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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to The beck and Cook Show with

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Speaker 2: your host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and

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Speaker 2: his ministry, visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To

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Speaker 2: Becket Cook Show. Please consider subscribing to the podcast and

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Speaker 2: leaving a five star rating.

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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to the show today. I have a

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Speaker 1: special guest, Aaron Edwards. He's been on this show before.

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Speaker 1: He is a theologian in academic exile and an author,

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Speaker 1: and he has a substack called That Good Fight which

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Speaker 1: is wonderful, which you should subscribe to. So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: get into a recent article he wrote called the Feminist

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Speaker 1: Gaze and the Wisdom of God. And we're going to

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Speaker 1: also talk about the Church of England's change on same

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Speaker 1: sex blessings, as well as the archbishop of the new

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Speaker 1: Archbishop of Canterbury. But first award from our sponsor, Please

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Speaker 1: welcome Aaron Edwards.

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Speaker 3: Greetings, how you doing?

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Speaker 1: Greetings? Now, wait, where are you in the UK? Right now?

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Speaker 4: I'm in near Sheffield basically, which is an old steel

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Speaker 4: city from back in the day when we used to

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Speaker 4: actually produce things in this country right about somewhere. I

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Speaker 4: guess it's north of the Midlands. If anyone knows what

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Speaker 4: the Midlands means in your large country, I guess you

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Speaker 4: probably just think of us as all living in like

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Speaker 4: one tiny area.

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Speaker 3: Right, nor in south?

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Speaker 1: How far? So are you in northern You're in Northern England.

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Speaker 1: I'm in the North.

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Speaker 4: Officially it's in the North. Yeah, it's probably in like

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Speaker 4: it's the south of the North.

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Speaker 3: I would say Sheffield is.

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Speaker 1: So it's like where Lewis is from from the TV

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Speaker 1: show Morse. He's from the North, right.

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Speaker 3: I think, yeah, that's correct.

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Speaker 4: I mean I don't know that show, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm fairly sure that's correct from the North in general.

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Speaker 4: But it's different because in the US it's like the

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Speaker 4: supposedly sophisticated people who in the North, aren't they And

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Speaker 4: it's the opposite way round in.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah? Right, I know. Okay, So tell us why,

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Speaker 1: because you've been on the show before and we talked

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Speaker 1: about why you are a theologian in academic exile, just

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Speaker 1: tell us briefly why that is the case.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I was a as we spoke last time.

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Speaker 4: I forget when it was on the show, but I

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Speaker 4: was working at a Bible college and evangelical college for

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Speaker 4: seven years, and I just noticed a lot of the

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Speaker 4: same sex blessing, marriage, LGBT stuff, and coaching in on

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Speaker 4: the church. Our college was linked to Methodism, which of

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Speaker 4: course originated in England as an offshoot of the Church

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Speaker 4: of England in the eighteenth century with John Wesley, etc.

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Speaker 4: And so you know that I noticed that this was

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Speaker 4: clearly a problem for evangelicals, not only but for evangelicals

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Speaker 4: who are There were liberals who were kind of moving

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Speaker 4: in an LGBT direction, but there are also people who

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Speaker 4: are conservative who didn't want to kind of get there,

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Speaker 4: you know, get in any kind of trouble over speaking

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Speaker 4: about it. So they adopted this kind of super winsome

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Speaker 4: apologetic tone whenever they spoke about the issues. It was

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Speaker 4: always like, you know, I'm so sorry for any harm

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Speaker 4: we've ever caused the LGBT community. And you're like, when

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Speaker 4: have you guys always falling over yourselves to apologize for

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Speaker 4: all this harm?

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Speaker 3: I don't really I've never really seen any of these.

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Speaker 4: Froth mouthed conservatives in my time who've been like aggressively

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Speaker 4: attacking all these gay people. It seems like you're desperately

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Speaker 4: trying to impress them, and actually they're the aggressor in

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Speaker 4: many respects. So many people who are hurt and harmoned

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Speaker 4: by it in the sense that the ideology is harming

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Speaker 4: them and sending them into a spiral. But so I

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Speaker 4: just realized this is a real problem for the gospel.

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Speaker 4: So even evangelicals, you say, let's stay out of these

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Speaker 4: moral issues, let's stay out of issues that are that

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Speaker 4: are not the gospel. We'll just talk about the gospel

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Speaker 4: and say Jesus loves you. Well, you can't actually do

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Speaker 4: that if you start allowing things like gay marriage in

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Speaker 4: or say I personally don't agree with it, but I'm

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Speaker 4: not going to challenge it, Like that doesn't make sense,

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Speaker 4: and you're kind of saying that Jesus didn't need to

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Speaker 4: die for some sins.

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Speaker 3: And so I tweeted about that.

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Speaker 4: If I spoke about it behind the scenes with the

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Speaker 4: college executives at Ceter for years about the issues of

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Speaker 4: Methodism and if it goes for gay marriage, what would

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Speaker 4: we do as an evangelical college that is technically not

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Speaker 4: supposed to agree with that? And it was all they

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Speaker 4: tried to shove it under the carpet. It's not going

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Speaker 4: to be an issue. And eventually, you know, I said,

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Speaker 4: this isn't going to work. You can't just pretend that

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Speaker 4: both views are acceptable contradictory convictions, as they call it methodism.

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Speaker 4: You can't pretend that that's going to work because the

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Speaker 4: conservatives are going to get in trouble because they're going

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Speaker 4: to want to challenge the view, and then the gay

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Speaker 4: person is going to say, you really offended me. You

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Speaker 4: said that God was okay with this, and this person

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Speaker 4: says he isn't. What do we do well conservatively to

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Speaker 4: be quiet, et cetera. So I said this, and then

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Speaker 4: I ended up basically tweeting about it and talked about

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Speaker 4: homosexuality invading the church. Evangelicals don't see the severity of

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Speaker 4: this anymore because they're busy apologizing for their apparently barbaric homophobia,

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Speaker 4: whether or not it's true. This is a gospel issue,

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Speaker 4: by the way, because if sin is no longer sin,

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Speaker 4: we no longer need a savior. So that was the tweet,

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Speaker 4: and then I got suspended immediately after a tweet storm

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Speaker 4: with all the high up Methodists trying to get me fired,

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Speaker 4: all the game Methodists desperately trying to kind of cause

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Speaker 4: trouble the college bow to them fired me two weeks later.

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Speaker 4: Three weeks later, I think, And then that's been the case.

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Speaker 4: So I've been and you know, as as you can imagine,

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Speaker 4: in the place as liberal as the UK, having like

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Speaker 4: fired for causing your the college disrepute is not is

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Speaker 4: not ideal for your CV, shall we say? So it

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Speaker 4: was not ideal, you know. That's that's why I'm kind

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Speaker 4: of an academic exile in the sense that I sort

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Speaker 4: of went into the West wing, shall we say, and

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Speaker 4: spoke about things one mustn't speak about if one is

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Speaker 4: an academic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And by the way, you have how many kids?

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Speaker 1: Five kids?

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Speaker 3: I think I possibly had five when we last spoke.

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Speaker 4: I have seven children now, who knows?

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Speaker 3: Next time, next time we have a conversation, who knows.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Oh, God bless you. That's amazing. Yeah, so people,

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Speaker 1: can you please support him and subscribe to his sub stack?

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. Seven kids. Well, I'm the youngest of eight kids,

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Speaker 1: so I'm yeah.

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Speaker 3: There you go very much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I love big families.

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Speaker 1: But my father was not. He wasn't canceled as a

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Speaker 1: lawyer in Dallas Texas. Yeah, okay, what's going on before

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Speaker 1: we get into your article, what's going on with the

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Speaker 1: same sex blessings in the Church of England.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, like I said, the funny thing was just a

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Speaker 4: tiny little footnote that goes back onto my story. Of course,

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Speaker 4: we're challenging that in in legal proceedings with the employer

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Speaker 4: and tribunal at the appeal stage, et cetera. I've written

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Speaker 4: about that on the substack as well. People want to

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Speaker 4: read about it. But actually, somebody who was tweeting a

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Speaker 4: lot at the time that I tweeted, I was actually

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Speaker 4: responding not to Methodism, which had already gone for gay marriage.

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Speaker 4: It had already you know, the ship had sailed. I

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Speaker 4: was more concerned about the Church of England talking about

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Speaker 4: same sex blessings, which was happening in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 4: and they were saying, no, we're not going to go

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Speaker 4: for gay marriage like yet, or maybe we will, maybe

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Speaker 4: we won't, but we are going to allow same sex blessings.

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Speaker 4: And that was their kind of compromise for all of

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Speaker 4: the gay people in the Church of England and all

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Speaker 4: of the including like Vickers, you know, people who actually

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Speaker 4: ordained as clergy but what, by the way.

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Speaker 1: What I mean, just so we know, what does that

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Speaker 1: actually mean? Same sex blessings? I mean, it doesn't even

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Speaker 1: make sense, but what does that mean? According to that.

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Speaker 3: It's a very English fudge.

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Speaker 4: So it's like, I don't know if you guys have

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Speaker 4: fudge over them in America, but the fudge is like this,

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Speaker 4: like you know, I think it's like taffy. Do is

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Speaker 4: it called salt water a bit like that? That kind

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Speaker 4: of it is that kind of thing. So we call

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Speaker 4: it fudge, just this squidgesuy stuff and it doesn't have

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Speaker 4: any substance, like it doesn't have proper like backbone and spine.

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Speaker 4: So the English Church things that are professionals at fudging.

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Speaker 4: So they love a compromise and it's a very part

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Speaker 4: of the English relationhip. We love to hold paradoxes together.

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Speaker 4: I think Americans a lot more direct and like literal

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Speaker 4: about things, and we're just like, no, maybe we can

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Speaker 4: make this thing that doesn't actually work work though, what

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Speaker 4: if we tried that? And so there's something about that

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Speaker 4: in what they tried to do. And so the same

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Speaker 4: sex blessing was like, hey, God is not okay with

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Speaker 4: you getting married. But like we recognize that you being

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Speaker 4: in a relationship with someone, and maybe even allowing the

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Speaker 4: state to marry you, but not just.

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Speaker 3: A civil partnership. We used to have civil partnerships in

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Speaker 3: the UK.

