00:00:00 Speaker 1: I guess I had to decide if my relationship with alcohol was the most important thing in my life, because as long as it was in my life, whether I wanted it to or not, it always had the potential to come in and steal and shut down every other thing I was doing and wanted. Whether I thought it did or not, I'd say it was a pretty abusive relationship. Alcohol is not a kind or fair lover. 00:00:37 Speaker 2: Life audio. 00:00:49 Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is your home for real stories, radical vulner and remarkable comebacks. In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. 00:01:10 Speaker 2: But it's also a place of hope and healing. 00:01:13 Speaker 3: I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today, I've found sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I found Jesus. 00:01:29 Speaker 2: My prayer is. 00:01:30 Speaker 3: That as I interview people just like you and just like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you will find the peace that is available to you through Christ on the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be, because let's face it, we're all addicted to. 00:01:53 Speaker 2: Something so welcome. 00:01:55 Speaker 3: Let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks like to be on this journey of messy sanctification. 00:02:02 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this. 00:02:08 Speaker 3: One of the things that has continued to surprise and also encourage me about doing this podcast is the amount of people who have reached out to me that I know or knew at one time, who I'm close with or who I was close with, who have shared their own story of some full on addiction, others of just reimagining their relationship with a substance or food or something like that. And today's guest is one of those people. Her name is Amy Lee Wicks, and I met Amy back in two thousand and five when or maybe two thousand and six. She was my now wife's roommate in college at the school that we were going to in New York City, and she was this kind of deep thinker yet free spirit, and just got to just got to know her. I was actually talking to someone yesterday and and I forgot that she had dated one of my other really good friends in college as well and after graduation. You know, it's just kind of one of those things where you don't, you know, you just don't keep up with certain people. And she had been really good about not buying into the social media game and been on social media for a long time, so didn't wasn't even really able to follow her until she resurfaced, if you will. 00:03:54 Speaker 2: Over the last year. 00:03:56 Speaker 3: And as I was sharing about my relationship with el and how that changed and just what it did to me, she messaged me and let me know that she had a very similar story, and so I immediately was like, let's talk about that. And that is the conversation you are about to hear. And boy, I am so excited for you to hear this one because I think Amy offers a vision of someone that we haven't maybe had on the podcast yet. She's she's a mom. Have we had moms, Yes, But I just once you start listening to the conversation, you'll see how unique and special and just why I love Amy so much. And so I think this conversation is really good. It's it's it's like I said, it's deep. Amy is a poet. She has become a doctor or got her PhD. And she is someone who just has a way with words. And so we'll talk about her poetry. We'll talk about how her alcohol journey inspired some of her poetry. She has two poetry books that are linked in the show notes that you can get as well. And so I'm just excited about this conversation and for her to talk about what led to her finally realizing, Hey, I need to give alcohol up for good. And this is after she had taken multi a multi year break from alcohol. And what I think is really important about that aspect that you're about to hear is that it wasn't what she realized is that even though she was on a quote unquote break from alcohol for a very long time, she realized just the place that occupied in her life and her thoughts. So I'm really excited for this conversation with Amy. Before we get there, I just want to remind you that a you can watch this podcast at the Veritas Daily dot com. Paign supporters have an opportunity to watch every podcast. And then second, I've started a ministry based on the work in Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic the book as well as this podcast and so many the so many people who have reached out and have been in need of resources. Just made a big announcement yesterday that we have signed a deal with right Now Media, one of the biggest Christian media organizations, and we will be doing a video series based on the book that will come out this fall. And so you can go to Veritasrecovery dot org, veritasrecovery dot org and see all that we are doing, the resources that we have available now what our vision is to create more and if you want to take advantage of some of those, I would be honored. And you know, hey, listen, if there's some way you want to support and can support, would. 00:06:55 Speaker 2: Love to have you as well. 00:06:57 Speaker 3: So, without further ado, Amy Lee Wicks, Amy, it is so good to see you, to hear you. It's been we were talking just before we started, it's been like sixteen years since I, like some people like you have a conversation with and you're like, well, it's been sixteen years since we've seen each other, Like I think it's literally been sixteen years since we've even had a conversation. And then you reached out as I started sharing some stuff about my own journey and basically were like, hey, yeah, so I kind of have a story, Like you gotta be kidding me. 00:07:35 Speaker 1: This is like we got to talk. