1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to me Praying Christian Women Podcast. I 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 2: am Alana here with Jamie. How are you doing. 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: I'm doing great? How about you? 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 2: I'm good. I am very excited that we get to 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: have this coffee break question. So for coffee breaks, we 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 2: take questions that listeners sending in of things that you 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: have had on your mind, and then Jamie and I 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: just get to show up and turn the cameras and 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: Mike's on and chat about it. So what are we 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: talking about today? 12 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: Today? 13 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 3: We are talking about a question that could have been 14 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 3: written by me because I've been thinking about this a 15 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 3: lot lately because of our True Crime podcast. I've been 16 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 3: listening to some kind of scandal stories about churches and 17 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 3: corruption within big name churches, some of which are producing 18 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 3: worship music. So the question is is it wrong to 19 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: sing songs written by people who have been proven to 20 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 3: live lives outside of God's will? What about songs written 21 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 3: by people in cults or music groups that are in 22 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 3: it only for the money and fame and not to 23 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 3: honor Christ, Which it's important, It's important for sure. 24 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: So yeah, I love that we get to cover this. 25 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:19,279 Speaker 2: I have been leading music at our church for three 26 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: USh years now, and so this definitely comes up there. 27 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 2: Anybody who is responsible for selecting the songs that get 28 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 2: sung at a church knows that people have strong opinions 29 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: about certain types of music, and so this one is 30 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: close to home for me too. It's also close to 31 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: home for me as an author and as somebody who 32 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: is concerned about the extent that cancel culture can silence somebody. 33 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: So I love that we get to discuss this before 34 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: we do that, though do we have a verse. 35 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: Of the day we do first? They came to mind 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 3: for me almost immediately. Not that I'm taking a side, 37 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 3: because I do want to talk about it. But Philippians one, 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: verses fifteen through eighteen in the NIV. So it's it 39 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: is true that this is Paul speaking. It is true 40 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 3: that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but 41 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 3: others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, 42 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 3: knowing that I am put here for the defense of 43 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: the Gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 3: not sincerely supposing that they can stir up trouble for 45 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: me while I am in chains. 46 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: But what does it matter? 47 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 3: The important thing is that in every way whether from 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 3: false motives or true Christ is preached. And because of this, 49 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 3: I rejoice And I kind of chose this kind of 50 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 3: I would say, as one piece of a puzzle, not 51 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 3: to say, because you could read this and think, oh, 52 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: she's trying to say that. Yes, absolutely, no matter what 53 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: if it's worship music, you sing it, and I don't 54 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 3: want that to be what it is because this is 55 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 3: a different situation. This isn't talking about scandal. This is 56 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 3: talking about the motives of preaching a true gospel, and 57 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 3: so I think that's important to keep in mind. Though, 58 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 3: is just the idea that we need to no matter 59 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: what we're doing or singing, or preaching or teaching, we 60 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 3: need to test it all against Scripture number one first 61 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 3: and foremost as a foundation. 62 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 63 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: Well, you and I have not pre chatted about this topic, 64 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: so I'm curious, are you going to fall kind of 65 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: centrists like you and I both do on a lot 66 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: of things, or do you actually have somewhat opinionated stance 67 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: on this. 68 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 3: I am fairly centrist because I'm still exploring it for myself, 69 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 3: but I will say that I have a very emotional 70 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: response because I don't know. I guess we're going to 71 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 3: go into a little bit of some of the tip 72 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: of the iceberg of some of these scandals, but I'm 73 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: just going to say it. They're two worship centers whose 74 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: theology I don't agree with one hundred percent in terms 75 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: of their church or organizational theology, but whose worship lyrics 76 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: for the most part, I find no problems with, but 77 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: who have had scandal within the churches. And so I 78 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 3: will confess I did not really get into the theology 79 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 3: of where these particular worship songs were coming from before 80 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: the scandals happened, and I started to dig into it 81 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 3: and think, wow, like, some of their theology I really 82 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 3: don't agree with, even though the songs don't have things 83 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: that I disagree with necessarily. So the two that I'm 84 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: referring to that are my top favorite playlists of worship 85 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 3: songs are Bethel and Hillsong, and both of those organizations 86 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 3: have had some serious scandals, whether adjacent to them or 87 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 3: within the churches. 