1
00:00:20,196 --> 00:00:23,236
Speaker 1: Hi friend, I'm so glad you're here today. Let's learn

2
00:00:23,276 --> 00:00:26,916
Speaker 1: how to raise our kids to love God, respect authority,

3
00:00:27,196 --> 00:00:31,036
Speaker 1: and do what's right. Let's scroll less and live more.

4
00:00:31,356 --> 00:00:38,356
Speaker 1: I'm Arlene Pelicane and this is the Happy Home. Okay,

5
00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:40,836
Speaker 1: we're talking about I know you guys didn't know. I

6
00:00:40,836 --> 00:00:43,156
Speaker 1: talk a lot about technology, but my other favorite topic

7
00:00:43,196 --> 00:00:46,635
Speaker 1: is sleep. I really do love to sleep. And today

8
00:00:46,676 --> 00:00:49,876
Speaker 1: we are talking with Bret McCracken and he has a

9
00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:54,475
Speaker 1: new book called The Wisdom of Sleep, How Rest reveals

10
00:00:54,556 --> 00:00:57,996
Speaker 1: God's truth and revives weary souls. Brett, thanks so much

11
00:00:57,996 --> 00:00:59,276
Speaker 1: for being on the podcast.

12
00:00:59,715 --> 00:01:01,956
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Arlene, thanks for having me.

13
00:01:02,276 --> 00:01:05,596
Speaker 1: We have Biola University connections as you worked for their

14
00:01:05,636 --> 00:01:08,156
Speaker 1: magazine for so many years. You are now with the

15
00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:12,675
Speaker 1: Gospel Coalition. You have so many books that are amazing,

16
00:01:12,756 --> 00:01:15,476
Speaker 1: so please go look at Brett's books. But today we're

17
00:01:15,516 --> 00:01:18,196
Speaker 1: talking specifically about sleep. And you had me at the

18
00:01:18,196 --> 00:01:20,796
Speaker 1: first line. I had to think of Jerry maguire and

19
00:01:20,836 --> 00:01:23,316
Speaker 1: you had me a hello, and your first line was,

20
00:01:23,756 --> 00:01:26,396
Speaker 1: sometimes I wonder if Heaven will feel a bit like

21
00:01:26,435 --> 00:01:29,276
Speaker 1: an afternoon nap. I was like, oh, I like this

22
00:01:29,316 --> 00:01:32,196
Speaker 1: book already. Okay, why did you start in that way?

23
00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:35,596
Speaker 3: You know, the first lines of books are important and

24
00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:38,836
Speaker 3: they're memorable, and it says a lot about the book.

25
00:01:38,996 --> 00:01:42,435
Speaker 3: So I just I think for me, that gets at

26
00:01:43,075 --> 00:01:46,075
Speaker 3: why I'm interested in this topic. For a long time,

27
00:01:46,155 --> 00:01:49,276
Speaker 3: since since I was a kid, I've always like felt

28
00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:54,476
Speaker 3: interested in sleep as this portal to just a spiritual reality,

29
00:01:54,596 --> 00:01:58,475
Speaker 3: like a connection to God. And you know, a God

30
00:01:58,516 --> 00:02:04,876
Speaker 3: who created us to sleep, and maybe there's like a.

31
00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:06,436
Speaker 2: Sense of closeness to him doing.

32
00:02:06,236 --> 00:02:08,556
Speaker 3: What we were created to do, which you know, rest

33
00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:11,236
Speaker 3: is a big it's a big emphasis for God. He

34
00:02:11,476 --> 00:02:14,396
Speaker 3: rested on the seventh day of creation. He you know,

35
00:02:14,636 --> 00:02:18,076
Speaker 3: commands his you know, followers to Sabbath rest, and he

36
00:02:18,156 --> 00:02:22,196
Speaker 3: built in a requirement of physical rest daily, you know,

37
00:02:22,356 --> 00:02:23,316
Speaker 3: in our biology.

38
00:02:23,956 --> 00:02:25,516
Speaker 2: So I was just been interested in that.

39
00:02:25,676 --> 00:02:31,155
Speaker 3: And there's something interesting that happens with time when we sleep,

40
00:02:31,236 --> 00:02:34,796
Speaker 3: you know, that feeling of like falling asleep for five minutes,

41
00:02:34,916 --> 00:02:37,796
Speaker 3: but it feels like you've been dreaming and sleeping for

42
00:02:37,916 --> 00:02:42,156
Speaker 3: like a day or a year. And so I think

43
00:02:42,156 --> 00:02:45,516
Speaker 3: there's some sort of weird relationship between eternity and time

44
00:02:45,636 --> 00:02:49,196
Speaker 3: that sleep gives us a little picture of or a

45
00:02:49,276 --> 00:02:52,876
Speaker 3: taste of our eternal home.

46
00:02:53,835 --> 00:02:56,835
Speaker 1: Yeah. The feeling I got was as I was reading

47
00:02:56,835 --> 00:02:58,796
Speaker 1: her book is wait a minute, I thought sleep was

48
00:02:58,916 --> 00:03:02,236
Speaker 1: kind of this necessity, kind of this evil physical necessity,

49
00:03:02,436 --> 00:03:04,356
Speaker 1: so that I can grind it out the next day,

50
00:03:04,395 --> 00:03:06,916
Speaker 1: you know, just I need this for repair. Yes, but

51
00:03:07,076 --> 00:03:10,276
Speaker 1: your book really it shows the beauty of sleep, and

52
00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:13,636
Speaker 1: the creator made this sleep and kind of you ask

53
00:03:13,716 --> 00:03:18,196
Speaker 1: this question why sleep? Like, why why did God make this?

54
00:03:18,356 --> 00:03:20,596
Speaker 1: He could have made us so we didn't need to sleep.

55
00:03:20,756 --> 00:03:23,196
Speaker 1: So people need to get the book to get this

56
00:03:23,236 --> 00:03:25,876
Speaker 1: full answer, but give us that high overview. Why do

57
00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:29,836
Speaker 1: you think in your researching and writing this why sleep?

58
00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:31,236
Speaker 2: Yeah?

59
00:03:31,675 --> 00:03:36,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the central question that drives my exploration

60
00:03:36,196 --> 00:03:38,756
Speaker 3: of this topic. Is that that why? And it's a

61
00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:43,116
Speaker 3: question that has perplexed scientists. Actually is there's still kind

62
00:03:43,116 --> 00:03:46,276
Speaker 3: of not really a consensus on what the central purpose

63
00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:47,676
Speaker 3: of sleep is.

64
00:03:49,836 --> 00:03:50,636
Speaker 2: There's a lot of.

