1 00:00:12,070 --> 00:00:14,970 Speaker 1: This is Donna Jones, and you are listening to That's 2 00:00:15,190 --> 00:00:17,890 Speaker 1: Just What I Needed. Hey, friend, if you've ever been 3 00:00:17,930 --> 00:00:20,790 Speaker 1: in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, wow, that 4 00:00:20,810 --> 00:00:23,530 Speaker 1: was just what I needed, you know how life-giving that 5 00:00:23,550 --> 00:00:26,070 Speaker 1: can be. Well, that's what this podcast is all about. 6 00:00:26,410 --> 00:00:29,290 Speaker 1: We're women who want to know, love, and follow God 7 00:00:29,470 --> 00:00:32,169 Speaker 1: in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just how to 8 00:00:32,220 --> 00:00:34,970 Speaker 1: do it. So each week, we'll talk about what following 9 00:00:35,010 --> 00:00:37,410 Speaker 1: God looks like in the midst of daily demands and 10 00:00:37,590 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what we need, 11 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:46,260 Speaker 1: it's actually exactly what we need. Welcome to the podcast. 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,740 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're here. Before we get into today's conversation, 13 00:00:51,140 --> 00:00:54,660 Speaker 1: let's connect. You'll find me on Instagram at Donna A. Jones, 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,190 Speaker 1: and on Facebook, I'm at Donna Jones Speaker and Author. 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,590 Speaker 1: I would love for you to sign up for my 16 00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:04,490 Speaker 1: newsletter at my website, DonnaJones.com. or just get the free 17 00:01:04,530 --> 00:01:08,250 Speaker 1: resources that are there. So whatever way that feels comfortable 18 00:01:08,290 --> 00:01:10,110 Speaker 1: for you, I would love to get to know you 19 00:01:10,150 --> 00:01:13,490 Speaker 1: more and connect with you on a more personal basis. Well, 20 00:01:13,569 --> 00:01:15,889 Speaker 1: let me tell you a little bit about today's guest. 21 00:01:16,130 --> 00:01:20,630 Speaker 1: Her name is Monica Ritchie. She is an on-air radio 22 00:01:20,690 --> 00:01:24,310 Speaker 1: host out of the Twin Cities, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Minnesota. 23 00:01:24,610 --> 00:01:28,250 Speaker 1: And she is the host of the popular podcast called 24 00:01:28,390 --> 00:01:32,250 Speaker 1: Theologically Fashioned. She's written this great new book called Fashion 25 00:01:32,310 --> 00:01:35,370 Speaker 1: by Faith. And I love what people are saying is 26 00:01:35,450 --> 00:01:39,260 Speaker 1: that this is about the spiritual disciplines, but it is encouraging, 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,740 Speaker 1: it's warm, and it is not at all overwhelming. So 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: help me welcome my guest, Monica Ritchie. Well, Monica, welcome 29 00:01:49,460 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: to the podcast. 30 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,870 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. 31 00:01:52,890 --> 00:01:58,350 Speaker 1: I am excited to have you. I just met you, Monica. 32 00:01:58,850 --> 00:02:02,330 Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about yourself as we 33 00:02:02,370 --> 00:02:06,250 Speaker 1: kind of kick off our conversation. Sure. Yeah. 34 00:02:06,510 --> 00:02:09,110 Speaker 2: I married my husband. I've been together. It'll be 20 35 00:02:09,110 --> 00:02:10,050 Speaker 2: years next year. 36 00:02:10,470 --> 00:02:11,410 Speaker 1: Congratulations. 37 00:02:11,750 --> 00:02:15,580 Speaker 2: Thank you. I live in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, if 38 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: people aren't familiar with me saying the Twin Cities. And 39 00:02:19,340 --> 00:02:23,139 Speaker 2: we have got two girls. They are 14, almost 16. 40 00:02:23,139 --> 00:02:26,700 Speaker 2: So ninth and 10th graders. Life is good. And I 41 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:31,090 Speaker 2: went to seminary. And when I was sitting in those classes, 42 00:02:31,150 --> 00:02:33,310 Speaker 2: I felt like, oh, these things are so good. They're 43 00:02:33,330 --> 00:02:35,510 Speaker 2: so good. Why can't everybody know all of these things? 44 00:02:35,870 --> 00:02:39,370 Speaker 2: And so that's where the idea for this book was 45 00:02:39,430 --> 00:02:40,610 Speaker 2: born that we'll talk about. 46 00:02:41,190 --> 00:02:44,710 Speaker 1: Okay, I love that. And just a fun fact, Monica, 47 00:02:44,750 --> 00:02:47,830 Speaker 1: that my listeners probably don't know because I just started 48 00:02:47,950 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: this week. I just started seminary as well. 49 00:02:50,290 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: You did? 50 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:52,139 Speaker 1: Oh, congratulations. 51 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: Where are you going and tell me about it. Denver? 52 00:02:54,740 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: Uh-huh, Denver. So I'm in the Women's Leadership Cohort getting 53 00:02:58,800 --> 00:02:59,540 Speaker 1: my master's there. 54 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,810 Speaker 2: Oh, fantastic. I know so many women who are in 55 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,110 Speaker 2: that program and they are all wonderful. And so I 56 00:03:07,150 --> 00:03:09,530 Speaker 2: have no doubt this will be a great experience for you. 57 00:03:09,650 --> 00:03:10,150 Speaker 2: So excited. 58 00:03:10,580 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited about it. But really interesting, your 59 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,940 Speaker 1: background is because you were a social, or still probably are, 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: social media influencer. And then you go to seminary and 61 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,300 Speaker 1: there's this whole, okay, the culture and the whole social 62 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: media thing and how it related to seminary. So talk 63 00:03:29,860 --> 00:03:32,940 Speaker 1: to us a little bit about the cognitive dissonance that 64 00:03:32,980 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: you experienced. 