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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: I had painted myself into a corner where it was like,

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Speaker 2: how how now do I get help myself without losing

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Speaker 2: everything that I've worked for. That was the story in

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Speaker 2: my mind, and I began desperately trying to control the outcome,

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Speaker 2: so like just figuring out how I could maybe go

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Speaker 2: to treatment and lie about it and all these things,

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Speaker 2: and that kind of culminated.

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Speaker 1: In my best way out was just suicide.

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Speaker 2: That was what I was thinking, and I ended up

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Speaker 2: writing a suicide note.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 3: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 3: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 3: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 3: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 1: But it's also a place of hope and healing.

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Speaker 3: I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became

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Speaker 3: an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today, I've found

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Speaker 3: sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,

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Speaker 3: I found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview

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Speaker 3: people just like you and just like me, along with

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Speaker 3: professionals in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery.

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Speaker 1: You will find the.

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Speaker 3: Peace that is available to you through Christ on the

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Speaker 3: other side of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction

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Speaker 3: that might be. Because let's face it, we're all addicted to.

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Speaker 1: Something so welcome.

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Speaker 3: Let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks

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Speaker 3: like to be on this journey of MESSI sanctification.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: I think that one of the greatest fears that so

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Speaker 3: many of us have, especially if we are Christians, and

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Speaker 3: I think especially if we are in addiction recovery, is

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Speaker 3: that we will become hypocrites. And I want to say

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Speaker 3: something that's going to sound controversial, but I don't think

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Speaker 3: it is. I want to normalize hypocrisy. Let me explain that.

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Speaker 3: I don't mean that I want to excuse hypocrisy. I

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Speaker 3: want to normalize it though, because here's the thing. We

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Speaker 3: are all hypocrites and like we can't live out our

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Speaker 3: faith perfectly.

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Speaker 1: There was one person who could do.

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Speaker 3: That, and so I think if we just concede that

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Speaker 3: we're gonna be hypocrites in our lives, what we will

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Speaker 3: do is we will actually live in more freedom. See

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Speaker 3: because what happens when we fear hypocrisy and think that, oh,

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Speaker 3: I can't be honest about where I'm struggling, I can't

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Speaker 3: be honest about where I'm failing or falling. We then

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Speaker 3: start living lies, and the Devil's like, I got you,

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Speaker 3: and I want that right. And then when we start

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Speaker 3: living in lies and when we start hiding things, that's

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Speaker 3: where he does some of his best work. That's gonna

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Speaker 3: be obvious to you when we talk with today's guest,

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Speaker 3: Jed Pain. Jed is a normal dude who struggled with

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Speaker 3: addiction his entire life, in fact, up until just this

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Speaker 3: last September, that is, despite the fact being a substance

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Speaker 3: abuse counselor despite having a sobriety and dediction podcast for

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Speaker 3: the last I think, I mean years, years and years.

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Speaker 3: And what happened is he started slipping and instead of

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Speaker 3: being honest about it, he started hiding it and started

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Speaker 3: living this double life. And he was so afraid of

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Speaker 3: being the hypocrite and exposed as the hypocrite that then

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Speaker 3: the devil used that to just hook him and get

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Speaker 3: him deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, and so

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Speaker 3: finally this last September, he said, I'm done, I'm done.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to come clean. I'm going to be honest

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Speaker 3: about it. And as he tells it, it is the

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Speaker 3: most freedom he has experienced. So I just want you

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Speaker 3: to hear like, the fear of hypocrisy, I think is

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Speaker 3: so much, so much greater than the freedom that is

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Speaker 3: found in honesty. Think about that, right, The fear of

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Speaker 3: hypocrisy is so much greater than the freedom that is

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Speaker 3: found in honesty. And that I think is Jed's message.

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Speaker 3: And he's someone who's still you know, he's still going

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Speaker 3: through it, like he's back in a sober living house.

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Speaker 1: And so I hope that you will just like I

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Speaker 1: hope that his.

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Speaker 3: Story gives you encouragement that telling the truth, if you're

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Speaker 3: listening to this right now, telling the truth is so

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Speaker 3: much better. He would have saved himself so many years

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Speaker 3: of heartache recently if he just would have told the truth.

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Speaker 3: So with that said, let's get into it with Jed Pain.

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Speaker 3: He's the host of the Church and Other Drugs podcasts,

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Speaker 3: and I think he brings a level of vulnerability that

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Speaker 3: we all need. Jed Pain. Jed, thank you so much

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Speaker 3: for joining the Confessions of a Christian alcoholic podcast. It's

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Speaker 3: great to have you on. I've been on your podcast

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Speaker 3: and now we get to flip and turn the tables

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Speaker 3: my friend.

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Speaker 2: Yes, dude, thanks for having me on. It is nice

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Speaker 2: to not be in the driver's seat sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, you can just be like I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to answer questions this time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yeah, it's it's you know, it's interesting. I

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Speaker 3: had someone reach out to me a few weeks ago

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Speaker 3: and they're like, hey, could you have more men on

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Speaker 3: your podcast? And I think what is interesting and maybe

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Speaker 3: you found this is that generally women do tend to

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Speaker 3: be more open about the recovery stories. So when I

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Speaker 3: find a fellow brother who is willing to talk about it,

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Speaker 3: I think it's good and important.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, have you found that, Yeah, well I've so.

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Speaker 2: In in the like therapeutic space, professionally, men are extremely

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Speaker 2: rare number. So that's yeah, that part is true, Uh,

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Speaker 2: telling their story. It's I've found that there's like that

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Speaker 2: new wave of I don't even know what you want

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Speaker 2: to call it, like brow therapy, where like it's a

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Speaker 2: lot of like for some reason, the new thing is

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Speaker 2: like Navy like ex Navy seals going on and like

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Speaker 2: be like, I guess they consider talking about their feelings,

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Speaker 2: like how they cleared the house in Afghanistan or something.

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Speaker 1: But I felt like, and I'll.

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Speaker 2: Get men the vulnerable part. It's like there's certain parts

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Speaker 2: of stories that I've found that most people are fine telling,

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Speaker 2: but I guess it is more rare to hear men

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Speaker 2: talk about like It's like they can talk about the

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Speaker 2: external events, I guess, but like what was going on

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Speaker 2: inside at the time, It's probably less of a subject

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Speaker 2: and they may just not have the emotional language. Yeah

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Speaker 2: to say it, I mean most or not most. You know,

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Speaker 2: I always pain with broad brushes, but generationally, for sure,

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Speaker 2: this is probably the first and second like generation in

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Speaker 2: a while, from like going back from like World War Two,

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Speaker 2: where men were more encouraged to actually like go to

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Speaker 2: therapy and actually do something about their their own stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I want to go back to something

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Speaker 3: you said he said about the it listen. I have

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Speaker 3: nothing against Navy seals having podcasts and stuff, but it's

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Speaker 3: something that I can't remember if I talked about this

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Speaker 3: on your podcast at all. But I'm going to hopefully

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Speaker 3: write an article on it soon or maybe by the

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Speaker 3: time this comes out, it'll be out. But I call

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Speaker 3: it the militarization of manhood. And where that has been

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Speaker 3: come like the thing right is like and I think

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Speaker 3: where there's a there's a place for that. I think

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Speaker 3: a lot of men are being told that in order

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Speaker 3: to be a man, it looks like, Hey, you're gonna

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Speaker 3: go on and retreat. You're gonna sit in the ocean

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Speaker 3: in twenty degrees until you're frigid and be told man out,

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Speaker 3: man out, man up, and and again. Like there are

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Speaker 3: some people who respond to that, but yet I think

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Speaker 3: we're being kind of flooded with well, that's that's what

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Speaker 3: manhood looks like, right, And I think in some ways

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Speaker 3: it's leaving a lot of people behind, and it's sending

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Speaker 3: a wrong message that that's the only way that manhood

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Speaker 3: looks like, you know.

