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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to your hope filled perspective for part two

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Speaker 2: of our compelling conversation with John Seidel, author of Confessions

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Speaker 2: of a Christian Alcoholic, a candid conversation on drinking, addiction

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Speaker 2: and how to break free. If you missed part one,

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Speaker 2: I encourage you to go back and listen because John

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Speaker 2: vulnerably shared how he, as a Christian leader, found himself

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Speaker 2: entangled in the grip of alcohol addiction. In today's episode,

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Speaker 2: we're going to pick up right where we left off.

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Speaker 2: We're going to dive deeper into John's road to recovery,

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Speaker 2: what breaking free actually look like, and how others can

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Speaker 2: find lasting hope for their own battles with addiction, shame,

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Speaker 2: and secrecy. John doesn't just tell a story of struggle,

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Speaker 2: he gives us a roadmap for surrender, accountability, and freedom

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Speaker 2: through Christ. Whether you're facing your own entanglement are walking

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Speaker 2: alongside someone who is, Today's episode is packed with truth, grace,

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Speaker 2: and the kind of hope that transforms lives. We're going

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Speaker 2: to dive right into part two after this brief word

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Speaker 2: from our sponsor. Welcome back to your hope filled perspective.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited because author John Seidel is back for

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Speaker 2: part two of our conversation. He's been telling stories his

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Speaker 2: whole life. He's written over ten thousand of them. First,

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Speaker 2: after helping start a successful news website. Then he was

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Speaker 2: editor in chief of a popular nonprofit I Am Second.

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Speaker 2: Now he's the author of this new book where he

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Speaker 2: shares vulnerably about his own struggle and how he found help, hope,

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Speaker 2: and healing. John, thank you for being willing to come

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Speaker 2: back for part two of our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, we'll do part three if we need to.

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Speaker 2: Just let me know we may need to because we

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Speaker 2: might need to go back John and delve into your

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Speaker 2: previous book on faith and mental health.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right now.

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Speaker 2: I really appreciated our conversation on the last episode and listeners,

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Speaker 2: you really need to go back and listen to that.

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Speaker 2: But John, just super briefly, would you just recap what

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Speaker 2: led you to write this book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I like to say I'm the Christian that became

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Speaker 1: an alcoholic, not the other way around. And the church

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Speaker 1: is usually okay with and knows how to handle the

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Speaker 1: other way around the alcoholics who become Christians. But what

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Speaker 1: do you do with the Christians who become alcoholics or

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Speaker 1: the Christians who become adulterers, or the Christians who become addicts,

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Speaker 1: the Christians who become belie miix, like, what do you

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Speaker 1: do with those people? Right? What I'm praying is that

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Speaker 1: this conversation opens up the eyes of people in the

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Speaker 1: church in general, Christians in general, to understand that we

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Speaker 1: are all on a journey of what I call messy sanctification.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, let's go there. Because you talked about how

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Speaker 2: salvation is a lifetime but sanctification is also a lifetime process.

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Speaker 1: Explain that, yeah, exactly. And so I think I have

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Speaker 1: my own podcast, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, and I

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Speaker 1: recently interviewed a pastor who had quote unquote fallen from

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Speaker 1: grace right, which, by the way, no one can fall

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Speaker 1: from grace. You know, that's the headline. Guess what you

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Speaker 1: can't fall from grace, God's grace. He was talking about

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Speaker 1: his his journey, and he said, I was two or

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Speaker 1: three years into pastor in the church when I first

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Speaker 1: realized that the Gospel is for Christians as well. We

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Speaker 1: think about the Gospel being to reach the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: lost right, and it is and it is good news. Right.

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Speaker 1: Gospel means good news but guess what, it's also for us.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be speaking at this this this Baptist

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Speaker 1: church in Georgia, and the pastor wanted to interview me, right,

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Speaker 1: which kudos to him, right, Like he was open to

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Speaker 1: me coming. But you know, hearing out this guy who

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Speaker 1: was on staff at a church and then became an alcoholic.

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Speaker 1: Like that's so he wanted to talk. And so we

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Speaker 1: start talking. We start talking about grace, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're just like preaching at each other in a good way, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it's a sermon and we're just and he goes,

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Speaker 1: you know, I used to be a youth minister, and

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Speaker 1: he said that I would tell these parents who are

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Speaker 1: concerned about their kids, and what would they become. I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, for most of us who grew up in

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Speaker 1: the church. He said, well, for all of us really

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Speaker 1: who grew up in the church and then and then

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Speaker 1: become Christians at a young age. He goes, you will

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Speaker 1: do most of your sinning after you become a Christian.

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Speaker 1: I think about that, yes, Like I became a Christian

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Speaker 1: at eight, like thirty thirty thirty one years of my

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Speaker 1: life I've been I've been sinning since i've since I've

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Speaker 1: become a Christian, right, it's a lot more sins than

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Speaker 1: before I was a Christian. Right Obviously, then the Gospel,

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Speaker 1: the good News is for us as well, right, And

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Speaker 1: so this this sanctification, I think that the quote you

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Speaker 1: said is like salvation is a is a lifeline. Sanctification

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Speaker 1: is a lifetime. Right. It's that process of becoming more

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Speaker 1: like Jesus. And here's the thing. I think even some

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Speaker 1: people listening to were like, yeah, I'm all on board

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Speaker 1: with sanctification. Okay, great, But it's also for the rapist

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Speaker 1: and the adulterer, and the murderer and the person and

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Speaker 1: when they when they repent, right Like, it's not just

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Speaker 1: for sister Betty who wants to be less angry. It's

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Speaker 1: not just for the person who struggles with road rage

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Speaker 1: and maybe they flip someone off on the way to church,

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Speaker 1: right Like, it's for the big sins too. It's for

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Speaker 1: the messy sins as well. And I think that's where

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Speaker 1: the church needs to grow. And it starts by the way.

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Speaker 1: It starts by each person realizing I didn't stop sinning

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Speaker 1: when I became a Christian. And even though like people

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Speaker 1: will know that in their head, it's like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: but really think about that for a second. You didn't

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Speaker 1: stop sinning. I say this, God only works through sinners,

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Speaker 1: only works through sinners. There was one guy he worked

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Speaker 1: through that wasn't a sinner, Jesus. But other than that,

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Speaker 1: he only works through sinners. We're all sinners. I have

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Speaker 1: a tattooed on my arm and it's a phrase from

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Speaker 1: the old desert church fathers and it says he today,

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Speaker 1: I tomorrow. And the context, the story behind the phrase

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Speaker 1: goes like this. There was an old monk in the

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Speaker 1: desert and one of the young monks come to comes

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Speaker 1: to him and says, father, did you hear? What did

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Speaker 1: you hear? What happened with brother Lawrence and what he did?

