1 00:00:05,510 --> 00:00:10,010 Speaker 1: Welcome to Christian Parent Crazy World, the podcast that tackles 2 00:00:10,070 --> 00:00:13,010 Speaker 1: tough topics to help you be a godly parent in 3 00:00:13,050 --> 00:00:16,669 Speaker 1: an ungodly world. I am your host, Katherine Segers, and 4 00:00:16,750 --> 00:00:21,130 Speaker 1: in today's episode, we will tackle this very challenging question. 5 00:00:21,790 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: How can a good God allow so much evil and 6 00:00:25,090 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: suffering in the world? You know, this may be the 7 00:00:28,380 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: most challenging question I've ever covered on CPCW. It's certainly 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,580 Speaker 1: a question that keeps me up at night. And I'm 9 00:00:35,620 --> 00:00:40,659 Speaker 1: not alone. According to recent Barna research, reconciling a good 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: God with an evil world is the number one barrier 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,470 Speaker 1: to the Christian faith for the next generation. Now, as parents, 12 00:00:49,530 --> 00:00:52,350 Speaker 1: if there is an obstacle to our kids' faith, we 13 00:00:52,430 --> 00:00:55,910 Speaker 1: need to be prepared with some answers. My special guest 14 00:00:55,930 --> 00:00:59,850 Speaker 1: today will help us do just that. That's the plan 15 00:00:59,900 --> 00:01:12,420 Speaker 1: for this episode of Christian Parent Crazy World. Hey, everybody. 16 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: Today's episode is one I've wanted to bring back for 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,290 Speaker 1: a while. It was my very first conversation with someone 18 00:01:19,370 --> 00:01:23,690 Speaker 1: I have admired for so many years, Dr. Douglas Groteis. 19 00:01:23,970 --> 00:01:26,790 Speaker 1: I will introduce him more fully in just a moment. 20 00:01:27,310 --> 00:01:30,740 Speaker 1: But today's topic is one that our kids wrestle with 21 00:01:31,060 --> 00:01:34,990 Speaker 1: and hate. so do we as parents, as adults, and 22 00:01:35,230 --> 00:01:39,390 Speaker 1: as maturing believers. In fact, it may be the hardest 23 00:01:39,590 --> 00:01:43,890 Speaker 1: question we face in our faith. How can a good 24 00:01:44,060 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: God allow so much evil and suffering in the world? 25 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,060 Speaker 1: And to be clear, every worldview and belief system is 26 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: has to wrestle with the problem of evil and suffering. Now, 27 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: I believe Christianity has the best answers, but they aren't 28 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,740 Speaker 1: easy answers, and they don't get wrapped up with pretty 29 00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: little bows. I say all of that because I had 30 00:02:08,940 --> 00:02:12,060 Speaker 1: hoped to bring a brand new episode to you this week, 31 00:02:12,860 --> 00:02:16,019 Speaker 1: but I can't. I am heading out of town for 32 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:20,620 Speaker 1: a funeral, the unexpected funeral of a young man who 33 00:02:20,660 --> 00:02:24,669 Speaker 1: should still be with us. but he isn't. His own 34 00:02:24,770 --> 00:02:28,609 Speaker 1: suffering was so great that he chose to end his life. 35 00:02:29,410 --> 00:02:32,070 Speaker 1: And the suffering that his family and our faith community 36 00:02:32,850 --> 00:02:36,419 Speaker 1: are grappling with right now, well, there are just no 37 00:02:36,820 --> 00:02:42,460 Speaker 1: words to adequately describe it. I need this episode right now. 38 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:43,460 Speaker 2: I need Dr. 39 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: Grotice's words about suffering, about God, and about how we 40 00:02:48,380 --> 00:02:53,130 Speaker 1: make sense of the inexplicable. And I want to tell 41 00:02:53,190 --> 00:02:56,410 Speaker 1: you about a brand new episode coming your way next 42 00:02:56,510 --> 00:03:00,530 Speaker 1: week with Dr. Tyler Evans, who is a fierce advocate 43 00:03:00,570 --> 00:03:04,290 Speaker 1: for men's mental health. A recent column of his in 44 00:03:04,330 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: Men's Health, which is a huge online publication, highlighted the 45 00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:16,100 Speaker 1: staggering statistic that approximately 80% of suicides are committed by males. 46 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,180 Speaker 1: I had no idea. But that column arrived in my 47 00:03:20,220 --> 00:03:24,580 Speaker 1: mailbox on the very day I learned that my former student, 48 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:26,859 Speaker 1: a young man who was on my son's baseball team 49 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:31,450 Speaker 1: for years, had ended his life. I knew I had 50 00:03:31,470 --> 00:03:35,510 Speaker 1: to do something, especially since September is National Suicide Awareness 51 00:03:35,630 --> 00:03:39,030 Speaker 1: Prevention Month. So next week, we are going to talk 52 00:03:39,250 --> 00:03:43,510 Speaker 1: about men's mental health. And I know that this isn't 53 00:03:43,530 --> 00:03:47,620 Speaker 1: a pleasant or popular topic, but it is such an 54 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: important one. We are going to raise some awareness. We're 55 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: going to talk about mental suffering. And we're going to 56 00:03:53,460 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: do our best to alleviate some of it. And I 57 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,630 Speaker 1: pray that in some small way, we might even save 58 00:04:00,690 --> 00:04:05,070 Speaker 1: some lives. But for today, we are going back to 59 00:04:05,110 --> 00:04:09,510 Speaker 1: a conversation that feels real. remarkably timely. My very special 60 00:04:09,550 --> 00:04:14,010 Speaker 1: guest is one of the great apologetic minds of our time, Dr. 61 00:04:14,290 --> 00:04:18,850 Speaker 1: Douglas Grotice. He has been interviewed literally thousands of times. 62 00:04:18,910 --> 00:04:21,670 Speaker 1: He is the author of 20 books and counting, including 63 00:04:22,210 --> 00:04:26,540 Speaker 1: my massive Christian apologetics textbook, which is called A Comprehensive 64 00:04:26,620 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: Case for Biblical Faith. That is a great book to 65 00:04:29,779 --> 00:04:33,300 Speaker 1: get for your library. It was my primary text in 66 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,140 Speaker 1: my master's program, at Colorado Christian University. Yeah, you could 67 00:04:38,220 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: use that book as a doorstop or a weapon. I'm 68 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,140 Speaker 1: not recommending that, by the way. It's far better uses. 69 00:04:44,180 --> 00:04:46,580 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that you could because that thing carries 70 00:04:46,620 --> 00:04:52,250 Speaker 1: a lot of weight, both physically and theologically. Dr. Groteis 71 00:04:52,430 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: currently serves as the Distinguished University Research Professor of Apologetics 72 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: and Christian Worldview at Cornerstone University. This man is adorned 73 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: with so many accolades and he has plenty of letters 74 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:08,260 Speaker 1: after his name. He truly has a brilliant mind and 75 00:05:08,339 --> 00:05:11,060 Speaker 1: he has employed that mind for God's glory and the 76 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,110 Speaker 1: good of the church for many decades. But what struck 77 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,310 Speaker 1: me most in this conversation is not simply how brilliantly Dr. 78 00:05:19,410 --> 00:05:23,349 Speaker 1: Groteis thinks through the great perplexities of the faith through 79 00:05:23,410 --> 00:05:26,580 Speaker 1: scripture and the lens of our faith. It's really how 80 00:05:26,660 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: he learned to live that faith in the midst of 81 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:34,180 Speaker 1: profound personal heartache. And that is precisely what we're talking 82 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,550 Speaker 1: about today. How can a good God allow so much 83 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: evil and suffering in the world? Dr. Groteis, now he's 84 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:42,820 Speaker 1: going to have some masterful thoughts on that question, but 85 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: he also shares his own deeply personal experience with suffering 86 00:05:48,140 --> 00:05:51,700 Speaker 1: following the loss of his late wife, Rebecca. His journey 87 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,940 Speaker 1: is powerful. It's poignant. And ultimately, Dr. Groteis comes to 88 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: the question that suffering brings every believer at some point, 89 00:06:01,060 --> 00:06:03,950 Speaker 1: or it should. It's a question that Peter asks in 90 00:06:04,010 --> 00:06:07,210 Speaker 1: the gospel. So be listening for that as you listen 91 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: to this conversation. With that said, I will take you 92 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: to my conversation with Dr. Douglas Groteis. Welcome to the program, Dr. Groteis. 93 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: It's such an honor to have you here. 94 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:22,090 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I'm happy to be here. It took 95 00:06:22,150 --> 00:06:24,089 Speaker 2: us a little while to get our schedules worked out, 96 00:06:24,170 --> 00:06:25,270 Speaker 2: but we prevailed. 97 00:06:25,670 --> 00:06:28,010 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm glad you're feeling better. You know, I want 98 00:06:28,029 --> 00:06:31,010 Speaker 1: to give you center stage in this episode because you 99 00:06:31,060 --> 00:06:32,700 Speaker 1: are the maestro. You are the one that can really 100 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: help us to understand this topic. But first, I want 101 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: to I want to set the stage and tell our 102 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,380 Speaker 1: listeners why I chose this topic and why I chose 103 00:06:40,500 --> 00:06:44,119 Speaker 1: you to address it. This show started with the youth 104 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: exodus as a central focus. The fact that a majority 105 00:06:47,339 --> 00:06:49,669 Speaker 1: of Christian kids are leaving the faith after they leave 106 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:51,710 Speaker 1: the nest was something that was just burning in my heart. 107 00:06:51,730 --> 00:06:53,990 Speaker 1: And I wanted to create a podcast that would help 108 00:06:54,150 --> 00:06:57,810 Speaker 1: really busy parents understand the faith better and build their 109 00:06:57,850 --> 00:07:00,830 Speaker 1: children's faith better and defend the faith better. That was 110 00:07:00,910 --> 00:07:02,970 Speaker 1: just one of my primary concerns as a parent. So 111 00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:05,090 Speaker 1: I know that other parents felt that way as well. 112 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: And well, a few months ago, I was doing some 113 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: research for a series we did on Gen Z, and 114 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: I was interviewing Dr. Jonathan Morrow. He's with Impact 360, 115 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,270 Speaker 1: and he works very closely with David Kinnaman of Barna Research. 116 00:07:18,910 --> 00:07:21,030 Speaker 1: And in that research I was doing for the show, 117 00:07:21,170 --> 00:07:24,930 Speaker 1: I ran across something that I hadn't known. It kind of. 118 00:07:25,420 --> 00:07:27,740 Speaker 1: It wasn't shocking to me. It wasn't surprising, but I 119 00:07:27,780 --> 00:07:30,860 Speaker 1: didn't realize what a big issue this was. And that 120 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:34,900 Speaker 1: was the number one barrier that Gen Z has to 121 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,910 Speaker 1: the Christian faith. The statistic I saw said that 29% 122 00:07:39,910 --> 00:07:42,990 Speaker 1: of Gen Z members said the biggest barrier to the 123 00:07:43,010 --> 00:07:47,010 Speaker 1: Christian faith is that they have a hard time believing 124 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:51,150 Speaker 1: a good God would allow so much evil or suffering 125 00:07:51,550 --> 00:07:54,430 Speaker 1: in the world. And about that time, I had contacted 126 00:07:54,490 --> 00:07:56,590 Speaker 1: you and you so graciously agreed to come on the show. 127 00:07:56,650 --> 00:07:58,890 Speaker 1: And I was like, what should I ask you about? 