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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to The Becket Cook Show with your

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Speaker 2: host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,

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Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support

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Speaker 2: the podcast, visit Patreon dot com slash the Beckett Cook Show.

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Speaker 2: Please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a five

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Speaker 2: star rating.

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Speaker 3: Hey, guys, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: I have a very special guest, Chase Davis, and he's

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Speaker 4: written a new book called Offensive Christianity, Restoring the Strength

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Speaker 4: of Men in a Feminized Age. It's fascinating read and

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Speaker 4: we're going to get into all of the details of

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Speaker 4: this book and some of the things are very surprising.

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Speaker 4: I was surprised by a lot of it and you'll

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Speaker 4: find it fascinating. But first award from our sponsor, Please

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Speaker 4: welcome Chase Davis.

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Speaker 1: Glad to be here. Thanks so much for having me on.

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Speaker 4: Good to have you so Offensive Christianity. Where Why did

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Speaker 4: why this title?

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Speaker 1: Well, I've went around a bunch of different titles with

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Speaker 1: the book. I was trying to come up with something

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Speaker 1: that obviously would catch people's attention. But it's definitely a

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Speaker 1: shift from my own ministry experience and kind of a

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Speaker 1: countercultural perspective on what a lot of evangelicals are sold today.

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Speaker 1: A lot of evangelicals are sold and in offensive Christianity

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Speaker 1: an offense Christianity that's kind of playing defense. Never once

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Speaker 1: it hurts people, hurt people's feelings, doesn't want to antagonize

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Speaker 1: anything like that. I was like, what is the opposite

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Speaker 1: of that? We want to go on offense. We want

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Speaker 1: offensive christian It's a double entendron purpose for these reasons.

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Speaker 1: So with offensive Christianity, what we're talking about is how

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're in LA. A lot of Hollywood

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the movies and kind of cultural

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Speaker 1: milieu that's out there will promote the idea that masculinity

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Speaker 1: itself is toxic, that it's a problem. I've even heard

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Speaker 1: of movie directors saying testosterone kind of needs to be eradicated.

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Speaker 1: And so we live in a day where men by

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Speaker 1: the very nature are viewed as offensive creatures. They're kind

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Speaker 1: of viewed as like these cave dwellers, these brutal creatures.

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Speaker 1: Almost named the book Brutal Christianity, but I thought that

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Speaker 1: it would even be way too spicy. So with offensive

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Speaker 1: because look, you by being a man today and today's

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Speaker 1: day and agent America in twenty twenty six will be

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Speaker 1: perceived to be offensive, and I'm just trying to get

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Speaker 1: you to embrace that. The other reality is that when

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Speaker 1: Christians go on offense, meaning we're not just playing defense,

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Speaker 1: we're not just settling for carve outs. We're trying to

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Speaker 1: achieve victory. We're trying to advance the Kingdom of God.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to get legal wins, cultural wins, and we're

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Speaker 1: taking the attack to the enemy, by which I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course, not physical attacks necessarily at all, but we're

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Speaker 1: talking about how do we advance Christ's lordship in every

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Speaker 1: sphere of life, every domain, and that's going to be

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Speaker 1: perceived as offensive. When you go on offense, a defense

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Speaker 1: doesn't appreciate that. They receive it as an offensive measure,

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Speaker 1: and so we shouldn't be afraid of that. I saw

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Speaker 1: this in my own state in Colorado. You may not

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Speaker 1: know this, some of your listeners may not, but you know,

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Speaker 1: back in the nineteen nineties, you know ancient history, now,

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Speaker 1: Colorado passed a ban on same sex marriage, and the

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ activists were so incensed by this, so offended by this.

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Speaker 1: Then instead of you know, backing off. They actually went

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Speaker 1: on the offense, and they took over the state. A

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Speaker 1: lot of Christians they took the wrong message, they learned

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Speaker 1: the wrong lesson from that, and they thought, well, we

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Speaker 1: upset them so much, we offended them so much that

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Speaker 1: they decided to fight back. So let's not take that

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Speaker 1: same posture. Let's not try to enact law that would

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Speaker 1: prevent sin. Instead, let's acquiesce. And that's what the church

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Speaker 1: has been doing, not just in Colorado but all over

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Speaker 1: the United States for too long. And so I'm calling

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Speaker 1: the church to take an offensive posture, to go on offense.

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Speaker 4: And Jack Phillips was a casualty in that whole debacle

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Speaker 4: in Colorado, and he actually was on the show a

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Speaker 4: while ago. But yeah, I mean, it's it's totally insane.

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Speaker 4: And your introduction, this is what you say. You say,

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Speaker 4: My central thesis is this Christian men, stripped of their

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Speaker 4: God given power by a culture that reduces manhood to

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Speaker 4: ideas and demands endless empathy, must embrace an offensive Christianity

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Speaker 4: that boldly asserts authority and action over passive reflection. Yes, sir,

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Speaker 4: So that's the thesis. That's the point of this book.

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Speaker 4: Why did you Why did you even decide to write

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Speaker 4: this book?

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Speaker 1: Now, Well, a lot of it comes from my story.

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Speaker 1: For the first nine years of my ministry, I was

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Speaker 1: kind of under the gaze of institutions like the Gospel

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Speaker 1: Coalition and other church network's affiliated with them that promoted

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Speaker 1: a kind of cultural and game strategy called faithful presence

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Speaker 1: or winsome witness. And twenty twenty came for me like

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Speaker 1: it did for everybody else, and it revealed a lot

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Speaker 1: to me. It was kind of an apocalypse moment for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, a revelation of kind of three things,

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Speaker 1: particularly sex and gender related with transgenderism, race in America,

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Speaker 1: and of course COVID and kind of draconian laws that

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Speaker 1: were implemented in many places. And so with those three things,

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Speaker 1: I reevaluated, and I went back to God's word and

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Speaker 1: back to church history, and I said, hey, is this

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Speaker 1: really a durable strategy? Is this a biblical strategy? Is

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Speaker 1: it just permissible? Is it the only strategy? And what

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Speaker 1: I came to realize is that, look, this may be

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Speaker 1: one tool in your tool belt. You can you know,

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Speaker 1: if you want to run the Winsome Witness playbook and

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Speaker 1: see how that goes for you, go for it, But

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's a winning strategy for Christians today.

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Speaker 1: So I'm promoting a different strategy, and I'm particularly connecting

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Speaker 1: it to manhood. You know, this is written particularly for men.

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Speaker 1: It'll be a blessing for anyone that picks it up.

