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Speaker 1: Life audio, So sum up for us as a Muslim,

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Speaker 1: how you viewed this Christian idea that God is trying.

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Speaker 2: As a Muslim, this was a very major, big problem

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Speaker 2: for me because the idea for me was God according

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Speaker 2: to the Koran, according to different verses in the Qoran,

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Speaker 2: that God had a partner. And it is very challenging

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Speaker 2: to understand that God is just one of a party

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Speaker 2: and that is a gang of God's.

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Speaker 1: If a trinity were essential to faith, why no clear

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Speaker 1: teaching on the trinity in the New Testament.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's very important, and this is very unfair in

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Speaker 2: my opinion that we say that it's unclear. Why because

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Speaker 2: first of all, Jesus in many many places proclaimed himself

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Speaker 2: as God, as a creator, he created eyes in action,

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Speaker 2: that God in titles, that he set himself before Abraham,

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Speaker 2: I am, he said in many places, proclaiming his divine name.

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Speaker 2: So the absence of a word does not make the

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Speaker 2: meaning and the core of what is behind the word.

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Speaker 2: He's not there. No, if we dig it deep, we

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Speaker 2: will find it everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Why do Muslims so aggressively critique the doctrine of the trinity.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the most common Islamic objections to

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Speaker 1: the Trinity and what are the best responses. Our guest today,

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Speaker 1: Thomas Samuel, is back on the show. He is a

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Speaker 1: former Salafi Muslim who was taught to destroy anyone who

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Speaker 1: challenged the Islamic faith. In light of his radical conversion

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Speaker 1: of Christianity, he now defends not only the deity of Jesus,

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Speaker 1: but the triune character of God. He's here to talk

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Speaker 1: about his new book, The Truth Unveiled. Thanks for coming back, Tom,

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Speaker 1: It's good have you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much to be with your brother, and

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Speaker 2: it means a lot to be with you on the show.

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Speaker 2: I really love it and I love to watch all

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Speaker 2: your videos. It's amazing. God bless you.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're way too kind and we're going to get

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Speaker 1: into your book on the Trinity, but I want to

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Speaker 1: take a minute and pause for you to share your story,

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Speaker 1: your background of becoming a Christian, because this frames why

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Speaker 1: you care so much about this topic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I, as I said in the previous episode that

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Speaker 2: I came from a Salafi Muslim and family and they

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Speaker 2: are very radical. So we grow with the idea that

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Speaker 2: Christians and Jews are infidels. Like like, you have to

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Speaker 2: know that like it's a ground knowledge. And this means

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Speaker 2: that they are making partners to God and that God

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Speaker 2: is not a law the monotheistic understanding, but he is many.

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Speaker 2: And they made the Christians made Jesus God, and Jews

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Speaker 2: made someone called Israel God and or or in Arabic

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Speaker 2: to be more accurate. And they say that, and that

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Speaker 2: we used to say that it is it is. It

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Speaker 2: is very important to not be alais with Christians and

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Speaker 2: Jews because they are allied to one another. So if

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Speaker 2: we are allaized with any of them, this means that

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Speaker 2: we are one of them. So any Muslim would like

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Speaker 2: to avoid to be a partner to Jews and Christians,

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Speaker 2: you know, to be alais with them, this is this

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Speaker 2: is unacceptable. I grew up with that hatred till I

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Speaker 2: wanted to go to Jihad because I feel that they

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Speaker 2: are persecuting the Arab countries and they wanted to go

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Speaker 2: to Iraq, as you know. And then I I didn't go,

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Speaker 2: and I started to focus on reaching out to Muslims

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Speaker 2: to convert them to cel Afius. And this was interesting

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Speaker 2: because this was not satisfying for me. It was not enough.

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Speaker 2: I wanted something equal to Jihad. So I started to

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Speaker 2: evangelize other people like Christians, and I started to win

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Speaker 2: Christians to it, and I started to study Christianity, which

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Speaker 2: led me to atheists because I found that we don't

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Speaker 2: have evidence to prove God. We don't have evidence enough

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Speaker 2: evidence for Islam. We don't have enough evidence, in my

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Speaker 2: opinion at that time, for Christianity or for any other religion,

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Speaker 2: because we are not sure if God exists, and if

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Speaker 2: Islam is wrong, everything is wrong. I cannot trust anything.

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Speaker 2: And then through a very long journey from atheism to agnosticism,

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Speaker 2: to deism to trying to take my own life to

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Speaker 2: at last, I met I met Jesus Christ in a

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Speaker 2: dream telling me it is your time to follow me,

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Speaker 2: which is my first book, and it was fascinating. And

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Speaker 2: I went through this testimony through understanding who God is,

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Speaker 2: not because I studied God only, but because He showed

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Speaker 2: me who he is, because he talked about me, even

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Speaker 2: if I failed. After that, a bit, after a bit intellectually,

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Speaker 2: and I started to check new age and check other stuff,

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Speaker 2: still God was there. God wanted me to be for him,

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Speaker 2: and he got me back to him on all levels.

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Speaker 2: I started to learn about what is Christianity. I started

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Speaker 2: to go deep in what is who is God? And

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Speaker 2: that's really what matters in Christianity. It doesn't matter who

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Speaker 2: created or what created you. It's not a what, it's

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Speaker 2: who that's a major thing. And this thing changed my

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Speaker 2: whole perspective and it was really challenging. It was not easy.

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Speaker 2: Nobody think that it was like fluffy journey. Everything was smooth. No,

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Speaker 2: everything was hard, was crushing, was scary until God allowed

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Speaker 2: me to or help me to come out of Egypt

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Speaker 2: like he did with the Israelites in the past. And

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Speaker 2: I think he did the passover with me personally to

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Speaker 2: pass out of this country to safety.