128 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:02,410 Speaker 1: Because you are eminently qualified to talk about any topic 129 00:08:02,450 --> 00:08:06,350 Speaker 1: in the field of apologetics or theology or philosophy. And 130 00:08:06,370 --> 00:08:09,510 Speaker 1: I honestly, I felt like I got one wish from 131 00:08:09,550 --> 00:08:11,250 Speaker 1: a genie. I could ask you anything. What am I 132 00:08:11,270 --> 00:08:13,770 Speaker 1: going to spend my wish on? But the more I 133 00:08:13,810 --> 00:08:17,220 Speaker 1: thought about the biggest barrier this next generation has to 134 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:18,980 Speaker 1: the Christian faith, I knew that that was what I 135 00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:21,980 Speaker 1: should spend my one wish or my one question on. 136 00:08:22,670 --> 00:08:25,530 Speaker 1: Because you're the perfect person to answer that. But one 137 00:08:25,550 --> 00:08:28,070 Speaker 1: more thing I do have to acknowledge. I've got your wonderful, 138 00:08:28,210 --> 00:08:31,330 Speaker 1: I've got the first edition of your Christian Apologetics book here. 139 00:08:31,610 --> 00:08:35,209 Speaker 1: And you begin to address this topic on page 614 140 00:08:35,210 --> 00:08:40,569 Speaker 1: of a 752 page book. So you have built at 141 00:08:40,610 --> 00:08:45,630 Speaker 1: this point a thoroughly, impeccably researched and argued powerful and 142 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:48,980 Speaker 1: overwhelming case. I believe, for the God of the Bible 143 00:08:49,020 --> 00:08:53,140 Speaker 1: and the Christian faith before you tackle the topic of 144 00:08:53,220 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: reconciling an evil world with a very good God. So 145 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,380 Speaker 1: I have to acknowledge that we are skipping to the 146 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,870 Speaker 1: end of your comprehensive argument for defending the Christian faith. 147 00:09:02,929 --> 00:09:07,970 Speaker 1: You can't possibly condense 613 pages into a 30-second soundbite 148 00:09:08,250 --> 00:09:11,479 Speaker 1: for us. But so how do we go about explaining 149 00:09:11,500 --> 00:09:15,390 Speaker 1: the First of all, understanding ourself and then explaining to 150 00:09:15,429 --> 00:09:18,830 Speaker 1: this next generation how a good God could have created 151 00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:22,130 Speaker 1: a world with so much evil and suffering in it. 152 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: Well, I did put that chapter towards the end for 153 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: that very reason, because we have lots of positive constructive 154 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: evidence that there is a creator and designer. We have 155 00:09:34,980 --> 00:09:38,530 Speaker 2: that from science and philosophy and so on. I've got 156 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: over 200 pages arguing that. for the objective existence of 157 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: a creator, designer, lawgiver of the world. And that evidence 158 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:52,670 Speaker 2: doesn't just go away when this problem emerges. And then also, 159 00:09:52,730 --> 00:09:56,030 Speaker 2: let me just state the problem. The idea is that 160 00:09:56,130 --> 00:09:59,730 Speaker 2: Christianity claims that there is a God who is both 161 00:09:59,940 --> 00:10:04,660 Speaker 2: all good and all powerful and also there is objective 162 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,900 Speaker 2: evil of various kinds what we call natural evil like 163 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,790 Speaker 2: tornadoes floods earthquakes and what is called moral evil human 164 00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:21,020 Speaker 2: cruelty uh injustice, rape, genocide, all these horrible things. So 165 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:25,420 Speaker 2: one of the tests of a worldview, any worldview, is 166 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:31,010 Speaker 2: whether its essential claims or truth claims cohere with one another. 167 00:10:31,730 --> 00:10:34,929 Speaker 2: So the idea is that if God is all powerful, 168 00:10:35,809 --> 00:10:39,740 Speaker 2: he could have not allowed any evil at all, or 169 00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:42,530 Speaker 2: at least not as much as there is. And if 170 00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:45,550 Speaker 2: he's all good, he would want to not have any evil, 171 00:10:45,650 --> 00:10:48,530 Speaker 2: or at least not as much as we see. So 172 00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:51,070 Speaker 2: the idea is that if you have these propositions, God 173 00:10:51,110 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: is all good, God is all powerful, and there is 174 00:10:54,130 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: a lot of evil, that this is an inconsistent triad 175 00:10:58,980 --> 00:11:03,699 Speaker 2: of statements. Now, before I address that, we need to 176 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: point out that every worldview has a problem of evil. 177 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:16,030 Speaker 2: It's not just Christianity. The atheist says there is evil 178 00:11:16,190 --> 00:11:19,150 Speaker 2: and therefore there's no God, but the atheist has the 179 00:11:19,170 --> 00:11:23,380 Speaker 2: problem of the good, basically. So if the universe is 180 00:11:23,429 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: just here, it's not created, it's not designed, there's no 181 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: moral lawgiver, all there is is the cosmos. As Carl 182 00:11:31,059 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: Sagan said all those years ago, the cosmos is all 183 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,540 Speaker 2: that is, was, or ever will be. Well, then it's 184 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: hard to even have an account of what objective moral 185 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: good would be, because all you have is matter arranged 186 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: according to impersonal natural laws without any purpose, meaning, or destiny. 187 00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:56,070 Speaker 2: So the atheist really has the problem of how do 188 00:11:56,110 --> 00:12:00,350 Speaker 2: you even ground something as good or virtuous? And then 189 00:12:00,650 --> 00:12:06,850 Speaker 2: another possibility is what's called pantheism, which is the view 190 00:12:06,890 --> 00:12:10,300 Speaker 2: that everything is divine. There's no distinction between God and 191 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,099 Speaker 2: the creation. But this God or this deity is not 192 00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:19,340 Speaker 2: a personal moral being. It's just an impersonal something, an it, basically. 193 00:12:20,380 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: And pantheists are usually also what are called monists or non-dualists. 194 00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:28,809 Speaker 2: So they say that everything is God and everything is one. Well, 195 00:12:28,850 --> 00:12:31,610 Speaker 2: if everything is one, then you can't even find a 196 00:12:31,650 --> 00:12:35,189 Speaker 2: distinction between good and evil, between virtue and vice. And 197 00:12:36,010 --> 00:12:39,829 Speaker 2: pantheist mystics will tell you that you go into a 198 00:12:39,870 --> 00:12:44,150 Speaker 2: higher state of consciousness, that whole division and distinction between 199 00:12:44,190 --> 00:12:46,809 Speaker 2: good and evil just fades away like a bad dream. 200 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:49,870 Speaker 1: Don't they usually say something along the lines that it's 201 00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:54,270 Speaker 1: either enlightened or unenlightened behavior, not necessarily good or evil behavior? 202 00:12:55,070 --> 00:12:58,500 Speaker 2: Well, they might. You see, it's very hard to practically 203 00:12:58,580 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 2: live out a worldview that's able because you hear of 204 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: a rape or you hear of a terrible killing in 205 00:13:06,140 --> 00:13:11,530 Speaker 2: a war and you're instinctive. You're Impulse is to condemn it. Now, 206 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:14,050 Speaker 2: we can explain that as Christians. We have a conscience 207 00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:17,610 Speaker 2: God gave us. But see, on this view, this pantheistic, 208 00:13:17,710 --> 00:13:23,370 Speaker 2: non-dualistic view, that's the world of division, the world of duality. 209 00:13:23,410 --> 00:13:26,130 Speaker 2: They call it the world of maya or illusion. And 210 00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: the person that is truly enlightened will transcend that and 211 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 2: leave all that behind. Well, that, I think, is a 212 00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: terrible strike against that worldview. Because if you can't identify 213 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 2: evil as evil. 214 00:13:38,820 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: Then your worldview doesn't account for something all too real 215 00:13:42,820 --> 00:13:47,060 Speaker 2: in our world. So the atheist often uses evil as 216 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:50,620 Speaker 2: an argument against God, but they can't even ground the 217 00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:54,020 Speaker 2: idea of an objective moral good. And you need the 218 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: idea of objective moral good to understand evil because evil 219 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,330 Speaker 2: is the opposite of what is good. 220 00:14:02,970 --> 00:14:03,910 Speaker 1: Right. Okay. 221 00:14:04,650 --> 00:14:08,010 Speaker 2: So I'm moving, of course, very quickly here. But let's 222 00:14:08,030 --> 00:14:11,290 Speaker 2: come to the Christian view, and that is that God 223 00:14:11,330 --> 00:14:13,370 Speaker 2: is all good and God is all powerful and there 224 00:14:13,429 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: is evil. So the way that Christians approach this is 225 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:30,530 Speaker 2: that whatever evil God allows in the world, he will 226 00:14:30,730 --> 00:14:35,030 Speaker 2: use for a greater good that would not be available otherwise. 227 00:14:35,980 --> 00:14:38,300 Speaker 2: This is sometimes called the greater good defense, and it's 228 00:14:38,380 --> 00:14:41,780 Speaker 2: how I approach the issue. Now, remember, it's building on 229 00:14:41,820 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: a foundation of very strong arguments for a creator, designer, 230 00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: and moral lawgiver. Now, you might say, well, why think 231 00:14:51,020 --> 00:14:58,590 Speaker 2: that there's a greater good when something seemingly pointless happens 232 00:14:58,710 --> 00:15:02,370 Speaker 2: or without meaning happens? And let me very much personalize this. 233 00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:06,460 Speaker 2: I published a book some years ago called Walking Through Twilight, 234 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,910 Speaker 2: A Wife's Illness, A Philosopher's Lament. It was published by InterVarsity. 235 00:15:10,930 --> 00:15:16,050 Speaker 2: And that's the story of my first wife, Rebecca, contracting 236 00:15:16,070 --> 00:15:19,890 Speaker 2: a rare form of dementia. And she's since passed away 237 00:15:19,970 --> 00:15:24,489 Speaker 2: five years ago. But I had to wrestle with this. 238 00:15:24,530 --> 00:15:29,260 Speaker 2: And of course, Rebecca had to very personally experience this, uh, 239 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: terrible evil because Rebecca was a brilliant woman. In fact, 240 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,900 Speaker 2: right here at my desk, I have her Mensa card. 241 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:42,670 Speaker 2: Mensa is the International High IQ Society. They never asked 242 00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:47,730 Speaker 2: me to be in it, but she was certifiably in 243 00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:52,250 Speaker 2: the genius IQ category. So I asked her years ago 244 00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:54,610 Speaker 2: if she wanted to be in Mensa. She said, oh, no, 245 00:15:54,670 --> 00:15:57,270 Speaker 2: those people are just snobs. I said, well, why don't 246 00:15:57,310 --> 00:15:59,450 Speaker 2: you join? It'll kind of help your resume. She was 247 00:15:59,490 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: writing books and so on. So she wrote two books. 248 00:16:02,050 --> 00:16:05,660 Speaker 2: She edited books. She edited all my books. In fact, 249 00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:07,420 Speaker 2: that book you have there is the last book that 250 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: she was able to edit. So here she gets this 251 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: terrible degenerative disease called primary progressive aphasia. And I'm a 252 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,990 Speaker 2: philosopher and I have taught apologetics all these years. Now, 253 00:16:21,510 --> 00:16:24,210 Speaker 2: I don't think that I have to be able to 254 00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:30,890 Speaker 2: explain why this happened in order for it to have meaning. 255 00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:35,989 Speaker 2: So it's one thing to say that an evil is pointless. 256 00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:37,890 Speaker 2: It's another thing to say, I don't know what the 257 00:16:37,930 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: point of it is. So if I have lots of 258 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:47,859 Speaker 2: good background evidence to believe the Christian worldview, and the 259 00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:52,470 Speaker 2: Christian worldview says that suffering is not wasted in God's economy, 260 00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:56,710 Speaker 2: in God's providence, Then when I'm going through, my wife's 261 00:16:56,750 --> 00:17:01,989 Speaker 2: going through this terrible form of suffering, I can basically 262 00:17:02,110 --> 00:17:06,100 Speaker 2: trust the God who I know for the things I 263 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:10,020 Speaker 2: can't understand. I can trust the God who I know 264 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: is there for the things that I can't understand. Now, 265 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,940 Speaker 2: here's where you really have to bring in, not just 266 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:20,980 Speaker 2: there is a creator and a designer, but God has 267 00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:26,700 Speaker 2: revealed himself in history. In the Bible, in the many 268 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,900 Speaker 2: different books, different genres, you have historical accounts of how 269 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:37,169 Speaker 2: God interacts with the world. And God tells us that 270 00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:40,750 Speaker 2: God created the world to be good, but human beings 271 00:17:40,810 --> 00:17:45,490 Speaker 2: fell into sin, Genesis 3, but that God continues to 272 00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:47,850 Speaker 2: pursue human beings and he hasn't given up on us. 273 00:17:47,910 --> 00:17:52,669 Speaker 2: So he sends prophets, he reveals himself in nature, and ultimately... 