on November fourth in twenty twenty nine. And if 276 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 4: you can get enough people to do it, you're good 277 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 4: to go. And that's that's the downside. Now, my argument 278 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 4: as a Protestant is that alone is not sufficient to 279 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 4: justify a pope. So I'm willing to live with that 280 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 4: in exchange for not living with a pope. 281 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: So just just to clarify that, because I think our 282 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: minds are tracking in the same direction. What I would 283 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: argue is what you have in the Reformation is you 284 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 1: have an accountability problem within the Catholic Church that the 285 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: person who should have been the adult in the room 286 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: was being a child and making foolish decisions, that immature 287 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: decisions about indulgences. They got greedy, they fell into opulence, 288 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: like however you want to say it, that's kind of 289 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: what happens. Yeah, right, And now what we're doing in 290 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: Protestantism we see that same dynamic is that as we 291 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: have these different independent churches out there, their accountability has 292 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: to be suspect because they aren't sitting under a hierarchy. 293 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: They govern themselves to a large degree, and we've seen 294 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: that go off the rails. We've probably also seen it 295 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: go very very well. Right, So we don't want to 296 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: say all of these are bad, but I think, what 297 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: when I hear you say, I agree with you. I 298 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: don't want to pope, but I think then what we 299 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: need to be solving for within Protestantism is accountability. 300 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: The main line. 301 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, the mainline denominations have it to a degree. Right, 302 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: Lutheran Church has an accountability structure that they're utilizing, you know, 303 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: some of these bigger conferences. You know, we've seen some 304 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: of the challenges of the Presbyterian Church USA lately. The 305 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: United Methodists just split, but they had accountability structures. Those 306 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: accountability structures inevitably fracture as well, And I don't I 307 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: don't think we can judge an accountability structure by whether 308 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: it holds forever or not, right, right, So I think 309 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: they were sufficient for a time, and now we still 310 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: have to keep struggling on what does it look like 311 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: to really have accountability within these areas That does not 312 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: for us look like a pope, but it also can't 313 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: look like for us. Hey, we're an independent church. We're 314 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: going to do our own thing. Damn what everybody else thinks? 315 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: That probably isn't the right movie either. 316 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 4: That's yes, I just don't know how you fix that. Yeah, 317 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 4: I mean there is no means now you know that 318 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 4: used to be fixed by denominationalism. Yeah, so you know 319 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 4: you had Baptists, and there was a even though the 320 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 4: individual congregation was independent, there was still a level of 321 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 4: accountability or at least a conversation with an external body. 322 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 4: You still have that with Conservative Presbyterians, you have that 323 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 4: with Conservative Lutherans, you have that with Conservative Methodists. So 324 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 4: that is still in place, but those. 325 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: That is not. 326 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't have the numbers in front of me, 327 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 4: but I don't think that's where most of the juice 328 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 4: is in terms of growth, and and that's a hard 329 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 4: that's a hard case to make. 330 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: Culturally, I don't disagree with you. I think I think 331 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: where we are and technology has amplified this. 332 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 3: Right. 333 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: So in the same way that the printing press created 334 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: sort of fast spread, we're now in an age where 335 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: the printing press is like ancient technology and we have 336 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: these other technologies that are sort of pushing out. And 337 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: I think that what that creates is this sort of 338 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: fragmentation within society where anybody who wants to say anything 339 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: can say it with almost equal weight so long as 340 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: they can find an audience to say it too. 341 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. 342 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: And and we've just got to get our heads around 343 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: I personally, I think the only place I don't know 344 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: whether this is the solution, but I think there are 345 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: two solutions, right. Number one, I think there has to 346 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: be a coordinated effort to bring back some sense of 347 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: the teaching office. I think Tim Keller was on the 348 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: right road when he put out the New City Catechism. 349 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: I think that's we need a new catechism for a 350 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: new age that can sort of guide and shape the 351 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: thinking of Christians across the board. I think that would 352 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: be fantastic and coordinate as many of us as possible. 