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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined today by my co host Ashishivarma and also Beth

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Speaker 1: Alison Barr, who has been on the show before and

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Speaker 1: has authored a number of different books, is pretty involved

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Speaker 1: in the conversations about womanhood and the SBC and various things,

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Speaker 1: and so we're going to be talking a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that today.

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Speaker 2: But welcome back to the show. Beth. It's great to

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Speaker 2: have you.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So maybe you know, as I've just we're just sort

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Speaker 1: of on the tails finicking out a series on biblical manhood,

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Speaker 1: but I'm kind of interested. You know, we're in this

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Speaker 1: moment where the SBC has done some interesting things, and

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Speaker 1: you've been talking a lot about that, So I'd just

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Speaker 1: be interested in getting your take as someone who sort

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Speaker 1: of follows that in more of an ancillary fashion.

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Speaker 2: I'm not in the SBC, so I have to.

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Speaker 1: You know, read the reports, but could you maybe give

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Speaker 1: us just a little bit of a rundown of what

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Speaker 1: happened there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So this has been a conversation that's been building

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Speaker 3: since twenty twenty two, and I think it's important to

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Speaker 3: note that this is across the same timeframe that the

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Speaker 3: SBC has been involved in the sex abust scandal, and

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Speaker 3: so this parallels what's going on with their vote against

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Speaker 3: women exactly parallels the increase of emphasis on the you know,

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Speaker 3: this this sex abuse scandal that has just erupted and

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Speaker 3: is you know, so huge. It's more, it's bigger than

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Speaker 3: what the SBC wants to meant to. So these conversations

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Speaker 3: go next, go side by side, and beginning in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two, there they started introducing the idea of a

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Speaker 3: new constitutional amendment for the SBC. And so the SBC

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Speaker 3: has two governing documents. It has the Baptist Faith and Message,

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Speaker 3: which they changed in nineteen ninety eight and the year

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Speaker 3: two thousand to say that only men can be pastors.

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Speaker 3: But they didn't differentiate what sort of pastor that would be.

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Speaker 3: And they also made it you know, because local autonomy

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Speaker 3: of churches is in Baptist DNA. So the idea that

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Speaker 3: you know, bat churches, this is what they sort of recommend.

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Speaker 3: And now what they are wanting is a constitutional amendment

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Speaker 3: that says that any church that is in friendly cooperation

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Speaker 3: with the SBC, which means you can't be a you

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Speaker 3: can't vote in the SBC unless you're in friendly cooperation.

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Speaker 3: You also can't participate in all of like their missionary organization,

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Speaker 3: and you can't get the benefits of being a part

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Speaker 3: of a very large, very wealthy denomination for lack of

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Speaker 3: a better word, although they don't like to be called denomination,

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Speaker 3: but that technically is what they are. So this and

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Speaker 3: so what they wanted was language that would say that

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Speaker 3: women can't be called pastors for their ministry in church

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Speaker 3: in any level, so not even children's pastors, not even

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Speaker 3: you know, even ones that are safely complementary in churches

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Speaker 3: that agree to mail headship, and that God ultimately has

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Speaker 3: put men in charge of women even if you agree

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Speaker 3: to that and you only have male senior pastors, but

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Speaker 3: you have female pastors working under them. The SBC is

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Speaker 3: now saying that's not good enough and that those churches

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Speaker 3: need to not be or it should not be considered.

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Speaker 3: In friendly cooperation with the SBC, and they have since

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two they were building momentum to try to

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Speaker 3: institute this constitutional amendment. It ultimately failed in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: they did not get enough votes to pass it a

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Speaker 3: second time. And then in twenty twenty five they started

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Speaker 3: talking about it again, and then this time Al Mohler,

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Speaker 3: who is not president of the Southern Baptist Convention, he

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Speaker 3: has never gained that although he's always desired it, but

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Speaker 3: he is president of the Flagships Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky,

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Speaker 3: and he himself introduced what he called the Truth and

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Speaker 3: Unity Amendment, where he said that Southern Baptists have always

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Speaker 3: agreed that women should not be pastors and that it

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Speaker 3: is time to get unity on this once and for all.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, he ended his introduction of this amendment

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Speaker 3: with you know, let's get this done. And this time

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Speaker 3: the amendment passed. Its skipped a bunch of rules that

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Speaker 3: most that would have said it would have had to

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Speaker 3: be reviewed this year and not be voted on until

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Speaker 3: next year, and they just voted directly on it and

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Speaker 3: it passed with an overwhelming majority. It's not in the

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Speaker 3: constitution yet. It still has to be voted on one

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Speaker 3: more time next year, so there's still a chance it

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Speaker 3: may not pass, but it passed with an overwhelming majority

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Speaker 3: this time. So that's it. You can ask questions if

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Speaker 3: you want clarification.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, what do you like, what was the

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Speaker 1: change from when it didn't pass last time to when

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Speaker 1: it passed this time with that overwhelming majority?

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Speaker 2: Like any idea?

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Speaker 4: What the well?

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Speaker 3: They have lost churches that support women in ministry. That's

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Speaker 3: one of the changes is that after they started introducing this,

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Speaker 3: churches they kicked out Rick Warren. You know, that's that

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Speaker 3: was part of this is Rick Warren's church, which is

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Speaker 3: one of the largest and wealthiest Southern Baptist churches that

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Speaker 3: supports women in ministry. They kicked out his church over this,

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Speaker 3: and so they have lost churches that would support women

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Speaker 3: in ministry. I also think that the there has been

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Speaker 3: a conservative revival again within the Southern Baptist Convention. And

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Speaker 3: so the moderate voices that we're saying, hey, look we

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Speaker 3: may not support we're all complementarians here, but we understand

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Speaker 3: local autonomy of churches and so churches have the right

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Speaker 3: to choose their own pastors, and so we're not going

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Speaker 3: to you know, kick them out over This is essentially

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Speaker 3: not a not a doctrinal issue for the SBC. And

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Speaker 3: those voices have been grow have been less easy to hear,

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Speaker 3: let's just put it that way. And these more conservative voices,

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Speaker 3: and and really I think al Molar. Al Molar is

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Speaker 3: such a powerful entity in the SBC that when he

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Speaker 3: stood up and said this is what we have to do,

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Speaker 3: this is what SBC believes. Also, Clint Presley there president

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Speaker 3: over at this time. He's different than Bart Barber who

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Speaker 3: was the president over those earlier years. And Bart Barber

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Speaker 3: was complementarian, but he did not think this amendment was

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Speaker 3: a good idea. And now we have Clint Presley who

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Speaker 3: thinks this amendment is a good idea. So the leadership

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Speaker 3: has changed in the SBC. That's more conservative.