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Speaker 1: And he details what happened and how he fell away,

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Speaker 1: And the old desert father looks at the young monk

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Speaker 1: and he says, he today, I tomorrow. And it's just

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Speaker 1: like that could be me, that could be me, Like

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Speaker 1: we're all one stupid decision, right, And you're like, no,

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Speaker 1: I could never do that. And it's like no one

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Speaker 1: wakes up one day and says, Okay, I'm gonna cheat

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Speaker 1: on my wife right right, Like it's made in the hundreds,

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Speaker 1: the thousands of decisions that lead up to that point,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know what decision is going to be

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Speaker 1: the tipping point, the severing of your soul that happens

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Speaker 1: because you just it's just one little step, one little step,

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Speaker 1: one little step, and all of a sudden, you do

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Speaker 1: wake up on May May twenty seventh, twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: and you're waiting in your own feces. I didn't wake

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Speaker 1: up that day thinking that was gonna happen. I didn't

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Speaker 1: wake up that day thinking that was gonna be on

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Speaker 1: my rock bottom. I didn't wake up thinking that was

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Speaker 1: gonna be the last time I drank Newslash. It wasn't right,

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Speaker 1: but because the world to recover is paved in relapsed,

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Speaker 1: But but I didn't. I didn't wake up thinking I

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Speaker 1: was going to make the commitment that day. And so

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Speaker 1: I think we have to embrace this idea of messy

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Speaker 1: senttification and it's it's it's for the little sins, but

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Speaker 1: it's for the big sins as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in one of your previous books, Finding Rest and

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Speaker 2: by the way, friends, we will put all the information

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Speaker 2: about John, his ministry, all of his books, his podcast

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Speaker 2: in the show notes that you can find at doctor

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Speaker 2: michelle b dot com. But John, in Finding Rest, you

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Speaker 2: were very open about struggling with OCD and anxiety. But

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Speaker 2: I'm curious how those traits affected your drinking habits.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of of view. Let me say this there.

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Speaker 1: I had a I had a big fear when God

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Speaker 1: told me to write the book about when God told

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Speaker 1: me to write Confessions, I literally said, hell, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I've been there when God asked us to write

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Speaker 2: a book. Yeah, I've been there because we know where

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Speaker 2: we're going to be tried even after we write the book.

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Speaker 1: One hundred hundred percent, I'm like, this is embarrassing. It's

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Speaker 1: I have a lot to lose, right. I went back

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Speaker 1: and looked at the contract for my first book. I'm like, man,

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Speaker 1: that morality clause is pretty tight, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: just I didn't. I didn't want to write it. Part

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Speaker 1: of why I didn't want to write it is because

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Speaker 1: one of my greatest fears has been and I would

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Speaker 1: say still is like I still bring this to the Lord. Michelle.

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Speaker 1: Like even like when you opened up the podcast and

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Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, we have to have them on you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe talk about your first book. There's just a little

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Speaker 1: tinge in my soul because I feel like I've let

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Speaker 1: so many people down right. I feel like, will people

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Speaker 1: look at that and say, well, well, he said all

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and he's talking about all this stuff, and

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Speaker 1: then he becomes a Christian, Like then he becomes a

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Speaker 1: Christian alcoholic. Why should we Why should we consider what

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Speaker 1: he said before that? Right? And but what I have

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Speaker 1: come to realize is that my story, at least up

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Speaker 1: to this point, is a two part story. Maybe it'll

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Speaker 1: be three parts. I don't know, four or five, six,

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Speaker 1: But right now it's a two part story. And part

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Speaker 1: one is Finding Rest. Part one is is battling the anxiety,

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Speaker 1: you know, like what it looks like to be a

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Speaker 1: Christian that battles anxiety and OCD. And what I would

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Speaker 1: say is everything in that book is true. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I even I even mentioned in Finding Rest that I

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Speaker 1: have to watch my drinking. Now. After that book came out,

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Speaker 1: I was watching it all right, like I was watching

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Speaker 1: it go up and then go down my throat, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean? Yeah, I knew the truth, and

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Speaker 1: that is true. But I think it was everything in

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Speaker 1: that book and what I talk about battling anxiety and

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Speaker 1: OCD and all the tools that I had to combat

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Speaker 1: it at that point, all of that was true, and

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Speaker 1: it just didn't make room. And I should say it

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Speaker 1: actually did make room. Chapter eight is called an Ongoing Battle. Right.

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Speaker 1: But all those tools and all the stuff I talk

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Speaker 1: about about battling anxiety and OCD in that book, for

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Speaker 1: that period in my life that I was in, for

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Speaker 1: all the hardship and all the death and everything that

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Speaker 1: I experienced up until that point, it was good for that. Right.

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Speaker 1: What I didn't realize is I was gonna then enter

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Speaker 1: and even tougher. I I just I thought like I'd

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Speaker 1: battled the hardest thing I was going to battle, and

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Speaker 1: this is but when I got to what then became

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Speaker 1: the hardest part of my life, when it became even

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Speaker 1: more than I could have ever imagined. Right again, all

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Speaker 1: the tools that I talk about and finding rest about

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Speaker 1: battling and anxiety in and OCD would have worked. They

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Speaker 1: absolutely would have worked. They just they just weren't the

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Speaker 1: easy way, right. And I think when I hit that

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Speaker 1: really hard the hardest part of my life is the

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Speaker 1: devil really ramped up. He because I had these unexplored

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Speaker 1: traumas in my life, these unexplored parts of myself. I

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Speaker 1: love talking about this, this type of therapy called IFS

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Speaker 1: Internal Family Systems, and the shortest parts work, and the

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Speaker 1: short is like if you've seen the movie Inside Out

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Speaker 1: from Disney, Like basically there's just there's parts of us, right,

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Speaker 1: not not multiple personality disorder, right, but but just like

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Speaker 1: we're made up of complex parts. And so they are

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Speaker 1: just parts of myself that I had never that i'd hid,

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Speaker 1: that I'd put in a dungeon and locked away and

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Speaker 1: said those don't exist, right, And then if they ever

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Speaker 1: start screaming, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna beat them

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Speaker 1: until they be quiet, right, And yeah, right, Well, here's

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Speaker 1: the funny thing. It's silenced them. But what I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize is I'm beating parts of myself and those parts

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Speaker 1: are in pain, yes, novel right, Oh my gosh. You

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Speaker 1: can beat parts of yourself into submission, you can beat

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Speaker 1: them into silence, but guess what you're doing. You're only

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Speaker 1: hurting yourself, right, because they're parts of you. Right. And

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Speaker 1: so for me, the anxiety and the OCD, which was

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Speaker 1: under control and was being dealt with. And even though

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Speaker 1: I knew ongoing battle like it the devil, the devil

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Speaker 1: just found those things. He's like, Oh, you're doing well.

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Speaker 1: You think you're doing well. Ah, watch this right. And

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Speaker 1: I just wasn't prepared for it. Thought I was, but

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Speaker 1: wasn't because I hadn't gotten to the root even of

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Speaker 1: some of those big things.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I can so relate. After writing my book Breaking

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Speaker 2: Anxiety Scrip, it was like the enemy came after, like,

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Speaker 2: do you really believe what you just wrote? Yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: test that. Yeah, And I really had to go back

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Speaker 2: to do I really believe what I've told my readers?

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Speaker 2: And am I gonna stand firm on it? And what

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Speaker 2: else lies beneath that hadn't previously been on earth that

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Speaker 2: I need to deal with?

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Speaker 1: Mmm?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the enemy doesn't play fair. We have to

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Speaker 2: be really careful what books we choose to write well.

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Speaker 1: And that's why even now in this one, I say like,

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Speaker 1: I'm coming into it much more realistic. So even though

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Speaker 1: I talk about getting to the root of my drinking,

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Speaker 1: I'm much more wise now to know that it's not

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Speaker 1: just the things I've already identified, right, Like there are

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Speaker 1: still things that are popping up right, Like I went

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Speaker 1: to my therapist yesterday, right, because man, I'm encountering something.