65
00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:55,036
Speaker 3: Benefits, but there's also a lot of disadvantages, especially if

66
00:03:55,036 --> 00:03:58,156
Speaker 3: you think about animals and like how vulnerable they are

67
00:03:58,236 --> 00:04:01,716
Speaker 3: to predators when they sleep. So why is it that

68
00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:06,276
Speaker 3: humans and all known species of animals have to do

69
00:04:06,316 --> 00:04:06,716
Speaker 3: this thing?

70
00:04:06,756 --> 00:04:11,316
Speaker 2: Why do we sleep? I think some of the answers.

71
00:04:10,796 --> 00:04:13,796
Speaker 3: That I kind of came to in researching and writing

72
00:04:13,796 --> 00:04:18,556
Speaker 3: this book is I think God likes to create things

73
00:04:18,596 --> 00:04:22,835
Speaker 3: that communicate truths about him and his character. Of course,

74
00:04:22,836 --> 00:04:26,396
Speaker 3: the Bible tells us that God does this, Like Psalm nineteen,

75
00:04:26,476 --> 00:04:30,116
Speaker 3: the heavens declare the glory of God. The sky above

76
00:04:30,196 --> 00:04:35,476
Speaker 3: proclaims his handiwork Romans one talks about how even Pagans

77
00:04:36,596 --> 00:04:39,395
Speaker 3: have no excuse to kind of know some things about

78
00:04:39,396 --> 00:04:42,076
Speaker 3: God just by looking at what he.

79
00:04:42,116 --> 00:04:44,356
Speaker 2: Made and the design of his world.

80
00:04:44,836 --> 00:04:47,316
Speaker 3: So I think God is an intentional designer, and there's

81
00:04:47,396 --> 00:04:51,076
Speaker 3: things He makes things in such a way that if

82
00:04:51,116 --> 00:04:54,916
Speaker 3: you look closely and ponder them, you can kind of

83
00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:57,356
Speaker 3: get to know a little bit about who God is.

84
00:04:57,836 --> 00:05:01,635
Speaker 3: It's called general revelation in the Christian tradition. Special revelation

85
00:05:01,755 --> 00:05:06,315
Speaker 3: of course, scripture it's the most important self revelation of God.

86
00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:08,636
Speaker 2: But general revelation is.

87
00:05:08,596 --> 00:05:12,356
Speaker 3: The idea that in what He made, the tangible stuff

88
00:05:12,476 --> 00:05:17,796
Speaker 3: of this planet, this universe, including Sleep, has something to

89
00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:21,155
Speaker 3: say to us. Some of the things that I think

90
00:05:21,516 --> 00:05:25,196
Speaker 3: Sleep says to us about who God is. He is

91
00:05:25,276 --> 00:05:30,356
Speaker 3: a god of grace. Sleep is a gracious gift. You

92
00:05:30,436 --> 00:05:35,996
Speaker 3: receive the gifts of sleep passively. It's not something you earn, right.

93
00:05:36,036 --> 00:05:41,556
Speaker 3: You can't control the benefits of sleep and like program

94
00:05:41,596 --> 00:05:44,236
Speaker 3: them and divelment you just all you can do is

95
00:05:44,276 --> 00:05:45,156
Speaker 3: just receive.

96
00:05:44,876 --> 00:05:47,236
Speaker 2: Them, lay there with gratitude and let.

97
00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:50,156
Speaker 3: You literally lay flat, and there's all these benefits that

98
00:05:50,195 --> 00:05:53,036
Speaker 3: you get from sleep. So it speaks to a god

99
00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:58,116
Speaker 3: of grace who delights in giving things freely of himself

100
00:05:58,156 --> 00:05:59,196
Speaker 3: to his creation.

101
00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:02,916
Speaker 1: We're going to go here later in the interview, but

102
00:06:03,476 --> 00:06:05,956
Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking about the listener that's like, I

103
00:06:06,476 --> 00:06:08,836
Speaker 1: am not receiving this gift. I am struggling to sleep.

104
00:06:08,876 --> 00:06:10,556
Speaker 1: So we're going to go there in a moment, but

105
00:06:10,596 --> 00:06:14,316
Speaker 1: I want to talk. You talked about how we are

106
00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:16,515
Speaker 1: vulnerable when we're sleeping, and I thought that was so

107
00:06:16,676 --> 00:06:20,876
Speaker 1: interesting that you will be that's when when danger can

108
00:06:20,916 --> 00:06:24,356
Speaker 1: come and you're completely unable to do anything about it.

109
00:06:24,796 --> 00:06:28,876
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit more about how that teaches us, like, Wow, God,

110
00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:31,316
Speaker 1: you are my safety. I must dwell in you.

111
00:06:31,996 --> 00:06:34,556
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think you know.

112
00:06:34,755 --> 00:06:39,636
Speaker 3: Historically nighttime has been the most dangerous time of day.

113
00:06:39,836 --> 00:06:41,796
Speaker 2: Only in modern era, like in.

114
00:06:41,755 --> 00:06:43,916
Speaker 3: The last hundred or so years have we kind of

115
00:06:44,396 --> 00:06:48,836
Speaker 3: tamed the perils of the night with you know, climate

116
00:06:48,836 --> 00:06:53,596
Speaker 3: controlled homes and security systems and modern medicine. But for

117
00:06:53,796 --> 00:06:57,276
Speaker 3: much of human history, nighttime was when we were at

118
00:06:57,315 --> 00:07:02,156
Speaker 3: our most vulnerable and you really needed God's protection, so

119
00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:04,796
Speaker 3: you needed to pray before you went to bed, like Lord,

120
00:07:05,236 --> 00:07:07,796
Speaker 3: as I laid me down to sleep, you know my soul,

121
00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:11,556
Speaker 3: like you need to protect me. And so I think,

122
00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:15,716
Speaker 3: even though some of the dangers are less present to

123
00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:19,796
Speaker 3: us today, sleep is still a vulnerable thing and there's

124
00:07:19,796 --> 00:07:22,116
Speaker 3: a lot can go wrong in the night. If you're

125
00:07:22,156 --> 00:07:25,516
Speaker 3: a parent of young kids, as I am with babies,

126
00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:28,196
Speaker 3: you know that, like nighttime can be really scary, Like

127
00:07:28,236 --> 00:07:30,956
Speaker 3: when you have a sick kid for example. Yeah, we

128
00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:35,516
Speaker 3: had some creepy kids and there's nothing worse than like

129
00:07:35,636 --> 00:07:39,636
Speaker 3: just hearing over the monitor. They're like labored breathing and

130
00:07:39,676 --> 00:07:43,076
Speaker 3: the barking coughs of your infant. It just reminds you

131
00:07:43,156 --> 00:07:46,396
Speaker 3: that like nighttime is, it's when your immunity goes down,

132
00:07:46,476 --> 00:07:49,596
Speaker 3: it's when your sickness revs up, and it's a time

133
00:07:49,676 --> 00:07:54,996
Speaker 3: of great physical vulnerability, also spiritual vulnerability in terms of

134
00:07:55,076 --> 00:07:58,596
Speaker 3: like dreams and the spiritual darkness that can sometimes enter

135
00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:02,156
Speaker 3: in nightmares. So all that to say, I think sleep

136
00:08:02,236 --> 00:08:04,316
Speaker 3: is a good opportunity for all of us to just

137
00:08:04,876 --> 00:08:09,076
Speaker 3: be reminded that we need a protector. We need God's

138
00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:11,036
Speaker 3: sovereignty to watch over us.