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Speaker 1: Amen. Brother, your interview is one of my favorites. It's

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Speaker 1: probably top ten or top twelve just viewed because it's

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Speaker 1: so dynamic and powerful and you're right what you just

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Speaker 1: said when we talk about the Trinity and some of

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Speaker 1: the key differences between Islam and Christian and other faiths

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Speaker 1: is the character of God. Who is God? So some

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Speaker 1: up for us as a Muslim, how you view this

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Speaker 1: Christian idea that God is triune?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this was as a Muslim, this was a very major,

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Speaker 2: big problem for me because the idea for me was

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Speaker 2: God according to the Quran. According to different verses in

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Speaker 2: the Quran, that God had a partner. And it is

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Speaker 2: very challenging to understand that God is just one of

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Speaker 2: a party and that is a gang of gods, and like,

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Speaker 2: for example, when you go to Sura five, verse seventy three,

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Speaker 2: when you go to Zura five, verse hundred and sixteen,

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Speaker 2: when the Quran is very clear God, they disbelieve those

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Speaker 2: who say God is the third of three in other translation,

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Speaker 2: is one of a trinity. They're trying to fix the

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Speaker 2: translation to fit to the Christian faith exactly. But there

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Speaker 2: is no deity except the one God, which is a law.

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Speaker 2: And whoever says something else is a disbeliever. On other

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Speaker 2: when you study other verses, you will find that there

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Speaker 2: are verses that put Jesus in Mary as partners to God,

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Speaker 2: that proclaimed that we did so like in sort of

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Speaker 2: number five hundred and sixteen, as I mentioned, oh Jesus,

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Speaker 2: son of Mary, did you say to the people, take

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Speaker 2: me and my mother as God's rather than God? Like

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Speaker 2: there is a family, God's family. And when you when

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Speaker 2: you think of that carefully, you think of all the

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Speaker 2: time of a biological relationship of God, that Christians are

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Speaker 2: accusing God of a relationship that is based on biology,

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Speaker 2: like sexual relationship. And for sure, any any logical being

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Speaker 2: will say this is unacceptable. Anyone will think for one second,

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Speaker 2: who will say no, no, no, you cannot say that

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Speaker 2: about God. So for me, the highest challenge is how

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Speaker 2: they dare to think that God may have partner. And

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Speaker 2: this was interesting because you know Nitemia that one of

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Speaker 2: the very well known scholars in the thirteenth century of Islam,

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Speaker 2: he said something very interesting. He said, even this, this

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Speaker 2: is funny. Has one of them said, even if Christians

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Speaker 2: say that God has no partner and that they believe

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Speaker 2: in one God, don't believe them. They are lying to you.

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Speaker 2: They come to me say no, no, we don't believe

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Speaker 2: that way. Liars, liars, they don't say the truth. So

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Speaker 2: for me, Christians are a group of people who believe

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Speaker 2: that God got a partner because he has a son,

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Speaker 2: and they say the Son of God about Jesus Christ

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Speaker 2: all the time. And there are different groups. According to

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Speaker 2: the commentaries of the Muslim books that there are different

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Speaker 2: groups who group that believe that Jesus is God. A

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Speaker 2: group that believed that Jesus is son of God and

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Speaker 2: a group that believed that Jesus is a prophet. But

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Speaker 2: they destroyed that group until Islam came and revealed the truth.

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Speaker 2: This is how I used to think of it.

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Speaker 1: That's fair. Would you say, before we get to what

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Speaker 1: the trinity is, I'm gonna askual you explain what do

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Speaker 1: we mean by God being triunh why do we believe it? Does?

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Speaker 1: Many Muslims historically and the Qoran misrepresent what Christians actually

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Speaker 1: believe about God. Are they rejecting a straw man?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I believe that they take And that's that's

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Speaker 2: the problem, every mistake, even it was my problem one

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Speaker 2: day before that when I listened to the other, to

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Speaker 2: to the to the Christian. I try to figure out

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Speaker 2: what I believe in about you in whatever you say,

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Speaker 2: so I search for my points in whatever you say.

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Speaker 2: So whenever you say son of God, oh, how he's

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Speaker 2: biologically because for example, Koran say the most merciful has

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Speaker 2: taken to himself a son that they say, so be

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Speaker 2: he glorified. There are but honored servants. So twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: six this is this is how how we try to

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Speaker 2: find out any reason to prove that our points about

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Speaker 2: you is correct. So it doesn't matter what you say,

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what we say. So yeah, many people,

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Speaker 2: when you read carefully all the rejections of the Trinity,

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Speaker 2: you will find that it is based on what they

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Speaker 2: want to see. There is nothing, literally nothing, very very

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Speaker 2: very few challenges are to be very fair, very very

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Speaker 2: few challenges are really respectable, and really yeah, you need

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Speaker 2: to think of that and give an answer. But most

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Speaker 2: of the other rejections are based on a very superficial

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Speaker 2: reading of the scripture, very superficial connection on the on,

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Speaker 2: on what it means and what we believed in across

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Speaker 2: and how we showed our faith and discussed it and

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Speaker 2: commented on it across years.

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Speaker 1: So this next question could be an entire video in itself.

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Speaker 1: But as simply as you can, what does it mean

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Speaker 1: that God is triune? What is the Trinity? And why

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Speaker 1: do Christians believe it?

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Speaker 2: Okay, there is a hard answer and easy answer. I

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Speaker 2: will say the hard one very shortly, very shortly, just

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Speaker 2: to state that this is the correct meaning. So in

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Speaker 2: one sentence, the hard answer is God is one in nature,

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Speaker 2: one being one in nature, three in hypostanceis in his persons. Okay,

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Speaker 2: he is not one and three at the same time.

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Speaker 2: He's not one and three from the same perspective. He's

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Speaker 2: not one and three from the same idea. No, he's

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Speaker 2: one from one perspectivel anside from his nature. He's one.

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Speaker 2: He's trying union or three persons from another side. This

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Speaker 2: is the hardest or the simplest form of the hardest answer.

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Speaker 2: But let's take the easy one. What does it mean

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Speaker 2: God is one? And or or God is try union?

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Speaker 2: First of all, the problem here that we that make

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Speaker 2: it difficult for us to understand is we want God.

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Speaker 2: We start by judging God, how you will fit to

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Speaker 2: my mind, how I will make you squeezed and come

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Speaker 2: inside me, instead of starting from the point, okay, God,

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Speaker 2: teach me who you are. So this is the first thing.

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Speaker 2: The second thing, the trinity is simply the nature or

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Speaker 2: the God's monothism is the nature of God proclaimed or

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Speaker 2: revealed in his tri unity in three persons fathers on loo.

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Speaker 2: Look when I say who is God? God is Father

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Speaker 2: some holy spirit? What is God? God is one? So

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Speaker 2: that's very interesting. Why because other religions struggle with that.

