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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr.

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Speaker 1: James Spencer and I'm joined today by a new author,

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Speaker 1: David Gilland. David and I have been friends for a

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Speaker 1: lot of years, but he's also a former pastor and

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Speaker 1: he's worked with suicide prevention for a very long time

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Speaker 1: and then just recently got his biblical counseling certification. And

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Speaker 1: he's written a new book called Holding Hope, a biblical

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Speaker 1: guide to suicide prevention for church leaders. And we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking through that today. This is a really

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Speaker 1: important topic. I've had Jeremy Stahlmacher on who does a

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Speaker 1: lot of this work with vets who come back from

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Speaker 1: war and they're dealing with sort of the post-traumatic stress

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Speaker 1: of that. And so this is just something that I

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Speaker 1: think plagues an awful lot of people. And so, David,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the program, man. And thanks very much for

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Speaker 1: writing this book.

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Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having me. What a cool way to

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Speaker 2: start my Friday. It's just... Like talking to an old friend,

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Speaker 2: it seems like our journey from over the years has

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Speaker 2: really brought us on quite a journey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I agree. No, this is cool. I was

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Speaker 1: glad to hear you writing a book. I mean, I'd

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Speaker 1: kept up a little bit with what you were doing,

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Speaker 1: obviously with the pastoring. And then I'm not as familiar

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Speaker 1: with all the work that you've done in suicide prevention.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm just interested, you know, talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit through what led you to this project? What, what

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Speaker 1: professional experiences did you have? What pastoral experiences did you have? And,

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Speaker 1: and then what would, what would prompt you to say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: people really need to see this in book form.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean, I wrote holding hope, um, because

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Speaker 2: I saw, I had kind of the, like you said,

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Speaker 2: I had two parts of my life, right? I had the, the,

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Speaker 2: the secular and the, the Christian and they're not supposed

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Speaker 2: to be separated, but I really needed to bring these

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Speaker 2: things together. Um, And so I was suicide prevention program

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Speaker 2: manager for the military, for the National Guard, for the

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Speaker 2: Army Reserves for nearly a decade. And in the midst

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Speaker 2: of that, I somehow became a pastor. I have to

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Speaker 2: trust God on that one. But all those years of

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Speaker 2: pastoral ministry and biblical counseling, and suicide prevention all came together. Uh,

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Speaker 2: when I was at my church, I got called, they

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Speaker 2: know me as the suicide prevention guy who's now their pastor.

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Speaker 2: And one of the first things that happened was one

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Speaker 2: of my congregants said, Hey, is my brother in hell? Uh,

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Speaker 2: cause he killed himself. And as I'm talking to pastors

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Speaker 2: and I'm asking them, you know, who do I, who

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Speaker 2: do I go to when somebody's, um, when they need

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Speaker 2: counseling for something. Right. So it was kind of a

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Speaker 2: combination of all these different elements creating this perfect storm

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Speaker 2: because the church leaders were telling me, well, I keep

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Speaker 2: a stack of business cards for a Christian counselor on

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Speaker 2: my desk. And I saw a lot of farming in

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Speaker 2: them out. And when I started asking them, well, what

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Speaker 2: kind of suicide prevention training did you get in seminary?

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Speaker 2: And they're like, yeah, we, I don't, I don't remember

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Speaker 2: hearing that word in seminary.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And so I just wanted to help church leaders kind

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Speaker 2: of bridge that gap between wanting to help and knowing

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Speaker 2: what to do, right? I'm not trying to turn pastors

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Speaker 2: into mental health professionals. I wrote the book to help

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Speaker 2: equip them to recognize warning signs, feel more confident in

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Speaker 2: having those difficult conversations, being able to respond compassionately and

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Speaker 2: connect people with the help they need.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think for people who don't, no

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Speaker 1: seminary education right seminary education is um a very you

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Speaker 1: can think of it like a specialized discipline and so

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Speaker 1: you get um fairly you get some widening in like

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Speaker 1: a master of divinity or something like that where you

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Speaker 1: might learn some preaching you might learn some ministry skills

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Speaker 1: and you usually have a counseling class thrown in there

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Speaker 1: but it's one class And so you compare that to

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Speaker 1: the difference of you working with suicide prevention for over

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Speaker 1: a decade. And most people are never going to get,

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Speaker 1: even in a pastoral counseling class, you're not going to

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Speaker 1: deal with suicide prevention more than like, let's say, a week,

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Speaker 1: maybe two. And so they just don't have that specialized

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Speaker 1: depth that you've developed over time. And so I think

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Speaker 1: this is a great way to bridge between what you

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Speaker 1: had been doing professionally and then what you were thrown

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Speaker 1: into pastorally.

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Speaker 2: Right. And, and, you know, the, just because we don't

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Speaker 2: talk about suicide in the churches doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people who are struggling are already a part

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Speaker 2: of our churches are already a part of our communities. Um,

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Speaker 2: some of them may be sitting in the pews, but

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Speaker 2: some of them may be leading ministries. Uh, I believe

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Speaker 2: I quoted a Barner research study where like 20% of pastors, uh,

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Speaker 2: had suicidal thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Um, So it's something that's real, but also it's a

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Speaker 2: subject that can make us extremely uncomfortable, right? We're afraid

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Speaker 2: to say we might say the wrong thing, and so

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Speaker 2: we say nothing, right? Or we're so uncomfortable with it,

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Speaker 2: we throw out, you know, maybe you should pray more

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Speaker 2: or here's a scripture, you know, for you. And that's

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Speaker 2: not to, you know, to diminish those things. They are important. But,

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Speaker 2: you know, this kind of cultural dig at Christianity with

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Speaker 2: the thoughts and prayers is there for a reason. It's

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Speaker 2: because a lot of times people, when they're in that discomfort,

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Speaker 2: they offer something that will get them out of it quickly. Right.

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Speaker 2: And so what I'm saying is that the church doesn't

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Speaker 2: have to know everything to begin helping. Right. We just

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Speaker 2: need to be willing to acknowledge that suffering is real

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Speaker 2: and it exists. It's in our churches. Let's ask honest

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Speaker 2: questions and walk with people rather than kind of leaving

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Speaker 2: them in their pain. We can't care well for a

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Speaker 2: struggle that we refuse to acknowledge. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I want to hop into some of the theological stuff,

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Speaker 1: but I thought I'd ask this question first. When you

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Speaker 1: think about suicide in the church, there's obviously the gap

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Speaker 1: between you know, comfort and discomfort. There's a gap between

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Speaker 1: understanding and even being able to spot the warning signs and,

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Speaker 1: you know, having some sensitivity to, oh, I think this

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Speaker 1: person may actually have a bigger problem than just the

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Speaker 1: thoughts and prayer line is really going to address. Like

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Speaker 1: there's a skill gap there. But do you also see

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Speaker 1: a sort of a social stigma? I mean, it just

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Speaker 1: strikes me that the question that gentleman asked you when

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Speaker 1: you came in, you know, my brother committed suicide, is

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Speaker 1: he in hell? this has a really deep sort of

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Speaker 1: sin-oriented stigma to it. And you sort of fold that into,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, a bigger trend like in the United States,

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Speaker 1: you know, we should be self-sufficient. We should be able

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Speaker 1: to care for ourselves. We should be able to handle

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Speaker 1: our own problems. Like how much of a stigma do

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Speaker 1: you think holds the church back from really addressing this

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Speaker 1: issue and recognizing it as not just a not just

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Speaker 1: a present problem, but something it should deal with?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think the church is uniquely qualified to

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Speaker 2: help people in this space. We're supposed to be hope dealers, right?

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Speaker 2: Or what's the old pastor saying? The church is a

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Speaker 2: hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints, right? We

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Speaker 2: are the place where people come with their pain to

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Speaker 2: get hope, to to deal with their brokenness through Christ.

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Speaker 2: And so I think one of the cultural things that

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Speaker 2: you're talking about is... So in suicide prevention in the

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Speaker 2: secular world, in the military, it's not just about prevention

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Speaker 2: and postvention and intervention. It's about helping to reduce stigma

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Speaker 2: and taboo about even talking about the subject. And in

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Speaker 2: our churches, we especially.

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Speaker 2: I have no comparison about international churches, but it seems

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Speaker 2: like in American churches that cultural model that we have

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Speaker 2: of self-sufficiency, of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, all

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Speaker 2: of that has seeped into the church. And so we

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time talking about victory in Jesus,

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Speaker 2: and I am more than an overcomer, and that we

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Speaker 2: should have joy, joy, joy in our hearts, right? And

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Speaker 2: that's not a lot of... that's not reality for a

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Speaker 2: lot of people in our pews sometimes. And I think

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Speaker 2: they get, they may feel like they can't express those

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Speaker 2: thoughts or even confess their sins in church, because that

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Speaker 2: might be seen as weakness where we've kind of built

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Speaker 2: this culture of, of strength in Christ, which we do have.

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Speaker 2: And let's not forget that, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: the Psalms are about lament. You know, I think the

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Speaker 2: Bible is, is remarkably honest about suffering. I was just

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Speaker 2: reading Psalm 88 the other day, which is so heavy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this guy is in deep despair, right? He's despondent.