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me, John. It's awesome to see you reconnect and also to just get to be a little part of what you're doing. I think it's amazing, really good work. 00:07:48 Speaker 3: Well it's funny because I think when when we went to college together, I would have said, obviously you were someone who would become a writer. You're so creative. You were writing back then, just very creatively. I would have quite have said that I would be a writer. But now like here we are, and and to see, like to just see where you are today not just Amy, who I know is like Amy Culor but that's not your name now, but now you're like doctor Amy Lee wicks And with a doctorate in creative writing. And I'm like, holy cow, yeah that makes so much sense. Doesn't make sense for me necessarily be or it makes sense for you to be a writer. 00:08:38 Speaker 1: That's funny. I would have definitely said I would have said you would have been a writer, but you would have had your own TV show, because I don't think podcasting was like a thing then, So I wouldn't have known the podcast, but I would have been like, yeah, John's going to be interviewing people and putting his stuff out there, and people are going to be like, where's John? What is he saying about this? That would have been that would have that would have been what I would have dialed from college. 00:09:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, so kind of in that in that front, like I had you pegged, at least as you know, a creative writer, like what did life in a sense before we kind of get to the degritty, but you know, you were telling me a little bit, but your life took you, Like give me kind of a recap of where you were even just like physically you went from New York City where we met, California, and then you were in New Zealand for a while and now you're back in California. Like, give me just kind of the synopsis of how you got back to where you are today. 00:09:33 Speaker 1: Okay, cool, that's a great question and it lets me wander down that memory. So this is this is fun. So we met, I mean, full disclosure, we met because you were dating my roommate in college. In New York City, who is now your wife, which is amazing, right, And I'm from Staten Island, So even though I'm from Staten Island, Manhattan felt like another world and we adjusted to that together. Finished Kings, I stayed in New York. 00:10:01 Speaker 2: I'm sorry people don't realize that. 00:10:04 Speaker 3: I didn't realize that when I moved to New York City, I had only been I've only been to Staten Island like a hanfl It feels like a whole different universe. Staten Island did not feel like what you think of as New York City. It's so interesting. 00:10:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you live in Staten Island, you say I'm going to the city even though you're in one of the boroughs. It's yeah, And I'm from Staten Island. And then we moved upstate when I was a kid for my dad to pastor at church. So but my heart since I was like five, was like, I will be in the city where I go to see Broadway shows with Raphael, Like that's where I'm going back. And then yeah, I finished Kings and I went to a couple of my professors and was like, I think I want to pursue this writing thing, and They were so lovely and kind and also really cautionary, I think because they'd read some of my poems that were very confessional and had alcoholism in them at an early twenties, and they were like, oh, maybe take a couple of classes and see see if you want to be putting your stuff out there or if you more want to be studying literature. And so I took some classes at City College and ended up doing a second bachelor's there because I had enough credits to work that out and was like, yep, nope, this is what I want to do. So then I went to the New School, also in Manhattan, and I did my MFA there and that was when we get into the nitty gritty. There was an interesting intersection when you push against something. So at Kings, I felt like I was always pushing against the boundaries artistically and in life. I was just like, yeah, I need more space. And then at the New School, I found myself craving structure and form and kind of rhythms and I guess something more sustainable for my life. And then when I was finishing up at the New School, David Lehman was my advisor. He is a genius he's the guy that put together the Best American Poetry series. And I was semi day talking to the guy that would become my husband, and I was like, Oh, where would you go if you could go anywhere? And he said I'd go back to New Zealand. And I said why and he said, you'd have to find out for yourself. And I took that kind of as an invitation, like this mysterious man is telling me to go to New Zealand. So I studied New Zealand literature at the New School. And David Lehman was like, you've got to go there and find out about more like you've studied it here, but you have to go there and see what the work is about. And I was studying a poet who was an alcoholic. He called himself a dry drunk. Even though he was sober for most of his later adult life, he's still really held a lot of his poetry references that as kind of this this thing that he both overcame and still wrestled with for his adult life. And that's whoy I studied for my PhD. Was James K. Baxter. He was kind of like a bright star in the constellation of all the writers I was studying, and yeah, so I finished the new school. I ended up getting engaged