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Speaker 1: But for men today, you know, their concept of what

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Speaker 1: it means to be a great man, a good man,

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Speaker 1: a godly man is often reduced to kind of these

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Speaker 1: esoteric ideas, these ideals, and a lot of times there

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Speaker 1: is no difference. When you know pastors or Christian leaders

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Speaker 1: talk about what it means to be a good man,

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Speaker 1: it would be the same encouragement you would get for

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Speaker 1: an eighty two year old grandmother. So for a lot

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Speaker 1: of men, they're just encouraged to be old women in

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Speaker 1: terms of how the Bible is applied to their life.

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Speaker 1: And of course that's not what we see in the Bible,

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Speaker 1: that's not what we see throughout Church history. But in

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Speaker 1: our modern age, many men are struggling. They're kind of

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Speaker 1: grasping at straws. You see them kind of either larpen

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Speaker 1: or these other things, kind of taking on kind of

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Speaker 1: cultural tokens of what it means to be a man

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Speaker 1: with hunting, fishing and all this kind of stuff. Again,

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Speaker 1: not bad, that's fine. I like that stuff. But there's

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Speaker 1: something more fundamental I want to get out in the book,

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Speaker 1: and that's what I do. I get down to biology

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Speaker 1: and the creation of man and what God intended man

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Speaker 1: to be made for, which is glory and ultimately glory

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Speaker 1: and Him. And so that's a lot of the reason

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Speaker 1: I wrote the book. I mean, it's a timely book

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Speaker 1: in the sense that we're still dealing with a lot

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Speaker 1: of confusion around sex and our culture, and I don't

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Speaker 1: see Woke going away anytime soon. These people are deeply

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Speaker 1: entrenched in a really demonic ideology and their intent on

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Speaker 1: weaponizing it and imposing their way of life upon anyone

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Speaker 1: anywhere they have power. And so we need to embrace

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Speaker 1: this everywhere in America. And I'm convinced if every American

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Speaker 1: would read this book, and every Christian man would read

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Speaker 1: this book in America, then we would see a great

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Speaker 1: deal of spiritual renewal and kind of a revitalization of homes,

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Speaker 1: of churches, cities and states.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you may have just stated what the purpose

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Speaker 4: of the tell Us of Men is the glory of God.

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Speaker 4: But what is the because you talk about this in

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Speaker 4: chapter one, what is the tell us of men?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the tell us of men is to glorify God

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Speaker 1: and enjoy in forever. But particularly what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: there is we're made for glory. So this gets a

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Speaker 1: little confusing. Not in the book, but you know, men

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Speaker 1: get confused in great sermons from preachers like John Piper,

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Speaker 1: or they study the Westminster Catechism or whatever it may be,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, I want to glorify God and

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Speaker 1: everything I do, yes and amen. And also we should

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Speaker 1: be pursuing that in life, that pursuit of the glorification

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Speaker 1: of God and all of life. There's lesser glories that

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Speaker 1: come along the way. And I think for a lot

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Speaker 1: of Christians that we need to distinguish here. We're not

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Speaker 1: saying we should bring glory to ourselves. We're not trying

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Speaker 1: to be self aggrandizing anything like that. We're just saying, look,

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Speaker 1: as we get married, have children, start businesses, whatever we do,

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Speaker 1: we're enjoying those things that God has given us talents

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Speaker 1: to achieve, and that itself brings glory to God. The

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Speaker 1: classic examples the Athlete on the field. The young man

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Speaker 1: in college who wins a national championship and gives glory

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Speaker 1: to God. He's still proud of his work. He's proud

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Speaker 1: of his accomplishment, but he's giving glory to God. This

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Speaker 1: is a wonderful thing. And many people, unfortunately, especially are

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Speaker 1: kind of big evangelical thought leaders, they kind of look

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Speaker 1: down on this as kind of a simplistic faith. I

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Speaker 1: think it's a beautiful faith, and I think more Christianity

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Speaker 1: to embrace. Look, you can achieve great things in life.

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Speaker 1: You should pursue power, you should pursue authority, of course,

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Speaker 1: submitted to God's will. But we want to pursue glory.

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Speaker 1: And ultimately, the glory that you are hungry for can

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Speaker 1: only be found through the blood of Jesus Christ, and

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Speaker 1: it can be found in the Father. And that's your

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Speaker 1: eternal destination. So that tell Us is our eternal destination,

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Speaker 1: will be in glory with God forever. And once we've

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Speaker 1: got that lined up, there's a lot of winds we

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Speaker 1: can have along the way.

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Speaker 4: We'll be right back after this short break. Yeah, And

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Speaker 4: you talk about the body and the physical body, and

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Speaker 4: you say in this same chapter, you say Christianity neglects

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Speaker 4: the reality of the body at its own peril. It

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Speaker 4: is a peculiar thing since the physical reality of our

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Speaker 4: bodies is central to our beliefs.

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Speaker 1: Explain, Jesus Christ rose from the grave, and he is

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Speaker 1: embodied now he took flesh, embodied flesh into heaven. So

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Speaker 1: the Son of God, seeded to the right hand of

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Speaker 1: the Father, firstborn from the dead, is now embodied. And

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Speaker 1: so for us to neglect the body, to ignore the body,

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Speaker 1: to not talk about the body, to act like Christian

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Speaker 1: spirituality is just kind of a gnostic you know, disembodied

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Speaker 1: faith is really unfaithful to our own testimony of who

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ is. Christ came to redeem mankind, redeem all

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Speaker 1: things to himself, restore creation. And so when we neglect

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Speaker 1: the body and understanding what our bodies are for and

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Speaker 1: simply reduce Christianity to some kind of like escape hatch,

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Speaker 1: that we need to get rid of this shell and

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Speaker 1: then we can be truly ourselves, this is really an

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Speaker 1: unfaithful understanding of biblical passages regarding flesh and world and

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Speaker 1: also Church history in terms of how we should steward

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Speaker 1: our bodies. And so I think connecting manhood to biology

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Speaker 1: is really important. It's what set it's my work apart

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Speaker 1: from many other books on manhood today because I'm getting

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Speaker 1: into testosterone. I'm getting into these things where men today

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Speaker 1: do seem to be hollowed out and their very nature,

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Speaker 1: their lethargy, their a sayity, their laziness, their apathy, and

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Speaker 1: their lack of appetite is actually many times a result

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Speaker 1: of the fall, and it's a result of sin, and

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Speaker 1: it's also a result of environmental factors and biology and

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Speaker 1: being overweight and not fit and what we eat. All

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Speaker 1: of this is actually on the table for Christians to

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Speaker 1: talk about it, and I think we should and that's

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Speaker 1: why I write about it.

