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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, welcome.

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Speaker 1: To this episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer

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Speaker 1: and I am joined today by doctor Cutter Calloway. He

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Speaker 1: is an associate professor of theology and an associate professor

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Speaker 1: of Psychology at Fuller Seminary. Sritten a number of different books,

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Speaker 1: most recent one, i think, is Theology for Psychology and Counseling.

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Speaker 1: And he's also authored a new or really just started

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Speaker 1: a new substack called The Wrong Kind of Christian. And

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Speaker 1: that's how we kind of connected. And so today we're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking a little bit about what he

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Speaker 1: wrote about in his initial post on the Wrong Kind

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Speaker 1: of Christian and probably a few other things.

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Speaker 2: So cut Her welcome to the podcast. Thank you. For

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Speaker 2: being here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, hey, thanks for inviting me on. It'll be fun.

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Speaker 1: I don't meet a ton of people who do the

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Speaker 1: depth of work you've done in two disciplines. So PhD

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Speaker 1: in theology and PhD in psychology.

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Speaker 3: Correct, that is correct? That is correct. Yeah, just brutal,

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Speaker 3: glutton for punishment or something.

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Speaker 1: Right, you finished one and decided to actually go back.

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Speaker 1: It's impressive. I love I love doing interdisciplinary work. So

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Speaker 1: I've read a few of your books in the past

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Speaker 1: and really enjoyed them, and so really great to have

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Speaker 1: you here.

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Speaker 3: Wonderful. Yeah, and I think I told you I got

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Speaker 3: onto your podcast through none other than my mom. So

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Speaker 3: you come with your your name precedes.

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Speaker 1: You, and I have a good I have a good recommendation,

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Speaker 1: I hope. Well, very cool. I've been doing some work

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Speaker 1: and my co host and I who couldn't be here today,

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Speaker 1: but we've been doing some conversations around this notion of

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Speaker 1: biblical manhood, biblical masculinity, and some of the things that

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Speaker 1: have really started to bother me, particularly as my son's

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Speaker 1: gotten into his twenties. Yeah, you know, and just trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out, like, why is it that we're construing

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Speaker 1: biblical masculinity in this way. Had some guests on over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of years that you know, talked about

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Speaker 1: Jesus being a model of masculinity. Didn't quite understand that

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Speaker 1: fully ran across a lot of marked Driscoll's work didn't

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Speaker 1: really resonate with that, and I saw you didn't either,

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Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering if you can, maybe we can

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Speaker 1: start out just what do you think is driving this

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Speaker 1: sort of misapprehension of biblical masculinity, biblical manhood. Why is

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Speaker 1: this emerging at this point? Any thoughts on that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, as with anything, I think it's complex. Right,

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Speaker 3: there's probably multiple streams that are kind of over lapping

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Speaker 3: and historically contingent. I do think there's we could call

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Speaker 3: it an origin story, right, there is a I still

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Speaker 3: believe that evangelicals in the US have are And you'll

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Speaker 3: even hear this with some people that that speak on this.

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Speaker 3: I won't name their names here, but I just listened

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Speaker 3: to part of a podcast of a president of a

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Speaker 3: major seminary and he was talking about basically still responding

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Speaker 3: to the feminist movement, that that that this thing happened,

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Speaker 3: and feminism happened, and it was this great evil and

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Speaker 3: we have to respond to that. And and that response

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Speaker 3: was this like doubling down on how on what I

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Speaker 3: would call traditional gendered roles that that aren't Christian, they're

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Speaker 3: just they're like post industrial Western visions of gender roles.

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Speaker 3: But something was so threatening to let's call it the

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Speaker 3: establishment or mainstream evangelicalism, that there's been an overwhelming response

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Speaker 3: to a number of and you could also include the

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Speaker 3: sort of sexual revolution right of the sixties, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And some of that was legitimate, right, like how do

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Speaker 3: we steward or navigate our sexuality? That's an important conversation

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Speaker 3: to have. But then when it became will you do

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Speaker 3: it by adhering to these like super rigid ideas of

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Speaker 3: both masculinity and then its inverse femininity, that that became

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Speaker 3: the answer to what I think was a perceived threat

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Speaker 3: for fear. Well kind of fast forward, Oh you want

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Speaker 3: to chip in on the no, go ahead, Well, fast

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Speaker 3: forward to the to now. And what I see is

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Speaker 3: there's been you know, an ongoing you get the Promise

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Speaker 3: Keeper's movement and other things where evangelicals still recognize some

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Speaker 3: of the deep sort of loneliness of men. But then

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Speaker 3: also a lot of like sexual dysfunction, and they're going,

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Speaker 3: how do.

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Speaker 2: We what do we do?

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Speaker 3: How do we rally? And again these are good, sincere efforts,

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Speaker 3: but it kind of ended up promoting a vision of

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Speaker 3: masculinity that was again a very sort of what we

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Speaker 3: would now call like mana sphere, sort of bra culture.

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Speaker 3: And then you get to the development of politically in

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Speaker 3: the US, it just happens that all these other thing

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Speaker 3: forces align and now you have people in the name

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Speaker 3: of Christ adopting what I think are some pretty toxic

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Speaker 3: visions of masculinity as if they are Christian, and it's

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Speaker 3: deeply appealing to right now a bunch of really lonely

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Speaker 3: men who are more disconnected than ever, even though they're

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Speaker 3: networked online, and it is really appealing. So the Driscolls

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Speaker 3: of the world the others are speaking to some of

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Speaker 3: those kind of implicit feelings and stoking that kind of

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Speaker 3: energy in a direction that is actually really appealing to people.

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Speaker 3: So I think right now it's that perfect storm of

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Speaker 3: both a history and theological movement and then a moment

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Speaker 3: in time where these sort of technologies and different sort

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Speaker 3: of socio political movements are all kind of aligning.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: I can understand the response too, and I think there's

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Speaker 1: a degree to which, you know, if men are in crisis,

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Speaker 1: or to the extent that men are in crisis in

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Speaker 1: very particular ways, that.

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Speaker 2: Does deserve a response.

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Speaker 1: What I've always just sort of puzzled about is why

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Speaker 1: that response isn't discipleship, why it has to be this.

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Speaker 2: Movement toward machismo.

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Speaker 1: There were a couple of folks that I had on

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Speaker 1: the show that talked about having a big monster truck

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Speaker 1: at their men's rally, and you know, they're trying to

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Speaker 1: get a tank, and I'm sort of sitting there, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a two hundred pound tattooed guy who likes to

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Speaker 1: lift weights going, I have no interest in any of that.

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Speaker 1: I just don't even understand, like how we get to

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Speaker 1: the point where there are certain marks of masculinity that

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Speaker 1: we have to hit, and how we think that's going

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Speaker 1: to be particularly helpful in leading us toward conformative to

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Speaker 1: the image of Christ. It seems to me that we're

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Speaker 1: putting like this cultural screen between us and Jesus and

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Speaker 1: saying this is who he was when he really wasn't that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're asolutely right and in it. I

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Speaker 3: have to stop myself sometimes and not like pull my

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Speaker 3: hair out and go. And part of it is I

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Speaker 3: think I'm kind of riffing here, so I'll deny it

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Speaker 3: if later I think now that wasn't quite right. But

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Speaker 3: I think discipleship is absolutely right. Like that is and

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Speaker 3: what I would call table fellowship, that is the thing

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Speaker 3: that Christian community offers the world. It's essentially a new

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Speaker 3: kind of family. So what Jesus said was not oh

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Speaker 3: my biological camera, who are my brothers, who are my sisters?