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Speaker 2: Okay, interesting, yeah, and that helps, it does.

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Speaker 1: And I guess my sort of last question is you know,

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Speaker 1: I've seen some of the social media fodder on this,

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Speaker 1: which I don't know that I can trust.

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Speaker 3: But that's a good impulse not to trust social media.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: I see these you know, I see these things going on,

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Speaker 1: and you see people arguing, you know, women can teach,

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Speaker 1: women can't teach. You see, you know Almo are saying

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Speaker 1: that women shouldn't even have pod casts and shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: intervening scripture on podcasts. Yes, it feels like this could

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Speaker 1: go on a really a much darker direction than it's

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Speaker 1: already gone, and I'm wondering just sort of what your

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Speaker 1: perspective is on that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think that's exactly where this could go.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in some ways, what al Mohler is doing

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Speaker 3: is he's carrying complementary and theology to its logical conclusion,

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Speaker 3: and that if you argue that God created men in

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Speaker 3: a way that made them to have authority over women,

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Speaker 3: and that that authority is non negotiable, and that there's

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Speaker 3: nothing women can do to sort of overcome any of

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Speaker 3: what they consider to be these innate spiritual weaknesses, although

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Speaker 3: they wouldn't. They don't like it when I put it

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Speaker 3: that way, but that's essentially you know, they're arguing that

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Speaker 3: hierarchy is built into our bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 3: so when you carry complementarianism to its logical conclusion, it

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Speaker 3: is that men should have complete authority over women and

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Speaker 3: that you know, I mean, if you're going to take

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Speaker 3: First Timothy too at face value and not put it

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Speaker 3: in its historical context and say that it means women

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Speaker 3: should not teach or have authority over men whatsoever. Or

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Speaker 3: First Corinthia, you know, women be silent. If you take

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Speaker 3: those things, then yeah, you're like women shouldn't be on podcasts.

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Speaker 3: And so I mean, in some ways, at least he

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Speaker 3: is having a consistent hermeneutic and it but it does

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Speaker 3: lead to a very dark place. And you know, this

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Speaker 3: is what I've been arguing for several years now.

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Speaker 1: It's been strange to me, like to watch sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, when I see people quote the First Timothy passage,

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Speaker 1: it always stops before and they will be saved through

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Speaker 1: childbearing because nobody knows what this is, what the same

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Speaker 1: that and then even you know, appealing to the First

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Speaker 1: Corinthians passage on Corinthians eleven, like, I think the consistency

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Speaker 1: needs to suggest that hey, head covering, you know, it

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Speaker 1: needs to go more plumouth brethren than you know, where

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Speaker 1: the head covering. Paul's argument there from the creation story

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Speaker 1: is very strange. It is if you're going to take

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Speaker 1: it as Paul simply reading the creation story and not

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Speaker 1: doing anything else.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so.

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Speaker 1: I have trouble with the way they reconcile these passages

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Speaker 1: together just from a biblically an interpretive sort of standpoint,

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Speaker 1: aside from the unfortunate downstream effects that I think it has.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I agree with that Amy Heeler, who's written

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Speaker 3: a great book on gender and God, and she argues

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Speaker 3: that the First Corinthians eleven passage is perhaps the most

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Speaker 3: unclear passage in scripture, you know, across the board. You know,

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Speaker 3: I would say first the child bearing passage, she will

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Speaker 3: be saved through child bearing is probably a close second

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Speaker 3: on this, but nonetheless, you know, she argued, and so

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Speaker 3: what you have done is you've taken a passage that

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Speaker 3: is the most unclear in scripture simply because you know,

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Speaker 3: there's only so much you can do for understanding historical

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Speaker 3: context and understanding you know, what was exactly going on,

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Speaker 3: and so we just don't know exactly what Paul is

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Speaker 3: responding to there, although he seems to be responding to

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Speaker 3: things that are going on in the Roman world in

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Speaker 3: which he is offering a counter and and so you know,

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Speaker 3: this is also what Amy Keeler argues in What Is

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Speaker 3: Is It? Gender? And the Something in God? I can't

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Speaker 3: I'm not remembering titles today, but anyway, it's a very

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Speaker 3: good book. So that this when you take those those

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Speaker 3: types of versus just very superficially face value and pull

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Speaker 3: them out and then read all of the rest of

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Speaker 3: Scripture through them, then you can come up with this

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Speaker 3: very hard blind position that the Southern Baptist Convention has taken.

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Speaker 3: And I stand as a church historian here that what

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Speaker 3: the Southern the lines the Southern Baptist Convention is drawing

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Speaker 3: about women leadership in the church and even leadership in

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Speaker 3: the home, et cetera, is some of the harshest lines

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Speaker 3: in church history. You know, this isn't like, this isn't normative.

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Speaker 3: This is extremist. And you if you look across the

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Speaker 3: expanse of church history, which has not always treated women well,

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Speaker 3: and what the SBC doing is one of the most

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Speaker 3: extreme forms of instituting male headship and female subjugation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she shopping.

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Speaker 4: If you got anything, then, yeah, I have kind of

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Speaker 4: a macro question. Sure, there's a lot, there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of threads that I'm trying to make sense of and

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Speaker 4: maybe you can help us here. It's real least helped me,

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Speaker 4: hopefully help others as well. It'd be it'd be really

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Speaker 4: easy to say, well, you've got these churches, and I

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Speaker 4: think there's certainly a big element to this that's true, right,

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Speaker 4: that you've got these churches that have left or been

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Speaker 4: kicked out of the SBC, and that has skewed skewed

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Speaker 4: the overall temperature in the room right for the SBC. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but I also see people outside of the SBC the

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Speaker 4: same sort of skewing is going on where there's not

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Speaker 4: the same convention boundaries. Even to the degree that I've

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Speaker 4: watched a lot of issues being clumped together my own,

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Speaker 4: my own work in race and coloniality, you can probably

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Speaker 4: imagine the temperature rise, the personal head temperature rise that

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Speaker 4: that's caused for people. Yes, but I've watched people throw

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Speaker 4: that out with blanket statements and then just sort of

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Speaker 4: move as if it's part of one agenda to Oh,

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Speaker 4: by the way, we also have a women preaching women

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Speaker 4: pastor problem, women teaching problem that we've got to deal with. Yep,

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Speaker 4: and we've also got and then it seems like it's

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Speaker 4: tied together. So as of today, this is a failed attempt,

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Speaker 4: but at least the attempt to be very specific in

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Speaker 4: limiting citizenship on the national level.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Yes.