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Speaker 4: And it's kind of a This is kind of gnoscissism,

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Speaker 4: right when when you're separating the body and soul and

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Speaker 4: you talk about it in the book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, it's anism. Anoscism is the reality that, of

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Speaker 1: course there's some kind of secret knowledge that the material world,

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Speaker 1: material reality is bad and like utterly corrupt to where

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Speaker 1: it's not redeemable, and there's this super secret, special spiritual

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Speaker 1: knowledge that we need to pursue that's kind of hidden

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Speaker 1: and only certain people can know it, and really what

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Speaker 1: we're aiming for is a disembodied eternity, and that's of

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Speaker 1: course not the Christian faith. That's why Christianity has reputed

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Speaker 1: it over and over again. But narcissism comes up in

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Speaker 1: the Church all throughout our history. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: devil's favorite ways to deceive Christians, is this gnostic belief

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Speaker 1: that somehow we cannot know true spirituality unless you know,

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Speaker 1: we're free from the material world. This is just not

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Speaker 1: what Christianity teaches at all. And so in that way,

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Speaker 1: the book is also an apologetic for Christianity to show, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: what you think you understand or what you've heard about

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Speaker 1: Christianity might have been a little off in terms of

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Speaker 1: how we treat our bodies and how we understand how

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Speaker 1: the Christian faith is not a disembodied faith.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and narcissism was condemned as heresy in the third

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Speaker 4: century Ireonaus I think it was third century. And you

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Speaker 4: say you mentioned this, I don't know how to say

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Speaker 4: his name.

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Speaker 3: Caleb Morrel Morell.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but he talks about identity in Christ as a

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Speaker 4: recent theological innovation.

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Speaker 3: What is it that's kind of surprising to me?

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Speaker 1: What talk about that I'd love to, because no other

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Speaker 1: interviewer has asked me about this, and it's a really

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Speaker 1: important topic that I think Christians need to pay attention to.

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Speaker 1: So as a pastor and a preacher myself, I want

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Speaker 1: Christians to understand their salvation in Christ for that to

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Speaker 1: be a fundamental bedrock confidence they have that they are

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Speaker 1: found in Christ. They identify with Christ and his death

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Speaker 1: and his resurrection. These are really fundamental things about the

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Speaker 1: Christian faith. However, in our day, what we see identities

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Speaker 1: being formed into is kind of these personal choices, these

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Speaker 1: autonomous decisions that we make to come out or whatever

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Speaker 1: it may be that people choose to do, and that's

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Speaker 1: not how we want to understand salvation in Christ. Identity

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Speaker 1: in Christ really isn't written about in church history until

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Speaker 1: like the twenty century, nineteenth century, so it's a recent

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Speaker 1: kind of attempt at self conception, self actualization. And I

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Speaker 1: think for many Christians, their confidence in Christ, their allegiance

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Speaker 1: and loyalty to God rest too lightly because they've reduced

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Speaker 1: the Christian faith to kind of an identity they put on.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of a phase they go through, or

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Speaker 1: it's you know, I identify as a Christian. And it

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Speaker 1: sounds nice because it speaks to kind of our modern

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Speaker 1: age where everybody has an identity group and that's kind

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Speaker 1: of in vogue. But I don't think it's the most

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Speaker 1: helpful language when we're talking about salvation in Christ and

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Speaker 1: what it means to trust in Christ for salvation and

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Speaker 1: being rooted in Christ. And really the theological concept we

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Speaker 1: want to get back to is union with Christ. This

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Speaker 1: is something that we see all throughout church history. Union

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Speaker 1: with Christ is a beautiful thing. But identity in Christ

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Speaker 1: is not something I necessarily attack in the pulpit are

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Speaker 1: and much writing. But it's an important insight that I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to get at, is that, Look, just be careful

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Speaker 1: that as you articulate and understand your union with Christ,

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Speaker 1: you're not reducing Christ. You're not reducing salvation to some

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Speaker 1: kind of badge you put on or some kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, identity group thing that that many people use today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, union with Christ, that's that's such an important thing

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Speaker 4: concept or theological concept, because that's why when you're united

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Speaker 4: to Christ, when you're born again and you're united to Christ.

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Speaker 4: That's why Paul says there's no there there's therefore no

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Speaker 4: condemnation in Christ, because if you could be condemned, then

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Speaker 4: that would mean Christ would have to be condemned. So

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Speaker 4: it doesn't make any sense. So I love the concept

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Speaker 4: of union with Christ. It's very important you in your section,

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Speaker 4: you have a section called modern Christianity has a masculated Men.

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Speaker 4: And I love this because you talk about worship songs

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Speaker 4: that have lyrics and musical arrangements that sound like love

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Speaker 4: songs to a boyfriend rather than worship.

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Speaker 3: I mean this.

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Speaker 4: I I've experienced this so much in churches where it's

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Speaker 4: literally sounds like a.

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Speaker 3: You know, shaw Dai song. I'm like, what is this?

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Speaker 3: It's how do we get how do we get out

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Speaker 3: of this hole? It's terrible.

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Speaker 1: It is terrible, and there's a lot of money backing

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Speaker 1: the kind of Christian contemporary Christian music industry. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of Unfortunately, you know, I grew up in the church,

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Speaker 1: so I I know all of this music. Uh you know,

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Speaker 1: I was exposed to it at an early age. Some

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Speaker 1: of them I still sing today. And so uh lifted Me?

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Speaker 3: Do you know that song? Love Lifted Me?

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Speaker 1: I don't know that song.

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Speaker 3: It's the worst. It's like, what does that even mean?

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Speaker 3: Love lifted me well.

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Speaker 1: I remember listening to like Drawers of Clay back in

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Speaker 1: the day, and a lot of the songs didn't mention Christ.

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Speaker 1: It was just like you could sing it to a

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Speaker 1: girlfriend or something. And so there's two reasons I think

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Speaker 1: this is important. One it does posture Christianity is kind

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Speaker 1: of this weird, inappropriate relationship to Christ, and it reduces

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Speaker 1: men to kind of being girlfriends to Jesus the True Man.

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Speaker 1: And the second is that, you know, as these songs

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Speaker 1: become popular and as churches sing them, they're formational. And

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Speaker 1: the danger is when we don't sing in church kind

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Speaker 1: of psalms or hymns or spiritual songs that are very

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Speaker 1: theologically rich and reverent, if we don't highlight reverence is

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Speaker 1: a very important reality when we come to worship God.

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Speaker 1: What a lot of young Christians will experience is they'll,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're used to kind of this entertainment church

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Speaker 1: where they go and they sing these really powerful songs

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Speaker 1: in a dark room and all this kind of stuff,

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Speaker 1: and then they go to a concert that's not Christian

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Speaker 1: and they have the same kind of emotional experience and

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Speaker 1: they go, what is this, Why do I have this

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Speaker 1: similar emotional experience at a secular concert that I did

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Speaker 1: in church. And I think it's because a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have attached that emotional experience. They get on a

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Speaker 1: Sunday morning with like, that's what it means to delight

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Speaker 1: in Christ or be satisfying Christ, and all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden they get the same kind of dopamine hit. The

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Speaker 1: serotonin goes off at a secular concert, and now they're like,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, I can get the same thing by

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Speaker 1: just going out with my friends to a concert. And

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Speaker 1: so what I'm trying to steer us back to is like,

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Speaker 1: what does it mean to worship historically faithfully in a

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Speaker 1: Christian way? How does God design worship? Not getting too

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Speaker 1: like weird on what songs are allowed and what instruments

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Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff, but just saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's start with reverence. What does it look like to

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Speaker 1: show up to church and be reverent before the Lord?