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Speaker 2: Many other legions struggle with that. It's very easy. By

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Speaker 2: the way, to say what God is, because even the

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Speaker 2: Bibles say that His glory is manifested in what he in,

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Speaker 2: what he created, right, So it's through creation. You may

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Speaker 2: know that God exists, and you may know that God

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Speaker 2: is one, but who is that one? Imagine if I

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Speaker 2: go to Bayola and say, for example, that Sean is

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Speaker 2: one of the people, that is one of the people here.

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Speaker 2: Who is Sean? Yeah? Which one? Like? Yeah, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of people here, and Sean may be a

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Speaker 2: very unique name. But imagine if we said Michael is

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Speaker 2: one or John? Imagine like what which John? So God

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Speaker 2: is unique? God is one, and that means that what

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Speaker 2: does it mean? God is one? God is unique? There

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Speaker 2: is nothing like him. There is no one like him.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, who is gone, his Father, Son,

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Speaker 2: Holy Spirit? And to say a lot about him, a

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Speaker 2: lot about him, as we will understand further when we

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Speaker 2: go through the book. Through the book, I love it.

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Speaker 1: That's great. We can spend a lot of time time

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Speaker 1: about God's character. But the way you framed it, instead

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Speaker 1: of beginning with our assumptions and fitting God into a box,

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Speaker 1: we should have a humility and say, how is God

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Speaker 1: revealing himself? And of course we believe God is triune

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Speaker 1: because this is what the scriptures teach. Now somebody says, well,

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Speaker 1: the scriptures aren't reliable and doesn't teach that. That's a

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Speaker 1: separate conversation we admittedly have not had here. But I think,

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Speaker 1: very simply put, the Bible says there is one God.

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Speaker 1: We see that God is one in Deuronomy six, and

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Speaker 1: Jesus repeats that in Mark twelve. Of course, Paul repeats

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Speaker 1: that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each divine,

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Speaker 1: and yet they're distinct persons. So the try from trinity,

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Speaker 1: the threness is in persons, from unity is in the

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Speaker 1: being or the nature of God. One God, three persons

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Speaker 1: is what we mean. And I appreciate that you're pushing

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Speaker 1: back on the idea that we need a perfect illustration

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Speaker 1: for this, because we're talking about the character of God.

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Speaker 1: Now we'll come back to illustrations. But I'm really just

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Speaker 1: curious for you. As a Muslim, you were, you moved

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Speaker 1: from Islam kind of to atheism. You have this dream

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Speaker 1: of Jesus coming to you, and so clearly it's like,

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Speaker 1: who's this person Jesus. Of all the things you had

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Speaker 1: to overcome in your errant theology, how central was the Trinity.

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Speaker 1: Was this like one of the hardest things to just

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Speaker 1: wrap your theological mind around and start believing in.

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Speaker 2: Actually, my journey with the Trinity is unique also because

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Speaker 2: God is unique. So my journey with the Trinity was

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Speaker 2: unique because, yeah, because it starts with the idea that, look,

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Speaker 2: i will focus on Jesus unity that he proclaimed, I'll

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Speaker 2: focus on scripture, he said, than he is. I started

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Speaker 2: with this simple idea, he said, than he is. And

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Speaker 2: for me this was fair enough because God is unlimited God,

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Speaker 2: I cannot put him in a box, as we said.

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Speaker 2: So accordingly, he knows himself better, he knows who he is.

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Speaker 2: So I started to deal with that idea from that

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Speaker 2: perspective that I will believe in it as it is,

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Speaker 2: just because he said it, not because I analyze it.

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Speaker 2: I have illustrations for that. Actually I was against most

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Speaker 2: of the illustrations I am. I'm always the Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: always the noisy guy in the class. Thank God that

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Speaker 2: I'm not in one of your classes. You get me.

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Speaker 2: But I'm the guy who ask a lot like how

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Speaker 2: what do you mean? But in what sense? I'm that

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Speaker 2: type of guy. So so in many classes when I

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Speaker 2: took I was getting disciples. I had a big problem

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Speaker 2: with the logical proclamation or the philosophical understanding of the Trinity.

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Speaker 2: I had a lot of question marks. So I started

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Speaker 2: from the scripture. But then what happened? What has happened

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Speaker 2: that I started to after time with faith, I started

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Speaker 2: to read more about the Trinity. I started to read John.

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Speaker 2: The Gospel of John is my favorite. When it comes

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Speaker 2: to the Gospels, all of them are great. John the

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Speaker 2: Gospel of John is tremendous for me, is very specific

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Speaker 2: and very wow. So I started to feel like proclaiming

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Speaker 2: who is God is a big thing. To know who

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Speaker 2: is God? To understand who is God is a mandatory thing.

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Speaker 2: So I started to pray about it. God, teach me

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Speaker 2: more about you, teach me more about who you are.

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Speaker 2: I started to read in the Church Fathers, to read

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Speaker 2: in different understanding street even in Muslim proclamations about what

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Speaker 2: God is not. And I found the problem. I proclaim

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Speaker 2: I may proclaim in yourself that I found the problem.

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Speaker 2: That the problem we have that we always start from

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Speaker 2: three and we try to make it make sense. And

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Speaker 2: that's a problem. Why because you jumped to the personification

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Speaker 2: of how God is personified or who is God before

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Speaker 2: knowing and having and digesting enough God's unity, Especially with

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Speaker 2: people coming from a Muslim background, we have a big,

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Speaker 2: big problem with understanding God's oneness. And that's my main

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Speaker 2: question to many Muslims when I have conversation with many

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Speaker 2: of them, when they say, oh, but you know a

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Speaker 2: lot is one, I say, that's amazing. I believe the

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Speaker 2: same thing. No you don't, Oh okay, okay, but let

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Speaker 2: me tell you I have a question about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what is your question? What do you mean by one?

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Speaker 2: And they always get me the stare, you know, like

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Speaker 2: one one and they start to do like this one.

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Speaker 2: So I start to say to them one like that

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Speaker 2: like your finger? No, no, no, I mean one one

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Speaker 2: like he's not many? And here is the problem. Here

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Speaker 2: is the problem. Brother. They always define God by what

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Speaker 2: God is, not not with who God is. And that's

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Speaker 2: a big problem. Like we start to say what God is. Ah,

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Speaker 2: he is the creator. Okay, that's positive, that's good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but who is he? Yeah? Many people proclaim different creators?