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Speaker 4: An added element for me and this is that some

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Speaker 4: of these people who I know who are part of

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Speaker 4: that skewed temperature rising in certain sectors didn't used to

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Speaker 4: be like this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: That's so I don't know if there is one simple answer,

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Speaker 4: but what are your thoughts on that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll throw another book for you. Author Ryan

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Speaker 3: ryan berg Is has done been doing work. You know,

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Speaker 3: you may have talked to him already on tracing the

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Speaker 3: polarization within churches and the inability to have to have

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Speaker 3: a a middle where people who disagree still can talk

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Speaker 3: to each other. And what we have been seeing is

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Speaker 3: that churches have been apart, have been complicit in this

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Speaker 3: rhetoric in demonizing people who disagree with them. And you know,

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Speaker 3: you can think about this that like even even thinking

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Speaker 3: about women, like you know, I don't know how many

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Speaker 3: times that people have attempted to disparage me as a mother,

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Speaker 3: disparage me as a Christian, dispair you know, saying that essentially,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm I'm outside the bounds of Christian orthodoxy

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, I'm a Baptist Sunday school teacher, you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's just it's just really fun.

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Speaker 3: You know, this idea that if you disagree, not only

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Speaker 3: are you disagreeing, but that person is evil. And we

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Speaker 3: just saw this at the recent tp USA event where

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Speaker 3: they you know, compared feminism to They said the reason

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Speaker 3: witches were burned was because essentially they were feminists who

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Speaker 3: were killing babies, and that the Church was on the

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Speaker 3: right side, which is you know, I saw one historian

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Speaker 3: who was like, anytime you find yourself agreeing with the witch,

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Speaker 3: with the people who are killing witches, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: like maybe you should stop, step back and be like

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Speaker 3: what am I doing? You know what am I doing here?

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Speaker 3: And I think it is this, this, this inability to

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Speaker 3: have discourse across the table, and where the SBC plays

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Speaker 3: in this, and this is something that I've been trying

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Speaker 3: to get across. Is the pivotal piece you know, the

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Speaker 3: SBC is the largest Protestant denomination in North America. At

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Speaker 3: its high point, it had more than sixteen million members,

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Speaker 3: four hundred and fifty thousand congregations spreading throughout the world.

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Speaker 3: And they also had their own you know, their own material,

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Speaker 3: their Sunday school material, their publishing industry, which really set

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Speaker 3: the tone for other publishing industries in Christian publishing in

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Speaker 3: the US. So even though like Crossways not technically as

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Speaker 3: not SBC, there's a lot of overlap that you see,

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Speaker 3: and the tone set by the SBC is one that

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Speaker 3: you see carried over into these other go Christian publishing houses.

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Speaker 3: And then you also think about, like, you know, the

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Speaker 3: evangelical the National Evangelical Association in the US has also

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Speaker 3: been struggling with this more concern element that is very

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Speaker 3: hardline that is influenced a lot of the players with

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Speaker 3: the SBC. They overlap. They also overlap with the religious right.

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Speaker 3: You know, you can think Jerry Folwell at the center

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Speaker 3: of this, and James Dobson and also Bill Gothard, you know,

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Speaker 3: who's been in the news again because of his poor health,

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Speaker 3: and all of these figures overlap and they have had

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Speaker 3: there the way that they have been training Christians to

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Speaker 3: respond to people who disagree with them is by viewing

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Speaker 3: them through this. If you are not for me, you

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Speaker 3: are against me, and you are my enemy. And I

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Speaker 3: think we are seeing the natural progression of that, you know,

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Speaker 3: and oppression. Oppression leads to oppression, so oppression of people

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Speaker 3: who are of a different color or who are of

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Speaker 3: a different you know, once you think that some people

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Speaker 3: were created better than other people, then it's real easy

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Speaker 3: just to keep applying that outward. And that's what has

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Speaker 3: led us to white supremacy. That was a macro answer

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Speaker 3: that I.

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Speaker 4: Can Yeah, that's that's what I wanted to hear, so

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Speaker 4: at least for me, it was a good answer. I'm

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Speaker 4: trying to still grab a hold of some of these

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Speaker 4: factors that get us to this moment of the seems

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Speaker 4: like an extreme right because we can certainly point to

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Speaker 4: the rise I'll leave it nameless, but the rise of

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Speaker 4: certain key influential figures. But how does that That seems

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Speaker 4: like that's already part of the water. If the rise

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Speaker 4: of key influential figures can cause this kind of extremism,

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Speaker 4: do you have any thoughts on that?

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Speaker 1: Maybe I can give a follow up to this because

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Speaker 1: this is like I've always sort of my wife and

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Speaker 1: I love like cult documentaries on Netflix, sort of a

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Speaker 1: guilty pleasure, And sometimes I'll watch these cult documentaries and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, who is following this guy?

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Speaker 2: Like, I don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: If I saw this guy on the street, he's not

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Speaker 1: a guy I would go, hey, he really seems like he's.

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Speaker 2: Got all the answers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it feels like, you know, just sort of

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Speaker 1: his answer or dosh, you's just question you Like, I

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Speaker 1: understand who the figures are, I don't understand how they

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Speaker 1: gain purchase.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah. So I mean I think what people

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Speaker 3: need to know is that this is not something that

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Speaker 3: came out of the blue. This is something that has

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Speaker 3: been building in twentieth century North American Christianity for a

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Speaker 3: really long time. I mean, some ways you can trace

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Speaker 3: it all the way back to the early part of

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Speaker 3: the twentieth century with the fundamentalist modernist controversy. But then

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Speaker 3: you can also you know, and that's where you start

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Speaker 3: seeing this. You know, you have to think, you know,

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Speaker 3: these battles over the Bible. There was a lot of

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Speaker 3: fear in the nineteenth century when science began producing things

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Speaker 3: like you know, finding like realizing that there are times

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Speaker 3: of the earth that it seemed to pre exist humanity.