353 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of the solution. I 354 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: think the second part of the solution has to be 355 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: an individual conviction, cultivated to say, this media environment isn't 356 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: going away, but I need to make sure that the 357 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: media environment is not causing me to diminish the work 358 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: and the care and the community that comes along with 359 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: the local congregation. 360 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 3: Yes. 361 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, but see here, here's the double edged sword to that. 362 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 4: What you lose when you do that is entrepreneurialism and 363 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 4: aggressiveness and creativity and all that other kind of stuff. 364 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 4: Somebody has said American religion is a mile wide and 365 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 4: an inch deep, and that's true. Because we said we're 366 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 4: going to let free enterprise work in religion, Yeah, you 367 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 4: got to work for it, man. And so it has 368 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 4: to stay close to the audience, because if it doesn't 369 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 4: stay close to the audience, it loses the audience. If 370 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 4: it loses the audience, it's out of business. 371 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 372 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: I don't disagree with that. 373 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, I came out an online 374 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: higher EDMN, So yeah, this is a you know, like, 375 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: this is one of those tensions you feel like, can 376 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: you preserve a sufficient degree of quality while giving people 377 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: this education through a means that is was I would 378 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: say non traditional right, and and and was disruptive within 379 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: the system, And. 380 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: So I think it can be done. I think on 381 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: some levels. 382 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: When we see these entrepreneurial ventures go, my big concern 383 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: with most of them is are we exercising any sort 384 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: of theological scruples as we do it? 385 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 3: Yes? 386 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: And and sometimes I see that. 387 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't, And obviously I shouldn't be the arbiter 388 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: or the sole arbiter of this, but I do find 389 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: that some of our we might call them, our cultural 390 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: institutions within Christianity are so eroding in their ability to 391 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: voice against some of these things that we've just got major, 392 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: major problems. 393 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 4: That I agree with, and that is incredibly disconcerting. I mean, 394 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 4: case in point, I spent a good portion of my 395 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 4: academic career beating on students about the teaching office, about 396 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 4: the necessity of tradition, about you know, this generation. Your 397 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 4: problem is not access to data. My generation was access 398 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 4: to data. I had card catalogs. I had to go 399 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 4: do three by five cards. I hand wrote papers. I 400 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 4: paid a girl a dollar a page to type it. 401 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 4: We didn't have personal computers. 402 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 3: We had typewriters. 403 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 4: Okay, your generation is not information is not The problem 404 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 4: is not getting information, it's being able to tell the 405 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 4: difference between good stuff and bad stuff. So, you know, 406 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 4: I'd spent how to read a book, how to analyze 407 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 4: an article, and then here we are, and I flip 408 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 4: on Facebook and I watch former students, you know, just 409 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 4: spewing out the stuff from their little echo chamber. You know, 410 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 4: day after day, I'm either posting from the Blaze, Tucker Carlson, 411 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 4: or occupied Democrats. 412 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 3: As if these are objective sources. 413 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 4: I'm not saying there isn't truth to some of this stuff, 414 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 4: but assuming that this is objective sources, or you know, 415 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 4: how many sports figures have I read in the last 416 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 4: three days are dying of some disease. Somebody is cutting, 417 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 4: pasting a brain tumor. 418 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 3: Pray for this. 419 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 4: Former Chicago Bear, he has a brain tumor. And then 420 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 4: you scan the next day and it says somebody on 421 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 4: the Cubs. And then the next day it's the former 422 00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 4: coach of the University of Michigan. 423 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 3: And then the next day and they just I mean, 424 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 3: it's the same article. They're just making stuff. 425 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 4: And then you read THO and you watch and I 426 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 4: know some of these people that are buying some of 427 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 4: this stuff, and you're like, I guess it just went 428 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 4: in one year and out the other. 