274 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 2: He reveals himself in the incarnation in Jesus of Nazareth. 275 00:17:58,740 --> 00:18:02,750 Speaker 2: And what the story of Jesus tells us in reliable 276 00:18:03,170 --> 00:18:08,890 Speaker 2: historical documents is that God is very concerned about this 277 00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:13,270 Speaker 2: world that has fallen into sin, so much so that 278 00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:16,260 Speaker 2: he would become one of the characters in the play 279 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 2: that he wrote, so to speak, to use some of 280 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,300 Speaker 2: the words. C.S. Lewis's and Tolkien's understanding of that, the 281 00:18:22,380 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: author became a character. And so in the person of Jesus, 282 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: you see his miracles, his fulfillment of prophecy, the wisdom 283 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,700 Speaker 2: of his teaching. And he said that he would die 284 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: in order to reconcile us to God. He would atone 285 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 2: for our sins and that he would rise again from 286 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: the dead three days later. And I argue at length 287 00:18:43,859 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 2: in the book that we have good and sufficient reasons 288 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,130 Speaker 2: to believe this, in fact, happened. So if this happened, 289 00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:54,370 Speaker 2: then it's not just there is a God who could 290 00:18:54,410 --> 00:18:58,030 Speaker 2: work things out. We know this from the arguments for 291 00:18:58,070 --> 00:19:01,090 Speaker 2: God's existence. This is called natural theology, but this God 292 00:19:01,869 --> 00:19:05,730 Speaker 2: has a name. He has a lot of names, but 293 00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: the word became flesh and dwelt among us full of 294 00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: grace and truth. And that is Jesus of Nazareth. So 295 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: let me give you a brief story about Rebecca. We 296 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,750 Speaker 2: were on our way to go out to dinner, we 297 00:19:18,790 --> 00:19:22,490 Speaker 2: went to Olive Garden quite a bit to dinner because 298 00:19:22,550 --> 00:19:25,150 Speaker 2: it was a place she understood. And there was even 299 00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:27,310 Speaker 2: some people there that knew she had dementia, so they 300 00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:29,690 Speaker 2: would help her, like help her go to the ladies 301 00:19:29,770 --> 00:19:32,950 Speaker 2: room and so on. And I'm a firm believer that 302 00:19:33,050 --> 00:19:34,570 Speaker 2: ladies belong in ladies rooms. 303 00:19:35,410 --> 00:19:36,170 Speaker 1: Thank you. 304 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,020 Speaker 2: I'm not going to go in there with her. Anyway, 305 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,780 Speaker 2: we were on our way there and she was really 306 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,290 Speaker 2: struggling with her fate because she's literally losing her mind. 307 00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:53,060 Speaker 2: This brilliant woman, writer. editor and I said Becky you 308 00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:54,940 Speaker 2: know one day this will all be in the past 309 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 2: and we'll both be in the new heavens and the 310 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: new earth and there'll be no tears and it'll all 311 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: be it'll be fine one day and she said she 312 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,460 Speaker 2: said Doug but is it really true now now Becky 313 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,790 Speaker 2: had always been a believer She was very strong in 314 00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:15,490 Speaker 2: her faith. But something as horrible as dementia can really 315 00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:18,869 Speaker 2: shake you to the core. So I said something to 316 00:20:18,910 --> 00:20:20,650 Speaker 2: her that kind of surprised me. I think the Lord 317 00:20:20,770 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: prompted me to say it. I said, Becky, do you 318 00:20:23,740 --> 00:20:26,420 Speaker 2: think I'm smart? She said, yeah, I think you're smart. 319 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: I said, do you remember that big apologetics book that 320 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,300 Speaker 2: I wrote called Christian Apologetics? She said, yes. I said, well, 321 00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:38,030 Speaker 2: you edited every word of that book. And I assure 322 00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:42,149 Speaker 2: you that what we believe is right. true there are 323 00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:45,330 Speaker 2: good arguments for what we believe so in a way 324 00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:48,590 Speaker 2: i was kind of helping her believe because of the 325 00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:52,570 Speaker 2: um decay of her own ability to remember and to 326 00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: think and to and she said yes yes it. 327 00:20:57,580 --> 00:20:59,659 Speaker 1: Is true that's beautiful. 328 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,739 Speaker 2: Now that you know that wasn't the end of her 329 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,419 Speaker 2: struggles or my struggles but you see it gave us 330 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:09,420 Speaker 2: a very firm foundation because through a lot of this 331 00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:14,050 Speaker 2: suffering We didn't feel God's presence. We didn't feel God's goodness. 332 00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:16,990 Speaker 2: There was a lot of confusion, a lot of anger. 333 00:21:18,270 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 2: But we really, and I'll use it literally, you know, 334 00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, we would know that 335 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,660 Speaker 2: God was good and God was all powerful. And this 336 00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:31,899 Speaker 2: is not the end of the story. 337 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:32,780 Speaker 1: Right. 338 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,500 Speaker 2: You know, when I was with Becky, when she passed away, 339 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,619 Speaker 2: it was not the end of her story. 340 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:39,260 Speaker 1: Mm-mm. 341 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,510 Speaker 2: You know, she left her body, but one day she 342 00:21:42,550 --> 00:21:46,869 Speaker 2: will have a resurrected body, as we are promised in 343 00:21:46,869 --> 00:21:50,430 Speaker 2: 1 Corinthians 15 and elsewhere. So this, to me, is 344 00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:55,990 Speaker 2: very personal. And it was kind of a test of 345 00:21:56,090 --> 00:22:02,510 Speaker 2: the power of my Christian convictions through some very sharp, 346 00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:05,930 Speaker 2: agonizing suffering. 347 00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:11,889 Speaker 1: Yes, I have your book here. Walking Through Twilight. I 348 00:22:11,950 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: have this one as well, beautifully written. You know, I 349 00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:19,629 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing that deeply personal story with us, 350 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: because I think everyone who is listening right now has 351 00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,090 Speaker 1: some kind of story somewhere in their lives. This wasn't 352 00:22:26,170 --> 00:22:28,730 Speaker 1: someone quite as close to me as your wife certainly 353 00:22:28,770 --> 00:22:31,530 Speaker 1: was to you, but my best friend from college, a very, 354 00:22:31,550 --> 00:22:35,409 Speaker 1: very dear friend. Oddly enough, she died of dementia. I 355 00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: don't know the exact diagnosis, but she was 48. 48, 356 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: left three children, not completely out of the house. And 357 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: you look at something like that, the deterioration of the 358 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: mind like that with someone who was so wonderful and 359 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,590 Speaker 1: vibrant and brilliant. And it's heart-wrenching. And we all see 360 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,570 Speaker 1: circumstances like that here. When I look at this topic, 361 00:22:59,630 --> 00:23:02,389 Speaker 1: and particularly, that's what so resonated with me in the 362 00:23:02,430 --> 00:23:06,730 Speaker 1: chapter you wrote about the greater good defense in your 363 00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:10,250 Speaker 1: chapter on the problem of evil. I think that makes 364 00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:17,530 Speaker 1: the most sense, both theologically, logically, and personal experience. Because 365 00:23:17,550 --> 00:23:20,110 Speaker 1: we look in Scripture, obviously, we see it, and you 366 00:23:20,510 --> 00:23:26,770 Speaker 1: highlight this in the book, Genesis 50, verse 20. Joseph's great, 367 00:23:27,070 --> 00:23:29,650 Speaker 1: that wonderful verse, of course, his brother sold him into 368 00:23:29,670 --> 00:23:31,990 Speaker 1: slavery and he ends up being a prisoner for many years. 369 00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:36,310 Speaker 1: And then he, God lifts him up and he says 370 00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:39,550 Speaker 1: that iconic verse, you know, what you meant for harm, 371 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,619 Speaker 1: God meant for good. And the greatest example, obviously is 372 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,740 Speaker 1: the one that you just told us when God entered 373 00:23:49,260 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: as a central character to his own play and became 374 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,710 Speaker 1: Christ and the greatest evil that ever happened. was perpetrated 375 00:23:55,790 --> 00:23:59,590 Speaker 1: on anyone, was the evil of an innocent man dying 376 00:23:59,890 --> 00:24:04,070 Speaker 1: for the sins of all. And yet we see how 377 00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:08,550 Speaker 1: God transitions that and uses the greatest evil to accomplish 378 00:24:08,859 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: the greatest good that humanity has ever known. And so 379 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,740 Speaker 1: Romans 8, 28 is true. He does cause all things 380 00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: to work together for the good of them who love 381 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:23,770 Speaker 1: him and who are called according to to his purpose. 382 00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:27,770 Speaker 1: So I love your story. I have a personal story too, 383 00:24:27,790 --> 00:24:30,270 Speaker 1: where I look back and I think of, we lost 384 00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:33,709 Speaker 1: a child in utero and what the Lord, it was 385 00:24:33,890 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: one of those situations where we had prayed and believed. 386 00:24:36,460 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: And I really felt the Lord saying that he had 387 00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: a daughter for us, another child. And I was in 388 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,860 Speaker 1: my mid forties at the time. It seemed very unlikely, 389 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,939 Speaker 1: but I believed. And then we had a loss on 390 00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:50,570 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving day, no less. And then But the process that 391 00:24:50,609 --> 00:24:52,709 Speaker 1: we went through, I really did see the good that 392 00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:55,470 Speaker 1: came out of it because I really felt the Lord say, okay, 393 00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:58,389 Speaker 1: persevere in faith for this. Believe me for this and 394 00:24:58,450 --> 00:25:01,210 Speaker 1: insist on it in prayer. And we did. And through praying, 395 00:25:01,770 --> 00:25:04,230 Speaker 1: it was close to, you know, eight months in prayer 396 00:25:04,270 --> 00:25:06,070 Speaker 1: we had to spend. But the day that the child 397 00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:09,070 Speaker 1: we lost, we named her Hope. The day that she 398 00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: was due, we found out that we were expecting Evangeline Faith. 