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Speaker 1: What does it look like to submit ourselves to him

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Speaker 1: that we're worshiping a holy God, a risen Savior, and

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Speaker 1: we're coming before him, not not as people who are

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Speaker 1: ashamed to come beform, but glad to come perform, but

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Speaker 1: still honor and respect and esteem him greatly in everything

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Speaker 1: we do, including our worship music. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: worship music is just it feels emasculating to a lot

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Speaker 1: of men. And instead, when you get a bunch of

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Speaker 1: men in a room and they're singing just a traditional song,

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Speaker 1: let's say, amazing, grace up tempo, all the men are leading.

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Speaker 1: This is a powerful experience. It's very different than what

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Speaker 1: the world has to offer. And I think that's what

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Speaker 1: I'd love to see more churches get back to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the Taylor Swift effect. I h yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, not only is it reverent to to sing

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Speaker 4: you know, old hymns or even the.

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Speaker 3: Psalms obviously, but it's didactic.

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Speaker 4: I mean it's it's like we we live in such

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Speaker 4: a theologically anemic age. It's in evangelicalism, and I just

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Speaker 4: I'm just boggle. It boggles my mind when when churches

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Speaker 4: don't use the worship time to use hymns or other

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Speaker 4: songs or spiritual songs to teach also as well, not

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Speaker 4: just worship, but to teach like you know, very important

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Speaker 4: theological doctrines. And instead it's love lifted me.

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Speaker 3: So there you go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of music that I mean, music

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Speaker 1: is pedagogical, it is didacic, it will teach, And so

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Speaker 1: these phrases get caught up in your mind and you'll

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Speaker 1: hear yourself. This is why, you know, I love singing

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Speaker 1: Christian songs with my children because I want them to

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Speaker 1: stay with them like they stayed with me throughout my life.

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Speaker 1: When I have either hard times or joyous times, I

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Speaker 1: have a song on my heart that has been taught

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Speaker 1: to me from an early age. And I want them

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Speaker 1: to be singing good, theologically accurate songs that are true

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Speaker 1: to the Bible, and not songs that are just kind

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Speaker 1: of like you know, you could get anywhere else. And

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Speaker 1: I honestly I'd rather have my children singing, you know,

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Speaker 1: Onward Christian Soldiers, or these kind of classic hymns of

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Speaker 1: old or I'm in the Lord's Army, these these things

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Speaker 1: I say growing up in church, then a lot of

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Speaker 1: the modern stuff you're going to hear on your local

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Speaker 1: Christian radio.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And you and the second chapter of your book is

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Speaker 4: called Men without Chest? Is that an allusion to Abolition

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Speaker 4: of Man by C. S.

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Speaker 3: Lewis?

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Speaker 1: Yes, it is an illusion to the great Book that

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Speaker 1: everyone should read.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And you you mentioned six philosophical roots of immaterialism

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Speaker 4: in modern Christianity, and we're not going to go through

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Speaker 4: but if you could just touch on a couple, I'll

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Speaker 4: just state.

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Speaker 3: What they are.

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Speaker 4: The Enlightenment number one, number two, Romanticism number three, Pietism

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Speaker 4: number four, German higher criticism, number five, Nietzscheanism, number six, evangelicalism,

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Speaker 4: which was surprising. So can you just talk about let's see,

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Speaker 4: I mean, obviously the well touch on the Enlightenment and

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Speaker 4: Pietism and it kind of flesh out that a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Enlightenment was, you know, it's kind of the

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Speaker 1: better rock of the modern world in terms of philosophy.

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Speaker 1: And what it did is it reduced kind of humanity.

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Speaker 1: It separated humanity into kind of what we could know

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Speaker 1: and what we couldn't know, and a lot of those

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Speaker 1: we writ in rationalism, so very very big on logic

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Speaker 1: and reason, not so big on like family formation and

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Speaker 1: understanding the nature of men. So you get, you know,

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Speaker 1: the tabula rossa blank slate kind of approached to humanity.

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Speaker 1: There's no original corruption and if we could just provide

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Speaker 1: more education than ever, the world will just be better,

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Speaker 1: you know, no caveats on that. And so the Enlightenment

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Speaker 1: what it did is separated what could be known, So

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Speaker 1: spiritual matters were reduced to subjective opinions. So Christianity or

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Speaker 1: any kind of concern of faith and spirituality was an

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Speaker 1: opinion that you might have. We need to use science, right,

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Speaker 1: so when you hear trust the science today, this is

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Speaker 1: an Enlightenment perspective where we just need to believe only

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Speaker 1: what we can see. So it becomes very materialistic, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of it disembows, disembodies man to where those

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Speaker 1: higher matters, the soul, spiritual matters are just a matter

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Speaker 1: of opinion. Material matters are now cut off from any

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Speaker 1: kind of information from spiritual authority, and so now all

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Speaker 1: we have is we're reduced to science. And so there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that we are glad for the Enlightenment.

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Speaker 1: We're thankful for. But there's a serious critique of making

434
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: the book this kind of pairs with liberalism itself, a

435
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: critique of liberalism, which arose during the time of the

436
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: Enlightenment as being kind of the end all, be all

437
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 1: end of history approached politics and social arrangements, and so, yeah,

438
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 1: the Enlightenment is is like the starting point of the

439
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: modern age, and I think for me, I'm kind of

440
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: pinning this hollowed out man, this disembodied man, these gilded men,

441
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 1: this movement throughout Western civilization and the Church specifically as

442
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: being kind of starting there, and the pre modern Christians

443
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: that you read, they really didn't have these same strange

444
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: beliefs about body and soul.

445
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you touch on Jean Jaques Rousseau, who I

446
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 4: don't know if you know the journalists Melan the British

447
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 4: journalist Melanie Phillips, but she rightly calls Rousseau the greatest

448
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 4: villain of all time.

449
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: I haven't heard this.

450
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 3: He Rousseau really just destroyed the West.

451
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 4: I mean, he really did a number on the West

452
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 4: and we're still seeing the ripple effects today. And you know,

453
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 4: I would say one hundred percent of the left are

454
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 4: rousseau Ian and they're not even aware of it, and

455
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 4: some and some of the people on the ridar as well.

456
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: But anyway, it's it's just really done a number on

457
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 4: the culture.