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Speaker 2: And there's no neat wrap-up at the end of it.

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Speaker 2: But I know that you'll make everything better. No, this

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Speaker 2: is in the pit. He's lost his friends. Everything is bad. And,

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Speaker 2: and so I think that we, we neglect some of

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Speaker 2: that stuff because we're afraid maybe that that's off putting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think we, we, should be allowed to have

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Speaker 2: more honest conversations about suffering and suicide. And yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: is suicide sin? I believe the Bible make a case

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Speaker 2: that it is, right? The Bible places great value on

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Speaker 2: human life, like from Genesis 1 on. And I also think, though,

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Speaker 2: that we need to be careful, right, not to turn

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Speaker 2: this kind of complex theological question into into a simplistic

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Speaker 2: verdict about a suffering person's eternal destiny, which was the

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Speaker 2: case with this. And different denominations have historically treated this

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Speaker 2: subject differently. So I'm just saying that our responsibility as

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Speaker 2: the common everyday pastor on a Tuesday afternoon or Friday morning,

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Speaker 2: when that crisis comes, our responsibility is to protect life,

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Speaker 2: offer compassionate care and help that other person, you know,

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Speaker 2: receive support.

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Speaker 1: And it's worth saying, I mean, when you, even when

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Speaker 1: we think about the value that the Bible places on

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Speaker 1: human life and thinking about suicide as sin, anybody you're

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Speaker 1: talking about or anybody you're talking to regarding suicidal thoughts

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Speaker 1: has yet to commit the sin.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And so you're always dealing with it preemptively when you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with it with a person, which is sort of

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Speaker 1: a great position to be in. It's unlike many other

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Speaker 1: sins that we might deal with, right? Where someone who

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Speaker 1: has committed adultery or someone who is addicted to pornography

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Speaker 1: or someone who has committed some sort of a crime

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Speaker 1: or what have you, where the deed is already done

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Speaker 1: and now you're dealing with fallout. So I would think

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Speaker 1: a lot of times when you're looking, you're identifying these signs,

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with something now proactively that doesn't necessarily, and

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Speaker 1: you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily lend itself to just the blunt observation. Hey, suicide's sin,

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't do it. You sort of have to work

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Speaker 1: around it. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I was I use the illustration in

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Speaker 2: the book and I've used this a million times. I

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Speaker 2: was a pastor during COVID, which is, you know, is

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Speaker 2: like PTSD. Just talking about thinking about it. But, you know,

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Speaker 2: and so you're in a church and any pastor that

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Speaker 2: was a pastor during COVID or really anybody during that

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Speaker 2: time can relate to. There are very strong opinions on

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Speaker 2: whether you should mask or not mask, whether you should

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Speaker 2: have in-person attendance or not. whether you should vaccinate or

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Speaker 2: not vaccinate. Statistics say this. Statistics say that. I know this, right?

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Speaker 2: This was my lived experience in those two or three

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Speaker 2: years of 2020 to 2022. I did more funerals in

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Speaker 2: those three years than in the other, you know, five,

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Speaker 2: six years of my pastorate combined. There was not a

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Speaker 2: single funeral that I did where a statistic would have

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Speaker 2: brought comfort to a family member that was grieving, right?

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Speaker 2: I don't care what you believe about vaccines or what

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Speaker 2: you believe about COVID. When that person has lost their

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Speaker 2: loved one and they are suffering, your opinion on it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter. What matters is that we have hope in

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Speaker 2: Christ and God is near to the brokenhearted, right? The

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Speaker 2: Bible speaks to those things. It speaks about human suffering.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't pretend that faithful people never experience anguish or

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Speaker 2: fear or discouragement or despair, right? So I think we

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Speaker 2: can take these spiritual realities seriously while also recognizing that emotional, physical, relational,

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Speaker 2: situational distress is real. And it's not our job to

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Speaker 2: base someone's faith just on what pain they're experiencing, right?

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Speaker 2: Our job is to care for them faithfully. And so

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Speaker 2: I hope I answered your question. I started.

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Speaker 1: No, that's helpful.

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Speaker 2: I started kind of rabbit trail. It's just a danger. No, no.

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Speaker 2: Former pastor.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, I know that helps. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: you've got two chapters and I appreciated the way you

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Speaker 1: align them. Chapter three and chapter four, you have chapter three,

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Speaker 1: suicide in scripture, tragedy and warning. And then you have

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Speaker 1: is suicide a sin, a pastoral and doctrinal response. And

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Speaker 1: part of what I thought when I was reading through

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Speaker 1: those chapters was, I thought to myself, I bet pastors

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Speaker 1: deal a lot more. This would just be my bet.

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Speaker 1: I have no statistics to back this up. But my

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Speaker 1: bet is I bet pastors deal a lot more with

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Speaker 1: people who have lost someone to suicide than they actually

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Speaker 1: deal with people who are thinking about committing suicide.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And part of the reason we frame the question or

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Speaker 1: the answers the way we do is because we're thinking

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Speaker 1: it through from the perspective of a survivor, not through

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Speaker 1: the perspective of someone who's struggling with this. Right.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, one of the dangers we

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Speaker 2: can run into in the. When we look at suicide,

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Speaker 2: there are people who are in that mindset that think

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Speaker 2: what they're doing is the right thing. I'm doing this

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Speaker 2: to remove the problem that I am on my family.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's this almost nobility to to what I'm

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Speaker 2: what that person is considering. And I can tell you

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Speaker 2: from dealing with people in the aftermath of suicide, that

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Speaker 2: is never the way it is perceived, right? I've done,

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Speaker 2: I've trained literally over a thousand soldiers and veterans on

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Speaker 2: suicide prevention. And one of the first things we do

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Speaker 2: in those trainings is we take some space at the

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Speaker 2: very beginning to just talk about what our feelings are

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Speaker 2: about suicide and what our experiences have been with suicide.

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Speaker 2: And every single time, James, there is somebody in those

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Speaker 2: discussions that start crying or emoting in some way because

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Speaker 2: they've never been able to talk about it. But so

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Speaker 2: many of them have a line that they can draw

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Speaker 2: to somebody in their life that's suicided. Whether it's a

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Speaker 2: family member, you know, I had one lieutenant, she just

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Speaker 2: started crying beside me because her husband's suicided. She didn't

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Speaker 2: feel like she could she was allowed to talk about

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Speaker 2: it because it would be seen as a leadership failure

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Speaker 2: or something. But her biggest question was why, you know,

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Speaker 2: I never understood why. And, and in, in the Christian context,

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Speaker 2: we think that, I think there's this underlying implication that if,

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Speaker 2: if you're a real Christian, if you really have enough faith,

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Speaker 2: that's not something that you would do. But that's, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's not, that's not really biblical. You talk about the

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Speaker 2: examples I listed in the book. There are five suicides

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Speaker 2: that I found. But conversely, I also found five men

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Speaker 2: in the Bible who were suicidal, but then did not

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Speaker 2: kill themselves, right? So, you know, you have the famous

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Speaker 2: Judas and Saul, but also Saul's armor bearer and Zimri

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Speaker 2: and Ahithophel, some of these like odd kind of things.

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Speaker 2: But you also have the Jonas, right? Or maybe the

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Speaker 2: most famous Elijah under the broom tree in 1 Kings 19.

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Speaker 2: And Moses wanted to die at one point. Job is

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Speaker 2: clearly a picture of suffering. But these people all turned

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Speaker 2: to God, whereas the other ones didn't even really acknowledge.

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Speaker 2: They just saw no hope whatsoever. And so I think

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Speaker 2: that's really where the needle moves is when people are

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Speaker 2: in that suicidal frame of mind, they don't see any

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Speaker 2: hope for tomorrow being any different from the days before it, right?

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Speaker 2: Nothing is going to change. And that's where more people

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Speaker 2: lean towards suicide than away from it. One of the

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Speaker 2: trainings that I do is we kind of explain how

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Speaker 2: suicide is a big deal, right? It's a very heavy choice.

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Speaker 2: It's a very difficult choice to make. Most people, even

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Speaker 2: those that have survived suicide attempts, will tell you that

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Speaker 2: they didn't really want to die. But life is also

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Speaker 2: really hard right now, right? It's very heavy. It's very difficult.

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Speaker 2: And it's so hard that taking yourself out of life

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Speaker 2: seems like an option and so all what we do

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Speaker 2: what i do in in this training is say that

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Speaker 2: there is a third much safer option and that option

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Speaker 2: is um to stay safe for now right you don't

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Speaker 2: have to know you can't solve somebody's life problems in

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Speaker 2: one conversation all you need to do really in that

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Speaker 2: moment is just take the one next step. What can

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Speaker 2: we do to keep you safe for now while we

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Speaker 2: plug you into some of this other stuff, right? So again,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of wandering here, but that's leading more to

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Speaker 2: the practical.

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Speaker 1: I guess. No, I think that's really helpful. I mean-

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Speaker 1: We were talking before the interview and I mentioned the

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Speaker 1: conversations I'd had with a gentleman named Benjamin Matthew on

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Speaker 1: these ideas of deaths of despair. And he echoed some

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Speaker 1: of the things you're saying. This idea that life just

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Speaker 1: isn't going to get better is really a characteristic of despair.