65 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: Sure. My background is in retail merchandising and I spent 66 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,540 Speaker 2: some time as a freelance photo wardrobe stylist kind of 67 00:03:43,630 --> 00:03:47,270 Speaker 2: in that world. And from that point, I actually like 68 00:03:47,410 --> 00:03:49,510 Speaker 2: stopped doing that, stayed home full time with my kids. 69 00:03:49,810 --> 00:03:51,770 Speaker 2: And during that time where I was staying home full 70 00:03:51,810 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: time with really little kids, I had a family friend 71 00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: who was like, hey, there's this new app. that you 72 00:03:57,420 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: can get for your phone. It's called Instagram. You know, 73 00:03:59,870 --> 00:04:02,290 Speaker 2: it was like, this was brand new, right? And he 74 00:04:02,330 --> 00:04:03,850 Speaker 2: was like, I think this would be kind of a 75 00:04:03,970 --> 00:04:07,750 Speaker 2: fun way for you to showcase some of your like 76 00:04:07,950 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: fashion ideas. So I downloaded the app and started sharing 77 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: kind of influencer mom content, Plus, at the time, I 78 00:04:18,140 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: was in a Bible study and kind of started sharing 79 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,910 Speaker 2: more about, and I was in leadership in this Bible study. 80 00:04:24,950 --> 00:04:27,390 Speaker 2: So I kind of started sharing more about what I 81 00:04:27,430 --> 00:04:29,529 Speaker 2: was learning and what that looked like and how that 82 00:04:29,730 --> 00:04:32,750 Speaker 2: played into my life. Well, at the same time, right, 83 00:04:32,790 --> 00:04:35,830 Speaker 2: and I didn't know that Christian influencer was a thing. 84 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,340 Speaker 2: This was like back when Instagram first started. So like 85 00:04:38,420 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: niches weren't real. You know, there was no algorithm. It 86 00:04:41,020 --> 00:04:43,260 Speaker 2: was just like you just followed people and you saw 87 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: their posts in chronological order. Like it was wild. And 88 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: I didn't know that Christian Influencer was a thing. But 89 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: I started seeing all of this faith-based content. And yeah, 90 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:02,289 Speaker 2: I started to really wrestle with what am I seeing online? 91 00:05:02,670 --> 00:05:06,130 Speaker 2: What am I learning? What is, I don't know if 92 00:05:06,270 --> 00:05:08,630 Speaker 2: real is the right word, but like, how is this 93 00:05:09,150 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: fitting all together? And a lot of it is mixed 94 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,220 Speaker 2: and confusing messages. And A lot of it is really aesthetic. 95 00:05:16,580 --> 00:05:20,350 Speaker 2: And I'm just having all of these feelings about all 96 00:05:20,390 --> 00:05:23,830 Speaker 2: of it, frankly. And so lo and behold, I go 97 00:05:23,870 --> 00:05:27,430 Speaker 2: to seminary. And honestly, it happened as simple as that. 98 00:05:27,610 --> 00:05:29,610 Speaker 2: It was like, I woke up one day, I've always 99 00:05:29,670 --> 00:05:33,930 Speaker 2: loved studying the Bible truly. And I felt this intense 100 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: need to go to seminary. And it felt like I 101 00:05:37,450 --> 00:05:40,540 Speaker 2: got like a, okay, Monica, go. And then I just went. 102 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,070 Speaker 2: So there wasn't a lot of processing time. I just 103 00:05:44,089 --> 00:05:46,310 Speaker 2: did it. And so I went to Bethel Seminary that's 104 00:05:46,370 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: in St. Paul, Minnesota, and graduated with my master's in 105 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:51,540 Speaker 2: Christian thought from there. 106 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: Okay, which is really interesting, Christian thought, and then seeing 107 00:05:55,580 --> 00:05:59,100 Speaker 1: these influencers. And okay, think about that. I mean, I 108 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,220 Speaker 1: haven't really even thought about this until we're having this 109 00:06:01,260 --> 00:06:05,460 Speaker 1: conversation right now. So I reserve the right to renege 110 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,250 Speaker 1: anything that I'm about to say. I mean, because, you know, 111 00:06:08,290 --> 00:06:12,110 Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram. You want to post encouraging things, but... 112 00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:16,270 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people, that's where they're 113 00:06:16,310 --> 00:06:20,900 Speaker 1: getting like the bulk of their biblical ideas or their 114 00:06:20,940 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: Bible verses is on some influencer on social media. And also, 115 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,700 Speaker 1: if that's your goal to be an influencer on social media, 116 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,690 Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus was about people one-on-one. It wasn't about, 117 00:06:34,790 --> 00:06:36,690 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, he talked to the crowds and stuff 118 00:06:36,730 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: like that, but I'm not dissing That, I'm just like you, 119 00:06:40,620 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: I'm being, I think there's some caution to that. 120 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: I think we're always being formed by something, right? And 121 00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: so my book is Spiritual Formation. And I became really 122 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: interested in that during my time in seminary is how 123 00:06:55,170 --> 00:06:58,570 Speaker 2: we're being formed and what is forming us. And are 124 00:06:58,610 --> 00:07:02,430 Speaker 2: we being more formed into Christlikeness? Yes, no, maybe so. 125 00:07:02,790 --> 00:07:06,510 Speaker 2: And so the reality is we can say good, bad 126 00:07:06,529 --> 00:07:10,870 Speaker 2: things neutral things about social media, we are spending time there. 127 00:07:11,390 --> 00:07:14,030 Speaker 2: So because we're spending time there, it is forming us. 128 00:07:14,590 --> 00:07:19,740 Speaker 2: And so it is wise to use discernment. And it 129 00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: is wise to use self-awareness and reflection and humility as 130 00:07:25,220 --> 00:07:28,700 Speaker 2: we engage with it. Because we need to remember that 131 00:07:28,820 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: these algorithms are playing into something. So let's be thinking 132 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:36,540 Speaker 2: about what that is and what that looks like and 133 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:39,260 Speaker 2: how that's forming us and our practices. 