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Speaker 4: It was only similar to the US. I think we

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Speaker 4: did we go ahead of you before when was a

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Speaker 4: Berger fell I think it was twenty fifteen. I think

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Speaker 4: we went two years before you, So you know, we

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Speaker 4: were ahead of you, more progressive, and so the state

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Speaker 4: could already marry you. So they were kind of accepting

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Speaker 4: that was happening anyway. They weren't going to put people

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Speaker 4: on the church discipline for being married to another person

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Speaker 4: of the same sex, which is already a contradiction. Really,

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Speaker 4: if you're saying this is wrong or doesn't honor it,

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Speaker 4: you're in my church. You're married to someone of the

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Speaker 4: same sex. You can't be that's God doesn't recognize that

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Speaker 4: as a marriage. So they tried to say, well, we

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Speaker 4: couldn't do that, that would be impossible, that'll be so hurtful, etc.

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Speaker 4: So we'll bless these people and pray that God blesses them.

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Speaker 4: Now we don't have to say what that blessing means, etcetera.

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Speaker 4: A bit like what Prancis was playing with for a time, like,

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Speaker 4: what did he mean when he said he wanted to

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Speaker 4: pray for gay couples in some way? Was he praying

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Speaker 4: that there be deliverance or was he pray? Probably not,

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Speaker 4: He's praying really that God would bless them somehow in

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Speaker 4: this at least it's monogamous, at least it's life long

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Speaker 4: according to them, and at least it's honoring, etc.

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Speaker 3: Is what they would say.

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Speaker 4: So they say God can bless good things, so we

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Speaker 4: can say that there's some good in there that he

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Speaker 4: can bless, and we'll just forget about the fact that

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Speaker 4: they couldn't get married. And he doesn't accept that because

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Speaker 4: we recognize that it's not possible mat theologically, marriage is

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Speaker 4: not possible between to people the same sex according to

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Speaker 4: canon law. And then in the Anglican Church, the reason

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Speaker 4: it's more significant is because it's linked in as the

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Speaker 4: established Church into the laws of the land, which is

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Speaker 4: quite cool. I mean, I know that Americans have different

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Speaker 4: views on establishment in general, but it's kind of interesting

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Speaker 4: that I find it interesting as an evangelical who's been

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Speaker 4: more in the charismatic, independent church type world. The Anglicans

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Speaker 4: have so much more influence. Like people, the average British

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Speaker 4: person talks about what the Anglican Church does, which is

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Speaker 4: wild when it's so secular as a nation, there's so

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Speaker 4: few Christians, and yet when the Church of England does

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Speaker 4: something big, it's in the newspapers because it's the established church.

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Speaker 4: And there's bishops who are in the House of Lords still,

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Speaker 4: so there's still people because they're a bishop in the

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Speaker 4: church when they get to sit and talk about legislation,

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Speaker 4: which is amazing, but it's a shame that loads of

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Speaker 4: them aren't really very orthodox theologically anymore. But it's a

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Speaker 4: kind of cool concept that you're like, wow, that's how

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Speaker 4: significant Christianity was in this land. So because it's so

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Speaker 4: it's not actually that easy for the progressive to come

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Speaker 4: in and just swoop in and go, hey, just change

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Speaker 4: canon lawmpletely because of the emotion of the debate. No,

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Speaker 4: you can't actually do that. It's really difficult, and they

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Speaker 4: tried it, and so they thought this was their fudge.

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Speaker 4: Maybe we can kick it down to the long grass

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Speaker 4: and go just bless them, blessed the couples. We'll just

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Speaker 4: bless the couples, and and well maybe we'll get to

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Speaker 4: marriage at some point, but we don't know exactly if

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Speaker 4: we will or not. So that's sort of what ended

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Speaker 4: up happening.

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Speaker 1: Really, yeah, it sounds it sounds very suspicious. We'll be

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Speaker 1: right back after this short break. Okay, so let's move.

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Speaker 4: To your your most recent I'm sorry before we go

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Speaker 4: that I actually forgot to perform. The very latest thing

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Speaker 4: that just happened was actually that they in the Church

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Speaker 4: of England, they have decided to kind of cancel the

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Speaker 4: process which was called living in Love and Faith. Oh right, yeah,

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Speaker 4: so that's the thing they just decided this week. They

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Speaker 4: were literally like, oh, actually this isn't going to work,

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Speaker 4: and we're not going to have same sex blessing ceremonies.

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Speaker 4: And yet there's still some fudge in there. They love

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Speaker 4: the fudge and that and that is that you can

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Speaker 4: still be prayed for as the same sex couple in

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Speaker 4: an Anglican church on a Sunday, So in a service,

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Speaker 4: during a service, you could be prayed for, but they

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Speaker 4: can't have a special ceremony with a special liturgy written

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Speaker 4: for a same sex couple. It's mad because you think,

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Speaker 4: what is why would you do that? Like, why would

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Speaker 4: that be allowed? Like so there's again there's things that

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Speaker 4: are just compromises all over the shop because it's all

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Speaker 4: taked in like the emotion of people feeling hurt the

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Speaker 4: LGBT community feeling hurt is the thing that they're worried

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Speaker 4: about the application. But then they also worried about African

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Speaker 4: massive African dioceses leaving the Chech of England because they're like, no,

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Speaker 4: you can't do this, and we're like, yeah, exactly, So

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Speaker 4: we are African brothers and sisters have really come into

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Speaker 4: their form because they're just completely conservative, embarrassingly conservative on it,

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Speaker 4: which is great, and so yeah, that's that's why the

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Speaker 4: Anglican Church is in turmoil basically. So they tried to

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Speaker 4: basically say we can't go official ceremonies and we can't

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Speaker 4: go for gay marriage because it's just not possible, and

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Speaker 4: we're going to stop. They live being in love and

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Speaker 4: faith process is what they called it, and it's going

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Speaker 4: to end this year. But there's other people who progressive

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Speaker 4: you still think they're going to make some change in

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Speaker 4: the future. So who knows what the future holds in

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Speaker 4: the funds that is the Anglican Church.

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Speaker 1: So on any given Sunday, I was same sex couple

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Speaker 1: can be blessed or prayed for? Is that correct? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't quite know what that looks like

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Speaker 4: in practice. So in reality what the last literally since

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty twenty three, but the whole process has been going,

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Speaker 4: the discussions and working groups since twenty seventeen. It's cost

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Speaker 4: they worked out it costs one point six million pounds

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Speaker 4: in your money. That might people that were doing quite

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Speaker 4: well pound at the moment army maybe maybe about two

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Speaker 4: million dollars or something. It's like, that's how much it

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Speaker 4: costs just to kind of have these discussions. And they realized, oh,

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Speaker 4: these discussions didn't work, so okay, great, good you some

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Speaker 4: church funds. So anyway, yeah, yeah, they they can be

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Speaker 4: prayed for, and they don't really know what it will

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Speaker 4: look like. But it's a bit it's again a bit

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Speaker 4: of a ridiculous situation because those things will already happening,

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Speaker 4: and there's already gay vickers again who again aren't who

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Speaker 4: are married, who aren't being like, you know, disciplined. They're

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Speaker 4: having to compromise somewhere, but at least they haven't gone

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Speaker 4: for the we're having an official celebration and we're still

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Speaker 4: and we're not going for marriage. So there's a positives

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Speaker 4: for the conservative side more than negatives. But I still

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Speaker 4: think they're dealing with a bit of a mess because

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Speaker 4: the bishops aren't willing to come out and say, here's

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Speaker 4: what God actually thinks, here's what he said, and here's

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Speaker 4: what the implications are. And we want to help love

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Speaker 4: LGBT people by helping them to repent and caring for

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Speaker 4: them pastor really rather than feeding them with this vague

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Speaker 4: hope that maybe one day will change our mind. And

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Speaker 4: that's kind of where there's a lot of division at

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Speaker 4: the moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot about the gay vicar situation. That's really

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Speaker 1: like that. That's a tough kind of spot to be in.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how that works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well again, it works because do you know what

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Speaker 4: it How it works? It works because they're hoping. So

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Speaker 4: there's a guy who's particularly vocal on it, called Charlie Bell.

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Speaker 4: He now has a double barrel surname, which sounds kind

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Speaker 4: of po Turkish. Maybe that's terrible the difference between too,

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Speaker 4: But I don't know precisely what. Anyway, he got married

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Speaker 4: last year. I think in a Maria. He went over

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Speaker 4: to America to get married. I don't know why he

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Speaker 4: needs to do that. Possibly in some how it worked,

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Speaker 4: but anyway, so he's married and he's he's really outspoken,

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Speaker 4: and he gave this very what would be seen as

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Speaker 4: a very powerful, moving emotional speech about it, angry in condemnatory,

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Speaker 4: like a kind of Old Testament prophet condemning the Anglican

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Speaker 4: Church for pulling out of this process. You know, he's

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Speaker 4: already like married to someone, so he's like, he's not

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Speaker 4: like he's got any vested interest in is he in

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Speaker 4: this in this sort of situation.

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Speaker 3: So it's bizarre really, So he's just literally acting.

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Speaker 4: Like they're still going to push it through, like it's

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Speaker 4: so it's a bit weird to see this kind of

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Speaker 4: thing happening because they have literally said we're stopping this

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Speaker 4: process in July, and he's like, we're going to go

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Speaker 4: full steam ahead and keep pushing.

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Speaker 3: And so that it's a weird scenario to be in.

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Speaker 3: And I think, really those.

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Speaker 4: People just need to leave the church. They need to

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Speaker 4: leave and go, Okay, we don't believe the church anymore,

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Speaker 4: and that would be more and it'll be sad. But

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Speaker 4: if they're not going to repent. I don't think they

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Speaker 4: should be leading. It's like saying, it's like basically at

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Speaker 4: this point, because they're pushing the agenda. It's like saying, hey,

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Speaker 4: the best kind of shepherd is actually a wolf.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: I know it looks a bit like dodgy, but like,

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Speaker 4: actually the new kind of training for shepherd is actually

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Speaker 4: to make.

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Speaker 3: Them act and look like wolves and talk like wolves.

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Speaker 3: And that's fine.

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Speaker 4: And I just think that's a real shame. And I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't say that of all gay people in the church.

