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Speaker 1: Life audio. When you have been hurt deeply, you change great. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you become more thoughtful, more compassionate, more caring. That is

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Speaker 1: the making of a good shepherd, everybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited to be in studio with really a

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Speaker 2: living legend, one of the greatest Bible teachers of all time,

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Speaker 2: one that has been a blessing to me for decades.

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Speaker 2: I've listened to him his radio show, of course, his

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Speaker 2: podcast a much more. He's a prolific author. He's on

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Speaker 2: two thousand radio stations. Insight for Living is the name

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Speaker 2: of his program. I'm here with Pastor Chuck Lundall.

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Speaker 1: How long have we known each other?

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Speaker 2: Oh? My goodness, Well, eh, I did in the early seventies,

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Speaker 2: maybe the eighties. It could have been the early seventies,

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Speaker 2: the eighties. I mean, I've been listening to you. I've

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Speaker 2: been listening to you so long. I remember when your

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Speaker 2: radio show was called new Standards. Well you do go back, yeah,

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Speaker 2: then you became Insight that it.

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Speaker 1: Was nineteen seventy seven, yes, and then seventy nine we

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Speaker 1: changed an Insight for Livings.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, But to this day I listened to you

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Speaker 2: all the time. I hate to say this, don't take

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Speaker 2: it the wrong way. But I listened to you, and

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Speaker 2: you put me to sleep. Okay, but in the best

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Speaker 2: way possible.

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Speaker 1: A people jump me that all the time. But I said,

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Speaker 1: young put people to sleep. I'm like my ANESTHESIOLI. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they go right.

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Speaker 2: Out, man, Yeah no, But it's you're you know, you're teaching.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I believe, Chuck, And I've said this publicly.

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Speaker 2: I believe that you were the greatest living preacher that

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Speaker 2: I know. I mean, I mean, it's hard to say

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Speaker 2: the greatest because we all have certain preachers we love

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Speaker 2: for different reasons. But but just kind of you've only.

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Speaker 1: Heard about three or four so on one of it.

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Speaker 2: I've heard many preachers, many preachers. I love to listen,

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Speaker 2: you know, though I am a preacher, I love to

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Speaker 2: listen to preaching. Yep. And I love to read. And

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Speaker 2: a lot a lot of the people I listen to

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Speaker 2: are no longer alive, you know. I love to I

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Speaker 2: found some guy that does an AI version of Spurgeon sermons,

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Speaker 2: so it's like, you know, it's reading the sermons of

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Speaker 2: Spurgeon and they're so rich and deep.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know. But I'm a Spursian fan too.

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Speaker 1: I've got about. I don't have everything he's written, but

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Speaker 1: I've got a number of the v he wrote.

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Speaker 2: Well, I feel what you do so well. And there's

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Speaker 2: a phrase you use, you offer theology without apology. I

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Speaker 2: like that, yep, because you have content. It's biblically rich

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Speaker 2: and deep. But it's I've always found you to be

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Speaker 2: very practical. Fact. There's a joke told that I've tried

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Speaker 2: to tell on five occasions and it bombs every time.

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Speaker 2: And for some reason, this joke works for you, but

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Speaker 2: when I tell it, it doesn't work. And I want

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Speaker 2: to tell you what the joke is. It's a story

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Speaker 2: about the guy who fell in love with the opera singer.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And I think his in telling that, people

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Speaker 2: think it's a true story. Oh yeah, and they start

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Speaker 2: feeling better. Tell us that joke.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he fell in love with the opera singer.

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Speaker 2: And yeah.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe her starting the present this interview like this,

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Speaker 1: but I'll tell it. He fell in love with this

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Speaker 1: lady and he kept going to the opera and more

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Speaker 1: she sang one opera after another. Yeah, And finally he

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Speaker 1: asked her, would you consider going out with me? And

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Speaker 1: she said yes, and they fell in love and he

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Speaker 1: got married. Yeah, just almost in a whirlwind.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Well, the night of the first night together, she pulled

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Speaker 1: out a false eye and put it in a little box,

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Speaker 1: and pulled out her both set top and lower and

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Speaker 1: upper teeth and put them in another box. And she

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Speaker 1: pulled off a prosthetic leg and popped it in the

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Speaker 1: frame that she had for it. And I think she

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Speaker 1: had hearing age she had to take out. And he

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Speaker 1: looked at her, he said.

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Speaker 2: Hey, lady, sing sing, Yes, so I told that you.

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Speaker 1: Didn't that funny.

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Speaker 2: But it's hilarious. But it's a little twisted, and that's

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Speaker 2: why I like it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta be careful because there are people there

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Speaker 1: with prosthetic Yeah, that's it. I think the glass eyes.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm telling the true story in the pumps,

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Speaker 2: but I haven't given up. I'm gonna keep trying to

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Speaker 2: tell it. But you seem to be able to tell.

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Speaker 1: It about it, Well, some of my jokes are a

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Speaker 1: little risky, so you gotta be careful that. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: I got to California and you and you'd lived there

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Speaker 1: all your life, yes, and I got there in seventy one,

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Speaker 1: so we got underway in that north central heart of

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Speaker 1: Orange County. Yes, and I was there for the explosion

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Speaker 1: and you were too, You were part of the explosion.

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Speaker 1: And I want to go back. Yes, in your life

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Speaker 1: very early, tell us sort of a quick and dirty

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Speaker 1: analysis of your beginning, your home, your world, when you

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Speaker 1: were lost. Yeah, and how you became a Christian.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I was born in nineteen fifty two. I

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Speaker 2: didn't find out till much later that because there was

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Speaker 2: a man's name on my birth certificate that I found

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Speaker 2: out later was not my biological father, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: I was the product of a one night's stand. My

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Speaker 2: mother was incredibly beautiful, and Chuck, that's why I'm so handsome.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I wondered what it was. Yeah, boy, that's great.

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Speaker 2: Now. She my mother was literally a dead ringer for

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Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe. And I'm not exaggerating oh much. She really was.

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Speaker 2: She was a man magnet. So she was married and

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Speaker 2: divorced seven times. And she was from a Southern Baptist family,

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Speaker 2: raised going to the church, but she was the prodigal

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Speaker 2: child and she went out and got married over and

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Speaker 2: over again. So she had a fling in Long Beach

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Speaker 2: and I was conceived, and so she married a man

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Speaker 2: quickly put his name on my birth certificate and I

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Speaker 2: found that out much later. But she was also a

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Speaker 2: raging alcoholic. And when I say an alcoholic, I mean

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Speaker 2: she drank to access every night where she would pass out.

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Speaker 2: So in many ways, I had to grow up quickly

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Speaker 2: and become the almost like the adult, even though I

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Speaker 2: was a child.

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Speaker 1: Are you the only child?

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Speaker 2: Well, I have a half brother, but he was not

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Speaker 2: with us for most of my childhood. He lived with

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Speaker 2: his father. So you kind of raise yourself in many

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Speaker 2: ways I did. I jokingly tell people, you know, I

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Speaker 2: was raised by wolves, and I mean I had no

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Speaker 2: one to teach me anything, so I had to fend

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Speaker 2: for myself. I learned to think for myself. It was

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Speaker 2: I had to develop survival skills, and I had to

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Speaker 2: look up for my mother because she would drive really drunk.

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Speaker 2: In fact, one night I wasn't with her. This night,

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Speaker 2: she drove over the median into an oncoming lane in

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Speaker 2: the steering wheel almost cut her in half, and she

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Speaker 2: almost died. But she you know, she just lived this

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Speaker 2: tumultuous life. But you know, you look back and you

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Speaker 2: realize that you know, got had a plan for us

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Speaker 2: even before we were born. And I can see, like

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Speaker 2: the Sama says, in my mother's womb, you formed me.

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Speaker 2: And I can see that even the bad things that

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Speaker 2: happened to me in my life were preparing me for

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Speaker 2: what I needed to do, which was to see my

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Speaker 2: need for Christ, which happened at the age of seventeen.

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Speaker 2: So fast forward, I unfortunately followed on my mother's footsteps.

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Speaker 2: I was drinking myself partying. Then I got into drugs,

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Speaker 2: and it was even before I was a Christian. I

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Speaker 2: knew drugs was a dead end. I didn't want to

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Speaker 2: go that way, and it was almost like process of elimination,

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Speaker 2: chuck like, well, I know the answer is none on

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Speaker 2: my mother's lifestyle. I know the answer isn't the lifestyle

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Speaker 2: I've chosen.

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Speaker 1: What is it?

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Speaker 2: And on my high school campus, the Jesus Movement was

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Speaker 2: happening and all these young kids were coming to Christ.

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Speaker 2: And I happened upon one of their meetings on the

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Speaker 2: front line of my high school campus, Newport Harbor High

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Speaker 2: School in Newport Beach, and there was they were singing

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Speaker 2: worship songs and right there at school. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 2: found that an interesting thing. Normally they meant in the

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Speaker 2: science room at lunchtime for their little Bible study, but

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Speaker 2: the air conditioner broke that day, so they went outside

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Speaker 2: on the front lawn. I would have never gone into

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Speaker 2: a classroom to see this. I came across it. I

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Speaker 2: sat down at a distance, close enough to hear what

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Speaker 2: they were saying, but far enough away where people wouldn't

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Speaker 2: think I'm becoming a Christian, because I had no intention

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Speaker 2: of doing that. But I looked at them singing. I

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Speaker 2: looked at the peace they seemed to have. And then

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Speaker 2: a guy got up to speak, and he gave a

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Speaker 2: little gospel presentation, and one statement stuck with me. He said,

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Speaker 2: Jesus said, you're either for me or against me. And

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Speaker 2: I looked at the Christians and I thought, well, I'm

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Speaker 2: not one of them. Does that mean I'm against Jesus?