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Speaker 3: Those who do the will of the Father? Okay, Jesus

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Speaker 3: offers us like an entirely new vision of what it

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Speaker 3: means to be a family as a single man, by

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Speaker 3: the way, who did not demonstrate any of the sort

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Speaker 3: of machismo that we're describing, and invited people to the

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Speaker 3: table that otherwise would not have been identifiably in those

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Speaker 3: sort of stereotypes either. They were always sort of like

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Speaker 3: against the grain of what the normative vision was in

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Speaker 3: their time. And to me, that is how we might

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Speaker 3: think about Christian discipleship, Like how do I fellowship within

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Speaker 3: the Christian community and invite others in and then what

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Speaker 3: are the things that we do as disciples of this

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Speaker 3: man Jesus, And that, for some reason, even within our

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Speaker 3: Christian churches, is not the path that was chosen. It's

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Speaker 3: this other path when it comes to specifically man. And

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Speaker 3: I've heard back from a lot of women also, they're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: same thing with women's retreats. It's like I don't fit

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Speaker 3: that at all, and they're trying to like tell me

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Speaker 3: I got to do this thing, and I don't. I

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Speaker 3: don't see myself in that at all. And that's where

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Speaker 3: I think you're absolutely right. The diagnosis is, well, it

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Speaker 3: can't be that this came from us, you know, in

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Speaker 3: good faith, following what Jesus did and lived and said.

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Speaker 3: Something else is getting in between, and it can't be.

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Speaker 3: To me, it has to be that's the movement of culture,

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Speaker 3: right that that's where society right now, and certain segments

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Speaker 3: of society, not all of it, but certain segments are

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Speaker 3: saying this is what manhood looks like. And you know,

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Speaker 3: unsurprisingly it skews toward the violent, the oppressive, the the

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Speaker 3: kind of dominating vision. And to me, that's incredibly tragic

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Speaker 3: from a Christian perspective, because of course Jesus was the

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Speaker 3: opposite of all those things, and so I do, along

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Speaker 3: with you sometimes kind of stand back and say where

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Speaker 3: and how did we get to this place? And then

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Speaker 3: maybe secondly, how do we how do we do something

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Speaker 3: about it moving forward? I think that the other thing

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Speaker 3: that we haven't yet given a great vision of a better,

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Speaker 3: more viable alternative, And I think that's kind of what

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm longing for as both a male and then

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Speaker 3: as a Christian brother to my sisters as well.

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Speaker 1: It feels like it's going to take a lot of

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Speaker 1: discipline to do it, because I can even say, even

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Speaker 1: when when Ashish and I my co host, have had

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Speaker 1: these conversations, it's easy to fall into the language of bravado, Right,

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Speaker 1: It's easy to fall back into it because it's sort

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Speaker 1: of in the ether, right, it's the air we're breathing.

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Speaker 1: And so we've we've got to find new disciplined ways

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Speaker 1: of speaking that can convey who we are as disciples

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Speaker 1: and probably who we are as male disciples, but not

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Speaker 1: necessarily over prescribe that for everyone.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you know again, I'm I want to hold

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Speaker 3: out hope that the gathered worshiping community is critical that

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Speaker 3: we're doing something there right the life of the church

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Speaker 3: that we gather together. And then you go, okay, so

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Speaker 3: what is it that we do when we gather together?

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Speaker 3: And is it to express the like the most sort

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Speaker 3: of puerile version of what's in me and celebrate that,

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Speaker 3: or is it to say, how can we create? Because

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Speaker 3: again I'm not like, well, I guess when bring us

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Speaker 3: up the blog that you or the newsletter that you wrote,

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Speaker 3: I've talked about men's retreats, and I'm not against that,

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Speaker 3: like I'm actually quite four, like, how do we get

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Speaker 3: together and hold each other accountable? And you know, these

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Speaker 3: are good things, but it has to somehow start I mean,

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Speaker 3: against your point, it has to be disciplined and has

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Speaker 3: to be a commitment, and you have to be able

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Speaker 3: to allow yourself to be in the presence of people

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Speaker 3: who don't think and look and act just like you.

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Speaker 3: And that I think is one of the underlying issues

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Speaker 3: I mean society wide, but especially with the church right now. Everyone,

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Speaker 3: anytime you have the option to just leave and go

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Speaker 3: do a different church, we've we've inculcated this idea that

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Speaker 3: my fellowship should be comprised of people that are exactly

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Speaker 3: like me like a homogeneous thing, and the moment there's

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Speaker 3: an other, and that's that that discomfort is not okay,

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Speaker 3: it's it's I will not abide it, and so I'm

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Speaker 3: going to go find another place. So there's multiple I

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Speaker 3: think layers of us having to kind of unlearn those habits.

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Speaker 3: But I do think how we teach from the pulpit,

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Speaker 3: how we worship, how we uh sort of liturgically shape ourselves,

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Speaker 3: both in you know, let's say Sunday worship, but then

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Speaker 3: also throughout the week and special occasions. I think that

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Speaker 3: is the formative place where it can happen. And so

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Speaker 3: you could imagine a men's retreat that isn't you know,

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Speaker 3: a bunch of just barbecue and.

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Speaker 2: With the ball.

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Speaker 3: I mean I like barbecue too, like I like it.

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Speaker 3: But it's something about how do we interact with the

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Speaker 3: the sensitive parts of our ourself, the artistic sides of ourself,

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Speaker 3: the the vulnerable, the fragile, the uncertain sides of ourself,

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Speaker 3: and and not just explore them, but but set those

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Speaker 3: up as legitimate, viable, Jesus like parts of what it

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Speaker 3: means to be male. I just you know it the

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Speaker 3: Bravado cells.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's right.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a big shot tank. I mean, like,

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Speaker 3: really was that really? Like they were trying to get

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Speaker 3: an actual tank?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, an actual thank ye.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't. I mean, I've seen

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Speaker 1: them at museums and air shows and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: It's cool, but I don't I don't understand, Like my

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Speaker 1: kids love them, Like I'm almost fifty, I'm good without

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Speaker 1: a tank, yeah, tank or a monster trug. Like, it's

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Speaker 1: just not I'm not a large boy. I like, I

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Speaker 1: don't like those things anymore. And great for the people

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Speaker 1: who do, I suppose, but it's just not a draw

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 3: That's that's a really interesting point. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: you had talked about before or intended it, but it

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Speaker 3: is an incredibly sort of immature vision of masculinity as well.

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Speaker 3: A seven year old boy, Yeah, he's gonna go wrestle

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Speaker 3: and play with tanks and like get in fights and

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Speaker 3: all that stuff. But we're not seven year old boys.