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Speaker 4: I would just say that especially those leaders who are

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Speaker 4: trying to push this, and that could be someone who

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Speaker 4: isn't even gay, who just super pro LGBT and wanting

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Speaker 4: to push the inclusive agenda. There are just so many,

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Speaker 4: so many of the shepherds have become wolves in the

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Speaker 4: Church of England, in the hierarchy, that it's a really

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Speaker 4: sad thing. And there's loads of good people still in

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Speaker 4: the Church of England who are fighting, and they're fighting

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Speaker 4: is they know that maybe the establishment will win out

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Speaker 4: in the end somehow because it's so historic and it

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Speaker 4: might be the case that the progressors drift off or

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Speaker 4: move away, so who knows what will happen, but it

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Speaker 4: is a real mess at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as I always say, I'm so glad that in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, when I met Christians at a

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Speaker 1: coffee shop, they didn't lie to me. They told me

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Speaker 1: the truth about homosexual behavior being a sin. And that

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Speaker 1: actually prepared me the week before to walk into the

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Speaker 1: Evangelical Church knowing that information. I mean I kind of

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Speaker 1: already knew that sort of. I mean I knew that,

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Speaker 1: but it was just they confirmed it. And so when

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Speaker 1: I was when I walked into that first service the

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Speaker 1: day I got I had the road to Damascus conversion.

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Speaker 1: I in my I don't know if I've mentioned this

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Speaker 1: to you, but in my mind, I put the idea

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Speaker 1: of homosexual behavior as a sin. I put the idea

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Speaker 1: of homosexuality as my identity on an imaginary shelf and

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Speaker 1: walked into that service and because I and I thought

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Speaker 1: to myself, you know what, what if I am wrong

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Speaker 1: about that, I could be wrong about that this And

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Speaker 1: so that's when God swooped in and opened my eyes.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm very thankful that there weren't wolves in

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Speaker 1: my church at that time. There were no wolves my

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Speaker 1: pastor was not he was not a wolf.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's amazing, and he taught the truth God.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel you know, it's like this is

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Speaker 1: this this is a matter of eternal life. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like people are toying with this and playing with

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Speaker 1: this idea. It's like this is like there's millstones that are.

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Speaker 3: Going to be happening.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy to say, and especially the fact that

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Speaker 4: they couched all in love. That's why I think it's

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Speaker 4: not loving to those people to say that so well

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Speaker 4: as you say it was loving for those people to

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Speaker 4: challenge you with the truth, even though it would it

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Speaker 4: would be painful, be painful for them maybe if you'd

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Speaker 4: have reacted badly. And then probably presuming you get people

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Speaker 4: now who are gay, who are like you've sold out

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Speaker 4: and you're kind of like, you know, you're tray te

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Speaker 4: or some kind of Uncle Tom equivalent of.

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Speaker 3: The LGBT community. It's a bizarre thing, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: And that's really sad because you want to kind of

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Speaker 4: continue to preach, preach the truth to them, but there's

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Speaker 4: such a resistance ideologically because of the culture that there

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Speaker 4: lies that they're told is so so disgraceful, which makes

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Speaker 4: it almost impossible. So the devil is clever because you know,

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Speaker 4: he's put it in a situation where it's like you

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Speaker 4: are attacking my very self. My whole soul is bound

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Speaker 4: up with my basically my sexual immorality. So therefore I

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Speaker 4: can I can do whatever I want because it's literally

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Speaker 4: my God cares about my soul and if you take

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Speaker 4: that away, you're literally dehumanizing me. And that's that's such

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Speaker 4: a clever lie. It's so powerful, and so to undo

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Speaker 4: that it's really really difficult, but people need to be

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Speaker 4: bold enough to do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm very tell I talked to everyone about

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Speaker 1: Jesus and my story and and you know, to some

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Speaker 1: it's the aroma of life, to some it's the aroma

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Speaker 1: of Dutch. And you know, I can't. I can't control

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Speaker 1: the outcome. Only God can do that. Let's get to

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Speaker 1: your your article that was published on February seventh. The

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Speaker 1: title is the Feminist Gaze in the Wisdom of God

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Speaker 1: and the subtitle is why are you using Jesus to

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Speaker 1: rob Paul? To rob Jesus? Robs Us? All? I love that. Now,

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Speaker 1: first of all, why did you what compelled you to

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Speaker 1: even write this was it the archbishop situation?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit of a fallout for that that.

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Speaker 4: There was an article I wrote maybe the week before

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Speaker 4: on the Tragedy of the Church of England, which was

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Speaker 4: about Sarah Malalley, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, who was

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Speaker 4: officially consecrated in the in the in Saint Paul's Cathedral

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Speaker 4: in London.

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Speaker 3: And though we all knew that she we knew this.

434
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 4: Was going to happen because she'd been voted in I

435
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 4: forget when sometime last year, so it's not like it

436
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 4: was new news. I think I might I wrote something

437
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 4: at the time on when when that first happened, But

438
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,120
Speaker 4: I think it's actually it's really interesting when you see

439
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 4: on like Sky TV. I don't think you have Sky

440
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 4: over there, do you Maybe you have some CNN or whatever, Yeah,

441
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 4: equivalent big network like the big you know one, and

442
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 4: and it's like everyone's watching again, like I said earlier,

443
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 4: everyone's watching the arch Bishop of Canterbury on normal TV

444
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 4: being consecrated, and it's such like it's viscerally you can

445
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 4: just you're like, oh, this is this is completely shouldn't

446
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 4: be happening.

447
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 3: This can't be happening.

448
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 4: You can't have a woman exercising the ultimate authority over

449
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 4: all the men in the Anglican and it's not this

450
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 4: isn't theologically possible, and yet it's happening. And and like

451
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 4: we're watching and we're seeing all the speeches, We're seeing

452
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 4: all these things happen, and all of these prayers being said,

453
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 4: as though this is a solemn, a solemn thing before God,

454
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 4: this is a solemn event that's occurring, that God is

455
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 4: somehow anointing her to be the archbishop. And this isn't possible.

456
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 4: She isn't the archbishop. This isn't possible. Yet it's happening

457
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 4: and everyone's watching it, and it's it just it brings

458
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 4: it to the surface in a quite a powerful way,

459
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 4: and in a way that I think wakes people up,

460
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,120
Speaker 4: I hope, but in other ways it might lull people

461
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 4: to sleep who think, oh, okay, I guess this is

462
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 4: normal now, and the average non Christians like, oh okay, right,

463
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 4: this is happening, is it? And I just think actually,

464
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 4: on a missional level, there are a lot of non

465
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 4: Christians now, as you may be a presuma having the

466
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 4: same thing. In the US what they call the quiet revival.

467
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 4: I don't think that's necessarily the best term, but like

468
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 4: people just who are kind of sick of the woke,

469
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 4: sick of the undermining of foundations in the West, who

470
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 4: are kind of turning up in church again, and they

471
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 4: might more likely it's don't know how again. In the US,

472
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 4: you've got so many churches of so many kinds. I

473
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 4: think the average the average person is probably in Britain

474
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 4: is probably not going to go to an evangelical church

475
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 4: that meets in the school or a cafe. They're going

476
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 4: to go to a church that looks like a church

477
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 4: as they understand the church to be historically. So they'll

478
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 4: probably go to an Anglican church because they think they

479
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 4: think of themselves kind of in the church and it's

480
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 4: England and I'm in the Church of England, and so

481
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 4: they'll turn up to all of these and depends who

482
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 4: they get. They might get some Transvica. You know who's

483
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 4: who's gone, and it's just like it doesn't It's just

484
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 4: really ridiculous, really, because I think these are people who

485
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,959
Speaker 4: are the reason why they're there is because they want

486
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 4: solid foundations. They want a house built on a rock,

487
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 4: and they don't want this kind of completely loose sandy foundation,

488
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 4: which is precisely what's going wrong in culture. So the

489
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 4: Church of England is just mirroring what's happening in the culture.

490
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 4: And maybe that's the problem with the established church, that

491
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 4: it's so connected to what's going on in society that

492
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 4: it's like it's almost becomes one with it.

493
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: And so as as the society falls away, so does

494
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 3: that that church.

495
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 4: That can easily happen with those churches that are just

496
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 4: trying to engage the culture and not trying to challenge

497
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 4: it and be salt and light within it. So basically anyway,

498
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 4: so this is she was sworn in, and I think

499
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 4: it was a real missed opportunity, and there'll be people

500
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 4: who would have gone to the church. Is that that

501
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 4: actually they want people to hold the line and they

502
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 4: have less respect for the church because they've got a

503
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: woman archbishop. Now for sure there'll be lots of young

504
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 4: men who are like, oh, I'm not going to go

505
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 4: to the Church of England because I can't see.

506
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 3: That as being legitimate. So that was the in the ether,

507
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 3: and it's the kind of people who.

508
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 4: Responded to me about that about my my views on

509
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 4: the archbishop who Then I then wrote this this piece

510
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 4: on the feminist gaze, relating to basically the how how

511
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: people try to justify these kinds of situations.

512
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, well I personally I take it as a

513
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: personal attack because I was named after an archbishop of Canterbury,

514
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: Thomas Beckett. So so it's a personal it gets personal

515
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: for me.

516
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

517
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: And by the way, when when we say feminist gaze

518
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: is g a z E.

519
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 4: That's a really good point on the audio, that's a

520
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 4: really good point, like this feminist gaze.

521
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: So I used to be a feminist gay actually, praise God.

522
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: That So in the the first and you say, in

523
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: order to gain the respect of respectable modern liberals at

524
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: some point, the done thing, Well, I know what that.

525
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: I've never heard that expression before, but the done thing

526
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: is to disrespect the teachings of the apostle Paul, Uh,

527
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: what is the what is the done thing?

528
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: It's a very British phrase.

529
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 4: It's kind of like the it's I think it probably

530
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 4: harkens back to Victorian England. So this it isn't done

531
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 4: like one and one doesn't do that like so you

532
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 4: think of the dowager countess in downtown Abbey or something

533
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 4: Maggie Smith that she would like, it's just not the

534
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: done thing. One doesn't do those things, okay, society so like,

535
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 4: so if you want to do the done thing, the

536
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: done thing is what one should do.

537
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 3: So, yes, it's so like.