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Speaker 2: But I knew so little about Jesus. My knowledge of

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Speaker 2: Jesus was watching the ben Her movie. Oh see, it

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Speaker 2: was like watching King of Kings, another movie about He

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Speaker 2: was distant, kind of a glow up there, but I

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Speaker 2: believed he was there. I believed he was there what

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Speaker 2: I knew of him. And when I realized that I

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Speaker 2: could have a relationship with Jesus Christ. This preacher, whose

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Speaker 2: name was Lonnie Frisbee, invited people to come to Christ.

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Speaker 2: I went forward and I prayed, and that was the

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Speaker 2: day that Christ came into my life. Oh we seventeen man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I thought you you you did have a Bible, No,

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Speaker 1: you did have any training whatever in the scriptures.

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Speaker 2: I don't think i'd ever opened the Bible in my mind?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been to a church?

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Speaker 2: I had. I lived with my grandparents for a while

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Speaker 2: when my mother was out running around, and I went

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Speaker 2: to church with them a few times. Okay, but it

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Speaker 2: didn't I was like, didn't click. It was just boring

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Speaker 2: to me. It didn't make sense to me yet.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: So I was just a blank slate, which in some

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Speaker 2: ways was good because I was you gonna have to

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Speaker 2: unlearn something, didn't have to unlearn anything. So good. I

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Speaker 2: had no negative impressions of the church. I had no

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Speaker 2: impressions of the church. So I was ready to hear

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Speaker 2: the word of God, you know. And I thought about

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Speaker 2: a parallel in our lives, Chuck, because I heard Jucy

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Speaker 2: recently that you you know, your brother Orville and your

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Speaker 2: sister Lucy each one was fat by your parents.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: They didn't give you that attention. And your mother even

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Speaker 2: said to you you were an accident because you weren't planned.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what accident. Man. I was about five.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty horror.

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Speaker 1: Five. I thought I didn't just have an accident. You

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Speaker 1: can't mean that. Yeah, yeah, well you're a mistake. Well

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Speaker 1: that confused me even more. When you're young, you hear that,

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Speaker 1: you think, okay, here I am. Well, you know, they

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Speaker 1: had a dilemma because my dad was wild about Lucy

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Speaker 1: and my mother just adored my brother. He was multiply

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Speaker 1: gifted in so many ways. At a concert pianist, man,

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Speaker 1: he was playing you know, the heavy tunes, the real

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Speaker 1: concert pieces before it was fifteen.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and a scientific mind and all that. And here

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Speaker 1: I was interested in football, interested in sports, interested in girls,

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Speaker 1: and some other things going on around me. But none

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Speaker 1: of that was interesting to my parents. They focused on

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Speaker 1: it and it wasn't hidden, it was overt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Was that true in your family?

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Speaker 2: Well, my mom was just too preoccupied to really pay

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Speaker 2: a lot of attention to me. But you know, I

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Speaker 2: think of the remember David, you know Jesse, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: brought out all of his sons before the pumpet.

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Speaker 1: Samuel said, does you have anything? He said, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I do have one more. How many of us would

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Speaker 1: do that? You have all of your sons in there

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Speaker 1: if Samuel's coming from visiting.

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Speaker 2: But David later wrote, when my mother and father forsake me,

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Speaker 2: the Lord will take me out. So I think that

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Speaker 2: in both of our lives, perhaps as hard as that was,

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Speaker 2: that played into what we became and what we ended

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Speaker 2: up doing.

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Speaker 1: You know it did, honestly, Greg Uh, it never really

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Speaker 1: crippled me emotionally. I mean, of course I missed the

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Speaker 1: closeness that many had with their mother or with their dad.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't curl up at a ball and you know,

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Speaker 1: cry myself to sleep. I was never abused or shoved

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Speaker 1: aside or mistreated, but there was there was clearly favoritism

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Speaker 1: that My brother never moved the grass, never did what

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Speaker 1: you know, My jobs were to throw out the trash,

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Speaker 1: mopped the floors, cleaned the bathrooms, especially the toilet and

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Speaker 1: the basin and the tub, and and he never did that.

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Speaker 1: He was busy practicing. Wow and man could he play

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Speaker 1: that piano. My sister and I would do the dishes.

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Speaker 1: And she would say to me, I knew I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have stopped taking piano lessons because he read a new

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Speaker 1: the dishes. Anyway, your story goes on, Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was attending Calvary Chappelin Costa, Mesa, and

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Speaker 2: there was a little Bible study up in Riverside. I

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Speaker 2: was living in Orange County. That's about forty five minutes away.

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Speaker 2: And it was young people and they needed someone to

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Speaker 2: come and take this study over. And I went up

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Speaker 2: there and began to teach it. I was I'd been

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Speaker 2: a Christian two years.

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Speaker 1: You've been listening to Chuck Smith.

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Speaker 2: I've been listening. Well, Chuck got me on to some

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Speaker 2: good books, you know. He said, Greg, you need to

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Speaker 2: get a strong, exhaustive concordance.

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Speaker 1: Good for him.

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Speaker 2: And then I started building my library and at eighteen,

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Speaker 2: I was reading Spurgeon, Martin, Lloyd Jones, G. Kimball, Morgan,

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Speaker 2: Harry Ironside Man. So I got going with some really

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Speaker 2: good books. And you know the other thing, Chuck, because

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Speaker 2: I didn't have any godly adults growing up, I wanted

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Speaker 2: to hang around older people more than people my own age,

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Speaker 2: because I wanted to learn.

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Speaker 1: I found the same thing true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really encourage younger preachers today, you know,

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Speaker 2: to find older preachers and older people in general who've

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Speaker 2: walked with God and learn from them and listen to them.

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Speaker 2: I had the privilege later in life of getting to

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Speaker 2: know Billy Graham crit quite well. Yes, And as he

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Speaker 2: was ending his crusade ministry, I was starting mine, and

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Speaker 2: he asked me to help him work in his sermons

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Speaker 2: and freshen his illustrations up. So I got to spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of time being with Billy in his home

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Speaker 2: and on the road. I can tell you personally, he

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Speaker 2: was everything you hoped he would be. He was down

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Speaker 2: to earth, humble, godly.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, one of the most humble men I've ever met.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Really, people don't believe that. It's the truth. Yeah, genuinely humble.

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Speaker 2: He really was.

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Speaker 1: That's wonderful. I didn't realize you were that close.

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Speaker 2: Well, and so I bet I was constantly asking him questions.

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Speaker 2: I thought, I've been enrolled in the finest evangelistic university

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Speaker 2: on earth with access to the greatest evangelist I think

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Speaker 2: of all time, apart from the Apostles, Billy Graham. So

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Speaker 2: I took full advantage of it. Oh yeah, And I

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Speaker 2: wrote a book about it, even called Billy Graham the

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Speaker 2: men I knew. But he was he was. He didn't

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Speaker 2: like to talk about himself.

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Speaker 1: Though I know the feeling.

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Speaker 2: You'd ask him something and he said, well, tell me

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Speaker 2: about yourself, And he had always changed his subject now

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Speaker 2: and I think that was one of his secrets. Is

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Speaker 2: it was a genuine humility that he had. But so

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Speaker 2: I learned from godly older men and women, because I

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Speaker 2: was also looking for some parent figures, like a father figure,

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Speaker 2: a mother figure, but someone who was godly.

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Speaker 1: So you went to the church, yes, and you became

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Speaker 1: the teacher.

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Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know it was going to be a chrue. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was teaching, and then it began to grow and

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Speaker 2: they started calling me pastor. Well, I hardly felt qualified

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Speaker 2: to be a pastor at the age of twenty. I

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Speaker 2: hadn't gone to Bible school or any kind of school seminary.

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Speaker 2: And I was studying every day and I was, and

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Speaker 2: I have to say, and sometimes I was. I was

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Speaker 2: things I knew that I believed, but I was working

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Speaker 2: them out theologically and teaching them that evening sometimes And

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Speaker 2: so it was on the job training. But this began.

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Speaker 2: I was looking for someone to take it over, and

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Speaker 2: I couldn't find anyone to take it over. I was

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Speaker 2: looking for someone older, more mature, and no one had

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Speaker 2: the time or the interest. And I had this little

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Speaker 2: flock of about one hundred people at that point. Then

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Speaker 2: it became two and three hundred people, and I.

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Speaker 1: Thought that was pretty good size.

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Speaker 2: Man. Yeah, so I thought, well, if I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be their pastor, i'd better start preparing. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: I did the best I could, studying as much as

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Speaker 2: I could, learning from people like you and others, and

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Speaker 2: you know, and here we are to the present day.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it remarkable? His hand was on you all alone. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And you didn't really and you come from that background.