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Speaker 3: And and there's we don't want to shame the seven

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Speaker 3: year old self. We don't want to say that's bad.

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Speaker 3: There's something still in us that is, you know, driven

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Speaker 3: by the testosterone, you know. But again I'm also nearing fifty,

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Speaker 3: so I got a lot less testosterone than I used

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Speaker 3: to do, right, So I'm just like, that's not any so,

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Speaker 3: but that is a yeah as we think through what

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Speaker 3: is to come, that kind of bravado is a deeply

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Speaker 3: immature vision of masculinity, and part of I think what

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Speaker 3: people are longing for is like, what does an actual robust,

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Speaker 3: mature vision look like? And my goodness, it would help

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Speaker 3: if we started with g I think of mapping that out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I have two questions I want

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Speaker 1: to kind of dive into a little deeper, because men's

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Speaker 1: retreats and men gathering together as men to do discipleship

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Speaker 1: I actually struggled with when I started getting into this

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Speaker 1: topic a little bit.

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Speaker 2: At first.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: these things aren't going to always do more harm than

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Speaker 1: they are good. And so sort of where I ended

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Speaker 1: up landing was saying, no, it's really good for men

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Speaker 1: to get together and talk about the cultural expectations of

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Speaker 1: the moment that are putting pressure on them and seeking

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Speaker 1: to hinder them from becoming more like Christ. Because I

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Speaker 1: think that there are going to be those unique pressures

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Speaker 1: on men, just as there would be unique pressures on women. Right,

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Speaker 1: So I'd like that's sort of where I positioned it

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Speaker 1: and said, if men were going to get together, it

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Speaker 1: would be great if they said, hey, these are the

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Speaker 1: things that are really hindering me from.

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Speaker 2: Being a man of Christ.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm being uniquely conformed to this particular

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Speaker 1: culture and its vision of manhood as opposed to a

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Speaker 1: biblical vision of what it means to be a male disciple.

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Speaker 1: Is that how you think of those men's retreats?

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Speaker 3: Like is that a yeah, it's a good question because I've,

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Speaker 3: like you gone back and forth of like, oh, they're

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Speaker 3: just rubbish, stop it, and I'm like, no, that's too

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Speaker 3: that's too quick. Don't feel the baby's bathwater. And again,

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Speaker 3: because I also have multile friends that they really love them, like,

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Speaker 3: it's like they look forward to it, I'm like, man,

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Speaker 3: I just though, so I also wanted to count that it's,

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Speaker 3: you know, doing something for some people. But I do think, yeah,

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Speaker 3: how you frame it, what your intentions are, you know,

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Speaker 3: what the actual content of it is is important. I'd

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Speaker 3: also think, I mean, again, in an ideal world, it

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Speaker 3: seems like you could do a congregational retreat and have

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Speaker 3: different kind of like pathways where you have some time

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Speaker 3: where men get together and talk about those specific things.

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Speaker 3: Women get together to other things. People that have kids

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Speaker 3: and families they get to, you know, like talk about that,

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Speaker 3: and people who are single and try, you know, like

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Speaker 3: all of those different things that we really do overlap.

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Speaker 3: But it'd be good if you, I think if you

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Speaker 3: could imagine a retreat where you're able to engage with

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Speaker 3: each of those issues and those smaller kind of affiliation

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Speaker 3: groups while still recognizing we actually can't have this conversation

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Speaker 3: without our sisters in Christ in the room without you know,

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Speaker 3: so that they too, because obviously the more the reason

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Speaker 3: that they now use the language of toxic masculinity is

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Speaker 3: because it's it doesn't just affect men, it also affects

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Speaker 3: women or vice versas. Yeah, so how do we like

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Speaker 3: It's not simply about how do I, as a man

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Speaker 3: individually navigate this world as a disciple, it's how do

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Speaker 3: all those pressures inform the larger body? So so I

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Speaker 3: think that would be interesting. It's I've also thought through.

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Speaker 3: I have a book on marriage. It's called Breaking the

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Speaker 3: Marriage title, and it actually started in my I don't

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Speaker 3: title my books the publishers I do, but I think

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Speaker 3: I was titled sex Saints and singleness was the first

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Speaker 3: phrase that I was going with, because sex cells baby

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Speaker 3: just like barbecues. And the reason is because we got

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Speaker 3: to this point of going how it really is hard

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Speaker 3: logistically to get married people with kids together with single people,

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Speaker 3: just like I feel bad making my single friends adopt

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Speaker 3: the schedule of my kids, but I don't have a

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Speaker 3: choice as a dad like I have to. So it's

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Speaker 3: actually kind of hard. However, I like, I think again,

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Speaker 3: all these affiliation groups where now you have ministries that

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Speaker 3: are just for single people or just for men, actually

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Speaker 3: prevents us from doing what is actually real world difficult relationship.

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Speaker 3: Christian community is hard. It's really hard, and it's really inconvenient.

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Speaker 3: And it's kind of like when we went through COVID

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Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, people are like, oh, I

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Speaker 3: could just do this online. I don't have it's very convenient.

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Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, and that's terrible, Like that it is

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Speaker 3: so convenient means you don't have to accommodate it, you know,

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Speaker 3: like I no longer have to accommodate these differences, and

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Speaker 3: so I am as with you. I am in a

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Speaker 3: moment of maybe transitions the word these days, but I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking through the value of those isolated sort of affiliation things.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, I don't want to too quickly

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Speaker 3: go there's some I have some perfect like solution that's

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Speaker 3: going to get men in a room, get them feeling

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Speaker 3: like they can talk about things that they know specifically,

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Speaker 3: but then also not have it become what often they become.

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Speaker 3: But I do know, whatever it is, it's difficult, and

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Speaker 3: it requires us to make some sacrifices to actually get there,

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Speaker 3: and it can look messy.

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Speaker 2: Well when we think about Jesus.

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Speaker 1: The conversation that I've had with folks have been interesting,

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Speaker 1: and I would say some of the people I've had

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Speaker 1: back on the podcast again, but also some of the

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Speaker 1: things I've read. So I'll use You mentioned Driscoll in

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Speaker 1: your piece, and you talk about him.

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Speaker 2: I'm reading from it.

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Speaker 1: It says I realized Driscoll is an easy target at

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Speaker 1: this point. He's become almost a parody of himself in

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Speaker 1: the way that he projects his laughably muscular form of Christianity.

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Speaker 1: I read his book Act like a Man. I don't

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Speaker 1: know whether you've ever taken a time now. So here's

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Speaker 1: my question about Jesus, and I think it's informed by

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Speaker 1: some of the ways that Jesus is sort of co

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Speaker 1: opted into this masculinity conversation. There are sections in Driscoll's

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Speaker 1: book where he talks about men expressing emotion and how

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Speaker 1: it's not anti masculine for men to express emotion, and

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Speaker 1: then he talks about Jesus weeping when Lazarus is when

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Speaker 1: he finds Lazarus dead, and he says something like, but

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Speaker 1: he weeps in a masculine way. Now, if we go

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Speaker 1: to the text right and we see Jesus weeping and

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Speaker 1: we see, you know, the other people weeping, it's.

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Speaker 2: The same exact Greek word.