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Speaker 1: That it doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: where these things go. There's no real realistic way in

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Speaker 1: which my life is going to change for the better.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be this until I die. And that

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Speaker 1: sort of draws death a little closer because you start

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Speaker 1: to frame yourself in these perspectives where you say, if

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Speaker 1: nothing about my life is going to get better and

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Speaker 1: I can't do anything to effectively make my life better

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Speaker 1: until I die, why not just move death forward and

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Speaker 1: save everyone the trouble? And I don't know that maybe

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Speaker 1: you can help with this, but It doesn't feel selfish

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Speaker 1: to me. Like that logic doesn't feel selfish to me.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like I would like to exit this

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Speaker 1: life because life is getting way too hard for me. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, just damn all the people that care about me.

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Speaker 1: It feels more like you described, like they're thinking, wow,

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Speaker 1: I'm such a burden on people. I'd love to unburden

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Speaker 1: the people that I love from just having to deal

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Speaker 1: with me.

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Speaker 2: Right. And that's part of that rationalization process, right? We can't,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the life in us, we are image bearers

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Speaker 2: of God. To end our own lives is really a

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Speaker 2: very unnatural thing for us to do. And so it's

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Speaker 2: like with any other sin in the sense that we

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Speaker 2: have to find a way to justify the way we're

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Speaker 2: feeling or the actions that we were taking. We know that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I know that going to the buffet for

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Speaker 2: the sixth time is wrong, but, you know, I justify

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Speaker 2: that by saying, but I spent $ 30 for this buffet

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Speaker 2: and I need to get, you know, all of it.

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Speaker 2: And I know that's like, you know, a little bit flippant,

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Speaker 2: but it's the same kind of principle, the underlying principle, right?

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Speaker 2: There's a need to rationalize And I think that when

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Speaker 2: we get into that kind of a head space where

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Speaker 2: death seems like the only option, we have to find

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Speaker 2: some way to rationalize that because it's just not natural.

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Speaker 2: And the way we do that then is to say,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be a burden on so-and-so. Another

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Speaker 2: example of somebody in one of my groups, um, when

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Speaker 2: we talked about how a suicide affected you in your life,

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Speaker 2: when they were a child, when they were in third grade, right? Now,

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Speaker 2: this is a 30-year-old soldier. When they were in third grade,

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Speaker 2: one of their elementary school teachers killed themselves. And they

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Speaker 2: were children. They didn't really understand all of that. But

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Speaker 2: he said for his whole life, he and others that

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Speaker 2: he had talked to from that class wondered what did

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Speaker 2: they do wrong to make Mr. So-and-so, suicide, right? To

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Speaker 2: kill themselves. They took that on, even though that, you know,

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Speaker 2: this guy, it probably was completely separate from the classroom,

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Speaker 2: but those actions have incredibly deep ripple effects that we

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Speaker 2: can't even see most of the time, especially if you're

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Speaker 2: in that space, because you are very self-focused, right? It's

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Speaker 2: not that you're selfish. It's that you're focused on yourself

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Speaker 2: so much. All of those biblical accounts are I gave of,

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Speaker 2: of suicides in the Bible, none of those people were

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Speaker 2: looking to God. They were all focused on themselves, right?

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Speaker 2: Whether it was humiliation, loss of power, loss of control, um,

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Speaker 2: loss of, of position, you know, there was some kind

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Speaker 2: of loss, but it, it was something that they weren't saying, um,

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Speaker 2: God can change this, right? God can do something different here. Um, And,

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Speaker 2: you know, in Saul's case, probably the army would have

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Speaker 2: come and killed him anyway. And, you know, they killed

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Speaker 2: all of his kids. They probably would have killed him anyway.

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Speaker 2: But maybe not. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And Saul is such an interesting test case, because when

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Speaker 1: you read his sort of narrative arc throughout the whole book,

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Speaker 1: what you see is him making decisions based on his

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Speaker 1: fear of the people. Right. As opposed to his fear

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Speaker 1: of God. And so this ending for him is consistent

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Speaker 1: with what we see across that presentation of him through

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Speaker 1: his whole life, which is he now has nothing. He recognizes,

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Speaker 1: just like you're saying, that there's no one else around

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Speaker 1: to protect him. The battle is lost. He's done. And

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Speaker 1: so he's not going to allow himself to be taken

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Speaker 1: in by people he doesn't trust, that he is afraid of.

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Speaker 1: He is just going to kill himself. And he sees

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Speaker 1: it as, I have no hope because I have nothing

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Speaker 1: left in a lot of ways. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: that's a consistent read across his whole life. Whereas you

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Speaker 1: look at the way that David operates, and this is

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Speaker 1: the contrast to the whole book, David is the one

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Speaker 1: who fears the Lord. Even when he makes mistakes, he

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Speaker 1: tends to lean back into God. the Lord and look

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Speaker 1: to God for some sort of stability and hope. So

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Speaker 1: even when he's running from Absalom, right, he's refusing to

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Speaker 1: kill Shammai. Like all of these areas, David is still

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Speaker 1: sort of sitting back saying, no, I still have some

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Speaker 1: scruples about me that God is going to bring me

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Speaker 1: through this and that I have faith in him. Then

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Speaker 1: I just need to act consistent with what that is.

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Speaker 1: But there is a real deep orientation there. difference between

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Speaker 1: Saul and David that makes Saul's ending make perfect sense

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Speaker 1: within the narrative.

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Speaker 2: Right. He believes that this is the end. He believes

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Speaker 2: that this is the action he should take, right? There's

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Speaker 2: nowhere where he's really saying, God, what do you want?

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Speaker 2: I became a master trainer in this applied suicide intervention

417
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Speaker 2: skills training model, international credential model. I say it's the

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Speaker 2: Cadillac of suicide prevention. And one of the things they

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Speaker 2: train you on is to listen to turning points when

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Speaker 2: you're having a conversation. Like, look, where is that life

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Speaker 2: spark speaking, right? Where is there something? And one of

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Speaker 2: the examples that they give you is that the person

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Speaker 2: at risk says to you, all I can think, the

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Speaker 2: only thing I can see right now is to die.

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Speaker 2: All I want to do right now is to die, right?

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Speaker 2: And so where do you find a turning point or

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Speaker 2: a spark of life in that? Which is incredibly difficult, right?

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Speaker 2: All I want to do right now is die. So

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Speaker 2: what do you do with that right now? Right. So

430
00:27:30,490 --> 00:27:32,629
Speaker 2: you say, OK, that's that's how you feel right now.

431
00:27:33,390 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: Is it possible that tomorrow you might feel differently or

432
00:27:38,859 --> 00:27:40,820
Speaker 2: a year from now things might be different or 10

433
00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: minutes from now you might, you know, things might be different?

434
00:27:45,210 --> 00:27:48,010
Speaker 2: And so it's really a matter of to get that

435
00:27:48,130 --> 00:27:52,980
Speaker 2: focus off of themselves to think about what if. It's

436
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,660
Speaker 2: more like what if. What if God did something, right?

437
00:27:59,420 --> 00:28:01,500
Speaker 2: And how many times do we see in life where

438
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:07,580
Speaker 2: people struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle? And just

439
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,649
Speaker 2: like at the moment they give up, something good happens, right?

440
00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: Just like at the moment they give up. Right. It

441
00:28:14,540 --> 00:28:17,450
Speaker 2: speaks to our, you know, going back to kind of

442
00:28:17,470 --> 00:28:21,830
Speaker 2: the culture of the church, is we talk a lot

443
00:28:21,910 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 2: about submission and surrender, but we don't do it really well, right?

444
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: Jesus is my Savior, yes. Jesus is my Lord, well,

445
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,850
Speaker 2: you know, when it's convenient for me, right? And that's

446
00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:43,830
Speaker 2: kind of Saul, right? Jesus is my Lord, except I

447
00:28:43,850 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: want to do all these other things, right? And so really,

448
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:50,660
Speaker 2: do we trust God? And I'm not saying that people

449
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: who are in that suicidal space don't trust God enough.

450
00:28:55,220 --> 00:28:57,820
Speaker 2: I'm saying that they need to continue to trust God,

451
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 2: even when they can't see it, even when they don't know.

452
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: Because I don't know, you know, when I listen, when

453
00:29:03,460 --> 00:29:06,110
Speaker 2: I do interventions and people are talking to me and

454
00:29:06,130 --> 00:29:09,490
Speaker 2: they're in that space, brother, I'm telling you, their life

455
00:29:09,570 --> 00:29:14,490
Speaker 2: is hard. Their problems are real. And sometimes life really

456
00:29:14,540 --> 00:29:22,740
Speaker 2: does suck for them. Sometimes it's self-inflicted. Sometimes it's external circumstances.

457
00:29:23,420 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, God is still

458
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,940
Speaker 2: in control. God is still sovereign. We don't know what

459
00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:34,170
Speaker 2: God is doing in that suffering. And sometimes it's in

460
00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:39,230
Speaker 2: that suffering, it's in that place of despair where we

461
00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:43,060
Speaker 2: actually gravitate. closer to Him. We grow closer to Him

462
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: in the valleys than we do in the mountaintops. But

463
00:29:45,940 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: we all want the mountaintops because that's where it's comfortable

464
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,500
Speaker 2: and where it's easy. But it's not necessarily where we grow.