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Speaker 1: The last thing in your mind is you're going to

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Speaker 1: become a leader of other people. You're doing your best

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Speaker 1: figure out how you're going to be led and how

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Speaker 1: you're going to live your life.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, I'm wonderful. I started out, Chuck, I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be a graphic artisan, specifically a cartoonist or did

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Speaker 2: you really So? One of the ways I coped with

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Speaker 2: the crazy life I was living is I would draw

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Speaker 2: cartoons and I created my own little world of characters,

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Speaker 2: and that's what I aspired to be. I used to

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Speaker 2: correspond with Charles M. Schultz, you know, the creator. He

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Speaker 2: would very graciously write me letters and encourage me and

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Speaker 2: are you really? And one time I wrote him, I said,

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Speaker 2: can I have one of your comic strips? Signed? I

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Speaker 2: was so bold, I don't know why I was. And

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Speaker 2: he sent it to me and I lost it. Oh,

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Speaker 2: and I was in some you're going to say, you

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Speaker 2: have it framed. I have a letter, he wrote me framed. Still,

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Speaker 2: but I lost the cartoon strip, which would now be

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Speaker 2: worth thousands of dollars, but not to mention the sentimental value. Sure,

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Speaker 2: but but you know, I when I became a Christian,

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Speaker 2: one of the first things they did was I drew

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Speaker 2: a little comic book called Living Water, and it was

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Speaker 2: an evangelistic track, and that was sort of my first

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Speaker 2: taste of ministry where I was starting to develop not

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Speaker 2: just as a pastor but also as an evangelist.

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Speaker 1: And you're writing now, you're beginning to write yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Not like you though, not like you, because don't you

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Speaker 2: I heard you say once that you would write your

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Speaker 2: sermons out. You didn't type them. You wrote them out?

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, did you ever become a typist?

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Speaker 1: Uh? No, I didn't type anything. I wrote them.

365
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Speaker 2: Now, Well, it's a great way to remember.

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Speaker 1: Well, thoughts disentangle themselves over the lips and through the fingertip. Nice.

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Speaker 1: I'll learned that years ago, and and they really do.

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Speaker 1: And I found if I could push those words through

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Speaker 1: my fingers, yeah, I can make it happen. So I'm

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Speaker 1: left handed and on my fourth finger, I have a knot,

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Speaker 1: and my publisher would always say, let me see that, Nott,

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Speaker 1: I make sure it's nice and big. You would always

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Speaker 1: talk to me about that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you have an extraordinary ability given to

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Speaker 2: you by God, Chuck. And I'm sure it's all a

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Speaker 2: part of how you were raised from your childhood to

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Speaker 2: being in the Marine Corps, well to you know, your

378
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Speaker 2: harder days as you started out ministry. But you take

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Speaker 2: that would just complex and make it understand a lot

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Speaker 2: of people.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I love to do that. Yes, I love to

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Speaker 1: do that. I love to take the difficult and complicated

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Speaker 1: and make it so simple people can say, oh, I

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Speaker 1: get it, I get it, Yes, and they can't believe

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Speaker 1: it's in the Bible when they realize how they can

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Speaker 1: grasp this. I think there's a one of the secrets

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Speaker 1: of speaking publicly is simplifying. Yes, you gave a good

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Speaker 1: quote earlier, now share that with our right.

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Speaker 2: Well, you were telling the story of when you went

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Speaker 2: to a Billy Graham crusade and after he finished his message,

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Speaker 2: you turned to Cynthia and said, that was so simple,

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Speaker 2: and Cynthia said, honey, he knows what he's doing. And

393
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Speaker 2: you were sort of kind of a little perplexed by.

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Speaker 1: Angel Stadium and they were people sitting all around me,

395
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Speaker 1: and I thought, nobody's going to go forward, was I

396
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Speaker 1: roll or what?

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Speaker 2: So I mentioned to you that I saw an interview

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Speaker 2: that Billy Graham did with David Frost, a British interviewer,

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Speaker 2: and Billy said to David Frost, I studied to be simple.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's interesting because you know, if you

401
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Speaker 2: listen to the younger Billy Graham, he spoke rapidly, and

402
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Speaker 2: some of his earlier messages almost were like Bible studies.

403
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Speaker 2: But as later in life, especially when he entered his

404
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Speaker 2: final years, it got simpler. It did simpler it. I

405
00:22:03,685 --> 00:22:07,724
Speaker 2: saw him in New York and this final sermon, and

406
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Speaker 2: he just turned to the crowd and he said, God

407
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Speaker 2: loves you. Then he turned to another section, God loves you,

408
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Speaker 2: and he turned to the others, God loves you.

409
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Speaker 1: Know.

410
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Speaker 2: He didn't have the full capacity he had when he

411
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Speaker 2: was younger, but even a diminished Billy was better than

412
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Speaker 2: most preachers because he had lived this godly life. Sure,

413
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Speaker 2: and he was almost like a prophet of God just

414
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Speaker 2: giving this simplified message.

415
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Speaker 1: Remarkable. Well, you obviously have developed the same thing. Try

416
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Speaker 1: and now you're in this gathering, and at some top

417
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Speaker 1: point along the way, you emerged into a church.

418
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Speaker 2: Yes, it continued to grow. And one day in the

419
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Speaker 2: eighties I got a call from some publication and they said, well,

420
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Speaker 2: as a pastor of a megachurch. And I'd never even

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Speaker 2: heard that term.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't either. I didn't know what that meant when

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Speaker 1: I first heard that.

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Speaker 2: So suddenly you find yourself pastoring a large congregation of

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Speaker 2: thousands of people. It's not something I aspired to do. Frankly,

426
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Speaker 2: I felt that God was calling me to be an

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Speaker 2: evangelist for the first years of my ministry. But then

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Speaker 2: it dawned to me that God had called me to

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Speaker 2: do both. I was called to be a pastor and

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Speaker 2: an evangelist. But I'll say this, I love to do crusades.

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Speaker 2: We still do them today. I love to speak give

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Speaker 2: evangelistic messages, and they're quite different in their structure and

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Speaker 2: delivery than in teaching that. My favorite thing to do

434
00:23:39,165 --> 00:23:41,924
Speaker 2: is to be at home with our church and just

435
00:23:42,004 --> 00:23:45,085
Speaker 2: teach them the word of God. That's my sweet spot. Yeah,

436
00:23:45,284 --> 00:23:49,925
Speaker 2: happy place in the pulpit. You know you've done your work.

437
00:23:50,165 --> 00:23:53,685
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and you know, and you've and you're delivering

438
00:23:53,685 --> 00:23:54,325
Speaker 2: that message.

439
00:23:54,405 --> 00:23:57,605
Speaker 1: Open that book up. Yeah, and you watch those faces

440
00:23:57,725 --> 00:24:00,284
Speaker 1: light up. There's nothing like that.

441
00:24:00,284 --> 00:24:00,725
Speaker 2: That's right.

442
00:24:01,004 --> 00:24:04,964
Speaker 1: Oh, that's great. That's great. Now you you live all

443
00:24:05,084 --> 00:24:11,565
Speaker 1: these years and you've watched changes take place. Yes, talk

444
00:24:11,604 --> 00:24:19,324
Speaker 1: about that if you will. How have things changed in

445
00:24:19,405 --> 00:24:23,645
Speaker 1: the realm of evangelism? Yeah? Is your approach pretty much

446
00:24:23,685 --> 00:24:27,565
Speaker 1: the same or have you altered it to fit this

447
00:24:28,205 --> 00:24:31,565
Speaker 1: particular era in which we live? And how is that

448
00:24:31,604 --> 00:24:35,244
Speaker 1: different from the way it once was you first got underway?

449
00:24:35,524 --> 00:24:40,204
Speaker 2: Very excellent question. I think that the essentials don't change.

450
00:24:40,685 --> 00:24:43,404
Speaker 2: It's you know. I once asked Billy Graham Billy if

451
00:24:43,445 --> 00:24:46,164
Speaker 2: an older Billy could speak to a younger Billy, what

452
00:24:46,324 --> 00:24:48,685
Speaker 2: advice would you give yourself? And I'd like to ask

453
00:24:48,725 --> 00:24:52,284
Speaker 2: you that question after But and he said, I would

454
00:24:52,284 --> 00:24:56,204
Speaker 2: tell myself to preach more on the blood and the

455
00:24:56,284 --> 00:24:59,804
Speaker 2: Cross because that's where the power is. So I think

456
00:25:00,324 --> 00:25:04,125
Speaker 2: you always need to remember that. Berchan would say, as

457
00:25:04,125 --> 00:25:07,725
Speaker 2: an evangelist, you make a line to the cross, the powers,

458
00:25:07,725 --> 00:25:11,365
Speaker 2: and the cross in his death, his resurrection, the need

459
00:25:11,445 --> 00:25:14,565
Speaker 2: for the person to repent of their sin put their

460
00:25:14,564 --> 00:25:18,645
Speaker 2: faith in Christ. But everything has changed so dramatically, not

461
00:25:18,685 --> 00:25:21,645
Speaker 2: only in the lat I've been preaching for over fifty

462
00:25:21,725 --> 00:25:25,324
Speaker 2: years now and it's changed a lot over the years,

463
00:25:25,365 --> 00:25:27,925
Speaker 2: but I would say even in the last ten years