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Speaker 2: So who is he? This specific creator? He is one? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: In what sense? He is? Like? No one like him? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: not I know, But who is he oh like unique.

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Speaker 2: For example, when you take the very fundamental sudas or

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Speaker 2: chapters in the Quran, Sura called the class chapter Claus

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Speaker 2: one hundred and eleven or yeah, I don't remember the number,

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Speaker 2: but it's the class. It says had say God is one, okay,

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Speaker 2: a love summoned. We have a big problem understanding this

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Speaker 2: word someone means the one you go to him when

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Speaker 2: you have a problem, or means empty. The second thing,

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Speaker 2: he is not born and he doesn't give birth, and

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Speaker 2: that thing like him. So all the time, especially with

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Speaker 2: Christians and Jews, when they try to define God, they

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Speaker 2: always say he is the one who's not born and

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Speaker 2: they didn't give birth. Yeah, but this is like any people.

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Speaker 2: Many people could be not giving birth and Adam was

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Speaker 2: not born. I mean, what do you talk about? So

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Speaker 2: this is a thing that I think is a big struggle.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean by the word one? Is it

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Speaker 2: a number or is it a type? For example, the Bible,

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Speaker 2: our Bible is say that the man leave his mother

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Speaker 2: and father and stick to his wife and they become one.

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Speaker 2: Are they one? Are they one one person? No, they're not.

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Speaker 2: But the Bible says that they are one. What do

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Speaker 2: you mean this is so one should not be only

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Speaker 2: nu miracle. God is not only one as a number.

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Speaker 2: God is one as a unity. God is one. So

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Speaker 2: when you go from that understanding, it makes a lot

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Speaker 2: of sense. After that, when you speak inside the tunity

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Speaker 2: about trying persons, it makes different, different sense. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: this is how I see it.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to bring up the Bible because the Bible

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Speaker 1: is one book, but it's also sixty six books. So

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Speaker 1: there is a unity and a oneness, but there's also

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Speaker 1: a diversity. And so the oneness of the Bible is

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Speaker 1: not just in terms of number, although it is one

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Speaker 1: in a sense, but there's a deeper unity in the message,

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Speaker 1: in the meaning, in the theology that goes beyond just number.

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Speaker 1: So just like the two shall become one in marriage,

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Speaker 1: there's unity in diversity the Bible, there's unity in diversity. Again,

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Speaker 1: these will only get us so far, but help break

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Speaker 1: down the assumption people have that oneness is solely in

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Speaker 1: terms of number. It's greater than that. Now, sometimes in

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Speaker 1: these conversations and actually different conversations, I've had a number

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Speaker 1: of Muslims saved me. They'll say things like, oh, you're

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Speaker 1: a Christian, that's wonderful, we worship the same God. So

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Speaker 1: there's this phenomena where many Muslims are very quick to

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Speaker 1: say we do not worship the try God. That is heresy.

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Speaker 1: But then on the flip side, at least in my experience,

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Speaker 1: are quick to say, oh, we do worship the same God.

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Speaker 1: How does the triune character of God help answer the

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Speaker 1: question whether or not we do worship the same God.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting because yeah, many people, especially in the West,

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Speaker 2: proclaim all the time that, oh, it's one God. You know,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to have this conversation. God is fine.

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Speaker 2: God is for all this, you know, universal understanding of God.

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Speaker 2: But the thing is, when I got this question, the

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Speaker 2: first thing that jumped on my mind is which God

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Speaker 2: you talk about? I mean, who is God? And that's

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Speaker 2: the problem that people say, oh, we worshiped the same God.

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Speaker 2: I always say that they put you in a corner.

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Speaker 2: If you say, yes, I worship the same God, Oh

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Speaker 2: so follow us, it's a law. If you say no,

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Speaker 2: they say, oh, so you worship many gods, and brother,

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Speaker 2: this is only one creator, only one God. Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 2: But the problem that you may fall in a trap

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Speaker 2: of what I call misframing or misdescription. You misdescribed a person.

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Speaker 2: It's very easy to say, Oh, I like Sean McDowell.

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Speaker 2: You know, you know he is this teacher in Oxford.

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Speaker 2: You know he's great. He's great, and you know I

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Speaker 2: speak about him and he is. Yeah, he's a white

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Speaker 2: guy with a bit white hair, but he works in chemistry.

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Speaker 2: He is great. I mean, it's it's normal that you

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Speaker 2: start to mix people or someone with different things about him,

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Speaker 2: and then you try to say that this is the

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Speaker 2: same person we know just because we have common things.

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Speaker 2: My answer to that, if we The question should be

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Speaker 2: not if we believe in one God, because the creator

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Speaker 2: of this universe should be one by by logic. But

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Speaker 2: the best question is or to correct the question, it

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Speaker 2: should be do we understand God the same way? Do

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Speaker 2: we have the same understanding of who God is? This

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Speaker 2: is a more deep question, and accordingly no. My answer

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Speaker 2: is simple no, not at all, because simply you believe

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Speaker 2: in a God even in his characters, we don't believe

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Speaker 2: in the same characters of God. For example, do you

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Speaker 2: believe that god love is conditional because he loved the

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Speaker 2: good people he hates them, not the people who are

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Speaker 2: not good, but I believe God who believed the whole world,

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Speaker 2: who love the whole world. So this is how I

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Speaker 2: believe in God. You believe in a God who need

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Speaker 2: This is interesting. You believe in God according to the Quran,

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Speaker 2: who needs a partner to have a son. Because when

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Speaker 2: you say, in one verse of the Koran, say and

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Speaker 2: how he may have a son while he has no partner,

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Speaker 2: that's interesting. And your God needs a partner to have

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Speaker 2: a son, My God doesn't. He doesn't need a partner

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Speaker 2: to have a son. He has the son from eternity.

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Speaker 2: And this is what we believe called the trinity. So

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Speaker 2: we have a lot of millions of differences. Even there

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Speaker 2: is a fallacy that we may fall in a lot,

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Speaker 2: My brother, you know the false equivalency. I have ears

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Speaker 2: and the elephant have ears. This doesn't make me an elephant,

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Speaker 2: you know. So the same thing you say God is creator,

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Speaker 2: I say God is the creator, doesn't make them the

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Speaker 2: same God.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good that last one. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: remember that and use that the fallacy of false equivalency. Yes,

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Speaker 1: both Christians and Muslims believe God is one, although we

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Speaker 1: differ over exactly what we mean by that. We both

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Speaker 1: believe God is a creator. Well, that's like saying with

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Speaker 1: an elephant, in some sense, we both have a body,

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Speaker 1: we both have skin, so we both have ears, therefore

429
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: were the same. That ignores the radical differences on the

430
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: nature of an elephant and a human being and how

431
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: Christians in view Christians and Muslims view the character of God.