88 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I've. 89 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: Been thinking and mulling this over a lot lately of 90 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 3: can I listen to this and seeing these songs in 91 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: clear conscience? And how do I decide whether I can 92 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 3: or not? 93 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: And then you know. 94 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: Beyond that, there've been some other individuals. I'm just gonna 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: I'll go ahead and name some names. I've got Chris Rice, 96 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: who grew up. 97 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: In my hometown. 98 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: I actually kind of sort of was friend of a 99 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 3: friend with his brother. I kind of went to see 100 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 3: him live and he was accused. There were no legal proceedings, 101 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 3: but there was. He was accused by three young men 102 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: of inappropriate behavior. I won't go into it, but it 103 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: was substantial and he was, like I said, no legal 104 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 3: proceedings were done, but there was an internal investigation done 105 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: by the church that he was employed with that came 106 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 3: to the conclusion that these these were legitimate accusations. And 107 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 3: he's disappeared. He's I don't know where he is or 108 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 3: what he's doing. But it was heartbreaking because he seemed 109 00:05:53,960 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 3: like a wonderful person. His theology was very biblical, and 110 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 3: his music just moved me deeply. 111 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: I loved his music. And so I'm struggling. 112 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 3: And then Michael Tate was another one recently who came 113 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: out originally DC Talk the Newsboys with Again, I don't 114 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: believe there's any legal things that have taken place, but 115 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: he has confessed to substance abuse and secretly being you know, 116 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 3: using alcohol and cocaine, and then had a couple of 117 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: young men come forward and accuse him of inappropriate behavior, 118 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 3: which I don't know where that stands. So we don't 119 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: want to accuse anyone legally, but definitely scandal. 120 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: We just don't know the extent of it. Right. 121 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and just to be fair, let's go ahead 122 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: and say alleged in all capital letters for this kind 123 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: of thing. In this instance, I am actually very strongly opinionated. 124 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: If you had to guess what side I'm on, do 125 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: you already. 126 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: Know don't touch the music? 127 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: What do you mean by that that you. 128 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 3: Don't want you won't touch the music of of these scandals? 129 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: Oh? 130 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 1: Really? Oh really? 131 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 2: Now I am so much the opposite. 132 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: Okay, So the way you said that, I'm like, Okay, 133 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 3: if you're opinionated, you're saying no way the songs. 134 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: No, Because if I wanted to be really cheeky, I 135 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: would say that some of my favorite hymn lyrics were 136 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: written by an adultterer and a murderer named David. I 137 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: could say that one of America's favorite, most beloved hymns 138 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: was written by a slave Trader, one of the most 139 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: well known hymns of Christendom was written by someone who 140 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: was very, very vocally anti Semitic. So no matter how 141 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: far back you go in history, all the way back 142 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 2: to David and Moses wrote a couple songs you know 143 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: you you cannot get away from. Anything that is written 144 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: is written by sinful people. And the closest I have 145 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: ever come to a compelling argument, because even though I'm 146 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: very opinionated, I do want to always know the other 147 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: side of the argument well enough to express it very coherently. 148 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: The one that I think deserves time and attention is 149 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: for today, Like if we sing a Martin Luther song, 150 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: Martin Luther doesn't benefit from that, He's been dead for 151 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: hundreds of years. And on the other hand, if we 152 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: sing a Hillsong song at my church, I report that 153 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: to the CCLI, and I don't know exactly how it works, 154 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: but somehow Hillsong gets a portion of some type of 155 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 2: royalties from that, and so there can be an argument 156 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: there of why do I want my money going to 157 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: a church that doesn't believe the same things. 158 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: That I do. 159 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: And the way I see it is, if you were 160 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: to take a hard line on that none of us. 161 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: It's like he who is without sin throw the first stone. 