464
00:25:27,925 --> 00:25:32,805
Speaker 2: it's changed dramatically. Like when I started doing evangel those crusades,

465
00:25:33,405 --> 00:25:36,885
Speaker 2: you know, the internet was just coming into place. There

466
00:25:36,885 --> 00:25:43,084
Speaker 2: were no cell phones yet. But today with the cell phone,

467
00:25:43,685 --> 00:25:47,484
Speaker 2: you know, and with the young generation and the impact

468
00:25:47,484 --> 00:25:50,205
Speaker 2: that's had on them, it's a very different time. Their

469
00:25:50,205 --> 00:25:54,124
Speaker 2: attention span is very limited. Yes, I find that they're

470
00:25:54,284 --> 00:25:58,124
Speaker 2: almost completely biblically illiterate. There was a time when you

471
00:25:58,165 --> 00:26:01,724
Speaker 2: could say Noah's Arc or Adam and Eve in the

472
00:26:01,804 --> 00:26:07,205
Speaker 2: garden references from scripture. This young generation don't even know

473
00:26:07,205 --> 00:26:10,044
Speaker 2: what you're talking about. So I find I have to

474
00:26:10,044 --> 00:26:14,404
Speaker 2: define everything as I go. I don't assume if I

475
00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:17,204
Speaker 2: say you need to accept Jesus Christ into your life,

476
00:26:17,284 --> 00:26:20,084
Speaker 2: I don't assume they even know what that means. And

477
00:26:20,165 --> 00:26:22,004
Speaker 2: I find that I have to break that down and

478
00:26:22,084 --> 00:26:25,044
Speaker 2: explain what I mean by each of those terms, even

479
00:26:25,125 --> 00:26:28,844
Speaker 2: accept Christ into your life or you know. So I

480
00:26:28,925 --> 00:26:32,165
Speaker 2: find it's like Paul and marsh Hill. He took time

481
00:26:32,205 --> 00:26:35,284
Speaker 2: to assess the culture. He took time to study the

482
00:26:35,324 --> 00:26:40,404
Speaker 2: philosophies that were popular, and then he used the story

483
00:26:40,445 --> 00:26:43,405
Speaker 2: of the unknown God they erected for the one god

484
00:26:43,445 --> 00:26:45,805
Speaker 2: they may have missed among the thousands that they worship.

485
00:26:46,165 --> 00:26:47,564
Speaker 2: And he said, today I want to talk to you

486
00:26:47,604 --> 00:26:50,284
Speaker 2: about the unknown God. But he built a bridge to

487
00:26:50,324 --> 00:26:52,884
Speaker 2: his audience. But then you know, he brings him the

488
00:26:52,885 --> 00:26:57,045
Speaker 2: message to the Gospel. So I find that I'm constantly adapting,

489
00:26:57,965 --> 00:27:02,324
Speaker 2: and I use cultural references to start, But it always

490
00:27:02,365 --> 00:27:04,884
Speaker 2: comes down to the power of the scripture.

491
00:27:05,484 --> 00:27:09,524
Speaker 1: Where you were when were you led to move it

492
00:27:09,564 --> 00:27:14,284
Speaker 1: into a true crusade where it became harvests crusade which

493
00:27:14,365 --> 00:27:16,405
Speaker 1: is known all over the country.

494
00:27:16,445 --> 00:27:20,524
Speaker 2: Now, well, I was, I always gave invitations for people

495
00:27:20,564 --> 00:27:23,524
Speaker 2: to come to Christ like you do, Chuck and your messages. Yes,

496
00:27:23,844 --> 00:27:26,645
Speaker 2: and we would do little outreach events here and there.

497
00:27:26,685 --> 00:27:32,405
Speaker 2: But Pastor Chuck Smith in around nineteen eighty nine asked

498
00:27:32,405 --> 00:27:35,084
Speaker 2: me to come down and speak at his church and

499
00:27:35,125 --> 00:27:38,124
Speaker 2: do sort of an outreach Bible study for youth what

500
00:27:38,324 --> 00:27:41,125
Speaker 2: you did on Monday nights. And it began to grow.

501
00:27:41,365 --> 00:27:44,244
Speaker 2: It got really large. We were overflowing, and it was

502
00:27:44,324 --> 00:27:47,484
Speaker 2: Chuck's idea to go to a larger venue. And he said,

503
00:27:47,564 --> 00:27:50,084
Speaker 2: let's go to a bigger venue and do a crusade,

504
00:27:50,125 --> 00:27:53,244
Speaker 2: like a Billy Graham crusade. And I said, okay, well

505
00:27:53,244 --> 00:27:55,244
Speaker 2: that'd be great Chuck. You know I could speak, and

506
00:27:55,324 --> 00:27:57,164
Speaker 2: some of the other guys could speak. He said, now

507
00:27:57,205 --> 00:28:00,284
Speaker 2: I think you should just speak. And then I said, well,

508
00:28:00,284 --> 00:28:01,764
Speaker 2: where do you want to go? And he said the

509
00:28:01,804 --> 00:28:06,604
Speaker 2: Pacific Amphitheater, which seated around, I don't know, eighteen thousand people.

510
00:28:07,084 --> 00:28:09,964
Speaker 2: I said, well that's a pretty big place, Chuck, and

511
00:28:10,004 --> 00:28:12,605
Speaker 2: he said, well, we serve a pretty big God. And

512
00:28:12,645 --> 00:28:15,004
Speaker 2: so we took a step of faith and went there.

513
00:28:15,484 --> 00:28:18,644
Speaker 2: We broke their attendance records in the first week. And

514
00:28:18,685 --> 00:28:21,364
Speaker 2: then the next year we went to Angel Stadium and

515
00:28:21,405 --> 00:28:22,484
Speaker 2: we've been there ever since.

516
00:28:22,604 --> 00:28:25,524
Speaker 1: No, that's ron known that in the Angel Stadium. And

517
00:28:26,205 --> 00:28:29,924
Speaker 1: what a great, great crowd you have, what interest there is?

518
00:28:30,324 --> 00:28:32,725
Speaker 2: Well, you were with us when we did it here

519
00:28:32,764 --> 00:28:36,205
Speaker 2: in Texas at AT and T Stadium, and that was

520
00:28:36,524 --> 00:28:39,885
Speaker 2: the largest crusade we've done with over one hundred thousand

521
00:28:39,885 --> 00:28:40,884
Speaker 2: people in attendance.

522
00:28:40,925 --> 00:28:42,364
Speaker 1: It was a wonderful experience.

523
00:28:42,485 --> 00:28:45,805
Speaker 2: It was great. So you know, so, yeah, that's it

524
00:28:45,925 --> 00:28:49,285
Speaker 2: was his idea. And you know you've heard the expression

525
00:28:49,405 --> 00:28:51,404
Speaker 2: if you see a turtle on a fence post, you

526
00:28:51,445 --> 00:28:54,364
Speaker 2: know he didn't get there by himself. Right. So I

527
00:28:54,405 --> 00:28:56,765
Speaker 2: think I look at my life and I see these

528
00:28:56,805 --> 00:29:00,245
Speaker 2: things that God has done, and I just realized I

529
00:29:00,365 --> 00:29:04,565
Speaker 2: could have never done these things. But I know that

530
00:29:04,604 --> 00:29:08,085
Speaker 2: the Lord is on the Door's not unlike you, because

531
00:29:08,325 --> 00:29:10,644
Speaker 2: I've heard you say you never planned on having a

532
00:29:10,765 --> 00:29:16,325
Speaker 2: radio ministry. You never planned on becoming a writing ministry,

533
00:29:16,885 --> 00:29:21,085
Speaker 2: or the chancellor of never DTS or starting a new

534
00:29:21,205 --> 00:29:24,205
Speaker 2: church later in life. Right, that was a very bold move.

535
00:29:24,445 --> 00:29:26,604
Speaker 1: Right. I was fifty nine when I went to Dallas

536
00:29:26,645 --> 00:29:32,645
Speaker 1: Seminary and then I started the church here. I was, well,

537
00:29:33,645 --> 00:29:37,325
Speaker 1: my goodness, I was getting up in years by then,

538
00:29:37,604 --> 00:29:40,485
Speaker 1: and they wanted me to come as president. I couldn't

539
00:29:40,525 --> 00:29:45,045
Speaker 1: say no fast enough and Sidy said to me, why

540
00:29:45,084 --> 00:29:49,364
Speaker 1: did you say no? I said, because I'm not presidential.

541
00:29:50,205 --> 00:29:55,325
Speaker 1: I'm not one of those, you know, wonderful, beautiful minds

542
00:29:55,365 --> 00:29:59,885
Speaker 1: that you know walk around a seminary. And there she said,

543
00:29:59,925 --> 00:30:03,404
Speaker 1: they know who you are, they know what they're asking.