134 00:07:40,170 --> 00:07:45,630 Speaker 1: Okay, Monica, that is so good because if we're spending 135 00:07:45,670 --> 00:07:49,380 Speaker 1: time there, it is forming us. And to your point, 136 00:07:49,580 --> 00:07:54,940 Speaker 1: the algorithms, they're not random. They are pointing us in 137 00:07:54,980 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: a direction. So we are actually being controlled, whether we 138 00:07:58,380 --> 00:08:01,780 Speaker 1: know it or not, by the powers that be. 139 00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: And it's learning you. Yes. It's learning you. So it's 140 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,820 Speaker 2: learning your preferences, your positions. And so something that I 141 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,460 Speaker 2: talk about in the book is giving us practices that 142 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,100 Speaker 2: for spiritual disciplines. And maybe you've heard of spiritual disciplines. 143 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: Maybe your listeners haven't. You're probably participating in them. You 144 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: maybe just haven't heard of them called spiritual disciplines. So 145 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,850 Speaker 2: we're engaging with them and seeing them on social media, 146 00:08:28,230 --> 00:08:31,030 Speaker 2: whether we want to or not. Because, right, the algorithm 147 00:08:31,070 --> 00:08:34,630 Speaker 2: is learning you and it is showing you what it 148 00:08:34,710 --> 00:08:37,910 Speaker 2: thinks you will like because it wants you to stay 149 00:08:37,950 --> 00:08:41,940 Speaker 2: there and engage with it. And so these spiritual disciplines 150 00:08:42,140 --> 00:08:45,820 Speaker 2: kind of talking about, okay, well, how does that look 151 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,699 Speaker 2: in this day and age with this formation of social 152 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,190 Speaker 2: media and bringing that into it? 153 00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: Here's what I think is so interesting is that you're 154 00:08:54,220 --> 00:08:56,380 Speaker 1: bringing out the point that we're being formed by something 155 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: and a lot of us social media. But your premise 156 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:04,380 Speaker 1: is that We should be formed by Jesus, right? And 157 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: the way that we do that is through these spiritual disciplines, 158 00:09:07,780 --> 00:09:09,300 Speaker 1: which you're going to talk to us a little bit about. 159 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:13,650 Speaker 1: Even that phrase, if somebody's not familiar with that, disciplines 160 00:09:13,730 --> 00:09:16,690 Speaker 1: kind of can sound like, oh, that doesn't sound very fun. 161 00:09:16,970 --> 00:09:19,910 Speaker 1: But actually, you're going to show us how this is 162 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: the very means that we experience more of God. And 163 00:09:25,179 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: this is something that I've been talking about with a 164 00:09:27,179 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: couple of my friends, actually, and just the desire for more, 165 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: like more of God, more knowledge of God, more intimacy 166 00:09:36,490 --> 00:09:39,610 Speaker 1: with God, more communion with God, you know, all of that. 167 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:41,890 Speaker 1: And so we're going to take a quick break. And 168 00:09:42,130 --> 00:09:45,830 Speaker 1: if this is resonating at all with you, my listening friends, 169 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:48,610 Speaker 1: that you want more of God, when we come back, 170 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: Monica is going to share how that can be a 171 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: reality for all of us. Okay, so Monica, we are 172 00:09:58,900 --> 00:10:01,939 Speaker 1: talking about experiencing God more, and you've just talked to 173 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: us about how we're always being formed by something, social 174 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,459 Speaker 1: media in particular, but how these spiritual disciplines can help 175 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,580 Speaker 1: form us more into the image of Christ and give 176 00:10:11,620 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: us this deeper intimacy with Jesus. So talk to us 177 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,620 Speaker 1: a little bit about what you've found. 178 00:10:17,530 --> 00:10:20,050 Speaker 2: So spiritual disciplines, again, if you're not familiar with them, 179 00:10:20,270 --> 00:10:25,370 Speaker 2: another phrase you might hear are rhythms or practices. And again, 180 00:10:25,390 --> 00:10:28,500 Speaker 2: you're probably participating in these things even if you haven't 181 00:10:28,530 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: heard them called disciplines. So they're prayer, fasting, making intentional 182 00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 2: time for rest. It's being in community. I even include 183 00:10:37,740 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: things like learning how to read your Bible well. I 184 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,179 Speaker 2: include that as a discipline. And the reason that we're 185 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:50,939 Speaker 2: participating or wanting to do these things is because this 186 00:10:51,020 --> 00:10:56,089 Speaker 2: is an opportunity for us to be transformed. And I 187 00:10:56,170 --> 00:10:58,510 Speaker 2: think a lot of times people will say things, I 188 00:10:58,550 --> 00:11:00,710 Speaker 2: come to you saying this, like this was me, like 189 00:11:00,850 --> 00:11:03,770 Speaker 2: I did this. I remember my first class in seminary 190 00:11:03,809 --> 00:11:06,860 Speaker 2: was hermeneutics. And I thought, oh, this is perfect. I'm 191 00:11:07,020 --> 00:11:10,220 Speaker 2: so good at this because it's really headnology. I'm good 192 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,260 Speaker 2: at this part. Explain what hermeneutics is to somebody who 193 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:17,500 Speaker 2: doesn't know what that is. So hermeneutics is simply meaning interpretation. 194 00:11:17,550 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: So you're interpreting the Bible. It's a big word to 195 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 2: describe a big and wide practice of what does the 196 00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: Bible say, essentially. And so I was in this class 197 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,939 Speaker 2: and during hermeneutics, a lot of times what you'll do 198 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,610 Speaker 2: is you'll parcel out a book of the Bible really, 199 00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:40,550 Speaker 2: really tightly going through it word by word. And so 200 00:11:40,730 --> 00:11:42,729 Speaker 2: I was in my hermeneutics class doing this thing and 201 00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:44,620 Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I'm really good at I'm so good. 202 00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:48,260 Speaker 2: Like I am a head person, right? Head knowledge. And 203 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,580 Speaker 2: my class right after that was spiritual formation. And I 204 00:11:51,620 --> 00:11:53,699 Speaker 2: got the syllabus for that class. And I thought, now 205 00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 2: this isn't quite for me. This is very feelings. It's 206 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,500 Speaker 2: very much like, how does this feel? Pick a practice 207 00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:04,860 Speaker 2: and then monitor how it makes you feel. And I thought, oh, 208 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,979 Speaker 2: that's so silly. I was like, I don't need to 209 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: do that. But I did because I want a good grade. 