139
00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:14,636
Speaker 2: And he does watch over us. He keeps watch in

140
00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:16,996
Speaker 2: the night. Psalm one twenty one.

141
00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:20,956
Speaker 3: Beautifullys reminds us of that when it says like he

142
00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:24,516
Speaker 3: who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps.

143
00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:28,276
Speaker 2: He is the one that stays up while we sleep.

144
00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:32,516
Speaker 3: And we can sleep easier because he doesn't sleep, because

145
00:08:33,076 --> 00:08:34,436
Speaker 3: he keeps the world going.

146
00:08:34,556 --> 00:08:36,836
Speaker 2: He is always on watch, always alert.

147
00:08:37,276 --> 00:08:40,795
Speaker 3: And so for me, sleep is just a nightly reminder

148
00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:43,916
Speaker 3: that I can rest in the sovereignty of God and

149
00:08:43,996 --> 00:08:46,036
Speaker 3: relax in the sovereignty of God.

150
00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:50,476
Speaker 1: What a beautiful way to frame that, because every day

151
00:08:50,596 --> 00:08:53,836
Speaker 1: we can have this reminder. Every seven days we have

152
00:08:53,916 --> 00:08:58,556
Speaker 1: this reminder through Sabbath rest. That is a commandment for

153
00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:02,636
Speaker 1: keep the Sabbath. So God is telling us rest, my child, rest.

154
00:09:02,756 --> 00:09:05,116
Speaker 1: And so even if you're listening to this podcast and

155
00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:07,116
Speaker 1: your takeaways, you know what, when I lay in bed today,

156
00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:09,556
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, Lord, thank you you are sovereign.

157
00:09:10,076 --> 00:09:13,356
Speaker 1: I accept your gift of rest today instead of tossing

158
00:09:13,396 --> 00:09:16,196
Speaker 1: and turning and worrying about your life, Like that's going

159
00:09:16,276 --> 00:09:19,996
Speaker 1: to be a huge, huge benefit. Okay, you have you

160
00:09:20,036 --> 00:09:23,356
Speaker 1: have four kids, you know, eight and under, including a baby,

161
00:09:23,756 --> 00:09:26,356
Speaker 1: So so you you're I just want listeners to know

162
00:09:26,396 --> 00:09:29,796
Speaker 1: that you are from the real world, realm of parents

163
00:09:29,876 --> 00:09:34,396
Speaker 1: who have a hard time sleeping. Yes, right, What are

164
00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:38,316
Speaker 1: some tips sleep tips that you can give us as

165
00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:40,796
Speaker 1: adults and then for children?

166
00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:44,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a lot of my tips are going

167
00:09:44,476 --> 00:09:47,676
Speaker 3: to be pretty common knowledge to a lot of listeners.

168
00:09:47,756 --> 00:09:51,836
Speaker 3: But like I think, both with kids and for adults,

169
00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:55,436
Speaker 3: like some sort of wind down period before sleep is

170
00:09:55,476 --> 00:09:58,156
Speaker 3: really important. You're probably not going to get a good

171
00:09:58,156 --> 00:09:59,836
Speaker 3: sleep and your kids aren't going to get a good

172
00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:04,636
Speaker 3: sleep if you're like manic, like doing doing, doing, hyperproductive

173
00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:09,676
Speaker 3: right up until like bedtime. So whether it's like with

174
00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:13,356
Speaker 3: your kids, like having some reading time, having some quiet

175
00:10:13,396 --> 00:10:17,716
Speaker 3: time as the day ends, I think that's good.

176
00:10:17,916 --> 00:10:19,596
Speaker 2: As adults, I really.

177
00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:22,876
Speaker 3: Don't recommend like being on your computer or your phone

178
00:10:23,116 --> 00:10:25,396
Speaker 3: right up until the moment you go to bed. There's

179
00:10:25,396 --> 00:10:27,956
Speaker 3: a lot of science that's actually backing that up. That

180
00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:33,996
Speaker 3: screen light as well as screen content, which often makes

181
00:10:34,076 --> 00:10:37,756
Speaker 3: us kind of anxious and stressed doesn't do good things

182
00:10:37,796 --> 00:10:42,196
Speaker 3: for our sleep, So try to have screen free, slow

183
00:10:42,316 --> 00:10:47,556
Speaker 3: down rhythms, relaxing time right up until you sleep. Another

184
00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:51,396
Speaker 3: tip that is pretty commonly known, but it's really important

185
00:10:51,436 --> 00:10:54,516
Speaker 3: as I read like the Science of sleep books, is

186
00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:58,436
Speaker 3: just a regular rhythm of going to bed and waking

187
00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:01,516
Speaker 3: up at the same time every day. Our bodies are

188
00:11:01,876 --> 00:11:06,276
Speaker 3: wired to kind of do better with like predictable rhythms.

189
00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:09,516
Speaker 3: And if you kind of have an erratic schedule, which

190
00:11:09,516 --> 00:11:12,356
Speaker 3: I understand some people can't help that if you're a

191
00:11:12,436 --> 00:11:16,156
Speaker 3: shift worker or something like that, but to the extent

192
00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:19,396
Speaker 3: that it's within your control, like try to go to

193
00:11:19,436 --> 00:11:21,876
Speaker 3: bed at the same time every day and wake up

194
00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:25,556
Speaker 3: at the same time, that will actually do wonders for

195
00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:29,956
Speaker 3: the quality of your sleep. And a couple other ones

196
00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:32,716
Speaker 3: would just be the obvious, like things to avoid right

197
00:11:32,796 --> 00:11:38,436
Speaker 3: before bed, like stimulants like you know, alcohol, or really

198
00:11:38,476 --> 00:11:42,836
Speaker 3: intense workouts right before bed, things that kind of elevate

199
00:11:42,916 --> 00:11:45,676
Speaker 3: your hormone levels and whatnot.

200
00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:48,996
Speaker 2: Avoid that. And yeah, I.