544
00:30:03,485 --> 00:30:07,365
Speaker 1: And I said, it's just I'm not this is not me. Well,

545
00:30:07,405 --> 00:30:09,605
Speaker 1: they came again and I said no, and they came

546
00:30:09,685 --> 00:30:13,805
Speaker 1: the third time, and long story short, I finally came

547
00:30:13,844 --> 00:30:17,124
Speaker 1: to realize that God wants me to say yes, yes,

548
00:30:17,285 --> 00:30:20,765
Speaker 1: and he wanted me to go as a shepherd. I

549
00:30:20,805 --> 00:30:24,844
Speaker 1: could do that, and I shepherded the students. I haven't

550
00:30:24,885 --> 00:30:29,045
Speaker 1: shepherded the faculty. Some of those men said to me

551
00:30:29,125 --> 00:30:31,325
Speaker 1: they never had heard a grown man say to them

552
00:30:31,805 --> 00:30:36,925
Speaker 1: I love you in their lifetime. Yes, And I regularly

553
00:30:37,005 --> 00:30:41,805
Speaker 1: told him that, and that isn't you have to be

554
00:30:41,885 --> 00:30:45,205
Speaker 1: brilliant to do that, right, But you do have to

555
00:30:45,245 --> 00:30:48,805
Speaker 1: be vulnerable, yes, And you have to be willing to

556
00:30:48,805 --> 00:30:52,525
Speaker 1: say that to another man. Greg I've had men just

557
00:30:53,285 --> 00:30:57,844
Speaker 1: weep when they hear that. And when I got ready

558
00:30:57,844 --> 00:31:01,565
Speaker 1: to leave the seminary several came into my office at

559
00:31:01,604 --> 00:31:07,085
Speaker 1: different times and they just cried because they said, We've

560
00:31:07,205 --> 00:31:13,525
Speaker 1: never had someone who really loved us like this, Which

561
00:31:13,565 --> 00:31:17,925
Speaker 1: tells you that's what really cuts through, is it, that's

562
00:31:17,925 --> 00:31:22,204
Speaker 1: what really reaches the heart? Speaking of that brings up Kathy.

563
00:31:22,885 --> 00:31:24,644
Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you about Cynthia, but

564
00:31:24,725 --> 00:31:25,204
Speaker 2: go ahead.

565
00:31:25,765 --> 00:31:28,805
Speaker 1: So you're you're rolling along teaching the Bible and this

566
00:31:29,285 --> 00:31:33,045
Speaker 1: group is growing, and Chuck has got ideas for you,

567
00:31:33,165 --> 00:31:35,604
Speaker 1: and where does Kathy fit into all this?

568
00:31:35,885 --> 00:31:38,685
Speaker 2: Well, I was doing this little Bible study and there

569
00:31:38,685 --> 00:31:41,084
Speaker 2: were these three girls that showed up. It was Kathy

570
00:31:41,125 --> 00:31:44,085
Speaker 2: and her two sisters. And I don't know why, but

571
00:31:44,645 --> 00:31:47,765
Speaker 2: she caught my eye, Kathy, and it's almost like a

572
00:31:47,885 --> 00:31:49,844
Speaker 2: light was shining down on her, and it was actually

573
00:31:49,844 --> 00:31:52,005
Speaker 2: her sister holding a flashlight over her head.

574
00:31:52,084 --> 00:31:54,965
Speaker 1: Not really, I appreciate, But you're also a red blooded

575
00:31:55,045 --> 00:31:55,925
Speaker 1: American boy.

576
00:31:56,125 --> 00:31:58,164
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't want people to think I'm just

577
00:31:58,245 --> 00:32:00,965
Speaker 2: like checking out girls while I'm preaching. But I did

578
00:32:01,005 --> 00:32:05,165
Speaker 2: notice Kathy, and afterwards I said to her, Hey, would

579
00:32:05,165 --> 00:32:08,884
Speaker 2: you like to go out and get some dessert after church?

580
00:32:08,965 --> 00:32:11,845
Speaker 2: And she said yes, and so we went. The three

581
00:32:11,885 --> 00:32:13,445
Speaker 2: of us went out or the four of us or

582
00:32:13,565 --> 00:32:16,685
Speaker 2: three sisters and me. Then the next time I spoke,

583
00:32:17,245 --> 00:32:18,765
Speaker 2: I said the same thing, when I go ahead and

584
00:32:18,805 --> 00:32:20,965
Speaker 2: get some dessert, and she got her sisters and we

585
00:32:21,005 --> 00:32:22,844
Speaker 2: went out. Then the third time, I said, well, let's

586
00:32:22,844 --> 00:32:26,325
Speaker 2: go get some dessert after church, and she said I'll

587
00:32:26,325 --> 00:32:29,565
Speaker 2: get my sisters. And I said, I don't want your sisters,

588
00:32:29,925 --> 00:32:32,965
Speaker 2: I just want to go with you, and so chuck

589
00:32:33,005 --> 00:32:35,965
Speaker 2: we we we fell in love pretty quickly. But there

590
00:32:36,005 --> 00:32:39,925
Speaker 2: could not be two more opposite people than Greg and Kathy. Really, oh,

591
00:32:40,725 --> 00:32:44,605
Speaker 2: we're just the exact opposite. I'm messy, she's very neat.

592
00:32:45,525 --> 00:32:50,285
Speaker 2: I'm usually very close to being on time. She's sometimes late.

593
00:32:51,045 --> 00:32:54,085
Speaker 2: She you know, she's cute, I'm fat. What can I say?

594
00:32:54,084 --> 00:32:59,005
Speaker 2: We're different. But we had three big breakups like I

595
00:32:59,005 --> 00:33:01,045
Speaker 2: don't want to be see you ever again, and we'd

596
00:33:01,084 --> 00:33:04,285
Speaker 2: break up, then we then we would get back together,

597
00:33:04,365 --> 00:33:06,445
Speaker 2: and then we'd break up again. So we got it

598
00:33:06,485 --> 00:33:08,005
Speaker 2: all out of our system.

599
00:33:08,125 --> 00:33:10,605
Speaker 1: Got all the wake ups all the way, and then we.

600
00:33:10,565 --> 00:33:13,644
Speaker 2: Got married and we have celebrated fifty two years of

601
00:33:14,125 --> 00:33:17,924
Speaker 2: marriage together. And and so you know, I couldn't have

602
00:33:18,005 --> 00:33:21,125
Speaker 2: done what I do have done and what I do

603
00:33:21,604 --> 00:33:25,404
Speaker 2: without her. She's my number one counselor and she'll always

604
00:33:25,445 --> 00:33:26,285
Speaker 2: tell me the truth.

605
00:33:26,405 --> 00:33:29,404
Speaker 1: Good and yeah, we need wives for that reason.

606
00:33:29,565 --> 00:33:30,765
Speaker 2: Sometimes a little too.

607
00:33:30,685 --> 00:33:33,205
Speaker 1: Much, well I know, but you got to have it.

608
00:33:33,325 --> 00:33:35,765
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she's been with me through all of it.

609
00:33:35,844 --> 00:33:38,725
Speaker 2: You know, we went The hardest thing we've gone through

610
00:33:38,844 --> 00:33:42,045
Speaker 2: is when our son died in an automobile accidents in.

611
00:33:42,125 --> 00:33:43,005
Speaker 1: Two thousand and eight.

612
00:33:43,325 --> 00:33:45,845
Speaker 2: Yes, it was, yeah, and it was I.

613
00:33:45,765 --> 00:33:48,485
Speaker 1: Couldn't believe it when I heard it. Yeah, everything in

614
00:33:48,525 --> 00:33:52,765
Speaker 1: my life at that moment stopped. I'm serious. We prayed

615
00:33:52,765 --> 00:33:55,445
Speaker 1: for you as a family and sent in as a

616
00:33:55,485 --> 00:33:59,765
Speaker 1: couple because we identified we have two boys and we

617
00:33:59,844 --> 00:34:05,245
Speaker 1: have two girls, and so I couldn't imagine losing one

618
00:34:05,245 --> 00:34:09,885
Speaker 1: of them. It's like you couldn't if you don't mind

619
00:34:10,805 --> 00:34:12,364
Speaker 1: walk through that with us.

620
00:34:13,165 --> 00:34:17,325
Speaker 2: Well, we have two sons, Christopher and Jonathan. Yes, and

621
00:34:17,565 --> 00:34:22,365
Speaker 2: Christopher was a little bit of a wild boy. He

622
00:34:23,085 --> 00:34:26,445
Speaker 2: was always a good boy, but he had a wild side.