210 00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:14,510 Speaker 2: And again, I realize how this sounds in hindsight, but 211 00:12:14,630 --> 00:12:16,950 Speaker 2: I'm just telling you the reality of the situation. But 212 00:12:16,990 --> 00:12:18,690 Speaker 2: it was through that class and it was through those 213 00:12:18,970 --> 00:12:24,219 Speaker 2: practices that I felt as though, one, God handed me 214 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: this large piece of humble pie. Like, Monica, just remember 215 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:35,090 Speaker 2: that actually you don't know everything. And two... you are 216 00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:38,890 Speaker 2: a fully embodied human being. You are not a head 217 00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:41,670 Speaker 2: person and a heart, like there's not head people and 218 00:12:41,730 --> 00:12:46,410 Speaker 2: heart people. All people are fully embodied. And so what 219 00:12:46,450 --> 00:12:49,270 Speaker 2: the disciplines offer to us, and again, those are things 220 00:12:49,309 --> 00:12:53,069 Speaker 2: like prayer and fasting and lamenting and living in community 221 00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:56,069 Speaker 2: and learning to read our Bibles well, what that offers 222 00:12:56,170 --> 00:12:59,740 Speaker 2: us is an opportunity to bring our whole selves together. 223 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 2: and our whole selves then in turn love the Lord 224 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,790 Speaker 2: our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. 225 00:13:06,250 --> 00:13:08,370 Speaker 2: And the reason we want to do that is so 226 00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:12,130 Speaker 2: that we can take that full embodiment and then turn 227 00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:15,750 Speaker 2: that back out into the world and represent him well, 228 00:13:16,309 --> 00:13:19,450 Speaker 2: back out into the world that he so loves. And 229 00:13:19,510 --> 00:13:24,340 Speaker 2: so that's the importance of the disciplines and really its 230 00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:25,940 Speaker 2: intentionality behind them. 231 00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:29,059 Speaker 1: Oh, that is so interesting. And I love how you 232 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,219 Speaker 1: communicated that. Nobody is just a head person and nobody 233 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:34,780 Speaker 1: is just a heart person. 234 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,220 Speaker 2: We are all both. 235 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,359 Speaker 1: Obviously, we might feel like we lean toward one or 236 00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:43,979 Speaker 1: the other, but we're both. We are fully embodied people. 237 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: That's really an interesting idea. I love the way you 238 00:13:46,990 --> 00:13:50,189 Speaker 1: communicated that. Okay, I'm gonna ask you this. The one 239 00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:55,359 Speaker 1: that was least familiar to you and or the one 240 00:13:55,380 --> 00:13:56,860 Speaker 1: that was hardest for you? 241 00:13:57,540 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 2: Okay, I have a couple layers of answers for this question. 242 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: The one that I like best for me is prayer. 243 00:14:04,140 --> 00:14:07,750 Speaker 2: I feel like prayer is so transformative for me. And 244 00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:09,910 Speaker 2: so what I also wanted to offer in this is 245 00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:12,470 Speaker 2: a lot of practicality. And that's kind of the feedback 246 00:14:12,490 --> 00:14:15,150 Speaker 2: that I've been getting is this is very practical. And 247 00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:18,270 Speaker 2: that was my goal. My goal was to give people something. 248 00:14:18,610 --> 00:14:21,230 Speaker 2: How do I actually embody this? So you're talking about 249 00:14:21,810 --> 00:14:24,090 Speaker 2: becoming more Christ, like how do I embody this? How 250 00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:26,610 Speaker 2: do I practice this? So in my chapter on prayer, 251 00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:28,870 Speaker 2: I give a lot of options for different ways that 252 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:32,670 Speaker 2: you can pray. You don't have to necessarily, can you have, 253 00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:35,830 Speaker 2: you see these like really beautiful prayer spaces online, cool, 254 00:14:35,890 --> 00:14:38,330 Speaker 2: like that's awesome, but that might not be a reality 255 00:14:38,390 --> 00:14:40,580 Speaker 2: for you. So what are really practical ways that you 256 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: can implement the transformative power of prayer in your life? 257 00:14:44,670 --> 00:14:47,750 Speaker 2: So that one is easy slash I like that one. 258 00:14:48,190 --> 00:14:50,130 Speaker 1: Okay, but before you go on, I want to ask you, 259 00:14:50,170 --> 00:14:53,490 Speaker 1: because now you've piqued my interest. So give me just 260 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:57,100 Speaker 1: a couple practical tips about, okay, how can I go 261 00:14:57,130 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: deeper in this practice of prayer? Sure. 262 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: So one that I really love and people seem to 263 00:15:02,780 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: be resonating with is this idea of a wandering prayer, 264 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: I call it. This does, now, if you have littles 265 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,930 Speaker 2: at home, this might not be for you. It might not. 266 00:15:12,130 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: Maybe it is. But it's this idea to give yourself 267 00:15:14,890 --> 00:15:17,100 Speaker 2: some time. I think a lot of times we will 268 00:15:17,460 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: sit down in prayer and we've got our list of requests. 