465
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,340
Speaker 2: And God wants us to grow more in Christ's likeness.

466
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,770
Speaker 2: And those are the places when we Our nature is

467
00:29:59,810 --> 00:30:01,510
Speaker 2: to want to turn from him. God has given up

468
00:30:01,610 --> 00:30:05,630
Speaker 2: on me. I quit. Where we really have an opportunity

469
00:30:05,670 --> 00:30:09,050
Speaker 2: to lean into him. So I have this kind of

470
00:30:09,230 --> 00:30:12,950
Speaker 2: a funny story that I tell about when I was

471
00:30:12,990 --> 00:30:16,340
Speaker 2: taking teams to El Salvador, we had to raise money

472
00:30:16,690 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: to go on mission trips. And we were two weeks

473
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,459
Speaker 2: away from going on this mission trip and we were

474
00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: $ 10, 000 short. And the money was due right now. And

475
00:30:27,950 --> 00:30:31,420
Speaker 2: I went to a good friend of mine, James Spencer,

476
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: and I said, James, why would God, you know, let

477
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,540
Speaker 2: me let me fail, bring me all this way. And

478
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: James said something to me that changed my whole perspective.

479
00:30:41,380 --> 00:30:44,300
Speaker 2: He said, what makes you think God wants you to succeed?

480
00:30:47,420 --> 00:30:49,890
Speaker 2: And I had no answer for that. It's just that

481
00:30:49,990 --> 00:30:53,410
Speaker 2: that's the the the way I learned church, I wasn't

482
00:30:53,450 --> 00:30:55,170
Speaker 2: a Christian as a kid, right? I learned church as

483
00:30:55,210 --> 00:30:59,380
Speaker 2: an adult. I learned church culture first. And it had

484
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: never occurred to me that God might want me to fail.

485
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: He might need me to fail so that I grew

486
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,500
Speaker 2: more in Christ's likeness so that I might grow closer

487
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:13,300
Speaker 2: to Him. And so, you know, when somebody's in that space,

488
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:19,350
Speaker 2: that may be exactly where God wants them to be, unfortunately.

489
00:31:19,390 --> 00:31:23,330
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard, but God is in it for

490
00:31:23,470 --> 00:31:28,010
Speaker 2: our best interest, for his best interest. Right. And we

491
00:31:28,050 --> 00:31:30,110
Speaker 2: need to submit to that. We need to surrender to that.

492
00:31:30,190 --> 00:31:32,790
Speaker 2: And we need to say, I don't understand this right now.

493
00:31:34,450 --> 00:31:37,650
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't need to. Maybe I just keep showing up.

494
00:31:37,830 --> 00:31:39,730
Speaker 2: I keep praying, even though the prayers are hitting the

495
00:31:39,770 --> 00:31:41,750
Speaker 2: ceiling and bouncing back, even though I feel like I'm

496
00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:45,430
Speaker 2: talking to myself, whatever, you know, God, I'm just going

497
00:31:45,450 --> 00:31:47,290
Speaker 2: to keep, I'm just going to keep coming. I'm going

498
00:31:47,310 --> 00:31:50,850
Speaker 2: to keep showing up every day. And, and that's what,

499
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:52,860
Speaker 2: And that's where he needs us to be.

500
00:31:54,340 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting. We had a conversation, well, my

501
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: pastor's been doing a sermon series and part of it's

502
00:32:01,220 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: in 1 John. And one of the things you find

503
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,570
Speaker 1: in 1 John is this really interesting, compelling verse of

504
00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:11,910
Speaker 1: 1 John 1.9. You know, if we confess our sins,

505
00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:13,910
Speaker 1: he is faithful and righteous to forgiveness our sins and

506
00:32:13,950 --> 00:32:17,070
Speaker 1: cleanses of all unrighteousness. And when you start to realize,

507
00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:18,690
Speaker 1: and the way I can talk through it with my

508
00:32:18,730 --> 00:32:21,510
Speaker 1: small group is, If you look at the Old Testament law,

509
00:32:22,350 --> 00:32:25,030
Speaker 1: the Old Testament law has these prescriptions of how we're

510
00:32:25,070 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: supposed to act, right? It does present an ideal. I mean,

511
00:32:28,820 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: when you look at the Ten Commandments, there are these

512
00:32:30,980 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: prohibitions that say, hey, don't do these things. This is

513
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: sort of pushing you toward the ideal of society. And

514
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:41,470
Speaker 1: yet there's this entire apparatus in the tabernacle that's given

515
00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:46,590
Speaker 1: to make atonement for sin. And so the law doesn't

516
00:32:46,650 --> 00:32:50,030
Speaker 1: assume that we stop sinning. The law assumes that we're

517
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:54,650
Speaker 1: going to need these moments to really pivot and seek

518
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:58,350
Speaker 1: God and seek forgiveness and seek atonement and make up

519
00:32:58,430 --> 00:33:00,090
Speaker 1: for some of the things that we don't do that

520
00:33:00,130 --> 00:33:05,170
Speaker 1: are ideal. And I think there's an interesting parallel between

521
00:33:05,930 --> 00:33:08,940
Speaker 1: the way you're talking about sort of the suicide stuff

522
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,340
Speaker 1: and that dynamic. Because so often I think we just

523
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,860
Speaker 1: want to think that the Christian life, like once we

524
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:18,580
Speaker 1: receive Christ and the Holy Spirit, we should just be perfect.

525
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,100
Speaker 1: And there are times when we feel a lot of

526
00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:24,950
Speaker 1: guilt about that. But the reality is that there's always

527
00:33:24,990 --> 00:33:30,290
Speaker 1: this mechanism for forgiveness. That's why confession, as in 1

528
00:33:30,290 --> 00:33:33,710
Speaker 1: John 1, 9, can become a marker of a Christian life.

529
00:33:34,610 --> 00:33:37,590
Speaker 1: Because it's assumed that we're going to sin and that

530
00:33:37,610 --> 00:33:40,290
Speaker 1: we need to be confessing that sin and moving forward.

531
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,060
Speaker 1: But that suggests that the Christian life is lived in a,

532
00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:49,410
Speaker 1: not a dark place, right? But a place of brokenness

533
00:33:49,490 --> 00:33:55,110
Speaker 1: and sin and suffering that we walk through. It's not, hey,

534
00:33:55,150 --> 00:33:57,190
Speaker 1: if you just had bigger faith, you wouldn't sin at all.

535
00:33:57,370 --> 00:34:00,290
Speaker 1: It's never talked about in the New Testament, never talked

536
00:34:00,330 --> 00:34:03,910
Speaker 1: about in the Old Testament. It's always your faith is

537
00:34:03,970 --> 00:34:08,830
Speaker 1: demonstrated by your willingness to confess your sin, repent and

538
00:34:08,870 --> 00:34:12,070
Speaker 1: follow God in a different direction. And so these darker

539
00:34:12,170 --> 00:34:16,529
Speaker 1: moments of our lives really are, I think, intended to

540
00:34:16,770 --> 00:34:20,009
Speaker 1: draw us closer to Christ. It's just about the way

541
00:34:20,070 --> 00:34:24,469
Speaker 1: we respond within them. And some of the examples you've suggested,

542
00:34:24,510 --> 00:34:28,410
Speaker 1: like Job, great example of it. But even as you

543
00:34:28,450 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: read that book, you realize Job is struggling with this.

544
00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:34,700
Speaker 1: He's not, it's not a straight line for him. Like,

545
00:34:35,060 --> 00:34:36,980
Speaker 1: I know exactly what's going on. Let me give you

546
00:34:37,020 --> 00:34:40,620
Speaker 1: my three-point sermon on how to deal with suffering, right? Like,

547
00:34:41,110 --> 00:34:42,290
Speaker 1: He's going through it, man.

548
00:34:43,570 --> 00:34:43,930
Speaker 2: Yeah.

549
00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:47,570
Speaker 1: So I think there is a way of dealing with anguish.

550
00:34:47,650 --> 00:34:52,549
Speaker 1: And I think it's just a really crucial point. Let

551
00:34:52,590 --> 00:34:54,109
Speaker 1: me let me ask you this, because I think this

552
00:34:54,140 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: is an interesting I want to get to this. We've

553
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: talked a lot about, you know, sort of the dynamics

554
00:35:00,980 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: of suicide prevention, the dynamics of despair. What are some

555
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,620
Speaker 1: of those early markers, right, that you would say churches

556
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: need to be looking out for? As they're, you know,

557
00:35:14,180 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: looking at it, you're looking at your congregation or you're

558
00:35:16,340 --> 00:35:18,899
Speaker 1: looking at your friends in the congregation and you're saying, wow,

559
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,450
Speaker 1: this person is really struggling. How do you even notice?