623
00:34:26,525 --> 00:34:28,805
Speaker 2: He went on a went for a time where he

624
00:34:28,885 --> 00:34:31,565
Speaker 2: was a prodigal walking away from the Lord. Always was

625
00:34:31,605 --> 00:34:34,645
Speaker 2: respectful and loving and a good son, but he was

626
00:34:34,685 --> 00:34:37,565
Speaker 2: away from the Lord. He made a recommitment to christ

627
00:34:38,565 --> 00:34:42,085
Speaker 2: and was walking with the Lord and had gotten married

628
00:34:42,205 --> 00:34:46,285
Speaker 2: and had a baby, our first granddaughter, Stella. He became

629
00:34:46,365 --> 00:34:51,605
Speaker 2: a very talented designer and he was the lead designer

630
00:34:51,685 --> 00:34:54,565
Speaker 2: at our church in Riverside. He was on his way

631
00:34:54,605 --> 00:34:59,245
Speaker 2: to church early in the morning, about nine oh one,

632
00:34:59,365 --> 00:35:05,845
Speaker 2: and he he collided with a Caltrans vehicle and we

633
00:35:05,845 --> 00:35:10,045
Speaker 2: we found you know, I was my wife was having

634
00:35:10,085 --> 00:35:13,845
Speaker 2: a Bible study with his wife, Brittany and some other ladies,

635
00:35:14,685 --> 00:35:18,205
Speaker 2: and Brittany was texting Christopher like what are you doing

636
00:35:18,325 --> 00:35:21,325
Speaker 2: or something. He wasn't answering, and I texted him and

637
00:35:21,405 --> 00:35:24,445
Speaker 2: no answer. Then I was calling the church. I couldn't

638
00:35:24,445 --> 00:35:26,965
Speaker 2: get an answer. I knew something was terribly wrong, but

639
00:35:27,045 --> 00:35:30,525
Speaker 2: I didn't know what it was. And then people started

640
00:35:30,565 --> 00:35:33,845
Speaker 2: showing up at my house. And then finally some of

641
00:35:33,885 --> 00:35:37,565
Speaker 2: our pastors told me that Christopher went to be with

642
00:35:37,605 --> 00:35:40,605
Speaker 2: the Lord. And it was like, you know, I don't

643
00:35:40,605 --> 00:35:42,565
Speaker 2: know how to describe it. It's like all the air

644
00:35:42,685 --> 00:35:47,885
Speaker 2: left the room. It's like time stopped. I collapsed and

645
00:35:47,965 --> 00:35:50,925
Speaker 2: I just thought my world. You know, I'm a Christian,

646
00:35:50,965 --> 00:35:54,165
Speaker 2: I'm a pastor, but I thought my world just ended.

647
00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:55,965
Speaker 2: Like how do you survive this?

648
00:35:56,165 --> 00:35:56,805
Speaker 1: I have no idea.

649
00:35:57,005 --> 00:35:59,445
Speaker 2: I felt if words could kill you, I could have

650
00:35:59,525 --> 00:36:03,765
Speaker 2: died from hearing those words. And Kathy saw me and

651
00:36:03,965 --> 00:36:07,085
Speaker 2: actually took my face in her hands and she said,

652
00:36:07,325 --> 00:36:10,845
Speaker 2: it's going to be okay. And she doesn't even remember

653
00:36:10,925 --> 00:36:13,245
Speaker 2: saying this. And there's only one person who could have

654
00:36:13,285 --> 00:36:16,205
Speaker 2: said that to me, and it was her, and okay

655
00:36:16,325 --> 00:36:20,405
Speaker 2: meaning not that this is good. We will survive this,

656
00:36:20,645 --> 00:36:23,325
Speaker 2: we will make it, will make it, because I just

657
00:36:23,405 --> 00:36:26,085
Speaker 2: look like, how do you survive this? And even though

658
00:36:26,165 --> 00:36:29,725
Speaker 2: as a pastor had presided over many services, sadly many

659
00:36:29,805 --> 00:36:32,525
Speaker 2: first children who died, I thought, well, I know a

660
00:36:32,525 --> 00:36:33,605
Speaker 2: little bit about this.

661
00:36:33,725 --> 00:36:35,404
Speaker 1: It's quite different when it's your own.

662
00:36:35,805 --> 00:36:36,965
Speaker 2: It's completely different.

663
00:36:37,445 --> 00:36:38,765
Speaker 1: Did you take some time off?

664
00:36:39,285 --> 00:36:43,005
Speaker 2: I did take some time off. I but you know,

665
00:36:43,085 --> 00:36:45,805
Speaker 2: here's the interesting thing. I just fell on the floor

666
00:36:45,925 --> 00:36:49,444
Speaker 2: and I prayed a job like prayer, and I said, Lord,

667
00:36:49,485 --> 00:36:51,325
Speaker 2: you gave him to us, and I give him back

668
00:36:51,365 --> 00:36:53,525
Speaker 2: to you. And people have asked me when of you

669
00:36:53,605 --> 00:36:56,245
Speaker 2: felt the presence of God more than any other time

670
00:36:56,725 --> 00:36:58,885
Speaker 2: in your life. And I would say that was the

671
00:36:58,925 --> 00:37:02,085
Speaker 2: moment that God was with me. You know, his strength

672
00:37:02,165 --> 00:37:06,725
Speaker 2: is made perfect in weakness. And I was just saying, interestingly, Chuck,

673
00:37:06,925 --> 00:37:08,685
Speaker 2: you kind of play a role in this, and you're

674
00:37:08,725 --> 00:37:12,685
Speaker 2: teaching from a distance. I was listening to your teaching

675
00:37:13,725 --> 00:37:16,605
Speaker 2: on the radio and you talked and I don't remember

676
00:37:16,645 --> 00:37:20,685
Speaker 2: the exact quote. It might be a Toeser quote, but

677
00:37:20,765 --> 00:37:22,845
Speaker 2: it's something before God can use him and he is

678
00:37:22,925 --> 00:37:25,965
Speaker 2: to hurt him. Is this Ringabella Tozer?

679
00:37:26,605 --> 00:37:30,445
Speaker 1: Is doubtful? God can use anyone greatly until he has

680
00:37:30,525 --> 00:37:31,965
Speaker 1: hurt him deeply.

681
00:37:32,285 --> 00:37:34,085
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a hard one.

682
00:37:34,285 --> 00:37:35,205
Speaker 1: That's a tough one.

683
00:37:35,485 --> 00:37:35,925
Speaker 2: Yeah.

684
00:37:36,245 --> 00:37:38,485
Speaker 1: I've had some people say I don't believe that. Yeah,

685
00:37:38,725 --> 00:37:44,325
Speaker 1: that nice, God cruel. Yes. On the contrary, when you

686
00:37:44,365 --> 00:37:51,645
Speaker 1: have been hurt deeply, you change. Yes, you deepen. Yes,

687
00:37:51,685 --> 00:38:02,925
Speaker 1: you deepen, you get quiet, You become more thoughtful, more compassionate,

688
00:38:04,925 --> 00:38:14,965
Speaker 1: more care more understanding. That is the making of a

689
00:38:15,005 --> 00:38:22,605
Speaker 1: good shepherd. There's a Scottish saying, some things are better

690
00:38:22,725 --> 00:38:28,925
Speaker 1: felt than tellt people can tell when you have a heart.

691
00:38:30,765 --> 00:38:33,005
Speaker 1: You don't get a heart by taking a course on

692
00:38:33,565 --> 00:38:35,725
Speaker 1: how to get a heart. You don't read a book

693
00:38:35,765 --> 00:38:40,205
Speaker 1: on here's how to develop a heart. You go through

694
00:38:41,725 --> 00:38:48,725
Speaker 1: the heartbreaks of life and out of that emerges an

695
00:38:48,845 --> 00:38:56,205
Speaker 1: incredible world that never had been developed before. Yes, so

696
00:38:56,285 --> 00:39:02,365
Speaker 1: that you have a capacity now that you have because

697
00:39:02,405 --> 00:39:08,685
Speaker 1: you have lost someone so close to your own heart,

698
00:39:09,605 --> 00:39:10,844
Speaker 1: and you'll never forget it.

699
00:39:11,405 --> 00:39:12,325
Speaker 2: Yeah.

700
00:39:12,405 --> 00:39:16,325
Speaker 1: It prepares you to touch the lives of those who

701
00:39:16,445 --> 00:39:25,045
Speaker 1: come with that empty, dreadful expression. I feel lost. I

702
00:39:25,085 --> 00:39:29,605
Speaker 1: feel like I can't go on. I feel like I've

703
00:39:29,645 --> 00:39:35,525
Speaker 1: I've reached the end. And you can say you're gonna

704
00:39:35,605 --> 00:39:38,365
Speaker 1: make it. Yeah, and let me tell you how I

705
00:39:38,405 --> 00:39:41,565
Speaker 1: know you, and you can tell them your story. Yes,

706
00:39:42,045 --> 00:39:46,285
Speaker 1: I love another Toeser quote, and you'll love this. May

707
00:39:46,365 --> 00:39:51,885
Speaker 1: not The inadequacy of much of our spiritual experience be

708
00:39:51,965 --> 00:39:55,565
Speaker 1: traced back to our habit of skipping through the corridor

709
00:39:55,685 --> 00:40:00,445
Speaker 1: of the kingdom like children in the marketplace, always shattering

710
00:40:00,525 --> 00:40:07,125
Speaker 1: about everything, but pausing to learn the true value of nothing.

711
00:40:07,845 --> 00:40:08,085
Speaker 2: Wow.

712
00:40:09,285 --> 00:40:15,565
Speaker 1: I love that quote, Bob. You've learned the true value

713
00:40:15,805 --> 00:40:23,125
Speaker 1: of life and the true meaning of death and grief

714
00:40:24,405 --> 00:40:31,405
Speaker 1: and sorrow and bone deep pain. There aren't words you

715
00:40:31,485 --> 00:40:37,005
Speaker 1: can use to describe what you and Kathy endured. You

716
00:40:37,045 --> 00:40:44,005
Speaker 1: may try, but only those who have lost one of

717
00:40:44,045 --> 00:40:48,125
Speaker 1: their own will say that's exactly the way it was

718
00:40:48,205 --> 00:40:48,485
Speaker 1: with me.

719
00:40:48,845 --> 00:40:49,085
Speaker 2: Yeah.