and married in like two weeks. We rode motorcycles from New York City to California, and then we rode up the coast and we landed in reading. And then I got accepted into the PhD program. So we sold our motorcycles and flew to New Zealand and lived there. I was there for about six years, and then in twenty twenty, my husband got offered a job. I lost my job because I got a bad brain injury, and I came back to reading and he worked and I painted and sat in a dark room for months, and then I gradually got better, and then unexpectedly got better, and then I sort of said yes to my heart, the big part of my heart that has had been acting and performing since I was a little kid. And I stepped into a role at a small arts conservatory teaching drama and then becoming the head of drama and training actors and crawling on the floor and doing all that fun stuff. And that's what I've been doing for the last four years. Yeah, and now over're here. 00:14:24 Speaker 3: And so here's what's so interesting is you know, I think if you're listening to this, you're listening to Amy, and you know, like she's soft spoken, and but like I don't remember you that way, like I remember you even more so just like you know, it's just so interesting to see how you've grown and changed. And I'm sure you're looking at me and you're like, well you had hair when I need Yeah, I did I and now I'm bald. But but the so here you are like now pursuing you know, this love. 00:14:59 Speaker 2: Of acting. 00:15:00 Speaker 3: And I would say, what's so funny about social media? There's obviously a dark side, there's obviously an addictive side, there's like we're constantly budding up against that. But I think what is so interesting is the way that we were able to reconnect is you. I think you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you kind of got to this point where you're like I want to act full time or that's like what I want to pursue, Like I kind of need some sort of a social media presence and or at least this is part of it. And so you like restarted your Instagram and I see you and I'm like I'm watching Amy, like quote Shakespeare and recite her poems and I'm like, oh. 00:15:39 Speaker 2: My gosh, this is awesome. I get to reconnect. 00:15:41 Speaker 3: But like you, you were off social media. I think, like for as long as I like a better part of the last sixteen years. 00:15:50 Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, it was about eleven years. So this was the first time I like opened that box and stepped in and yeah, exactly what you said. It's both like a maze and it's also insane, and it's been wild to see stories didn't exist eleven years ago on Instagram. Yeah, and so just navigating that world, but also seeing yeah, people like yourself, other people that I went to school with or grad school with who I haven't spoken with or connected with, and all of a sudden, I'm just seeing these little snippets of people's lives. And also there seems to be a trend, if I can call it a trend, of like people that are about our age are starting to unravel pain and trauma in a way that's really beautiful and that I think would have been non existent or there would we wouldn't have had language for it, maybe largely in the circles that I was aware of, Like there was there was pain, but my pain usually geared toward like rebellion or self medication. I think other kind of pain was, Yeah, it would have been stuffed down or silenced, and now there seems to be this kind of opening about it. 00:17:07 Speaker 3: So yeah, it's very interesting. What is what has been your biggest because you're it's it's interesting. It's like you're coming into this world of social media. You're stepping into it, and in some ways I'm kind of like watching you too, Like I'm watching like how you're how you're interacting with it, you know, like what has been your biggest takeaway? And I know you just shared, you know what you shared, maybe that's it, But what has been your biggest way? 00:17:36 Speaker 2: You know, it's. 00:17:36 Speaker 3: Almost like you've emerged from this you could say this this bunker if you will, of no social media, and then I can only imagine the flood of like you're like, holy crap, this is like what has been surprising for you? 00:17:53 Speaker 1: I think the beauty and the pain of other people worlds and being like oh wow, this time that I was in my own silent world or silent in the sense of not being on social media, I was experiencing things and the thought of coming into social media, I was like, oh wow, I don't. I don't look or sound ready to myself. I feel like I had I would have wanted to present from a platform or from a place of having things figured out, but instead I feel like I'm coming in on a tide of like I will be quoting Shakespeare while I run out to cool down my car to put baby in it, because I actually don't have time or capacity to polish and set things up. And I thought that would have been a real disadvantage. But the feedback I keep getting is it's actually refreshing, because I guess because of so much AI things are perfect and polished and imagined. But life that's that's the edge that life has. And I think that's the edge that that I've found becoming a mom, as well as like the messiness that's that overtakes the wildness that overtakes any sense of order and like any sense of having laundry folded or dishes always done. It's like there is this driving life force that is way messier and less containable. And I think coming onto social media and realizing like I can either embrace that and then come on and just be there, or I'm I'm gonna post one thing like every year when I get ready to go to a Christmas party, I. 00:19:44 Speaker 3: Don't yeah, right, exactly exactly, well, And I didn't mean to make it sound like you're living in it. You weren't living in a bunker, like obviously you were a social media but I can museum. 