432
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: That's a very very important distinction. Now I want to

433
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: get to your book, because your book, it's not just

434
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: a general book on the Trinity. It's more a book

435
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: responding to a popular Muslim apologist that you think still

436
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: has relevance for today. So in some ways, I'm I'm

437
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: tempted to not say his name just because I know

438
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: I will butcher it. But I'm going to say it,

439
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: and you can just totally correct me.

440
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: Here.

441
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: Your book is called The Truth Unveiled, a Defense of

442
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: the Trinity, Contemporary Muslim Debates concerning Trinity with a focus

443
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: on Rama Tala al Hindi's perspective with a Christian rebuttal Now,

444
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: that's a long title, But tell us who Rama and

445
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: pronounce it correctly. Rama Tula al Hindi was, and why

446
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: you think his objections still matter today?

447
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: Very interesting? First, of all, I did my whole master

448
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 2: thesis based on the same topic. So this book is

449
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: the glimpse of my master thesis when I was doing

450
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: my masters in in theology, so this is important. So

451
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: I spent some time studying the topic. Ramatu Lahindi was

452
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: an interesting character because his book still used. It is

453
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: the major most important book in criticizing Christianity up till today.

454
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: Putting in consideration, made people don't know Ramatu Lahindi was

455
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: born in eighteen eighteen and died eighteen ninety one. Yeah,

456
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: people maybe don't care about that, but they may know,

457
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: for example, that he is the one who inspired Ahmadi Dad.

458
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: Everyone knows Ahmed did Dada, your father knowing the best,

459
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: So he is the one who, according to Ahmadi Dad,

460
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: inspired Zaka Naik and so on. So this man inspired

461
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: very important key people in the world of polemics and apologetics.

462
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: So his proclamations he when I was studying his book,

463
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: I found that he has whole chapter on the Trinity

464
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: and this chapter consists of around fifty pages and he

465
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: has around twenty seven proclamation against the Trinity in a

466
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: very stunning offensive way, like Oh Christians, you understand nothing

467
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: about your own faith, and that's really interesting, Like I

468
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: like your approach. Let's talk, let's talk. But he was

469
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: not there. So we talked on paper and I found

470
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: that he put his topics or his defense on a

471
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: polemical attack on three main characters or my titles, like

472
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: how Trinity doesn't make sense logically rationally, how Trinity is

473
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: not supported even biblically, and how Jesus himself criticized the Trinity,

474
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: and what we say, how we defend the Trinity. So

475
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: this was interesting, especially the part that Jesus denying the

476
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: Trinity was really interesting to me. Jesus and you're like what,

477
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: and yeah, So I started to dig deep in that

478
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: in that book and I started decided, oh, this is

479
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: my topic. I want to talk about that.

480
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: That's really helpful. I did not know that his book

481
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: is still the most widely read or widely used kind

482
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: of anti Christian polemic from Muslims. That was news to me.

483
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: I had not read it until I read through your

484
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: book and you give his arguments, and of course you

485
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: are responses. Let alone that he influenced Akhmeddi dot who

486
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: is a local you know, maybe he's watching this, but

487
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: a local friend of mine, any mom near where I

488
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: live who I had him on the show and went

489
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: and visited his mosque, told me in conversation. I said, hey,

490
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: who's you know, who's the most influential Muslim apologists And

491
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: he said, well, the goat is Akhmeddi Dot who died

492
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: a number of years ago. And this mom was not

493
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: aware that my dad debated him. I said, hey, take

494
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: a look at this and tell me what you think.

495
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: And he hasn't gotten back to me. He's busy. I

496
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: don't know if he hasn't watched it or not. But

497
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: that debate in probably the mid eighties in South Africa

498
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: with my father and Achmeddi Dot was arguably one of

499
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: the most significant Christian Muslim debates, certainly of that decade,

500
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: maybe the century and beyond. People still talk about it.

501
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: But this book influenced him. He's influenced modern day e

502
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: moms and other Muslims. So it makes total sense that

503
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: you would go back to kind of this primary source

504
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: and try to critique it. So I appreciate that you

505
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: went back to the primary source itself. Now, the three

506
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: levels are fascinating. He says, it's illogical, it's not biblical,

507
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: and this last one we'll come back to, which I

508
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: haven't heard as much, is that Jesus himself rejected the Trinity,

509
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: which of course is a brilliant move if you're a

510
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: Muslim to say, you Christians think you believe in Jesus,

511
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: even he rejects your view of God. So it's a

512
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: smart tactical move. Huge kudos for him approaching that. But

513
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: give us an example of one of his objections, maybe

514
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: one of the more well known, more influential ones. Steal

515
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: man it so we understand what his position is and

516
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: then tell us how you'd respond to it.

517
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of his very interesting proclamations that it doesn't

518
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: make sense logically because if God is the Phone, the God,

519
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if they are distinct,

520
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: so they have a problem because it's this diversity should

521
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: make them distinct because of a reason. So for example,

522
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: if you say God is the Father, God, there's a son,

523
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: God is a Holy Spirit, and you cannot say that

524
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: these three are responsible for every action as one. That's

525
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: their problem. So you have two problems here, or two answers.

526
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: They try to put you in a corner, double edged

527
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: weapon style, so they tell you have now a problem.

528
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: You have to say, first of all, for example, that

529
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: God is one and there is no certinity, so God

530
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: is responsible for all his actions one hundred percent. Or

531
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: you want to tell me that Father is responsible for

532
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: thirty three point three of his percent of of the

533
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: actions of the God, and the Son has responsible for

534
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: point three and so on. So this is how they

535
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: want to put it down, to say that God is

536
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: sharing things together. Accordingly, you cannot say that God is one,

537
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: otherwise his actions will be distinct. This question is interesting.

538
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: I give it a thought for a long time, but

539
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: I had a problem. I give it a thought because

540
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: I didn't I was like, wow, this is true. No,

541
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: I give it a thought because how should I make

542
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: you understand that what you say is not right? Because

543
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: of two things. First of all, let's put the rule.