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Speaker 1: There's no descriptive difference in the text, Like we have

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Speaker 1: no clue whether Jesus is how Jesus is weeping. We

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Speaker 1: just know that Jesus is weeping. But in part he

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Speaker 1: leverages that to say Jesus is the penultimate male and

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Speaker 1: shows us what it means to be masculine. And I

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Speaker 1: think my question with that always is and I have

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Speaker 1: a feeling we're gonna have very similar perspectives on this,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know how to tease out when Jesus

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Speaker 1: is showing us how to be masculine and when Jesus

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Speaker 1: is showing us how to be human.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right. And tow it

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Speaker 3: gets even more complicated if you follow that line of

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Speaker 3: logic to say, well, wait a minute, don't aren't women

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Speaker 3: supposed to be conformed to the image of Christ and Jesus? Like,

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Speaker 3: does that mean there do they become men? And actually

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Speaker 3: there's streams of Jewish thoughts. That was basically that, like,

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Speaker 3: you are resurrected as a male, and I'm going taking

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Speaker 3: all the rest of Jesus teaching together. It's like that

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Speaker 3: clearly is just a non starter when it comes to

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Speaker 3: what Jesus. And then later Paul would say, right, so

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Speaker 3: I think yes, to me, that ends up, you know,

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Speaker 3: only knowing what you just told me, so and I

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Speaker 3: trust you. Yeah, that really is an ironic way to

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Speaker 3: say to me. Probably what happened is I'm just putting

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Speaker 3: myself in his second he was he had a thesis,

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Speaker 3: here's here's what it is. And then he's like, ooh,

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Speaker 3: I've got these the counter arguments that are easily thrown

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Speaker 3: in my face. How do I rebutt it, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, it's because Jesus wept masculinely, like clearly

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Speaker 3: that and so but yeah, that's like completely made up.

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Speaker 3: Like in the end, it actually undermines his thing, because

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Speaker 3: in fact Jesus wept, and if in fact he said

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Speaker 3: now again first entry Palestine, I think weeping was also

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Speaker 3: not gendered and was a very normal thing for men

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Speaker 3: to do. We've got to recognize now that it's not

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Speaker 3: is a more recent epimation, but it clearly undermines his

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Speaker 3: point that our gendered stereotypes that emotions are bad are

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Speaker 3: undermined by Jesus. And then he kind of like gives

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Speaker 3: it and then pulls the rug out from under you

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Speaker 3: and say, ah, but actually it reinforces the very gender

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Speaker 3: stereotypes that I'm bringing to the text. So I'm with you.

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Speaker 3: I think that's uh, there's multiple problems with that that exegesis,

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Speaker 3: but especially then the practical application as it concerns men

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Speaker 3: and women. But it is the common thread. I mean,

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Speaker 3: some of the people that have responded to my sub

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Speaker 3: stack initially like they'll go, well, you know King David,

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Speaker 3: he was a warrior, and I was like, yeah, and

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Speaker 3: the Bible's pretty clear about condemning most of his violent,

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Speaker 3: oppressive acts and actually lifts him up for his poetic,

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Speaker 3: sensitive vulnerability. So even there, you're the example, but people

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Speaker 3: really want to press into this warrior strength. I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: cry masculinely and I want to be humble enough to

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Speaker 3: say I want to be able to you know, what

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Speaker 3: is it, iron man your argument and say I want

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Speaker 3: to see really how you're getting there and acknowledge I'm

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Speaker 3: imperfect and I don't have the absolute right interpretation. But

433
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 3: some of these I'm like, it's just not passing the

434
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: SNIF test. That doesn't work in terms of who I

435
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 3: know Jesus to be. And that's just really good example.

436
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, I've seen there's other aspects of Driscoll's

437
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: work that I think are odd in that same way.

438
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: You know, Paul didn't get married because he died too soon,

439
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, those kind of things, and you just sort

440
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: of sit back and you're like, well that he did

441
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: talk about singleness and why he was single.

442
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 2: And we're just going to ignore that.

443
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: Bard Like, but then I go to, you know, maybe

444
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: some more robust theologians, some of the folks in the

445
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: Biblical manhood sort of like John Piper or whomever, and

446
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: I look at their exit Jesus, and I see them

447
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: slipping into this at certain points, like a reading in

448
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: back of that masculinity into it. I can remember one

449
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: of my seminary professors talking to me, or not talking

450
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: to me, talking to the class and telling us you

451
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: should make sure that your wife never makes more money

452
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: than you do. Now that's coming on the heels of

453
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: him telling us most of us will be in rural pastorates,

454
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: and you know, like, we're not going to be making

455
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: much money. And then my wife was pursuing her pharmacy degree,

456
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: and I'm like, she could literally work half halftime and

457
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: make more than you're telling me. I guess I could

458
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 1: as a as a pastor. And so it was one

459
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: of those things where when I heard it, I just

460
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: sort of let it slide past me, like this is

461
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: just one of those weird things. But I know other

462
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: people in the class didn't do that, like they actually

463
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: heard it and were taking it in as really sage advice.

464
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: From someone who'd been there.

465
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: And you just sort of sit back and you're like,

466
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: we're propagating things that are going to ultimately I think

467
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: be unhelpful for people to understand who Jesus is to

468
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: conform to his image. Not practically unhelpful, maybe right, you

469
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: could see that working for some people, but certainly not

470
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: necessary for all people.

471
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I support any

472
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 3: sort of arrangement that spouses want to come up with that.

473
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, and there's all sorts of difference,

474
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 3: and I have because I, you know, was shaped by

475
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 3: similar kinds of thinking. It's even I'm often hesitant to

476
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: let people know my wife does all of our budgeting

477
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 3: like she runs she is our families like accountant. And

478
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: that is good because I have ADHD and I would

479
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 3: bankrupt us if I managed our finances just flat out.

480
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 3: I you know, before we got married, I did not

481
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: have a nice checkbook. I'm like, I think I got

482
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: about one hundred bucks, you know something. And but but

483
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 3: even that, and then also she's been at home for

484
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: the last decade because of our kids. But it's going

485
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: to go back into the workforce and easily can out

486
00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: earn me, like just easily, and having to like even

487
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: attempt to prevent her from doing that or to justify

488
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 3: it to others as if we're somehow a non you know,

489
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 3: Jesus approved the couple, Like, it's just I don't understand that,

490
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 3: and and so I do think though another as I

491
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: you asked, like, why is this so attractive? Yeah, I

492
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 3: can read it both in uh, you know, a what

493
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: would you call it? A sort of deconstruction this way

494
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 3: and then also a theological way if you just basic

495
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 3: kind of uh, how do we trying to not say

496
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 3: certain words that will trigger people? If you think about

497
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: it in terms of power dynamics, it makes sense that

498
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: the people who are in power would make interpretations and

499
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: teachings and policies that would reinforce that power so that

500
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 3: they keep it and do anything in their power to

501
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: ensure those who might threaten that cannot threaten them. And

502
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: so on that side, I go, there is a lot

503
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: that men, even Christian men, Christian men who are leaders,

504
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: a lot they have at stake if in fact they