720
00:40:50,845 --> 00:40:57,485
Speaker 1: Gives you a capacity, a depth, and that may explain

721
00:40:58,845 --> 00:41:03,285
Speaker 1: Greg why even though you may not have had all

722
00:41:03,325 --> 00:41:06,125
Speaker 1: the academic training you may have I wish you would

723
00:41:06,125 --> 00:41:08,605
Speaker 1: have had, or you may not have had all the

724
00:41:08,645 --> 00:41:11,285
Speaker 1: breaks that you would love to have had, or those

725
00:41:11,365 --> 00:41:14,765
Speaker 1: first seventeen eighteen twenty years of your life you know

726
00:41:15,245 --> 00:41:18,565
Speaker 1: at the knee of some godly individ Wait wait, wait,

727
00:41:20,205 --> 00:41:27,245
Speaker 1: You've had the Lord Jesus Christ right there in the

728
00:41:27,485 --> 00:41:36,565
Speaker 1: depth of your life, at moments that defied explanation, as

729
00:41:36,565 --> 00:41:46,125
Speaker 1: you reached in and quietly developed you in ways you

730
00:41:46,125 --> 00:41:51,205
Speaker 1: would not have been developed. Job writes Job twenty three

731
00:41:51,325 --> 00:41:55,525
Speaker 1: ten through twelve. Get this, but he knows the way

732
00:41:55,565 --> 00:42:00,445
Speaker 1: that I take. When he has tried me, I will

733
00:42:00,485 --> 00:42:04,845
Speaker 1: come forth as gold. My foot has held his steps

734
00:42:04,925 --> 00:42:08,765
Speaker 1: his way of I kept it, not declined. Neither have

735
00:42:08,845 --> 00:42:12,165
Speaker 1: I turned back from the command of his lips. I

736
00:42:12,205 --> 00:42:18,165
Speaker 1: have esteemed prized value the words of his mouth more

737
00:42:18,285 --> 00:42:23,365
Speaker 1: than my necessary food. Yes, that's why in deep grief

738
00:42:24,445 --> 00:42:33,245
Speaker 1: you lose your appetite. You're feeding on divine manner that

739
00:42:33,485 --> 00:42:40,885
Speaker 1: comes to minister to you from the heaven least provided

740
00:42:41,245 --> 00:42:46,445
Speaker 1: for you by the Lord your God. I so respect

741
00:42:46,525 --> 00:42:53,565
Speaker 1: you for going through it and being able to talk

742
00:42:53,605 --> 00:43:00,245
Speaker 1: about it and letting it change you. I've seen people

743
00:43:00,925 --> 00:43:05,844
Speaker 1: refer to it almost glibly. Oh yeah, me lost to No,

744
00:43:06,205 --> 00:43:10,645
Speaker 1: don't don't say it like that. Joe Bailey lost three boys.

745
00:43:11,765 --> 00:43:19,285
Speaker 1: Three boys, one is a baby, uh, one older, and

746
00:43:19,325 --> 00:43:24,725
Speaker 1: the other in a sledding accident, of all things. And

747
00:43:24,805 --> 00:43:28,485
Speaker 1: Joe said he wrote a book called A Few from

748
00:43:28,525 --> 00:43:29,005
Speaker 1: the Hearse.

749
00:43:29,205 --> 00:43:31,765
Speaker 2: I read that book, loved the book.

750
00:43:32,485 --> 00:43:36,085
Speaker 1: Joe's gone now, but his son was one of our

751
00:43:36,125 --> 00:43:40,725
Speaker 1: interns at Fullerton, and and and Joe said, some came

752
00:43:40,805 --> 00:43:43,285
Speaker 1: and and then they talked and talked and talked and

753
00:43:43,325 --> 00:43:46,045
Speaker 1: talked the whole time. I couldn't wait for them to leave.

754
00:43:48,205 --> 00:43:53,245
Speaker 1: You experienced that. And some came and sat by us,

755
00:43:55,045 --> 00:44:01,404
Speaker 1: said very little, if anything, loved us, And I never

756
00:44:01,485 --> 00:44:08,445
Speaker 1: wanted them to go away. I love that statement. Yeah,

757
00:44:08,645 --> 00:44:15,445
Speaker 1: I love it. When will we learn say less so

758
00:44:15,485 --> 00:44:20,565
Speaker 1: that you can minister more? Yes, when you get alongside

759
00:44:20,605 --> 00:44:23,885
Speaker 1: people and you put your arm around them and you

760
00:44:24,085 --> 00:44:29,365
Speaker 1: tell them you understand, you're helping them see aside of

761
00:44:29,445 --> 00:44:35,165
Speaker 1: Christ they have not seen before, and you're not saying

762
00:44:35,285 --> 00:44:39,645
Speaker 1: much at all, That's why I'm glad you. I was

763
00:44:39,765 --> 00:44:44,885
Speaker 1: reluctant to get into it, not knowing how you have

764
00:44:45,845 --> 00:44:51,725
Speaker 1: worked it through. But it's obviously changed you.

765
00:44:52,045 --> 00:44:55,485
Speaker 2: Yes, well, thank you for all that you said. That

766
00:44:55,645 --> 00:44:58,285
Speaker 2: was just so powerful, And I know that's going to

767
00:44:58,525 --> 00:45:00,725
Speaker 2: be a blessing to so many people as it was

768
00:45:00,765 --> 00:45:04,205
Speaker 2: to me personally. It's like I was given the greatest

769
00:45:05,125 --> 00:45:09,645
Speaker 2: person counseling session from the greatest preacher on the worst

770
00:45:09,685 --> 00:45:12,445
Speaker 2: moment of my life. And it meant so much to me.

771
00:45:12,525 --> 00:45:14,685
Speaker 2: And I'm going to go back over what you've said

772
00:45:14,725 --> 00:45:17,605
Speaker 2: to me. It was very moving to me. Greg.

773
00:45:19,125 --> 00:45:23,165
Speaker 1: You have depth. You may feel young, you may feel,

774
00:45:23,285 --> 00:45:30,525
Speaker 1: you know, overwhelmed. My opportunities that opened on. God knows

775
00:45:30,565 --> 00:45:36,245
Speaker 1: what he's doing. Yes, God knows what he's about. Yeah,

776
00:45:37,205 --> 00:45:41,645
Speaker 1: he knows who he's using. He not only knows your name,

777
00:45:43,365 --> 00:45:49,325
Speaker 1: he knows the depth the length of those tests. He

778
00:45:49,405 --> 00:45:53,605
Speaker 1: plans both the depth and the length of tests. So

779
00:45:53,685 --> 00:45:57,165
Speaker 1: when you stand to speak, you know what, Greg, I

780
00:45:57,165 --> 00:46:01,325
Speaker 1: don't even have to be told this. You're not important

781
00:46:01,485 --> 00:46:07,805
Speaker 1: at all. You are quietly amazed that they're even there.

782
00:46:09,005 --> 00:46:14,845
Speaker 1: I constantly live like that. I'm constantly surprised that someone

783
00:46:14,965 --> 00:46:18,045
Speaker 1: reads for something I write, or they listen when I speak,

784
00:46:18,605 --> 00:46:24,045
Speaker 1: or or they they enjoy things that I enjoy when

785
00:46:24,045 --> 00:46:27,165
Speaker 1: I'm sharing it with him, And I just think, Lord,

786
00:46:27,205 --> 00:46:30,765
Speaker 1: you're too good. How could you use a kid that

787
00:46:30,965 --> 00:46:35,844
Speaker 1: wasn't even wanted, like you've used me, and like you're

788
00:46:35,925 --> 00:46:45,485
Speaker 1: using Greg, And what an absolute privilege. Stay surprised, Yes,

789
00:46:47,165 --> 00:46:51,605
Speaker 1: just stay surprised. I'm convinced Graham when he stood there

790
00:46:51,645 --> 00:46:56,645
Speaker 1: and watched the stadium field fill up first base and

791
00:46:56,685 --> 00:46:59,125
Speaker 1: then out in the outfield, and more than in the

792
00:46:59,165 --> 00:47:01,165
Speaker 1: in the into the bullpen. They had to put them

793
00:47:01,365 --> 00:47:04,125
Speaker 1: right there at Angel Stadium. Remember yes. And I thought,

794
00:47:05,485 --> 00:47:08,444
Speaker 1: said to Cynthia, how wrong I was when I said

795
00:47:08,445 --> 00:47:12,844
Speaker 1: it was so simple, It was too simple. You're You're right.

796
00:47:12,965 --> 00:47:18,445
Speaker 1: He knew exactly what God would have him say. Sometimes

797
00:47:18,485 --> 00:47:23,645
Speaker 1: we just need to step aside in our spirit and

798
00:47:23,805 --> 00:47:28,205
Speaker 1: let him take it, take the credit, take the glory,

799
00:47:28,925 --> 00:47:35,685
Speaker 1: take the message, take the opportunity. I spent too many

800
00:47:35,725 --> 00:47:40,325
Speaker 1: times in my life saying no, no, I can't do radio.

801
00:47:40,325 --> 00:47:43,165
Speaker 1: I don't do radio on I don't even listen to

802
00:47:43,245 --> 00:47:48,445
Speaker 1: Christian radio. And Alexander said to me, well many people do.