429 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 3: I don't, And. 430 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 4: I feel, you know, we're making a defeatist broadcast here, 431 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 4: and I don't want. 432 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 3: To do that. 433 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 4: But the other side that is, I think it's important 434 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 4: that people begin. 435 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 3: To stop, just stop. 436 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 4: Where did this come from? 437 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 3: But who? 438 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 4: I used to make this case over and over again, 439 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 4: and I probably got in trouble at Moody. But I 440 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 4: would say, if I have to choose between my pastor 441 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 4: and the guy who's speaking in chapel, that's a no brainer. 442 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 4: I have a coven relationship with my pastor. 443 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: I don't know. 444 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 4: Who this guy is speaking in chapel. I don't know 445 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 4: what are his credentials somebody you know. And that doesn't 446 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 4: mean I can't be edified and I won't listen or 447 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 4: you know. 448 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: But you have a different relationship with that guy than 449 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: you do your pastor. And so it's a it's a 450 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: different world that we swim in. And I don't I 451 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: actually don't think what we're saying is defeatist. What I 452 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: think we're saying is at least what I would say. 453 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: We have to start somewhere. We can't continue to sit 454 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: back and think this is going to get fixed with 455 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: better information, literacy, you know, skills. I think that's part 456 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: of the solution. But at the end of the day, 457 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: what has to be rebuilt is the teaching office. 458 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: Yes, and that. 459 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 4: That is Protestant, Yeah, to pull this thing back and 460 00:28:53,960 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 4: is not Protestant in the sixteenth century Protestant movement is 461 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 4: not saying that every single individual has equal authority to 462 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 4: interpret the text as they see fit. They believed in 463 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 4: the teaching office every single person has has the right 464 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 4: to engage the Bible. Right, but everybody is not called 465 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 4: to be a teacher. 466 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 3: But and there have to be. 467 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: There have to be limits and boundaries that help people 468 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: understand as they're engaging the Bible, help them understand it 469 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: in appropriate fashion. Yes, not that it's like, hey, this 470 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: verse has to mean this thing, right, That's not what 471 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: the teaching office does. The teaching office provides a shape 472 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: and a context, we can almost say, within which reading 473 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: the Bible remains a faithful activity that seeks to where 474 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: somebody seeks to sit under the authority of that scripture, 475 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,959 Speaker 1: as opposed to, you know, claiming in a authority for 476 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: themselves that they don't have. 477 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 4: And that is absolutely where the loss of catechism has 478 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 4: killed us, because, at least in the past, if you 479 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 4: knew a catechism that functioned as a hermeneutics, as a 480 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 4: limiter of interpretation, so you were reading the Bible functionally 481 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 4: with the pastor in your ear. And when that is gone, 482 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 4: and since very few pastors preach theological method of sermons anymore. 483 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 3: I've done exposition. 484 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 4: But hardly anybody does theological or teaches people to think 485 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 4: theologically models it in the pulpit. So here we are, 486 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 4: and I think that's we resonate on. And that is 487 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 4: not a Protestant thing that is not a that's not 488 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 4: the way Protestantism should be. 489 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: Right, We've gone off the rails there, and so almost 490 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: what I would say, just to end this on a 491 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: positive note, would be to say, yeah, be more careful 492 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: about what you're looking at, be more careful about what 493 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: you're consuming and creating. Recognize that that when you're throwing 494 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,959 Speaker 1: stuff out on social media, you are in some at 495 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: least minor way participating as a teacher of others, Like 496 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: I have difficulty believing that that's not the case, right, 497 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: and so take that seriously, like, I think that's a 498 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's some minimal things that we could do. 499 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: I like when I do consulting, I do near term, midterm, 500 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: and long term, right, and so the mid near term, 501 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: watch what you're watch what you're consuming, watch what you're creating, 502 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: simple as that, right, you know. And then long term 503 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: we've got to look at re establishing the teaching office. 504 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: That just has to be like, what does it look 505 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: like for your church to pick up a catechy and 506 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: actually run people through it? What does it look like 507 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: for your church to and even if it's just your church, 508 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: maybe partnering with other churches doing this, you know, that 509 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: to me is a long term activity that all of 510 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: us have to commit to. But that is the way 511 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: out of this situation in my estimation. 