560
00:35:23,489 --> 00:35:28,410
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of times. So if somebody comes to you,

561
00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:31,950
Speaker 2: you know, straight up and says, hey, I'm thinking about

562
00:35:31,989 --> 00:35:37,250
Speaker 2: ending my life. How lucky are you that it's that

563
00:35:37,610 --> 00:35:41,230
Speaker 2: is that bold and clear? And that they trust you

564
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:45,090
Speaker 2: that much to bring something so heavy to you. As

565
00:35:45,110 --> 00:35:46,890
Speaker 2: you were talking, I was reminded of one of my

566
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:52,370
Speaker 2: counselees that said he doesn't feel comfortable confessing his sins

567
00:35:52,430 --> 00:35:54,969
Speaker 2: in church, right? I need to talk to you and

568
00:35:54,989 --> 00:35:56,670
Speaker 2: confess my sins because I don't feel like I can

569
00:35:56,710 --> 00:36:00,210
Speaker 2: do that in church, which is exactly where we're supposed

570
00:36:00,250 --> 00:36:05,100
Speaker 2: to be doing that. But some of the things are

571
00:36:05,140 --> 00:36:10,060
Speaker 2: common sense and they're statistically correct. There for a reason.

572
00:36:10,460 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 2: Giving away all your possessions, right? I tell people look

573
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:24,170
Speaker 2: for wide changes or broad swings in emotions or behaviors.

574
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:30,109
Speaker 2: So we think that everybody who's depressed is going to

575
00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:33,299
Speaker 2: be suicidal, which is not true, right? Not everybody that

576
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,060
Speaker 2: suicides is depressed and not everybody that's depressed kills themselves.

577
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:45,820
Speaker 2: But it does statistically, depression is one of the signs.

578
00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: I'm reminded also of a time when there was a

579
00:36:52,690 --> 00:36:58,330
Speaker 2: chaplain in the National Guard who was a very, pretty

580
00:36:58,410 --> 00:37:05,910
Speaker 2: serious guy, not particularly friendly, just somebody who was gruff

581
00:37:06,090 --> 00:37:09,169
Speaker 2: a lot. that came to a prayer breakfast and was

582
00:37:09,230 --> 00:37:13,810
Speaker 2: totally different. I'm happy, you know, shaking everybody's hand, talking

583
00:37:13,830 --> 00:37:17,910
Speaker 2: to everybody, and then went home and killed himself. And

584
00:37:17,950 --> 00:37:22,060
Speaker 2: so sometimes if somebody's in a place where they're not

585
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: doing well, and all of a sudden they flip and

586
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: everything's fine, that may be an indicator that in their mind,

587
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:33,340
Speaker 2: they finally stepped across that line mentally. I'm going to

588
00:37:33,380 --> 00:37:37,250
Speaker 2: do it. I've committed to it. The pressure's off. now. Right. So, so,

589
00:37:37,390 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: so Biden swings in behavior. Um, I think we tend to, um,

590
00:37:43,739 --> 00:37:47,220
Speaker 2: so pastors can sometimes miss what people are saying because

591
00:37:47,260 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: it's couched in spiritual language. I can't wait to get

592
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,739
Speaker 2: to heaven. I can't wait to, you know, meet Jesus. Um,

593
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,470
Speaker 2: but it's also more obvious things like, I, I think

594
00:37:58,510 --> 00:38:00,310
Speaker 2: people would be better off without me. I don't need

595
00:38:00,330 --> 00:38:05,779
Speaker 2: to be here anymore. Um, I think every pastor ever

596
00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: has probably experienced this too. When somebody is in embracing

597
00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:18,450
Speaker 2: their sin or feeling despondent or in despair or depressed,

598
00:38:19,070 --> 00:38:21,330
Speaker 2: you start seeing they quit showing up for church. They

599
00:38:21,350 --> 00:38:25,330
Speaker 2: start isolating, getting away from Christian people. I have a

600
00:38:25,489 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: friend and she will gladly admit this. She'll say, when I,

601
00:38:29,020 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: when I want my sin, I quit going to church

602
00:38:32,180 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: because I feel convicted when I'm at church. So I

603
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,020
Speaker 2: quit going to church so I don't have to feel

604
00:38:36,610 --> 00:38:40,069
Speaker 2: that guilt and conviction. And so when people are feeling suicidal,

605
00:38:40,410 --> 00:38:42,589
Speaker 2: they may not feel like they have the joy, joy,

606
00:38:42,650 --> 00:38:46,270
Speaker 2: joy of Jesus in their heart. And so they stay away.

607
00:38:46,810 --> 00:38:52,529
Speaker 2: So look for people who are isolating themselves. I would

608
00:38:52,570 --> 00:38:57,310
Speaker 2: also say that community, I believe, is one of the

609
00:38:57,410 --> 00:39:03,620
Speaker 2: strongest ways that churches can create a protective factor for

610
00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 2: people who are, uh, considering suicide as an option and

611
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: that participation doesn't necessarily equate community. Um, you can have

612
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,739
Speaker 2: somebody that shows up every day and hands out the

613
00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:18,930
Speaker 2: bulletins and goes home and isn't alone and, and, and

614
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:23,250
Speaker 2: feels completely isolated from everybody else. So, um, I think

615
00:39:23,330 --> 00:39:28,010
Speaker 2: it's just a matter of knowing your congregation, right? Knowing

616
00:39:28,050 --> 00:39:32,460
Speaker 2: what's going on in their lives, uh, Take any kind

617
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:35,859
Speaker 2: of loss seriously. Loss of job. Had one guy that

618
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,489
Speaker 2: was going to prison. Loss of freedom, right? We even

619
00:39:39,530 --> 00:39:44,890
Speaker 2: had one woman who lost her pet, and that loss

620
00:39:44,969 --> 00:39:49,130
Speaker 2: had her considering suicide as an option. Because that, you know,

621
00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:55,150
Speaker 2: her life was wrapped up in this dog. So any

622
00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:59,730
Speaker 2: kind of loss is something to at least minister to

623
00:40:00,170 --> 00:40:03,570
Speaker 2: or to speak into or to check in with, right?

624
00:40:03,610 --> 00:40:07,940
Speaker 2: Check in with your people a lot, things like that.

625
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,940
Speaker 2: And also, I say in the book that, and I

626
00:40:12,980 --> 00:40:15,580
Speaker 2: know I'm slipping more into the practical side of this,

627
00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:18,810
Speaker 2: but I think it's really important to ask very directly

628
00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:24,190
Speaker 2: about suicide. If your Holy spirit, Spidey sense, whatever's going off,

629
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: ask the question and ask it, um, very directly, very clearly.

630
00:40:28,910 --> 00:40:32,100
Speaker 2: Don't say things like, uh, clearly don't say, are you

631
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:35,620
Speaker 2: thinking of doing something stupid? Right. That, that demeans the

632
00:40:35,660 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: person that diminishes there. Who's going to answer that? Right. Yeah. Yes,

633
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,590
Speaker 2: I am. I feel like I'm totally, thank you. Um,

634
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:47,549
Speaker 2: But also don't say things like, are you thinking about

635
00:40:47,610 --> 00:40:52,299
Speaker 2: hurting yourself? We say it like that because we want

636
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,620
Speaker 2: to soften it on ourselves, honestly. But the person that's

637
00:40:56,780 --> 00:41:00,060
Speaker 2: in that suicidal space is thinking, no, I'm thinking about

638
00:41:00,219 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: ending my pain. I'm in pain. So I'm not thinking

639
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 2: about hurting myself. I'm thinking about stopping the hurting. And

640
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:07,899
Speaker 2: this is how I'm going to do it. I say

641
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,380
Speaker 2: be very clear, very direct. Are you thinking about suicide?

642
00:41:12,219 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 2: And if they say yes... then you have some steps

643
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: that you can take. If they say no and you

644
00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:22,969
Speaker 2: believe them, then you have still checked in on that

645
00:41:23,070 --> 00:41:27,270
Speaker 2: person and you can still walk with, doesn't mean you're like, okay, good,

646
00:41:27,630 --> 00:41:29,589
Speaker 2: good to go. See you next Sunday. Right? You can

647
00:41:29,650 --> 00:41:32,140
Speaker 2: still speak into that person's life. You can still help

648
00:41:32,180 --> 00:41:35,020
Speaker 2: them with resources. You can still connect with them and

649
00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:37,250
Speaker 2: follow up with them. So it just gives you a, a,

650
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: a point to, to know the, the, The way you

651
00:41:41,780 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: can for sure know somebody is suicidal is simply to

652
00:41:45,010 --> 00:41:49,569
Speaker 2: ask them. That's the short answer. That's the long answer

653
00:41:49,610 --> 00:41:52,390
Speaker 2: to your short question. That's how you know is that

654
00:41:52,410 --> 00:41:54,030
Speaker 2: you ask them. Yeah.

655
00:41:54,910 --> 00:41:57,210
Speaker 1: And some of the warning signs are just like these

656
00:41:59,790 --> 00:42:06,380
Speaker 1: wild behavioral changes. And I don't mean wild like there

657
00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:10,930
Speaker 1: are these shifts in behavior that that should signal to

658
00:42:11,090 --> 00:42:14,190
Speaker 1: us that there's something going on there that's worth probing.

659
00:42:14,910 --> 00:42:15,770
Speaker 2: Right.