00:19:55 Speaker 1: It's a bit of a bunker. It's a good well, it's a beautiful bunker. 00:20:00 Speaker 3: I know someone from New Zealand and they say that, dude. But you you mentioned something there that I think is a really good segue. And so you talked about self medicating. And what's interesting too, is even just something you said even before that that I picked up on was that you had you had started writing poetry in your early twenties that related to alcohol, which I had no idea, right like like that would have put me, or that would have put us around the time of knowing each other, I believe, And I had no idea. 00:20:32 Speaker 2: I am like Amy's you. 00:20:34 Speaker 3: Know, the quintessential overused phrase like Amy's a free spirit. Like I get that, you know, but I never would have thought like you were kind of wrestling with with something. So take us, we said, we get into the Nindy gritty. I just love for you to walk me through and walk us through your story of your relationship with alcohol. Where it started, how it started you're writing about it, and then where you realize I can't do this anymore. 00:21:00 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this, okay. 00:21:06 Speaker 1: I My first taste of alcohol, I think was at like a cousin's party when I was a little kid. I thought I was grabbing my root beer, but I grabbed someone's beer and it was vile. I was probably like four. I have lots of early memories, and I remember being like, oh, and then I mean, when I was in like fourth grade, I remember a friend's uncle put vodka in our milkshake because she was like, come on, this would be great. And I remember tasting and be like, I don't really like this. But I mean, it's so strange to think about it now, especially having a kid, and being like I was so little and that was that existed, and stealing her grandma's beers I mean, like really little fourth grade, not often, but like it was just one of the things you did when you were at sleepovers and things like that. And it's funny because my parents were very strict and I was allowed to go to very few people's homes, and even in that there was still that element, which is it's sort of a strange draw you think for a kid. And it wasn't like I was like I love alcohol, I want alcohol. It was just that's just my that was my introduction. Yeah, and I probably I have probably there's probably a pattern of stopping drinking and becoming a good girl, or trying to please either my parents or church or myself or my own standards and then swinging the other way for a bit. So in high school, I actually didn't I didn't drink, I didn't do any any drugs or kind of. 00:22:52 Speaker 2: I had. 00:22:52 Speaker 1: I had been found sneaking out when I was thirteen or fourteen, and it was not a good situation and the police were involved and my parents had to come and get me. And it was this mortifying experience that turned my summer into like I was like, I am becoming a nun. And so I sort of did. For high school for the next couple of years, I like hyperachieved. I was president of my class, I was prom queen, I was president of the National Honor Society. I was like in all of the clubs, I could be in and I was sort of just I would just go and I was alive. I felt alive, I was doing theater. I really loved my life. But by senior year, I had this kind of tick over into disenchantment with everything. Everything felt small, I felt stuck. I cut off all my hair. I had worked at a summer camp and saw children experiencing trauma. So I had these like these kind of moments that were shaping me and moving me, I guess into who I would later become. I graduated from high school, and I did classes while I was in high school at a community college and finished those up, and then I moved to King's which is where we went to the same school in Manhattan, and I was in I would say, just an unhealthy, codependent relationship for the first year of that. And that was when I was roomates with your wife. And my roommates were so sweet and kind, and I think they secretly tried to plan interventions for me and I just I just fell asleep crying most nights and was working like forty hours a week while in school full time. I wasn't alcohol wasn't really a part of my life. But I was at mister Chow's. Weren't you and Stephanie working at mister Chow? So I was at Republic, Stephanie was at Yeah, I was at Republic. So right in Union Square, fast paced and it's probably similar, probably similar vibe maybe, but yeah, I was at Republic for eight years. 00:25:02 Speaker 3: I was at that same way. I remember, Yes, Okay, this is so weird. It's like it's like, you know how, like you smell something and it brings me back, like I hear your voice, I see your face, and it's like bringing these random memories black. It's just so crazy, and so, yes, you were. I remember you were there for and you were always working, and I can remember that. I won't say his name, but those pre K years and post K years or you know, or breakup years, I should say yes, yeah, pre Amy and then post Amy for sure. 00:25:32 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And I think I can look back and see like a lot of that was partially because I was trying to contain and do my duty towards God and family as best my eighteen year old brain and self understood it, and so I was just spinning myself, you know. And then I came back after that first summer I