538
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: That's that's the You're always trying to do what can

539
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 4: keep with convention basically. So it's actually it goes back

540
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 4: to the British class system of one one does the

541
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 4: right thing and keeps the convention and never upsets the

542
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 4: apple cart basically.

543
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: Right, which is another. And then you go on to say,

544
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: whenever someone regret regrettably finds out about something Paul said

545
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: which contributes to said embarrassment or heaven forbid, they talk

546
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: about it out loud, they attempt to apply such teachings

547
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: in real life, or I'm sorry they or even feminism

548
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: have mercy, they attempt to apply such teachings in real life.

549
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: The standard procedure is twofold. Now what are the twofold?

550
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: Number one? You say, pivot seamlessly to the way of Jesus.

551
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: Talk about what that is that that kind of tactic

552
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: or that tact.

553
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, The first tack would be that they are

554
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: basically saying, look, I know that it seems that Paul

555
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 4: they have said this stuff, but hey, I'm with Jesus

556
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: and we're Christians, right, We're not pauline Ites, We're not

557
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 4: pau Lists, We're Christians. So let's just focus on what Jesus,

558
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 4: you know, let's just focus on Matthew, Mark, Luca, John

559
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 4: and we I mean, we know, we just we know

560
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 4: that actually Jesus is loving, so so his his way.

561
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 4: It's a very vague thing. So they don't want to

562
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 4: get that point. They don't want to get specific. They

563
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 4: want to say, Jesus. We know that Jesus is loving,

564
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 4: and Jesus is inclusive because Jesus is part of the Trinity,

565
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 4: and therefore you know, he is the embodiment of the

566
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 4: of of love itself because God is love, and so

567
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 4: you can just easily go the way of Jesus is

568
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 4: this amazing loving entity and you just follow that, And

569
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 4: that means kind of that you would affirm where somebody

570
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 4: is it wants to be affirmed. It seems similar for

571
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 4: the LGBT thing to some extent. But on that and

572
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 4: then therefore you can make it look like Paul actually

573
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 4: is the problem. So actually you can easily make it

574
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 4: what's called a canon within the cannons, with the Canon

575
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 4: of Scripture, the sixty six books that we as Protestants

576
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 4: would recognize as authoritative, and then it's kind of like, yeah,

577
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 4: but there's a real there's a proper.

578
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 3: Canon within that.

579
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 4: And it's like, what whatever the way of Jesus, it's

580
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 4: this vague sense of the way of Jesus and only

581
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 4: the way of Jesus within a certain select reading of

582
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: certain texts. And then Paul, Yeah, he's got some really

583
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 4: good stuff to say, but actually, you know he he's

584
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 4: a bit misogynistic. He's of his time, and you know,

585
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 4: he didn't seem to like women very much. That's why

586
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 4: I didn't let them teach. That's why they should be

587
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 4: silent in church, et cetera.

588
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: He was, yeah, exactly what he know?

589
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 4: What do he know about these things? He wasn't enlightened

590
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 4: like we are as well. So, so Jesus is what

591
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 4: it's all about, isn't it?

592
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 3: Guys? Come on, guys, isn't it? Isn't it all about Jesus?

593
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 4: Really?

594
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: And lots of evangelicals could hear like, yeah, we always

595
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: say that, we always say it's all about Jesus.

596
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 4: All of our sermons end up talking just about Jesus,

597
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 4: whatever the passage is about. So yeah, I guess maybe

598
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 4: that's more important. And maybe some of these weird stuff

599
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 4: that think that Paul said here or there, he that's

600
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 4: just Paul. And he said, of course I didn't mention

601
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 4: this in the article, but there is that thing that

602
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 4: Paul says in One Corinthians. You know, I'm speaking now

603
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 4: in the authority of the Lord. Now, I'm speaking as

604
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: the apostles. So they just say that that they use

605
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 4: that from One Corinthians, and they just say whenever Paul,

606
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 4: whenever we disagree with Paul, we can just say that

607
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 4: he's not speaking authoritatively at that point. And it's just

608
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 4: magical that whatever that is, it happens to be the

609
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 4: very thing that the secular God hating culture happens to affirm.

610
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: And we are We're not going along with it because

611
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 3: they're doing it.

612
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 4: We're just doing it because we've decided, actually, God the

613
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 4: Spirit has somehow enlightened us with exactly the same thing

614
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 4: that the secular world did whatever fifty years earlier, thirty

615
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 4: years earlier, whatever it would be.

616
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: So that's their first time.

617
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: Even though even though all the all of the the

618
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: entire Bible is the word of God, period. And I

619
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: love that you say, the authority of Jesus Christ, the

620
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: accredate sent of God. They have to choose between the

621
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: authority of Jesus and the bull she I don't even

622
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: know what this means, the bulls guy named.

623
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 3: I love. There's good.

624
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 4: There's there's some Anglo American translation done thing ball. She's

625
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 4: like someone who's just like a bit like aggressive and

626
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: in your face kind of thing. And actually they would

627
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 4: use that phrase about so in one Timothy two twelve,

628
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 4: for example, where Paul says, I do not permit a

629
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 4: woman to teach her exercise authority over a man, or rather,

630
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: she must have remained silent, they would say. The liberals

631
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 4: would say, oh, that's because in Ephesus, the context in

632
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 4: which Paul is writing to Timothy, there were some bolshy women.

633
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 4: Sometimes that's kind of a phrase you might hear, there's

634
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 4: some bolshy women who are kind of usurping authority. So

635
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 4: really he was saying, these particular bolshy women in this

636
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 4: particular church in Nephesis, at this particular time can't exercise

637
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 4: authority over men.

638
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: These men, sorry, not all men.

639
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 4: So it's like completely ridiculous, I think, just absolutely hilariously

640
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 4: stupid argument, and really clever sophisticated scholars believe that.

641
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 3: Like I'm amazed by it.

642
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: I genuinely am amazed that people can buy this completely

643
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 4: stupid argument and it needs to be mocked and laughed

644
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 4: at the way the prophets mocked stupid like ridiculous idolatry

645
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 4: in the Old Testament, because it's that stupid like, and

646
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 4: I don't mean to say that the people are unintelligent,

647
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 4: it's stupid kind of to think that anyone would buy it,

648
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 4: and yet people do because it's a heart issue and

649
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 4: not a head issue, and so that's why they end

650
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 4: up making this thing.

651
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: It.

652
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 4: Pall's a bit misogynistic. He's a bit bolshy because he

653
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 4: goes off in these rants about women, and you know,

654
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 4: actually that's really who would Who do you want to

655
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 4: go with again, Jesus or Paul, the incarnate son of

656
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 4: God got love itself, et cetera, or this kind of

657
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 4: godless man, a mere man called Paul. Yeah, Jesus gave

658
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 4: him a bit of authority, but Jesus is the real one.

659
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 4: Of course, Jesus gave him the authority, So we just

660
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 4: go with Jesus whenever there's a kind of discrepancy, and

661
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 4: as though there is a discrepancy, and it makes people

662
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 4: kind of think, oh, yeah, I guess Jesus didn't really

663
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 4: talk as much about women as Paul did, So maybe

664
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 4: Paul's got the issue. And it's so dangerous in the

665
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 4: way that introduces this serpentine undermining of the authority of

666
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 4: Scripture itself, and very subtly just through a woman coming

667
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 4: and saying, I really feel God calling me to minister

668
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 4: and you can again it's the heart strings can be pulled.

669
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 3: Are you saying that? Is you saying that.

670
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 4: God is not calling me to ministry in some way?

671
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 4: Are you saying that you know more than God? That's

672
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 4: kind of how it's touched and the person that is, Oh,

673
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 4: I guess I don't you know. I guess I wouldn't

674
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: want to like completely, I wouldn't be want to be

675
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 4: spiritually abusive to you.

676
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, let's just go with what you kind of feel.

677
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 4: Because you're so passionate about it, that must be true.

678
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: God must have literally told you you should exercise authority

679
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 4: over man. He must have told you that exactly rather

680
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 4: than actually a good thing about women being called to

681
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 4: all sorts of ministry in the church. Because women are

682
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 4: called ministry, they're just not called exercise authority over men.

683
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, let me just ask really quick. Let's see, Hey,

684
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: what is the origin of the British term bolshie? It

685
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: comes from bolshevik, the Russian reel. That's what I thought.

686
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: I thought I was gonna, I literally was gonna bolshevik yology. Yeah, okay,

687
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: so bolshi I love that word. I'm going to use

688
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: it all the time out. Now the second trick, you say,

689
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: if this, if this vague appeal to the way of

690
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: Jesus doesn't seem to land, what is the second trick

691
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: people use liberals use.

692
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the second thing that they will use is

693
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 4: that they will usually highlight a specific instance in which

694
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 4: Jesus has shown some kind of love or care for

695
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 4: a woman. And there's lots of instances in individual women

696
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 4: at the well for example, or the woman with the

697
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 4: issue of blood, or even the syro Phoenician woman, though

698
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 4: he does refer kind of refer to her as a dog,

699
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 4: as a dog in a way, and that as those

700
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 4: who are outside the people of Israel, but she he

701
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 4: does speak of her faith, and of course you've got

702
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 4: Mary Magdalen, You've got you know, the woman the alabasta Jar.

703
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 4: So there's lots of great interactions of Jesus with women

704
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 4: that would easily play into a narrative that someone could

705
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 4: construct and say that Jesus is obviously pro women. In fact,

706
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 4: in fact he tellt with the Martha and Mary situation,

707
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 4: he is he's actually saying that Mary has actually done

708
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 4: well here because she's actually got that she's chosen the

709
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 4: better portion, because she's sitting at my feet learning and

710
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 4: being taught by me. So she's kind of learning theology. Therefore,

711
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 4: why would she need to learn theology if she wasn't

712
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 4: going to, you know, go ahead and teach others, you know.

713
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 4: So it's almost of taking these particular instances and then

714
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 4: sort of assuming therefore that Jesus clearly wanted to introduce

715
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 4: this acorn of though we don't see it all in full,

716
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 4: it's what he really.

717
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: Wanted to communicate about women and women in the church.