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Speaker 2: For sure, and almost all in all cases of those things,

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Speaker 2: if you just trace the line, they're selling something like

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Speaker 2: either they're selling that camp that like ten thousand dollars yep,

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Speaker 2: man experience. There's a really great like it's so good

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Speaker 2: that at first I was like, oh my god, here

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Speaker 2: we go another one. But there's an incredible parody account

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Speaker 2: of one of those like man camp things, and it's

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Speaker 2: like it's so good because it's like you can barely

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Speaker 2: tell it's parody, but it's just like, yeah, it's so funny, dude,

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Speaker 2: like everyone involved his comedians and it's just and then

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Speaker 2: he responds in the comments like like, it's real. I

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Speaker 2: can't remember the name of it. It's kind of worthless

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Speaker 2: to bring up. But it was so funny. It's like

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Speaker 2: Alpha something, Alpha Camp or something like that. It's so funny. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because it's ridiculous. It's like, it's so ridiculous, and it's

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Speaker 2: like that's it almost goes back to like Wild at

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Speaker 2: Heart if you take the Christian and wasn't that.

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Speaker 1: The Christian John ebook on Christian Manhood.

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Speaker 3: Which which by the way, I'm not again, I'm not against,

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Speaker 3: Like I've read Wild at Heart, and there are things

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Speaker 3: in there that I.

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Speaker 1: Think are great. I think for sure.

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Speaker 3: Where I where I think it goes off the rails

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Speaker 3: is to say that's the only expression or that's the

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Speaker 3: only way, or you know, you're not truly wanting to

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Speaker 3: invest in your family if you're not going off into

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Speaker 3: the woods or coming to this man camp like you said,

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Speaker 3: buying my Thing, which is like, now you're selling me supplements,

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Speaker 3: you know, yes, and and and like you know, placenta blood,

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Speaker 3: you know. And I got to like bathe in this

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Speaker 3: and do like seven cold plunges a day, and I'm.

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Speaker 1: Like, sorry, I hate cold plunges. You're ever gonna do one?

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Speaker 1: So I'm sorry, But what's that Cold plunges are nice though.

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Speaker 3: I'm and I like, I have friends who do it,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, dude, cold plunge away. I grew up

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Speaker 3: in Wisconsin and I'm like everybody I took was a

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Speaker 3: cold plunge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So anyways, I'm I'm I'm off on a tangent. If

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Speaker 3: you're listening to this and you love man camp, do it,

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Speaker 3: go ahead.

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Speaker 1: I love that for.

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Speaker 3: You, But it's not the only thing, right, and it's

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Speaker 3: not the only way. And to your point, I think

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Speaker 3: ultimately where we were going with this is often I

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Speaker 3: think those camps, those places, those form that formula doesn't

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Speaker 3: push what I call and what you and I have

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Speaker 3: talked about radical vulnerability. Right, it's still just a let's

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Speaker 3: white knuckle it or let's just brow our way to

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Speaker 3: better husbandry, to better dads, right, And I think what

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Speaker 3: we really need to do is practice radical vulnerability and

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Speaker 3: be open and be willing to talk about our crap, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about that's yeah, and that's probably where I

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Speaker 2: would land is like, cause I'll go back and forth

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Speaker 2: so many times too about like I really push back

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Speaker 2: against the over like the use of therapy speak.

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Speaker 1: I'll call it in like out of context settings.

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Speaker 2: So I do these all these go back weird back

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Speaker 2: and forth of like it ain't always about like my

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Speaker 2: mom didn't hug me enough. But where I think where

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Speaker 2: I'm landing more and I'm figuring out is my style

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Speaker 2: is like but if I truly just kind of say

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Speaker 2: exactly what I was gonna say, exactly what happened, but

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Speaker 2: exactly what I perceived to happen in my life. You know,

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Speaker 2: memory is not a record, right, it's an interpretation. Then

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Speaker 2: you can't really that I want to say it can't

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Speaker 2: be a bad thing, but it's like that is my

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Speaker 2: lived experience and that just is what it is. So

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Speaker 2: it's not it's so far it hasn't bitten me too bad.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's really come back to haunt me

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Speaker 2: yet like us. Time will tell, But yeah, that seems

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Speaker 2: to be what I'm kind of doing with the things

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Speaker 2: that I've been through.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought that up because I think I've

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Speaker 3: had conversations with family members about this where I've I

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Speaker 3: try to draw a distinction and I'm not saying I

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Speaker 3: always do it perfectly, but where I say, you know,

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Speaker 3: they're like, wow, but what about this and what about this?

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, yes, you are right. You were doing

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Speaker 3: the best you could. You were doing the hardest thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, life was hard, and yet I still experienced

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Speaker 3: it this way and it still affected me this way.

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Speaker 3: That is not saying you are an awful person. That

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Speaker 3: is not saying that you weren't trying to protect me

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Speaker 3: from X, Y and Z, but this still happened or

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Speaker 3: this is still how my six seven eight year old

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Speaker 3: brain perceived it, and that still affected me through my life.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's hard to draw that distinction with people.

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Speaker 3: But I love that you brought that up, even just

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Speaker 3: saying like, this is my perception of what happened, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, because it's it's it's important a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Attach or like just assume that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's like my favorite game now is to

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Speaker 2: be like hey, mom and dad, like this is what

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Speaker 2: I remember, Like this memory popped up, like what do

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Speaker 2: you remember? And then I'll ask my sister too, and

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Speaker 2: all of us almost always have a different recollection of

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Speaker 2: what exactly happened. But for me, that memory is like

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Speaker 2: informing like current things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and like that that's where.

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Speaker 2: That's where it becomes like your responsibility as an adult

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Speaker 2: to do something about it. And that's that's where my

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Speaker 2: getting irritated at therapy speak and things like being triggered

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Speaker 2: and stuff. It's like, yeah, that's all well and good,

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Speaker 2: but as a fully formed adult human, it's everyone else

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Speaker 2: is not responsible for my emotional damage.

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Speaker 1: Like it's up to me now to sort of do

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Speaker 1: something about it.

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Speaker 2: I can't be up set at other people for not

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Speaker 2: knowing what I went through, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, that's just there's a impossible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a phrase that I like and and I

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Speaker 3: didn't come up with it. But it's like, I'm not

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Speaker 3: responsible for what happened to me, but I am responsible

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Speaker 3: for how I react and what I do with that, right, right,

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Speaker 3: And so part of me and continuing to go to

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Speaker 3: therapy is is you know, I don't harbor resentments toward

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Speaker 3: people in my childhood, but I do need to work

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Speaker 3: on how those have informed my reactions to when my

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Speaker 3: wife says something right and it brings me back. Right, Okay, right,

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Speaker 3: I'm working on that, right. I want to have a

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Speaker 3: better reaction. So yeah, good man, great, great, great conversation

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Speaker 3: in the first ten minutes. I'm glad you're recording this.