458
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the moving into the Romanticist movement,

459
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: I mean it was kind of a rebellion against the

460
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: Enlightenment in some ways, but kind of this getting back

461
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: to nature, this primal state. You can see why it

462
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 1: would be appealing, but this is not the way forward.

463
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: I remember watching Into the Wild, which was a novel

464
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: that they turned into a movie.

465
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 3: Christ was Kristin Stewart and that and Sean Penn or something.

466
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's a different one. This is the

467
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: guy who goes into a goes to Alaska and lives

468
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: in a bus and then dies from berries. Sorry spoiler

469
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 1: alert on that, but you know it's a young man

470
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: who's dissatisfied with the modern world. My sister saw it,

471
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: My younger sister saw it before I did, and she

472
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: was like, Chase, do not go see this movie because

473
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: I'm afraid we'll become this guy. You'll just go into

474
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: the wilderness that never come back. But no, that kind

475
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: of romanticist instinct is very deeply rooted in a lot

476
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: of men to get back into the wild, to get

477
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: back to nature, to prove oneself, and really it reduces

478
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: our experience in life to emotionalism. But it's kind of

479
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: rooted connected with Pietism. So Pietism came up particularly through

480
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: the Moravians, through Germans German Lutherans, and it was kind

481
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: of supposed to be a spiritual renewal, spiritual revival movement

482
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: where people would have a deep, deep experience with God,

483
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: and that is what would really shape Christianity. And it

484
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: really cut itself off from any ecclesial concerns or national concerns.

485
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: It reduced the Christian faith to a private matter and

486
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: made these other concerns very worldly, by which they meant dirty.

487
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: And so Pietism got into kind of the Wesleyan movement,

488
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: so that's methodist ecclesiology and spirituality, but it really got

489
00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: into American revival kind of emphasies throughout the nineteenth century.

490
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: But Pietism still plays out today. A lot of Christians

491
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: think politics is beneath them. They'll use phrases and kind

492
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: of jargon to talk about how politics is dirty, we

493
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: shouldn't get involved. I mean, they'll use misquoted and taken

494
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: out of context versus from Jesus saying his kingdom is

495
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: not of this world and that therefore justifies their apathy

496
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: and passivity when it comes to engaging in cultural war

497
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 1: type issues. And that's a Pietistic emphasis. That's not an

498
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 1: accurate reading of what Christ was saying there. But this

499
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: Pietism plagues many Christians, and it particularly meant it holds

500
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: them back from being agenic creatures, who are powerful, creative,

501
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: who can get things done, who take their dominion mandate seriously,

502
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: who are pursuing glory and all of life, and pietism

503
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: just kind of strips them down to an empty husk

504
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: where the most important thing is that you have some

505
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: kind of emotional experience with God, which, again, as a pastor,

506
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: I want people to encounter the Lord emotionally. I want

507
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: emotions do matter. I want them to be satisfying God

508
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: in all areas of life. But that's simply one aspect,

509
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: not the end all be all. The end all be

510
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: all of the Christian life is not crying in church

511
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: on a Sunday morning because you had this emotional experience.

512
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: The end all be all of the Christian life is

513
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: being found in Jesus Christ and obeying Him and pursuing

514
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: righteousness and everything you do.

515
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

516
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 4: Well, and this is not to be confused with piety.

517
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 4: So pietism is very different from piety, right.

518
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct. Yeah, piety is something we all pursue.

519
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: We want to be pious, meaning we want to obey

520
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: and the Lord and pursue righteousness and holiness in our lives.

521
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: We want to kill sin and put a death to sin.

522
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: This is piety. This is having moral standards, customs, traditions

523
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: that are rooted in the Christian faith. Where we're living

524
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: out the Christian faith day to day, whether it's through

525
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: personal devotion, prayer, all these kind of things. Piety is

526
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing. Pietism is a corruption of that very

527
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: good thing.

528
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 4: And lastly, on this topic, how is evangelicalism a root

529
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 4: of immaterial realism in modern Christianity?

530
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, so evangelicalism, there's two ways to look at it.

531
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: I haven't dumped the word evangelical a lot of people have,

532
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: whether it's for social reasons or whatever. Evangelical is a

533
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: Protestant word that goes back to the Protestant Reformation. It

534
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: simply means, you know what people today might call gospel center,

535
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,239
Speaker 1: so to speak. But were people of the Gospel, were

536
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: people of the good News, the Ewe and Gelion, and

537
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: so evangelical is a historic Christian word, Protestant word. But

538
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: it's also a social movement, a political movement, a socio

539
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: political movement in the twentieth century, and that kind of

540
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: came about after the fundamentalist had to fight with the modernist,

541
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: and there was this kind of merging in the mid

542
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: twentieth century with institutions like Christianity today and Evangelicalism try

543
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: to kind of seek out a third way where we're

544
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: going to, you know, not be the fundamentalist. We're not

545
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: going to retreat into the backwoods and have our churches

546
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: and just have walls up around ourselves away from the world,

547
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: but we're also not going to compromise. At least that's

548
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: how it started. What it morphed into was trying to

549
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: maintain relevancy with culture. So you saw this with a

550
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: secret sensitive movement where a lot of churches they stripped

551
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: the cross down from the stage, they took church out

552
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,239
Speaker 1: of their church name. And just a funny anecdote on this,

553
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: when we started our church, our church was just called

554
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: the Well with very millennial sounding name, you know, and

555
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: like a few years ago, once once we were going

556
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: through kind of a reformation at our own church, I

557
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: was like, we need to make sure on our church

558
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: sign it says church we are the Well Church. Because

559
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of kind of boomer style

560
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: of churches not to critique Boomers, and I love my

561
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: Boomer parents a lot of kind of that secret sensitive mindset.

562
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: Whereas we're going to take the name church, we're going

563
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: to take the name Babbist, We're just going to have

564
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: a generic name like Willow Creek, right, And nobody knows

565
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: what that means, but it seems safer to a non

566
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: Christian audience because non Christian audience thinks church, they think bad.

567
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: So we want to maintain relevance, and they kind of

568
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: prioritize evangelism at the expense of feeding the sheep and

569
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: protecting the sheep. And so this is how a lot

570
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: of Christian mena become a masculated by evangelicalsm itself, is

571
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: because there's there's a certain sense of shame that a

572
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: lot of Christians feel about their own faith and unsteadiness.

573
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: And a lot of these churches you go to, they're

574
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: almost like what's I think the youth call it like

575
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: a pick me girl, like a pick me church. Like

576
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: they seem desperate for people to come, like you go,

577
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: and they have the signs, they hold them up. You're

578
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: welcome here, We're so glad you're here. Oh, here's some coffee.

579
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: What can we do what can we We'll do anything

580
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: just to keep you here. You know, there's a desperation

581
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: and this secret sensitive and to a man, this is

582
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: kind of disgusting behavior. It's very you know, yuck. Like.