718
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 4: And therefore it's a similar related point but to the

719
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 4: previous that ultimately what Paul ends up going and doing

720
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 4: that kind of confuses the issue and they have to

721
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 4: try to again fudge them together and say, look, Jesus

722
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 4: didn't say what Paul said. He didn't say all of

723
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 4: the same things that Paul said. So therefore we all

724
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 4: again taking the first principle, we always go with Jesus

725
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 4: when we're not sure. And Jesus didn't say in so

726
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 4: many words, I don't permit women to exercise authority over men,

727
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 4: even though I obviously implied it in the sense that

728
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 4: he chose twelve men as his apostles who were the

729
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 4: leaders to exercise authority over all men and women, And

730
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 4: so you could think that was quite a big hint,

731
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 4: but they basically kind of again just think that the

732
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 4: things that Jesus didn't explicitly say, we can't assume that

733
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 4: Jesus believed. And that's really, really again, it's a very

734
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 4: clever trick, because people can just you can't put something

735
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 4: on Jesus and go, well, did you but Jesus, do

736
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 4: you agree with the apostle Paul. I mean, every Christianity

737
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 4: doesn't work if you make a discrepancy between the letters

738
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 4: of Paul and the written accounts of what Jesus said

739
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 4: in his life. Of course, John says at the end

740
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 4: of his Gospel that there are many more things that

741
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 4: Jesus said and did, and if they were written down,

742
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 4: it would take kind of the whole space in the

743
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 4: whole world to kind of document them. And so it's

744
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 4: quite obvious that Jesus would have had quite normal Jewish

745
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 4: views relating to the Old Testament views about male and

746
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 4: female as distinct. In fact, that there's obviously loads of

747
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 4: hints of that throughout the Gospels anyway, in loads of ways.

748
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 4: The way he talks about marriage, for example, it assumes

749
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 4: what I would call a biblical patriarchal view, which is

750
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 4: not the same as what feminists called patriarchy.

751
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: They just mean misogyny.

752
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 4: But I think Jesus entirely affirms the biblical patriarchy of

753
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 4: the Old Testaments, of the Old Testament, and of course

754
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 4: of the patriarchs. So and then the interesting thing is

755
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 4: that Jesus then obviously is the one who commissions Paul.

756
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 4: So he's the one who gives Paul his mission, which

757
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 4: includes go and write all these letters. Basically he's inspired

758
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 4: by the spirit to do that which Jesus sent. So

759
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 4: it's really theologically muddled to say we've got this like

760
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 4: view of the reports of what Jesus said and did

761
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 4: in the gospels. That's all we really need to know

762
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 4: about what Jesus thinks. You're already kind of separating like

763
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 4: the Spirit from Jesus there in terms of the trinity.

764
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 4: So it's theologically all over the place to try to

765
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 4: shoehorn this idea in that Jesus because he technically didn't

766
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 4: say all the stuff Paul said on women in the church,

767
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 4: he doesn't believe it, and that's the thing that's just mad.

768
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 4: But again, in a kind of way of proof texting,

769
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 4: you can see how people could be won over by

770
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 4: it because they kind of easily just go, well, Jesus

771
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 4: didn't talk about it, so I don't have to believe

772
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 4: that exactly.

773
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: And the same applies to homosexuality. Well, Jesus didn't talk

774
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: about it in the gospel, so but you know, Paul did,

775
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: but Jesus. But it's I always say, Jesus was speaking

776
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: to Jews, and they knew the Torah, they knew that

777
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: it was a capital crime, Like he didn't need to

778
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: talk about it. He also didn't talk about pederaste or exactly,

779
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: and he but and he also reiterated what marriage was

780
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: you know, and that it was between one man and

781
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: one woman. So it's the same. It's the same trick.

782
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: Now you give a third you can try another tactic,

783
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: which says you say that they say they can say

784
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: that Paul is not actually quote out of sync with

785
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: Jesus at all, but rather, in spite of what he

786
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: said in those letters, that both he and Jesus believed

787
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: more or less whatever the people of our present liberal

788
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: generation currently happened to believe about. Well, anyway, go on,

789
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: just talk about that, talking about that third way.

790
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's kind of like they I mean, that's

791
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 4: them try. It's just amazing because they go because of

792
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 4: the first tactic is let's separate Jesus from Paul in

793
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 4: different ways.

794
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 3: We can try and do it now.

795
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 4: I think one thing I didn't mention earlier whether they

796
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 4: was when you do that, by the way, you don't

797
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 4: even get Jesus in the end. That's kind of why

798
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 4: it robs us all in terms of the subtitle, because

799
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 4: lots of the stuff we believe about Jesus comes from

800
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 4: Paul's letters. So who Jesus is in terms of like

801
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 4: the christology, like who Jesus is, as as some of

802
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 4: God with his authority, reigning, ruling, et cetera, glorified. So

803
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 4: you can't you just can't do that, Like you you

804
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 4: undermine Jesus' authority when you undermine Paul's authority as a

805
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 4: fossil of Jesus. So when they've done that, if people

806
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 4: are like and it's not quite tracking with this, and

807
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 4: they rightly say this doesn't kind of work, you can

808
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 4: then okay, okay, guys, fine, fine, those two didn't work.

809
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 4: Let Jesus and Paul are on the same team.

810
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 3: That's great.

811
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 4: Now it becomes a very difficult now because then they've

812
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 4: got okay, right, well, how do we deal with these

813
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 4: Paul letters.

814
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 3: We've kind of.

815
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 4: Dealt with the notion of Jesus didn't say these things,

816
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 4: so we don't have to kind of go there, but

817
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 4: Paul did. And we're saying they're on the same team.

818
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 4: But we have to try to make it look like

819
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 4: whatever the outcome is, it has to look like twenty

820
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 4: first century norms. We've just got to get there. We've

821
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 4: got to get to the secular liberal values of how

822
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 4: we live our life, including full orbed feminism that we

823
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 4: have in our culture, so that it becomes really weird

824
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 4: for someone to stand up and like question it and

825
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 4: to say, actually, I don't think the things that we

826
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 4: all think about men and women, and especially on the

827
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 4: role of women in church, home and even in society.

828
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 3: You could argue that it's slightly different biblically in terms

829
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: of the text on that.

830
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 4: I just think that you become the strange, weird alien person,

831
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 4: when in reality we are the aliens. We're the weirdos

832
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 4: for sure. Like the last hundred years has been absolutely

833
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 4: catastrophic to the morality in the West, Christendom values in

834
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 4: the West which have been built over centuries and in

835
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 4: you know, one and a half centuries. Really we've absolutely tankled.

836
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: We just kind of completely try to undermine, the blow

837
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 4: up the entire foundations with dynamite and see how much

838
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 4: damage we can do, over and over and over again.

839
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 4: Absolutely mad. It's been happening on a sliding scale. So

840
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 4: I often have these conversations over on this side of

841
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 4: the pond, like where did it go wrong? Like where

842
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 4: did Britain go wrong? Like there's all sorts of years

843
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 4: or dates you go, is it when this person came

844
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 4: into power? Is it when this law came in and

845
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 4: you're like, I think it's not just like a twenty

846
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 4: thirty year thing. It is a much bigger thing. It's

847
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 4: like a two hundred year thing of a kind of

848
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 4: sliding degradation. And so this is what happens when you

849
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 4: are basically perpetually trying to fit Jesus and Paul, but

850
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 4: again lessly just the whole Bible, because Jesus and Paul

851
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 4: are so often the controversial figures of the New Testament.

852
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 4: Really maybe because Paul just wrote so much and Jesus

853
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 4: is Jesus, that it becomes the go to sort of

854
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 4: like that those are the two people you kind of

855
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 4: have to have, you have to deal with first. And

856
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 4: I think that when people try to just put them

857
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 4: in line with present whatever the present norms are within

858
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 4: your generation, you're bounty.

859
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 3: You know.

860
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 4: There's the phrase, he was a married to the spirit

861
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 4: of the age is going to be a widow in

862
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 4: the next And we've seen that over and over again,

863
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 4: people who wed themselves to whatever's happening right now. Then

864
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 4: thirty years later people go, oh, yeah, we don't believe

865
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 4: that anymore. So that that so apparently Jesus doesn't think

866
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 4: that anymore. He thought it thirty years ago and now

867
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 4: he now he doesn't, and so that's kind of the

868
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 4: next ridiculous funds they tried to they tried to pull.

869
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 4: So it doesn't really matter what the extra Jesus is.

870
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter what they what they say in the

871
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 4: build up to it. They are going to get to

872
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 4: the conclusion that they decided beforehand, which is that Jesus

873
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 4: and Paul basically agree with whatever we currently think is

874
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 4: okay and that and they would they would kind of

875
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 4: be horrified at anyone who said anything different, even though

876
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 4: most of the Christians for most of church history would

877
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 4: have said very different things to us.

878
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: And so, and then the next part of your art piece,

879
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: the heading is how does this thing? How does this

880
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 1: kind of thing happen? So? How does this kind of

881
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 1: thing happen?

882
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the first well, I think the first thing

883
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 4: that they they people will say to do is they

884
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 4: they as I said, they don't feel that they can

885
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 4: challenge these norms because they're so deeply entrenched. So they're

886
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 4: like embedded in the culture and the foundations, so we

887
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 4: can't actually challenge them, They'll be so it will be

888
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 4: horrifying to do that, and we'd be kind of going

889
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 4: against God himself if we did that, even though we're

890
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 4: like going, hang.

891
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 3: On, doesn't God doesn't God?

892
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: Like?

893
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 4: Isn't isn't the Bible God's words? So isn't quoting Paul

894
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 4: and quoting even Jesus in lots of other situations, which

895
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 4: or quoting what Jesus did, like choosing the twelve apostles

896
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 4: and not choosing any women even though you could have

897
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 4: chosen at least one woman for his dei quota if

898
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 4: he really wanted to. Isn't it like, isn't it weird

899
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 4: that we're the ones who are kind of trying our

900
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 4: best to kind of argue for something completely contrary to

901
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 4: what the Bible quite obviously states. And the reason it

902
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 4: happens is because people basically end up kind of going, well,

903
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 4: I need this to work. Like I said, I need

904
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 4: this to fit. I need the Bible to work for

905
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: me because I'm pro Bible, I'm pro God and pro Jesus,

906
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 4: and I need that those guys to work for me.