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Speaker 3: But okay, So for people who don't now you're the

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Speaker 3: host of Church and Other Drugs podcasts, but introduce and

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Speaker 3: not you know, talk a little bit about you in

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Speaker 3: the intro. But I love to have people introduce themselves

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Speaker 3: because I think we talked about what we say about

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Speaker 3: ourselves is important. So I love for you to introduce

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Speaker 3: yourself to the audience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my name is Jed Payne.

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Speaker 2: I've been doing the Church and Other Drugs podcast for

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Speaker 2: In December, it'll be ten years, which is insane.

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Speaker 1: Wow, it's a long time.

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Speaker 2: I am a new father of a two year old daughter, engaged.

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Speaker 2: I am an artist, musician, podcaster, ridiculous, movie historian, buff hobbyist,

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Speaker 2: whatever you.

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Speaker 1: Want to call it. I love all things like nerd culture,

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Speaker 1: star wars. Yeah, I'm in.

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Speaker 2: I am a substance abuse counselor by trade. I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of going back and finishing my schooling to kind of

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Speaker 2: widen up what I'm able to do as far as

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Speaker 2: therapy and counseling.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of I.

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Speaker 2: Know my calling is helping people in one way or another,

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Speaker 2: and most likely it's going to be addicts. But I

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Speaker 2: did the residential treatment grind, working as a impatient rehab

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Speaker 2: counselor for six years, and that's very brutal on a person.

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Speaker 2: It's a tough, tough gig. So I'm sort of taking

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Speaker 2: a break from that while I finished school. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: kind of the short.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So two things that come out of that that I

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Speaker 3: want to ask you about. A. I want you to

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Speaker 3: explain the name of your podcast, Church and Other Drugs,

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Speaker 3: And then two for and it's not because I don't

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Speaker 3: believe you, it's because I believe you, and I want

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Speaker 3: people to understand why is it such a grind to

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Speaker 3: be an impatient treatment counselor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So Church and Other Drugs came about as me

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Speaker 2: and it originally we had two hosts. It was me

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Speaker 2: and my buddy John. We were old using buddies from

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Speaker 2: middle school. And then he got sober and then I

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Speaker 2: got sober, like a decade after him, and we were

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Speaker 2: both progressive Christians I'll call on I guess we were

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Speaker 2: both Christians who were kind of going through this was

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Speaker 2: like the height of the deconstruction movement, especially around podcasting,

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Speaker 2: and so we were both Christians, and we were both

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Speaker 2: in twelve step fellowships like AA, and so we realized

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Speaker 2: that both of those organizations had a lot to learn

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Speaker 2: from each other and some both of them did some

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Speaker 2: things right and the other one did some things wrong

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Speaker 2: and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: So we wanted to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: And then also, I've just been to so many rehabs

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Speaker 2: and I've met so many people, so many interesting people

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Speaker 2: that have way more interesting stories than like half of

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Speaker 2: the celebrity guests I've ever heard on things. I was like,

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Speaker 2: we'll just have all the people I've met on to

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Speaker 2: tell their stories. So that's kind of where that came from.

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Speaker 2: So the counseling, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, right, it's simple.

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Speaker 2: It's like you have to, especially if you're someone that

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Speaker 2: personally struggles with addiction. Just picture uh, day in day out,

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Speaker 2: having to deal with eight of you. I mean like it's, uh,

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Speaker 2: it gets tough. So it's it's because it's the nature

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Speaker 2: of the beast is kind of brutal, where it's like

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Speaker 2: you'll do intensive work on someone, you'll have like a caseload.

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Speaker 2: If you're lucky, you'll have like a caseload of ten uh,

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Speaker 2: if you're unlucky, up to like twenty. And so you're

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Speaker 2: working with someone from their worst day ever, and then

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Speaker 2: thirty days later you get like, awesome, You're you're doing great.

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Speaker 2: They leave on a high note, and then usually that

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Speaker 2: same day you get a brand new absolute wreck, and

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Speaker 2: so there's no real like sense of like, oh, job

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Speaker 2: well done. I can kind of relax for a second.

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Speaker 2: It's just kind of like constant. It's very consistent. They die,

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Speaker 2: they often die. That gets very difficult probably like trauma

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Speaker 2: er people, military law enforcement, and like addiction professionals. I

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Speaker 2: would say deal with the most death. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: almost like you don't become numb to it. That's the

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Speaker 2: wrong thing, because you'll still get shocked. But it's just

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Speaker 2: very much like wow, okay, the just the amount, the

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Speaker 2: sheer numbers of people that you personally get to know

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Speaker 2: and then you have to see them die, and then

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Speaker 2: the questions of like how much of that is my responsibility?

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Speaker 2: How much of that is not and of course it's

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Speaker 2: like early on you have to remember that you didn't

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Speaker 2: cause it, and you can't cure it. You can't you

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Speaker 2: didn't cause it, you can't control it, you can't cure it.

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Speaker 2: Those are the big unmovables. And for me, what makes

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Speaker 2: me a good therapist is I am very empathetic and

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Speaker 2: I'm very.

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Speaker 1: Able to.

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Speaker 2: Sort of shoulder people's stuff, which is also a huge

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Speaker 2: problem where I take it home with me. And it's

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Speaker 2: very much a thing where like you're never if you

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Speaker 2: don't have clear boundaries, which I was not very good at,

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Speaker 2: you never really clock out. And since I also was

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Speaker 2: in the recovery program myself, it became very dicey when

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Speaker 2: I started going through my own own struggles and then

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Speaker 2: I'm like blending my professional life and it just got

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Speaker 2: very convoluted, and it's it's just it's like a war

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Speaker 2: of attrition a lot of ways. And if you're and

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Speaker 2: the nature of the beast, A lot of treatment centers

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Speaker 2: are not healthy work environments. A lot of them are.

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Speaker 2: There are some great ones. It's kind of just like churches.

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Speaker 2: Some of them just are not. And if you find

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Speaker 2: yourself in a very unsupportive, kind of toxic work environment.

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Speaker 2: It's just gonna be pretty difficult, especially if you can't

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Speaker 2: figure out a good way to take care of yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that. Appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: And you kind of started to allude to your story,

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Speaker 3: and I think you have a really important one, a

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Speaker 3: good one, you know, ups, downs, restarts, and so I

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Speaker 3: would love for you to take us through jet Pain's

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Speaker 3: confessions story.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll it's obviously an extremely long one. In the

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Speaker 2: what I the recent events are probably the what are

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Speaker 2: more important to me now, I guess that's how it works.

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Speaker 2: But to to kind of bring it up to speed

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Speaker 2: to when we'll call it when I got sober in

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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: So I was raised in.

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Speaker 2: A Southern Presbyterian in Columbia, South Carolina or small easily

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Speaker 2: South Carolina if anybody knows where that is no idea,

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Speaker 2: And but parents are both married.

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Speaker 1: They were. My mom was a lifelong Christian.

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Speaker 2: I think my dad was part of the Jesus movement

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Speaker 2: of the college campuses in the seventies, so he was

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Speaker 2: a later convert.

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Speaker 1: They were always married. They never touched substances or anything.

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Speaker 1: Like that. I have one older sister. I was childhood

400
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Speaker 1: was awesome.

401
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Speaker 2: I had a super active imagination, and I was overly emotional.

402
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Speaker 1: I'm overly.