201
00:11:48,916 --> 00:11:52,276
Speaker 3: Think on just a spiritual level, something that I talk

202
00:11:52,316 --> 00:11:55,876
Speaker 3: about in the book when in the dreams chapter. There's

203
00:11:55,876 --> 00:11:59,636
Speaker 3: two books, two chapters on dreams, but the content of

204
00:11:59,676 --> 00:12:03,036
Speaker 3: our dreams, which can often make our sleep really restless

205
00:12:03,076 --> 00:12:07,596
Speaker 3: and disruptive if it's if it's like dark nightmares. It

206
00:12:07,676 --> 00:12:10,716
Speaker 3: really does depend on the inputs of your day. And

207
00:12:10,756 --> 00:12:14,956
Speaker 3: so if you are having let's say you're watching like

208
00:12:14,956 --> 00:12:18,196
Speaker 3: a scary movie wrap before bed, like, don't be surprised

209
00:12:18,196 --> 00:12:20,276
Speaker 3: if you don't have a great night's sleep because your

210
00:12:20,356 --> 00:12:23,076
Speaker 3: dreams are troubled by those late.

211
00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:25,956
Speaker 2: In the day inputs. So to the extent that you

212
00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:30,436
Speaker 2: can like control the inputs in your mind, that can

213
00:12:30,516 --> 00:12:31,916
Speaker 2: help your quality of sleep.

214
00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:34,356
Speaker 3: And I know that you can't avoid all that being

215
00:12:34,716 --> 00:12:37,716
Speaker 3: an adult in today's world, being a parent, there's just

216
00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:41,236
Speaker 3: a lot of scary, stressful stuff that is just part

217
00:12:41,276 --> 00:12:42,196
Speaker 3: of the course in life.

218
00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:44,516
Speaker 2: But you can control some of it.

219
00:12:44,796 --> 00:12:48,436
Speaker 3: So don't watch horror movies right before bed, don't read

220
00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:54,036
Speaker 3: scary headlines on news websites right before you go to bed,

221
00:12:54,156 --> 00:12:58,556
Speaker 3: don't scroll on Instagram and let the algorithm like put

222
00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:01,916
Speaker 3: some sort of like troubling thing in your mind right

223
00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:05,916
Speaker 3: before you go to bed, like, do read scripture, like,

224
00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:10,676
Speaker 3: do read like physical books that are like things that

225
00:13:10,676 --> 00:13:13,476
Speaker 3: can calm your mind. A lot of the quality of

226
00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:17,876
Speaker 3: sleep is mental. Actually likes there's a lot of science

227
00:13:17,916 --> 00:13:21,636
Speaker 3: that shows like the the mental stress and anxiety you

228
00:13:21,716 --> 00:13:24,996
Speaker 3: carry into sleep can affect your sleep quality.

229
00:13:25,556 --> 00:13:29,116
Speaker 1: And that's a choice you can make. I recently read

230
00:13:29,116 --> 00:13:31,716
Speaker 1: the same thing of like, pretty much the worst thing

231
00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:34,396
Speaker 1: you can do is just be scrolling on your social

232
00:13:34,436 --> 00:13:37,916
Speaker 1: media because it's you know, constant simulation. You're all looking,

233
00:13:37,996 --> 00:13:41,196
Speaker 1: it's anxiety ridden, it's fear, and so you know, if

234
00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:43,516
Speaker 1: you have to do something, then listen to this podcast

235
00:13:43,556 --> 00:13:45,756
Speaker 1: and we will allow you to sleep as you have it.

236
00:13:45,876 --> 00:13:47,996
Speaker 1: Weigh a few feet away from you and just listen

237
00:13:48,036 --> 00:13:51,156
Speaker 1: to our voices. But the content really matters, like what

238
00:13:51,316 --> 00:13:54,156
Speaker 1: you are and do it the same with your children.

239
00:13:54,356 --> 00:13:56,236
Speaker 1: If you find like, oh, my kids are saying they

240
00:13:56,236 --> 00:13:58,836
Speaker 1: have nightmares, or my kids are having trouble sleeping, it's like,

241
00:13:59,156 --> 00:14:01,396
Speaker 1: what are they watching during the day? What might they

242
00:14:01,396 --> 00:14:03,916
Speaker 1: be watching that you don't know about? How can you

243
00:14:03,996 --> 00:14:06,876
Speaker 1: limit that environment because that's really going to help them

244
00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:10,316
Speaker 1: sleep better as well. You know, it's so interesting when

245
00:14:10,316 --> 00:14:12,356
Speaker 1: you were talking about nighttime, how it used to be

246
00:14:12,436 --> 00:14:16,196
Speaker 1: a dangerous thing, and don't you think now it's so

247
00:14:16,396 --> 00:14:18,516
Speaker 1: dangerous because of what we do in our bedrooms with

248
00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,716
Speaker 1: our phone for sure, and we think as parents, Oh,

249
00:14:21,716 --> 00:14:24,836
Speaker 1: they're safe. They're like, in our house, everything's fine. There's

250
00:14:24,916 --> 00:14:27,596
Speaker 1: our burglar in here. We don't have famine, we don't

251
00:14:27,596 --> 00:14:30,596
Speaker 1: have a wild animal running through our house. But it's like, oh,

252
00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:33,836
Speaker 1: my goodness, they're sitting with their phone and that talk

253
00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:36,836
Speaker 1: a little bit about that that I can't help but

254
00:14:36,916 --> 00:14:41,316
Speaker 1: think while the night is so dangerous, that toxic trio

255
00:14:41,476 --> 00:14:45,836
Speaker 1: of darkness, right, being alone, right, and your technology.

256
00:14:46,516 --> 00:14:47,556
Speaker 2: No, you're totally right.

257
00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:50,276
Speaker 3: And it reminds me of what Jonathan Height says in

258
00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:56,156
Speaker 3: his book Anxious Generation about how have we now underprotect

259
00:14:56,236 --> 00:14:59,396
Speaker 3: kids in the virtual world, but we overprotect.

260
00:14:58,716 --> 00:14:59,676
Speaker 2: Them in the real world.

261
00:14:59,836 --> 00:15:02,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're helicopter parents when it comes to how

262
00:15:02,316 --> 00:15:05,596
Speaker 3: far we let them ride their bikes outside, but we

263
00:15:06,156 --> 00:15:08,436
Speaker 3: let them do anything they want on their devices in

264
00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:13,076
Speaker 3: their rooms. But that Jonathan Hyde is arguing, and I agree,

265
00:15:13,516 --> 00:15:17,156
Speaker 3: is actually the most damaging to them on a mental

266
00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:20,116
Speaker 3: health level, on a spiritual level, because the things that

267
00:15:20,156 --> 00:15:24,076
Speaker 3: they can get into and find online are very dark.