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Speaker 1: I know this is a popular buzzword, but I think

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Speaker 1: it's actually this is the right context for it. I'm

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Speaker 1: finding myself triggered like something like my life is seeing

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Speaker 1: something very innocuous and I'm like literally going into fighter

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Speaker 1: flight mode, Like what is that?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Why? I mean that was? I know in my prefrontal

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Speaker 1: cortex that I shouldn't be going into fighter flight mode.

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Speaker 1: But my amigdala is throwing you into fighter flight mode?

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Speaker 1: What is going on? Well, that's a new thing that

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Speaker 1: didn't come up in the first year of my sobriety

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Speaker 1: and rooting out.

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Speaker 2: In a way, aren't you glad? John? Because the way

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Speaker 2: I talk to my patients and my listeners and my

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Speaker 2: viewers is like healing is like an onion, and God

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Speaker 2: helps heal the outside layer and lets us live in

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Speaker 2: that healing for a little bit, and then at time

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Speaker 2: he'll like, Okay, it's time to peel back the next layer.

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Speaker 2: And then it's time to peel back the next layer.

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Speaker 2: Aren't you kind of glad that you didn't have to

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Speaker 2: go to the root of all these shoes all at once.

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Speaker 2: I mean, God is gentle and gracious that way. But

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Speaker 2: like you say, sanctification is for a lifetime, and I

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Speaker 2: think healing is for a lifetime.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's such a good point. I'd never had put

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Speaker 1: it in the terms of like, how gracious of God

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Speaker 1: not to allow us to go through all that? Right?

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Speaker 1: But yes, I mean it's like a doll up of

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Speaker 1: whipped cream is great, but if you were to eat

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Speaker 1: a whole tub, you know, like that would not be good. Right.

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Speaker 1: So there's a there's a guy, David Paulson, who's a

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Speaker 1: really famous biblical counselor, and I quote him in the

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Speaker 1: book because he says, man, I'm sure I'm gonna butcher this,

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Speaker 1: but his point is it's just like God to allow

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Speaker 1: us for he was talking about sanctification, for sanctification to

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Speaker 1: be focused on basically one thing at a time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And and.

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Speaker 1: So you go through this thing and you root that out,

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Speaker 1: and then you go on to the next thing and

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Speaker 1: then so it's exactly what I just I love that

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Speaker 1: framing it as that's actually a gift, the graciousness of God.

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Speaker 2: That's I'm so grateful, so grateful because each layer feels

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Speaker 2: so painful in and of itself. Yeah, we've talked us

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Speaker 2: for a moment about how and why is alcoholism more

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Speaker 2: than just how much you drink?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I think we skimmed this a little

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Speaker 1: bit in last week's episode, and so I'm glad we're

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Speaker 1: coming back to this. I think there's a phrase that

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Speaker 1: I said in last week that that that I just

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Speaker 1: think is so important. It's not going to be the

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Speaker 1: Hope Field nugget at the end, but it is like

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Speaker 1: that if if you take away some phrase or something

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Speaker 1: that you can just like burn into your brain. It's

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Speaker 1: this idea of misordered is disordered? Does quantity play a role?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely right, it does. But I told that story last

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Speaker 1: week of the suburban mom teacher of the year, right,

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Speaker 1: who just needed to have her two glasses of wine

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Speaker 1: a week, was not getting drunk, and yet she realized

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Speaker 1: the place it was occupying in her life, what it

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Speaker 1: was doing if she didn't have it, Not necessarily the

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Speaker 1: physical cravings, but the mental aspect of I just need

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Speaker 1: to I and I can online without this, right, And

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Speaker 1: and she's like, I was addicted to it. And I

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Speaker 1: think if we if we embrace that mindset and by

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Speaker 1: the way, not many people do like I've had I had.

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Speaker 1: I had one person who read it early goptany of

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Speaker 1: the book, and I literally had to stop myself from

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Speaker 1: chuckling because they go I said, hey, you know, what's

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Speaker 1: your feedback, and they said, you know it's good. But

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Speaker 1: you know, for a moment, you almost had me convinced

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Speaker 1: that I was an alcoholic because I started thinking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the way that I treat alcohol and the

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Speaker 1: way I drink it. But but then I realized, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't drink that much. And I'm like, don't feel

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Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit? Chron don't feel spirit? Oh. Like I

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Speaker 1: was like, you know what, this guy he's gonna be like,

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just gonna yep, okay, okay. And because

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Speaker 1: here's the reality. You can drink more than me and

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Speaker 1: not being alcoholic. You can drink less than me and

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Speaker 1: being alcoholic. Right again, is quantity an indicator? Yes, it

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Speaker 1: is not the only indicator. Right. And so I was

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Speaker 1: talking to a wife. I had given a speech at

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Speaker 1: this this business luncheon and she came up to me

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Speaker 1: afterwards and she goes, my husband's my husband's alcoholic. He doesn't,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't know it, though he won't admit it. I said, okay,

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Speaker 1: like what does it look like? And she said, once

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Speaker 1: a year he goes basically on a bender and he

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Speaker 1: will just go a weekend, he'll go away and he

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Speaker 1: will just drink and drink and drink and drink. He's

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Speaker 1: got a really stressful job. He can't drink during the week.

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Speaker 1: He can't drink at other times during the year. I

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Speaker 1: mean he can have like a he can have like

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Speaker 1: he'll have like a glass of wine. He's responsible. But

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Speaker 1: she says, you know that he looks forward to that weekend.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is like it is like his release.

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Speaker 1: It is it is it is he orients his life

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Speaker 1: around that weekend when he can just go and and

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Speaker 1: just let go. And so, I don't know if you've

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Speaker 1: ever seen the movies The Purge, right, it's these horror

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Speaker 1: movies right where the concept is society's become so depraved

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Speaker 1: that what they've said is once a year, for one weekend,

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Speaker 1: you can kill anyone you want and get it out

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Speaker 1: of your system, and it becomes this cult like thing.

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Speaker 1: Now would you say, well, those people don't have a problem,

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Speaker 1: they're only doing it once a year. No, you'd be

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Speaker 1: like they got issues, and so again, this guy can

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Speaker 1: responsibly drink throughout the year, but his mindset is this

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Speaker 1: is the thing that's giving me relief. This is the

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Speaker 1: thing that's giving me release. It's not Jesus, it's not

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Speaker 1: my faith, it is this And just because it comes

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Speaker 1: once a year doesn't mean he doesn't have a problem, right,

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Speaker 1: you know. And it's like, that's what I want people

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Speaker 1: to hear and see and understand. Right, anything, anything you

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Speaker 1: would have treated that way, I'm only going to binge

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Speaker 1: and purge one weekend out of the year.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, maybe your esophagus is a little bit better, right,

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Speaker 1: but like you still have a heart issue. There's still

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Speaker 1: something going on that you haven't dealt with. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I want That's why I said this last week.

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Speaker 1: I don't want you to just be sober, like I'm

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Speaker 1: grateful that you're sober, right, I want you to be here,

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Speaker 1: especially if you're drinking. It's so destructive, like it's killing you,

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Speaker 1: Like I want you to be here, So please get sober, right,

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Speaker 1: but don't stop there, right, because there's something better for you.