544
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 2: God proclaimed that he is trying union, and that's why

545
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: we believe in it. Trying to explain it, try to

546
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 2: make understanding how this makes sense is just a trial

547
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: from humble beings who are trying to come closer to

548
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: what we will never get. Fully, so this is a

549
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: basic idea I need to put before answering any question,

550
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: because every answer I could will never be one hundred

551
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: percent like, oh, this is God, because who knows that?

552
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: But what I can say that, first of all, you

553
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: have a problem because you think that God need to

554
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 2: separate his work to make it done in instead of

555
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: God is sharing everything inside his community. So for example,

556
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: you want to make sense logically humanically, like me and

557
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 2: my wife are responsible for our son, so accordingly I

558
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: have the chromosomes x x y and she has the

559
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: chromosomes xx, so we share the so we have parts

560
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 2: parts of the thing. Yeah, but this illustration is not

561
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 2: correct because you here talk again about very very human

562
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: materialistic understanding. This is the word I'm seeking, materialistic understanding

563
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 2: of how God does his work. My answer is very

564
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: simple to that. When you look to matches that fire

565
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: that you fire, if you want to light a candle

566
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: through matches, can you light a candle with the three

567
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: matches at the same time or it doesn't work? It's okay, right,

568
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 2: you can just put the three minutes in light at

569
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: the same moment. Right. So the idea that you need

570
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: always to have a sequence in action for actions to

571
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: be done is not reasonable. You don't need to share

572
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: things together. Oh you I did that. You did that,

573
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: So we need to start in sequence, or we need

574
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: to have time between us. We need to have a

575
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 2: gap between us, We need to have shares between us.

576
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: God is doing everything in his trinity, and this is

577
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: what we believe as Christians. The idea that God is

578
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: needs to give a task his task oriented, so the

579
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: task should be distinctive. Yeah, it may look like that

580
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 2: when you talk about his relation to us, but when

581
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: you talk about his eminent relation to himself, it doesn't

582
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: work like that. God is one in his nature and

583
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 2: his nature where the will comes and where he decides things.

584
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: And that's why they have shared the same and they

585
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: have the same will to do things when the God

586
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 2: will never say oh, let's do that, and the Father

587
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 2: and the son will say, oh, let me think about it. No,

588
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: God is not in conflict in his trinity. Actually no,

589
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: it is in full completeness in his trinity. So the

590
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: idea that you want to put parts to God is

591
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: very falling short to a very materialistic understanding. And you

592
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: want to limit the spiritual dimension to what can happen

593
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: only physically, where we need sequence and time gaps and

594
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: partner share. Yeah, the answer is not easy, I know.

595
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,959
Speaker 2: But at the same time, the question is so philosophical.

596
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: But this is I think, what make Muslim feel like,

597
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: Oh we got it, we know for sure, but I

598
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 2: have a bigger problem with that that Muslim fall in

599
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: the same trap. For example, when you say God has

600
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: a word, God talks. When you say that God has

601
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 2: a will, they have a problem between their schools what

602
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: does will mean. They didn't agree on that attribute that

603
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: it's is it part of God? Or for example, there's

604
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: a school that's say we cannot make will eternal in

605
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: God because this means that God is let's say his attributes.

606
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 2: If his attributes is eternal, this makes many gods. So

607
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: they have a problem. So they started to say, no,

608
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 2: his attributes comes in time, it's not eternal. So without

609
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: going so philosophical, they have a problem with understanding that.

610
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: So before proclaiming how God work in our in our faith,

611
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: and you need to put down what do you mean

612
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: by by one? What do you mean by God's as

613
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: God is a spirit? You need to put it down.

614
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: What do you mean by God can work together at

615
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: the same time, on the same task, at the same moment,

616
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: with the same will, even if he is distinct in

617
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 2: his trinity. So yeah, so it is a challenging question,

618
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 2: but it's not impossible to refute.

619
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: The flame example is interesting and raises a lot of

620
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: potential counterexamples. I only want to take it so far

621
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: because someone could say, well, you don't need three flames

622
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: to light when you have one, But that's not the point.

623
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: The point you're arguing is you could have one do it,

624
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: or you can have three in unison do it at

625
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 1: the same time. And on a Christian understanding, there's one

626
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: God and three persons, well, they may have different roles

627
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: in salvation. Their wills are aligned together perfectly towards the

628
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: same end. So it's not like a husband and a

629
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: wife who have the ultimate will. But at times my

630
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: wife and I we disagree and we have to work

631
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: stuff out and we have to compromise. It's not that

632
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: way when it comes to God. So we can use

633
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: certain illustrations such as, you know, one book the Bible

634
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: with many books, one marriage with multiple you know, a

635
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: husband and a wife. We have to be careful taking

636
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: those illustrations too far, because that's where we get into

637
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: kind of materializing God and reducing him down to human

638
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 1: relationships rather than understand how God has revealed himself and

639
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: how God works in the world. That's really important that

640
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: I think you're drawing out here. And the bottom line

641
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: is we don't have to answer exactly how God operates.

642
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: We're talking about the characteristic of an infinite God. But

643
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: what you're pointing out as saying, these objections don't work,

644
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: and they at least don't show an inconsistency in God's character.

645
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: That's all the Christian has to do. If the Bible's true,

646
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: we haven't demonstrated that here. If it teaches that God

647
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: is triune, then fillply, we just have to show that

648
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: these objections don't overturn that. And I think that's what

649
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: you're doing here now. With that said, the idea that

650
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: Jesus was against the Trinity is so interesting. You have

651
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of examples of the book you respond to him.

652
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: But one of the passages that comes up that I

653
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: think is one of the more difficult ones you said

654
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: you love the Gospel John is in John seventeen three,

655
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: and the claim is that Jesus himself refuted the Trinity

656
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: in this passage, which says, and this is eternal life,

657
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 1: that they know you the only true God, and Jesus

658
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: Christ whom you have sent. So isn't there once you're

659
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: God and then Jesus Christ distinct from this once you're God.