660
00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:19,110
Speaker 1: That we need to start paying attention to this person

661
00:42:19,150 --> 00:42:23,259
Speaker 1: and not assuming that they're okay because the gruff chaplain

662
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: who is now, you know, exuberant and hang, you know,

663
00:42:26,940 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: friendly and all those kinds of things. We sit back

664
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,340
Speaker 1: and say, finally, this guy's not a, you know, he's

665
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,290
Speaker 1: not being a gruff jerk anymore. That's great for us.

666
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 1: But we need to take the further step and say,

667
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,290
Speaker 1: I wonder what's going on with him.

668
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:41,009
Speaker 2: Right.

669
00:42:41,050 --> 00:42:42,270
Speaker 1: This change has occurred.

670
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:43,430
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.

671
00:42:44,030 --> 00:42:45,969
Speaker 1: And so we need to be watching for some of

672
00:42:46,010 --> 00:42:51,020
Speaker 1: those behaviors, watching for language. The way people frame and

673
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:56,700
Speaker 1: talk about themselves, even flippantly, is probably something to tie into.

674
00:42:59,290 --> 00:43:02,390
Speaker 1: You know, if we're hearing things like, oh, yeah, my

675
00:43:02,410 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 1: kids don't need me anymore or something like that, that

676
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: can be just normal parenting transitional stuff. But it could

677
00:43:10,060 --> 00:43:13,900
Speaker 1: also be something quite much deeper and more serious.

678
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,060
Speaker 2: And the way we find out is to ask. And

679
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: I'm telling you that if the person is still alive,

680
00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:25,310
Speaker 2: they have not obviously committed themselves to the idea of suicide.

681
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:30,629
Speaker 2: They are. So they are throwing out lifelines. in some

682
00:43:30,690 --> 00:43:33,569
Speaker 2: form or fashion, whether they're subtle or obvious, they are

683
00:43:33,610 --> 00:43:40,710
Speaker 2: throwing out these pleas for help in some way, whether

684
00:43:40,739 --> 00:43:42,940
Speaker 2: it's in a conversation or whether it's an action or

685
00:43:42,980 --> 00:43:47,460
Speaker 2: a behavior or whatever. There is something going on that

686
00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:50,219
Speaker 2: you can hold on to to say, I need to

687
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,489
Speaker 2: at least check in with that person. So I have

688
00:43:54,670 --> 00:43:59,650
Speaker 2: never asked somebody directly about suicide that has gotten mad

689
00:43:59,670 --> 00:44:03,589
Speaker 2: at me for asking. I've either had people say yes,

690
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: and you can see the relief on their shoulders. Yeah,

691
00:44:07,620 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: I am, you know, and I don't know what to

692
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: do with that. Right. That's fine. At least I know

693
00:44:12,660 --> 00:44:15,259
Speaker 2: where I'm at now. Or they say, no, no, not

694
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,060
Speaker 2: at all. Not even close. Right. I'm not, I'm not

695
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:19,299
Speaker 2: thinking about that at all. And that's cool too. Cause

696
00:44:19,340 --> 00:44:22,150
Speaker 2: then I know again where I'm at with it. Um,

697
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: and I don't ask everybody I meet, are you thinking

698
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:26,290
Speaker 2: about killing yourself?

699
00:44:26,310 --> 00:44:28,009
Speaker 1: Like a third question. So what do you do for

700
00:44:28,030 --> 00:44:30,089
Speaker 1: a living? And are you thinking about, yeah.

701
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:32,230
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, a lot of it, you just have to,

702
00:44:32,310 --> 00:44:34,609
Speaker 2: I mean, I would say trust your intuition, watch for

703
00:44:34,650 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: signs and really know your, know your congregation, know your

704
00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:40,180
Speaker 2: people that you minister to what's going on with them.

705
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: There are people that are elderly that are maybe have

706
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: some kind of medical issue in the hospital in deep

707
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,580
Speaker 2: pain and deep suffering. And they just want it to end. Um,

708
00:44:52,489 --> 00:44:54,310
Speaker 2: that you would never think, you know, a super saint,

709
00:44:54,489 --> 00:44:57,169
Speaker 2: that you would never think would be suicidal. And even

710
00:44:57,310 --> 00:44:59,770
Speaker 2: if they don't have the means to do it, you

711
00:44:59,790 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: can still have that conversation with them. They may have

712
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,899
Speaker 2: that feeling of, I want this to end, I want

713
00:45:04,940 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: to die. And then as a pastor, how do you

714
00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: speak into that? You know, with the hope of Christ.

715
00:45:11,140 --> 00:45:14,730
Speaker 2: So it gives you an opportunity to have some really good,

716
00:45:14,890 --> 00:45:18,290
Speaker 2: solid biblical conversations with people and really minister to their hearts.

717
00:45:19,750 --> 00:45:22,950
Speaker 1: And in all those congregations, conversations that you're having, all

718
00:45:23,010 --> 00:45:25,910
Speaker 1: those sort of tips that you're providing is a picture

719
00:45:25,950 --> 00:45:29,709
Speaker 1: of community that I don't think we necessarily, it's very

720
00:45:29,770 --> 00:45:34,140
Speaker 1: difficult to actually articulate what community is when we talk

721
00:45:34,180 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: about it, because I think sometimes we get into that

722
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,859
Speaker 1: sort of space of, well, it's just, you know, sort

723
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:43,259
Speaker 1: of a vague circle of friends that can get together

724
00:45:43,580 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: and enjoy a meal or what have you. But this

725
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: sort of community that catches this is one that is

726
00:45:50,590 --> 00:45:56,009
Speaker 1: has developed instincts for one another where these micro changes,

727
00:45:56,110 --> 00:46:00,029
Speaker 1: small statements that there's a level of intimacy there that

728
00:46:00,110 --> 00:46:04,489
Speaker 1: really you have to see in order to understand there's

729
00:46:04,530 --> 00:46:08,859
Speaker 1: an underlying problem here that needs to be addressed. There's

730
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,219
Speaker 1: an underlying change here that needs to be addressed. And

731
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,660
Speaker 1: I'm hoping it's a good thing. I'm willing to recognize

732
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: it's a bad thing. Either way, I'd like to find

733
00:46:17,140 --> 00:46:17,980
Speaker 1: out what's going on.

734
00:46:18,820 --> 00:46:21,420
Speaker 2: Exactly. And, And, you know, one of the things as

735
00:46:21,460 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: a bivocational pastor, one of the things I told my

736
00:46:23,980 --> 00:46:26,540
Speaker 2: church right off the bat is that, look, I work

737
00:46:26,580 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 2: full time. I have a family. I am not the

738
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,450
Speaker 2: pastor that's going to fix the plumbing, preach on Sunday,

739
00:46:33,510 --> 00:46:36,489
Speaker 2: mow the grass, visit everybody in the hospital. You know,

740
00:46:36,930 --> 00:46:39,130
Speaker 2: I can't do all the things. This is not a

741
00:46:39,390 --> 00:46:42,890
Speaker 2: one person job, right? This is an everybody. This is

742
00:46:42,930 --> 00:46:47,750
Speaker 2: an everybody awareness kind of thing. So community might be

743
00:46:48,190 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: the Sunday school teacher. that's got six people in, in,

744
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,219
Speaker 2: in his class. Right. But he knows what's going on

745
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: in their lives through prayer requests, right? How are we

746
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,100
Speaker 2: praying for each other? What's going on? And they can,

747
00:47:00,140 --> 00:47:03,180
Speaker 2: at least this book is for them too. Right. I

748
00:47:03,219 --> 00:47:06,490
Speaker 2: don't think that there's a person that I cannot train

749
00:47:06,550 --> 00:47:11,450
Speaker 2: to do suicide intervention. We all have the skills to

750
00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:15,069
Speaker 2: do it. We just don't necessarily have the knowledge because

751
00:47:15,130 --> 00:47:18,820
Speaker 2: we haven't been shown the knowledge. And it is so taboo. We,

752
00:47:19,489 --> 00:47:20,770
Speaker 2: we choose that to avoid it.

753
00:47:20,910 --> 00:47:21,170
Speaker 1: Right.

754
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:24,629
Speaker 2: Um, instead of, of saying, okay, how do I quit

755
00:47:24,670 --> 00:47:30,850
Speaker 2: myself to, um, to feel confident? Because when, when, when

756
00:47:30,890 --> 00:47:33,270
Speaker 2: you ask somebody if they want to kill themselves and

757
00:47:33,310 --> 00:47:36,250
Speaker 2: they say, yes, it sucks the air out of the room.

758
00:47:37,489 --> 00:47:41,140
Speaker 2: I mean, it just, there's a weight to it. And so, um,

759
00:47:42,180 --> 00:47:45,070
Speaker 2: a lot of people, if they don't, if they're, if

760
00:47:45,090 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: they're not equipped, they panic.

761
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: Right.

762
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,370
Speaker 2: Um, In the Army, you don't take kids from high

763
00:47:50,430 --> 00:47:53,590
Speaker 2: school and give them a uniform and drop them in

764
00:47:53,610 --> 00:47:57,649
Speaker 2: a combat zone because they would freak out. You train them, right?

765
00:47:57,890 --> 00:48:00,860
Speaker 2: You train them, you equip them, you prepare them for

766
00:48:00,890 --> 00:48:04,620
Speaker 2: that possibly bad thing. So when that bad thing does happen,

767
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,459
Speaker 2: they rely on that training. Same thing with suicide prevention, right?