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Speaker 1: There's something better waiting for you than just sobriety. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to speak in a few weeks, and there's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of people from recovery and treatment centers,

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Speaker 1: and one of the questions that I'm going to ask

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Speaker 1: them is this, how many of you know miserable sober people?

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Speaker 1: And I can tell you that every hand that in

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Speaker 1: that room should probably go up. Now, do you know

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Speaker 1: miserable Christians? Yes, but but we know that if you're

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Speaker 1: a miserable Christian, something's wrong, something's off. There's a remedy.

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Speaker 1: If you're a miserable sober person, what do all the

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Speaker 1: programs tell you, Well, you're doing great, like you've nailed it,

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Speaker 1: You're awesome. Just keep going, just keep going, just stay sober.

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Speaker 1: You've reached the pinnacle. And it's like, no, miserable Christians

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Speaker 1: know they haven't reached the pinnacle. Like something's off, something's wrong.

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Speaker 1: They need to shoot for more of Jesus. Miserable sober

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Speaker 1: people are told you're good, you're good, so like the

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Speaker 1: goal isn't sobriety. So that's why, coming all the way

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Speaker 1: back around, that's why I can't just be about quantity, right,

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Speaker 1: It can't just be about quantity.

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Speaker 2: It's really got to go back to heart change. Friends,

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Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break for a brief

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Speaker 2: word from our sponsor, but I want you to stick

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Speaker 2: with us because John's going to share more about how

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Speaker 2: we can practically break free from hidden addictions. We'll be

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Speaker 2: right back John. When you started looking at the how

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Speaker 2: and why of your addiction, you uncovered four layers. Briefly,

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Speaker 2: what are those?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll start with the first one. There's the physical layer.

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Speaker 1: That physical layer is the that's the one that most

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Speaker 1: people just know. It's the cravings, it's the proclivities, it's

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Speaker 1: the it's in my family tree. Right from the physical layer,

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Speaker 1: you go to the cultural layer. And this is one

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Speaker 1: that like that's interesting. Like people would be like, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean, And I would say, you watched

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Speaker 1: a Super Bowl ad lately? Right it is. It is

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Speaker 1: being fed to us so so much that drinking has

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Speaker 1: to be has to accompany anything in life where it's

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Speaker 1: it needs to be there for you for your sporting event,

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Speaker 1: it needs to be there for you for your night out,

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Speaker 1: it needs to be there for you after work. Right

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Speaker 1: like culture is telling us, like the alcohol industry is

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Speaker 1: huge recently, actually, a Gallup poll came out though that

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Speaker 1: said drinking is at an all time low, and I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people cell it and I'm and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm grateful for that, right, like we need

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Speaker 1: to celebrate that. But you know that drinking was also

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Speaker 1: at an all time low, like I think it was

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Speaker 1: like nineteen eighty nine, right, Like it goes up and down, right,

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Speaker 1: And so it's not like it's not like they started

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00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 1: they started taking this data in nineteen seventy. It's spikes

428
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one or or they started in nineteen

429
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: seventy and it's just been going down every like. No,

430
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: it's just it's literally just like a you know, a

431
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 1: mountain range.

432
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 3: Ye.

433
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: So my point is, let's celebrate it, right, but let's

434
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: not rest on our laurels, because culture like is gonna

435
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 1: be out there. The alcohol industry has stuck around through

436
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 1: a lot of all time lows. Let me put that

437
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: and guess what, They even survived an amendment to the Constitution.

438
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: You know, like, the alcohol industry will survive, and they're

439
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: gonna find ways to make it even cooler and look

440
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 1: better and get over all the issues that people and

441
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: concerns about health even cigarettes, right, there's all these issues

442
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: about cigarettes. How many people still I mean, it's less sure,

443
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: but tons of people are still dying of lung cancer

444
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: from cigarettes. Until it's zero, I'm gonna still be saying

445
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna be saying. Yeah, the third layer is

446
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna say it's kind of the spiritual layer.

447
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: And within the spiritual layer, is this sort of what

448
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: I call cognitive dissonance? And how does this happen? That's

449
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: a question that haunted me for a long time. Like

450
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: it's not just like it's a question I asked myself

451
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: for a long time, how does this happen? Right? And

452
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: so these layers are part of answering that that that question.

453
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 1: And there's a spiritual aspect to this that takes on

454
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: several different forms. There's the spiritual warfare aspect, right. You

455
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: alluded to that when your when your book came out,

456
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: and that's true. I grew up in a very charismatic

457
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 1: Pentecostal denomination, got to like got away from that, joined

458
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 1: a different denomination. And I think because because there was

459
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: a lot of hurt that was done to me in

460
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: that in that denomination growing up, I just wanted to

461
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: wall off anything right, leave the bad, and then if

462
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: there was anything good in there, like, leave that too.

463
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: And I think one of the bat one of the

464
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: things I left for many years was just an appreciation

465
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: for the reality of spiritual warfare because that was used.

466
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 1: It was like it was like, you get a bad

467
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: parking spot, spiritual warfare, you know exactly. I just don't

468
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: think that's really true. Or something bad happens to you

469
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, yeah, you got sick because you

470
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: ate seven pounds of turkey on Thanksgiving, Like, I don't

471
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: think that's spiritual warfare. I think that's esophageal warfare. And

472
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: so coming to that understanding though that like, no, that's real, right.

473
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: I also think that I've talked about this thing called

474
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance, and we live as creatures in this fallen

475
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: and broken world where we can know, where we can understand,

476
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: where we can have the knowledge, just not act on it.

477
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: And I think that that's true in a lot of

478
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: aspects of our lives. It was especially true for me

479
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: in this aspect of my life. So I knew what

480
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: the Bible says about getting drunk. I knew what I

481
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: was supposed to be doing, and that there's just this

482
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance that says puts that in a corner and

483
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: it's own box or whatever, just uses justifications or or whatnot.

484
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: And and I think the best way I describe it is, well,

485
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: I'll use I'll use the words of Jesus actually in Revelation,

486
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: which you know, everyone's like, what a w I keep it.

487
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: But in the beginning of Revelation there's it's in the

488
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: end it's a letter to seven churches, and one of

489
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: the church is the Church. In ephesis, Jesus talks about

490
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: the church and he's like, you know, you guys have

491
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: all the right theology, you have all the right doctrine,

492
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: you're technically doing all the right things, but really you've

493
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: abandoned your first love. You've abandoned me. And I think

494
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: that's the best explanation for me in that aspect of

495
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: the spiritual layer, which is I had all the right knowledge.

496
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: I was on staff at a church. I could counsel

497
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: people and give them wisdom in certain things. But I

498
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: had just abandoned that love and that desire to cultivate

499
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: an experiential relationship with Jesus. Now this is not experientialism.

500
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: I think that's you know that, that's when you basically

501
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: you say that that you can only experience Jesus if

502
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: it's something, if it makes you feel no, no, no,

503
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: But there is an aspect of like you have to

504
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: cultivate an experiential relationship with Jesus. So that's a spiritual layer.

505
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: And then there's there's kind of this which which there's

506
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: really this this kind of trauma layer. And so when

507
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: I ask how does this happen, listen, and there was

508
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: there was these things that happened to me as as

509
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: a child and through my young my young life that

510
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: I just didn't know what to do with, and then

511
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: as an adult, I just didn't want to deal with them.