269 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,239 Speaker 2: That's great. That's fine. But give yourself time to let 270 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:29,270 Speaker 2: your mind wander. And you might actually start out wandering 271 00:15:29,330 --> 00:15:32,890 Speaker 2: through your checklists, your things you need to do today, 272 00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:35,330 Speaker 2: what you need to get at the grocery store, when 273 00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:36,970 Speaker 2: do I need to pick up the kids. But I 274 00:15:37,010 --> 00:15:40,630 Speaker 2: encourage you to sit with it and just keep in 275 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:44,790 Speaker 2: that space. And ask God to bring something to your heart, 276 00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:48,910 Speaker 2: to your mind. Maybe it's prayer for a person that 277 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:51,110 Speaker 2: you haven't thought of for a while, or maybe something, 278 00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:54,470 Speaker 2: a situation comes up and you're like, oh, that actually 279 00:15:54,530 --> 00:15:58,290 Speaker 2: wasn't healed. Or maybe I need to forgive again. And 280 00:15:59,210 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: so again, this takes some time and some space and 281 00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: some humility to work in. But that is an opportunity, 282 00:16:05,740 --> 00:16:08,540 Speaker 2: I think, for a way that we can enter into 283 00:16:08,740 --> 00:16:12,140 Speaker 2: partnership and prayer with God that brings us to deeper 284 00:16:12,210 --> 00:16:15,310 Speaker 2: intimacy with him and deeper relationship. I've got a couple 285 00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:19,610 Speaker 2: other ideas in there too. Just don't forget that those 286 00:16:19,710 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: quick one-liner prayers, those are just as wonderful and heard 287 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,660 Speaker 2: by God as your long, maybe you like to write 288 00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:31,460 Speaker 2: your prayers out. Like God's not like, okay, this prayer 289 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,110 Speaker 2: is more important because she wrote it versus she said 290 00:16:34,130 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: it in the pickup line. Like He's not weighing out 291 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,460 Speaker 2: the importance of your prayers. So again, just offering some 292 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,750 Speaker 2: practicality in how you're practicing and embodying your faith. So 293 00:16:45,770 --> 00:16:50,050 Speaker 2: the discipline that I dislike the most, and I'm open 294 00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:52,790 Speaker 2: about this in the book, honest about my experience with it, 295 00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:55,510 Speaker 2: but you can't write a book on spiritual disciplines and 296 00:16:55,530 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: then God not ask you to do all of them. 297 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,150 Speaker 2: And so is fasting. I don't like it. And so 298 00:17:01,170 --> 00:17:03,130 Speaker 2: I've offered a couple of ways that you can practice 299 00:17:03,170 --> 00:17:06,260 Speaker 2: fasting because perhaps a dietary fast is not what's right 300 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,740 Speaker 2: for you. And in fact, that might be unhealthy or 301 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: whatever the case. There are other things to fast from. 302 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,220 Speaker 2: You've probably heard people fasting from social media or different 303 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: things like that. But I did do a dietary fast 304 00:17:18,980 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: at one point, which was really hard and awful. But great, 305 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:24,980 Speaker 2: but great. 306 00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: I love that you're real. I love that. 307 00:17:27,859 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 2: It was really good, but I don't want to do 308 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,619 Speaker 2: it again. And then I also did, like we had 309 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: talked about before, I was, before I was posting about 310 00:17:36,220 --> 00:17:38,940 Speaker 2: my faith online, I was an influencer. And with that 311 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 2: came a lot of consumption and particularly consumption of clothing. 312 00:17:44,140 --> 00:17:47,020 Speaker 2: And so I felt as though I was in a 313 00:17:47,060 --> 00:17:49,629 Speaker 2: season where it was like, whoa, Monica, you need to 314 00:17:49,710 --> 00:17:52,930 Speaker 2: slow down and like take a break. So I did 315 00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:54,669 Speaker 2: a no buy. And I talk about this in the 316 00:17:54,690 --> 00:17:57,430 Speaker 2: book too. Like I didn't buy anything for three months. 317 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,420 Speaker 2: And maybe to some people that sounds like not a 318 00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 2: big deal. But when you're in that world and essentially 319 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:06,660 Speaker 2: creating a career out of that, to not buy anything, 320 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:10,949 Speaker 2: anything for three months felt like a big ask at 321 00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:11,369 Speaker 2: the time. 322 00:18:11,950 --> 00:18:15,409 Speaker 1: Right. So you were giving up something that was really 323 00:18:15,490 --> 00:18:17,970 Speaker 1: important to you and not just important, but it was 324 00:18:18,650 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: kind of quote unquote necessary for your profession, just like 325 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,030 Speaker 1: food is like necessary for our lives. So you were 326 00:18:27,050 --> 00:18:28,980 Speaker 1: giving up something in a similar vein. 327 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,189 Speaker 2: It felt important, but fasting allows us an opportunity to 328 00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:36,510 Speaker 2: create space for God to work. Our lives are so full, 329 00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:42,490 Speaker 2: so full, particularly in where we live. So fasting is 330 00:18:42,530 --> 00:18:47,030 Speaker 2: an opportunity for us to create intentional space for God 331 00:18:47,310 --> 00:18:49,470 Speaker 2: to show up and to work. It's not easy. 332 00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:51,850 Speaker 1: So when you did that fasting where it was a 333 00:18:51,890 --> 00:18:55,210 Speaker 1: no-buy fast, because you could just do that and then 334 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: really not grow closer to the Lord. How did that 335 00:18:58,380 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: help you then go a little bit deeper in your 336 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,180 Speaker 1: relationship with Jesus? 