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Speaker 3: And when people first started recognizing that and even finding

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Speaker 3: hominid skeleton, you know, and things, and it it caused

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Speaker 3: a lot of fear. And anyway that we could go

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Speaker 3: away into that, but it caused a lot of fear.

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Speaker 3: And so some of the response to that fear was

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Speaker 3: this like interpreting the Bible in a hyper literal way,

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Speaker 3: you know, that led you to rejecting science and saying

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Speaker 3: this is not Christian if you believe this or anything

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Speaker 3: like this, it is not Christian at all. This very

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Speaker 3: and that was an extreme view, you know. I always

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Speaker 3: tell people, you know, C. S. Lewis believed in evolution,

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Speaker 3: and that often rocks people's worlds. They're like, well, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, you never saw any sort of disconnect

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Speaker 3: between as Christian faith and science, never saw any disconnect,

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Speaker 3: and so people and so this is you know, that

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Speaker 3: was an extreme view, but it began to build. And

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Speaker 3: again I think a lot of this, you know, is

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Speaker 3: an education issue. This is what churches. It began to

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Speaker 3: be taught in seminaries, and it began to be taught

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Speaker 3: in churches, and you get decades of this teaching, and

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Speaker 3: then what you end up with are entire as a

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Speaker 3: new generation that has never been introduced to anything differently,

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Speaker 3: you know. So like women who are a little younger

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Speaker 3: than me, who are in their forties and thirties, there

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Speaker 3: are many of them who have never actually seen a

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Speaker 3: woman preach from a pulpit in their local congregations, whereas

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Speaker 3: women my age and older saw women preaching in the

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Speaker 3: pulpit in conservative evangelical churches, because that is more of

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Speaker 3: a normative. Then, But then when you get women now,

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Speaker 3: like all of these young women going to TPUSA events,

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Speaker 3: who have only been trained on this very literal reading

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Speaker 3: of the Bible being told that anything else is anti

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Speaker 3: Christian and is dangerous and they have never seen anything different,

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Speaker 3: And it's like, you know, and so I have a

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Speaker 3: lot of sympathy, you know, I think we a lot

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Speaker 3: of compassion because I don't think this is people who

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Speaker 3: are intentionally being cruel, which was that a lot of

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Speaker 3: this has, you know, has ended up in really cruel

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Speaker 3: actions that don't match with what Christianity is. But that's

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Speaker 3: all they've been trained on, and so how do we

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Speaker 3: help them realize that Christianity is a lot bigger and

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Speaker 3: deeper and different than what they've been exposed to without

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Speaker 3: them without their very fragile faith shattering. And that's a

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Speaker 3: hard you know, we think about the expangelical movement, that's

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Speaker 3: faith shattering because suddenly those tenants that they were taught

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Speaker 3: were the you know, when you're taught that evolution, when

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Speaker 3: you're taught that gender roles, that those are the things

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Speaker 3: that hold up your faith instead of actually Jesus and

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Speaker 3: those things fall you're faithfuls. And so we're seeing that's

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Speaker 3: a response, I think. So this is a problem that's

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Speaker 3: been building for a long time in the Southern Baptist world.

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Speaker 3: Since the nineteen seventies is when you started seeing that

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Speaker 3: attempt to take over. And it has taken this long

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Speaker 3: for al Muhler to be able to stand up. And

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Speaker 3: he knows he's not telling the truth, but I mean

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Speaker 3: because he lived through this, but he says that Southern

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Speaker 3: Baptists have always believed this about women, and his congregations

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Speaker 3: and the people are in the SBC now, so many

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Speaker 3: of them have never lived in a world where that

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Speaker 3: was different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so he can say that nobody's really going to

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Speaker 1: be It's almost like there's no eyewitnesses to call him

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Speaker 1: on it, right, he can he can just say that

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Speaker 1: and everybody goes, well, of course they.

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Speaker 3: Have because absolutely and there.

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Speaker 2: We've never known anything different.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're controlling the seminary curriculum, they're controlling the narratives

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Speaker 3: that are and then what these pastors are being taught.

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Speaker 3: And I mean, it's just it's just a snowball, is

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Speaker 3: what has been happening.

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Speaker 1: So do you see, like I mean, part of what

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Speaker 1: I see when we when we looked at the masculinity issue,

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Speaker 1: which I think the masculinity issue in very odd ways

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Speaker 1: sort of mirrors what's going on in the female side

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Speaker 1: of this, absolutely right, because as you get one wrong,

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Speaker 1: you're inevitably going to get the other wrong. It's like

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Speaker 1: hardly we both we get one right and not the

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Speaker 1: other one right. Yeah, And so part of what we

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Speaker 1: what I saw, at least when we were looking at

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Speaker 1: the masculinity conversation is this sort of strongmand we're going

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Speaker 1: to We're going to turn out a generation of weak,

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Speaker 1: limp wristed men who you know, have high voices and

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Speaker 1: can't grow beards and you know, couldn't fight in the military.

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Speaker 1: It's like you have these sort of pictures of these

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Speaker 1: people and they're they're framed in this way that is so.

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Speaker 2: Disingenuous and demeaning.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that if you're not careful, you should sit back

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Speaker 1: and go, well, of course, I don't want to be

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Speaker 1: like that guy. And on the other side, you sort

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Speaker 1: of play on this. I mean, it's Jesus and John

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Speaker 1: Wayne right, absolutely right. You look back to Rambo or

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Speaker 1: Schwarzenegger or whoever, and you're like, that's the guy I

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Speaker 1: want to be. But I think on reflection, like the

435
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: reality is, no one's that guy. And so, you know,

436
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: the the reaction is in some ways, you know, if

437
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: you feel like you're losing your manhood, the reaction is

438
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: in some ways intelligible, right, that you would have some

439
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: sort of a reaction and make a response to that.

440
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: I think the problem is that the response is something

441
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: the lie manisphere and not discipleship.

442
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: Yes, that's where I sort of lose it.

443
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 5: I'm like, why are we not recalibrating to discipleship, Why

444
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 5: are we recalibrating to any sort of gender cultural understanding

445
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 5: of what you know, machismo is.

446
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I mean I you know, I

447
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 3: have a son. I have a he turned twenty three

448
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 3: this year, and I I'm grateful that he has a

449
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 3: He has a really good head and also has grown

450
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 3: up with me and my husband, which is I think,

451
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: you know, has helped him maybe with some of this

452
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: stuff out there. But you know, it's this, these gender

453
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: constructs are damaging to our young men. And you know,

454
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: I think about when they are told. You think about

455
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: Mark Triscoll, I mean we started. We think about the

456
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: things that he used to yell at these men, you

457
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: know where he said, if you aren't making enough money

458
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: where your wife doesn't have to work, you aren't a man.