399 00:25:13,580 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: And what the Lord did through the harm, through the evil, 400 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: through the suffering, I can truly look back now and 401 00:25:21,740 --> 00:25:24,379 Speaker 1: see all the good that came from it and building 402 00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:27,570 Speaker 1: our spiritual muscles and our prayer muscles. And but sometimes 403 00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:30,230 Speaker 1: we don't always understand that, like you said. And I 404 00:25:30,369 --> 00:25:33,310 Speaker 1: love how you go into the greater good defense. You 405 00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:37,310 Speaker 1: talk about how certain goods we would never be able 406 00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:41,100 Speaker 1: to realize in this life. if it weren't for the 407 00:25:41,130 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: corresponding evil. We couldn't know perseverance if we didn't have 408 00:25:44,540 --> 00:25:47,180 Speaker 1: an obstacle. We couldn't know faith if we didn't have doubt. 409 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: We couldn't know courage if there wasn't a cause for fear. 410 00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:53,420 Speaker 1: Talk to us a little more about how that works, 411 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,979 Speaker 1: because I think that is such a powerful argument that 412 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,020 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty easy that we can even explain 413 00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: to teenagers and some younger kids that there is a 414 00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:07,459 Speaker 1: good that God accomplishes through the evil and suffering that 415 00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:08,370 Speaker 1: we experience in life. 416 00:26:08,670 --> 00:26:11,710 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, I think we get a window into some 417 00:26:11,730 --> 00:26:16,570 Speaker 2: of that. This is sometimes called the soul-making theodicy, which 418 00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:19,690 Speaker 2: is a technical term. It goes back to St. Irenaeus. 419 00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:24,260 Speaker 2: But it's the idea that through struggles and difficulties, we 420 00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:28,500 Speaker 2: can develop character. We can develop virtue. So will we 421 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,980 Speaker 2: need courage if there was no difficulty or perils in life? No. 422 00:26:33,780 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: Could we have perseverance if everything came to us easily? 423 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: No. 424 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: Faith is tested by doubt and struggle and so on. 425 00:26:42,780 --> 00:26:48,270 Speaker 2: So it's the idea that these evils are instrumental to 426 00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:53,070 Speaker 2: greater goods. Now, not always. People can face dangers and 427 00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:58,650 Speaker 2: be cowardly. People can face challenges and give up. So 428 00:26:58,670 --> 00:27:03,350 Speaker 2: there's no automatic process here because we're moral agents and 429 00:27:03,390 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 2: we need to respond to our environment and respond to 430 00:27:05,859 --> 00:27:10,070 Speaker 2: the Lord. We're We're personal beings. We're not animals or 431 00:27:10,130 --> 00:27:13,930 Speaker 2: machines or something like that. But we are given this 432 00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:19,510 Speaker 2: great principle that while God is totally good, he will 433 00:27:20,490 --> 00:27:23,909 Speaker 2: use the evils of human beings to bring about a 434 00:27:24,850 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: greater good without sanctioning those evils. So Joseph didn't say, well, 435 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 2: my brothers were really pretty good people. You know, they 436 00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:36,460 Speaker 2: just kind of lost their way. No, what you meant 437 00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 2: for evil, God meant for good that many people would 438 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 2: be saved. So somehow in God's providence, he will take 439 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: even bad intentions and make them instruments of his glory 440 00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 2: in the end. And that's not a leap of faith 441 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: because we have so much in scripture where God does 442 00:27:55,109 --> 00:27:59,350 Speaker 2: that repeatedly in the life of Joseph. And then, of course, 443 00:27:59,390 --> 00:28:02,390 Speaker 2: the ultimate fulfillment of that is in the life of Christ, 444 00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:06,949 Speaker 2: the Perfectly sinless, righteous son of God is put to 445 00:28:06,970 --> 00:28:12,050 Speaker 2: death as a criminal. And through that atones for our 446 00:28:12,109 --> 00:28:15,530 Speaker 2: sin and is buried and rises again from the dead, 447 00:28:15,670 --> 00:28:18,290 Speaker 2: ascends to heaven. And he is at the right hand 448 00:28:18,330 --> 00:28:20,060 Speaker 2: of the father and he is our advocate and he 449 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:22,940 Speaker 2: will one day come and make all things right. So 450 00:28:22,980 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: the story is not over. We're only partway through the story. 451 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: If you had to just judge all of the world 452 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,260 Speaker 2: in terms of good and evil and stop it right now, 453 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,020 Speaker 2: We'd say, this is awfully mixed. We're not even sure 454 00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: what is going to happen. But if you have reason 455 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:43,460 Speaker 2: to believe that since all the other prophecies we have 456 00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:47,060 Speaker 2: in Scripture have come true, that the prophecy made by 457 00:28:47,140 --> 00:28:51,180 Speaker 2: Jesus himself that he will return and judge the world 458 00:28:52,380 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: and make all things right, we have reason to believe that. 459 00:28:56,300 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: It's not a blind faith at all. It doesn't have 460 00:28:58,700 --> 00:28:58,850 Speaker 2: to be. 461 00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:08,110 Speaker 1: Hey friends, it's Katherine here. If you're trying to be 462 00:29:08,150 --> 00:29:11,730 Speaker 1: a godly parent in this wild and wacky world, you 463 00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:14,430 Speaker 1: need all the help you can get. And I've got 464 00:29:14,470 --> 00:29:17,290 Speaker 1: you covered. When you subscribe to my website, you'll get 465 00:29:17,450 --> 00:29:21,709 Speaker 1: instant access to tons of free resources made just for 466 00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:24,930 Speaker 1: Christian parents. You'll get my prodigal bundle, which is packed 467 00:29:24,990 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: with every podcast, article, and scripture list I've created for 468 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,170 Speaker 1: parents walking away. that tough, prodigal road. You'll also get 469 00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:36,430 Speaker 1: my free e-book, Beyond the Lies, uncovering five myths the 470 00:29:36,490 --> 00:29:39,970 Speaker 1: culture spreads to mothers. Plus, powerful scripture lists to pray over. 471 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:43,010 Speaker 1: your kids and even scripture songs to help your family 472 00:29:43,090 --> 00:29:46,850 Speaker 1: hide God's word in your heart without even trying. And 473 00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:50,020 Speaker 1: of course, I'll keep you encouraged with my weekly newsletter, 474 00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:53,630 Speaker 1: full of faith-filled pep talks and outlines of what we're 475 00:29:53,670 --> 00:29:56,490 Speaker 1: tackling each week on the show. So don't miss out. 476 00:29:56,550 --> 00:30:02,230 Speaker 1: Head over to katherineseegers.com. That's katherineseegers.com. And subscribe today because 477 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,380 Speaker 1: Christian parenting may be crazy, but you don't have to 478 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: do it alone. Right. I know. And that's one of 479 00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:12,860 Speaker 1: the great criticisms they have of the Christian faith, that 480 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:16,230 Speaker 1: our faith is blind. it's kind of a blind hope 481 00:30:16,270 --> 00:30:18,890 Speaker 1: that this is going to work out, but it's not 482 00:30:18,930 --> 00:30:21,410 Speaker 1: based on that. It is based on a tremendous amount 483 00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:25,469 Speaker 1: of evidence, not only that God exists, but his faithfulness 484 00:30:25,530 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: in our life and our experience, our personal experience with him, 485 00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:30,380 Speaker 1: not to say that we don't go through hardships and trials, 486 00:30:30,980 --> 00:30:33,900 Speaker 1: but that is, that is a tough one though, especially 487 00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: when you're in the middle of it, or perhaps you 488 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,580 Speaker 1: don't see the fruition of the good that comes out 489 00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:38,830 Speaker 1: of it. 490 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,710 Speaker 2: There's one element I want to add to this. I 491 00:30:40,730 --> 00:30:43,310 Speaker 2: kind of hinted at it. And that is as a Christian, 492 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 2: you can lament with God. You can hurt with God, 493 00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:51,910 Speaker 2: so to speak. And we have about 60 Psalms of lament. 494 00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:55,390 Speaker 2: And some of them are pretty raw, where David says 495 00:30:55,470 --> 00:30:58,710 Speaker 2: things like, I think it's Psalm 6, how long, O Lord, 496 00:30:59,010 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: until you come and rescue us? And Psalm 88 is 497 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: a Psalm of a person who's chronically ill and is 498 00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:11,170 Speaker 2: really complaining, but his name is Heman the Ezraite. And 499 00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:13,540 Speaker 2: at the very end of Psalm 88, he says, Lord, 500 00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 2: darkness is my closest friend. Or some of the other translation, 501 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,820 Speaker 2: another translation will say, all my friends are in darkness. 502 00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: Either way, it's not happy, clappy stuff. You know, it's 503 00:31:23,580 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: like signing off, Lord, all my friends are dead. Bye. 504 00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:30,420 Speaker 2: I mean, how'd that get in the Bible? I'm glad 505 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 2: it's in the Bible because it's real. 506 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:33,380 Speaker 1: Yes, it is. 507 00:31:33,660 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 2: Hemanazer Heights suffered. But see, it's a prayer. 508 00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:37,620 Speaker 1: Right. 509 00:31:37,660 --> 00:31:41,740 Speaker 2: So lament is like hurting and even being angry. with 510 00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:46,020 Speaker 2: God before the face of God and crying out and 511 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:52,430 Speaker 2: trying to remember his promises. It's this skill of lamenting. 512 00:31:52,550 --> 00:31:55,790 Speaker 2: So lamenting doesn't mean that you pretend that things are 513 00:31:55,830 --> 00:32:00,090 Speaker 2: not really so bad, but you're remembering God's presence and 514 00:32:00,130 --> 00:32:04,690 Speaker 2: God's promises in the midst of it. And you bring 515 00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:10,820 Speaker 2: all of your emotions, whether it's disappointment, fear, confusion, even anger, 516 00:32:11,580 --> 00:32:14,780 Speaker 2: You bring that to the Lord. And through my struggles, 517 00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: I never really tried to run away from God. People 518 00:32:19,290 --> 00:32:22,010 Speaker 2: will say when they're angry, they've kind of given up 519 00:32:22,130 --> 00:32:24,890 Speaker 2: on God or I don't even want to think about 520 00:32:24,910 --> 00:32:28,729 Speaker 2: God anymore. I didn't have that option because I knew 521 00:32:28,790 --> 00:32:31,570 Speaker 2: too much. You know, I had lived too long and 522 00:32:31,630 --> 00:32:33,690 Speaker 2: I had looked at all the other religions, all the 523 00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:36,490 Speaker 2: other worldviews I'd written about, just about all of them. 524 00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:40,350 Speaker 2: So I don't have any other options, you know, like, oh, gee, 525 00:32:40,390 --> 00:32:43,090 Speaker 2: Buddhism seems really interesting to me now. No, I mean, 526 00:32:44,030 --> 00:32:45,090 Speaker 2: Christianity is true. 527 00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:45,870 Speaker 1: Right. 