403
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Speaker 2: I was a very emotional kid, and I took things

404
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Speaker 2: very heavily. And just one of the earlier things I remember,

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Speaker 2: and now I've come to understand it like an offshoot

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Speaker 2: of OCD, where I was very very concerned with going

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Speaker 2: to Hell. I mean as a as a very very

408
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Speaker 2: young kid, very concerned with whether or not I was

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Speaker 2: saved and not understanding, uh why some people went to

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Speaker 2: Hell and some people didn't. And I was very scared

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Speaker 2: that I was gonna go to Hell. So I would

412
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Speaker 2: excuse me obsessively say the Sinner's prayer, I mean like

413
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Speaker 2: that was like my prayer every night, and always asking

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Speaker 2: my mom if I was saved, and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Which we call scrupulosity. It's scrupulosity, yep, yep.

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Speaker 2: And then the next kind of spiritual thing I remember was.

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Speaker 1: Like having so like as like a younger kid.

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Speaker 2: And this is another thing through therapy I've come to

419
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Speaker 2: find out is extremely common of just like kids engaging

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Speaker 2: in like same sex play with other same age kids.

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Speaker 1: And I remember sharing that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is I mean I was young, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, two three, four five, something like that. And

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Speaker 2: and this is another one where it's I couldn't tell

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Speaker 2: you if it's exactly what I was told, but what

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00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 2: I heard was that all that kind of sexual stuff

427
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: is extremely sinful and dirty and gross, and God hates

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Speaker 2: that and don't do that.

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Speaker 1: And so that started.

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Speaker 2: And then I grew into the purity culture movement of

431
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: the youth group culture of the late nineties early aughts,

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Speaker 2: you know, bringing an apple and saying this is, do

433
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Speaker 2: you want to give your husband and a whole apple

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Speaker 2: or an apple core? And every time, you know, every time, yeah,

435
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: And they would only say that to girls, which is yeah,

436
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: the guys it didn't matter. I guess every time you

437
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: do something, you're taking a bite out of your apple,

438
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: and that sort of thing, and how sexual sin above

439
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: all was the worst thing possible.

440
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 1: And so that is what I believed. And so all

441
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: this so.

442
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: Like of age, like going through puberty having this idea

443
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: about sex and guilt and never really being sat down

444
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 2: and given i'll call it like a healthy sex talk.

445
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: It was more we went into youth group and they

446
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 2: divided the guys and the girls, and they brought some

447
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 2: dude to tell all the guys about everything and like

448
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: masturbation and all that stuff, and just very confused. What

449
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: I figured out though, and I so around twelve, I

450
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: think was the first time I like smoked a cigarette

451
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 2: and then smoked weed with a preacher's kid. That's how

452
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: it always that's the classic story too, those pks.

453
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: Those PK's man.

454
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: And it really was just to fit in because I

455
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: also had like intense anxiety. And yeah, shortly after that,

456
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: I realized that I could do drug and have guilt free,

457
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: like sexual experiences, and so that was really what kind

458
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: of drove my early drug use. It was a combination

459
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: of that and my parents started drug testing me really

460
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: early because they found out I smoked weed, and like

461
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: in a twist of irony, that just pushed me towards

462
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: harder things that wouldn't show up on a drug test.

463
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: And I also had this this weird I mean, I

464
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: guess it's not weird, but I had this idea because

465
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: I went I I mean, I had my first overdose

466
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: on benadryl when I was fifteen, and like that was

467
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: my first hospital experience that I got put in an

468
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: outpatient program. So I went like ridiculously hard at it

469
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: very early, and part of it was this idea that

470
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: I had that and I guess in retrospect it's just

471
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: like a rat. I don't know what it was, but

472
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: saying like, well, obviously I'm not going to drugs my

473
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: whole life because I'm a Christian, so I'm just gonna

474
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: get it all out of my system on the forefront,

475
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: that was really this weird idea I had. And so

476
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: by the time I was seventeen, I had already done

477
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: outpatient failed that my drug use was escalating. I got

478
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: introduced to cocaine on my fifteenth birthday, so that was

479
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: when I finally started like stealing to get drugs. It

480
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: was going really quick, and so they put me on

481
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: a waiting list to go to an impatient place. In

482
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: the first place we went to was a faith based

483
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: treatment center in North Carolina. And while it was like

484
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: a four month waiting list, and while I was on

485
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: the waiting list, I tried heroin because I knew once again,

486
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: I was like, well, I'm about to quit, so might

487
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: as well try heroin.

488
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: That was really my I really, so I would also.

489
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: Since I was a kid, I would like latch onto

490
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: identity of either like movie characters or musicians that I liked.

491
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: And so as a teenager, that same thing happened.

492
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: And I watched like Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

493
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: and started listening to Modest Mouse and Pink Floyd and.

494
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: That was what I chased.

495
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: And literally I was like, well, I've never done heroin,

496
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm about to go to treatment, so

497
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: might as well. And but I was just gonna snort it.

498
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, the person I got it from just convinced

499
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: me to shoot it. And so by the time I

500
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: got to that treatment center, I'd been shooting heroin and cocaine.

501
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: So that was.

502
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: The escalation. And so it was a faith based place.

503
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: There was no twelve step program about it. And like

504
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: they did an exorcism on me, like deliverance class.

505
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: It was very very fundamentalist.

506
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: Extremely Yeah, like we had to go to chapel for

507
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: three hours. We were like a traveling men's choir. It

508
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: was like I was seventeen, and it was like a

509
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: bunch of like like hardened felons in there.

510
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: But it was like.

511
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: It was that was an experience for sure. Yeah, I

512
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: had some fond and funny memories there. It was super scary,

513
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: but I think it was probably setting me up, Like

514
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: going to that type of place first probably definitely set

515
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: me up to at least be able to kind of

516
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: find out what you can tolerate, what you can handle.

517
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: So I thought I was good, and when I got home, like,

518
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: I relapsed within a week.

519
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: And so then this what.

520
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: She really that It is like like because my sister

521
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: too a very similar program and as soon as she

522
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: came back she I mean it was I don't know

523
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: if it was a week, but it might as well

524
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: have been.

525
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: How old was she same age? Oh, okay, that's that's

526
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: what I think. You So I really buy into the

527
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: frontal prefrontal cortex formation. So like your your uh four

528
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: brain doesn't quit developing until now. I think they even

529
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: kicked it up to like twenty six to thirty. Yeah,

530
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: but your yeah, you're decision making, your consequence regulation, all that,

531
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: all that stuff.

532
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: It's my favorite.

533
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: Sort of meta biological thing that we do without thinking

534
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: about it when we make a stupid decision. We do

535
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: that and you're literally slapping your fore brain, which is

536
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 2: the part of the brain that makes the decision it's

537
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: just one of those weird, funny idiosyncrasies. So I think

538
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: I was just like way too, that was nowhere near

539
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: done number one and then number two. I had no

540
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: tools other than God has delivered you, so you're good.

541
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: You shouldn't want it anymore, you know. It was that

542
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: sort of attitude.

543
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 3: Which when you're in that environment with all those people,

544
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 3: it's fine. Yeah, it's easier to say that. Yeah, I

545
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: feel like, I mean, the temptation's not here, yep, it

546
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 3: must have yeah, yep.

547
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: And it was. I remember too, when I got home.

548
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: All it was was like I opened the refrigerator and

549
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: there was some whipped cream and I just sucked the

550
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: nitress out of it. And I was like, oh, that

551
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: was all it took. It wasn't even really like a

552
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: there wasn't even much of a fight against it.

553
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 1: And so really this is so from two thousand.