268
00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:27,196
Speaker 3: And you know, you like to give your kids the

269
00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:33,436
Speaker 3: benefit of the doubt. But like teenagers especially are hormonal creatures.

270
00:15:33,516 --> 00:15:37,836
Speaker 3: They're rebellious. They will find their way to some pretty

271
00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:41,316
Speaker 3: dark stuff. So I think it's really important for parents

272
00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:46,436
Speaker 3: to be sober minded and alert to all that can

273
00:15:46,476 --> 00:15:49,196
Speaker 3: go wrong in the nighttime. If your kid has access

274
00:15:49,316 --> 00:15:54,756
Speaker 3: to the Internet and smartphones. Yeah, you're so right, that's

275
00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:56,396
Speaker 3: like too Peril.

276
00:15:56,076 --> 00:15:56,556
Speaker 2: Of the Night.

277
00:15:56,836 --> 00:15:59,196
Speaker 1: Yes, two hundred years ago it was like.

278
00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:02,556
Speaker 3: Fires and like the plague in the night. But now

279
00:16:03,116 --> 00:16:03,676
Speaker 3: the Internet.

280
00:16:03,916 --> 00:16:06,476
Speaker 1: What a funny like comic that would be. Like, you know,

281
00:16:06,916 --> 00:16:08,836
Speaker 1: a thousand years ago, you see all these creatures and

282
00:16:08,876 --> 00:16:11,236
Speaker 1: awful fires and pillaging, you know whatever, And here you

283
00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:15,556
Speaker 1: see this kid on a bed holding a phone in

284
00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:18,396
Speaker 1: their face. Yes, and you know here you are writing

285
00:16:18,396 --> 00:16:21,196
Speaker 1: about the whiz them of sleep. And so many of

286
00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:23,596
Speaker 1: our children's issues could be solved by a good night

287
00:16:23,676 --> 00:16:27,516
Speaker 1: sleep on most days of the week. Could solve a

288
00:16:27,596 --> 00:16:30,316
Speaker 1: lot of problems. My husband used to tell me, because

289
00:16:30,316 --> 00:16:33,676
Speaker 1: I'm not very athletic. My husband's very active athletic. He likes,

290
00:16:33,716 --> 00:16:35,996
Speaker 1: you know, skiing and all these different things I really

291
00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:38,716
Speaker 1: have a hard time doing. He'll tell me if if

292
00:16:38,756 --> 00:16:43,116
Speaker 1: sleeping we're an Olympic sport, you could win. Dear, just

293
00:16:43,156 --> 00:16:48,076
Speaker 1: like sleep through things. I love my naps. I like

294
00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:50,396
Speaker 1: I write books and have children, but I do it

295
00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,676
Speaker 1: while I'm awake, and I don't sacrifice my sleep for it.

296
00:16:54,436 --> 00:17:00,276
Speaker 1: You know, getting back to this idea of getting a

297
00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:03,636
Speaker 1: good night sleep now is counter cultural, Like people are

298
00:17:03,676 --> 00:17:07,235
Speaker 1: not doing this, John Piper. You quote him in the

299
00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:10,796
Speaker 1: book you write he said, and you quote this. God

300
00:17:10,836 --> 00:17:13,796
Speaker 1: sends us to bed each night like patients who are

301
00:17:13,876 --> 00:17:17,396
Speaker 1: ill with the sickness. The sickness is a chronic tendency

302
00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:19,676
Speaker 1: to think we are in control and that our work

303
00:17:19,756 --> 00:17:23,795
Speaker 1: is indispensable to cure us of this disease. God turns

304
00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:27,315
Speaker 1: us into helpless acts of sand once a day. I

305
00:17:27,396 --> 00:17:32,235
Speaker 1: love that, right, Yeah, talk about how how this is

306
00:17:32,275 --> 00:17:37,156
Speaker 1: a good corrective to us being overworking, over hustling, over

307
00:17:37,436 --> 00:17:38,836
Speaker 1: you know, going nuts over here.

308
00:17:39,275 --> 00:17:40,876
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think this is kind of one

309
00:17:40,916 --> 00:17:43,715
Speaker 3: of those answers to the question of why would God

310
00:17:43,755 --> 00:17:47,115
Speaker 3: create us to sleep? I think in his wisdom he

311
00:17:47,275 --> 00:17:51,836
Speaker 3: knew that humans are were prone to pride, and we're

312
00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:56,315
Speaker 3: prone in our nature to overestimate our self importance and

313
00:17:56,436 --> 00:18:00,156
Speaker 3: to think we need to be always on, and we

314
00:18:00,156 --> 00:18:03,356
Speaker 3: we can't get away with turning off and stopping working

315
00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:06,796
Speaker 3: because we are you know, this is our sinful nature.

316
00:18:06,876 --> 00:18:10,995
Speaker 3: But yees, sleep is a genius kind of putting us

317
00:18:10,995 --> 00:18:16,076
Speaker 3: in our place device because it forces us to succumb

318
00:18:16,235 --> 00:18:18,916
Speaker 3: to the reality that the world goes on with us

319
00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:23,595
Speaker 3: every night. We don't actually have to finish the to

320
00:18:23,636 --> 00:18:26,636
Speaker 3: do list that we set out for each day. It's

321
00:18:26,715 --> 00:18:28,596
Speaker 3: not going to be the end of the world. And

322
00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:32,835
Speaker 3: in fact, going to bed and receiving all the benefits,

323
00:18:32,876 --> 00:18:36,755
Speaker 3: all the restorative benefits that sleep provides is the best

324
00:18:36,755 --> 00:18:39,955
Speaker 3: thing we can do for the next day is productivity.

325
00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:45,196
Speaker 3: So that's the thing that science is really discovering recently

326
00:18:45,235 --> 00:18:49,555
Speaker 3: about sleep and why a lot of people in the

327
00:18:49,556 --> 00:18:53,995
Speaker 3: health and fitness industry are now emphasizing sleep so much.