583
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: We don't want to be treated this way. You know,

584
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: we want to confident Christian faith, not this kind of

585
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: desperate Christian faith.

586
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 4: It's funny because, uh, you know, my church is Reality

587
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: LA and there's no church in the name. And I'm

588
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 4: just realizing, you know, after you said that, I'm realizing

589
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 4: that's why probably, And and there's churches in LA. Like

590
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 4: there's a church called m you know, and when I

591
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 4: hear that name, I immediately just flee from I'm.

592
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: Just like, this is sounds weird.

593
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 3: Obviously this church is like, you know, and then there's

594
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: like a church I think.

595
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: Called the Core and Zoe and uh or Zoe, I

596
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 4: don't know which one it is. Uh yeah, but all

597
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 4: the I think I think all the churches in LA

598
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 4: are just like these kind of you know, catchy little names.

599
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a weird moment in time where that

600
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: could have been an effective strategy. But when I'm seeing

601
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: I'm a pastor in Boulder, and what I'm seeing is

602
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: I'm encountering a lot of people who don't even know

603
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: uh stories from the Bible, like basic kind of stuff

604
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: that I grew up with, you know, uh, story about

605
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: Noah and the flood. Yeah, I don't know who Noah is.

606
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: It's like, wow, Okay, So you think about you think

607
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: about people looking for a church, you know, uh, they're

608
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: gonna look for something that says church because a lot

609
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: of people just they don't even have categories anymore. And

610
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: so we need to like just be confident that hey,

611
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: we're this way, we're at church. We're not ashamed of

612
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: other Christians. We're not special in the grand scheme of

613
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: things where our church isn't like that unique. We're just

614
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: trying to be the most normal church and Boulder and

615
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: it's really not that hard because there's a lot of

616
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: craziness out here. And so, yeah, it was a very

617
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: interesting strategy for about twenty years. But I think that

618
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: strategy is run its course. We need to get back

619
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: to just like good church names like faithful, understandable, and

620
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: that'll help people connect with God more.

621
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, And in a chapter you call

622
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: meek not weak.

623
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 4: You say the following, if you could comment on this,

624
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 4: You say, meekness is not the absence of power, it

625
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 4: is the presence of mastery.

626
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: Yes, meekness is not the absence of power. So what

627
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people interpret meekness to be is almost

628
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: you have to become a dormat, and you must become

629
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: weak in an inappropriate sense. So when we talk about meanness,

630
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: the illustration I use in the book and elsewhere, as

631
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: we think about a horse being meeked, when you get

632
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: a wild horse, which I've never done, it would be

633
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: very exciting as a man if we lived in the

634
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: West and we could go find a wild horse and

635
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: break it and tame it and meek it. What it

636
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: means is we're not breaking that horse to the point

637
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: where it's unrideable. We're not breaking the horse to where

638
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: it's very spirit is broken, where it loses vitality and

639
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: spiritedness about it. We're bringing it into submission for a

640
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: certain task, for a purpose. The same thing is true men.

641
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: When we call men to be meek, not weak, we're

642
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: calling them to submit their power to God, not so

643
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: that they have no power, but so their power can

644
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: be used under control for God's purposes. And so this

645
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: meek man is a gentleman. He's one who has power,

646
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: knows what power he has, and then uses it prudently.

647
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: So you're going to use your power differently in different situations.

648
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: Is going to be you know, filled with righteous indignation

649
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: at every slight. You're going to reserve that for certain

650
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: sins that are you know, high handed sins against the Lord.

651
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: When you become a parent, you learn how to do

652
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: this as you go. You're learning on the fly, and

653
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: you have to learn how to be meek and how

654
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: to use the power and authority that God has given

655
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: you as a father, particularly in raising children. And so

656
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: for a lot of Christians, they've taken the verse that

657
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: the meek will inherit the earth. They've taken it and

658
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: twisted it to mean the weak will inherit the earth.

659
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: And that's not what Jesus teaches. We should, of course

660
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: be happy to go to the Lord in our weaknesses

661
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: and our struggles. We should go to him in submission

662
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: and repentance where we sin. But that meetness is a

663
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: call to mastery and having control over your appetites, over

664
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: your desires, and submitting all of it to Christ Jesus.

665
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 3: That's good clarification. So yeah, and then a chapter you

666
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: do on work.

667
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 4: It's called do your Job, talk about some of some

668
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 4: of the challenges men face today in terms of work.

669
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, the modern age for men, for many men, is

670
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: deeply unsatisfying. So a lot of the especially my age cohort,

671
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: we were sold opportunities jobs that we would have work

672
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: with kind of a vision of saving up getting to retirement.

673
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: But they were a lot of desk jobs. So it's

674
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: a lot of computer work. And this isn't just true

675
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: for men my age. It's true for a lot of men.

676
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: We're very much tied to devices, to blue screens, and

677
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: we find this deeply unsatisfying. At the end of the day,

678
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: we don't have much to show. Maybe we write a book,

679
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: maybe we had you know, when I got that physical

680
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: book in my hand, I was like, yes, it's actually

681
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: something real and not something just online. And so a

682
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: lot of the online world we live in is deeply dissatisfied.

683
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: It's deceiving because it there's kind of some reward we

684
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: get by sending these emails and text and catching up

685
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: on notifications or whatever may be. But a lot of

686
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: times men will find deeper satisfaction and actual physical work,

687
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: whether it's carpentry, being electrician, whatever it may be. This

688
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: was my first career. My first vocation before I became

689
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: a pastor was for a general contractor. And when I

690
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: worked for the general contractor, they put me behind a

691
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: desk and they're like, you're going to be behind a

692
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 1: desk for the next ten years. And I was like, yeah,

693
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. I'm out. I'm not

694
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: doing that kind of work. And so what happens to

695
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: men is they become unsatisfied and don't understand the purpose

696
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: of work. God design work. It's a prefall reality that

697
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: we're called to work. We're called to tend the garden

698
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: to make the rest of the world look like the

699
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: garden of Eden. The garden of Eden was the divine

700
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: blueprint in which Adam was called to then go exercise

701
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: dominion and subdue the earth and make it like the garden.

702
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: And so work is a prefall reality. But a lot

703
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: of men are hindered because they have jobs that are

704
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: deeply unsatisfying to them. As much as they may make,

705
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: however much they make, they're still trying to get to

706
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: a place where they don't have to sit behind a

707
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: screen all day, and yet this is what a lot

708
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: of guys have been reduced to. And so the challenge

709
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: is not for a lot of guys today, at least

710
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: that I talked to. It's like, look, I'm not asking

711
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: you to just quit your job and give up that

712
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: nice paycheck you've got to provide for your family, but

713
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: I'm encouraging you to get out and get active because

714
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: this sedentary life where you're inactive, you're not working out,

715
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: you're not doing anything with your body. It's handicapping you

716
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: spiritually and as a man. It's not aiding you in

717
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: your quest for glory. It's not helping you achieve greatness

718
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,919
Speaker 1: because you're just lethargic. You're just sitting around all day.