512 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have occasionally online just posted I just want 513 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 4: to remember. I just want everybody who's writing this stuff 514 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 4: to remember. Number one, God hates liars and God hates slander. Yeah, 515 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 4: and everything you post online is subject to thou shalt 516 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 4: not bear false witness. And if you think you're not 517 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 4: going to answer to the thrice Holy God for what 518 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 4: you put on social media, you're wrong. I don't care 519 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 4: if you agree with me or not. You're going to 520 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 4: explain to God why you thought it was okay to 521 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: post this political thing that is not true because it 522 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 4: was important for your side to win this little argument, 523 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 4: or that you didn't bother to look up to see 524 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 4: whether or not it was true, because it's important for 525 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 4: your side to win this little argument. 526 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I focus, most of my focus has 527 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: been more on what I call ambulance chasing content. 528 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 3: Right. 529 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: I've heard it called grift based the grift industrial complex, right, 530 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: where people are just sort of benefiting off scandals. But 531 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: when you look at the Old Testament, you look at 532 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: some of the laws related to bearing false witness. What 533 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: you see is that when you bear false witness, you 534 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: take on the penalty that you are seeking to get 535 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: put on to someone else. And we have largely lost 536 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: that accountability loop. We have no sense in which a 537 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: journalist or quasi journalist or blogger or whoever right content creator, 538 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: when they put out something false, there is zero implications 539 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: for them until they do something so egregious that they 540 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: lose followers. They have no real skin in the game whatsoever. 541 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: And I think it's just a we we missed that 542 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: aspect of it. We need to be far more careful 543 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: in who we're critiquing, how we're critiquing them, and making 544 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: sure that the stuff we're putting out is sufficiently true 545 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: and edifying that it can qualify as good teaching for 546 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: the church. 547 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 4: I did a Sunday school class in some seven. It's 548 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 4: about David being slandered. 549 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 550 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I stood up and I held up my 551 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 4: phone and I said, ladies and gentlemen, you know what 552 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 4: this is. This is a weapon of mass destruction. Yeah, 553 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 4: you can destroy people. And if you think, I mean, 554 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 4: just let's just read what David says. Yeah, and let's 555 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,959 Speaker 4: just go through the Bible, and see what God says 556 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 4: about people who slander. Yeah, well you know, well, well 557 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 4: he's pro abortion, and if you want to argue that point, 558 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 4: argue that point. But that doesn't give you the right 559 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 4: to lie about him about something else, right, you know, 560 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 4: it just doesn't. 561 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: Slander doesn't not. Slandering doesn't mean we can't disagree with someone. 562 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: It means that we we disagree with them in an 563 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: appropriate manner, and we do not you know, pull them 564 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 1: in at hominem arguments, you know, arguments against the person. 565 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: They don't they don't have to be evil people. The 566 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: whole the view that we don't happen to agree with, yep, 567 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: And so we've got to be more careful with that. 568 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: This has been helpful. 569 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: I think we're catching a dynamic of Protestantism that is 570 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: is both the fuel that we need to continue growing 571 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: the church and the fuel that if we're not careful, 572 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: we'll burn ourselves with the process. 573 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 3: Right. 574 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: I don't think the church ever goes away, and so 575 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: it's not a if we don't stop this, the church 576 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: is going to you know, be consumed with fire or 577 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: something crazy like that. It's just that this is probably 578 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: not going to be the most effective use. If we're 579 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 1: trying to heat our churches, throwing gas on the floor 580 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: is not the best move, right, right. We need to 581 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: keep that fire contained and put it in an appropriate 582 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: place so that you know, Okay, the occasional spark jumps 583 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: out and there's a problem that's going to happen. But 584 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: just spreading you know, gas all over the floor and 585 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: heating the walls, you know, heating the church by burning 586 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: the walls is not a good plan. And so we've 587 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: we've got to be somewhere in between there and continually 588 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: working to. 589 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 2: Contain some of these. 