162 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: Have you shopped at Walmart in the past month? Have 163 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: you bought anything from Amazon? Right? Or even if I 164 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: go and give a five dollar bill to the girl 165 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: Scouts who come to my door selling cookies, okay, does 166 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: that mean that I need to go and check her 167 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: school record and make sure that she's never gotten a tarty? 168 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 3: Like? 169 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: How far back am I willing to go? And then 170 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons why additionally I'm really 171 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: staunchly opinionated about this is as an author, I don't 172 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: want one person to say, oh, well, and you know, 173 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 2: I don't have huge skeletons in my closet that I'm 174 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: terrified are going to get out. But I have seen authors. 175 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: For example, there was a Christian author who somebody found 176 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: a good Reads accounts that shared a name that author, 177 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 2: and they didn't even know if it was the same author, 178 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 2: and there were spicy books in their good Reads I 179 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: want to read these books lists, and they tried to 180 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: start a public boycott. Now we can't ever read any 181 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: book by this author, and it was never even proven 182 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: that it was the same person. They just had the 183 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: same name, and even if it was, I don't read 184 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: only Christian books, and some of the Christian books I've 185 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: read I find very questionable in the underlying message behind them. 186 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: So I just don't think. I think that the second 187 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: you start on that witch hunt, you can never get 188 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: off to the point where we can't read Psalm twenty 189 00:10:54,840 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 2: three anymore because David committed adultery, we can't read Moses's 190 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: Song and Exodus because he was a murderer, and then 191 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: there's nothing left. 192 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: That is such a good point. 193 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought up all of those things, 194 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 3: because that really does give us a picture of consistency. 195 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: Are you going If you're going to be consistent in 196 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 3: your boycott, then you're going to have to just it's 197 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 3: never going to end, and you're never going to be 198 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 3: able to listen to anyone. 199 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: And then the songs that you are banning are banned 200 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: because there's been a public sin. But what you're doing 201 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: then is you're saying that Michael Tate's cocaine addiction is 202 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: inherently worse than so and So's racism. That's never come 203 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: out in the public eye, but between God and that person, 204 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: it's really there and really obvious. So it also to 205 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: me it's putting a hierarchy. It's these kinds of sins 206 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: because they're visible, are bad enough that we need to 207 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: censor this person's But everybody's got sins. 208 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, you know, if we're going to 209 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 3: take it from that, because it is, it's a personal choice, 210 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: and it boils down to like anything, some people don't 211 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 3: shop at Amazon, some people don't buy Levi's, some people 212 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 3: don't get Johnson and Johnson down. They're all kinds of boycotts. 213 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 3: Some people make choices, and that's totally up to you. 214 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: So if you are listener, feel convicted in your spirit 215 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 3: about listening to a certain thing, because when you listen 216 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: to that on Apple Music or you use the worship 217 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: lyrics and you pay whatever royalties, Obviously that's a personal choice. 218 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 3: But going from there to kind of the next level. 219 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 3: The thing that disturbed me as I started kind of 220 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 3: going down the rabbit trail of Okay, who were these 221 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 3: scandals about how are they associated with or adjacent to 222 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 3: these ministries? And then I started looking into the theology 223 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: of the ministries and realized that I probably should scrutinize 224 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: a little more closely the lyrics of the worship songs 225 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 3: I'm singing, and so far I haven't found any discrepancies. 226 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: And so some of my very favorite songs are very 227 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: theologically sound, even if the church putting them out is 228 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 3: not wanting induce theology I adhere to. But I think 229 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: that is an important thing I think we need to 230 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 3: look at. Okay, So if it is a personal choice, 231 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 3: if the sin or scandal within a church or within 232 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 3: a group that's putting out music or an artist is 233 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 3: not grounds for stopping listening to them, what are the 234 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 3: considerations we need to consider. 235 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 236 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, so is it biblical? 237 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 3: I think that's really important, and that's something I have 238 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 3: I haven't always really thought about, and so I think 239 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 3: I definitely do want to apply that more to kind 240 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 3: of listen and think, Okay, is this biblical? 241 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: Is this speaking truth? 242 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, You've got to take each song at its own value. 