459
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: And I'm like, what is that? You know, we have

460
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: never this concept that one partner in the home doesn't

461
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: have to work for the economy of the home. That is,

462
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: that is a nineteenth century invention. It never existed, and

463
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: it mostly doesn't exist throughout the rest of the world.

464
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 3: And yet we are burdening these young men with this

465
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: idea that they have to walk into jobs that carry

466
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: you know, actually more than six figure salaries now that

467
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 3: can provide you know, their wives to not have to work,

468
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 3: yet provide all the you know, all of the medical

469
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: for you know, they're supposed to have tons of kids

470
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: and they have to provide for all of that and

471
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 3: take and it's like, no wonder, they're all so stressed out.

472
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 3: And not only that, but then they also have to

473
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 3: look a certain way, and you know the pressure on

474
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 3: them to take steroids, to take things that to build

475
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 3: up you know, the the image, the physical image for

476
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: men is just as dangerous as the one for women.

477
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: And Christians are doing this to our kids. Yeah, yeah,

478
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: it's so sad.

479
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: It was interesting. I mean my wife and I so

480
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: she was a pharmacist by training. Yeah, I remember, Yeah,

481
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: she was always going to outpace my salary like there

482
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: was no no shot. But I remember in seminary one

483
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: of my professors saying in class trying to be pastorals

484
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: sort of saying, you know, your wives should.

485
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: Never make more money than you do.

486
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: It creates a power differential in the home and for

487
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: It's just so it struck me so funny even then.

488
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, you're telling me I'm going to

489
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: make nothing, and so my wife could work part time

490
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: a part time and still outpace my salary, right, you know,

491
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: so you're telling me that on one and then then

492
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: you're citing power differentials, which we're kind of supposed to

493
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: be against, right, Like, like, why is this the one

494
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: place power differentials can be activated in a in a

495
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: positive space?

496
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: Very strange.

497
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it you know it also, it's like if

498
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: we are you know, the idea when you get married

499
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 3: is that you are you become one together, which means

500
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: you are this equal partnership. That's what we see in

501
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: the garden in the beginning. Then the money you earn

502
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: is for your family, whoever earns it it go. I mean,

503
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 3: I don't know. This is just such a weird thing,

504
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: and I mean some of it comes from we think

505
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: about Bill Gothard. I mean, this is what he taught.

506
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: He taught that if women are able to make their

507
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: own money, they will use it on things that aren't

508
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 3: good for the household, like they'll use it on pretty

509
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: clothes for themselves. I mean he actually said that. I mean,

510
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 3: it's this terrible demeaning thing. But when we look statistically,

511
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: when women women actually tend to spend their money on

512
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: the good of the household and the good of the family,

513
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 3: and the good of childcare and you know, and education,

514
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: and it's just yeah.

515
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: So it's it's been I would say, my wife and

516
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: I have gone through the I don't think we've like

517
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: suffered or you know, it's not been anything big, but

518
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: we definitely had friction as we've gone through. Because there

519
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: was a time when I stayed home with my son

520
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: when he was first born and my wife went to work,

521
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: and people just thought that was crazy and the nicest

522
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: words we heard for it were crazy. Yeah, you know,

523
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: you know, And so we've had that sort of our

524
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: whole marriage. And I think it does create this sort

525
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: of setup expectations where it oddly reinforces a paradigm that

526
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: isn't true but that you're seeing play out now and

527
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: some of these complementarian sort of conversations and certainly what

528
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 1: the SBC is doing, it's become a norm. Yes, and

529
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: now where it used to be that you could be

530
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: a deviant and sort of break the norm without severe repercussions,

531
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: what it seems like is happening is there's going to

532
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: be now disciplinary measures that you're breaking the norm, you're

533
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: going to have harsher consequences for doing so.

534
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh absolutely know. One of the funny I mean,

535
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: it's not funny, but it sort of is funny is

536
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 3: seeing people like, for example, the Council for Biblical Manhood

537
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: and Womanhood, who claims to be this really moderate complementarian

538
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: space where they believe in the equality of men and women,

539
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: but we just have different roles, and they have been

540
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: trying to push they have been trying to separate themselves

541
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: from what they call biblical patriarchy, which is Doug Wilson

542
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: and you know, sort of that more extreme version. And

543
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: it's been interest because you know, they're saying, no, no,

544
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: that's not what we believe. We believe that women and

545
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: men are fundamentally equal. Of course women should have the

546
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: right to vote. You know, we would never argue for that,

547
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 3: and it's a little you know, I look at that

548
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: and I'm like, but this is where your theology leads,

549
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 3: you know, this is the whole thing is that if

550
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: you argue this, you are arguing that women aren't equal

551
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 3: to men. And this is where it goes, is to

552
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 3: biblical patriarchy and Doug will sin. So at least it

553
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: is somewhat encouraging to me maybe that we see some

554
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: of these what I would have considered to be more

555
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 3: hardline complementarians now seeing themselves as more moderate and being like, well,

556
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 3: well we don't want to go that far. I'm like,

557
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 3: well that's positive, you know.

558
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm seeing I'm seeing a parallel in some ways.

559
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 4: So you know, when we talk about racial conversations, Yes,

560
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 4: what starts to emerge is sort of this false fabric

561
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 4: of self sufficiency. Yes, and I call it false because

562
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: the negative image is always required, right, the idea of

563
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 4: maturity always requires that image of what's not mature, so

564
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 4: you can always point out to it absolutely, even as

565
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 4: there's this carrot dangle to be like this and all

566
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 4: of your dreams will come true. Well that, you know,

567
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 4: that bleeds into another conversation on ecology, where that sort

568
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 4: of notion of dangling the care and uh and a

569
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 4: self sufficiency actualized for all doesn't actually work. It's destructive

570
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 4: to the earth. But the parallel to me is that

571
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 4: as I'm listening, that seems to be very much what's

572
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: that in play here?

573
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: Right?