328
00:18:54,356 --> 00:18:57,315
Speaker 3: Even like professional athletes like you hear a lot of

329
00:18:57,316 --> 00:19:00,475
Speaker 3: them talk about how much they prioritize sleep because the

330
00:19:00,556 --> 00:19:05,795
Speaker 3: science is clear that their performance athletically is deeply connected

331
00:19:05,836 --> 00:19:10,235
Speaker 3: to their sleeping life. So yeah, I think in the

332
00:19:10,275 --> 00:19:13,676
Speaker 3: technological world we live in, the temptation is greater than

333
00:19:13,676 --> 00:19:18,116
Speaker 3: ever to like produce all the time, to like always

334
00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,715
Speaker 3: be optimizing every moment with your phone, with the ability

335
00:19:21,755 --> 00:19:25,676
Speaker 3: to like check email and do work at eleven o'clock

336
00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:27,395
Speaker 3: at night when you should be going to bed, Like,

337
00:19:28,396 --> 00:19:32,755
Speaker 3: the technology is tempting us to overestimate the need for

338
00:19:32,916 --> 00:19:35,075
Speaker 3: us to be awake, the need for us to just

339
00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:38,555
Speaker 3: keep checking things off the list and to keep hustling

340
00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:43,396
Speaker 3: and grinding things out. And I just think that we

341
00:19:43,475 --> 00:19:47,396
Speaker 3: need to be countercultural in this moment, in this cultural moment,

342
00:19:47,475 --> 00:19:54,555
Speaker 3: as Christians, especially people who really can rest in God's sovereignty,

343
00:19:55,275 --> 00:19:58,636
Speaker 3: rest in his provision, in his abundance, like we of

344
00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:01,916
Speaker 3: all people should set the example of like, work hard

345
00:20:01,995 --> 00:20:06,475
Speaker 3: in the waking hours, do good work, but then turn

346
00:20:06,515 --> 00:20:10,556
Speaker 3: off and accept the fact that God he wants us

347
00:20:10,596 --> 00:20:15,036
Speaker 3: to rest in his provision and not overestimate our need.

348
00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:18,156
Speaker 3: I tell the story of the Israelites and the manna,

349
00:20:18,636 --> 00:20:21,595
Speaker 3: you know, from the Bible, when God tells them, you know,

350
00:20:22,275 --> 00:20:27,196
Speaker 3: don't collect manna on Sabbath, right, But some of them

351
00:20:27,235 --> 00:20:31,235
Speaker 3: just can't do that. They're so worried about their need

352
00:20:31,396 --> 00:20:35,275
Speaker 3: to procure food. They don't trust in God's provision, and

353
00:20:35,316 --> 00:20:38,436
Speaker 3: so they break that commandment. And I think those who

354
00:20:38,515 --> 00:20:42,916
Speaker 3: like don't prioritize sleep and don't and can't bring themselves

355
00:20:42,955 --> 00:20:45,196
Speaker 3: to Sabbath are doing the same thing.

356
00:20:45,235 --> 00:20:46,955
Speaker 2: It really stems.

357
00:20:46,515 --> 00:20:51,876
Speaker 3: From an over realized sense of your own importance and

358
00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:56,636
Speaker 3: the fact the belief that you might have that your

359
00:20:56,796 --> 00:21:01,916
Speaker 3: livelihood or your family's livelihood depends on you more than

360
00:21:01,955 --> 00:21:05,035
Speaker 3: it depends on the goodness and grace of God. And

361
00:21:05,076 --> 00:21:07,395
Speaker 3: that's tempting. I mean it's easy to fall into that.

362
00:21:07,515 --> 00:21:10,916
Speaker 3: Like I'm a dad, I fall into that myself. I

363
00:21:10,955 --> 00:21:14,035
Speaker 3: always have to like check my heart and try to

364
00:21:14,076 --> 00:21:18,235
Speaker 3: like reframe my perspective that like no, like everything my

365
00:21:18,316 --> 00:21:22,835
Speaker 3: family has as comes from God, like their health and

366
00:21:22,916 --> 00:21:27,436
Speaker 3: livelihood depends on Him more than me. And and in fact,

367
00:21:27,475 --> 00:21:30,995
Speaker 3: if they see me modeling that, that's the best gift

368
00:21:31,035 --> 00:21:34,235
Speaker 3: I can give to them. If I model a kind

369
00:21:34,275 --> 00:21:38,596
Speaker 3: of peaceful presence resting in the goodness and sovereignty of God,

370
00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:42,356
Speaker 3: that's something that they will hopefully imitate in their lives.

371
00:21:43,235 --> 00:21:45,676
Speaker 2: So that's why I wrote the book for myself, you know,

372
00:21:45,796 --> 00:21:48,075
Speaker 2: just to kind of totally remember these things.

373
00:21:49,316 --> 00:21:51,995
Speaker 1: The I have so many questions after what you just said. Okay,

374
00:21:52,116 --> 00:21:57,075
Speaker 1: let's start here. The thought being, Wow, when I do nothing,

375
00:21:58,035 --> 00:22:02,035
Speaker 1: that's when God is like that makes me productive the

376
00:22:02,076 --> 00:22:04,715
Speaker 1: next day, And then how beautiful that's the Lord. It's

377
00:22:04,755 --> 00:22:08,156
Speaker 1: like I Jesus, the Holy Spirit, I'm going to sanctify you.

378
00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:11,636
Speaker 1: You rest, and the more you rest the more productive

379
00:22:11,676 --> 00:22:14,156
Speaker 1: and fruitful you will be if you rest in me.

380
00:22:14,715 --> 00:22:16,676
Speaker 1: I think of the rise of the energy drink, like

381
00:22:16,715 --> 00:22:18,636
Speaker 1: we you know, it's because we all want to keep

382
00:22:18,676 --> 00:22:21,596
Speaker 1: staying awake. When you and I were growing up, there

383
00:22:21,676 --> 00:22:24,436
Speaker 1: was just maybe jolt. I remember joelt was like this

384
00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:27,475
Speaker 1: energy like soda, but there was just like one kind.

385
00:22:27,796 --> 00:22:30,275
Speaker 1: You know. Now, obviously of all these energy drinks that

386
00:22:30,316 --> 00:22:33,156
Speaker 1: people are drinking because they're they're not going to sleep

387
00:22:33,196 --> 00:22:37,995
Speaker 1: at night, how has this book affected like you, your wife,

388
00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:41,515
Speaker 1: your children? Has it affected just that rhythm of sleep

389
00:22:41,515 --> 00:22:42,116
Speaker 1: in any way?

390
00:22:43,876 --> 00:22:45,916
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I mean this has been like.

391
00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:46,875
Speaker 1: Except for your baby.

392
00:22:46,955 --> 00:22:50,556
Speaker 3: Perhaps having a baby, there's only so much you can

393
00:22:50,596 --> 00:22:53,396
Speaker 3: do to like a good sleep. Thankfully he has been

394
00:22:53,396 --> 00:22:57,836
Speaker 3: a decent sleeper, so we're grateful for that. But yeah,

395
00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:01,275
Speaker 3: I think it's it's really just reminded me that, like

396
00:23:02,836 --> 00:23:05,596
Speaker 3: it's not as important that I get everything done. There's

397
00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:09,276
Speaker 3: no end you know this too, Like there's no end

398
00:23:09,475 --> 00:23:11,755
Speaker 3: to the list of things that you want to accomplish

399
00:23:11,796 --> 00:23:14,955
Speaker 3: each day, Like I never I rarely go to bed,

400
00:23:15,076 --> 00:23:18,795
Speaker 3: like having reached inbox zero they call it.