337 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,219 Speaker 2: Well, you need to start off, and this is the 338 00:19:05,260 --> 00:19:09,590 Speaker 2: same for any spiritual practice or discipline. And I actually 339 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,510 Speaker 2: start the book off this way too. I started off 340 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:13,470 Speaker 2: with a reminder that you are made in the image 341 00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:17,350 Speaker 2: of God. And this provides us the foundation to say, 342 00:19:18,020 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: I am engaging in these practices from a place that 343 00:19:22,420 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 2: I am already loved and taken care of versus I 344 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: am doing these practices to earn or gain favor or love. 345 00:19:31,340 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: And so starting off with a posture of humility and understanding, again, 346 00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 2: yes for fasting, but this is for any practices because 347 00:19:40,180 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: we all know people who are really great at doing 348 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,980 Speaker 2: all of these things, but still lack being transformed into 349 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,990 Speaker 2: more Christ-likeness. And so, again, we're starting from that place. 350 00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: I'm already loved, provided for, cared for. And so working 351 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,500 Speaker 2: into that. And I share this story in the book. 352 00:19:57,619 --> 00:20:00,899 Speaker 2: It sounds really simple and silly and goofy. But the 353 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: reality is, is that I had a vacation in the 354 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,310 Speaker 2: middle of my no-buy. And again, I'm just trying to 355 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:11,970 Speaker 2: offer reality and practicality. And so I had this vacation planned. 356 00:20:12,290 --> 00:20:14,110 Speaker 2: And what do we do before we go on vacation? 357 00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:17,010 Speaker 1: You buy stuff, right? I need a new bathing suit. 358 00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:18,170 Speaker 1: I need a new whatever. 359 00:20:18,430 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: Yes, you buy stuff. And I really wanted, so my 360 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,340 Speaker 2: hair is, it's not like naturally curly, but it's naturally wavy. 361 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: We're going on a tropical vacation. I wanted sea salt 362 00:20:29,060 --> 00:20:31,740 Speaker 2: spray for my hair. I wanted it. And it was like, 363 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 2: I had to have this internal argument with myself, right? 364 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,140 Speaker 2: About like, okay, but Monica, you are in the middle 365 00:20:38,220 --> 00:20:43,530 Speaker 2: of this fast. So is your integrity worth this $ 10 366 00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:46,190 Speaker 2: or not? Like I committed to this when I said 367 00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:48,990 Speaker 2: I was going to do it. And it was just 368 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,030 Speaker 2: this internal struggle. And it sounds so silly. like repeating 369 00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:54,859 Speaker 2: it back, but I had determined to myself, I said, nope, Monica, 370 00:20:54,950 --> 00:20:57,660 Speaker 2: you know what? Let's be realistic. This is sea salt spray. 371 00:20:57,980 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 2: Don't be silly. Don't break your integrity over this like 372 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: $ 10 item. That's so silly. And so God in his 373 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 2: perfect timing, right? A friend had actually texted and said, hey, 374 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,180 Speaker 2: this company accidentally sent me an extra sea salt spray. 375 00:21:11,650 --> 00:21:14,100 Speaker 2: Would you like to have it for vacation? And I 376 00:21:14,140 --> 00:21:16,419 Speaker 2: just had to sit there at my kitchen. I was 377 00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:18,780 Speaker 2: like at my kitchen counter and I was like looking 378 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: at this text and thinking the sense of humor that 379 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: God has, like it is not lost on him. He 380 00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:28,380 Speaker 2: cares about your things that we call small and little. 381 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: Who cares about my sea salt spray on vacation? Who 382 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,239 Speaker 2: cares about that? God does because I wanted it. And 383 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,950 Speaker 2: it's so silly and ridiculous. And I'm completely aware of that. 384 00:21:39,310 --> 00:21:42,169 Speaker 2: God still cared enough to provide for it. So, and 385 00:21:42,190 --> 00:21:44,389 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that it works out that way every time. 386 00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:48,410 Speaker 2: I'm not. But I also wonder if we give God 387 00:21:48,430 --> 00:21:51,389 Speaker 2: a chance, if we create enough space and give him 388 00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:53,970 Speaker 2: a chance to show up, what that might look like. 389 00:21:54,910 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: Oh, that is mic drop. I think you are onto 390 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,260 Speaker 1: something there because I think we jump in and do 391 00:22:03,340 --> 00:22:06,260 Speaker 1: for God what he would have done for us. 392 00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: Well, and especially because we can do it so instantly. 