505
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: don't reinforce this very domineering head of everything, vision of masculinity,

506
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: who controls the budget, controls the finances, cannot cannot handle

507
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: the idea that a spouse would make more like, because

508
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 3: that's all a threat. And I'm sure you've talked about

509
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: this in others that it's like, actually, women in power

510
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 3: are only a threat to mediocre men. That's who's a

511
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: threat to If you're actually a confident, well qualified, capable man,

512
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: having a strong capable woman, either as a spouse or

513
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 3: a college or something, not a threat at all. Right,

514
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 3: And so it's interesting that you get I don't want

515
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: to call them all mediocre, but it helps for the

516
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: mediocre of our of our agender to instill that kind

517
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: of power dynamic at every level of the institution. Theological

518
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: side I've been thinking through, which I find strangely tone

519
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: deaf or ironic or just again bad Exto Jesus, is

520
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: that the the lordship over women, the dynamic of that

521
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 3: power or that power dynamic is directly related to the

522
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 3: fall biblically right, and yet it's held up as the

523
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: way that God designs. Yeah, like wait, no, that's a

524
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: you are replicating the results of sin entering the world

525
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 3: when you prop that up as the ideal. And I

526
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 3: don't for some reason, it doesn't seem that people kind

527
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 3: of go there. It just you know, goes to Ephesians

528
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 3: or wherever, which I think is also a bad Exo Jesus,

529
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 3: but still I find that interesting that that theologically it

530
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: makes sense that broken men would leverage their biological strength

531
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 3: and power to ensure they always have access to power

532
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: and that's not threatened. And so I think both in

533
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: a theological way, I go, that's that is, I think

534
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 3: a reflection of sin, what I would call the sort

535
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 3: of sinful structures that we inhabit. And it's also I

536
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: think ideologically you can read it as a sort of

537
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: power imbalance that the powerful will always try to wield it.

538
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: I had I don't even ever read her stuff on this,

539
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: but Caitlin Batty wrote a series of articles on Substack,

540
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: the evangelical bro Code.

541
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: Are you familiar with these?

542
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: Oh? I don't know if I read that one, but

543
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: I know I love Kate and LEAs. She's great.

544
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So she was on and we were talking about

545
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: the evangelical bro code, and you know her her ideas

546
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: that within Christian organizations, men take care of men, and

547
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: so there's this bro code in the organizations and if

548
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: you're a if you're a guy, you know, you you

549
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: kind of get special treatment. The idea, I'm one of

550
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: the one the one of the conversations I remember is,

551
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: you know, because the men are afraid of falling into

552
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: sexual sin, they won't meet and mentor women, and so

553
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: then the men get special treatment.

554
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: And it's sort of this.

555
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: Weird structural problem within organizations. And I sort of looked

556
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: at her work and thought to myself, I agree with

557
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: everything she's saying pretty much about what it does to women,

558
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: but it also does really horrible things to men. Like

559
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: this is holding both of holding everybody back, because it's

560
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: not creating that sort of context of challenge and pushing

561
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: people forward, helping them understand who they really are, what

562
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: their capacities are, what their limits are, you know, where

563
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: they need to improve. You're not showing any of that

564
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: when you fall into these sort of bro code moments.

565
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: And I think that there's a sense in which a

566
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: lot of this sort of bravado and masculinity that we're

567
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: seeing in the church now is going to privilege a

568
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: segment of men who probably are shouldn't be in charge,

569
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: that are are leaning into immaturity really in order to

570
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: assert themselves. The interesting part that I think they're bringing

571
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: up sort of that theological side, is that sometimes.

572
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: There's a.

573
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: There's a real academic or biblically faithful air that is

574
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: used to sort of prop that up. And I know

575
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: you've kind of written on the SBC. I don't necessarily

576
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: want to go into that unless you're comfortable with it.

577
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: But I'm kind of starting to see certain connections that

578
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: I didn't see before. Right when I look at just

579
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: the straight complementary and egalitarian debate, you sort of sit

580
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: back and go, Okay, well choose either one. You know,

581
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: the complementarian isn't necessarily you know, engaged in this sort

582
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: of misogynistic bit. The egalitary isn't necessarily into this feminist

583
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: ideology kind of stuff. But I think coming at it

584
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: from this angle of, you know, Biblical manhood as sort

585
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: of machismo and as sort of bravado, it's hard not

586
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: to begin seeing that and some of what's going on

587
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: in the SBC right now.

588
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And so I don't know, I don't know

589
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: whether you want to comment on that or not.

590
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh see if I can pack. So, I think

591
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 3: you're right. And and for the record, there are non

592
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: misogynistic complementarians. I mean that's just true, one hundred percent.

593
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

594
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 3: Good, just if anyone's listening. In another substack, author and

595
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 3: friend of mine, Danny Treewick is actually Australian theologian and

596
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: she has a couple of books on singleness but she

597
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: that are really great and her substack is good. But

598
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: she's been writing the last couple of weeks on what

599
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 3: it's like to be a complementarian, right woman right now? Right?

600
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 3: So she's Yeah, so she's person that I think you

601
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 3: could trust if you want to kind of go that rout. However,

602
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 3: specifically with the SBC and the newsletter that I wrote

603
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 3: on it was I think it's telling if all we

604
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: had with the SBC was their move to exclude women

605
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 3: from not just the title of pastor, but from even

606
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 3: functioning in any sort of role, which I still practically

607
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 3: don't know how that's going to happen, Like they'll just

608
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 3: have to stop maybe going to church, I don't know.

609
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 3: But Okay, if that's all you had, you could go. Well,

610
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 3: maybe the charitable read of that is they really are

611
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 3: just sincerely trying to enforce their interpretation of scripture that

612
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: they really do think men should exclusively be in these roles,

613
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 3: and like, sorry, that's what it says, right, okay, But

614
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 3: where I go not so fast is they're ecclesiology. This

615
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: gets back to where it's like these conflicting theologies, they're

616
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: a theology already demands of them that they cannot they

617
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 3: being the convention, cannot dictate to local congregations their decisions

618
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 3: about this. That is like a distinctly Baptist thing for

619
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 3: theological reasons that Baptists throughout history have said. Now, some

620
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 3: Baptist churches, and many of them did not ordain women,

621
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 3: but some could, And I mentioned in that article minded

622
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 3: the ones that I was a part of. So if you,

623
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 3: on number one, you have to violate your own ecclesiology

624
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 3: to come up with this decision to marginalize women, that

625
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: raises a red flag. And then the doubly raises a

626
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: red flag when in the same calendar year they invoked

627
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 3: that ecclesiology meaning we're all autonomous congregations to say we

628
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 3: can do nothing about sexual predators who might be pastors.

629
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to me. That is an impossible thing to

630
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 3: reconcile and to come to me and go, we are

631
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: operating here in good faith. I'm going over here, you're

632
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 3: protecting your bros. And over here you're getting rid of

633
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 3: all the people that would actually call to account the

634
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 3: violence and oppression that those bros are engaging, and in

635
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 3: fact that is the case. It was predominantly women in

636
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: the SBC saying we've experienced all of this sexual assault

637
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: and violation and predation. We need to do something about it.