401
00:23:19,436 --> 00:23:22,236
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I've given up trying to do that.

402
00:23:24,076 --> 00:23:28,676
Speaker 3: So I'm going to prioritize sleeping rather than getting everything done.

403
00:23:28,836 --> 00:23:29,836
Speaker 2: And sometimes that.

404
00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:33,436
Speaker 3: Means waiting until the morning to do the dishes if

405
00:23:33,436 --> 00:23:36,555
Speaker 3: the sink is full of dishes. Sometimes it means not

406
00:23:37,316 --> 00:23:40,235
Speaker 3: responding to a text or an email that I haven't

407
00:23:40,356 --> 00:23:44,276
Speaker 3: had time to respond to. And it's like, it's a choice, right,

408
00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:47,075
Speaker 3: It's it's something that you have to be intentional about

409
00:23:47,116 --> 00:23:50,475
Speaker 3: because it's so easy to just sideline sleep. It's like, Okay,

410
00:23:51,035 --> 00:23:53,635
Speaker 3: I'll go to sleep when I when I can, and

411
00:23:53,676 --> 00:23:56,955
Speaker 3: it's and sometimes there are things like in my work

412
00:23:57,436 --> 00:24:00,875
Speaker 3: as a journalist for the Gospel Coalition, there's deadlines for

413
00:24:00,955 --> 00:24:04,715
Speaker 3: like articles, and I have a short turnaround time, so

414
00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:06,676
Speaker 3: every now and then I have to stay up late

415
00:24:06,715 --> 00:24:09,556
Speaker 3: to like finish an article. And that's okay as long

416
00:24:09,596 --> 00:24:13,636
Speaker 3: as it's not like becoming a regular regular thing. But

417
00:24:13,676 --> 00:24:16,756
Speaker 3: I always feel it the next day, Like you always

418
00:24:16,836 --> 00:24:21,036
Speaker 3: feel worse when you wake up in the morning and

419
00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:24,116
Speaker 3: you have gotten less sleep than you eat and your

420
00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:26,356
Speaker 3: watch reminds you. You know, we have these watches now

421
00:24:26,356 --> 00:24:29,436
Speaker 3: that tells you, like, you had a poor sleep last night.

422
00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:31,955
Speaker 3: You're like, no kidding, I'm like, no kidding, Thank you

423
00:24:31,995 --> 00:24:36,555
Speaker 3: for that reminder for guilting me about that. But yeah,

424
00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:40,315
Speaker 3: I think it's a choice and I'm having to just

425
00:24:40,995 --> 00:24:42,995
Speaker 3: choose it every day. And even though I wrote this

426
00:24:43,035 --> 00:24:46,275
Speaker 3: book on sleep, I'm not the perfect practitioner of it.

427
00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:49,995
Speaker 3: Sometimes I don't go to bed as early as I should.

428
00:24:50,035 --> 00:24:54,275
Speaker 3: And I'm trying to practice what I preach. That's what

429
00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:56,876
Speaker 3: we all need to do if we're especially if we're

430
00:24:56,876 --> 00:25:00,715
Speaker 3: writers and communicating about these things.

431
00:25:00,755 --> 00:25:05,116
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's so true. Let's talk about AI

432
00:25:05,596 --> 00:25:11,396
Speaker 1: and what why sleep could really be this neat thing

433
00:25:11,515 --> 00:25:14,156
Speaker 1: to show us humans need sleep? You know, in this

434
00:25:14,316 --> 00:25:18,355
Speaker 1: age where the lines are going to be blurred and

435
00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:21,955
Speaker 1: it's going to become what is a human? And how

436
00:25:22,035 --> 00:25:24,236
Speaker 1: is this machine different? Let's talk a little bit about that.

437
00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:28,676
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I think the AI moment that we're in

438
00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:31,196
Speaker 3: is like a major disruption.

439
00:25:31,356 --> 00:25:33,636
Speaker 2: It's like the beginning of a whole new era.

440
00:25:33,755 --> 00:25:36,515
Speaker 1: I think, Yes, I agree, and yeah.

441
00:25:36,156 --> 00:25:38,836
Speaker 3: And I think part of the timing of me writing

442
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,075
Speaker 3: a book about sleep is tied to that, because I

443
00:25:41,156 --> 00:25:45,636
Speaker 3: do think AI is introducing in a new kind of

444
00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:49,116
Speaker 3: a newly urgent way, the question what does it mean

445
00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:52,996
Speaker 3: to the human? As AI begins to do a lot

446
00:25:53,035 --> 00:25:56,156
Speaker 3: of skills that we used to think we're only the

447
00:25:56,196 --> 00:26:00,636
Speaker 3: domain of humans. And I know this very well. It's

448
00:26:00,916 --> 00:26:03,476
Speaker 3: close to home for me as a writer, yeah, because

449
00:26:04,156 --> 00:26:06,835
Speaker 3: I can already see how AI might put me out

450
00:26:06,876 --> 00:26:09,556
Speaker 3: of a job, because it can write in a very

451
00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:13,116
Speaker 3: powerful way. So it's even forcing me to think about,

452
00:26:13,235 --> 00:26:16,315
Speaker 3: like as a creator, as a writer, like what is

453
00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:20,156
Speaker 3: the uniquely human contribution that I that I can make?

454
00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:22,476
Speaker 2: And as I think about those.

455
00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:28,515
Speaker 3: Questions of what makes humans different, I think limitation is

456
00:26:28,515 --> 00:26:32,436
Speaker 3: a big part of that. Part of our humanity is

457
00:26:32,755 --> 00:26:37,116
Speaker 3: the fact that God intentionally created us to not be limitless,

458
00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:40,876
Speaker 3: to not be to not be able to be infinite

459
00:26:40,955 --> 00:26:44,835
Speaker 3: like he is. He is the creator, we are the creatures.

460
00:26:45,035 --> 00:26:49,596
Speaker 3: There's a vast chasm between Creator and creatures. And whenever

461
00:26:49,715 --> 00:26:53,356
Speaker 3: humans have gotten tempted to want to be like God,

462
00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:55,596
Speaker 3: that's where they get into trouble. It with Adam and

463
00:26:55,636 --> 00:26:58,475
Speaker 3: Eve's original sin in the Garden of Eden, they didn't

464
00:26:58,475 --> 00:27:01,595
Speaker 3: want to have limitations. They wanted to be infinite like God.