768
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: We talk about it, we educate ourselves about it, we

769
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,129
Speaker 2: prepare for it so that when it happens, we know

770
00:48:15,170 --> 00:48:17,790
Speaker 2: what to do, right? We're not as freaked out about.

771
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:21,180
Speaker 1: We don't have a ton of time left, but I

772
00:48:21,219 --> 00:48:23,390
Speaker 1: want to, I did want to talk a little bit

773
00:48:23,410 --> 00:48:28,390
Speaker 1: about the biblical counseling. My experience with biblical counseling has been, uh,

774
00:48:29,469 --> 00:48:33,430
Speaker 1: less than stellar. Just personally, I had a pastor back

775
00:48:33,469 --> 00:48:34,910
Speaker 1: in the day when I was in high school and

776
00:48:34,930 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: he was a biblical counselor. And the experience was basically like, um,

777
00:48:40,020 --> 00:48:42,219
Speaker 1: you're doing things wrong. Here's a Bible verse. You should

778
00:48:42,260 --> 00:48:43,380
Speaker 1: meditate on it and obey it.

779
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: Right.

780
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,570
Speaker 1: And, and there is a, There is an underlying dynamic

781
00:48:48,590 --> 00:48:52,779
Speaker 1: to that that I get, right? Obeying God's word is

782
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,299
Speaker 1: never a bad idea. And so, sure, like I get that.

783
00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:02,859
Speaker 1: How do you approach biblical counseling? Is that a, was

784
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,770
Speaker 1: my experience common or is there a better way of

785
00:49:06,850 --> 00:49:09,270
Speaker 1: thinking about biblical counseling? So I guess I'm wanting you

786
00:49:09,310 --> 00:49:12,610
Speaker 1: to give your understanding of how you do biblical counseling,

787
00:49:12,670 --> 00:49:15,590
Speaker 1: especially in this realm. Because it seems to me that

788
00:49:15,610 --> 00:49:18,310
Speaker 1: the way I've experienced it just wouldn't really work that well.

789
00:49:18,910 --> 00:49:21,930
Speaker 2: What's your deal? is, is, is walking me to the

790
00:49:22,030 --> 00:49:24,650
Speaker 2: edge of a minefield and asking me to walk forward.

791
00:49:24,670 --> 00:49:27,210
Speaker 1: Um, it's exactly what it felt like.

792
00:49:27,250 --> 00:49:31,219
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Because, so I just went to the ACBC, uh,

793
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:37,890
Speaker 2: annual conference in, in Germantown, Tennessee. And there's actually this very, uh,

794
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:43,610
Speaker 2: political schism between in the in the biblical counseling world

795
00:49:44,210 --> 00:49:49,149
Speaker 2: of you know if if the bible is sufficient or

796
00:49:49,770 --> 00:49:52,250
Speaker 2: the bible plus you know don't throw the baby out

797
00:49:52,270 --> 00:49:54,830
Speaker 2: with the bath water with some of these mental health

798
00:49:54,910 --> 00:49:58,450
Speaker 2: stuff things and my gosh there's such a line in

799
00:49:58,469 --> 00:50:02,780
Speaker 2: the sand over that and and um there are people

800
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,810
Speaker 2: that are very passionate about it um i believe that

801
00:50:07,870 --> 00:50:14,569
Speaker 2: the Bible has everything we need for life and for godliness.

802
00:50:16,210 --> 00:50:23,390
Speaker 2: I also believe that there are people who might need

803
00:50:23,489 --> 00:50:26,260
Speaker 2: more than I can offer them as a biblical counselor.

804
00:50:28,460 --> 00:50:32,959
Speaker 2: I don't think it's an either-or question. And this is

805
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:40,100
Speaker 2: what I tell pastors, too. I was the pastor that

806
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: had the stack of business cards on my desk for

807
00:50:43,140 --> 00:50:48,070
Speaker 2: a Christian counselor, not a biblical counselor, just a Christian counselor, which,

808
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,910
Speaker 2: you know, some diehard biblical counselors would just be, you know,

809
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:54,489
Speaker 2: clutch their pearls about on their desk because I did

810
00:50:54,530 --> 00:50:58,710
Speaker 2: not feel equipped to help those people. I think the

811
00:50:58,750 --> 00:51:02,710
Speaker 2: roles can actually complement each other. So for instance, and

812
00:51:02,750 --> 00:51:05,450
Speaker 2: I'm going to use this illustration, if I break my

813
00:51:05,590 --> 00:51:08,070
Speaker 2: arm today and I am going to go to the hospital.

814
00:51:08,330 --> 00:51:10,770
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to a nurse and a doctor,

815
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:12,410
Speaker 2: and I'm going to get a cast on my arm.

816
00:51:13,830 --> 00:51:16,310
Speaker 2: I'm not going to go to a biblical counselor to

817
00:51:16,630 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: give me a verse about brokenness to pray over, right?

818
00:51:24,860 --> 00:51:26,219
Speaker 2: When people come to me and they say, I'm on

819
00:51:26,260 --> 00:51:28,470
Speaker 2: this medicine, I'm on this medicine, I don't tell them

820
00:51:28,489 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 2: quit taking their medicines. I'm not a medical professional. I

821
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: am not a licensed clinical counselor or psychiatrist. I'm a

822
00:51:36,140 --> 00:51:38,430
Speaker 2: biblical counselor. I can tell you what the Bible says

823
00:51:38,570 --> 00:51:41,530
Speaker 2: about your issues. And I think those, all those things

824
00:51:42,290 --> 00:51:44,690
Speaker 2: have a place in a person's life, depending on the person,

825
00:51:44,730 --> 00:51:49,970
Speaker 2: depending on their circumstance. I think pastors, church leaders, biblical

826
00:51:50,010 --> 00:51:55,430
Speaker 2: counselors can bring spiritual care, biblical encouragement, you know, great advice.

827
00:51:58,210 --> 00:52:01,779
Speaker 2: stuff on working with heart issues and an ongoing support

828
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 2: of community. Mental health professionals can bring assessments or treatments

829
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 2: within their training and scope of practice. And we need,

830
00:52:10,940 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: I think, we need to recognize that there are situations

831
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:17,450
Speaker 2: where pastoral care alone isn't sufficient. But I also don't

832
00:52:17,469 --> 00:52:19,950
Speaker 2: believe that referring someone for professional help is a failure

833
00:52:19,969 --> 00:52:23,710
Speaker 2: of ministry. I think it can be an important expression

834
00:52:23,790 --> 00:52:26,489
Speaker 2: of loving that person well. And I want churches to

835
00:52:26,570 --> 00:52:30,469
Speaker 2: understand that both what they can do and what they

836
00:52:30,489 --> 00:52:32,950
Speaker 2: need to do to bring others alongside of them. So

837
00:52:34,219 --> 00:52:36,740
Speaker 2: I come home from the hospital, my arms in a cast,

838
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: and I can't do certain things. My church might be

839
00:52:42,060 --> 00:52:45,460
Speaker 2: able to bring meals. My pastor may be able to

840
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:48,100
Speaker 2: come visit me in the hospital or, you know, some

841
00:52:48,180 --> 00:52:50,450
Speaker 2: friends from church might be able to come over and

842
00:52:51,150 --> 00:52:54,290
Speaker 2: help me do some chores or something like that. I

843
00:52:54,310 --> 00:52:57,310
Speaker 2: think they go hand in hand, right? We can work together.

844
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:03,740
Speaker 2: I have people that I counsel that, um, they only

845
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: want biblical counseling and that's fine. I'm not going to

846
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:09,170
Speaker 2: refer them to anybody else. I'm going to share what

847
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:10,989
Speaker 2: the Bible has to say about their issue, what it

848
00:53:11,050 --> 00:53:13,529
Speaker 2: has to say about their heart. And yeah, maybe I

849
00:53:13,590 --> 00:53:16,410
Speaker 2: might give them, well, not maybe I'm going to give

850
00:53:16,450 --> 00:53:19,770
Speaker 2: them some biblical things to meditate on and, and to,

851
00:53:20,030 --> 00:53:23,609
Speaker 2: to let the Holy spirit do his progressive sanctifying work

852
00:53:23,650 --> 00:53:27,250
Speaker 2: in their hearts. Um, But I've also had people tell

853
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:29,950
Speaker 2: me this isn't for me, you know, and I say,

854
00:53:29,969 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 2: that's fine. It's not for everybody. So I hope that

855
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,060
Speaker 2: answered your questions. I'm not a clinician. I'm a biblical counselor.

856
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 2: And I feel like I'm going to stay in my

857
00:53:41,140 --> 00:53:46,780
Speaker 2: lane and not presuppose what other people can or can't do. Yeah.