574
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 4: On one side, we want to have our cake and

575
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 4: eat it too, right, We want to be able to

576
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 4: say in this conversation, well, of course women are equal

577
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 4: to men, you know, God made them equal. But when

578
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 4: in every moment, for every single mention of this dialectic,

579
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 4: the male is on top and the female is below,

580
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 4: and for every moment the idea for masculine self actualizing

581
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 4: is self sufficiency. Yes, so that the dirty secret in

582
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 4: the room is well that self sufficiently. Self sufficiency, by

583
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 4: the way, doesn't work when we want another generation, right,

584
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 4: so we got to keep women around. It seems like

585
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 4: the same dialectic as in play, where this self sufficiency

586
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 4: is masquerading over that negative image that has to be

587
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 4: kept there in some kind of subjugation. And no matter

588
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 4: how many times one can say, well, no ontologically equal,

589
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 4: if if functionally every single instance is is dis equilibriumized

590
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: to write our fecond coin a word, then what we're

591
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 4: talking about there is an ontological disequilibrium.

592
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, no, that's one hundred percent. And you know,

593
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: and that's also the thing with I think with racism

594
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: in the US, and we are really seeing the ugly

595
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: head of white supremacy from people who claim, who have

596
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: been claiming for years in the church that of course

597
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: I'm not a racist. And you know, I have people

598
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 3: friends who are not the same color as me. That

599
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 3: makes me not a racist. You know, we invite them

600
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: into our church as long as they agree with us

601
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: and do it our way, and then we that means

602
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: we're not racist, you know, But when you actually come

603
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: down to it, what you find, you know, it's like,

604
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: it's why it's okay for women as missionaries to teach

605
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: people who are not who are not white, but when

606
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 3: they come home, they can't teach white people. And it's like,

607
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 3: that is an ontological frame. You are saying that people

608
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 3: whose skin is different from you, that there is something

609
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 3: less about them, which is why lesser gender can teach

610
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 3: them and these and then what happened, what we're seeing

611
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 3: happening in the in the US, in our churches right now,

612
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 3: is that this this this inequity that has been behind

613
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 3: the scenes is now coming out on full display. And unfortunately,

614
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: people who have been in the water learning this inequity

615
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 3: for so long can't see it now that it's coming

616
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 3: to the surface because it's the what they've been living

617
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: in and they don't see the discrepancy.

618
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 4: So it seems to some to three the diminished middle

619
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 4: could be seen as a culprit here, But I yeah,

620
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if I'm not sure what to think

621
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 4: about that. I'm thinking about a piece that you wrote

622
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 4: in your sub stack, I won't mention a book or

623
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 4: author names unless you want to mention them. But there

624
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 4: was a piece you wrote earlier this year which, okay, well,

625
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 4: someone seemed to want to take that middle ground and say,

626
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 4: you know, I'm just looking at the basic biblical facts,

627
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 4: and the basic biblical facts don't lend overwhelmingly towards the

628
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 4: complementary and sort of positions, despite what complementarians want to say, right,

629
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 4: And your reaction to that was that I get the

630
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 4: substance of what you're saying, and I can appreciate on

631
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 4: a certain level as someone who can draw people back

632
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 4: towards a conversation. But your problem was that this person

633
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 4: needs to actually take another step and call out injustices.

634
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 4: And I'm with you, by the way, in that voice,

635
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 4: but I wonder, I wonder in that if that kind

636
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 4: of posture that I share with you means that it

637
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 4: prevents there from being sort of a middle ground. So

638
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 4: now when you end up with a tug of war

639
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 4: or a polarity battle.

640
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 3: So you know that was what that actually. I think

641
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 3: the fact that people interpret calling out a problem as

642
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 3: being antagonistic is the loss of that middle ground. Middle

643
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: ground is actually the ability to disagree with people and

644
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: still be in conversation with each other. And so you know,

645
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 3: where we can it's almost, you know, sort of like

646
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 3: the way academia is supposed to be, where we're all

647
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: scholars here, but you can peer review my thing and

648
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 3: say this is you know, these are all the mistakes

649
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 3: that are with it, and I argue back and be like, no,

650
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 3: I think I'm you're right here, but I don't see

651
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: you know, and that, and then you're you're all you're

652
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 3: sitting and eating lunch at the next conference together, because

653
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 3: this is just what we do. And that's a ground

654
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 3: is being able to sit next to people and be like, hey,

655
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: I think you're wrong, but I'm still going to sit

656
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: next to you and we can talk about it and see.

657
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 3: And so what I actually was attempting to do was well,

658
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 3: first of all, so what I was attempting to do,

659
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: and this is something that I've actually seen evidence behind

660
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: the scenes, because I've gotten emails from women who were

661
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 3: so put off by his attitude where he said, you know,

662
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 3: this isn't going to affect me at all because I'm

663
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: still going to have all the friends I have and

664
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: I mean, he explained that, but the way it comes

665
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 3: off is really like, this is just an intellectual issue.

666
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: It doesn't really hurt anyone. And when women were like,

667
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, and you know, and so I've had women.

668
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 3: In fact, one just wrote me a couple of days

669
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: ago and was like, I picked up his book because

670
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: of what you said, and you know, was you know,

671
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 3: and so I'm really glad and I think this will

672
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 3: be a helpful book to give to, you know, especially

673
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 3: the men and my family to make help. But it's

674
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 3: this idea of like, how do we bring people together

675
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 3: and say we can disagree on this and still and

676
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 3: that you know, disagreement is the tension that we can

677
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 3: live with and so that you know, and but we

678
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: we don't see it that way anymore. In fact, when

679
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 3: I posted that review, the first thing that happened was

680
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 3: somebody sent me a I'm not i haven't been on

681
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: Twitter for years, but somebody has sent me a tweet

682
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 3: from Colin Smothers, who I think is still the president

683
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 3: of the CBMW, the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,

684
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 3: and he was like, not good enough, Beth Allison Barr,

685
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 3: you know, let the fight begin and I was like,

686
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: you didn't even read it. You know, I'm actually not

687
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: trying to fight. I'm like, this is good, let's keep

688
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 3: this conversation going. But it's this idea that if you

689
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: are against me in any way, you are my enemy

690
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 3: and we can't you know, we can't cooperate together.

691
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the lack of capacity to disagree. I really, Yeah,

692
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 4: I think you're right, and I think that hits it

693
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 4: right on the head, that, yeah, there is legitimate debate

694
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 4: right on some of the passages, even that you and

695
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,959
Speaker 4: James brought up. Yeah, we're not sure what's going on here,

696
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 4: but let's not pretend that whatever is going on in

697
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 4: these passages is therefore the entirety of the conversation. And

698
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: maybe even more importantly, let's not for change or exclude

699
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 4: against the possibility of disagreement and real conversation.