512
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: I didn't want to revisit them. And I think for

513
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: for a lot of us. You look at this and

514
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: maybe there's people listening and it's like, man, they're saying,

515
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: everyone has trauma now these days, and I'm like, yeah, maybe,

516
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: like when I look at trauma and if I really

517
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: look at what that is, brokenness, right, it's rupture, it's sin, right,

518
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, I think to a degree, everyone

519
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: does have trauma. Now, there's a difference between big T

520
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: trauma and lower t trauma, right, the big Tree, scial

521
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: cults and you know, like all that, yes, right, But

522
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people who don't want

523
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: to admit and maybe even some people who think it's disrespectful.

524
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: My parents did the best they could. Yes, you know what,

525
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: I'm doing the best I can with my kids, and

526
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm causing them drama, Like there are things that they

527
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: I hope that they come to me at twenty one

528
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: and say, Dad, you did when you reacted this way?

529
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: It did this to me. Of course it did. Of

530
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: course it did. And I am a sinner and I

531
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: am so sorry. How can we heal that. It's not

532
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: about if you're going to rupture the relationship, it's if

533
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: you're going to repair it and how you repair it, right?

534
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: And so I think there's a lot of people who,

535
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: again for a variety of reagency, either don't want to

536
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: deal with it. They don't want to I don't want

537
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: to talk to the Bible says to honor my parents.

538
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: I can't talk, you know, I can't say that. And

539
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, silence is not honor, by the way, silence

540
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: is not honor. And if you are Bible talks about

541
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: these generational curses. And I talk about this a little

542
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: bit in the book about how like that's not as

543
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: I read that, it's not the Lord saying I am

544
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: going to do X, Y and Z, it's him saying

545
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: this is how it is. Right. If you don't interrupt patterns,

546
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: they go to the third and fourth generations, right Like,

547
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: if you don't go and try to heal, these things

548
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: keep going. Right. Yes, those are the layers in my

549
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: life that I had to peel back and go through

550
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: and am still going through.

551
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 2: And I think your point that we've got to interrupt

552
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: those patterns is crucial. I remember as a clinical neuropsychologist

553
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: and being in the throes of a severe bout of depression,

554
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: and the one thing that motivated me to keep going

555
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: is that I wanted it to stop with my generation

556
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: because I had seen it in generation after generation before me,

557
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: and I wanted to figure out how do we get

558
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: to the root and stop this. I don't want my

559
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: kids to have to go through that or worse, but

560
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: it really requires going into that painful place. Like we

561
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: talked about on last week's episode, healing is a journey

562
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: through highs and lows, and it can be pretty painful,

563
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: but I'm grateful for the Lord's graciousness and how much

564
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: he lets us handle it one time. But John, I

565
00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: really think there is so much stigma still around mental

566
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: health issues, whether we're talking depression or anxiety or OCD

567
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: or addiction alcohol or other kinds of addiction. And I

568
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: still hear comments like true Christians can't fall into addiction.

569
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: What would you say to that, Oh, maybe that's episode that. No.

570
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: Right, That, by the way, is why we were having

571
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: this conversation, why we didn't limit it to part one,

572
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: because I think we have to talk about it because

573
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: there are other John's and other Michelles that are out

574
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: there struggling who don't want to confess because of those

575
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: kinds of comments.

576
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not that I'm trying to figure out

577
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: what to say, it's what I'm trying to figure out

578
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: what not to say, because I've been told that right.

579
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: In fact, i'd written an earlier copy of the first

580
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: draft of the book. I'd sent it out to some people,

581
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: and one person got back to me and said, I

582
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: don't paraphrase in here. I don't doubt that you're a

583
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: Christian now obviously, or it's not work. But what I'm

584
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: unsure of is if you were a Christian before, because

585
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: the Bible says that Christians can't go on sinny. And

586
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: so here's what's interesting this is, this is one of

587
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: the reasons I went to seminary Michelle, like, I wanted

588
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: to study these things. I wanted to have a response

589
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: because that just doesn't you know, Initially, I'm like, that

590
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: just doesn't feel right. But now I want to put

591
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: scripture in theology into why that doesn't feel right? Yeah,

592
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: I start to answer that question. I think a lot

593
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: of people answer that question. They say, well, that just

594
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: means if you are engaging in an on an ongoing

595
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: sin and it's unrepentant for X, Y and z. Better

596
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: but still not good. Here's why how long? Right? Like?

597
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: What if someone is in unrepentant ongoing sin, Like is

598
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: a week? Okay? What about two years? What about ten years?

599
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: What about twenty years? We by going to that answer, well,

600
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: it just means unrepentant sin for a period of time.

601
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: Who gets to define that period of time? Right, right?

602
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: And so we got to be careful there, right, And

603
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: so that person who who who finds Jesus right and

604
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: then falls into sin? I would also ask what sins

605
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: qualify as ongoing sin, because I know a lot of

606
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: people who aren't alcoholics, but man, they have bouts of anger,

607
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: their elders at their church, their deacons at their church.

608
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: They come home and they're not quote unquote abusive in

609
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: the traditional term. They're not. They're not physically abusive, but man,

610
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: they are they are. They get angry with their kids

611
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: and they just let them have it. It's a sin

612
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: to lose control right of your temper and your anger

613
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: like that. Well, that's that's different, is it? Right? Because

614
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: I think of what a lot of people who read

615
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: those verses and their first John is a good example

616
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: of where they are, of where some of them are,

617
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: they say. It really ends up being if you're caught

618
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: in sin for however long I think it is not

619
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: okay to be caught in sin, and for whatever sin

620
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: that I think is not okay to be part of right.

621
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: And so with each person it changes. For some people

622
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 1: that's a year and that's alcohol. For some people that's

623
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: two years and it's this sin. Right. My point is this,

624
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: as I've gone through seminary, I can't fully answer the

625
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: question for how long you can be caught in sin

626
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: before you quote unquote, are you know, well you were

627
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: never a Christian? I don't know, right, I don't. Here's

628
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: what I do know, though, I was caught in sin.

629
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: And I would say, you know, like I said, my

630
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: relationship with alcohol was on and off and it was

631
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: always misordered, disordered. Right, But if you want to look

632
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: at okay, there was a there was a year and

633
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: a half where it was a severe slide. Right, So

634
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: let's just call it, let's just call it for argument's sake,

635
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: that that was like that year and a half. Here's

636
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: what I know. I couldn't stay there. I didn't stay there, right,

637
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: Like the whole point was the Holy Spirit was working

638
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: on me. Right, he did call me out of that.

639
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: So just because it took a year and a half,

640
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: isn't that actually a sign that I was a Christian?

641
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: Like the Holy Spirit eating at me. And there were

642
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: times that would pop up, and yes, I would drink

643
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: it away. And then finally on the beach in Miami,

644
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: it clicked. It finally got through. And for some people

645
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: that's a week and for some people it's ten years,

646
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: and for me it was a year and a half.