243 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: With that, I could even say that you can take 244 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: an artist at value. If you love three of this 245 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: person's songs and one of them is so far off 246 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: and they're teaching about the Lord, I could see that 247 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: being a reason for just saying, hey, we're not going 248 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: to do this I love that you brought up the 249 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: difference between what's done out of personal conviction and what's 250 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: done in a corporate setting when it's personal conviction, I 251 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: think that's absolutely different. Every so often, it doesn't happen 252 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: anymore because I'm the ones choosing the songs. But before then, 253 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: every so often I would just stand and not sing 254 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: the words to a song if it had lyrics in 255 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: it that I didn't think were biblical. And sometimes those 256 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: are the old traditional hymns that you don't even you know, 257 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: we've heard the word so many times that we don't 258 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: even think about, Like call me petty, but I do 259 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 2: not sing the line but little Lord Jesus, no crying 260 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: he makes if away and a manger is being sung 261 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: because I think it's silly. I don't think it gets 262 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 2: me brownie points with God by refusing to sing it. 263 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: And I absolutely don't judge the person next to me 264 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: who's singing it because they love the song because it 265 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: reminds him of their grandma, you know. So I think 266 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: the things to keep in mind are what is done 267 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: corporately is different than what we choose privately. And my 268 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: vehemence is very much from the corporate side. The moment 269 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: I start to censor something, I am left with zero 270 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: songs to choose from. Yeah, right now, if you're talking 271 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: about it from your own personal playlist, I do think 272 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: there's a big difference there. However, I also just want 273 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: to encourage people, if you are the type to censor 274 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: a lot, to just be gentle that you're not extending 275 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 2: judgment on people who don't have those same standards. Or 276 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: I could even see somebody who's like, I am so 277 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: sad that this beloved song is now tainted, and I 278 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: hate that God's going to be mad at me if 279 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: I listen to this song. If the song is good 280 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: and pure and leads you to worship God, God's not 281 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: mad at you for singing that song. Right, So there's 282 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: that too. You don't have to throw it out, but 283 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: if you feel convicted to throw it out, do it 284 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: for the glory of God. But also don't pass judgment 285 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: on the other people, and also just have a tiny 286 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: bit of humility, because once you start down that road, 287 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: you just kind of have to acknowledge that it could 288 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: turn into something never ending. Right, And I also don't 289 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: think it's smart or wise and definitely not godly or 290 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: gracious to be like, ooh oh, I just heard this 291 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: song that I love. It leads me to feel closer 292 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 2: to Christ. I better go and dig into the author's 293 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: personal life now to make sure they don't have any 294 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: skeletons that would make this song taboo for me. Right, 295 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: don't go looking for a reason to do that. It's 296 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: kind of like meet sacrifice to idols. Paul says. If 297 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: you learn something that would lead you to say I 298 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: should no longer worship to this song, then go ahead 299 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: and do it, but don't pass judgment on the person 300 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: who still loves that song. Additionally, don't go out looking 301 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 2: for reasons why that song might not be okay, right. 302 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 3: I do think there is a culture within the Christian 303 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 3: culture of having a critical nature and wanting to call 304 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 3: out just a critical spirit of wanting to call out, Oh, 305 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 3: they're bad because of this, this and this, and if 306 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: you're a real Christian, you're not going to listen to 307 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 3: this because this is what this does. I think it's 308 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 3: it's definitely there's a I don't know, there's just a 309 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 3: certain type of rut we can get ourselves into of 310 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 3: that kind of sure, and I think it's important not 311 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: to On the other hand, I do think if we 312 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: are talking about public worship, Let's say a huge scandal 313 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 3: comes out. If you're in a public setting, I could 314 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 3: see someone choosing to remove certain artists or certain groups 315 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: from a playlist in a corporate setting to avoid distraction, 316 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 3: because the idea is, oh, the fact that there is 317 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: a scandal might take away from the worship of God 318 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 3: because this person might see this and start thinking. 