907
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 4: As it were, rather than us kind of changing and

908
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 4: moving in the direction where God would lead us, it's

909
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: actually going maybe we could actually lead God.

910
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: Maybe we could kind of treat him like a dog.

911
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: Gonna lead a little bit.

912
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 4: The word of God is a kind of little a

913
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 4: pet that we can sort of like move in the

914
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 4: direction we want to and teach it tricks almost to

915
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 4: do what we want to do. I'm actually saying this

916
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 4: off the cuff and says I didn't. But that's something

917
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 4: that basically is is what they're doing. That they're basically

918
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,959
Speaker 4: putting themselves over in an authority over the text.

919
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: And so you can God really say, God really says.

920
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: It all goes back to that.

921
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: It's always the serpent exactly so.

922
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 4: And of course that was the irony that is it's

923
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 4: to a woman, isn't it. So the serpent is tricking

924
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 4: a woman, and that's what Paul refers to in Wan

925
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 4: Timothy too. It's absolutely wild, like feminists cannot get their

926
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 4: heads around this that Paul. It's one reason you know

927
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 4: that in Wan Timothy too, that he couldn't possibly be

928
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 4: just talking about the bolshy women in ephesis, because he's

929
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 4: making an argument that goes all the way back to

930
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 4: creation and it's saying that for you know, there's a

931
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 4: woman who's sin first and she was deceived, and so

932
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 4: there's something about even there about the dynamics of how

933
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 4: God has made men and women, which is just so

934
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 4: hard for people to grasp because they can't deal with generalizations.

935
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 4: They will always take the exceptions and try to make

936
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 4: the exceptions the rule rather than the exceptions proving the

937
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 4: rule when it comes to men and women and their proclivity.

938
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 3: Is that kind of thing.

939
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 4: And so yeah, So basically that in trying to and

940
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 4: trying to basically make the Bible fit their direction of

941
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 4: travel that they're currently in, and they don't want that

942
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 4: to be interrupted, they will go to any lengths to

943
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 4: try to make that work.

944
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 3: So yeah, and so in the article I do refer

945
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 3: to another.

946
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 4: Piece I wrote called Women Leading Men a narrative event,

947
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 4: which is I won't go into all of it all

948
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 4: of it now, but it's basically like a fictional dialogue

949
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 4: I wrote on the basis of these kind of pseudo

950
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 4: academic conversations that I've observed many times over the years,

951
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 4: and just imagining someone just curiously kind of half knowingly,

952
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 4: half unknowingly, like just asking curious questions like okay, so

953
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 4: Paul said that, Like why isn't that true?

954
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 3: Oh? That was just for like that one. That's a

955
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 3: narrative really, So it's a story. Really, the story.

956
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 4: What we're supposed to learn from the story just kind

957
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 4: of you know, in ephesis, these women were doing this, Okay,

958
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 4: so are we allowed? So when do we know when

959
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 4: the part of the New Testament is a story and

960
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 4: when it isn't. When is it a narrative event that

961
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 4: just happened and we don't need to apply it? And

962
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 4: when is it authoritative didactic teaching? And so it kind

963
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 4: of goes back and forth of the kind of arguments

964
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 4: to get tied up in knots on that.

965
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 3: So you know, feel free to go and have a

966
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 3: look at that. Yeah, but that's how one of the

967
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 3: other strategies that's employed.

968
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you and then you talk about the strange

969
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: wisdom of God and this is really fascinating to me

970
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: because you were were you saved at sixteen years old? Yeah?

971
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: I was. Yeah.

972
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that will take me a long time to tell

973
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 3: that testimony if it's a long one.

974
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you need to come back. And didn't share

975
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: that whole story. But what's interesting about that is you

976
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: you were reading the Bible, the King James version, and

977
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: what one verse that really struck you was First Corinthians

978
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: or one Corinthians, as you would say two five that

979
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men,

980
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: but in the power of God. Now talk about that

981
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: and how that affected you and how it relates to

982
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 1: this article.

983
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 4: Yeah so, and I'll tell you actually the specific like

984
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 4: I vaguely referred to it in the article, but I'll

985
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 4: the specific situation was, again, I'm a new Christian. I

986
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 4: don't know anything at all. I don't even know how

987
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 4: I knew what Corinthians was. I knew that, I said.

988
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 4: I didn't know there was a one or two Corinthians

989
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 4: or first or second. I just knew that there was

990
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 4: a thing or Cointhians. I had to look it up

991
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 4: in the Contents, and I was in bed and I

992
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 4: couldn't sleep, and I just had in my head Cointhians

993
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 4: Corinthians going around abound.

994
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: So I had this new tiny thing fact. Let me

995
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 3: just stop a second, and let's get it.

996
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: This. This is.

997
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: My dad.

998
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 4: My dad gave me this Bible before I was, before

999
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 4: I was a Christian, but before he was even a

1000
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 4: Christian at the millennium. I don't know why he was.

1001
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 4: It's just a dad thing to do what needed lost

1002
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 4: a Christians. But he was like, it's the Millennium. I'm

1003
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 4: gonna He gave me a gold sovereign worth about one

1004
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 4: hundred pounds, and he said, you're never allowed to sell this.

1005
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 4: It's in case you're kind of in the absolute poverty

1006
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 4: and you don't have anything else. It's a gold sovereign.

1007
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 4: It will always be worth money. And so I still

1008
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 4: have that, have the gold sovereign. And I got on

1009
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 4: the on on the millennium.

1010
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 5: I don't know why the millennium precipitated this, this kind

1011
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 5: of like thing, my dad, you need to have yeah,

1012
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 5: boom and water k thing, and it was yeah.

1013
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 4: So I got my KJV little Bible and look at this.

1014
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 4: Look how hard it is to read. Honestly, I know

1015
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 4: you have to have magnifying glass to read that. So

1016
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 4: I'm then yeah, I'm then in the middle of the

1017
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 4: night picking up this Corinthians reading through it.

1018
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 3: I have no idea what it's about.

1019
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 4: I'm like reading through like it's in the archaic language,

1020
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 4: and I just feel like in the spirit that I

1021
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 4: had a sense that you can listen to God and

1022
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 4: God can tell you stuff, but that the Bible's authoritative.

1023
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 4: I was kind of learning what that meant and as

1024
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 4: I'm reading through One Corinthians, because I just read it

1025
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 4: the first one, I get to this verse in chapter two,

1026
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 4: chapter two, verse five, which was that your face should

1027
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 4: should rest not in the wisdom.

1028
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 3: Of men, but in the power of God.

1029
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 4: And it was really it kind of struck home to

1030
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 4: me at the time because I was that day I'd

1031
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 4: been told by my English teacher in what we call

1032
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 4: A levels and what you call her high school. Maybe

1033
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 4: I was sixteen, whatever that means to you guys. Yeah,

1034
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 4: he said, you're not going to be You're not going

1035
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 4: to do English literature university. I was like, that's the

1036
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 4: only thing I was planning to do. I was halfway

1037
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 4: through the A levels and basically one more year before

1038
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 4: you go to university. And that's like and he was like,

1039
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 4: there's no there's literally no chance you've got. You've got

1040
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 4: a snowballs chance in hell of going of doing this

1041
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 4: at university. You're not up to I think I was

1042
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 4: getting terrible grades in my first year. I was, I

1043
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 4: was getting like ease, and but I was I had

1044
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 4: another teacher previously who was like really liked I think

1045
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 4: I must have had a very floral rhetoric at the time,

1046
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 4: and he sort of like was a lot more lenient.

1047
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: He was.

1048
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 4: He was like the kind of pro lgbt of Angelis,

1049
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 4: because oh yeah, you'll be fine, this would be great.

1050
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 4: And this other guy was actually just really likes Stone

1051
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 4: probably actually kind of true, like this is like you're

1052
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 4: just clearly not up to it. You're not gonna be

1053
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 4: able to do it. And I was like, Okay, that's

1054
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 4: like really rocked me and I don't even know what

1055
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 4: I'm gonna do in my life.

1056
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 3: This is crazy.

1057
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 4: And then I just read that verse and since that

1058
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 4: was that I was going to be able to do

1059
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 4: the opposite of what this teacher said. Now, of course

1060
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 4: that does motivate you to actually work hard. He doesn't

1061
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 4: just magically God just like magically sprinkle some dust over

1062
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 4: your essays. But I ended up going to university and

1063
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 4: getting a first which is if you have that language,

1064
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 4: first class degree, which again, when I was at university,

1065
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 4: I had a lecturer who was an atheist who told

1066
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 4: me the same thing and said, you're not going to

1067
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 4: get a first. You're doing too much evangelism with the

1068
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 4: Christian Union on the campus. There's no way you're going

1069
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 4: to be able to get a first, you're doing twenty

1070
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 4: hours a week of your mission stuff.

1071
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 3: And I was like, that's fine.

1072
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 4: I didn't need to get a first, but if I,

1073
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 4: if God wants me to get a first, I'll get

1074
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 4: a first. And he was like, I guarantee you won't

1075
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 4: get it first, and I said, I will if God

1076
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 4: wants me to get it first, it's fine and we

1077
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 4: don't need.

1078
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 3: To argue about it.

1079
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 4: And he was like will I got You're not going

1080
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 4: to get a first because you have to cut out

1081
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 4: all this evangelism. It was like, I'm not going to

1082
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 4: cut out of angelism. Do you not understand? Why would

1083
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 4: I do that in order.

1084
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 3: To complicate you?

1085
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 4: And then and he was like, look, if you if

1086
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 4: you get a first, I'll come to church. That's how

1087
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 4: sure I am that you're not going to get a first.

1088
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 3: And I got, I got this.

1089
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 4: I just scraped over the land and got a first

1090
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 4: in the end. And then so I had to hold

1091
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 4: him to his vow, which which was very hard to

1092
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 4: get him to do. He didn't actually ever come to church,

1093
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 4: but he ended up having to watch an evangelistic video

1094
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 4: that I made that was like forty five minutes long.

1095
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 4: And then we had a long dialogue about it, so

1096
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 4: we got some got somewhere with it in the end.

1097
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 4: But that was again all an expression of basically, the

1098
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 4: wisdom of God is bigger than the wisdom of man.

1099
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 4: So what people tell you is inevitably the case. This

1100
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 4: is just the way it is, and you don't get

1101
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 4: to argue with that. This is the ceiling and your

1102
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 4: culture and your generation, your social conventions you've been given.