528 00:32:45,950 --> 00:32:48,950 Speaker 2: So I've got to live through this as a Christian. 529 00:32:50,090 --> 00:32:54,890 Speaker 2: And that means sometimes being very disappointed and being very 530 00:32:55,090 --> 00:32:58,610 Speaker 2: angry with God. But one thing I go to over 531 00:32:58,630 --> 00:33:02,230 Speaker 2: and over again, besides the Psalms of Lament, like Psalm 90, 532 00:33:02,210 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 2: Psalm 88, Psalm 39, it's Peter, when Jesus said, unless 533 00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:11,490 Speaker 2: you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you can't 534 00:33:11,510 --> 00:33:14,350 Speaker 2: be my disciple. And a lot of people were really 535 00:33:14,490 --> 00:33:16,850 Speaker 2: bothered by that. And they left. They don't want to 536 00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:20,830 Speaker 2: follow him anymore. And he didn't even explain what he meant. 537 00:33:20,850 --> 00:33:24,180 Speaker 2: He just said to Peter, Peter, will you also leave me? 538 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,220 Speaker 2: And Peter says, Lord, to whom else can we go? 539 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: You have the words of eternal life. I don't think 540 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: Peter quite understood. 541 00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: Not yet. 542 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,070 Speaker 2: What he said. Yeah. But he realized. He has to 543 00:33:36,090 --> 00:33:37,810 Speaker 2: stay with Jesus. There's nowhere else to go. 544 00:33:38,030 --> 00:33:42,910 Speaker 1: Exactly. That's so beautifully stated. It reminds me of the, 545 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:45,820 Speaker 1: it was one of the greatest trials. We've had a 546 00:33:45,860 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: few in our lives, but when we lost the little, 547 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: the little one that we really had felt the Lord 548 00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:53,460 Speaker 1: had promised to us, that was one of the first 549 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,180 Speaker 1: things I felt the Lord do was invite me into 550 00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: a lament with him. And we all have that invitation. 551 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: I think in, in suffering, when suffering happens or evil 552 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,290 Speaker 1: happens that, You know, and some people put a wall 553 00:34:07,410 --> 00:34:09,930 Speaker 1: up and say, no, no, God, I'm going to I'm 554 00:34:09,950 --> 00:34:12,430 Speaker 1: going to forget you. You weren't faithful in this. You 555 00:34:12,450 --> 00:34:14,750 Speaker 1: weren't there. You didn't answer the way I wanted you to, 556 00:34:16,090 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: because I thought this was the proper answer. And we 557 00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:23,100 Speaker 1: all have this invitation, though. And I felt that invitation 558 00:34:23,180 --> 00:34:25,660 Speaker 1: to weep with the Lord. And I was reminded of 559 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,500 Speaker 1: the story of Jesus with Lazarus was so interesting about 560 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: that story. It's fascinating because he's about to raise him 561 00:34:30,940 --> 00:34:34,150 Speaker 1: from the dead. Right. And he knows he's about to 562 00:34:34,190 --> 00:34:35,709 Speaker 1: raise him from the dead, but he takes the time. 563 00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:38,049 Speaker 1: This is the shortest verse in the Bible. Jesus wept. 564 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,020 Speaker 1: He arrives on the scene. Everyone is weeping. They're in 565 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,779 Speaker 1: this state of anguish. And some of them are like, 566 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,380 Speaker 1: you know, remorse. Why didn't you come sooner? And Jesus 567 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: takes this time to weep. It's such a curious passage, 568 00:34:51,420 --> 00:34:55,980 Speaker 1: isn't it? And he enters into the suffering of those 569 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,340 Speaker 1: around him. him, even knowing the redemption that is nigh, 570 00:35:01,660 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: that is about to come. So I felt that invitation 571 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,939 Speaker 1: of the Lord. And that's one that you write about 572 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,570 Speaker 1: so beautifully in your book, The Walking Through Twilight. So 573 00:35:13,790 --> 00:35:16,330 Speaker 1: I think that's so on point. It's something we need 574 00:35:16,350 --> 00:35:18,549 Speaker 1: to remember that anytime we go through suffering, that we 575 00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:20,989 Speaker 1: do have that invitation. God is there with us and 576 00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:23,390 Speaker 1: we can walk through it with him. And like Peter said, 577 00:35:23,410 --> 00:35:26,060 Speaker 1: where else are we going to go? Nothing else will 578 00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: satisfy in that. And nothing else is going to bring 579 00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: some form of redemption, obviously eternally, but often, and I 580 00:35:33,820 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: think almost always, he will bring some form of redemption, 581 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,980 Speaker 1: even in this life, through growth, through maturity, through any 582 00:35:41,020 --> 00:35:43,299 Speaker 1: number of things that could happen in this life. And 583 00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: ours ended up being the redemption of a fifth child 584 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,500 Speaker 1: that we named Evangeline Faith. And she's perfectly healthy. And 585 00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:52,660 Speaker 1: we were so blessed with that. I wanted to talk 586 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: to you a bit about, a couple of questions. I've 587 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,219 Speaker 1: had some questions from young people, you know, I homeschool 588 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,390 Speaker 1: and I teach in a Christian co-op and I've had 589 00:36:01,430 --> 00:36:04,370 Speaker 1: young people ask certain questions to me. One, well, this 590 00:36:04,430 --> 00:36:06,489 Speaker 1: one actually came from my daughter though. She wanted to 591 00:36:06,530 --> 00:36:09,690 Speaker 1: know why God couldn't create a world in which we 592 00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:13,390 Speaker 1: have free will, which is what kind of led to 593 00:36:13,489 --> 00:36:16,300 Speaker 1: evil coming into the world. Why couldn't he have created 594 00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: a paradigm where, where free will didn't lead to evil 595 00:36:19,980 --> 00:36:22,140 Speaker 1: and suffering? How would you answer that? 596 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,589 Speaker 2: Well, You have to consider the world as it is 597 00:36:26,930 --> 00:36:30,130 Speaker 2: and the world as it will become. Because I think 598 00:36:30,750 --> 00:36:32,910 Speaker 2: after the second coming in the new heavens and the 599 00:36:32,969 --> 00:36:36,610 Speaker 2: new earth, we won't sin. We'll be, to use an 600 00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:41,610 Speaker 2: older term, confirmed in righteousness. But we'll still be human 601 00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:44,790 Speaker 2: beings and we'll still have relationships. But sin will be 602 00:36:44,830 --> 00:36:46,730 Speaker 2: part of our past. It won't be part of our 603 00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:50,710 Speaker 2: present or part of our future. So on one level, 604 00:36:51,790 --> 00:36:57,260 Speaker 2: I think we have to say, we don't know. And 605 00:36:57,300 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: it's okay to say, we don't know. What I want 606 00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 2: to say is that God gets greater glory with us 607 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 2: being responsible moral agents who sin, and then he brings 608 00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:12,420 Speaker 2: about redemption, and then judgment, and then the final state 609 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 2: for the redeemed where we never sin. He gets greater 610 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 2: glory through that than he would have if sin had 611 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 2: never occurred. 612 00:37:21,219 --> 00:37:21,540 Speaker 1: At all. 613 00:37:21,780 --> 00:37:24,820 Speaker 2: And actually Romans 9 teaches something like that. It's a 614 00:37:24,860 --> 00:37:27,710 Speaker 2: tough passage, but when you read Romans 9, I think 615 00:37:27,730 --> 00:37:33,110 Speaker 2: you see that the righteousness of God is revealed through 616 00:37:33,150 --> 00:37:35,469 Speaker 2: the fact that we sin and he brought redemption and 617 00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:38,690 Speaker 2: that he will eventually bring judgment. So the fullness of 618 00:37:38,730 --> 00:37:45,630 Speaker 2: his character is revealed through that whole story of creation, fall, redemption, 619 00:37:45,690 --> 00:37:46,569 Speaker 2: and consummation. 620 00:37:47,590 --> 00:37:50,370 Speaker 1: My thoughts on that particular one. I don't know. Tell 621 00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:53,330 Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong here. Because one thing that you said, 622 00:37:53,790 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 1: for example, on page 630 was God's omnipotence does not 623 00:37:57,780 --> 00:38:01,730 Speaker 1: mean God can bring about contradictions. since a contradiction such 624 00:38:01,770 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: as a square circle is not a possible thing. And 625 00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: that reminded me of Chesterton, who talked about that a bit. 626 00:38:07,940 --> 00:38:11,660 Speaker 1: He said, you can free things from alien or accidental laws, 627 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,180 Speaker 1: but not from the laws of their own nature. You may, 628 00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,380 Speaker 1: if you like, free a tiger from his bars, but 629 00:38:17,460 --> 00:38:19,779 Speaker 1: do not free him from his stripes. Do not go 630 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,170 Speaker 1: about as a demagogue encouraging triangles to break out of 631 00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:26,980 Speaker 1: the prisons of their three sides. So my thoughts on 632 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: free will with that is that the very nature of 633 00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:33,860 Speaker 1: what free will is necessitates that an evil consequence or 634 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,580 Speaker 1: an evil choice can be made. And if you then 635 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: you're kind of you're freeing it from the definition of 636 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,340 Speaker 1: what it is to be free will. You have to 637 00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:47,210 Speaker 1: be free to choose to make a good choice or 638 00:38:47,250 --> 00:38:51,410 Speaker 1: a bad choice. Is that a good answer? for my daughter? 639 00:38:52,030 --> 00:38:54,730 Speaker 1: Or what do you think? I'm just curious. That's kind 640 00:38:54,750 --> 00:38:56,130 Speaker 1: of what I came up with. I don't know if 641 00:38:56,210 --> 00:38:56,669 Speaker 1: it was right. 642 00:38:57,390 --> 00:38:59,850 Speaker 2: Yeah. You see the same kind of argument in the 643 00:38:59,890 --> 00:39:04,049 Speaker 2: problem of pain with C.S. Lewis. It gets a little 644 00:39:04,090 --> 00:39:07,370 Speaker 2: complicated because it has to do with the nature of 645 00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:11,910 Speaker 2: what human responsibility is and whether it always requires the 646 00:39:11,950 --> 00:39:16,989 Speaker 2: power of contrary choice. And I think God set up 647 00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:21,870 Speaker 2: the world such that we would have the power, to sin, 648 00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:25,700 Speaker 2: but that it was not beyond his control. It wasn't 649 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,730 Speaker 2: beyond his sovereignty, but that eventually we realized won't have 650 00:39:30,810 --> 00:39:34,350 Speaker 2: the power to sin if we are redeemed in the 651 00:39:34,370 --> 00:39:37,950 Speaker 2: resurrection of the just. So I think you can have 652 00:39:38,340 --> 00:39:44,779 Speaker 2: a legitimate free will, moral responsibility without having necessarily the 653 00:39:44,820 --> 00:39:47,529 Speaker 2: power to sin, but that's going to be In the. 654 00:39:47,510 --> 00:39:49,890 Speaker 1: Future, that's going to. 655 00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:54,230 Speaker 2: Be when there's no more curse, no more tears. In 656 00:39:54,250 --> 00:39:57,259 Speaker 2: this world, we certainly abuse our power of choice all 657 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:57,609 Speaker 2: the time. 658 00:39:58,050 --> 00:40:01,859 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we certainly do. I have this one other 659 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: question I heard from a young person recently who was 660 00:40:04,260 --> 00:40:07,819 Speaker 1: struggling with their faith and raised in a Christian home 661 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,100 Speaker 1: and no longer believes. considers themselves to be a Christian. 