554
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: So then I went on ran away from home, like

555
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: started really becoming an ivy drug addict. And that was

556
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 2: when the human body is so resilient, like that was

557
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: I was shooting up like alcohol, like shooting up liquor

558
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:15,479
Speaker 2: crack he injecting liquor mm hmm. So you just become Yeah,

559
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: you just become addicted to the process of shooting things up.

560
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: And so it's like.

561
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: And part of just being I guess insane. It was

562
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: like when I couldn't find anything else, you just start

563
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: to wonder, like, well, what else can I inject? And yeah,

564
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: liquor alcohol you can most definitely just inject. It's not uh,

565
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: it's not the greatest. It was sometimes just like a

566
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: party trick, I guess of just like hey, uh yeah. Anyway,

567
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: that was a short lived, yeah, and so that it

568
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: ended so bad that I got sent to a long

569
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: term treatment center in Louisiana in two thousand and five

570
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: from South Carolina, and so from there it started from

571
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, I mean until twenty fourteen, but

572
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: really then, I guess you could say until from two

573
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: thousand and five until twenty twenty.

574
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: Five, I was just in and out of treatment centers.

575
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 2: I mean I went to so what would happen Because

576
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 2: I was seventeen, so I never I didn't start out

577
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 2: with any sort of like job or savings or any

578
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: of that. So I was pretty much financially dependent on

579
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: my parents. So I would get sent to these treatment centers.

580
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: I would do great I would get out either like

581
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: move into a sober living home or move into a

582
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: house with someone I was in treatment with. I would

583
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: make it usually three months, three four months, and then relapse.

584
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 2: And all of my relapses at that time it wasn't

585
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 2: It wasn't like, oh, I'm just like drinking some beers.

586
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: I mean they would end in absolute catastrophes. I've I

587
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: had eight hospitalized overdoses. I was in a coma for

588
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: four days carrecks. I didn't get arrested until I was

589
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: twenty five, So I made it a good long time

590
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: without getting arrested. But so I would call my parents

591
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: and they would call the treatment centers what should we do,

592
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: and of course send them back to treatment. So I

593
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: mean I went to Texas, California, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Carolina,

594
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: all over Florida like and I got caught in the

595
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: worst period. I guess it's still kind of is. But

596
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: at the Florida drug treatment in those days was just

597
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: so terrible, and they would do like patient broker ring,

598
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: which is just basically where like it's called like the

599
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: Florida shuffle, where you just go to a sober living house,

600
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 2: the bill your insurance relapse, They'll send you to another

601
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 2: one bill your insurance.

602
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: I mean I did that four years.

603
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 2: And I like to sum up like my behavior and

604
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: the type of addict I was back then. I mean

605
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: I would there was a long stretch of time when

606
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 2: I would self injure to get pain pills, like I've

607
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: set my hand on like I burned my hand down

608
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 2: to the like a third degree burned to go to

609
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: the emergency room to get pain pills. I had broken

610
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: my arm and I would just like hit it with

611
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: a baseball bat to make it red again to go

612
00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: to the So just like an absolute train wreck of

613
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: an addict. And you know, I wasn't allowed back home.

614
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: Didn't really know what to do. I mean, because now

615
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: it's you know, fast forward to like twenty thirteen.

616
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:13,479
Speaker 1: I've just been doing.

617
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: Oh, Like I finally got arrested in twenty eleven, I

618
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: think it was something like that twelve, And that was

619
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: the first time I went to prison, And that was

620
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: like then just six months, and I got a deferred sentence,

621
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: a ten year deferred sentence. I just had to complete

622
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: five years of probation, which is probably what kept me

623
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: in some boundaries also, But that was so I Uh.

624
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: When I got out, I stayed sober for a year

625
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: in a sober living house.

626
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: But I had.

627
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: That was probably the time, I, I would say, the

628
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: only time that God like divinely removed the obsession to

629
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: use from me, like I just did not like I

630
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: was done. But what I did with that was sort

631
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: of get pretty arrogant about it.

632
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: And I wasn't.

633
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: Working a program, and then I started doing drunk things

634
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: sober like they say, like I got probably like a

635
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 2: really unhealthy relationship.

636
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: With porn.

637
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: Swapping addictions, swapping addictions and ended up relapsing like I

638
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: always do, and just same story. I ended up in

639
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, met this girl in the program in AA.

640
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: We went to treatment and relapsed together like three different times.

641
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: We finally found our way to a story, right, dude,

642
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: I know it was. It was the addicts love story.

643
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 2: The first time I met her mom was to meet

644
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: us at the pawn shop to get our laptop out like.

645
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: Awful.

646
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: Uh. And so then in twenty fourteen, you know, I

647
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 2: showed up to a treatment center in Lafayette and I

648
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: was still on probation. I was living in my car

649
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 2: that had a title loan on it. My parents were

650
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: just like you can get sober or not, like that's whatever,

651
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: like we're still you know, good luck, And I'd burned

652
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: every the last bridge, Like really, what was like?

653
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: God? I had a good good friend.

654
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 2: I mean this dude put his house up to bond

655
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: me out of jail one time, and I tried to.

656
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: I stole a check from him and I tried to

657
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: cash it and the bank called it and they were

658
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: like they just said, yeah, he says you should go

659
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: see him. And I went to his house and he

660
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: was just crying. He was like I wish I could

661
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: beat your ass right now, but you can't come around anymore.

662
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: That was one of the I was like, okay, like

663
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: this is you are an.

664
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 2: Absolute, like you've got to do something.

665
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: So I finally got sober, and what did that really?

666
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was just I just finally did all the

667
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 2: stuff they had been telling me to do. I Number one,

668
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: I think I had a real surrender moment to God,

669
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: to where I was like I can't you know, I

670
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: cannot do this, Like You're going to have to help me.

671
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: I Also, this is where I think I had had

672
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: that brain switch, because I do remember being able to

673
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: have a little bit more sane, thinking around like maybe

674
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 2: you shouldn't do this, and I I just I moved

675
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 2: into a sober living house. I got a minimum wage job.

676
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: I was bringing meetings to treatment centers. I was sponsoring guys.

677
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: I was in a men's book study, started attending church again.

678
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: I started playing music in the praise band. I'm a drummer,

679
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 2: just doing everything that I could to stay sober, like

680
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: protecting my sobriety as much as I could. And me

681
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 2: and that girl ended up getting married. I think we

682
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: got engaged when we were a year sober, and we

683
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: got married when we were two years sober.

684
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: And that was when around twenty.

685
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: Sixteen was when I started was when I was like,

686
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 2: I think I want to become a counselor and started

687
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: doing the work that you had to do for that,

688
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: which was become a counselor in training and start getting

689
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: intern Basically.

690
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 3: Had you at this point had you started to really

691
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 3: do you feel like at least gotten to the root

692
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: yet or was it more just I know, I got

693
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 3: to get sober.

694
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 1: I know I got to stop.

695
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 3: I'm going to do you, you know, start doing some

696
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 3: of the work. But had you really kind of done

697
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 3: the heart level excavation.

698
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: Yet we'll be right back after this.