1103
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 4: You're not allowed to say otherwise. God is allowed to

1104
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 4: say otherwise. Actually, because God is God and you're not.

1105
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 4: So that's where the whole concept of the wisdom of

1106
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 4: God comes in, and the wisdom of God triumphs over

1107
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 4: the wisdom of men. It doesn't mean that we don't

1108
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 4: care about natural wisdom. That's a whole other philosophical discussion.

1109
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 4: I do believe in natural law, et cetera. I just

1110
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 4: mean that God's revelation is a triumphant and God's revelation

1111
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 4: is final. And so though ultimately in my situation that

1112
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 4: was about a personal situation, actually that verse is more

1113
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,439
Speaker 4: profound than just that one moment in my life.

1114
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 3: Actually was.

1115
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 4: It shaped the rest of my life in the way

1116
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 4: I see scripture itself and the way that I see

1117
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 4: it challenging the conventions of our day, which is something

1118
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 4: that you know, that's why I got in trouble lecturer

1119
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 4: ultimately for challenging the conventions on LGBT, And ultimately, you know,

1120
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 4: you get in similar trouble, probably worse in evangelical circles

1121
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 4: when you challenge feminism, because many evangelicals are happy to

1122
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 4: challenge LGBT in one way or another, but don't touch

1123
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 4: feminism or you know, the she wolves come out.

1124
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. By the way, getting a first in is in

1125
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: the equivalent in the States is graduating summa cum laude

1126
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: basically is okay, so's it's just high honors. It's very high.

1127
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: It's like the highest honors. So good on your mate.

1128
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 1: So uh. And you say in the and you say,

1129
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: it has been sad to observe within recent decades just

1130
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: how many Bible believing women have been duped to believe

1131
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: that because God's wisdom appears so alien to the feminist

1132
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: world in which they live and breathe and move and

1133
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: have their being. As I just added, because it is

1134
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: so misunderstandable, there must be some something wrong with it.

1135
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: So there's this kind of like you know, this it's

1136
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: like this osmosis, you know, we're in this this this

1137
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: feminist kind of soup or this ocean, and were these

1138
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: fish that are just absorbing this and it's hard to

1139
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: break through that.

1140
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And that's basically because many women have

1141
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,439
Speaker 4: just been told that they're following the examples they've been set,

1142
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 4: and those examples are obviously the women in the churches,

1143
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 4: but also the men who aren't challenging feminism. So there's

1144
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 4: a bit of a problem here of like preaching that

1145
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 4: doesn't ever challenge women, so it assumes that women are

1146
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 4: angels who don't sin, and so it would be the

1147
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 4: worst thing ever for a pastor who's going to more.

1148
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 4: Even even in the feminist world, it's still weird for

1149
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 4: women to be pastors, I know. You know, you had

1150
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 4: Rick Warren and the SBC trying to kind of trying

1151
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 4: to sort of strong arm and use his influence to

1152
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 4: try and move the SBC in that direction in the States,

1153
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 4: for example, but still a women pastor in evangelical circles

1154
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 4: is like a bridge too far for most Americans. I

1155
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 4: think in Britain it's slightly different, as a Baptist tradition

1156
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 4: here which has loads of women passes, but still the

1157
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 4: average conservative evangelical church wouldn't have a women pastores. It's

1158
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 4: always men who are preaching generally, and so they find

1159
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 4: it hard because they're trying to be chivalrous inverted commas,

1160
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 4: and so therefore they don't want to tell women off

1161
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 4: because that would be bad. And then the women are

1162
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 4: likely to respond more emotionally to that and then call

1163
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 4: him abusive and say that actually my sermon, his sermon.

1164
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 3: Harmed me in some way.

1165
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 4: And who wants to hear of someone you know and

1166
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 4: yet another man seeming to be toxically masculine in the

1167
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 4: way he approaches things. And so basically it conditions the

1168
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 4: preachers to not challenge women and therefore not to challenge

1169
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 4: the issues of feminism coming to the church. See what

1170
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 4: you'll often hear is if you do hear a critique

1171
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 4: of feminism in evangelical circles, it will be something like, oh, yeah,

1172
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 4: like extreme radical feminism is bad, but like normal feminism

1173
00:54:58,480 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 4: is completely fine.

1174
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:00,439
Speaker 1: I know it isn't.

1175
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 4: Actually, like if you just look at the origins, no

1176
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 4: one really looked into the history of it at all,

1177
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 4: and how much of it was at the very beginning

1178
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 4: undermining the household as a as a concept in in

1179
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 4: terms of the household that God has set up. And

1180
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 4: there's so much in the New Testament about the household

1181
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 4: that people just kind of forget all about it. And

1182
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 4: I was interviewing a guy not long ago called C. R.

1183
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 4: Wiley and an author who wrote a book called The

1184
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 4: Household and the War for the Cosmos, which is him

1185
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 4: kind of going, this is how significant the household is

1186
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 4: in God's plan in terms of the mission of the

1187
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 4: church even and how much it affects all of society

1188
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 4: as a kind of bulwark, as a building block for

1189
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 4: all healthy societies, you know, as you guys know in

1190
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 4: the States a lot in terms of the importance of family.

1191
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 4: So feminism has always undermined that.

1192
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 3: And yet there's so many boons for women seemingly.

1193
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 4: That it's hard for them to you know, to put

1194
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 4: that away because actually they they've inherited all of these

1195
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 4: sort of these positives they would see as positives, even

1196
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 4: though there's loads of obvious negatives. There's loads of obvious

1197
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 4: negatives for loads of women who end up let's say,

1198
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 4: without children, or with that as many children as they'd like,

1199
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 4: or they seem unfulfilled, they didn't spend enough time with

1200
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 4: their children when they were young, that kind of thing.

1201
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 4: They'll pushed back into another career. But they were told

1202
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 4: that career would fulfill them the same way motherhood would

1203
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 4: fulfill them, or they would, you know, whatever it is.

1204
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 4: It might be that they were told that they should

1205
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 4: take on the responsibility of a man, either in their

1206
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 4: family or in their work or in the church, and

1207
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 4: they'll just run it like they would as a mother,

1208
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 4: and so that will ultimately affect the church as well

1209
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 4: long term. But they'll feel like they're doing a good job.

1210
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 4: And if you came and said you shouldn't really be

1211
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 4: doing that, that is impossible. It's not computable. You couldn't

1212
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 4: really if you you can't have an abstract debate about it.

1213
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 4: Because her whole and for her perception of her whole

1214
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 4: calling and everything that she knows of who God is

1215
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 4: and what is good about the world is shattered. And

1216
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 4: she thinks that it's because what she's believed her whole

1217
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 4: life is just true and that's what everyone's sawt and

1218
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 4: it just isn't. And there's a kind of possibly an

1219
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 4: existential crisis for lots of feminists coming her questions when

1220
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 4: they kind of realized, actually, this feminism thing hasn't been

1221
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 4: around that long, and what did we do?

1222
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 3: What did all the women do before that? For thousands

1223
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 3: of years?

1224
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 4: But all of these women just abused in this horrible

1225
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 4: system of evil men controlling all these women.

1226
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 3: Is that do you really believe that?

1227
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 4: Do you really believe that's the world that God created?

1228
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 4: And is that the world that God has seen fit

1229
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 4: to grow his church within? And see all these glorious

1230
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,439
Speaker 4: things in culture grow up in this horrible environment where

1231
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 4: women were just forced to have all these children and

1232
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 4: against their will. And it's almost that this horrible perception

1233
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 4: of history which is required so required narrative to make

1234
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 4: feminism seem like it's better, and I just don't think

1235
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 4: it is. There's more women on antidepressants today than has

1236
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 4: ever been the case. You know, there's a book by

1237
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 4: is it Becha Merkle even Exile that talks about the

1238
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,479
Speaker 4: problems of women in the modern world who actually aren't happy.

1239
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,919
Speaker 4: So it's kind of positive that there's increasingly some women

1240
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 4: who are speaking out about it. On our side of

1241
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 4: the partner's a woman called Louise Perry who recently became

1242
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 4: a Christian, and she was a kind of but maybe

1243
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 4: she still call herself some kind of feminist, but she

1244
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 4: would challenge the sexual revolution and its effects on women

1245
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 4: in loads of ways. So so basically the atmosphere that

1246
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 4: people are in it it's like it's hard to convince

1247
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 4: somebody feminism isn't good when, yeah, that job depends on

1248
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 4: them thinking it's good.

1249
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: Whatever.

1250
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 2: Right.

1251
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: I just actually just saw a viral clip today on

1252
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: Twitter of a woman probably she's probably, I don't know,

1253
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: in her late thirties, and she was just talking about

1254
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: how she was sold a lie and how she regrets

1255
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: all these things in her life now and she didn't

1256
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: do you know, she didn't have the family she wanted

1257
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: now and she regrets not staying home with her kids

1258
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: and et cetera, et cetera. And what I love about

1259
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: my own mother is she was not only not a feminist,

1260
00:58:54,720 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: but she was an anti feminist. She my mother would

1261
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: call herself. My father's name was Leslie Cook. I don't know,

1262
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: like I guess he was named I guess they named

1263
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:08,959
Speaker 1: him a for Leslie Howard from Gone with the Wind.

1264
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,439
Speaker 1: But my father's name was Leslie Cook. So my mother

1265
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 1: would call herself when she would talk on the phone

1266
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: to some I don't know, she was calling some whatever

1267
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: to make an appointment, she would call herself missus leslie cook.

1268
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean, could you imagine someone doing that now? And uh,

1269
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: I just love And then of course she also was

1270
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: an anti feminist in the fact that she had eight children. Yeah,

1271
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: that'll do it, and so you uh and by the way,

1272
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: she was a quote this is and this isn't God,

1273
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure a feminist creator made up this term. But

1274
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: she was a stay at home mom my mother, which

1275
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 1: is which is a just ridiculous term.

1276
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 3: So, yeah, my wife gets asked all the time, you know,

1277
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 3: so what do you do? It's like, yeah, the most

1278
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 3: offensive question. So well, I'm a homemaker. Yeah, only like

1279
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,439
Speaker 3: the kind of most important job in the world.