662 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,350 Speaker 1: And I thought this was an interesting question. It doesn't 663 00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:18,490 Speaker 1: really negate the premise that evil existing in the world 664 00:40:18,670 --> 00:40:22,630 Speaker 1: is a barrier to the faith because, well, their concept 665 00:40:22,690 --> 00:40:25,580 Speaker 1: was that they would not acknowledge the existence of evil. 666 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: They rather said they believed that there were right and 667 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: wrong choices in life, but not necessarily good and evil choices. Nevertheless, 668 00:40:35,370 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: the consequences of wrong choices were a barrier for their 669 00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: faith and believing in God. So whether they called it 670 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,140 Speaker 1: wrong or whether they called it evil, it was still 671 00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: a barrier. So how do you kind of respond to 672 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: someone who would suggest that there isn't such a thing 673 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,350 Speaker 1: as evil in the world? might be wrong choice, but 674 00:40:58,390 --> 00:41:01,509 Speaker 1: not necessarily an evil choice. Because I think that the 675 00:41:01,550 --> 00:41:04,150 Speaker 1: real issue there is that they think that conceding that 676 00:41:04,170 --> 00:41:07,149 Speaker 1: there's evil is giving credence to the idea that there 677 00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:11,029 Speaker 1: is a spiritual world, which therefore gives credence to the 678 00:41:11,090 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 1: idea that there is a God, I suspect is the 679 00:41:13,950 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: line of thinking there. 680 00:41:14,890 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 2: Well, you really need, I think, the concept of an 681 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,779 Speaker 2: absolute good to generate the idea of evil. 682 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:20,820 Speaker 1: Right. 683 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,060 Speaker 2: Because when we use the word evil, we mean a 684 00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:25,550 Speaker 2: lot more than just a mistake. or some kind of 685 00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 2: a faux pas, or oops, oops, I accidentally tortured and 686 00:41:29,380 --> 00:41:30,260 Speaker 2: mutilated someone. 687 00:41:30,820 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: Right. 688 00:41:31,580 --> 00:41:34,060 Speaker 2: So the way I think to argue for the existence 689 00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,859 Speaker 2: of evil is to use what are called counterexamples. So 690 00:41:38,340 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 2: someone says there's no such thing as evil. I'd say, well, 691 00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:44,540 Speaker 2: what about someone who rapes and murders many people like 692 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,140 Speaker 2: Ted Bundy, the serial killer? Isn't that evil? What about 693 00:41:49,739 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 2: the Aztecs sacrificing hundreds of thousands of people in their 694 00:41:54,219 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 2: Isn't that evil? I mean, aren't there examples of evil, 695 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,219 Speaker 2: real evil, not just things that bother us, but things 696 00:42:02,260 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 2: that we say this should have never happened. And these 697 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 2: things are under the judgment of God. I think that's 698 00:42:07,620 --> 00:42:09,940 Speaker 2: the best way to talk about the reality of evil. 699 00:42:10,580 --> 00:42:14,660 Speaker 2: But we have to face evil in ourselves because the 700 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 2: prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 17, 9 said, the heart is 701 00:42:18,219 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 2: wicked and deceitful above all things who can understand it. 702 00:42:22,380 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 2: So there's this bent in human nature to rebel against 703 00:42:25,580 --> 00:42:29,879 Speaker 2: what is good, to rebel against God. So if God 704 00:42:29,940 --> 00:42:35,029 Speaker 2: is infinitely holy and perfect and good, and we rebel 705 00:42:35,090 --> 00:42:38,629 Speaker 2: against him, and we go the wrong way, it means 706 00:42:38,650 --> 00:42:42,650 Speaker 2: we're turning against the ultimate good in the universe. And 707 00:42:42,750 --> 00:42:47,049 Speaker 2: that's actually very bad. That's evil. So we have to 708 00:42:47,090 --> 00:42:49,950 Speaker 2: not just say, well, Hitler was evil, or Mao Zedong 709 00:42:49,989 --> 00:42:53,069 Speaker 2: was evil, or this child rapist is evil. Yes, but 710 00:42:53,570 --> 00:42:56,130 Speaker 2: there's still something very wrong within us. Even if we 711 00:42:56,170 --> 00:42:59,350 Speaker 2: don't act out and do something heinous like a murder 712 00:42:59,450 --> 00:43:02,859 Speaker 2: or rape, there's still something within us that is not 713 00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 2: right with God and which generates what Francis Schaeffer used 714 00:43:07,020 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 2: to call true moral guilt. And you can never accept 715 00:43:10,660 --> 00:43:14,100 Speaker 2: Christ as savior until you accept two things. You're a 716 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 2: sinner and there is a perfect and holy God that 717 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:22,790 Speaker 2: you've sinned against. That's when the whole meaning of salvation 718 00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:26,870 Speaker 2: starts to click. Before then, it doesn't really make a 719 00:43:26,910 --> 00:43:29,129 Speaker 2: lot of sense because if I'm not that bad off, 720 00:43:29,969 --> 00:43:32,270 Speaker 2: I just make a few mistakes, but I mean well, 721 00:43:33,270 --> 00:43:36,940 Speaker 2: and maybe God grades on the curve, then I'm okay. 722 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,879 Speaker 2: But if there's a holy, holy, holy Lord, the way 723 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:46,820 Speaker 2: Isaiah experienced God in Isaiah 6, and that means I'm unholy, unholy, unholy. 724 00:43:46,860 --> 00:43:50,390 Speaker 2: So there has to be a mediator now between God humans, 725 00:43:50,489 --> 00:43:53,969 Speaker 2: and that's exactly who Christ is. There is one God 726 00:43:54,030 --> 00:43:56,800 Speaker 2: and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, 727 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,720 Speaker 2: 1 Timothy 2.5. 728 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,219 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've talked a good bit about the goodness of God, 729 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,399 Speaker 1: and then, of course, the evil that can reside within 730 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,700 Speaker 1: the heart of man, but I love what you brought 731 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: out on page 640 of the book. You talked about 732 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 1: the misconception of God's goodness. You said, quote, We think 733 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,250 Speaker 1: of God's goodness as some sort of sentimental kindness, not 734 00:44:19,310 --> 00:44:25,030 Speaker 1: a blazing, holy desire that the beloved be radically transformed 735 00:44:25,350 --> 00:44:29,310 Speaker 1: to better represent its maker in and redeemer. And then 736 00:44:29,350 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: you went on to quote C.S. Lewis in The Problem 737 00:44:31,390 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: of Pain. I thought this was so wonderful. I love 738 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: this quote where he says, we want, in fact, not 739 00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: so much a father in heaven as a grandfather in heaven, 740 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,940 Speaker 1: a senile benevolence who, as they say, likes to see 741 00:44:43,980 --> 00:44:46,720 Speaker 1: young people enjoying themselves and whose plan for the universe 742 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,700 Speaker 1: was simply that it might be truly said at the 743 00:44:48,739 --> 00:44:51,609 Speaker 1: end of each day, a good time was had by all. 744 00:44:52,010 --> 00:44:54,069 Speaker 1: And then, of course, he says this famous quote, which 745 00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:58,569 Speaker 1: is so, so wonderful. He says, God whispers to us 746 00:44:58,690 --> 00:45:03,070 Speaker 1: in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in 747 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: our pain. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world. 748 00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: So talk about this misconception we have of God's goodness 749 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,540 Speaker 1: and how he uses that existence of pain, I guess, 750 00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: to get our attention so we recognize who he is. 751 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 2: Well, you know, as Lewis says, if we have this 752 00:45:32,180 --> 00:45:38,580 Speaker 2: very attenuated view of goodness, it means no trouble, getting 753 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 2: along with people, feeling good. You really miss out on 754 00:45:41,940 --> 00:45:47,620 Speaker 2: the idea of positive righteousness or holiness. And God calls 755 00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:51,230 Speaker 2: us to be holy. In fact, Jesus said, be perfect 756 00:45:51,290 --> 00:45:55,310 Speaker 2: as your heavenly father is perfect. Well, that's a tall order. 757 00:45:55,330 --> 00:45:58,569 Speaker 2: So what would it take for a human being to 758 00:45:58,610 --> 00:46:05,149 Speaker 2: become perfect? given the kind of setting we find ourselves in. Well, 759 00:46:05,170 --> 00:46:07,950 Speaker 2: it would require redemption. You know, it would require repentance 760 00:46:09,150 --> 00:46:11,670 Speaker 2: and the forgiveness of sins through Jesus. And then it 761 00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:16,810 Speaker 2: would be only consummated later. But one thing I love 762 00:46:16,850 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 2: about those sections in The Problem of Pain is that 763 00:46:19,660 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 2: Lewis says, this is the love of a very zealous 764 00:46:23,420 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 2: lover who wants nothing but the best for the beloved. 765 00:46:27,340 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 2: So somehow, I mean, to personalize it, God knew that 766 00:46:34,180 --> 00:46:37,649 Speaker 2: through the suffering of my wife getting dementia, that this 767 00:46:37,690 --> 00:46:42,650 Speaker 2: would somehow bring about something better in me and in 768 00:46:42,750 --> 00:46:45,569 Speaker 2: other people. And I can see some ways where that 769 00:46:45,610 --> 00:46:48,710 Speaker 2: has happened. I still have a long ways to go. 770 00:46:48,770 --> 00:46:52,250 Speaker 2: I got remarried four years ago and my wife's name 771 00:46:52,310 --> 00:46:55,109 Speaker 2: is Kathleen. And I thought, well, you know, all that 772 00:46:55,180 --> 00:46:57,900 Speaker 2: suffering I went through with Becky, I'm really a patient 773 00:46:57,940 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 2: guy now. Well, guess what? I still struggle with impatience. 774 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: Right. 775 00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:07,350 Speaker 2: So, you know, God is, even though Kathleen is a 776 00:47:08,590 --> 00:47:10,630 Speaker 2: healthy and a very different kind of person than Becky, 777 00:47:11,590 --> 00:47:14,970 Speaker 2: I still struggle with impatience. So if God is holy 778 00:47:14,989 --> 00:47:17,220 Speaker 2: and he wants us to be holy and we're not holy, 779 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 2: we're sinful, then that requires the cross of Christ. And 780 00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:27,739 Speaker 2: that requires ongoing struggles and difficulties, right? in the Christian life. 781 00:47:27,780 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 2: But if you want kind of a safe, simple, no 782 00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 2: problem kind of life, then don't follow Jesus Christ. I mean, 783 00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:38,950 Speaker 2: somewhere else, C.S. Lewis said, if I wanted a religion 784 00:47:39,450 --> 00:47:41,390 Speaker 2: that would just comfort me, I'd just have a glass 785 00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:45,089 Speaker 2: of wine instead. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 786 00:47:45,130 --> 00:47:48,009 Speaker 1: I mean, all but one of the disciples were martyred. So, 787 00:47:48,590 --> 00:47:51,850 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not, we don't have this example. I 788 00:47:51,870 --> 00:47:55,950 Speaker 1: guess we got this prosperity gospel story. permeating our culture 789 00:47:56,030 --> 00:47:59,670 Speaker 1: and the American dream is kind of corrupting the true 790 00:47:59,910 --> 00:48:02,250 Speaker 1: nature of the gospel and the message that we receive. 