858
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,580
Speaker 1: No, it's interesting. I mean, you describing that schism is

859
00:53:49,660 --> 00:53:52,730
Speaker 1: actually really helpful because It would remind me of I

860
00:53:52,770 --> 00:53:55,180
Speaker 1: just came back from Switzerland on this Reformation tour. And

861
00:53:55,219 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: a big part of the Reformation was you had the

862
00:53:57,980 --> 00:54:01,339
Speaker 1: folks who were saying, let's only change what really needs

863
00:54:01,380 --> 00:54:04,709
Speaker 1: to be changed. And so, you know, Luther. he wasn't

864
00:54:04,750 --> 00:54:06,569
Speaker 1: going to get rid of all the ritual and all

865
00:54:06,650 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 1: the art and all the symbology in the church. That

866
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: wasn't his plan. And so that's in part why you

867
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: have Lutheran churches that look a lot more Catholic than

868
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:18,010
Speaker 1: let's say you're running the mill Baptist church, you know,

869
00:54:18,530 --> 00:54:21,029
Speaker 1: because there was another wing of the reformation that said, no,

870
00:54:21,230 --> 00:54:24,370
Speaker 1: all of it needs to go. And it feels like that,

871
00:54:24,570 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, you, the way you describe that schism and

872
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,529
Speaker 1: biblical counseling, it's like, that's what it feels like. You

873
00:54:29,550 --> 00:54:31,870
Speaker 1: have one side that's a little more radical and just saying, no,

874
00:54:31,890 --> 00:54:33,330
Speaker 1: we got to get rid of all of it. It's

875
00:54:33,410 --> 00:54:37,810
Speaker 1: only Bible versus the other side that's saying, well, no,

876
00:54:37,830 --> 00:54:42,030
Speaker 1: like this is really crucial, but we shouldn't just throw

877
00:54:42,110 --> 00:54:46,259
Speaker 1: everything else out too. And so that's helpful. I think

878
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: my encounter was probably with one of those folks who

879
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,819
Speaker 1: was a little more, let's get rid of all the

880
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,870
Speaker 1: rest of it and just do this. Which was, again,

881
00:54:56,950 --> 00:55:01,570
Speaker 1: I can see the wisdom in it. I don't, I

882
00:55:01,630 --> 00:55:05,670
Speaker 1: wouldn't reject biblical counseling out of hand. I think for

883
00:55:05,730 --> 00:55:08,029
Speaker 1: me at the time, I could have used some additional

884
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:09,469
Speaker 1: different help.

885
00:55:10,020 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

886
00:55:10,580 --> 00:55:13,100
Speaker 1: And he was very unwilling to give it.

887
00:55:13,100 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: Very unwilling to give it, right? Yeah. If I'm talking

888
00:55:16,500 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 2: to somebody and they say, Pastor, I feel like taking

889
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 2: my own life. And I say, Yeah. do you have

890
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: a plan? Yes. It's, it's six o'clock. There's a six

891
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,219
Speaker 2: o'clock train and it's five 45 and I'm walking to the,

892
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 2: to the tracks. Right. Um, I will, I'm going to

893
00:55:32,500 --> 00:55:36,700
Speaker 2: call nine one one. Yeah. Right. I'm still going to

894
00:55:36,739 --> 00:55:39,219
Speaker 2: minister to that person. I'm still going to walk with them.

895
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,660
Speaker 2: I'm still going to be there for aftercare. But if, if,

896
00:55:44,340 --> 00:55:46,700
Speaker 2: if it's imminent and urgent, I'm still going to call

897
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 2: nine one one. I mean, there's a reason that those

898
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,630
Speaker 2: things are in place. Just like, You know, like in

899
00:55:51,650 --> 00:55:54,109
Speaker 2: the tabernacle and the setup for sin, right?

900
00:55:54,730 --> 00:55:55,030
Speaker 1: Right.

901
00:55:55,290 --> 00:55:57,890
Speaker 2: There's a reason that it's there. And I think we

902
00:55:57,930 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 2: would be foolish to say, well, it's 545. Let me

903
00:56:03,460 --> 00:56:06,259
Speaker 2: counsel you on the way to the track and see

904
00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 2: if you change your mind. Maybe that works. But I'm

905
00:56:09,260 --> 00:56:13,650
Speaker 2: going to call 911, just me personally. And I'm going

906
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:16,910
Speaker 2: to stay with that person. I'm going to love that person.

907
00:56:17,010 --> 00:56:18,870
Speaker 2: And I'm going to encourage them. I'm going to support them.

908
00:56:19,390 --> 00:56:21,730
Speaker 2: as they go to the hospital, I'm going to go

909
00:56:21,790 --> 00:56:23,509
Speaker 2: with them. I'm going to be there when they get

910
00:56:23,610 --> 00:56:25,370
Speaker 2: out of the hospital. I'm going to minister to them.

911
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:26,850
Speaker 2: I'm going to love them. I'm going to support them

912
00:56:26,890 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 2: and encourage. I want to do biblical counseling with them. Right. Yeah.

913
00:56:30,180 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: But in that moment, in that context, I may need

914
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 2: to call 911 and get some, yeah, you know, some,

915
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,859
Speaker 2: some hands on that person to keep them safe because

916
00:56:38,940 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 2: ultimately that's what we want to do. Right. We want

917
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,629
Speaker 2: to keep the person alive. So, yeah.

918
00:56:44,450 --> 00:56:47,910
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, bro, um, This has been a great conversation.

919
00:56:48,250 --> 00:56:50,410
Speaker 1: And I know you're a little nervous about the interview,

920
00:56:50,450 --> 00:56:53,069
Speaker 1: but you did a great job. It was awesome. I mean,

921
00:56:53,570 --> 00:56:56,910
Speaker 1: your mastery of this material and your understanding of how

922
00:56:56,950 --> 00:57:01,830
Speaker 1: to work with these folks and help churches recognize when

923
00:57:01,989 --> 00:57:04,230
Speaker 1: someone might be in trouble, like you've just got so

924
00:57:04,270 --> 00:57:07,130
Speaker 1: much depth of experience with it. And so appreciate you

925
00:57:07,150 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 1: sharing that. I would encourage everybody who's listening, go out

926
00:57:10,940 --> 00:57:13,529
Speaker 1: and check out the book. Even if you don't know

927
00:57:13,590 --> 00:57:16,590
Speaker 1: someone right now who's struggling with suicide, this is good

928
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:19,730
Speaker 1: sort of prophylactic stuff to have in your back pocket

929
00:57:19,790 --> 00:57:24,270
Speaker 1: to understand, like, you may be missing signs right now.

930
00:57:24,670 --> 00:57:28,910
Speaker 1: And so great book by a great guy who's got

931
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:31,930
Speaker 1: a depth of experience in these matters, Holding Hope, A

932
00:57:31,970 --> 00:57:35,060
Speaker 1: Biblical Guide to Suicide Prevention for Church Leaders. It's available

933
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,130
Speaker 1: on Amazon. The links will be in the show description. Um,

934
00:57:38,330 --> 00:57:40,430
Speaker 1: anywhere else we can route them to find out more

935
00:57:40,450 --> 00:57:43,970
Speaker 1: about you, David, um, Amazon author page, obviously it's, it's

936
00:57:44,030 --> 00:57:46,290
Speaker 1: linked to the book, but any other, any, anywhere else

937
00:57:46,330 --> 00:57:47,350
Speaker 1: they can find more about you?

938
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you asked. I do have a website, uh, www.davidgilland.com.

939
00:57:53,820 --> 00:57:57,980
Speaker 3: So D A V I D G I L L

940
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,660
Speaker 3: E L A N D.com.

941
00:58:01,460 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 2: And what I've done on there is, is a resource tab.

942
00:58:04,210 --> 00:58:07,530
Speaker 2: that has all of the appendices from the book, like

943
00:58:07,570 --> 00:58:11,070
Speaker 2: for the church suicide policy, for emergency plans, all that

944
00:58:11,110 --> 00:58:15,260
Speaker 2: stuff is there for free download PDF. So, you know,

945
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: you don't have this little six by nine thing. You

946
00:58:17,340 --> 00:58:19,860
Speaker 2: don't have to retype it. You can just download it

947
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 2: and do it for your church. There's also a paid

948
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,330
Speaker 2: resource on there, which is a workbook. that goes along

949
00:58:27,350 --> 00:58:31,010
Speaker 2: with the book that, interestingly enough, uses Saul as a

950
00:58:31,050 --> 00:58:35,580
Speaker 2: case study for the whole book, chapter by chapter. We

951
00:58:35,620 --> 00:58:38,580
Speaker 2: walk with Saul kind of through that. And then you

952
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,380
Speaker 2: can also get on there if you want me to

953
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 2: come do some training at your church or speaking to

954
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,580
Speaker 2: your church, anything like that. All that can be booked

955
00:58:45,620 --> 00:58:49,580
Speaker 2: on the website, www.davidgillen.com, and the book is there as well.

956
00:58:49,620 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: You can check it out. Cool.

957
00:58:51,670 --> 00:58:53,710
Speaker 1: Okay, both those links will be in the show description.

958
00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: So I'd encourage you to check them out. Buy the book,

959
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: check out David's website. And again, thanks for being here, man.

960
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,180
Speaker 1: This has been great. And we'll close it off there.

961
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:09,010
Speaker 1: But hope everybody enjoyed this very important topic. And um

962
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,150
Speaker 1: we'll catch you on the next episode of thinking christian

963
00:59:11,410 --> 00:59:12,090
Speaker 1: take care everybody