699
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: I think my heart level excavation was realizing that I

700
00:44:51,760 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 2: am a biological drug addict that has completely giving up

701
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: his right to a chemical peace of mind, is how

702
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: the Big Book puts it. So like I had done,

703
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: there was there. I do remember that time. That was

704
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 2: the first time on a fourth step, which is where

705
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: you write down list of persons you had harmed and

706
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 2: resentments and things like that. That and then the fifth

707
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: step is you tell that to someone. That was the

708
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 2: first time I had told someone about the childhood sexual

709
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: trauma we'll call it. And that may have been a

710
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: turning point for me. But but really and truly I

711
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: think I had I had been looking for this kind

712
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: of silver bullet thing that well, I will say also,

713
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 2: I think for the first time in a long time,

714
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 2: I was properly psychiatrically medicated A and I hate I

715
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: don't know why. I hate to admit it, but I've

716
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: always battled with that, like whether or not my which

717
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: I guess we'll get to my psychological issues were strictly

718
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 2: drug induced, like it's chicken and egg sort of thing.

719
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: But I have done such chemical attrition to my brain

720
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 2: that it kind of makes sense that I probably that's

721
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: just something that is in the cards for me, at

722
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: least for for whatever.

723
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: So so I started some internal work. You start getting

724
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 1: into some of these.

725
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, like I had, I had done intense

726
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: internal work. But I think what was more there were

727
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: two things. The the realization of that it's it's not

728
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 2: gonna be something that I suddenly realized, it's gonna be.

729
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: A daily thing that I have to do.

730
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: There are just certain things that I'm gonna have to

731
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: do daily, very simple things, trust God, clean house, help others,

732
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: like just I have to keep doing that every day.

733
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: That's gonna be my medicine. The second thing was realizing that.

734
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: I could apply my Christian faith to twelve step recovery,

735
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 2: like just lay it on top and it was just

736
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: a practical guide to living out a Christian life. And

737
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: that was a big eye opener for me because I

738
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: had pushed against that for a long time. I had

739
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: thought it was like heresy and blah blah blah blah

740
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: blah because they use the word higher power and all

741
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: this crap. That was just keeping me from having to

742
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: do anything.

743
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: Really.

744
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: But when I just kind of had this aha moment

745
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: of like, oh, yeah, this is just so I think

746
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: I just started taking my faith more seriously and I

747
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: started actually.

748
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: It was a bunch of it.

749
00:47:54,719 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: I also was like really really tired of having nothing

750
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 2: and being at the bottom of the barrel. Like I

751
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 2: was just like kind of over it. I mean like

752
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: I'd been homeless and it was just like I'm those

753
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: that last year of using was just so terrible, and

754
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: it was like, I it's almost like I wasn't permitted

755
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: to die. I was just living in this miserable existence

756
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 2: of just waking up dope sick and trying to panhandle

757
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: enough money to go to a to Walmart to steal

758
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 2: DVDs to go sell them, to go get dope and

759
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 2: rinse and repeat. I mean I did that just every

760
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: single day. It was terrible, just super super terrible, and

761
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: so I became I ended up becoming a counselor.

762
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: And.

763
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: We were married, and.

764
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: I think three years into the marriage, I found out

765
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: that she had been smoking weed for like six months

766
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: in secret that I had no idea.

767
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: I had no idea, and so that.

768
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 2: Was the first kind of crack in my recovery.

769
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: Because it was like her and a.

770
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 2: Fair amount of other people that I had gotten sober

771
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: with all sort of just started using normally I'll call it,

772
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: like drinking and smoking weed.

773
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: And just like.

774
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, those of us that actually were

775
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: still working the program became fewer and fewer, and I

776
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 2: think I did start to become bitter, Like I'd been

777
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 2: working so hard to be a counselor and I finally

778
00:49:54,280 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 2: got there, and it was kind of rough, know then

779
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 2: it was like like I was kind of not understanding.

780
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: I think I was. I was trying to.

781
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: Get more from it than I than was realistic, like

782
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 2: kind of starting to get resentful that God, like, hey,

783
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: I'm like taking care of your kids, So why am

784
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: I so depressed?

785
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: So why is my marriage falling apart? So? Why this?

786
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 3: So?

787
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: Why that?

788
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: Just starting to get very very bitter, And then this

789
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 2: hurricane of bad things of like of events happened to

790
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: where two of my best friends and like some of

791
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: my main like accountability, they moved, marriages falling apart, COVID

792
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: was beginning to happen. So no more meetings, no more

793
00:50:53,920 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: being accountable, spending a lot more time at home. And

794
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: at some point during that I got the idea that

795
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: I needed to be on adderall, so I and I

796
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 2: like ran it through all the proper channels, even though

797
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 2: deep down I knew it was a bad idea. If

798
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 2: I'm honest, I think I was just so I was

799
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: looking for something because I was so dissatisfied with my

800
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 2: life at the time.

801
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this snowballed into.

802
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 2: So then I'm like on adderall and I'm a little

803
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: too keyed up, and so I was like, well, I

804
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: need something to kind of bring me back down.

805
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: And so there's some like.

806
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 2: Legal gray area drugs that you can order online. Started

807
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 2: doing those, I started doing Kreatom again. Then I'm stopping

808
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: by the casino on the way home from work.

809
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: Then I'm fully addicted to slot machines again. Uh.

810
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 2: Then I ended up losing a ton of money. Then

811
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 2: I'm physically dependent on cretum. And while all of this

812
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: is going on, I'm still working as a counselor.

813
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: And this is where and doing the Where you doing

814
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: the podcast at this point?

815
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I had still been doing the podcast too,

816
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: And so this was where I sort of had painted

817
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: in my mind. I'd painted myself into a corner where

818
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:37,919
Speaker 2: it was like, how how now do I get help

819
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: myself without losing everything that I've worked for. That was

820
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 2: the story in my mind, and I began desperately trying to.

821
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: Control the outcome.

822
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 2: Uh so, like just figuring out how I could maybe

823
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 2: go to treatment and lie about it and all these things,

824
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 2: and that kind of culminated in I ended up my

825
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 2: best way out was just suicide. That was what I

826
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: was thinking, and I ended up writing a suicide note.

827
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: It got that far, and I told.

828
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: Someone at work the next day, and I was able

829
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,320
Speaker 2: to tell my boss about the gambling and my marriage

830
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: falling apart without saying that I used. And I was

831
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 2: able to go to a trauma treatment center, which was incredible,

832
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: and I did a bunch of That was where I

833
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 2: did do some incredible inner child work and things like that.

834
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: And a month after I get home from that, that

835
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 2: was when my wife asked for a divorce, and so

836
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 2: I got Then I just went right back to using

837
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 2: Kreatim and I ended up, Oh yeah, this is where

838
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 2: uh it was so basically from like COVID until very recently,

839
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 2: was like trying to recover from like the relapse and

840
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: the divorce and instead of doing like a heavy like

841
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 2: a heavy down payment I was just like doing these

842
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: lesser monthly payments of like I should have when I

843
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 2: went to that, I should have gotten honest about using.

844
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 2: And because I didn't, it was three more years of

845
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: finding ways to just sort of skate by and maintain

846
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: and I didn't lose my position, and in fact, like

847
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 2: I got another job and like got a raise, and

848
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: I'm back in school and it was better and I

849
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: got a new girlfriend, and like things were better. But

850
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 2: I was on suboxin or I was on just things

851
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 2: that would just sort of keep me maintained.

852
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 1: Explain what suboxin is to people who don't know.

853
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 2: So, it's just that it's called like m AT medication

854
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 2: assisted therapy methodone is probably what most people will know.