393 00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 2: I could have ordered that sea salt spray and had 394 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,659 Speaker 2: it to my house within three hours. Wow. 395 00:22:14,770 --> 00:22:18,130 Speaker 1: Like you said, that's a silly example, but it translates 396 00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:21,790 Speaker 1: into bigger issues where really it comes down to, Monica, 397 00:22:21,850 --> 00:22:25,930 Speaker 1: an issue of control. That fast for you was basically saying, Lord, 398 00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:28,330 Speaker 1: I'm going to submit this area of my life to 399 00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: you that is important. An area maybe that I haven't 400 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,620 Speaker 1: really fully thought about submitting to you before. And so 401 00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:39,189 Speaker 1: that's laying down control, right? So, but all of us 402 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:41,830 Speaker 1: have areas where we're like, we want to control our kids. 403 00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:43,629 Speaker 1: We want to control our profession. We want to control, 404 00:22:43,670 --> 00:22:46,949 Speaker 1: I mean, all of us, right? That's really interesting how 405 00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:49,710 Speaker 1: you didn't jump in and then the Lord provided. 406 00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 2: And I want to just reiterate how badly I wanted 407 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,740 Speaker 2: to jump in because I know that I can just 408 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,070 Speaker 2: fix it. But it's that discomfort and sitting with the 409 00:23:00,130 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: discomfort without shame, but instead with curiosity and trust that 410 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: it's going to be okay. So I even start off 411 00:23:10,540 --> 00:23:13,580 Speaker 2: the chapter with how much I dislike discomfort. I don't 412 00:23:13,660 --> 00:23:17,140 Speaker 2: like it. And I think that's totally normal, right? Like 413 00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 2: God's not surprised that we as people might not like discomfort. 414 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,780 Speaker 2: He's not surprised that you're a human being. he's working 415 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:25,180 Speaker 2: with that. 416 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: He knows what he's working with. Right. 417 00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 2: Like he's like, yeah, I made you. I'm aware. Thank 418 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,649 Speaker 2: you though. So I think that's an important reminder in 419 00:23:33,670 --> 00:23:35,350 Speaker 2: that too. And again, what I hope to offer in 420 00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:38,609 Speaker 2: this book is God is not surprised by your humanity 421 00:23:39,130 --> 00:23:41,689 Speaker 2: and we don't have to abandon who we are as 422 00:23:41,810 --> 00:23:45,949 Speaker 2: humans in order for connection, relationship, and intimacy with him. 423 00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:50,090 Speaker 1: That's really good. That's really good because a lot of us, 424 00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:53,409 Speaker 1: I think, separate like, oh, this is my spiritual life. 425 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: But then this is my real life and they're not integrated. 426 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,900 Speaker 1: And what you're saying is like, no, no, no, just integrate. 427 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: It's all one. 428 00:24:01,140 --> 00:24:05,139 Speaker 1: Integrate your relationship with God into like who you are. 429 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,780 Speaker 2: Are the person and the season that you're in, right? 430 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: Because those are going to shift and change too. And remember, 431 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,419 Speaker 2: like back at the beginning of our conversation, like we 432 00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:15,490 Speaker 2: are a fully integrated being. And so our seasons of 433 00:24:15,550 --> 00:24:18,090 Speaker 2: life are going to ebb and flow. So the disciplines 434 00:24:18,670 --> 00:24:22,210 Speaker 2: that we participate in are going to shift and change. 435 00:24:22,250 --> 00:24:24,190 Speaker 2: And you can't do all of them at once. But 436 00:24:24,550 --> 00:24:26,730 Speaker 2: in each section or at the end of each chapter, 437 00:24:26,770 --> 00:24:30,250 Speaker 2: I have an endurance section because this is about endurance. 438 00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:32,530 Speaker 2: This is not about a quick fix, which I do 439 00:24:32,590 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: think that social media has played into that idea, right? 440 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 2: That we can be transformed, just light switch. Does that 441 00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:41,899 Speaker 2: sometimes happen in an area of our life? Sure, it can. 442 00:24:42,220 --> 00:24:44,859 Speaker 2: But more often than not, right? God is not working 443 00:24:44,980 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: on our same timeline. It's endurance here. Long obedience in 444 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: the same direction. 445 00:24:50,510 --> 00:24:53,270 Speaker 1: Long obedience in the same direction, just doing the same 446 00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:57,430 Speaker 1: things over and over and over and over and over. 447 00:24:57,730 --> 00:25:00,389 Speaker 1: Just like what you said, social media, you see the 448 00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:03,570 Speaker 1: same kind of things over and over and then pretty 449 00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:07,500 Speaker 1: soon that's influenced you, right? But at the same way, 450 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,410 Speaker 1: When you pray or you read God's word or you 451 00:25:11,450 --> 00:25:14,889 Speaker 1: worship or you fast or whatever, when you do this 452 00:25:15,090 --> 00:25:18,430 Speaker 1: over and over and over, that eventually changes you. So 453 00:25:18,690 --> 00:25:21,190 Speaker 1: I love that. Okay, as we're wrapping up here, I 454 00:25:21,869 --> 00:25:24,010 Speaker 1: do want to ask you a little bit more about 455 00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:27,850 Speaker 1: why you included, I think this is fascinating, wrestling well 456 00:25:27,890 --> 00:25:31,050 Speaker 1: with God as one of the spiritual disciplines. And I mean, 457 00:25:31,090 --> 00:25:33,510 Speaker 1: I think I would agree with you, but I've never 458 00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:36,510 Speaker 1: heard anybody put that in the spiritual disciplines. 