319 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: Oh, there's a scandal about this. Should I be singing it? 320 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: Should I not? 321 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 3: And then you're kind of distracting from worship. I could 322 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 3: see that being a choice that a worship leader makes, 323 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 3: or someone you know in a position of choosing. But again, 324 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 3: that's not always going to be the case. But I 325 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 3: could see that being a reason for refraining, at least 326 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 3: for a time. 327 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: If it's in the pubble, Yeah. 328 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: A lot, I could see that. I don't think it's 329 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 2: a choice that I specifically would choose to make. But 330 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: if it becomes something that's extremely divisive, sometimes there is 331 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: a sense of, you know what, it's a meat market issue. 332 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: If this is going to cause division in the body 333 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: of Christ, is this a hill that I want to 334 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 2: split my church up over? No, you know, definitely not. 335 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: It makes me. 336 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: Sad that there's such division. It makes me sad that 337 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: there's even just division about you know, hymns versus newer songs, 338 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: you know, all of the There are. 339 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: Very few issues within churches that cause as much division 340 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 3: as styles of worship. 341 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: Not even scandal, you know, but just styles. 342 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, should we do hymns? Should we do contemporary? What 343 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 3: is you know, what's real worship music? 344 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, And I love the verse that you 345 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: chose as our verse of the day. It's if Christ 346 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: is preached, then I will rejoice. If people are being 347 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: led to worship God, then I'm going to rejoice in that. 348 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: And yeah, it is hard in our community. It's hard 349 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: because there's not a variety of churches to attend. So 350 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 2: it's not like we can say, Okay, we're going to 351 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: be the church that is deliberately trying to appeal to 352 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: people who. 353 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: Like this style. 354 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 2: Some people hate that that's even considered, But I don't 355 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 2: think that that's terrible. I think that worship is personal 356 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: and unique, and I don't think it is wrong to 357 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: prefer a church whose music style speaks to you more 358 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: so than another style. I don't think that's wrong. I 359 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: think it's wrong when there's divisiveness about it, But I 360 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: don't think it's wrong to have a community where in 361 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: that community there's a church that sings all hymns because 362 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: that's what the people like, and there's a church that 363 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 2: sings all contemporary because that's what the people like. In 364 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: our community, we're not big enough to have those kind 365 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: of choices, right, and so we always do have a mix. 366 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: And thankfully I've not been on the receiving end of 367 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: a lot of why do you do this song? Why 368 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: do you do that song? But I know that there 369 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: are murmurs about that kind of stuff, and I think, yeah, 370 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 2: it is sad that this activity that should draw us 371 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: so close together can be so divisive. Like there is 372 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 2: nothing that physiologically unites people more than singing together. Like 373 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: there is physiological stuff that goes on in your body 374 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: and in your minds when you are singing the same 375 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: song with a group of people, and it is a 376 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: sense of community that can't be replicated in any other 377 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: venue or any other setting. And so it's sad that 378 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 2: it is so divisive, but it's awesome. Make sense if 379 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: this is something that brings unity of course, the enemy's 380 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: going to try to make it one of the big 381 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: divisive things. 382 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's no surprise then that when you do find 383 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 3: so many of these artists and of these you know, 384 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 3: churches that are putting out this incredible worship music, that 385 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: they would come under attack, that they would be targets, 386 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 3: that they would be there would be a lot of 387 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 3: activity in those trips from the opposition. 388 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 2: So have you ever personally removed a song you've loved 389 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: from your playlist because of a scandal or something that's 390 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: come out about the artist. 391 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 3: I will say that for a time I was not 392 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 3: there was Chris Rice was one of my very favorite artists, 393 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 3: and I found it difficult to listen to his music 394 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 3: knowing what seems to be what has seemed to have occurred, 395 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 3: Like I said, been no charges, no convictions, but for 396 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 3: personal reasons, not because I thought there was anything magical 397 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 3: about it. 398 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: Or spiritually bad. But I found it hard to listen. 