855
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 2: It's the modern methodone. So it's just a synthetic opioid

856
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 2: that you take daily that is supposed to Uh it's

857
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 2: really great for short term like two week detox. It's

858
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: incredible for that, but pharmaceutical companies really push people being

859
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: on it for life and it's a orders of magnitude

860
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 2: worse withdrawal than heroin because of the duration.

861
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: I mean it takes like a month, like a solid month.

862
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: It's it's rough and I've been on and off that

863
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: since it came out back in the you know, the

864
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 2: early mid two thousand and so. I so now I

865
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 2: find myself in this new relationship and you know, I'm

866
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 2: I'm still just not telling everyone the whole truth.

867
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: That's kind of the theme and.

868
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 3: Which I think is important to like, like, I'm glad

869
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 3: you're drawing that out because you know when I talk

870
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,280
Speaker 3: about radical vulnerability, and it's like, yeah, you can, you can.

871
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 3: You can tell just enough to convince people that you're

872
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 3: being vulnerable and honest. And that's not to say that

873
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 3: you're not in some ways right, but you know what

874
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 3: you're holding back, and I think your story is a

875
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 3: great reminder that you're like, man, if I just would

876
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 3: have gone all out, ripped a band aid, done the thing,

877
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 3: you know, said all that was going on, I actually

878
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 3: could have saved myself a lot of heartache and a

879
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 3: lot of pain in the long run.

880
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

881
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it was just fear. It was fear

882
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 2: that was preventing me from that. But also so this

883
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: is also what the divorce and like the result from

884
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 2: it just I don't want to say screwed up, but

885
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: it has really caused me to look at God in

886
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 2: different ways because you know, now I have my daughter,

887
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 2: and it's one of these things of like, did I

888
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 2: have to go through all that to get my daughter?

889
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: And it's and if that's true, I don't like the

890
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: implications of that, And it really pulled the rug on

891
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 2: like everything I thought I knew about how God operates

892
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 2: and the ideas of like predestination and destiny and prayer

893
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: and trials, and I still couldn't tell you where I

894
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 2: have not landed on a certainty from that I think

895
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 2: I I do still believe that God can make good

896
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 2: out of any situation. So I don't believe that, you know,

897
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: obviously it didn't have to I made decisions that resulted

898
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 2: in those things, but it was. It was a massive

899
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 2: shakeup in my life. And then we went through we

900
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: went through a miscarriage before my daughter, and that that

901
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: so she had gotten pregnant, and that was the impetus

902
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 2: for me to go to treatment again two years ago.

903
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 2: And this was another time that I had the chance

904
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 2: to be fully honest, and instead I went to a

905
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 2: treatment center out of town. Me and my boss kind

906
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 2: of agreed to just keep it on a need to

907
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: know basis sort of thing. I didn't report myself to

908
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 2: the licensing board or any of that. And it was

909
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 2: when I got to treatment that I found out she

910
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: had a miscarriage. So that was another like this soak

911
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 2: confused about God and just my life and you know

912
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 2: all of that.

913
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: And so I got out.

914
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 2: But because I hadn't been honest, I couldn't use twelve

915
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 2: step groups like I should have been able to, because

916
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 2: I would see people there that thought I'd been sober

917
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 2: for X amount of time, and so then I was like, oh,

918
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 2: this is a pickle. And basically it was it was

919
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 2: just a matter of time before I kind of basically

920
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 2: repeated the same steps, I mean, started using just a

921
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: little gray area stuff, and it was it was too

922
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: treat like the inner restlessness, irritability and discontentedness that untreated

923
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: alcoholism was for me and and truly.

924
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: Still process.

925
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 2: You know, I had never processed the divorce pain because

926
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 2: I had been high during it, and it's you know,

927
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,439
Speaker 2: I'd just been kicking the can for so long, and

928
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 2: I just continued to kick the can and I picked

929
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: up again and then I got prescribed at her all again.

930
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 2: And then so before that, uh, we got pregnant again.

931
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 2: And my daughter was born and I ended up I

932
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 2: was like eleven months sober. I ended up relapsing again

933
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 2: like two months before she was born. And so then

934
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: it was you know, here were you know, here we

935
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 2: go again. And there was just never never in my

936
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 2: life plans would I have said that there was even

937
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: a chance I would be using like with a kid, right, with.

938
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 3: Having yeah, we always say well, if you know right,

939
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 3: I'll never do this right, Yeah, It'll never get you know.

940
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: It will.

941
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 2: And so what this all basically came came to a

942
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 2: head until I finally in uh September eighteenth, finally went

943
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 2: to of twenty twenty five, went to treatment and just

944
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 2: got completely honest, I mean, reported myself, took you know,

945
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: not going back to work, tell you know, picking up

946
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:34,439
Speaker 2: chips locally, just tellent being honest on the podcast, which

947
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 2: was another huge thing, really just not giving uh, just

948
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: being honest. And it was so freeing. I mean, it's

949
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: what it's yeah, I mean the very cliche but very true.

950
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 2: It was just it was such a relief to not

951
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 2: have to.

952
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: Lie in more.

953
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: And you know, I am still in the process of

954
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 2: repairing the damage I've done, especially in my relationship. I

955
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 2: mean absolute scorched trust. So it's not it's not even

956
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: yet like happily ever after. It's it's you know, I'm

957
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 2: I'm active, like I'm living in a sober living home again.

958
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 2: I'm uh, I took a job at a coffee shop again.

959
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: I'm just going back to school, trying to show up

960
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: as a father and as a partner and earn back

961
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 2: trust and h make a very long list of financial amends.

962
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 2: And I'm I'm very much back in early recovery and

963
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 2: I'm in the thick of it. But but it's great.

964
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 2: I mean, life is great. I really have no It's

965
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: that's the part about God's mercy that I love is

966
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 2: that it is new.

967
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: Each day and all all it takes is.

968
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 2: For me to be honest and go back and do

969
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 2: these like.

970
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: Like actual you know, and I think I'm curious and

971
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: this is what I love. Like you know, I think.

972
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 3: Your story invigorates makes me excited about you know, the

973
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 3: message that I feel like the Lord has called me

974
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 3: to to take to the masses, which is you know,

975
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 3: aim for Jesus gets sparady thrown in, you know, and

976
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 3: like let's let's do all of that work and all

977
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 3: of that work includes honesty and truthfulness and like when

978
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 3: other people won't accept you back, he will, right, And

979
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 3: and I'm curious what you feel like this time around. Okay,

980
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 3: so now you're back in early recovery. What are you

981
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 3: going to do different this time to make sure that

982
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 3: it doesn't get to that that just cycle again?

983
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: Like what have you told yourself?

984
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 2: Uh?

985
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 1: The big thing, I guess, like.

986
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 2: The the mantra I'm trying to live by is that

987
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 2: that my recovery is something to be cherished and protected.

988
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 2: And that was absolutely something that I began to take

989
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 2: for granted and then began to resent. And so I'm

990
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 2: trying to I mean, and it's it has been. This

991
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 2: has been the most difficult getting sober by far. I

992
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 2: mean just I mean, I'm older, I have responsibility.

993
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: I can't just you know, light it up.

994
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 2: I'm just like, no, you know, everything's fun and dandy

995
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 2: and just moved to a new city. And no, it's

996
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 2: like you're so, oh, we're great. Now go face everything

997
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 2: that you did while you were using. And I don't, uh,

998
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 2: I do not ever want to have to see my

999
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 2: daughter on visitation day again.

1000
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to do that. And then having the.

1001
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 2: Knowledge that that's always a possibility if I don't do

1002
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 2: what I'm supposed to do.