459 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,619 Speaker 2: So to be fair, wrestling with God is under the 460 00:25:40,660 --> 00:25:44,830 Speaker 2: chapter of mystery. It is under the chapter of existing 461 00:25:44,869 --> 00:25:46,710 Speaker 2: in the wonderment of God. And I think part of 462 00:25:46,770 --> 00:25:50,210 Speaker 2: that comes from our ability to wrestle and wrestle well. 463 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:54,090 Speaker 2: So for example, an issue, a topic that I had 464 00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:58,350 Speaker 2: struggled with for years was women in ministry. And it 465 00:25:58,390 --> 00:26:01,930 Speaker 2: took years to wrestle with the topic. I consulted a 466 00:26:02,090 --> 00:26:05,550 Speaker 2: lot of professors, articles, different people that I had trusted, 467 00:26:05,650 --> 00:26:08,669 Speaker 2: different resources and all of that. And though I have 468 00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 2: landed on a conclusion there, what I want to point 469 00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: people to is one, wrestling with God is not disobedience. 470 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,020 Speaker 2: I was told I was disobedient numerous times because it 471 00:26:18,060 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: was something I was wrestling with. So wrestling is not disobedience. 472 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,060 Speaker 2: It's actually a very beautiful spiritual practice. God is not concerned. 473 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: Like he's not shaking in his boots over your questions, right? 474 00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:34,290 Speaker 1: What you're basically describing here is trying to ask God 475 00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:38,210 Speaker 1: your questions and then get God's answer. Like, God, I 476 00:26:38,210 --> 00:26:41,969 Speaker 1: don't understand this, so help me understand this according to 477 00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:44,590 Speaker 1: your word and your ways. That's basically what you're saying, right? 478 00:26:45,130 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: Asking your questions that you maybe don't understand. 479 00:26:48,020 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 2: Yes. However, I do want to point people to the 480 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,379 Speaker 2: mystery and awe of God and allowing that to also 481 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,950 Speaker 2: be a discipline and a practice. To say, I don't 482 00:27:01,010 --> 00:27:05,150 Speaker 2: know yet, but God does, and that's enough. And my 483 00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:08,659 Speaker 2: job right now is, again, to reflect Christlikeness back out 484 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 2: into the world that he so loves as best I can, 485 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,620 Speaker 2: even though I don't know all the answers to this. 486 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,260 Speaker 2: I also think in social media, there is this tendency 487 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 2: and propensity to want to know every single answer to 488 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: every single question. And we want to know it really quickly, 489 00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:25,610 Speaker 2: but that is just not the case. That is not 490 00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:28,209 Speaker 2: how good theology works, and it's not how God operates. 491 00:27:28,660 --> 00:27:29,940 Speaker 1: Can it? Maybe. Sure. 492 00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 2: Sometimes. But a lot of times, no. So wrestle well, 493 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 2: but hold that mystery and awe and wonderment of God 494 00:27:38,380 --> 00:27:39,500 Speaker 2: right alongside of it. 495 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,380 Speaker 1: Oh, you know, Monica, that's really good advice. Because you're right. 496 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,369 Speaker 1: There's going to be things because God is God and 497 00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:48,750 Speaker 1: we are not. And there are going to be things 498 00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:52,590 Speaker 1: we just don't know. And part of submitting our life 499 00:27:52,650 --> 00:27:55,410 Speaker 1: to Christ is to say, I don't know. I may 500 00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:59,490 Speaker 1: never know this, but... that's okay because you're God and 501 00:27:59,510 --> 00:28:04,930 Speaker 1: I'm not. And so I love that you have included this. 502 00:28:05,530 --> 00:28:08,300 Speaker 1: So our questions are great. They can draw us closer 503 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: to God. But at the same token, we're never going 504 00:28:10,859 --> 00:28:13,820 Speaker 1: to have all of our questions answered this side of heaven. 505 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: And that's just reality. Okay, Monica, tell us a little 506 00:28:17,420 --> 00:28:21,170 Speaker 1: bit about how we can find your book and connect 507 00:28:21,210 --> 00:28:21,510 Speaker 1: with you. 508 00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:27,060 Speaker 2: MonicaRitchie.com. There are links. All over my website, I've got 509 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: resources there for you as well. Tons of stuff, monicaritchie.com. 510 00:28:30,980 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 2: I am most active on Instagram and a little bit 511 00:28:33,980 --> 00:28:37,750 Speaker 2: on threads, a little bit on Substack, but mostly on Instagram. 512 00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:41,630 Speaker 2: And my handle there is itsmonicaritchie. Great. 513 00:28:41,850 --> 00:28:45,270 Speaker 1: We will put all of that information in the show notes. Well, Monica, 514 00:28:45,310 --> 00:28:48,450 Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and may 515 00:28:48,510 --> 00:28:53,050 Speaker 1: God just bless your ministry and bless you as you 516 00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:56,580 Speaker 1: continue to get to know him more and more and more. 517 00:28:56,930 --> 00:28:58,340 Speaker 2: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 518 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: Well, I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And as a reminder, 519 00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: let's connect more on Instagram. I'm at Donna A. Jones, Facebook, 520 00:29:06,780 --> 00:29:11,180 Speaker 1: Donna Jones Speaker and Author, or my website, donnajones.org. And 521 00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:14,140 Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. so you don't 522 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,790 Speaker 1: miss a single episode. And as always, my friend, I 523 00:29:18,170 --> 00:29:21,170 Speaker 1: can't wait to see you next time for That's Just 524 00:29:21,410 --> 00:29:21,930 Speaker 1: What I Needed.