791 00:48:03,010 --> 00:48:05,930 Speaker 1: And what you said about the good that you have 792 00:48:05,989 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: seen coming from the suffering you experienced with your late wife, 793 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,470 Speaker 1: I certainly see good that came out of our loss of, 794 00:48:13,820 --> 00:48:17,629 Speaker 1: you know, our child in utero. But the same thing, 795 00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:19,529 Speaker 1: you know, and I see all of the faith that 796 00:48:19,570 --> 00:48:22,969 Speaker 1: the Lord built in our lives and the, how we 797 00:48:22,989 --> 00:48:25,930 Speaker 1: matured in him and matured in our relationship, my husband 798 00:48:25,950 --> 00:48:29,620 Speaker 1: and I, and then you think you've arrived or something 799 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,420 Speaker 1: in the new crisis comes. That same thing has happened 800 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,940 Speaker 1: with us. We've had a new crisis and, um, And 801 00:48:35,980 --> 00:48:38,420 Speaker 1: then sometimes I'm like, where did that faith go? We 802 00:48:38,500 --> 00:48:42,009 Speaker 1: had this mighty miracle. Thankfully, our holy book gives us 803 00:48:42,450 --> 00:48:47,790 Speaker 1: examples of that as well with Elijah, where he challenges 804 00:48:47,830 --> 00:48:51,210 Speaker 1: all the prophets of Baal. And then what happens right 805 00:48:51,250 --> 00:48:54,780 Speaker 1: after that? And he has this wonderful miracle where fire 806 00:48:54,860 --> 00:49:00,720 Speaker 1: comes down and consumes the bull that is offered. And 807 00:49:00,739 --> 00:49:02,750 Speaker 1: the next thing you know, he's on the run because 808 00:49:03,410 --> 00:49:06,210 Speaker 1: his life has been threatened. He's going to be killed 809 00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:10,590 Speaker 1: by Jezebel. And the next thing he knows, he's in 810 00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:12,710 Speaker 1: a cave. He's lamenting. 811 00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:14,770 Speaker 2: And he says, I'm ready to die. I'm done. My 812 00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:15,489 Speaker 2: ministry's over. 813 00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:17,649 Speaker 1: I'm done. I'm the only one. And God's like, you're 814 00:49:17,690 --> 00:49:19,970 Speaker 1: not the only one. I have all of these other prophets. 815 00:49:20,090 --> 00:49:22,390 Speaker 1: What are you doing? Why are you here? And we 816 00:49:22,489 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: all end up there, but the Lord is committed to 817 00:49:25,940 --> 00:49:32,000 Speaker 1: refining us through. And oftentimes he refines us through suffering. 818 00:49:32,540 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: And sometimes that suffering can be through something that is 819 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,490 Speaker 1: genuinely evil and That exists in the world. 820 00:49:38,530 --> 00:49:40,669 Speaker 2: Let me give you a statement, if I can kind 821 00:49:40,690 --> 00:49:43,230 Speaker 2: of interject here. Sure. That I've been wanting to say. 822 00:49:43,489 --> 00:49:48,460 Speaker 2: And that is that you can smelt meaning out of suffering. 823 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,900 Speaker 2: That is, you can kind of squeeze meaning out of 824 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 2: suffering without taking away the suffering. So it really has 825 00:49:55,940 --> 00:49:59,670 Speaker 2: to do with love. So when I would visit Rebecca 826 00:49:59,710 --> 00:50:01,569 Speaker 2: when she was in the hospital, when she was first 827 00:50:01,610 --> 00:50:06,410 Speaker 2: diagnosed with dementia, the last thing... in a way, the 828 00:50:06,450 --> 00:50:08,450 Speaker 2: last thing I want to do is visit my wife 829 00:50:08,510 --> 00:50:11,450 Speaker 2: in the hospital. And she was in the psychiatric unit 830 00:50:11,530 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 2: for several weeks. Nobody wants to be in the psychiatric 831 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,859 Speaker 2: unit and they lock the door when you leave. So 832 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,990 Speaker 2: she was there for five weeks and I would visit her. 833 00:50:24,010 --> 00:50:26,649 Speaker 2: It was way across town. It's like 30 miles away. 834 00:50:27,550 --> 00:50:30,029 Speaker 2: And so I would have to really prepare myself to 835 00:50:30,070 --> 00:50:33,430 Speaker 2: visit her because She was just a shadow of her 836 00:50:33,489 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 2: old self. She was confused. She was sad. She was 837 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 2: on medications and so on. And nobody there wants to 838 00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 2: be there. So I would just ask the Lord, help 839 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 2: me to bring some love into this situation. First, I'm 840 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,610 Speaker 2: going to try to minister to her, get her to 841 00:50:50,650 --> 00:50:53,950 Speaker 2: eat her dinner and so on. And then I want 842 00:50:53,969 --> 00:50:56,270 Speaker 2: to try to reach out to the people that are 843 00:50:56,370 --> 00:50:59,810 Speaker 2: around there. So my idea was try to find some 844 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:05,319 Speaker 2: Meaning through love in this terrible situation. It might just 845 00:51:05,380 --> 00:51:09,820 Speaker 2: mean listening to somebody. It might be praying for someone. 846 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,930 Speaker 2: It might be just putting your hand on someone's shoulder 847 00:51:13,969 --> 00:51:16,230 Speaker 2: and saying, I'll pray for you and so on. But 848 00:51:16,310 --> 00:51:19,890 Speaker 2: that didn't heal everybody. It didn't make everybody happy. I 849 00:51:20,890 --> 00:51:24,730 Speaker 2: still left my wife in the psychiatric unit. But there 850 00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:28,090 Speaker 2: was meaning in it. You could smelt meaning out of 851 00:51:28,150 --> 00:51:33,020 Speaker 2: suffering through love. Hmm. And that's what really got me 852 00:51:33,060 --> 00:51:36,610 Speaker 2: through it. I also think of Isaiah chapter 50, verse 4, 853 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,819 Speaker 2: which is a prophecy about the Messiah, which says, The 854 00:51:40,860 --> 00:51:44,080 Speaker 2: Lord has given me an instructed tongue that I might 855 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:48,490 Speaker 2: know the word that sustains the weary. An instructed tongue. 856 00:51:48,570 --> 00:51:51,810 Speaker 2: And often when you go through a lot of very sharp, 857 00:51:52,350 --> 00:51:59,050 Speaker 2: keen suffering, you get some empathy for people and sympathy. 858 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 2: I have a young friend of mine who I mentored 859 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,770 Speaker 2: and he was my assistant for several years. And he said, 860 00:52:06,469 --> 00:52:08,650 Speaker 2: I noticed something about you. Whenever you're in a room, 861 00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:11,130 Speaker 2: you always size up the room to see if somebody's suffering. 862 00:52:12,450 --> 00:52:15,410 Speaker 2: I didn't even know that about myself. He noticed it 863 00:52:15,469 --> 00:52:15,850 Speaker 2: about me. 864 00:52:15,930 --> 00:52:18,859 Speaker 1: Was that since your wife passed or do you always 865 00:52:18,900 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: been that way? 866 00:52:20,180 --> 00:52:24,100 Speaker 2: I think it came through her suffering and struggle. She 867 00:52:24,140 --> 00:52:27,570 Speaker 2: was alive at the time when he said this. And I. 868 00:52:29,650 --> 00:52:32,770 Speaker 2: I'm not perfect at this and I can be, you know, 869 00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 2: callous and a jerk. But I do know that I 870 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,020 Speaker 2: am pretty aware of people's struggles and suffering. And I 871 00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 2: try to do something. I try to offer some word, 872 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,969 Speaker 2: you know, an instructed tongue and certainly prayer for people 873 00:52:49,989 --> 00:52:51,170 Speaker 2: who are struggling and suffering. 874 00:52:52,170 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I know that God does use each of 875 00:52:56,180 --> 00:52:58,839 Speaker 1: our sufferings that we go through to help. He always 876 00:52:58,900 --> 00:53:01,700 Speaker 1: opens doors for us to minister to other people while 877 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,219 Speaker 1: we're going through it. And on the other side of it, 878 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,020 Speaker 1: to help people walk through those dark, dark moments themselves. 879 00:53:10,980 --> 00:53:15,670 Speaker 1: So I love the way you conclude the chapter. You 880 00:53:15,710 --> 00:53:18,850 Speaker 1: talk about, I think this is on, I'll have to 881 00:53:18,890 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: get the page number later. I think it's around page 644. 882 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,100 Speaker 1: But you said, quote, Jesus bore our sins and shared 883 00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:29,530 Speaker 1: our sorrows. While many evils in this world of pain 884 00:53:29,570 --> 00:53:33,690 Speaker 1: are opaque and unanswerable, the greatest evil of all time 885 00:53:34,290 --> 00:53:37,950 Speaker 1: has been explained to us. And I thought that was 886 00:53:37,969 --> 00:53:42,230 Speaker 1: such a beautiful quote. way to understand this because this 887 00:53:42,310 --> 00:53:45,750 Speaker 1: was the greatest evil and we do understand the meaning 888 00:53:46,310 --> 00:53:49,710 Speaker 1: behind it. The greatest evil of all time was perpetrated 889 00:53:49,790 --> 00:53:53,350 Speaker 1: on an innocent God. And it led to the greatest good, 890 00:53:53,410 --> 00:53:57,230 Speaker 1: a good that conquers evil. And truly we cannot understand 891 00:53:57,370 --> 00:54:02,530 Speaker 1: such good, such love without, without understanding what the evil 892 00:54:02,570 --> 00:54:05,259 Speaker 1: that was perpetrated upon him. And I love your conclusion here. 893 00:54:05,300 --> 00:54:09,370 Speaker 1: You said, quote, This is actually on 645. You said, 894 00:54:09,430 --> 00:54:13,610 Speaker 1: no other religion is based on the death, burial, and 895 00:54:13,820 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: resurrection of its divine founder. It is in this supernatural 896 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 1: reality that the problem of evil is best understood. If 897 00:54:22,780 --> 00:54:25,759 Speaker 1: the misunderstanding of his own people could not thwart him, 898 00:54:26,340 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: if the powers of darkness could not outsmart him or 899 00:54:29,580 --> 00:54:33,089 Speaker 1: seduce him, if death itself could not hold him, then 900 00:54:33,260 --> 00:54:38,060 Speaker 1: we have every reason to trust him. as the beginning 901 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 1: and the end. So then we have every reason to 902 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,719 Speaker 1: trust him with the suffering that he allows and the 903 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: evil that he allows around us, don't we? 904 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,290 Speaker 2: Right. And it's not just gritting your teeth and trying 905 00:54:51,330 --> 00:54:56,650 Speaker 2: to summon up courage. It's remembering the reality of Jesus Christ, 906 00:54:56,710 --> 00:55:00,450 Speaker 2: what he did, who he is, and that he will 907 00:55:00,510 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 2: come again. And one day the redeemed will live in 908 00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:08,830 Speaker 2: this world of what Revelation 21 and 22 speaks of 909 00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:11,390 Speaker 2: a new heavens in the new earth, which is at 910 00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:13,730 Speaker 2: the same time, a city, a garden and a temple. 911 00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:18,310 Speaker 2: And there's no tears, no curse. And we will be 912 00:55:18,350 --> 00:55:20,950 Speaker 2: with the Lord face to face. And that's really what 913 00:55:21,010 --> 00:55:25,509 Speaker 2: makes redemption, redemption. That's what makes heaven, heaven. A number 914 00:55:25,530 --> 00:55:28,290 Speaker 2: of years ago, I was interviewed about a book that 915 00:55:28,330 --> 00:55:31,090 Speaker 2: came out about heaven. I think it was called Lovely Bones. 916 00:55:32,450 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 2: And they wanted, to know what a Christian philosopher thought 917 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,820 Speaker 2: about heaven. And I said, well, I was talking to 918 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,410 Speaker 2: the reporter ahead of time. I said, I haven't read 919 00:55:41,450 --> 00:55:42,810 Speaker 2: this book. So you're going to have to tell me 920 00:55:42,830 --> 00:55:44,610 Speaker 2: the basic idea if I'm going to respond to it. 921 00:55:44,670 --> 00:55:47,370 Speaker 2: Is that okay? And I'm planning on not reading the book. 922 00:55:47,510 --> 00:55:51,050 Speaker 1: Yeah. Probably a good plan. Yeah. 923 00:55:51,090 --> 00:55:52,170 Speaker 2: She explained the book to me. 924 00:55:52,190 --> 00:55:52,990 Speaker 1: Right. 