638
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: And at the same and the same breath, they made

639
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: both of those decisions. And to me, that's getting to

640
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 3: your point of that is harmful not only for women

641
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 3: and for children, but that does something too, And not again,

642
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: not all of the call it the bro.

643
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 2: The bro code, bro code, bro code, broke.

644
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 3: I'm not saying everyone bro code is a sexual predator,

645
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 3: not that, but including them or any of the other

646
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: sort of distorted visions of masculinity that get animated protected,

647
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 3: no one's calling him to account, no one's holding them accountable.

648
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: As supposedly every Men's Retreat is supposed to do right,

649
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 3: like that's what it's supposed to do, but in fact

650
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 3: it's doing the opposite. And I often, well not often,

651
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: I often think about this, but I don't know if

652
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 3: I've said it out loud, because I was trying to

653
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: work it into a stand up bit and I haven't

654
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: quite got there. But the bro code, the manisphere reminds

655
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: me a lot of the original Jurassic Park or any

656
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 3: any movie address park. It's like, hey, remember remember that

657
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: apex predator a long time ago that kind of like

658
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,959
Speaker 3: went extinct, but it just slaughtered everything in its wake.

659
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: What if we what if we brought that back but

660
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: added modern technology. Wouldn't that be awesome? It's like wait,

661
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 3: what No? And that's what it feels like in the

662
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 3: in the manisphere. It's like, all of a sudden, someone's like,

663
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 3: let's bring back the apex, like classically horrible male and

664
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: just give them technology and it's gonna be right.

665
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 2: And I'm like let him explode.

666
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and I'm just like no, It's what's gonna

667
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,959
Speaker 3: happen is the velociraptor is gonna get out. It's gonna

668
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: go nuts. And you know, like that's where it feels like.

669
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 3: Often of that kind of the bro code is really

670
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 3: like engineering something that that is really destructive and again

671
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: filled with all sorts of in many cases, sincere people,

672
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: And that I think is my It's and like I

673
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 3: said with Driscoll and others, it's easy to kind of

674
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: like go to the extremes and say but it's it's

675
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: all of the like middle ground of people that are

676
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 3: essentially doing the same thing that have I think the

677
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 3: greatest impact on most of us.

678
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: Agreed, And I appreciate your disclaimer. It's an innocent, appropriate

679
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: disclaimer about like this isn't a blanket statement about anybody who.

680
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: Holds a very particular position.

681
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: It's not even a blanket statement about somebody who's in

682
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: the SBC or whatever. But I do get your point

683
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: about these two decisions that are made, one being we

684
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: can't we can't do anything about the sexual predators because

685
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: of our ecclesiology. The other is, but we can't do

686
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,439
Speaker 1: something about women being ordained. And you go, there would

687
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: have been some level of you could almost claim a

688
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: level of theological seriousness if they'd have done both. And

689
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: you're saying, yes, these things are if they're sitting back

690
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: going these are both worth us violating our ecclesiology to

691
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 1: get done.

692
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: Yep, right, it's not happening at the local level.

693
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: We're going to violate our ecclesiology and make these two

694
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: things happen. You could kind of sit back and go, hey,

695
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: fair enough theological conviction. You know, appreciate your seriousness. I

696
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: disagree with the one I agree with, you know, but

697
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: where it's so uneven in that application, it just really

698
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: feels very strange. And they almost had to have known

699
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: that they would have been questioned on this. It just

700
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,959
Speaker 1: I don't see how they would have sat back and said,

701
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: we'll make these two very divergent, you know, decisions, and

702
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 1: and I'm sure everybody will just miss that fact.

703
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, that's the hope. I mean, I think

704
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 3: that's often the hope is like we're moving on, you know,

705
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 3: there's gonna be another thing that people are worried about.

706
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 3: And and and when asked, I mean, the the you know,

707
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: Executive committee basically is like, that's not our concern anymore,

708
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 3: you know. And so it's like that that was the

709
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: response when asked of like wait a minute, what and

710
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 3: and had been passed and approved prior, like they committed

711
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: to doing it. And so yeah, that that is my

712
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 3: at least when I go into critique it. I think

713
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 3: that's my most generous critique. That somebody replied going saying

714
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: I'm assigning motive and being uncharitable. I'm like, well, okay, maybe,

715
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 3: but all I have are their actions, and here's the

716
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: consequence of their action. And I'm not trying to be uncharitable,

717
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 3: but I actually think it's incredibly consequential. And I'm not

718
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: going to sort of pull punches because someone thinks I'm

719
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 3: lacking charity by calling those things out.

720
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: But I don't think pointing out an inconsistency is uncharitable.

721
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: It's just it's an inconsistency, and so here it is.

722
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: I think.

723
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: Ashiesh and I talked a little bit about the sort

724
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: of notions of masculinity in relation to bond servants in

725
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: the Bible. Obviously, bond servants there could have been a

726
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: mix of men and women there, But there would have

727
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: been a mix of men and women there, and so

728
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: there would have been men, and so you have to

729
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: ask yourself how to the instructions of bond servants advance

730
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: them toward any sort of notion of masculinity that is

731
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: now being put forth as a biblical masculinity. They're not

732
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: told to enlarge their dominion. They're not told to, you know,

733
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: revolt against their masters. They're told to live lives of

734
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: subservience because God is the ultimate judge there. They are

735
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: to live peaceably to show respect to their masters. These

736
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: are not things that you tend to get emphasized in

737
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: modern notions of biblical masculinity. You know, you sort of

738
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: picture you referenced Braveheart in one of your articles here,

739
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: and those stack and it's like, you know, the Scots

740
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: are revolting, and we find some heroism in that, and

741
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: it's a great movie, and so we watch it and

742
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: we have a lot of fun with it, but it's

743
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: not conveying a biblical teaching.

744
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just fun to watch, right, Yeah.

745
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I think those inconsistency I guess my

746
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: point is, I think a lot of these have these inconsistencies,

747
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: and if it if it starts to become uncharitable for

748
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: us to point those inconsistencies out, there's just going to

749
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: be a reified, you know, notion of what these things

750
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: are that can never really be called.

751
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And you know, classic in

752
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: the history of you know, male masculinity and evangelicalism, since

753
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 3: we're naming names and Emerger School. I where I first

754
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: consciously realized like, oh, this isn't for me was reading

755
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 3: John Eldridge's Wild at Heart and he explicitly says that

756
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 3: a Christian man should be William Wallace, not a mother

757
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 3: Teresa and I was like, wait what, I'm like, okay,

758
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 3: I'm tracking with you, Like, isn't William Mallas courageous and

759
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 3: you know, and especially at that time in my life,

760
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. But then

761
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 3: to like take are like a saint, a literal living saint,

762
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: and say a Christian man shouldn't see her as a model,

763
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 3: and it's like, I don't. I was like, oh, I see,

764
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 3: this is not a conversation I'm allowed to be a

765
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: part of anymore. And I do think in the United

766
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 3: States in particular, this gets back to, you know, as

767
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,959
Speaker 3: we talk about sin or structural stuff, the proa code

768
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: and how that I my my read of Paul's you know,

769
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 3: rescuing against not flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. Yeah,

770
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 3: I don't read that as they are some little disembodied

771
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 3: spirits that are running around attacking us. I think it

772
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 3: is these higher order, sort of emergent properties of any

773
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 3: organization that actually operate outside of human control. It's anytime

774
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 3: humans get together and organize, there's becomes this thing. And

775
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've experienced this others have. Where you go.