803
00:47:48,565 --> 00:47:51,845
Speaker 1: And he said, can I show you a little sample?

804
00:47:51,925 --> 00:47:55,725
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, sure. Well I took it home

805
00:47:55,765 --> 00:48:00,365
Speaker 1: and played it with Cynthia listening, and I go wow.

806
00:48:01,285 --> 00:48:03,605
Speaker 1: He kind of put it together, and he said, we'll

807
00:48:03,645 --> 00:48:06,645
Speaker 1: be the first broadcast that goes out up where we

808
00:48:06,725 --> 00:48:09,565
Speaker 1: used the live audience. Everybody else went to a studio

809
00:48:09,685 --> 00:48:12,924
Speaker 1: back then. But you're gonna we're gonna use I said,

810
00:48:12,925 --> 00:48:15,565
Speaker 1: you mean all the coughing and sneezing and baby crying.

811
00:48:15,885 --> 00:48:21,645
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, that's real life. And they loved that. Oh,

812
00:48:21,725 --> 00:48:25,565
Speaker 1: and he was so right. I was so wrong. And

813
00:48:25,645 --> 00:48:29,565
Speaker 1: when the dear friend in our church made me to

814
00:48:29,605 --> 00:48:32,485
Speaker 1: write the book for those who hurt, I just spoken

815
00:48:32,565 --> 00:48:34,565
Speaker 1: on it and I said, no, I don't do books.

816
00:48:34,565 --> 00:48:37,765
Speaker 1: I'm got my hands full doing sermons. He said, you

817
00:48:37,765 --> 00:48:40,125
Speaker 1: got to write this book. Whatever it costs, i'll pay

818
00:48:40,125 --> 00:48:42,245
Speaker 1: for I said, I don't know what it costs. I

819
00:48:42,285 --> 00:48:44,325
Speaker 1: don't know how to write books. I don't do books.

820
00:48:44,845 --> 00:48:47,365
Speaker 1: You've got to do this within a book. He almost

821
00:48:47,605 --> 00:48:50,325
Speaker 1: yelled at me, So I said to my secretary. The

822
00:48:50,325 --> 00:48:53,844
Speaker 1: next day, Larry Crusing came down the isle of day.

823
00:48:54,045 --> 00:48:57,245
Speaker 1: Last night he was flaming. I found out later his

824
00:48:57,365 --> 00:49:01,805
Speaker 1: daughter had run away. He was hurting, and he said,

825
00:49:01,845 --> 00:49:05,364
Speaker 1: what you said is exactly what I needed to hear.

826
00:49:05,805 --> 00:49:09,085
Speaker 1: I need to read it and read it again and again.

827
00:49:09,685 --> 00:49:12,965
Speaker 1: I finally found a publisher that would. I was nobody.

828
00:49:13,925 --> 00:49:17,405
Speaker 1: I'm still nobody, but at least I've written a few things,

829
00:49:18,645 --> 00:49:21,965
Speaker 1: and back then nobody wanted to publish it. No, but

830
00:49:22,085 --> 00:49:24,805
Speaker 1: there's not a place for that. That little book is

831
00:49:24,805 --> 00:49:29,844
Speaker 1: still in print. So Monoma Press, a little press up

832
00:49:29,885 --> 00:49:33,725
Speaker 1: in Oregon. John Bendy said to me, oh, we'll take

833
00:49:33,765 --> 00:49:38,805
Speaker 1: this manuscript. We'll make this into a gift book. Indeed

834
00:49:38,845 --> 00:49:44,845
Speaker 1: they did, along with Second Wind Killing John's Pulling Thorns,

835
00:49:46,405 --> 00:49:49,685
Speaker 1: growing Strong in the Seasons of Life, Come before Winter,

836
00:49:49,965 --> 00:49:53,605
Speaker 1: all of those from little excerpts of things I've been

837
00:49:53,645 --> 00:49:58,445
Speaker 1: writing our church under heading of thinking Over. I never

838
00:49:58,805 --> 00:50:02,885
Speaker 1: dreamed it would ever go into them. I'm telling you, Greg,

839
00:50:03,005 --> 00:50:06,885
Speaker 1: I never dreamed I would ever be a writer. Ever.

840
00:50:07,885 --> 00:50:10,685
Speaker 1: That's the truth. I'm not trying to be humble. I'm

841
00:50:10,725 --> 00:50:14,605
Speaker 1: saying I didn't. I didn't have the thought of that.

842
00:50:16,205 --> 00:50:22,965
Speaker 1: And it was like, good night, you're kidding. That's the

843
00:50:22,965 --> 00:50:26,565
Speaker 1: first response when they said, man, these books are flying

844
00:50:26,605 --> 00:50:28,725
Speaker 1: off the shelf. When's the next one, I said, I've

845
00:50:28,725 --> 00:50:31,485
Speaker 1: already written a book, that's the thing. But they want

846
00:50:31,525 --> 00:50:38,245
Speaker 1: more books. You know how that goes, Greg, There's always

847
00:50:38,245 --> 00:50:47,445
Speaker 1: a place for anyone who will truly let God lead

848
00:50:48,045 --> 00:50:56,885
Speaker 1: his life. Stay out of the way, lie Lo, stay surprised.

849
00:50:59,765 --> 00:51:02,645
Speaker 1: We don't need agents. Well, we don't need big time

850
00:51:02,885 --> 00:51:07,965
Speaker 1: people out front. We don't need flags. We don't need

851
00:51:07,965 --> 00:51:10,045
Speaker 1: to promote our own stuff and carry our books in

852
00:51:10,085 --> 00:51:14,685
Speaker 1: the trunk of our cars and beg people to buy him. No, no,

853
00:51:14,885 --> 00:51:18,884
Speaker 1: God will take care of them. He brought David out

854
00:51:18,885 --> 00:51:22,325
Speaker 1: of the sheep folds from following the hues great with young.

855
00:51:22,365 --> 00:51:26,045
Speaker 1: He brought him to feed Jacobs people and Israel his inheritance.

856
00:51:26,805 --> 00:51:27,085
Speaker 2: Get this.

857
00:51:27,325 --> 00:51:30,005
Speaker 1: So he fed him according to the integrity of his heart,

858
00:51:31,005 --> 00:51:36,005
Speaker 1: and he guided them with skillful hands. Yes, so I'm

859
00:51:36,085 --> 00:51:39,365
Speaker 1: seventy eight inns with those beautiful verses.

860
00:51:39,565 --> 00:51:39,845
Speaker 2: Wow.

861
00:51:41,285 --> 00:51:47,085
Speaker 1: Took him from the sheep, and he felt oil running

862
00:51:47,125 --> 00:51:52,005
Speaker 1: down his neck, and he thought, what's this? You know,

863
00:51:52,765 --> 00:51:55,205
Speaker 1: average God run down the north swim and start buying

864
00:51:55,245 --> 00:51:59,245
Speaker 1: crowns because they're going to be king. Yeah, Nope, David

865
00:51:59,285 --> 00:52:00,525
Speaker 1: went right back with the sheep.

866
00:52:00,645 --> 00:52:01,165
Speaker 2: That's right.

867
00:52:01,965 --> 00:52:05,925
Speaker 1: Next time we see him, he's fighting a giant not

868
00:52:06,085 --> 00:52:11,565
Speaker 1: to be seen. But because this uncircumcisedful esteem has no

869
00:52:11,685 --> 00:52:15,085
Speaker 1: right to talk about God's people like he's been doing.

870
00:52:16,165 --> 00:52:18,765
Speaker 1: And he took that sling and He slung at the rock,

871
00:52:19,605 --> 00:52:22,765
Speaker 1: hid it right between the running lights, knocked it right down,

872
00:52:23,565 --> 00:52:25,765
Speaker 1: took that head and walked up to Saul and said,

873
00:52:25,805 --> 00:52:34,005
Speaker 1: well here it is, Saul goes, who is this? David

874
00:52:34,045 --> 00:52:38,405
Speaker 1: has never impressed with himself? And then Saul, you know,

875
00:52:38,565 --> 00:52:42,405
Speaker 1: began to chase him. Twelve thirteen years David said, what

876
00:52:42,525 --> 00:52:44,965
Speaker 1: have I done? Said to Jonathan, what have I done?

877
00:52:45,165 --> 00:52:45,485
Speaker 2: Yes?

878
00:52:47,365 --> 00:52:48,565
Speaker 1: What have I done against Saul?

879
00:52:48,685 --> 00:52:49,045
Speaker 2: Nothing?

880
00:52:49,205 --> 00:52:52,045
Speaker 1: Nothing? Why is he trying to kill me? It's all

881
00:52:52,125 --> 00:52:56,045
Speaker 1: part of learning, Dave. You're learning the king it, You're

882
00:52:56,125 --> 00:53:00,125
Speaker 1: learning how kings live. You'll continue to be shot at

883
00:53:00,805 --> 00:53:07,325
Speaker 1: and speared, talked about and criticized. Stay at it, stay

884
00:53:07,365 --> 00:53:10,965
Speaker 1: at it. Cynthy and I have the favorite line, stay

885
00:53:11,005 --> 00:53:14,725
Speaker 1: at it. Yeah, stay at it like you and Kathy.

886
00:53:14,965 --> 00:53:15,205
Speaker 2: Yes,