647
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: And so I think we have we get so dogmatic

648
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: about certain passages and like what I'm saying is like

649
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: theologically correct, trust me, I've studied it. And yet people

650
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: are they just they get these these these forms, these denominations,

651
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: these whatever that are just that are wrapped up in

652
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,719
Speaker 1: what is actually and taking two church history classes, it's

653
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: actually wrapped up in like this Old Piety movement around

654
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: around the seventeenth eighteenth century, and it says that there's

655
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: kind of two levels of salvation. There's your initial conversion

656
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: and then there's like a second blessing, a second act

657
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: of grace. It's just like if you look at like

658
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: Orthodox Christianity, that's not true. Right, You're saved and you've

659
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: accepted Jesus, and by God's grace, his Holy Spirit has

660
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: been working on me ever since. Yeah.

661
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: I mean I think of Paul. Wasn't it Paul in

662
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: the New Testament who said why do I keep doing

663
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: the things I don't want to do?

664
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Roman seven, yes, yes.

665
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: And that's why when we started off this episode, I

666
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: thought it was so important to talk about that big

667
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: word sanctification, because it is the daily working out our

668
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 2: salvation and dying to self. It's a moment by moment,

669
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,479
Speaker 2: thought by thought, decision by decision process, and some days

670
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: we're gonna feel like we nail it, and some years

671
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: we're gonna go what happened there? But the Holy Spirit

672
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: is still working and willing to help us become more

673
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: like our savior.

674
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 1: There's a famous quote from John Owen, and he says,

675
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: be killing sin, or sin will be killing you. And

676
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: now here's the thing. You will never run out of

677
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: sins to kill, right question. And here's the thing. I

678
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: there's evidences of grace in my life throughout my life,

679
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: and evidences of salvation because there are other sins that

680
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: I killed along the way. And now my sinful heart

681
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: use that. Well, you've killed this in, you've killed this in.

682
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: It's okay to have that one. It's not that bad.

683
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: That's the sin nature, right, But there's evidences of that

684
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: in my own life, and I think I hope people

685
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: will see. On one hand, I don't want you to

686
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: minimize what you're doing, but I also don't want you

687
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: to give it too much power. I don't want you

688
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: to say I can't come back from that. This is

689
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: a big one and there's no room for me at

690
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: the altar, and I would say, come because I'm right

691
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: there with you.

692
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: But that's what the enemy wants us to believe. This

693
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: is too big. What would other people think? Who cares

694
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: what other people would think. God is beckoning us, by

695
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: the power of the Holy Spirit to come to him.

696
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,479
Speaker 2: He knows about it anyway. Yeah, absolutely, And we're gonna

697
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: take a real short break and then we're gonna come

698
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: back to hear John's Hope Field perspective about how Christians

699
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: can find help and healing. We'll be right back after

700
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: this word from our sponsor. Okay, John, there's a couple

701
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: things that we need to talk about briefly as we

702
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: wrap up this episode. Readers, I want you to pick

703
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: up John's book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic. It's not

704
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: just about struggling with alcohol. It's about our sin nature

705
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: and how do we come to a place where we

706
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: can bring that into the light and heal from it.

707
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: But John, I know that you went through a four

708
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: step spiritual process that you found was key to break

709
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: free from your addiction. We just give us a taste

710
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: of that.

711
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I say the book is part memoir

712
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: park guide, and so the first half really is my story.

713
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 1: And then the second half is I want to be practical.

714
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: I want to let take people on the journey of

715
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 1: my story within a journey to healing. And so these

716
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: fourth step we talked a little bit in last week's

717
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: episode about AA and other twelve step programs. I'm not

718
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: trying to replace. Like, if that's if that's what you

719
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: want to do, is a twelve step program, I'm not

720
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: trying to replace it now. I think you should do

721
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: a Christian version at minimum of a twelve step program.

722
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: If whatever program or whatever path you take to recover

723
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: is a foundation, these steps are bedrock. They are what

724
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: a foundation is drilled into. Okay, And you know how

725
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: I know these steps work because they can't not. Once

726
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: you hear them, anything you do here it's not going

727
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: to hurt you. I can guarantee you that. So the

728
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: four steps real quickly. It starts with abiding in Christ.

729
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of my life, having grown

730
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: up in the church, it's like, like, you know, you

731
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: get these kind of trite phrases and whatnot. And what

732
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: I can tell you is that when I get to

733
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: got to the end of my rope, you realize that

734
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: you realize how precious Jesus is when he's all you

735
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: have to cling onto. Yes, right, and when my time

736
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: in the morning that I spend with him and maybe

737
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: years can be the afternoon. It's the walk, it's a run,

738
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: it's a whatever. It doesn't have to look like mine,

739
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: but do it right. And what I would say is

740
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 1: this is the only step that has to be done first.

741
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: All the other step you want to do, Step four,

742
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: step three, you'll hear like they're kind of you just

743
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: do them all the time, But it has to start

744
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: with still you have to spend time with Jesus. Step

745
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: number two is finding your true identity. And I'm not

746
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: just talking about your identity as a child of God,

747
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: that's your general identity. What I'm talking about is find

748
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: that specific thing that He has called you to, that

749
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: he has wired you to do, that he's given you

750
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: the gifts to do. I think so many of us

751
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: try to drown out the noise of the world because

752
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: we're not operating out of our true identity. We're swimming upstream,

753
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: and yeah, you get tired and you just want to

754
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: escape from that. But man, maybe if you were swimming

755
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: with the current and operating out of what you were

756
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing you wouldn't be so burned out

757
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: and tired. And so there's a great book I talk

758
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: about in the book and it's called Living Fearless by

759
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 1: a guy named Jamie Winship. That really helped me find

760
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: my true identity. The third one is radical vulnerability. That

761
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: adjective there is really important. See, we're okay with talking

762
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: about vulnerability. I think it's become kind of in vogue lately.

763
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be vulnerable and I'm gonna open up and

764
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: I use this example. I said, you know, especially the

765
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: men listening, you've all sat in a guys group where

766
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: you've gone around the circle and everyone's like, yeah, I've

767
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: been struggling with lust this week. Ah, brother yes, yes, ah,

768
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: thank you for being so honest. Right, and then you

769
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: just kind of go and you say, okay, we'll be

770
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 1: praying for you again. But really, brother Bob was honest.

771
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: Like he's looking at porn. He looked at it this morning,

772
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: he's planning on doing it again tonight. He's got a

773
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: secret you know phone, he's got a secret account, he's

774
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: got a secret whatever. Right, But Brother Bob assuages his

775
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: conscience and says, I'm being vulnerable I'm being open. I

776
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: told him I was struggling with lust. But if he

777
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: was radically vulnerable and actually said exactly what he was

778
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: going through and doing, well, then guess what then you

779
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: have to kill it then, like dragging it into the

780
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: light and shining a light on it. Right, Well, then

781
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: those guys are gonna be like, oh, okay, well, let's

782
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: get that second phone, let's take that away, let's let's

783
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: go on those accounts. Let's but no, you don't want

784
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: to do that. You just want to be vulnerable and

785
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: say I'm struggling with lust. All of us do this.

786
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: I did this. I was leading a home group. I

787
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: was leading a church home group during during during the

788
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: severe slide period, and I was being vulnerable in areas.

789
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: But I had that, then I'm just not going to

790
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: be radically vulnerable in this one. Hey, guys, I had

791
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: a little too much to drink last night. Did anything happen? No? Well,

792
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: that's true. I didn't do anything quote unquote stupid. I

793
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: didn't hit my wife, I didn't hit my kids. I

794
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: didn't go drive. No, No, I didn't do anything stupid.