776
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 3: I'm at a church, I'm at a business, I'm at whatever,

777
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: and it's like, man, if I picked all these individuals

778
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 3: and we went and started something on our own, it

779
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 3: would look nothing like this. It's like we're we're almost

780
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: victims to the machine that's making it. And I think

781
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 3: one of the machineries of the sort of social imaginary

782
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 3: of Americans writ large. But then American Christians is deeply militaristic.

783
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 3: And it makes sense like we're about to celebrate the

784
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 3: two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of America, right and and

785
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 3: and it's based in like our successes in wars. It's

786
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 3: we have the biggest military out there, like this vision

787
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 3: of what it means to be. And in the past,

788
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 3: we were always on the side of the good, right,

789
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 3: Like it was that equals good and so holding up

790
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 3: people like a William Wallace holding up people like you know,

791
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: I mean, well, Mel Gibson was in the Patriot, He's

792
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 3: been in a bunch of like war moves like ah,

793
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: and again I'm a sucker for it. I'm like, yeah,

794
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 3: go go Mel. But that has so informed, I would

795
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 3: even say infected the way we understand not just the good,

796
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 3: but male Christian sort of visions of masculinity. What we're

797
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 3: called to do. It's back to that's why we're trying

798
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 3: to find a tank to come to a thing, because

799
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: it's it's almost inseparable as Americans, this idea that William

800
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 3: Wallace is actually a better paradigm than Mother Teresa, and

801
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 3: it's it's unsettling. I actually think it's sub Christian deeply.

802
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: But it is the powerful currents I think that we're

803
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 3: operating in. And that's why I describe it really as

804
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 3: a the powers and principalities that we need to wrestle with,

805
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 3: and that those are hard, they're hard to get at,

806
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 3: they're hard to unpack, they're hard to undo and unlearned

807
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 3: because they're so deeply entrenched and just the background conditions

808
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 3: of how we operate.

809
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: I agree.

810
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: I think that those powers and principalities yield then different

811
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: temptations for men and women.

812
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: And often what I see happening is.

813
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: As we interact with those, especially as biblical exegetes or

814
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: culture critics or theologians interact with these things, there's this

815
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: sort of subtle confusion between what a man needs to

816
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: do to avoid a certain power and principality in the

817
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 1: moment and what it means to be masculine.

818
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 2: You know, it's like these things are, they're.

819
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: Tied together and confused, and so I use the We

820
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: live near Saint Louis, and I always use this illustration.

821
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: But when we drive into Saint Louis, we have to

822
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: pass what I call strip club Row. It's these three

823
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: lines of strip clubs, and I always think, I'm like,

824
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: it's interesting to think about this because what the advice

825
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: I would give my son about those strip clubs is

826
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: very different than the advice I would get my daughters

827
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: about those strip clubs, right, because there's not a shot

828
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: in the world that I think my son is going

829
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: to end up dancing in one of those clubs right now.

830
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: I don't think my daughters are going to end up

831
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 2: there either.

832
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: But you know, they have this billboard that says school

833
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 1: loans got you down, We're always hiring, and so you

834
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,479
Speaker 1: just look at that and you go, yeah, they won't

835
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: end up in that strip.

836
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 2: Club, right.

837
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: But these social pressures, these economic pressures, yield different opportunities

838
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: for women than they do for men, and that has

839
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: to be brought out at some point. But I don't

840
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: think that has anything to do with masculinity and femininity.

841
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: I think that has to do with the way these

842
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: powers and principalities structure us into these sort of moments

843
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: and pressure us to do things that we shouldn't be doing,

844
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: that are that are dehumanizing in ways and so.

845
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: And not in doing what we consciously don't want to do.

846
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

847
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 3: It's also it's a really good example because there's both

848
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 3: that that, like, we're all very particular, concrete people, that's right,

849
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 3: are pressured in different ways by even this inhabiting that

850
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 3: same system or space. It's also the case that in

851
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 3: sort of the evangelical past, the answer for Christian sort

852
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 3: of discipleship is begins in ends with what does your

853
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 3: son do and what does your daughter do? To avoid

854
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 3: that temptation to you know, be the kind of person

855
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 3: that says, no, okay, that's good, that's a good thing.

856
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 3: But also Christian discipleship is to address the underlying material

857
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 3: conditions that allow sex work to be a viable theory.

858
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 3: And we can't so we've shifted so much to the

859
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 3: personalized thing that we've forgotten like, oh wait, shouldn't we

860
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 3: address the societal structures that we've set up that enable

861
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 3: this in the first place? Yeah, it's both and obviously

862
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 3: both of those and that's I think when it gets

863
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 3: to masculinity, why we need to think in both terms,

864
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 3: like how is your son affected by this, and how

865
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 3: does he think through the shaping forces of that, and

866
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 3: then how do we all collectively go, well, wait a minute,

867
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be this way, Like we can

868
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 3: actually address some of those structures if we think systemically

869
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 3: about them.

870
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, my son's doing his bachelor's in history and theology

871
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: right now in Saint Louis, and one of the things

872
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 1: we've talked about, he had a class where they talked

873
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: about sex trafficking, those kind of things, and I just said, yeah,

874
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: obviously sex trafficking is horrible, like it needs to be curtailed.

875
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: But I said, we've got these forms that we've become

876
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: callous to that exist all around us, right, And it's

877
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: not just the strip clubs, it's internet pornography, it's these

878
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: kind of things. And I'm like, we have to cultivate

879
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: a sensitivity to all of these things and an aversion

880
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: for all of these things, because all of these things

881
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: are deforming us as humans. I don't think that's a

882
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: good context in which to say you know, if you

883
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: you know, to be a real man, you're pushing against

884
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 1: these things, right, this is a generative moment for you son,

885
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:47,439
Speaker 1: be masculine, you know, push these things out right. It's

886
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: got to be that moment where we say, look at

887
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: the way that our culture has decided that these things

888
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: are good and true and beautiful in ways that God

889
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: would never ever determine.

890
00:51:58,000 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 3: That.

891
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: Like, they've been accepted and pulled into our culture in

892
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: ways that they just shouldn't be. That's not a masculine conversation.

893
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: That's a discipleship conversation. It's a and you become complicit

894
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: in it.

895
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm I'm reading, you know, with the masculinity

896
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 3: side of things, the number of women that are proponents

897
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 3: of being traadwives and like wanting to give up, you know,

898
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,720
Speaker 3: all sorts of stuff. And there they are asking themselves,

899
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 3: how do I operate within this system in a way

900
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 3: that I can survive? And here's how I'm justifying. So

901
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 3: it's like the wait that means you seed all of

902
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: these things that I don't think you want to want

903
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 3: to do. And so yeah, it's that that's where it's like, Okay,

904
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: we can talk about masculinity but it of course is

905
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 3: how does this affect us as a community, as a

906
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:49,359
Speaker 3: human society, because it always has those implications. And yeah,

907
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 3: I think in each of those different conversations, as we

908
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 3: can think about, yeah, what does it mean to be human?