660
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: Yes, this is very interesting points because I love the

661
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: Gospel of John. And at the same time, when you

662
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 2: read this verse you feel it's stunning. You feel like, oh,

663
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: Jesus is very clear here, but actually not because you

664
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: didn't read the whole context as always. As always, so

665
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: John seventeen from one to five. May I read it

666
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 2: with you? Please? It will give us a huge help

667
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: to answer this question. I'm reading ESV. When Jesus had

668
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven

669
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 2: and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son,

670
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: that the son may glorify you, since you have given

671
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 2: him authority over all flesh to give what to give

672
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: eternal life to all whom you have given him. And

673
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 2: this is eternal life that they know you the only

674
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: true God. And Jesus Christ, whom you have sent, I

675
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you

676
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: gave me to do. And now Father grew glorify me

677
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: in your own presence, with the glory that I had

678
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: with you before the world exists. Man so Jesus confirms

679
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: here a lot of important things in these In these verses,

680
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: at least we can pull out three, four or five things.

681
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: For example, he's got son. This is very obvious, right,

682
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: He's very obvious. In the second, the father should glorify

683
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 2: the son. Wow, the son will not only because they

684
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: always say, oh, but the son is here to glorify

685
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: Jesus is here to glorify his father. Yeah, but his

686
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: father also will glorifying him. Should glorify the son. Thirdly,

687
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: Jesus has authority over all flesh, and he has the

688
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 2: right to give eternal life, the fantastic thing that when

689
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: we call is a big biblical thing. Here, John, the

690
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 2: Gospel of John uses, or John in general, in his writings,

691
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: use two words. He talks about life, he used the

692
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: word zue, and he used the word bo sometimes. So

693
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 2: when he talked about flesh and things, he talked about beeo.

694
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 2: But when he talks about the type of God's life,

695
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: he used the word zue. And this is the word

696
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: that is used when he say eternal life. So again

697
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: this means a lot, because if Jesus can give eternal life,

698
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 2: Jesus can give the type of life that God has

699
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: to people to share it to live eternally. Wow. Fifth,

700
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: the Son had glory with the Father before the word existed.

701
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 2: This is the versus saying, So this is what we

702
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: get in the context. Not only that the church fathers

703
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 2: didn't pass this verse, they were amazed. They started to

704
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 2: think that, actually, this verse is one of the very

705
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: obvious proofs that Jesus is God. Because of this verse

706
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: is totally and I want this to say this also

707
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: now to all Christians, the Trinity is very important. And

708
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: whatever you think is weakness, maybe it is your strength point.

709
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 2: Whatever you think is weakness, it is your strength point.

710
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: Because the devil will not attack the weak ones. He's

711
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 2: attacked the strong ones. So this is very important. Let's

712
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: go for some of the Father's understanding to this send Hillary.

713
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: For example, he say exactly encoding Therefore, this confession is

714
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: not separate from Christ, even in the subjection of his humanity,

715
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 2: because he says, and this is eternal life, and that

716
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 2: they know you the only true God and Jesus Christ.

717
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 2: You have said first there is no eternal life in

718
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: confessing God the Father without Jesus Christ. What this was

719
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: an opening eye for me, an eye opener like, yes,

720
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: eternal life should together. You should worship both, you should

721
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 2: believing both. You should know both. It's not one rather

722
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: the other or one, and the rest is not important. Secondly,

723
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: Christ is glorified in the Father. In that verse when

724
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: it talks about glorification, its focused and the Father is there.

725
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: Jesus is already glorified in the Father. The last thing

726
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: that I would like to say, he has a lot

727
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: of a big word that you can read in the book,

728
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: but I want to jump to Sant Augustinia's because Augustine

729
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: has a fantastic word here. Augustine said, the proper order

730
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: of the words is this is how he reads the

731
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: verse that they may know you and Jesus Christ, whom

732
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: you have sent as the only true God. So it's

733
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: both you and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent as

734
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 2: the only true God. This is how we should come

735
00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 2: to acknowledge you. So Jesus is actually stating deeply that

736
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 2: he is gone and with the Father, and that they

737
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: are two persons in the trinity. In that verse. I

738
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: mean this verse for me from now on, from since

739
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: I started the study. Who knows the Father must know

740
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 2: the son. Otherwise it doesn't work. Why is it doesn't work.

741
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 2: You know the Father through the son because he is

742
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 2: manifested in the sun, and you know the son through

743
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: the Father because he's glorified through the son the Father.

744
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: This you cannot separate, and that's the problem. Many people

745
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: want to look about each at each person apart. It

746
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: doesn't work. This is not the trinity, the trinity that

747
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 2: they are one unity. That's the thing.

748
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: Hey, man, I appreciate that you go to the context.

749
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: Sale.

750
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: Let's look at the verses before, let's look at verses after.

751
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: Of course, we can go to the context of the

752
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: entire book of John. You know, in the beginning was

753
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: the word the word was with God, and the word

754
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: was God. Of course, as you read further in the

755
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 1: beginning of John chapter one, it's clear that it's referring

756
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: to God the Father. So the son is with the Father,

757
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: but the son is also divine. Since he's with the Father,

758
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: he's distinct from the Father. So we can't separate. You're

759
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,959
Speaker 1: rightly to call me on this, and I did, because

760
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: this is the objection that comes up. Separate a verse

761
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: from the larger theology of the context and the book

762
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,479
Speaker 1: as a whole, which clearly says the Father and son

763
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: are distinct, but they're both divine and we are, and

764
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: they come together the only true God, the Father and

765
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. That is a powerful claim of deity and

766
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: arguably unity between the two of them. So I think

767
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: I think you're you're onto something in your response to that.

768
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: One other critique before we get to kind of a

769
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: practical aspect of this, and we'll wrap it up, is

770
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: that if the Trinity were essential to faith, Jesus and

771
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 1: the apostles would have taught it clearly. And yet when

772
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: asked the greatest commandment, Jesus simply said, love God with

773
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: your heart, your soul, and your mind and your strength,

774
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: which is in Mark chapter twelve, of course, referring to

775
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: the Shaman Deuronomy chapter six. If it's so essential, why

776
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: no clear teaching on the Trinity in the New Testament.

777
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: Yes, that's very important, And this is very unfair in

778
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: my opinion, that we say that it's not clear. Why

779
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: because first of all, Jesus in many many places proclaimed

780
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 2: himself as God, as a creator, he created eyes in action,

781
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 2: that God, in titles that he said himself before Abraham, I am.