700
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

701
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 4: So I appreciate the way.

702
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: That you put that.

703
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 4: That's that's the true middle, not some desire to please

704
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 4: both sides.

705
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And so I don't

706
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 3: I mean, that was a that may be my most

707
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 3: read sub stack this year or and it's been. Really

708
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: the responses have been very interesting. But I'm I think

709
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 3: I started a good conversation. I think maybe the author

710
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 3: is not happy with me.

711
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sure, you know, but it's hard.

712
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 3: I've been there where you have a best selling book

713
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: and everybody's coming at you. You know. I'm like, you know,

714
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: it's hard. It's a hard space.

715
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: So it's okay, let me ask a question because I

716
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: think it's interesting. You know, when we've talked about this

717
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: whole conversation, we have talked about, to a large degree,

718
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: institutions and they're spokespeople.

719
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

720
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: Right.

721
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 1: We've talked about the SBC and now Moller. We've talked about,

722
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: you know, the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and

723
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: their leadership. We've talked about you know, more popular evangelical

724
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: voices who had big platforms back in the day. James

725
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: Dobson had the radio program like he was the face

726
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: of something he felt like an institution. Yes, part of

727
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: my concern and this is just sort of my systems

728
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: thinking background, I think coming out, it's like, I'm concerned

729
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: that the middle ground doesn't have sufficient coordination, yes, right,

730
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: to like come together and go no, we're not going

731
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: to do this whole polarization thing. We're actually going to

732
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: emphasize conversation. We're actually going to we don't have to

733
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: agree on everything, but we are not going to tolerate

734
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: closure of these conversations, right, you know, inappropriate closure of

735
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: these conversations, immature closure of these we're not going to

736
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: tolerate it. And there isn't an institution it feels like

737
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: that does that anymore. I know universities, some better ones

738
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: do do that, right, but they're also fairly cloistered as

739
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: they do it. They're not out there sort of promoting

740
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,959
Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Do you also see that as

741
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: an issue here? And if so, if you thought through

742
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: any ways, we could potentially solve it.

743
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: Just to sort of close out my thought.

744
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: Like you know, I mentioned before you we started recording,

745
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, you've been on a lot of podcasts, Like

746
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: we do podcasts twice a week. There's all these other

747
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 1: people who do podcasts similar to this all over the place,

748
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: but they're very like laser focused, targeted.

749
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: There's not like a network.

750
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: Of people who are sort of bound together and we're

751
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: all sort of doing our thing dependently, and so that's

752
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: not a bad thing, but it's also not the same

753
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: thing as what the SBC.

754
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: Can pull off.

755
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: It's not the same thing as what these other like

756
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: coordinated entities can actually pull off.

757
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. You know, if

758
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 3: you think about, like where how did the SBC connect

759
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 3: with some of these other more conservative voices. I mean, honestly,

760
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 3: let's let's think about desiring God. Let's think about John

761
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 3: Piper's website and all of the different voices that contribute

762
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 3: to us. Think about the Gospel Coalition, you know, which

763
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 3: which controls who gets to contribute. And I mean I remember,

764
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 3: you know, they're one of their book editors got fired

765
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 3: over putting out a positive review of The Making a

766
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 3: Biblical Woman, And I mean I felt terrible of that.

767
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 3: It was I didn't know it until after the fact,

768
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 3: and you know, I was just like, why in the

769
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 3: world can you not have dialogue over this? You all

770
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: have to anyway, And so I think you are absolutely right.

771
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 3: There is I think part of it is is that

772
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 3: the middle we don't have the funding resources behind us,

773
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: like you know, if you think about and so trying

774
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 3: to pull these together in a coordinated way. I think

775
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 3: also there is a problem the I hate to use

776
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: the words left or I think we just but there

777
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: are people on the other end of the spectrum who

778
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 3: are in some ways perpetuate some of the things that

779
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 3: the more conservative and do, like if you even like,

780
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 3: I had some people on the far progressive side who

781
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 3: when I even when I even talked with that book

782
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 3: we were just talking about and I mean it's Preston Sprinkle,

783
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 3: which I recommend he does a lot of great things.

784
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: He does anyway, I don't always agree with him, but anyway,

785
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: so because I even talked about his book, there were

786
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 3: people on the progressive side who were like not even willing,

787
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 3: who were so angry at me, And I'm like, we've

788
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 3: got to be able to talk to each other, and

789
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 3: we've got to be able to engage with ideas. But

790
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 3: there is not a coordinated there's not coordinated funding. There's

791
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 3: not a coordinator. I don't. I don't know how, I don't.

792
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 3: There's not a network, there is not a desiring God,

793
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 3: there is not a gospel coalition.

794
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, for that middle it feels like, I mean, evangelical

795
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: theological society is such a huge mix and tends to

796
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: skew a little more conservative. You know, even some of

797
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: those scholarly sort of places you go, they just don't

798
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: really have the oomph behind them. And so the big,

799
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: the big influential organizations you can think of, are going

800
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: to re emphasize these same kind of points that we've

801
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: been talking about this entire time. They're going to say,

802
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 1: you know, more complementarian. They're going to skew more toward

803
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 1: you know, no women in leadership. They're going to skew

804
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: more toward, you know, to Ashisha's point, they're going to

805
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 1: they're going to screw more toward a North American white context.

806
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: Than anything else.

807
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: And so you sit back and you're like the air

808
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 1: that we're breathing the point about these are the things

809
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: that we've been taught over time. It feels like there's

810
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: such an inertia behind them that you know, we've got

811
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 1: to really dig in right to change the direction.

812
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 3: Where I've seen encouragement is actually globally. So like I've

813
00:47:54,719 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 3: been involved in the UK, there is a Theos which

814
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: is a network for for theologians and sort of broad

815
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 3: sweet religion, kind of broad and and they're doing a

816
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 3: lot of sort of think work and trying to pull

817
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 3: coalitions together. I did a big I did a big

818
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 3: online event they have a conference for women in ministry

819
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 3: throughout the world that they're hosting in Cairo called Women

820
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 3: Rising and and so there. You know, also with the

821
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 3: Baptist World Alliance the b w A, you know, people always,

822
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 3: you know, I always tell them that if I'm the

823
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 3: those are the Baptists that I like the b w A.