590 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: More exaggerated we could call them gestures toward independence that 591 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: I think maybe Protestantism engenders, but then also recognizing that 592 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: this is a very key aspect of what it means 593 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: to be Protestant, that entrepreneurial spirit, that autonomy, you know, 594 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: that push, but autonomy doesn't mean no accountability. Well said, 595 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: all right, Well we're going to close it out here. 596 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: You know, we'll be back with more episodes. We're doing 597 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: the Great Awakening series later this year. We're going to 598 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 1: do some stuff on the Swiss Reformation, and just want 599 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: to encourage folks to go check out Ktelli's you can 600 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: you can see the I've got a link in the 601 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: show description for Katellis. It's Greg's travel company. And so 602 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: we do trips over to Germany and we talk German 603 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: Reformation as well as World War Two. Now neither of 604 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: us we didn't really get into World War two and 605 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: those kind of things. There's another gentleman, Michael McDuffie, who 606 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: handles a lot more of that than either Greg or 607 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: I do. But that tour does the German Reformation plus 608 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,439 Speaker 1: World War Two. I just encourage you to check it out. 609 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: There's one coming up in May. You can sign up for. 610 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: These are relatively inexpensive trips. They're called tours for ten 611 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: because you basically we pile into a couple of vans. 612 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: It's really comfortable and Greg and I drive, Mike is 613 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: sort of around and you've got a three to one 614 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: ratio essentially to talk with people who are knowledgeable about 615 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: these subjects and just enjoy your time in Germany. So 616 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 1: my encourage movie to check that out. Click the link, 617 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: check out the site there and if you've got the 618 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: time in May, we chuer love to have you. So 619 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 1: we are also doing a Switzerland trip later in the year. 620 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: There's still spot left in that trip. And Greg is 621 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: going to England, jolly old England to do C. S. 622 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: Lewis and Whitfield. 623 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 3: Field and Wesley and George Mueller. 624 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 2: George Mueller. 625 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 3: Yeah so yeah. 626 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 4: So Germany we do the Holocaust, which is a wonderful 627 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,720 Speaker 4: way to talk about civil responsibility, et cetera, et cetera. 628 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,280 Speaker 4: Switzerland we do a lot of church and state stuff 629 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 4: because now we're into Antabaptists, Amish, those sorts of folks, 630 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 4: Mennonites as long as well as John Calvin of course, 631 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 4: and a guy named Zwingley who some of you may 632 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,439 Speaker 4: know something about. And then England we do the the 633 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 4: English Reformation, Henry the Eighth, et cetera, John Wesley, George Whitfield, 634 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,439 Speaker 4: and then C. S. Lewis, J R. R. Tolkien and 635 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 4: George Mueller. And that's what Jerry Rude, who's been on 636 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 4: Jerry and I have been on with you before, and 637 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 4: Jerry is encyclopedic and dynamic. 638 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 3: When it comes to Cus Lewis. 639 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 4: So if you're interested in that, join us. 640 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: I'll put the link to that episode in the show 641 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: notes as well here, so you can reach out and 642 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: do that that was one of the that was pretty 643 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: popular episodes, so you'll probably enjoy that if you haven't. 644 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 3: Listened to it yet. 645 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: But Greg all was a pleasure. This has been a 646 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,919 Speaker 1: great series. I've learned a lot. I always enjoy going 647 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: back through this time period. I think it does help 648 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: frame out what we're doing today and really important topic 649 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: and I think you just get more of this when 650 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: you get over actually in Germany. So absolutely, Yeah, being 651 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: in place and talking about these things, seeing the sites, 652 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: understanding where it happened really crucial. And so just encourage 653 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: you to check out the site and the trip. But 654 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: thanks for listening to the series, Thanks for listening to 655 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: this episode, and we'll catch you on the next one. 656 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 2: Take care of everybody. 657 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:44,959 Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team 658 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 659 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 660 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 661 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,399 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.