782
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 2: He said in many places proclaiming his divine nature and

783
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 2: proclaiming that there is And we have the very famous

784
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 2: verse in Matthew twenty eight where it says that send

785
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 2: when he will sending their disciples, and he's saying, oh

786
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: and peptizing the name Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So the

787
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: idea of not having the trinity clear in the writings,

788
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 2: in what Jesus said, in the writings of Paul, in

789
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 2: the writings of different parts in the Bible, even in

790
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 2: the Old Testament, there is always this this understanding that

791
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: the Messiah, at least in the biblical Jewish part, that

792
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 2: the Messiah is God. Also, so you have this this clarity,

793
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 2: it comes gradually. So this is the first thing. The

794
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: second thing, I like one theologian, he said before something

795
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: very interesting, Sean. He said, the Old Testament talk about

796
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: the Father obviously, very clearly, and give some glimpse about

797
00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: the Son. Then the New Testament talks about the the

798
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 2: Son obviously very clearly, and he gives and the Father

799
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 2: for sure, and gives some glimpse about the Holy Spirit.

800
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: And then the church disciples, the disciples of Jesus Christ

801
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 2: talked very obvious about the power of the Holy Spirit

802
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: and give a glimpse about what you can do in

803
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 2: the trinity. So the thing is that direction of understand

804
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 2: what they call it gradual revelation of who God is

805
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: with very clear thing from the beginning. In Genesis, God

806
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: is saying in the beginning was in the beginning, God

807
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 2: created heaven and earth. In the beginning, God created with

808
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,439
Speaker 2: his word heaven and earth, and the spirit of God

809
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: was over the water. So it's not that hiding. But

810
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 2: at the same time, it was gradual according to the

811
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 2: dealing or the distinction of what we call economical trinity,

812
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: how God is dealing with us, so we can gradually

813
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: grasp how we can understand that the three are one.

814
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 2: The last thing I would like to comment here about

815
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 2: that question. The trinity is not only it's not only

816
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: words and versus. The idea is not the word trinity

817
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 2: because sometimes they say, oh, but the word trinity is

818
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 2: not in the Bible. Yeah, there are many words that

819
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 2: is not in the Bible. The word atheism is not

820
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 2: in the Bible. Does this make does not exist? The

821
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: word monotheism in that sense in that literation, literation is

822
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 2: not in this in the Quran? Does this makes it

823
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 2: does not exist? And so on? So you understand me.

824
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: So the absence of a word does not make the meaning,

825
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 2: and the component or the core of what is behind

826
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 2: that word is not there. No, if we dig it deep,

827
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 2: we will find it everywhere. But we need like one

828
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 2: hundred episodes to talk about that.

829
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: Yes, we definitely do. You're right about the word. One

830
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: of my favorite examples is the word a sayty, which

831
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: refers to God's self existence. That word is not in

832
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: the Bible, but clearly the Bible teaches, such as Exodus

833
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: chapter three, I am who I am and Colossians one,

834
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: that there's an uncreated, eternal, self existent God, and Jesus

835
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: is that God. So the word a sayety is not

836
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 1: in the Bible, but it's taught well. The word trinity

837
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: is not in the Bible. It was added out of

838
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: try threeness and entity oneness to try to capture what

839
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: the Bible teaches about the character of God. One example

840
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: that often here is, you know, when it comes to understanding,

841
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: you know, light acts like a wave, and it acts

842
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: like a particle. But why there's a certain mystery there.

843
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: There's not a contradiction, but there's a tension. In the

844
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: world of physics, we find this in other disciplines, So

845
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: there should be a tention when we're talking about things

846
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 1: like God's sovereignty and free will, how do we make

847
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: sense of this? And of course, in God's triune character,

848
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: we're talking about the most beautiful, amazing self existence, eternally

849
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 1: holy good being. It shouldn't be simple to understand the character.

850
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:36,240
Speaker 2: Of this God.

851
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: So really, one of my big takeaways from this, Thomas,

852
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: and I think this comes from just some of your

853
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: background coming to faith, is making sure that we don't

854
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: import our ideas upon God, but let God speak and

855
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,879
Speaker 1: inform us how we think about Him. And when we

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00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 1: humble ourselves in that way, then there's a richness of

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00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: an understanding and just a richness of theological depth that

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00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: comes from receiving God. You do that in your book,

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00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: it's called The Truth Unveiled, a Defense of the Trinity,

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00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: and I want folks to know it's a master's thesis,

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00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: but it's very readable. It's probably not something to read

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00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: at midnight before you go to bed. It's a kind

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00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: of book that's going to take a little working through

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00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: to understand. But if you understand God's character and some

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00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: of the leading objections to the Trinity, I found it fascinating,

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00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: and you gave me the privilege of writing the forward

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00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: for it, which I was happy to do. So I

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00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: help all the apologists watching or listening will check out

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00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: a copy of the book The Truth Unveiled and make

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00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: sure you go back and listen to our story. I

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00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: haven't dad, it's probably about two years ago maybe that

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00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: we posted it. It's one of my favorite and one

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00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: of the top viewed podcasts I've probably ever done, certainly

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00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: top twenty five, maybe top ten, because it's just a

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00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: compelling story of somebody you hated, God, hated Christianity. Your

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00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: life has been transformed. I think most people can see

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00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: the joy on your face even coming through this video

878
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: of what God has done through you, even though there's

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00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,439
Speaker 1: some challenges you and I were talking about off air

880
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: that you are continuing to work through. So God bless you.

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00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: Thomas really appreciate you coming back and coming on to folks.

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00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: Before you click away and make sure you hit subscribe.

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00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: We've got more theological apologetic scientific topics coming up to

884
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: help you defend the faith and if you thought about

885
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: study apologetics, we have full classes on theology in which

886
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: we go into depth on what the Trinity is how

887
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: to defend it In our master's program here at Talbot

888
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: School of Theology, information is blow One last thing Tom.

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00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,959
Speaker 1: She might not know this, but we updated our certificate

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00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: program recently. As for those not quite ready for a

891
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 1: master's but say, you know what, I want to study

892
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: some apologetics from the best really lecturers in the world.

893
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: We got together and we'll guide through people in that process.

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00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: There's a big discount below. All right, my friend really

895
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. Thanks for coming on and working with us.

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00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much my own.

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00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

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00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

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00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge

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00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

901
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

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00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show,

903
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 1: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

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00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

905
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,479
Speaker 1: spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible and so much more.

906
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 1: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach,

907
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,479
Speaker 1: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

908
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: you when the next episode drops.