909
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 3: And then how do our different particular bodies call us

910
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 3: to faithful discipleship and light of that vision of humanity

911
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 3: which runs again, if we think christianly about it, not

912
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 3: just Jesus, but Jesus is the second person, the trinity.

913
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 3: It runs toward people in relation, Like, there's no sense

914
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 3: in which my discipleship is detachable from the people that

915
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 3: I'm in proximity to, and so it has to somehow

916
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 3: account for both of those. Otherwise, yeah, we just perpetuate

917
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 3: those same structures that are harming us.

918
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you've written on entertainment and technology and movies

919
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: and all that kind of good stuff. You've written on

920
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: psych and this will We're getting close to the end,

921
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: so I want to I'll make this our last question.

922
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: But how do you I mean, given everything that we've

923
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: got going on right now, there's a lot happening, how

924
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: do you think we need to start re rooting ourselves

925
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: so that our identity is is more tied to the

926
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: local church. Obviously our identity needs to be in Christ.

927
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: But in the concrete sort of let's love our neighbor,

928
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: let's do this thing in our community, let's you know,

929
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: let's be together as Christians.

930
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: What do we need to do to get back there?

931
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: Other than just hey, do it?

932
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know that is part I mean, like, you know,

933
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 3: I teach in a seminary and I'm always like, it's tragic. Actually,

934
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 3: we now have a huge online student body, which is

935
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 3: very different than it was, say, fifteen years ago. Yeah,

936
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: and so a benefit of that is a larger percentage

937
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 3: of our students are still connected to their local congregations. Yea, right,

938
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 3: because in the past it's like, man, the number of

939
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 3: seminary students that weren't going to church is like, guys,

940
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 3: this is scandalous, Like you're sitting for ministry and you're not.

941
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: You know, so part of me does like I guess,

942
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 3: stop and go Okay, it's not as simple as just

943
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 3: go do it. But I do think the current moment

944
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 3: we're in, there are very few places or resources or

945
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 3: even it's not incentivized anywhere to do what a lot

946
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 3: of people call conflict transformation or transformative conflict. And I'll

947
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 3: often say, like graduate school just is this process where

948
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: you are exposed to all sorts of ideas that are

949
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 3: not yours and conflict with yours and challenge yours. And

950
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 3: your job is not to like run away in chaos.

951
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 3: It's it's to say, Okay, how do how do I

952
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 3: account for them responsibly? How do I humbly accept you know,

953
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 3: sometimes correction, but then also not, you know, like you

954
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 3: don't have to accept everything, but come back to maybe

955
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 3: original position even stronger and more convicted in light of

956
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 3: this sort of stuff. So the whole process is this

957
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 3: process where you sit with the dissonance of different perspectives,

958
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 3: because that's what what we would call education is, that's

959
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 3: what growth is, that's what you transformed, renewing of your

960
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 3: mind is. And so I think to say simply just

961
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 3: go back to church, but I think it's a kind

962
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 3: of way of going to church. Maybe been riff on

963
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 3: Kennedy right, Ask not what your church can do for you,

964
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 3: ask what you really that like, think about it as

965
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 3: an opportunity to encounter and expose yourself to the breadth

966
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 3: and variety of the Christian faith. That means you have

967
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 3: to find a kind of church to do that. But

968
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 3: I really think that's the key to how we're going

969
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 3: to move forward as as a community. You know the

970
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 3: Big Sea or I guess Little Sea church, but all

971
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 3: the churches. The only other thing too that I say is,

972
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 3: you know, the if it's the bro code and all

973
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 3: the stuff, we also have inherited this tendency to basically

974
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 3: cut people off and remove each other from community when

975
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 3: we get to those times of conflict, like I'm disowning

976
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 3: you whatever, and that usually involves a kind of demonizing

977
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 3: of this other side that is ultimately unhelpful, even if

978
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 3: it's right, even if you like have a read on them.

979
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 3: And from the psychological perspective, a big part of I

980
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 3: think the shift that needs to happen is instead of asking,

981
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 3: and this is like trauma informed therapy, but instead of

982
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 3: asking a person like what's wrong with you, to ask

983
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 3: what happened to you? So when I go into and

984
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 3: it's hard for me to do, but when I go

985
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 3: into a conversation with someone who's you know, they're part

986
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 3: of the bro code, instead of just going like I

987
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 3: already know everything about your perspective and why you're there,

988
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 3: to rather say, Okay, what are the deeper fears, anxieties, experiences,

989
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 3: longings underlie this conviction that you've arrived at unless I

990
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 3: can somehow articulate that or get to there, like having

991
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 3: a higher level, you know, conversation about how rational their

992
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 3: thoughts are is totally irrelevant unless I can get it

993
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 3: that sort of deep, almost intuitive, maybe inarticulate sensibility that

994
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 3: this ideology, this perspective is actually addressing. And so that

995
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 3: I think is we can say we're going to be

996
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 3: around difference all we want, but until we can learn

997
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 3: come back to going like, actually am curious about where

998
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 3: you're coming from as opposed to I'm here to like

999
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 3: convince you to stop being an idiot. That I think

1000
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 3: is that would be my first step, and it's been

1001
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 3: really hard, but it is I think cool.

1002
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 1: Now it's really helpful advice. Well, thank you again, Cutter

1003
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: for being on the show. I think we've covered plenty

1004
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: of ground and hopefully folks enjoyed this. I just encourage

1005
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 1: everybody to check out the substack, you know, cuttercallaway dot

1006
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: substack dot com. It is the wrong kind of Christian

1007
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: is what you can search and google and then I'll

1008
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: put the link obviously in the show notes.

1009
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 2: But anything else you'd like to route people to cut her.

1010
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 3: No, you can go. There are my websites Cuttercallaway dot com.

1011
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 3: I got a book coming out on the horror genre.

1012
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 3: So again Ron kind of Christian nice engaged in horror.

1013
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, that book's come out in September, so if

1014
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 3: you want to check it out, you can find all

1015
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 3: that info on my website. But Cutter with a K,

1016
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 3: Callaway with a C.

1017
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: Cool.

1018
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: I I got the opportunity, just a dovetail on your horror.

1019
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: I got the opportunity to write an essay in theology

1020
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: religion in the office. It was a volume on the

1021
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: TV show The Office.

1022
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 2: Super fun. I love that anytime. Yeah it's out.

1023
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 3: Oh good, I'm gonna pick that up. I love The Office.

1024
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 3: That's great.

1025
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah anytime you you know your research involves just rewatching

1026
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: horror movies or old series, It's like, this is the

1027
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: best job ever.

1028
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 3: It is. I totally agree, totally agree.

1029
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 1: Are well, Thanksgiv for being here, man, thanks ever for

1030
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: everybody for listening, and we will catch you on the

1031
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian Take care. I just want

1032
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: to take a second to thank the team at Life

1033
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast.

1034
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens

1035
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got

1036
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.