719
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: And we know biologically when we work out, when we

720
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: do things physically, all of a sudden we cheer up

721
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: a little bit. Well, all of a sudden, we have

722
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 1: a body, we can use it, We can be physically active.

723
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: This is why I have my kids in sports, this

724
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: is why I work out. And you won't hear a

725
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: lot about this in church history. You know that if

726
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: you go look up the patristics on weightlifting, there's not

727
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: a lot of insight they're going to offer because most

728
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: of the work was a graririan around them. There were

729
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: outside a lot. It's just simply a modern problem that

730
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: we face with the kind of industrial revolution where a

731
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: lot of work has been reduced to technology. And so

732
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: we don't need to throw off the technology. We don't

733
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: need to become Luddites about it, but we do need

734
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 1: to be mindful of what it's doing to us biologically,

735
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: which is many times making us more depressed, more anxious,

736
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: more lethargic, lacking energy. And so this is why I

737
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: talk about working out in the book and why it's

738
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: so important.

739
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, I ride my bike every day for an hour.

740
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 4: I ride it into Beverly Hills, which is like five

741
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: blocks that way, because it's safer Beverly Hills to ride

742
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 4: your bike. The streets are wider and there's bike paths.

743
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 4: But I mean, I do that every day, and I

744
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 4: work out too, but I but just the process of

745
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 4: doing that every day and riding my bike and getting

746
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 4: out in the sunshine and the air, and it's so

747
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 4: just healthy, not only physically but mentally for me. And

748
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 4: you mentioned horses that I you know, I My fantasy

749
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 4: is to somehow get into a career where where where

750
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 4: I just ride horses all the time. I as a kid,

751
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 4: I rode horses a lot in Texas and it's one

752
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 4: of the most fun, exhilarating things to do is ride

753
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 4: a horse.

754
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: It's great. I'm gonna do that hopefully next week. Yeah,

755
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: I love good riding horses. I think every American male

756
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: should be required we should replace some of the social

757
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: sciences with just equestrian class where you just go ride

758
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: horses for an hour every day in school. I think

759
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: that would be wonderful for people. But yeah, and there's

760
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: a lot of interest today and kind of this alternative health,

761
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: alternative medicine, different theories on you know, what's happened to

762
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: our bodies, whether it's chemicals or food or whatever it is.

763
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: And I think Christianity is not something that we need.

764
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: It's not as Christians we can't speak to this. Actually

765
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: we can speak to it with a lot of authority

766
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: because God made everything. God made everything good by design,

767
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: and so this is why I think the body is

768
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: really important to talk about, because these things do impact

769
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: your life. I think of one social study I read historically,

770
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: I'm what some people would call a cynic. You know,

771
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: I'm kind of given to bouts of melancholy every once

772
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: in a while. I grew up and I was listening

773
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: to emo music. This is known by my friends, but

774
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: I read, Yeah, I read a book by kind of

775
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 1: a secular book, social psychology, on the power of optimism,

776
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 1: and I found this peculiar as a Christian because it's

777
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: not talked about a lot in Christian circles, particularly the

778
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: circles I run in, which has reformed Christianity. A lot

779
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: of the charismatics tend to talk about kind of you know,

780
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 1: having a hopeful spirit, joying Christ. And what the social

781
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: psychologists discovered is that look, having just an optimistic outlook

782
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: that things are going to work out leads to better

783
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: life outcomes. And as Christians, we should be championing that.

784
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: Of course, yes, ultimately, that that satisfaction, that hope is

785
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: only found in Christ and we can promote that, and

786
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: I will promote that to my dying breath, that it's

787
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: Christ who gives us that great hope, that optimist experience,

788
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: not that we're never sad, not that we can't be sad,

789
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:04,959
Speaker 1: but that we should have a great deal of hope,

790
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: and a lot of it is tied to how we

791
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: live our lives. Because if we go to church on

792
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: Sunday and we're preached to to say, have hope and

793
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: Christ have joined Christ. But the rest of the week

794
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: we're just sedentary, we're just sitting around, we're not doing anything,

795
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: it's going to be very hard to experience that joy

796
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: that the Lord has for us.

797
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 3: This was surprise.

798
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 4: I forgot about this, but you in the section called

799
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 4: men must defend. I was surprised. I forgot. I remembered

800
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 4: this happened. But this reminded me when John Piper famously

801
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 4: downplayed the responsibility of men in a now deleted article

802
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 4: from twenty fifteen, where he's you got to explain why.

803
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 4: I can't remember why he said this, but he suggested

804
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 4: that he would not stop an intruder from violating his

805
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 4: home and his wife.

806
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: Correct.

807
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 3: Why did he say? I don't even understand why he

808
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: would say something like that.

809
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of Christian men who wonder about

810
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: these things theologically, and Pastor John is typically great. You know,

811
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: he does ask Pastor John stuff. I've benefited from that.

812
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: So a lot of Christian men are wondering, like, hey,

813
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: you know, based on the love of Christ. Based on

814
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: the teachings of Christ, what does it look like to

815
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: practice self defense? And apparently Piper is a pacifist when

816
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: it comes to these things which most people read this.

817
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: This is like a thing that comes up over and

818
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: over again when people read my book is they're like, wait, what,

819
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: like yeah, not only that Piper isn't alone in that.

820
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: So if you ask a lot of Christian men or pastors,

821
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: this is something that is not one not talked about

822
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: biblically and historically, but often they're kind of dissuaded from

823
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: practicing self defense. People here turn the other cheek and

824
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: they assume the secular line. It's effect to the church

825
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: is that Christians can never defend themselves right, We just

826
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: have to do whatever the enemy wants. And this is

827
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: just a total contortion of what Jesus was teaching. Jesus

828
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: was teaching us how to overlook offenses among brothers. If

829
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: we cause a light for rude, you know, turn the

830
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: other cheek, meaning like, think nothing of it. Not that

831
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: if somebody punches us in the face we have to

832
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: like basically take another punch. That's not the the ethics

833
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: of Christ. And we have duties as husbands as fathers

834
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: to protect those to be willing what Christ said, to

835
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: sacrifice our lives, to put our lives on the line,

836
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: to defend life. And unfortunately, I think Pastor John misses

837
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: the mark. But he's not alone in that. I just

838
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: singled him out because a lot of people know his name.

839
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: But I think this kind of teaching, this contortion of

840
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: scriptures very very common and aready, and it's leaning a

841
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: lot of Christians to have a distaste for righteous, you know,

842
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 1: acts of the state. For example, with the death penalty.