465
00:27:02,436 --> 00:27:07,995
Speaker 3: And I think AI and other technologies today are presenting

466
00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:11,796
Speaker 3: that same temptation to us in a really powerful way,

467
00:27:11,916 --> 00:27:16,475
Speaker 3: Like you can have omniscience like God. That's what AI promises.

468
00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:20,955
Speaker 3: It's like infinite knowledge, any knowledge, any question you are

469
00:27:20,995 --> 00:27:25,436
Speaker 3: curious about. AI can give you instant insight into that.

470
00:27:26,035 --> 00:27:28,755
Speaker 3: You know, the Internet has already given us the illusion

471
00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:32,556
Speaker 3: of omnipresence. You know, you can like be zooming as

472
00:27:32,556 --> 00:27:34,955
Speaker 3: we are. You know, with someone on the other side

473
00:27:34,955 --> 00:27:37,996
Speaker 3: of the world, you can you know, be in multiple

474
00:27:37,995 --> 00:27:41,676
Speaker 3: places at once. And so all of these technologies are

475
00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:46,436
Speaker 3: kind of expressions of that same original temptation to want

476
00:27:46,475 --> 00:27:53,836
Speaker 3: to transcend our creaturely limits that God placed in our

477
00:27:54,035 --> 00:28:00,116
Speaker 3: very design. And so I think wisdom comes by embracing

478
00:28:00,156 --> 00:28:03,835
Speaker 3: the limits, like and I think we would do well

479
00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:07,035
Speaker 3: as humans in the age of AI to be clear that, like,

480
00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:10,555
Speaker 3: we are nothing like machines. We actually do turn off

481
00:28:11,035 --> 00:28:14,715
Speaker 3: and it's good for us and it's not all about

482
00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:21,436
Speaker 3: just producing and optimizing. Humans also believe in grace and

483
00:28:22,156 --> 00:28:26,355
Speaker 3: this kind of gratuitous nature of life, like things are

484
00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:29,556
Speaker 3: more beautiful than they need to be, and machines can't

485
00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:34,396
Speaker 3: think that way. AI thinks practically inefficiently, and that's another

486
00:28:34,475 --> 00:28:39,115
Speaker 3: difference between humans and AI. And AI would never be

487
00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:42,676
Speaker 3: able to see the beauty in something like sleep, but

488
00:28:42,796 --> 00:28:45,156
Speaker 3: humans can. And that's what my book is trying to

489
00:28:45,756 --> 00:28:50,116
Speaker 3: get at so yeah, it's a timely topic, yeah, for

490
00:28:50,236 --> 00:28:52,916
Speaker 3: us to contemplate in this technological movement.

491
00:28:53,676 --> 00:28:57,156
Speaker 1: I remember years ago we were doing like a day

492
00:28:57,236 --> 00:28:59,596
Speaker 1: hike in the Rocky mountains and my husband loves to

493
00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:03,156
Speaker 1: bring his little hammock and like his favorite feeling is hiking,

494
00:29:03,236 --> 00:29:05,315
Speaker 1: you know, for two hours and then putting a hammock

495
00:29:05,356 --> 00:29:07,876
Speaker 1: between two trees and laying there. He just loves that

496
00:29:08,036 --> 00:29:11,756
Speaker 1: so much. And I think that is what AI cannot do.

497
00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:14,916
Speaker 1: You know, that doesn't need to do. It doesn't understand that,

498
00:29:15,036 --> 00:29:18,756
Speaker 1: but something uniquely human and it may it's funny because

499
00:29:18,756 --> 00:29:21,156
Speaker 1: you can see, like a little comic strip be almost mockable,

500
00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:23,075
Speaker 1: like this is what AI can't do. And it's like

501
00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:25,676
Speaker 1: someone curled up and taking a nap, and you know,

502
00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:29,436
Speaker 1: it's kind of mocking because the person can't keep working,

503
00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:32,516
Speaker 1: but your AI can keep working. But instead of a negative,

504
00:29:32,556 --> 00:29:35,516
Speaker 1: that's a positive. So it's like like someone in a

505
00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:40,796
Speaker 1: really snuggy outfit sleeping and how wonderful that is. You

506
00:29:40,996 --> 00:29:44,676
Speaker 1: have helped us enjoy sleep more and think of the

507
00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:47,796
Speaker 1: theology of sleep by thinking, Wow, God created this and

508
00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:51,796
Speaker 1: all that he created was good, and that this is

509
00:29:51,836 --> 00:29:54,916
Speaker 1: something good for us. Thank you so much for writing

510
00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:57,436
Speaker 1: this about one of my favorite subjects of sleep. How

511
00:29:57,476 --> 00:30:00,116
Speaker 1: can people find out more about you and your book

512
00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:01,635
Speaker 1: The Wisdom of Sleep?

513
00:30:02,196 --> 00:30:04,076
Speaker 2: Oh? Thank you. It's been a fun conversation.

514
00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:06,956
Speaker 3: So you can buy the book on Amazon or anywhere

515
00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:09,916
Speaker 3: you buy books, and then you can find out more

516
00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:13,036
Speaker 3: about me and my other books and my writing at

517
00:30:13,076 --> 00:30:15,076
Speaker 3: Brett McCracken dot com.

518
00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:18,596
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time and your expertise

519
00:30:18,756 --> 00:30:21,556
Speaker 1: with done Brett, Thanks so much for coming on. I

520
00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:24,916
Speaker 1: hope you've enjoyed today's conversation. I'd love to keep in

521
00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:28,835
Speaker 1: touch beyond this podcast. Click subscribe in the show notes

522
00:30:28,916 --> 00:30:31,356
Speaker 1: and I will give you my latest email to keep

523
00:30:31,436 --> 00:30:35,316
Speaker 1: up on what's happening with technology and kids. And maybe

524
00:30:35,356 --> 00:30:38,115
Speaker 1: you like reading or listening to books. I have a

525
00:30:38,156 --> 00:30:40,716
Speaker 1: lot of books you could start with The Big Three,

526
00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:46,276
Speaker 1: Making Marriage Easier, Parents Rising, or Screen Kids. A big

527
00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:48,516
Speaker 1: thank you to the team at Life Audio for their

528
00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:52,436
Speaker 1: partnership with the Happy Home podcast. Check out lifeaudio dot

529
00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:56,116
Speaker 1: com for dozens of other FADE related podcasts about prayer,

530
00:30:56,436 --> 00:31:00,236
Speaker 1: Bible study, and more. Remember you don't have to come

531
00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:03,356
Speaker 1: from a happy Home to create one. You too, can

532
00:31:03,476 --> 00:31:04,716
Speaker 1: have a happy home,