1280
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, the most beautiful, most creative, beautiful job you

1281
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: could ever have in the world. Like, yeah, like what

1282
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: do you want to do? Just be Dilbert.

1283
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, the phenomenal influence of of a of a mother

1284
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 4: is unbelievably like significant to civilization. So it's just insane.

1285
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 4: The trade off is so terrible. So so it's I'm

1286
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 4: glad that there are women like your mother, and uh.

1287
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and your wife and so so, and then you

1288
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: quote we're we're running out of time, but you quote

1289
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: another quote from Paul when he says, oh, and why

1290
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: do you tell us why you do this?

1291
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 3: Oh?

1292
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: The depths and riches of the riches and the wisdom

1293
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: of God. In the wisdom and knowledge of God, How

1294
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: unsearchable are his judgments and how unscrutable his ways?

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01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah.

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01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 4: So actually funny that that verse in Roman's eleven was

1297
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 4: what I was reading my Bible. That's how my mind

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01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 4: works sometimes, and like that, the article basically came from

1299
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 4: that verse I was reading. And of course he's talking

1300
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 4: about Israel and the mystery of Israel and the fate

1301
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 4: of the Jews, cut off branches, etc. And the kind

1302
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 4: of mystery of salvation. So that's what that's in the

1303
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 4: immediate context, that's what it's about. But it struck me

1304
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 4: again a bit like were the one Corindians two, verse five,

1305
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 4: issue of God's wisdom triumphing over our wisdom, and how

1306
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 4: there's something perennially mysterious about God's wisdom. But even in

1307
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 4: such cases where I, you know, you and I might

1308
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 4: will agree on on feminism being a problem, There'll be

1309
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 4: some people who to whom it appears still like a

1310
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 4: mystery that is unveiled. And I think that that's the

1311
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 4: big issue, that people are unwilling to follow the wisdom

1312
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 4: of God when it seems difficult, inconvenient, or inscrutable or mysterious.

1313
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 4: So let's say there's a woman who feels really in

1314
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 4: her bones that she's called to ministry over men, And

1315
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 4: like I said earlier, I don't think that means that

1316
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 4: God has called you to exercise our sority over men

1317
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 4: in contradiction of his word where he said you can't.

1318
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 3: And because it's just like a gay.

1319
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 4: Person saying, I just we're so in love and God

1320
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 4: is just in this, like you know the cord of

1321
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 4: three strands. God is just in this and you just

1322
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 4: can't tell us otherwise. Well, it's exactly the same. So

1323
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 4: if there's an even do like a feminists listening to us,

1324
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 4: your logic is exactly the same. If you say I

1325
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 4: want to do the thing and God has just told me,

1326
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 4: it's exactly I've had so many conversations with gay people

1327
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 4: who would identify as Christians in the Methodist Church and

1328
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 4: other places who are just like that is just you

1329
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 4: can't argue out of it because it's like God is

1330
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 4: here and we know that God has like been with

1331
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 4: us in our marriage or our relationship in some way,

1332
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 4: so you can't argue, apparently, and it's the same thing.

1333
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 3: And so I just think that that's the issue. You've

1334
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 3: got to know, what you've done.

1335
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 4: Is you've interpreted God's wisdom. You've kind of pushed it

1336
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 4: off to the side of the inconvenient bits. They just

1337
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 4: challenge you, and then you've, you know, rather than rest

1338
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 4: without obeying God's wisdom even when it's difficult for you,

1339
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 4: even when it's mysterious and you don't really know, why

1340
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 4: would God stop women doing this? Why would he not

1341
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 4: want me to lead this church when it seems like

1342
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 4: I'm doing a good job and all these people keep

1343
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 4: telling me how my sermons are going well. So shouldn't

1344
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 4: Surely it's going well and God.

1345
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 3: Is in this and it's good.

1346
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 4: It's the same as a gay couple who like someone

1347
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 4: meets them, Oh, you're way better than all these divorced

1348
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 4: heterosexual couples. You're such a great relationship, etcetera. Well, if

1349
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 4: you saw that kind of feedback and you're a gay couple,

1350
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 4: obviously go yeah, God is in this.

1351
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 1: This is good.

1352
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 4: So I think it's one of those things where people

1353
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 4: go again the fallacy of trying to prove your situation

1354
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 4: is what God agrees with. You're pulling God along as

1355
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 4: the pet, the dog.

1356
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: On the lead.

1357
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 4: He will agree with me, and now he really, you know,

1358
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 4: he's We're so glad that we've you know, I think

1359
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 4: I did a whole like a bit of a satirical

1360
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 4: part in the article of you know God. So God

1361
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 4: must be so glad that we've come along to kind of,

1362
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:54,479
Speaker 4: you know, teach him how to do his wisdom better

1363
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 4: than he told us. So our version of God's wisdom

1364
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 4: and judgments are, which Paul call in Screwta in Romans eleven,

1365
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 4: really are far better than God's version of God's wisdom

1366
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 4: and judgments. You know, that's kind of the reality that

1367
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 4: we'll end up dealing with because people are so unwilling

1368
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 4: to challenge that that very that very core thing, whether

1369
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 4: it's about who they are as a person or what

1370
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 4: they're doing in their life, which is those two can

1371
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 4: often be connected. So if it's if it's ministry related,

1372
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 4: it's just God's wisdom must just need some editing, It

1373
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 4: needs some some of our kind of you know, sprinkles

1374
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 4: some magic dust over it, whether from scholars or whether

1375
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 4: through just our sort of finessing of the text, and

1376
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 4: then it will somehow agree with us and agree that

1377
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 4: whatever we're currently doing is what God wants.

1378
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: Yes, And you in that you in the your article,

1379
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: there's a there's some more into it, into it, But

1380
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 1: you in the article with the quote from Job, well,

1381
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: what is that quote? Yeah?

1382
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 4: It was if I remember it's God in It's Job

1383
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 4: thirty eight where God speaks to Job out of the whirlwind,

1384
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 4: and it's like, where were you when I created the

1385
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 4: foundations of the earth? And I was kind of thinking,

1386
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 4: that's that's something that a feminist could bear in mind

1387
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 4: when they're when they're thinking these things.

1388
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 3: Because again, you.

1389
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 4: Think of Job, Gosh, I think somebody's got like a

1390
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 4: he's got a cause for grievance, a cause for being

1391
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 4: a persecuted community, like we hear from so many feminists.

1392
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 4: The women have just been pressed down and abused for

1393
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 4: so long. You think Job, Hello, how did God respond

1394
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 4: to Job? He didn't say I'm so so sorry for

1395
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 4: your heart, I'm so so sorry that the God inc

1396
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 4: Is going to write you this letter. We're going to

1397
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 4: do some compensation. That's going to be really and he's

1398
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 4: just Job has been absolutely through the mill, and he's

1399
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 4: had people telling him he's wrong the whole time, et cetera.

1400
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 4: And God does rebuke those people actually, which is interesting,

1401
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 4: of course, but he also you know, he speaks to rebuke.

1402
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 4: He kind of speaks to Job in a very by

1403
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 4: reasserting that his wisdom is above Job's wisdom.

1404
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 3: Where were you? You weren't there?

1405
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 1: Were you?

1406
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 3: You weren't there.

1407
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 4: Before time began? And I was laying the foundations of

1408
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 4: the earth. So maybe like, maybe we'll go with my plan.

1409
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 4: Maybe we'll go with my wisdom unless you were there?

1410
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 4: I mean you do you give orders to the morning?

1411
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 4: I mean, do you when was the last one you

1412
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 4: gave orders to the morning?

1413
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 3: Could?

1414
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: I do?

1415
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 3: I do that all the time.

1416
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 4: I do it every morning, actually, and I've been doing

1417
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 4: it for a long time since before time. And so

1418
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 4: I think that that whole notion of like who who

1419
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 4: are we?

1420
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: Who are we?

1421
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 4: It goes back to that one Gudians passage. You know

1422
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 4: that the wisdom of men is is not what our

1423
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 4: faith Wesson. It's not the conventions of the age. It's

1424
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 4: the wisdom of the ages, which is God's wisdom, which

1425
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 4: is always triumphed throughout time and throughout history. And I

1426
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 4: think that's something that we need to hold on to

1427
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 4: as those who claim to hold faster God's word in

1428
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 4: all these matters.

1429
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: All right, well we're going to leave it there. Well,

1430
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 1: link to the article below and tell us just I

1431
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: mean they obviously if you click on the link, you'll

1432
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: get to your substack. But how do people find your substack?

1433
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 4: I think they would, Well, they can find the link,

1434
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 4: but they can I guess they. It's that good Fight

1435
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 4: dot substack dot com. And so if you're familiar with substack,

1436
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 4: it's kind of a new kind of cool blog. It's

1437
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 4: not really new anymore, but like it's what it's what

1438
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 4: everyone's got, what it's what. This makes blogging more respectable,

1439
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, And so people it's kind of a

1440
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 4: social media platform where people are writing kind of significant

1441
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 4: articles which are linking into one another, that kind of thing. So,

1442
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 4: if you're not familiar with substut, could you go and

1443
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 4: check it out? And I said that good Fight is

1444
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 4: one you could also find me on Twitter if you

1445
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 4: want to go and find out bet more trouble.

1446
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: Yes, well, Aaron Edwards, thank you so much for coming

1447
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 1: on at the last minute. I know it's late there.

1448
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: It's probably ten o'clock in the UK or something.

1449
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 4: Yeah it's ten, yes it is, yeah, twenty two yes, right, yeah,

1450
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 4: but go get something.

1451
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 3: The things I do for you America today.

1452
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:37,439
Speaker 1: Really you really do a lot for the US. Thank

1453
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: you so much. I appreciate it.

1454
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 3: That is pleasure.

1455
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 1: God, bless God, bless. Thank you for.

1456
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 2: Listening to this episode of The Beckett Cook Show. Your

1457
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 2: support makes this content possible. All episodes of The Becky

1458
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 2: Cook Show are also available on YouTube. For more information

1459
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 2: about Beckett and his ministry, visit his website at Benkacook

1460
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 2: dot com.

1461
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 1: Thank you to the team at Life Audio for their

1462
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: partnership with us. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

1463
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: you will find more faith centered podcasts about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

1464
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 1: and more.