795
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: Is that true? That's true? But what if I was

796
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: radically vulnerable guys, I actually had seven beers and I

797
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: don't remember the second half of the night. Oh that's

798
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: a little bit more than you just had. That's a

799
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: little bit different than you just had a little too

800
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: much to drink last night. Nothing happened, right. Final is obedience.

801
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: Final step is obedience. It's a dirty word in culture today,

802
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: especially when you talk about obedience to God. Right. And

803
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: yet what I have found is you want to the

804
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,479
Speaker 1: abiding aspect. You'll learn how when you abide how much

805
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: more you have to trust God? Right? Like you're like, ooh,

806
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: I am not trusting him in this situation. And you

807
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: know what is a great way to trust the Lord

808
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: is to be obedient to him. You don't obey what

809
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: you don't trust, you know. And so if you're having

810
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: a if you're having trouble obeying God, and so people

811
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: are like, well how do I like, where do you

812
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 1: where do you get these acts of obedience? And I say, well,

813
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: Scripture one, right, there's these general things, right, and then

814
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: you're going to hear it in your abiding time. And

815
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: if you're struggling with that, start going to his word

816
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: and figuring out how do I trust him more? How

817
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: do I meditate? On the scriptures that talk about trusting

818
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 1: the Lord, and how do I bury that into my soul?

819
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: Because what I have found is that in being obedient

820
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: to the Lord. Again I talk about that most flourishing

821
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: and fulfilled life, the most flourishing, fulfilled life that I

822
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: have found. He's being obedient. And sometimes here's the funny thing.

823
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: The Lord puts something in my heart to do, to

824
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: send an email, to talk to someone, to do something,

825
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: and I'll be like, okay, I can see how like

826
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: if I send that email and tell that, you know,

827
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 1: like okay, like that'd be great if that worked out.

828
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: And then that happened, and like nine times out of ten,

829
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: the thing that I'm like, oh, I'm sending this email

830
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: because he wants me to get this job and that

831
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: would be great, you know, it's like and the job

832
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: doesn't pan out, and I'm like, what the heck? Lord?

833
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: You told me to send that email to tell them that, like, hey,

834
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: I'm available, let's let's make that happen. And that didn't

835
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: What what the heck? Lord? And He's like, I just

836
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: wanted you to practice. I just wanted you to practice.

837
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: And now you're closer to me, right, Like it's not.

838
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: The obedience is not just for the outcome that you

839
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: think or want it to be right. And so by

840
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: practicing those four steps and continually continually practicing those steps

841
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: every day, right, I can tell you that you will

842
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: you you will find freedom you can't not. And people

843
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: are like, wow, that's a bold statement. Yeah, Like, think

844
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: about abiding with Christ, finding your true identity, practicing radical vulnerability,

845
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: and being obedient to God. If you truly do those

846
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 1: four things, think about that, you're the things that you're

847
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: feeling slaved to. I'm not saying they'll be kicked. And

848
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: it's miraculously like I still have a desire to drink

849
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: at times because I still have a desire to escape,

850
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 1: because I still live in a fallen and broken world

851
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: where the desires of my heart will never fully and

852
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: completely be cleansed and cleaned and what they should be.

853
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: I can tell you by following those four steps, I

854
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: kicked alcohol. I found sobriety, but most importantly, I found

855
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: more of Jesus. And I can't overstate what that has

856
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: done in my life.

857
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: You're going right where I have to ask, and you've

858
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: hinted to it in other ways. How has your life

859
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: changed since finding sobriety. Has there been anything in particular

860
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: that has surprised you on.

861
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: Two stages, I would say what surprised me at first

862
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: was how miserable I was. People are like, whoh, don't

863
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: make it sound so enticing you.

864
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 3: No.

865
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: I I jacked my physical body up, I jacked my

866
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: mental body up. I jacked my emotional body up. But

867
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 1: that's part of the process too, right, because I had

868
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: because alcohol becomes such a crutch in my life, I

869
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: didn't know how to sit with myself anymore. Yeah, I

870
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: didn't know how to spend time with my kids. I

871
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: didn't know what to have how to have a conversation

872
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: with my wife. So initially, when you take that away,

873
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: it's miserable. Yeah, And I don't know how long your

874
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: miserable will be. Maybe it's a day, maybe it's a week,

875
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: maybe it's a year. I don't know. But my but

876
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: but then once I got through that period and and

877
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: figured out how to have a conversation with my wife,

878
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: how to sit with the uncomfortable emotions, how to have

879
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: fun with my kids, I began enjoying things to a

880
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: degree that I never was able to before. I think

881
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: I joked last week that I had like more pictures

882
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: on my phone of clouds and birds and whatnot. And

883
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: it's like it got to the point where like I

884
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: could taste colors, Like wait what, I'm like, Yeah, I

885
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: could taste colors like it. It just my senses physically,

886
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: emotionally and spiritually were awaken and the brain power that

887
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 1: I got back, and now I'm like, well, I've accessed

888
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: parts of my brain, which is actually scientifically true, Like

889
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: you'd numb these parts of your of your brain when

890
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: you're when you're drinking the way that I was drinking, right,

891
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: or just when you're making an idol out of anything,

892
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: you're making an idle love. When I got sober, I

893
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: was able to enjoy my family in a new, better way.

894
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: I was able to use parts of my brain. And

895
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: I would say, actually that I've found out who I

896
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: really am for like the first time in my adult life.

897
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: Because even though, like I said, there was that year

898
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: and a half of really severe drinking, it was before

899
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: that alcohol was still a crutched right, maybe it wasn't

900
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: as bad as it was, but going back to last week,

901
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: I was still on the spectrum. I was still on

902
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: the spectrum from twenty one from twenty one on right,

903
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: I was still on the spectrum and so now I

904
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: feel like I've found I've found who I really am.

905
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes that's scary, and that's why I go to therapy. Still,

906
00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: if a.

907
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 2: Listener, review or is really resonating with our conversation, maybe

908
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: they see themselves in some part of your story, or

909
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: they have a friend or a loved one that they

910
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: recognize as struggling with a secret addiction. What hope Field

911
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: perspective do you want to leave them with this week?

912
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: I kind of alluded to this and I say it.

913
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: I think there's a there's a lot of maybe sobriety

914
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: books or you know, they call it quit lit quit

915
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,959
Speaker 1: lit in this genre, and I want to be real

916
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: with you. Here's the Hopefield perspective is it's going to

917
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: be hard, but it's going to be good. And there's

918
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people who give up on pursuing Jesus,

919
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: pursuing sobriety, which again, remember pursued Jesus. He gives sobriety

920
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: thrown in because it's hard. It's it's it's harder than

921
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: they thought it was going to be. What I can

922
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: tell you is that the suffering, and I can truly

923
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: use that word is there's been suffering last week and

924
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: a little bit this week. I said, I wrote Finding Rest,

925
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: I'd encountered the hardest part of my life. I wrote

926
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: that book. Then I encounter, well, never mind, the real

927
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: hardest part of my life, and then I become an alcoholic,

928
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: and then I write this book. Well, what, by the way,

929
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: over the last year and a half, it's actually been

930
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: the hardest part of my life. My wife has been

931
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: diagnosed with chronic illnesses. You just had a major surgery

932
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: it hysterectomy last week, and we are walking through this

933
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: world of chronic illness. And didn't see that coming. I

934
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: gave up my job to go to seminary full time

935
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: because God called me to. Newsflash, that was one of

936
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: my acts of obedience. Right, not only am I not

937
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: contributing to my family's bottom line, but I am like

938
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: drawing from it to pay for seminary. Like it's hard.