925 00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:54,870 Speaker 2: And I said, you know, what strikes me about this 926 00:55:54,930 --> 00:55:57,380 Speaker 2: book is that this idea of heaven has nothing to 927 00:55:57,410 --> 00:56:01,180 Speaker 2: do with God. God is nowhere in heaven. It's actually 928 00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,319 Speaker 2: similar to Islam. Also paradise for the Muslims is not, 929 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,560 Speaker 2: being close to or being face to face with Allah 930 00:56:07,580 --> 00:56:12,529 Speaker 2: because Allah is always utterly other, utterly transcendent. It's just, 931 00:56:12,610 --> 00:56:14,469 Speaker 2: you get things in paradise. You don't get to have 932 00:56:14,510 --> 00:56:17,330 Speaker 2: here like wine and, and all kinds of women and 933 00:56:17,390 --> 00:56:19,450 Speaker 2: so on if you're a man. But anyway, I said 934 00:56:19,469 --> 00:56:22,870 Speaker 2: the biblical view of heaven, what makes it heaven is 935 00:56:22,910 --> 00:56:25,710 Speaker 2: the presence of God, a God of love and truth 936 00:56:25,810 --> 00:56:28,239 Speaker 2: and wisdom and to be face to face and in 937 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 2: fellowship with God. That's what makes heaven heaven. It's not 938 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,600 Speaker 2: a bunch of nice stuff. The nice stuff is there 939 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,419 Speaker 2: because he's the giver of every good and perfect gift. So, 940 00:56:36,980 --> 00:56:39,400 Speaker 2: you know, it's a garden. It's a city. It's a temple. 941 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,009 Speaker 2: It's beautiful. There'll be other people there. It'll be in 942 00:56:43,030 --> 00:56:47,670 Speaker 2: your resurrected body that won't get dementia and cancer. And 943 00:56:47,690 --> 00:56:51,040 Speaker 2: you won't have to worry about losing children and things 944 00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:51,460 Speaker 2: like that. 945 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,710 Speaker 1: Yeah. That is so good. He is the light that 946 00:56:54,770 --> 00:56:57,200 Speaker 1: lights up heaven. He is the light itself. And so 947 00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,520 Speaker 1: being in his presence, and that is something that is 948 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,219 Speaker 1: unique to our faith, that that is what heaven is. 949 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,480 Speaker 1: And our culture, our world has a very, very, it's 950 00:57:06,540 --> 00:57:09,640 Speaker 1: a huge misunderstanding about what heaven is. It's not portrayed 951 00:57:09,660 --> 00:57:12,250 Speaker 1: that way, that being in heaven is being in the 952 00:57:12,290 --> 00:57:14,910 Speaker 1: presence of the one who created us and the one 953 00:57:14,930 --> 00:57:19,250 Speaker 1: who died for us. That is what it means to 954 00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:21,669 Speaker 1: be in heaven. And in addition to all of that, 955 00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:25,300 Speaker 1: we no longer have pain or suffering or tears. He 956 00:57:25,340 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: wipes all of that away and redeems everything. And we 957 00:57:27,780 --> 00:57:30,960 Speaker 1: get to live in his presence forever. So that is 958 00:57:30,980 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 1: what we get to look forward to with the Christian faith. 959 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,150 Speaker 1: Knowing that, like I said, you have this wonderful case 960 00:57:38,210 --> 00:57:40,470 Speaker 1: built in your book. I encourage my readers to grab 961 00:57:40,490 --> 00:57:43,060 Speaker 1: a copy of that and, and read through it. 962 00:57:43,070 --> 00:57:45,250 Speaker 2: Get a copy of the new one. Okay. Yes. 963 00:57:45,290 --> 00:57:46,570 Speaker 1: I want to get a copy of that. I want 964 00:57:46,590 --> 00:57:48,800 Speaker 1: to read through the new stuff that you've added in. 965 00:57:48,820 --> 00:57:52,370 Speaker 2: Can you see that? Okay. Yes. That's the second edition. 966 00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:52,970 Speaker 1: Right. 967 00:57:53,270 --> 00:57:56,970 Speaker 2: It's about 100 pages longer. Right. Has eight new chapters. 968 00:57:57,050 --> 00:58:00,450 Speaker 2: And I do have a chapter in here on lament, 969 00:58:01,830 --> 00:58:04,510 Speaker 2: which I put right after the chapter on the problem 970 00:58:04,530 --> 00:58:07,050 Speaker 2: of evil. So I have chapter 32, the last chapter. 971 00:58:07,070 --> 00:58:08,010 Speaker 1: Oh, wonderful. 972 00:58:08,030 --> 00:58:11,650 Speaker 2: Before the conclusion is called Lament as an Apologetic for Christianity. 973 00:58:12,490 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 2: So we talked about that quite a bit today, although 974 00:58:15,260 --> 00:58:16,520 Speaker 2: it was not in the first edition. 975 00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,120 Speaker 1: Right. I've got to get myself a copy of that. 976 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,580 Speaker 1: So Dr. Grotesque, I cannot thank you enough for generously 977 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:24,820 Speaker 1: sharing your time with us today. You have a lot 978 00:58:24,860 --> 00:58:27,500 Speaker 1: of demands, I know, and you get a lot of requests. 979 00:58:27,540 --> 00:58:29,280 Speaker 1: We are so grateful that you took this time to 980 00:58:29,300 --> 00:58:32,590 Speaker 1: help us reinforce our faith and the faith of our kids. 981 00:58:32,690 --> 00:58:35,130 Speaker 1: Please let our listeners know where they can learn more 982 00:58:35,170 --> 00:58:37,390 Speaker 1: about you, your writing, and your podcast. 983 00:58:38,690 --> 00:58:40,970 Speaker 2: Thank you. Actually, the biggest demand on me today was 984 00:58:41,010 --> 00:58:44,180 Speaker 2: making sure my dog, who's right next to me, doesn't 985 00:58:44,220 --> 00:58:46,580 Speaker 2: have a nervous breakdown about the thunder that's going on. 986 00:58:47,380 --> 00:58:50,140 Speaker 1: Oh, we had a huge thunderstorm here last night. I'm surprised. 987 00:58:50,180 --> 00:58:53,960 Speaker 2: My dog just is so afraid. I don't want to 988 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,580 Speaker 2: over-spiritualize things, but I really love dogs. And I think 989 00:58:57,620 --> 00:59:00,570 Speaker 2: about God all the time too. And I think sometimes 990 00:59:00,930 --> 00:59:05,270 Speaker 2: our relationship to dogs is something like God's relationship to us, 991 00:59:05,330 --> 00:59:07,550 Speaker 2: because you know, I'm saying, Sonny, you know, it's okay. 992 00:59:07,590 --> 00:59:10,220 Speaker 2: The thunder won't hurt you. I think so often we 993 00:59:10,300 --> 00:59:12,240 Speaker 2: fret over things and we worry over all these things 994 00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,400 Speaker 2: and God said, don't worry. I've got it under control, 995 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,260 Speaker 2: you know, but that's my next book. Maybe, you know, 996 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:20,740 Speaker 2: of God and dog or something like that. 997 00:59:20,780 --> 00:59:23,500 Speaker 1: We just got a puppy. My kids are so excited. We, 998 00:59:23,620 --> 00:59:26,080 Speaker 1: we got a puppy. Her name is Muffly and there, 999 00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,100 Speaker 1: she is a doll. She is such a little, she's 1000 00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,480 Speaker 1: a little much. She looks like a little, um, We 1001 00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:33,260 Speaker 1: think she's a border collie mix, but she's been a 1002 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,390 Speaker 1: real blessing in our home. I would look forward to 1003 00:59:36,430 --> 00:59:39,670 Speaker 1: reading that book. I think that would be great. 1004 00:59:39,710 --> 00:59:43,770 Speaker 2: I do reflect on our dog, Sonny, a bit in 1005 00:59:43,810 --> 00:59:46,780 Speaker 2: my book, Walking Through Twilight, because God really used Sonny 1006 00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 2: to bless Rebecca and myself through that journey, through his blessing. sensitivity, 1007 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,260 Speaker 2: how funny he was and so on. Yeah. So anyway, 1008 00:59:58,580 --> 01:00:00,830 Speaker 2: if you want to know more about me and my ministry, 1009 01:00:00,850 --> 01:00:05,670 Speaker 2: I have a webpage called douglasgrotheist.com. I have a podcast 1010 01:00:05,710 --> 01:00:09,250 Speaker 2: called Truth Tribe with Life Audio. I just recorded an 1011 01:00:09,310 --> 01:00:12,800 Speaker 2: episode before doing the interview here. I think we've got 1012 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,380 Speaker 2: about 25 episodes that are up there. And what I 1013 01:00:16,420 --> 01:00:20,860 Speaker 2: do is pretty straightforward. I usually just talk between 20 1014 01:00:20,860 --> 01:00:23,990 Speaker 2: and 25 minutes about a topic related to apologetics or 1015 01:00:24,610 --> 01:00:29,870 Speaker 2: culture or ethics. It's kind of low key, just me 1016 01:00:29,910 --> 01:00:32,890 Speaker 2: giving a short lecture. And you could find my books 1017 01:00:33,070 --> 01:00:36,670 Speaker 2: on Amazon. I've written, I guess, 17 books now. And 1018 01:00:36,730 --> 01:00:40,250 Speaker 2: also I'm available to give lectures and seminars to your 1019 01:00:40,330 --> 01:00:44,150 Speaker 2: church or organization. If you go to my webpage, there's 1020 01:00:44,170 --> 01:00:46,910 Speaker 2: a essay there about how to build up your church 1021 01:00:46,990 --> 01:00:48,590 Speaker 2: through my ministry. 1022 01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 1: That's awesome. I'm going to link all of that in 1023 01:00:51,420 --> 01:00:53,880 Speaker 1: the show notes. Thank you again for being here. Be 1024 01:00:53,940 --> 01:00:56,090 Speaker 1: sure to check out Truth Tribe, Mom and Dads. If 1025 01:00:56,110 --> 01:00:58,730 Speaker 1: you want to take a deep dive into defending the faith, 1026 01:00:58,770 --> 01:01:02,450 Speaker 1: get yourself some master's level instruction from one of the 1027 01:01:02,530 --> 01:01:05,270 Speaker 1: truly great apologists of our day for free. You can't 1028 01:01:05,290 --> 01:01:10,860 Speaker 1: beat that. That was an awesome conversation. I was so 1029 01:01:10,980 --> 01:01:15,020 Speaker 1: blessed by Dr. Groteis' mind, but I was even more 1030 01:01:15,100 --> 01:01:18,540 Speaker 1: blessed by his heart and his testimony today. And I 1031 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,980 Speaker 1: just have to add this. After we finished recording, Dr. 1032 01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:27,530 Speaker 1: Groteis took some time to minister to me personally. He 1033 01:01:27,630 --> 01:01:30,870 Speaker 1: prayed for a really hard place of suffering in my life. 1034 01:01:31,430 --> 01:01:34,650 Speaker 1: You guys, he truly does notice the suffering of others 1035 01:01:34,830 --> 01:01:38,210 Speaker 1: and I am so thankful for that. And did you 1036 01:01:38,310 --> 01:01:41,180 Speaker 1: catch the question that suffering and evil in this world 1037 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,580 Speaker 1: should ultimately bring us to as believers? It's the same 1038 01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:50,430 Speaker 1: question that Peter asked. That was my biggest takeaway from 1039 01:01:50,530 --> 01:01:55,550 Speaker 1: our conversation. Many of Jesus' disciples were confused and even 1040 01:01:55,590 --> 01:01:57,970 Speaker 1: offended by the things he was saying and doing. So 1041 01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,480 Speaker 1: they left. We too can find ourselves in that place 1042 01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,260 Speaker 1: when we encounter evil and suffering in this life. But 1043 01:02:07,340 --> 01:02:12,130 Speaker 1: Jesus asked Peter, Will you go away too? And Peter 1044 01:02:12,210 --> 01:02:15,550 Speaker 1: replied with a question of his own. He asked, Lord, 1045 01:02:17,170 --> 01:02:21,670 Speaker 1: To whom shall we go? You have the words of life. 1046 01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:26,050 Speaker 1: We believe and know that you are the Holy One 1047 01:02:26,820 --> 01:02:31,360 Speaker 1: of God. That is from John chapter 6 verses 68 1048 01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:36,600 Speaker 1: through 69. Moms and dads, there is no other place 1049 01:02:36,660 --> 01:02:40,439 Speaker 1: to go when we encounter evil. There is no other 1050 01:02:40,500 --> 01:02:45,880 Speaker 1: place to turn. and our suffering. The other world views, ideologies, 1051 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,980 Speaker 1: and religions may wrestle with these questions, but they cannot 1052 01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:56,110 Speaker 1: give us what Jesus gives us, which is the hope 1053 01:02:56,130 --> 01:03:00,850 Speaker 1: of redemption, both in this life and in the life 1054 01:03:01,350 --> 01:03:06,240 Speaker 1: to come. Jesus is the only one who has the 1055 01:03:06,620 --> 01:03:11,650 Speaker 1: words of life I hope you will please join me 1056 01:03:11,770 --> 01:03:14,950 Speaker 1: next week as we talk about such an important topic, 1057 01:03:15,310 --> 01:03:19,090 Speaker 1: men's mental health. The signs we need to be looking 1058 01:03:19,150 --> 01:03:22,300 Speaker 1: for in our sons and our brothers and our husbands 1059 01:03:22,340 --> 01:03:25,700 Speaker 1: and our friends that maybe something is not quite right 1060 01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,760 Speaker 1: in what we need to do in order to help. 1061 01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,800 Speaker 1: Let's raise awareness and do what we can to alleviate 1062 01:03:33,100 --> 01:03:38,000 Speaker 1: some suffering, friends. And as always, remember, God gave you 1063 01:03:38,100 --> 01:03:43,260 Speaker 1: your kids, your specific kids, for a reason. That's because 1064 01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:47,640 Speaker 1: you hold the key to unlocking who God created them 1065 01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:57,970 Speaker 1: to be. We'll see you next time. Christian Parent Crazy 1066 01:03:58,010 --> 01:04:00,920 Speaker 1: World is a production of Life Audio and Salem Media. 1067 01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,020 Speaker 1: For more faith-filled, inspirational podcasts, visit us at lifeaudio.com.