399 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 3: And recently I've gotten back to listening to some of 400 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 3: them because he has very biblical lyrics, and I kind 401 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 3: of came to the conclusion that it wasn't inherently evil 402 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 3: to listen to them. 403 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: And you know, but I do wrestle with it sometimes, 404 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: but that. 405 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 3: Was the one. That was the one because it was 406 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 3: so personal. He was the one person who wrote and 407 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 3: performed in saying them like this church organization, it was right. 408 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 3: I found it difficult, but yeah, but that wasn't I 409 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: have started to bring some of those songs back in 410 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 3: because he wrote a lot of things that other people 411 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: saying that you might not even know. He wrote that 412 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 3: are worship songs as well. But how about you? 413 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have not in a case like that. I 414 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: think that if I were to have given up on 415 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 2: it, it would be almost out of sadness. It would be 416 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 2: like this song makes me too sad to think about. 417 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: That's kind of what it was like. 418 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 3: I just personally was like, it's like how Lord, Like, 419 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: how did this happen? But your example of David, it's 420 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 3: a perfect example. It's the exact same thing. He did 421 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 3: a lot of things, and yet he was a man 422 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 3: after God's own heart, And to be honest with In 423 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 3: the case of Chris, like a lot of his music 424 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 3: kind of has a double meaning. There's a lot of 425 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 3: verbiage about struggle and you know, all of the songs, 426 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 3: how can I be so prone to wander and like, 427 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 3: you know, so I do feel like looking at it 428 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 3: through the lens of David. Yeah, repentant. No, whether or 429 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 3: not the end of it jewels we've mentioned are repentant, 430 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 3: I don't know, because most of them, I don't know. 431 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: I don't know. It's between them and God, you know, 432 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 3: and the Yeah, but I think that that picture of 433 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: David being a psalmist, and obviously we have thrown that 434 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 3: out of the Bible and God exactly. 435 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: To include it in scripture is very telling. 436 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for me it's a little easier to 437 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: having released a lot of books into the world, and 438 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: I recognize that the moment that book is out of 439 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: my hands, it's not me anymore, Like it doesn't belong 440 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 2: to me. And I think of it exactly the same 441 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 2: as music and so a song by so and so 442 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: the artist. Once it's out and once it's released, I 443 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,959 Speaker 2: don't associate it as part of them anymore, right, Like 444 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: it's it's its own separate entity. Just like I try 445 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: to be really careful not to judge parents by the 446 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 2: behavior of their children, right, I don't want to judge 447 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 2: a song by the behavior of the author who wrote it. 448 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 2: And so that's you know, that's just another layer of it. 449 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 2: When I worked at the Girls Home in Vermont, there 450 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: was kind of a scandal there, and what happened was 451 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: I had to go back. My initial reaction was, Okay, 452 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 2: now that I realized that this person has fallen into sin, 453 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 2: and that this person perhaps had been involved in sin 454 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 2: the whole time I knew them. Now I got to 455 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 2: look back and strip away everything they ever said about God, 456 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: and I realized that that wasn't true. I realized that 457 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 2: what they said about the Lord, the Bible studies that 458 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: we studied together, all of that was true. The prayers 459 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: they prayed for me, the prayers I prayed with them, 460 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: that was all still true, and that was all still 461 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: valid because I knew myself that you can be a 462 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: sinner and love God. You can be a sinner and 463 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: minister to people. You can be a sinner and speak 464 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 2: truth about God. You can be a sinner and still 465 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: be used by the Holy Spirit in very dramatic ways. 466 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 2: So that was my first case of learning to separate 467 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 2: the fruit from the vine, you know, and they were repentant. 468 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: I always feel bad that often the way these types 469 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: of public scandals go is the sin becomes public and 470 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 2: the repentance happened kind of simultaneously, and that's when the 471 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 2: person becomes the most villainized, right when it should be 472 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: the opposite. They should be re embraced when they're repentant. 473 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that that means that they're immediately 474 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: reinstated or anything like that, but I would much rather, 475 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: if I had to have my choice, I would rather 476 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 2: be under the spiritual tutelage of somebody who fell into 477 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: sin publicly confessed and repented, and somebody who was living 478 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: in secrets. 