824
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 3: I'm very much. I love the b w A Baptists,

825
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 3: and that's a anyway, So I see this, some of

826
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: this work being done globally. I haven't. There are spaces

827
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: in North America where we see different organizations trying to

828
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 3: do it, but it's just really hard. In the space

829
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 3: and the polarized context that we have right now, it

830
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 3: is just really hard to create a middle ground.

831
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 4: Interesting, Yeah, do you think maybe that's just the nature

832
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 4: of a middle ground that those who are trying to

833
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 4: to create space are just always going to be on

834
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 4: the side of having to struggle And maybe that's okay,

835
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 4: But the goal, maybe maybe the lesson is don't give

836
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 4: up the struggle.

837
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: I think that's always the Christian lesson, don't give up

838
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 3: the struggle, you know, because I mean and that it's

839
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 3: going to be suffering. I just finished a study on

840
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 3: revelation in my Sunday school class, and you know, and

841
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 3: Jesus wins by losing, and Christians are called we're that's

842
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 3: carrying our cross, is following a savior who died and

843
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 3: gave it all up for the people who are who

844
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 3: considered worth it. And so I mean, so I don't

845
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 3: think it is easy. I don't think we're called for

846
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 3: it to be easy. I think when it becomes easy

847
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 3: and when we become successful, that's we end up on

848
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 3: those polarized you know, that's it's much more easy. It's

849
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 3: much easier to end up in those polarized sides. I

850
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 3: think it's harder to stay in the middle.

851
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

852
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: It's interesting to think about because even if you're on

853
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: the polarized side and you win, just historically, it doesn't.

854
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 3: Go answer empire. Yeah yeah, And I mean so, I mean, really,

855
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: where you the tension is what you want to keep

856
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 3: and that dialogue. And the more I'm learning about modern

857
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 3: US history, there are moments in US history where we've

858
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 3: gotten close to that. And that's actually, you know, it's like, okay,

859
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I don't believe utopia is ever

860
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 3: going to exist because because because of sin, But I

861
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 3: do think that doesn't mean we don't keep striving for it.

862
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

863
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well we're about out of time for the episode,

864
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: so I want to give you kind of a shot

865
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 1: at a last comment, and I'm interested in just hearing

866
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: a little bit about again, I made the mistake a

867
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: getting on social media, which I'm not a big social

868
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: media guy, but just trying to find, you know, some

869
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: information on the SPC stuff of going on, and so

870
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: I hopped on and I'm looking at these you know,

871
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: as somebody who's trained in biblical interpretation, you sit back

872
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: and you look at some of the reels that go

873
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: buy on Instagram, and you go, well, sort of and

874
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: you sort of sit back and like people who aren't

875
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: trained in this, who really don't have the ability to

876
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: sort of sit back and think, well, the Greek there

877
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: isn't exactly what this is saying, or this is you know,

878
00:51:54,560 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: this isn't connected with that. How How would you just

879
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: someone really start thinking through this issue?

880
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, without going out and.

881
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: You know, going to the SBC website and reading their

882
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 1: side and going you know, because I don't know that

883
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: that helps, but yeah, just thought process on how you'd

884
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: help someone who's just I really like to understand the

885
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: contours of this issue.

886
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: How should I approach it?

887
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 3: So I think Jesus gave us a real you know,

888
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 3: not when we think about the fruit that we bear

889
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 3: and aw is this bearing the fruit of the spirit, love, peace, patients, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness,

890
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 3: self control? Is it following the commandment? What did Jesus

891
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 3: say was the first and greatest commandment? You know? Is

892
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: to love the Lord's your God with all your hearts soul,

893
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 3: and to love your neighbor as yourself. Is what's going

894
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 3: on here. Loving our neighbor is what's going on here.

895
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 3: Showing the fruits of the spirit.

896
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 5: You know.

897
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 3: Paul says that we're just clinging symbols if we're not

898
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 3: showing the fruits of the spirit. And so I think

899
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 3: that's a real you know, just sit back and be like,

900
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 3: are these policies that the people who my church is

901
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 3: putting forward, are they actually bearing the fruits of the spirit?

902
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 3: Are they loving our neighbor? You know, I saw one

903
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 3: just the other day where it was sort of you know,

904
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 3: satirn and Jesus saying people who were before he healed

905
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 3: someone saying do you have health care? And like you know,

906
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 3: should you, And it's like, no, do I mean, you know,

907
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 3: Jesus cared for his neighbor, he healed them and asked

908
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 3: the questions. It didn't actually ever ask the questions, but

909
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 3: you know, what is it? So I think that might

910
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 3: be one like is this a Christian? Is this a Christian? Response? Yeah?

911
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 3: Are they bearing the fruits of the spirit and that

912
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 3: can help us?

913
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, very good you any last questions.

914
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 4: More of a an amen to that. I appreciate ending

915
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 4: with the fruit of the spirit. But yeah, you know,

916
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 4: whatever we want to call them, whether we call them

917
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 4: the ethics or the virtues or whatever that they they

918
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 4: really are there to show you the nature of the tree, right,

919
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 4: and so that's a good place to direct us.

920
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: I think.

921
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, very good, Beth. It's always a pleasure to

922
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: have you on having me. Really enjoyed our last conversation

923
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: on your latest book, and it was I'm blanking on

924
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 1: the title.

925
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: You forgot the titles. Now I'm forgetting titles.

926
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 3: Oh, they're making a biblical womanhood or becoming.

927
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: The pastor's becoming the pastors.

928
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 3: That's my most recently becoming the past Yeah.

929
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: Such an eye opening idea that, like how that came

930
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: about through you know, these different political changes within the

931
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: church and all that kind of fun stuff in medieval times.

932
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: And so it's always fascinating to talk to people who

933
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: know history, I think because you just have a different

934
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: perspective on on things than most of us do an

935
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: daily So it's a lot of fun. And give give

936
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: you a substack. It's Marginalia dot subspact dot com. Am

937
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: I getting that right?

938
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 3: Yep, absolutely, it's the medieval, it's in medieval manuscripts. It's

939
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 3: the writing and the margins, the marginal name Marginellion.

940
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll have both of those linked in the

941
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 1: show notes. Encourage you go check out Beth's work here.

942
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: It's really fantastic and I think you'll find a great

943
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,280
Speaker 1: conversation partner and all of it. So Beth, thanks again

944
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: for being here, Thanks for the work you do, and

945
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: we'll see everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian.

946
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the

947
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

948
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

949
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

950
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.