939
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: You want to talk about sitting with yourself and the

940
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: enemy using words to say what a failure you are.

941
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: You're being so selfish You're going to seminary and your

942
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: wife's working to pay the bill, Like what, who are you,

943
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: You're not a man I'm in now what I would

944
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: say is the hardest part of my life. And yet,

945
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: and I don't say this tritly because I know there's

946
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: probably people who've grown up in the church listening to

947
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: this and it's hard. There truly is a peace set

948
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: surpasses understanding. By practicing those four steps, I can truly

949
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: say this has been hard, but it has been good.

950
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: And C. S. Lewis, my favorite author, says, you know

951
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: that pain is a megaphone that God uses to rouse

952
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: a deaf world. And here's the thing, you and I

953
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: are hard of hearing. And I've actually gotten to the

954
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: point where, on one hand, I want this hard period

955
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: of my life to be over. But on the other hand,

956
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, Lord, like, I'm kind of

957
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: scared if if this ends, Like I know how forced

958
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: I am to rely on you every day for my manna, emotionally,

959
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: spiritually and physically sometimes and it has been so sweet.

960
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm telling you there's another side that's from last week

961
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: and this week. Even though it's hard, it is good

962
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: and you opened this up. I think the beginning of

963
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: last week's episode for our good in his glory.

964
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: Yes, and I would add to that, not only is

965
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: it good, but it's worth it. Yes, it doesn't feel

966
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 2: like it in the moment, but when you can get

967
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: to that their hope filled side that you're talking about, John,

968
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: you can look back and go that journey was worth it.

969
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: If that journey brings us closer in our relationship with Jesus,

970
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: it's so worth it. If that journey gives us greater

971
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 2: compassion for the suffering of our families and our neighbors,

972
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 2: worth it. If that journey teaches us more about ourselves

973
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 2: and our sinful nature and our need for a savior,

974
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: worth it. Yes, So, John, thank you. Thank you for

975
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: sharing out of your most painful trials to give us

976
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 2: a biblically based, hope filled perspective.

977
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you for having me.

978
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 2: Friends. We're going to include all the information about John,

979
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 2: his books, his resources, his podcast in the show notes

980
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 2: that you can find at doctor Michelle b dot com

981
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 2: and leave us a comment if you'd like John to

982
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 2: come back and share more. We want to know that too.

983
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: But what would be the greatest compliment is if you

984
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,919
Speaker 2: would consider sharing these two episodes with a friend in need.

985
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 2: We want to share the hope with those who need

986
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 2: to hear it, so that would be the greatest blessing

987
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: of all. I look forward to being with you next

988
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: week for another episode of your Hope Field perspective, and

989
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: until them, it's my prayer for you that you have

990
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 2: a hope filled week.

991
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 3: Would you like a prescription for treating your worry, fear,

992
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 3: and anxiety for God's promised peace? Are you anxious? Fearful,

993
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 3: intend to worry? You are not lone. An estimated forty

994
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 3: million Americans suffer with anxiety. But America isn't the only

995
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 3: country affected. It is rampant in every country, in every age.

996
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: What are our worries? Our children, jobs, homes, help, and

997
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: finances to name a few. Our fears are fed by

998
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 3: the news and social media, so that so many of

999
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 3: us are suffering with worry, fear, and anxiety more than

1000
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 3: ever before. We even fear missing out on what others have,

1001
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 3: and that leads to anxiety. Do we need to rid

1002
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 3: ourselves of the sources of anxiety? Not possible, but we

1003
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 3: do need to recognize that anxiety originates from a spiritual influence.

1004
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 3: When we do, then we can use the weapons of power, love,

1005
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 3: and a sound mind to fight back and live in

1006
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 3: God's Peace. Doctor Michelle Bankson's newly released book, Breaking Anxiety

1007
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 3: Script how to Reclaim the Peace God promises. Using biblical insights,

1008
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 3: personal anecdotes, and practical applications, she will help us identify

1009
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 3: where in our everyday life fear lurks, wory creeps, and

1010
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 3: anxiety seeks. Learn how to apply what God says about worry,

1011
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 3: fear and anxiety, and follow a biblically based prescription for

1012
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 3: reclaiming our power living in His perfect love using our

1013
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 3: sound mind to break anxiety script and find peace. Doctor

1014
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: Michelle shares her own story of emerging in the battle

1015
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 3: with anxiety, as well as the stories of others. She

1016
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 3: reminds us of our identity as a follower of Christ

1017
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,280
Speaker 3: and of the peace He promised us in spite of everything. Also,

1018
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 3: she provides tools to cope with the crushing emotional burden

1019
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 3: of anxiety now, and more importantly, she shows us how

1020
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 3: to reclaim God's peace as a way of life that

1021
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 3: we can break anxiety's grip. Listen to what doctor Saundra

1022
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 3: Dolphin Smith had to say about breaking anxiety's grip. Life

1023
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 3: is filled with changes which keep many in a constant

1024
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 3: state of Anxiety. In Breaking Anxiety's Grip, Doctor Michelle Bankson

1025
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: speaks intimately about her personal experience with fear and practically

1026
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 3: on how to replace it with the truth of God's word.

1027
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: Through an engaging use of scripture and powerful use of storytelling,

1028
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 3: Michelle invites us to exchange our persistent words with blasting peace.

1029
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 3: If you struggle with trusting God in the middle of

1030
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 3: challenging times, this book is for you. You can order

1031
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 3: your copy of Breaking Anxiety's Grip from any major book

1032
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 3: retailer or her website at doctor michelleb dot com. And

1033
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 3: while you're at it, how about picking up a copy

1034
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 3: for a friend and loved one. You can pursue freedom

1035
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:06,240
Speaker 3: from worry, fear, and anxiety together. Thank you for joining

1036
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 3: doctor Bankson to your hope build perspective. We hope you

1037
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 3: are encouraged by her authenticity, vulnerability, and biblical truths. If

1038
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 3: you enjoy today's conversation, when you take a moment right now,

1039
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 3: open up your podcast app and look for the subscribe

1040
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 3: button right next to our podcast profile image. We think

1041
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 3: this podcast is best enjoyed with friends, so tell a

1042
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 3: friend and click share in your podcast app and send

1043
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 3: a friend our link to share hope with them. If

1044
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 3: you have a comment, question, or suggest a topic for

1045
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 3: a future show, reach out to our staff at info

1046
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 3: at Hope Prevails dot org.

1047
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 4: For additional resources. Information about doctor Bankson's books where free downloads,

1048
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 4: or to contact her to speak at your next event,

1049
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 4: please visit doctor michelbe dot com. Until next time, May

1050
00:53:54,719 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 4: you have a hope filled week.

1051
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 2: To take just a second to thank the team at

1052
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: Life Audio for their partnership with us on this podcast.

1053
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens

1054
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 2: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got

1055
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 2: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.