479 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 3: Yes exactly. I think people are skeptical sometimes when someone 480 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 3: is repentant only after they're caught, you know, like they're skeptical, like, well, okay, 481 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 3: well of course you're saying you're repentant. So I think 482 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 3: there is a degree skepticism. So I think there definitely. 483 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 3: What I found in listening to some of the scandal 484 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 3: stuff that came adjacent to Bethel, not within Bethle necessarily, 485 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: was that there tended to be a culture of exposure 486 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 3: of scandal, public release of a statement of some sort 487 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: saying yes this happened, and yes this person has repented, 488 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 3: an immediate reinstitution to teaching status, which is one end 489 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 3: of the spectrum which is wrong. And then you've got 490 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,719 Speaker 3: the other end of the spectrum of just this. Like 491 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: you said, where does it end if you condemn a 492 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 3: person indefinitely for and don't forgive them when they have 493 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 3: repented of something. You know, it's casting the first stone. 494 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 3: It's pointing out the speck in their eye. When we 495 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: all have logs in our eyes, whether it's publicly or privately, 496 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 3: we all have logs in our eyes in thoughts, in words, 497 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 3: and actions, or at least one of those three. 498 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I think a good takeaway is judge 499 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: the song by its lyrics. I think that there's never 500 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: going to be anything sinful by tossing out a song, 501 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: either personally or corporately, because it doesn't align with scriptural truth. 502 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 2: Everything that falls after that probably falls under that meat 503 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: market question. It falls under the guideline of what whatever 504 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: you do, do it for the glory of God. But 505 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: I also really strongly encourage people who are too quick 506 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: to throw things out to realize you're never going to 507 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: find a song written by a human being. So my 508 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: thought is, I don't even want to bother trying to 509 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 2: be the arbitrator of how big of a sin warrants 510 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: their song getting thrown out. 511 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think that's very well said. 512 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: Well, thank you everyone for tuning in, and if you 513 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: have questions that you want us to cover on a 514 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 2: future coffee break, you can submit those to us at 515 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 2: praying chrishwoman dot com sash questions and with that you 516 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: winna closest in prayer. 517 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: Sure. 518 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 3: God, we just thank you for the gift of worship. 519 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 3: We also thank you that you, through history, through the Bible, 520 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 3: and you know, all the way up till now, you 521 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 3: work through imperfect vessels to reveal words of truth and 522 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 3: inspiration and even worship songs, and we just thank you 523 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 3: for that. We thank you that you don't disqualify us 524 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 3: because we're not perfect. And we just pray for your 525 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 3: protection over the Body of Christ against terrible sin. We 526 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 3: pray that where there is sin, that there would be exposure, 527 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 3: and that no sin would be in secret, that justice 528 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: would prevail, that sin would be exposed, and that your 529 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 3: church would be made pure. And that also you would 530 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 3: give all of us grace as we just journey on 531 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 3: the road of faith, that we would not cast stones, 532 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: that we would not point out specs in our brother's eye, 533 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: but that we would look at ourselves first and with 534 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 3: most scrutiny, and that we would not be afraid to 535 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: call out sin, but always speak the truth in love, 536 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 3: and always with arms of open forgiveness, and always with 537 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 3: a humility and a spirit of grace and love and truth. 538 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: Amen. 539 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: Do you love true crime but feel like it's a 540 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 3: guilty pleasure because of the swearing and explicit content. 541 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: If so, I can't wait to. 542 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 3: Tell you the good news. Alana and I just launched 543 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 3: our brand new podcast, Christian True Crime Junkies, a squeaky 544 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 3: clean crime show for believers. 545 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: Each week we. 546 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 3: Bring you unforgettable testimonies of survival, stories of justice, and 547 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: tales of redemption. And yes, sometimes plain old murder, always clean, 548 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 3: always from a Christian perspective. Listen to Christian True Crime 549 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 3: Junkies today wherever you listen to podcasts, and don't forget 550 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 3: to follow us. New episodes come out every week and 551 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 3: you don't want to miss out. We'd like to take 552 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: just a quick second to thank the team at Life 553 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 3: Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. If 554 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: you go to lifeaudio dot com, you will find dozens 555 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 3: of other faith centered podcasts. In their netw work, they've 556 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 3: got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and so much more. 557 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 3: That's life audio dot com.