1003
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 3: So it's well, we're praying for you, yeah, and like

1004
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 3: we're right there with you. And I think it's good,

1005
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 3: you know. I think one of the goals of this

1006
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 3: podcast to have people at different places. And I think

1007
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 3: there are people that are no are listening right now

1008
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 3: who are right where you're at, right, And that's what

1009
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 3: I love, was like I don't want to just have

1010
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 3: all the button the clean buttoned up, like this is

1011
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 3: who I was five years ago, right, I mean, And

1012
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 3: I think what's interesting is like you have you have

1013
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 3: the podcast right, you are me right? And what I want,

1014
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,920
Speaker 3: what I want to tell people is I am I

1015
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 3: I can't. I don't look down on you. I'm like, dude,

1016
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 3: I am you right, And I'm one one compromise away

1017
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 3: from that domino effect, right, yes, And I have to

1018
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 3: be And if you're listening to this, you have to

1019
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 3: be like the heat to day eye tomorrow that I

1020
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 3: have tattooed on my arm and and I think your

1021
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 3: story is a good reminder of that before we go,

1022
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 3: because I want to respect your time. But one of

1023
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 3: the things that I think I get asked and I

1024
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 3: just don't know how to respond. All the time is

1025
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 3: from parents.

1026
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you know.

1027
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 3: They have a jed, right, what is your advice to

1028
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 3: parents who have people like you right, who have a

1029
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 3: son or daughter, Like, what do you tell them? What's

1030
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 3: the advice?

1031
01:06:53,440 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 2: Unfortunately or fortunately you can't rescue them from consequences?

1032
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 1: And this is one.

1033
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 2: Of those incredibly fine lines. It is an incredibly fine line,

1034
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 2: and there's a lot that goes into it. Obviously, like age,

1035
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 2: what's going on with them? But you kind of need

1036
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 2: to honestly assess, Uh, get into alan On. I always

1037
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 2: that's the number that's first. So that's like the support

1038
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 2: group for loved ones of people going through addictions at

1039
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 2: least something similar or at least something similar. Yeah you

1040
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 2: can do, yeah, celebrate recovery has their own version and

1041
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 2: uh yeah, not not rescuing them from consequences. Sometimes you

1042
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 2: have to let addiction do its job to bring them

1043
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 2: to their you know, letting letting them know that when

1044
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 2: they want help, then let's rock.

1045
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: But until then, I can't.

1046
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 2: I'm not going to actively participate in your self destruction.

1047
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 3: Well, and that's biblical, right, It's like, yeah, I actually

1048
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 3: think it's one of the scariest things in the Bible

1049
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:21,080
Speaker 3: is when the Lord says, fine, you want it that way,

1050
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:23,679
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give you over to your desires. I'm gonna

1051
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 3: let you have it your way. I'll be here when

1052
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 3: you're ready. But you just need to experience that. And

1053
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 3: I think that's hard for us as parents and your

1054
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 3: parent now, right, And yet sometimes I think many times

1055
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 3: you have to just let them play that out and

1056
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 3: you will be there and you will pray for them

1057
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 3: and their protection. And I'm sure your parents pray for

1058
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 3: your protection a lot.

1059
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 1: Oh my God. And here you are. You're still here,

1060
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: right right, right man, Jed.

1061
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 3: Thank you for your radical vulnerability, your honesty. I think

1062
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 3: your story is one that needed and I am so

1063
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 3: appreciative of you. And like I said, we're continuing to

1064
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 3: come alongside you and pray with you and for you,

1065
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:11,680
Speaker 3: and I appreciate you finally telling the truth. Yeah, that

1066
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:15,160
Speaker 3: is so we need more of that, not people who

1067
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:19,679
Speaker 3: are pretending that everything is fine, but who are willing.

1068
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 3: And I think the church then on the other side

1069
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 3: of that, needs to be willing to hear those stories

1070
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 3: and be with those people like you, because I think

1071
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 3: part of the problem is that the church hasn't been

1072
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:36,839
Speaker 3: that safe space where people can just bring their crap.

1073
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 3: They feel like they have to be buttoned up in

1074
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 3: order to come to Jesus. Where Jesus is saying, you

1075
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,799
Speaker 3: come to me, and then we'll get to that point.

1076
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 3: So Jeded, right, thank you so much. If people want

1077
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 3: to check out your podcast where and they.

1078
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 2: Go, yeah, Church and Other Drugs on every streaming platform,

1079
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:57,719
Speaker 2: and then a patreon dot com slash Church other Drugs

1080
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 2: and then you can find me on Instagram Jed dot

1081
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 2: I dot.

1082
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: Am awesome, Jed, thank you so much.

1083
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 2: Man, absolutely, thank you.

1084
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 3: You know, I've been asked by some people, what do

1085
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 3: you do if you have a guest on the show

1086
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 3: who then relapses? And you know what, my answer is, fine,

1087
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 3: like you know, I think we have to Well, I

1088
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 3: don't wish that on anyone.

1089
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: I know that.

1090
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 3: It's a real possibility because I know that our recovery

1091
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 3: journeys aren't linear, and I just I just don't view

1092
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 3: it as an indictment like some people do. And I

1093
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 3: don't view it as an indictment like we ourselves do. Again,

1094
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 3: that's hard for some people to wrap their mind around

1095
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 3: because they think, well, then if people don't hear that

1096
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 3: you're gonna come down hard on them, or if they

1097
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 3: you're gonna pull this episode, or you're gonna do you know,

1098
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 3: do all this stuff, then they're gonna.

1099
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 1: Use that as an excuse.

1100
01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 3: And I'm like, listen, if people will use that as

1101
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 3: an excuse, they've got deeper work that they need, that

1102
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:07,880
Speaker 3: they would have found another excuse and I'm not sitting

1103
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:09,720
Speaker 3: here making it easier for them. And the reason I

1104
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 3: say that is because you know, with Jed's story not

1105
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 3: being linear, like I if he calls me up tomorrow

1106
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 3: and it's like, man I started again, I'd be like, brother,

1107
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 3: then we just we still got work to do, right,

1108
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:27,600
Speaker 3: and we always will have work to do. And I

1109
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 3: just my friend Jen Couch, who's been on the podcast

1110
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 3: sober Sists, She's like, listen, then we just use that

1111
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 3: as a data point, right then then then we use

1112
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 3: that we begged the Lord to reveal, like where do

1113
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 3: we need to do more of the work.

1114
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 2: And so.

1115
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: I'm encouraged by Jed. I'm encouraged by.

1116
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 3: His finally just getting honest and pulling the curtain back,

1117
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 3: and I just want that for you as well. I

1118
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 3: want that for me because I'm one decision away from

1119
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 3: going down this viral and having the same story as

1120
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 3: Jed and and if you're honest.

1121
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:06,559
Speaker 1: You are too.

1122
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to this podcast. Have so many

1123
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 3: exciting things that we're going.

1124
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 1: To be that are going to be happening in.

1125
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 3: This year, and I just am so appreciative of you

1126
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 3: being along in supporting. Thank you to Life Audio, Life

1127
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 3: audio dot com for some other great podcasts. They have

1128
01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 3: been along the journey and the ride in supporting this

1129
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 3: podcast from the very beginning, and I'm so grateful. Head

1130
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 3: on over to Christianlcoholic dot com to grab a copy

1131
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:45,080
Speaker 3: of my book, and we will see you here next week.