843
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: A lot of Christians don't like the idea of a

844
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: death penalty. They think it cruel or unjust, and they

845
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: think of Christ has been merciful with us, then how

846
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: could we ever authorize the state to put someone to

847
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: death where biblically we see the death penalty is totally

848
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: on the table. In fact, it's part of God's law.

849
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: How it gets applied today is a different story, and

850
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: that's a different topic for another conversation. But that kind

851
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: of distaste that a lot of Christians have for that

852
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: kind of punitive action stems from this kind of mindset

853
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: where it's kind of this demasculinized Christianity where we can

854
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: assert ourselves. We cannot enforce law, and we cannot even

855
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: go so far as to execute those who are deserving

856
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 1: of execution.

857
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just thought of the pastor John.

858
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 3: Thing reminds me of.

859
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 4: A lot offering his daughters to the men of Sodom.

860
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 4: Uh So, yeah, we need to defend. We must defend.

861
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 4: And then the last, well, the last thing I'll get

862
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 4: into is your chapter on It's called find a Failing failingth.

863
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 3: First of all, what is that? What do you mean

864
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 3: by that, find a failings?

865
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, you need a group of guys that you can

866
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: have loyalty and competition among, where you have brotherhood. So

867
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: I'm pulling from you know, ancient Greek army formations, where

868
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: a group of guys have their shields up together, they're

869
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: ready to go. They know what their mission is, what

870
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: they're trying to accomplish. And I think a lot of

871
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: guys are listless today, lacking purpose, direction and meaning in

872
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: life because they don't since they have brotherhood with other men.

873
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: They don't sense a great deal of loyalty. They don't

874
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: even know how they stack up against other guys. They're

875
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: scared to do it, They're scared of rejection, scared to

876
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: be improven, incompetent, whatever may be. And I'm saying, look

877
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: for Christian guys particularly, they need other guys that whether

878
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: it's you know, working on a car, going on a

879
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: bike ride, going on a hike that nobody's ever been on,

880
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: exploring God's creation, starting a business, running for office, whatever

881
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: it is, tackle a project together with other guys in

882
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: form of failings. Find a group of guys where loyalty

883
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: is a virtue, where we display loyalty to one another.

884
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean we're deferential to a point if we're

885
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: not able to tease or do what guys do, joke

886
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. But we have guys that

887
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: have our backs, that can encourage us, that can help

888
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: convict us, that can shape us, inform us. And the

889
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 1: kind of myth that a lot of American men believe,

890
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: Christian men particularly is that we're kind of islands and

891
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: that's by design. And we love in the West individualism.

892
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: I love individualism, that's a very important principle. And yet

893
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: we don't want kind of this utter individualism where you're alone,

894
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: where you have no one else. And a lot of

895
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 1: young men today they've moved a far away from family,

896
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: they've moved to a different city, they don't really know

897
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: where they fit in, and they're just trying to make

898
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: something of themselves. And I'm like, you need to go

899
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: to church. You need to find other brothers who have

900
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: your back, who you trust, who can encourage you, and

901
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: y'all need to work on something together. This typically doesn't

902
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: happen a lot in churches because churches have a particular

903
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: duty and job to accomplish. So you can look to

904
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: church for kind of a friend group for a family.

905
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 1: But sometimes when you go to church, because the church

906
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: itself is feminized, they treat kind of men's studies and

907
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: other small groups and this kind of thing as kind

908
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: of a feminist or feminine kind of endeavor. So instead

909
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: of men finding a FEELINGX, they find kind of a

910
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: sisterhood of brothers where they're just like hearing each other's stories.

911
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 3: How's your heart?

912
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 1: How's your heart? And like that's I understand the intent.

913
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: I don't rebuke men who ask this question of me

914
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: because I love it.

915
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 3: How's your heart? That's a Christian kind of phrase, But

916
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 3: I love it.

917
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 4: But why can't men and young boys go to the

918
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 4: YMCA and the Boy Scouts of America for camaraderie.

919
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that interesting.

920
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 3: I love you to say that.

921
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 4: The YMZA, which was founded in eighteen forty four, it's

922
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 4: neither men. It's neither male nor Christian anymore. So that

923
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 4: doesn't work. The Boy Scouts of America has it's admitting

924
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 4: girls now and it changes its name to Scouting America,

925
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 4: which is great.

926
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 3: So, yeah, there are no safe spaces for men.

927
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: No where can we just be men. You know, my

928
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: grandfather was born in nineteen eighteen and he's passed back

929
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, but he lived in a

930
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: different world where men could get along it whether it

931
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: was country clubs or wherever it was, where it was

932
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: just good to be a man. We could hang out

933
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: with other dudes and it wasn't illegal to do so.

934
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 1: You know, now if you hang with other dudes, people

935
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 1: will give you a side eye, like what are those

936
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: guys doing? They must be up to bad things, And

937
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: it's like no, this is just like a normal part

938
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: of life that guys want spaces where they can be men.

939
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: And we don't want to give into kind of this

940
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: idea that we've got to kind of carve out a

941
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: man cave for ourselves or something like this, like, no,

942
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: we want to assert ourselves, we have opinions, we want

943
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: to form spaces. It's gonna be you have to be

944
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: creative in our day because so many laws have been

945
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: put in place to prohibit this kind of activity, like

946
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: a male only Jim. I think this would be a

947
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: wonderful thing for any Christian men, particularly to avoid any

948
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: kind of temptation or music or anything that kind of

949
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 1: gets in the way of their quest to get fit.

950
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: But if you were to open a gym that was

951
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: men only, you would quickly find yourself in a lawsuit

952
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: because that's illegal. So you've got to come up with

953
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: creative ways to address these issues. But we need men

954
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: to think creatively in our da to help other guys

955
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: find a failings.

956
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, we'll leave it there for now. The book

957
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 4: is Offensive Christianity Restoring the Strength of Men in a

958
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 4: Feminized Age by.

959
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 3: Jay Chase Davis. We'll put the link below. Chase, thank

960
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 3: you for coming on. I appreciate it.

961
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for me all man, glad to be here.

962
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 3: Wait, don't touch that dial.

963
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 4: Please like and subscribe, and also please consider becoming a

964
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 4: patron on Patreon for as little as five dollars a month,

965
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 4: you can really help us out on the show. The

966
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 4: link is below and we so so appreciated.

967
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 3: Thank you.

968
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett

969
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes

970
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: of The Beckett Cook Show are also available on YouTube.

971
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his

972
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 2: website at Beckettcook dot com.

973
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 4: Thank you to the team at Life Audio for their

974
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,959
Speaker 4: partnership with us. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

975
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: you will find more faith centered podcasts about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

976
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:32,479
Speaker 4: and more.