had broken off an engagement and I sort of was like, I am young and I'm free. Yes, And then I went out dancing like three nights a week, and I still I wasn't drinking. I didn't need alcohol. I really genuinely just was like, I just that Whitney Houston song man. I wanted to dance with somebody, yeah, all day, every day. And I kind of started slacking in my classes. For the first time. I was getting by, but I stopped performing and I started kind of trying to just to have fun and enjoy. And I think I left the country for the first time and went to Paris with one of my best childhood friends and her twin sister and there and then I took a trip to see a roommate and there was a real drinking culture. When I went to see my former French exchange student who I adored, Cecil, and I went to a show and I smoked my first sixte and I drank wine. And I remember sitting at Christmas table and her family were like they were. They would ask I didn't speak any French, and they would just be like, do you want more? And I'd be like, poor cua pa, like why not? And I remember drinking like many glasses of wine and just having fun and feeling icky the next day, but not thinking much of it. But on my return to New York, I think alcohol just kind of like crept up. I had no intentions. I didn't think I was self medicating. I thought I would just have drinks at a party or glasses of wine. And then and then I moved in. I moved out of college housing in with someone else, and I remember the the person I lived with had a bottle of rum. It was like just a big bottle of rum. And we were just going to watch a movie and I was I think I was twenty at this point, so I'm pretty young, I mean, and I was just going to watch a movie and I was like, oh, yeah, I'll have some rum and maybe white cheddar cheese. It's because that was my favorite snack. And I remember going in the kitchen and I filled up a mug, like just filled it up to the top and drank the whole thing. And then I went and filled it again. And I don't remember anything else, but when I woke up in the morning, I had somehow made it to my bed and I woke up in the morning and there was like vomit all on the walls around me, and I realized like I had drank myself into a blackout and an accident and had thrown up everywhere, and was like it was this strange, like hah, like this thing that happened to me, it felt like and that probably was the beginning of that thing happening to me, which isn't what happened, but that was the feeling like, oh, that would happen more and more frequently, not always, but I noticed that as I would socialize and as I would go to events, like really classy events, if there was wine and cheese, I just never wanted like a glass of wine. I wanted like a bottle and a half. And people would be like, we should just get a glass of wine, and I always just I don't know where it came from. I don't know who gave me that idea, but in my head I thought, like, a glass of wine is like it's a code word, right for like anything could happen, and that that was sort of just how it would be. I'd go to a church event and there'd be wine, and I'd be like sweet, and everybody would have left and I'd be like sitting out on the curb drinking a bottle of wine in a dress with my shoes off, Like where am I what? You know? And so it's strange because I think probably people that went to school with me thought like, oh, Amy's crazy, she goes out dancing, But I was like I was. Actually those were like the sober fun trying to be young and experience I think freedom and healing with loud music and getting to move and sweat, and it was it was the It was when I tried to insert myself into like normal events where there would be alcohol, that I would find myself drinking a lot more than my roommates or my friends. And and then by. 00:30:09 Speaker 3: The way, yeah, real quickly, I think it's so and you said, you said some stuff there that is and I think it's hard for some people to fathom, maybe who are listening to this, especially if you're like I'm in Dallas now, like if you're in this kind of Bible belt area. But I actually talk about this in the book that's coming out to that that there was when I, you know, so Brett and I got married. We lived in Denver for a year and then we moved back to the city for a couple of years, and that's where you know, I started. There was just some on unhealthy patterns that I started noticing. But part of the unhealthy patterns were that, you know, you talked about going to a church event or going to a small group like when you're in New York City at that time, at least for me, and now it sounds like for you, it's like everyone was drinking wine everyone like you brought it to small group, you brought it to church, like it just was there. And I think there's some people who listened to that, maybe they go to some you know, small baptist Rician like I can't imagine that, Yeah, but it was. It's interesting to me that how prevalent that was there's and it was kind of under this guise of like East Coast sophistication, maybe a little bit like yeah, you just drink It's just it's just a glass of wine. Right. But so it's just it's funny to me that that's that's also a part of my story, and it sounds like it's a part of years that there was, at least for me it was it was at least part of a desensitization maybe not saying that people that that we're doing it, we're handling it wrong or doing it wrong. But I just it was part of my desensitization. I guess to to that fact, I'm like, well, I mean I'm at church, small group, like that's just normal. 00:31:56 Speaker 1: Mh. 00:31:58 Speaker 2: Was that like that upstate? Was that like that on Staten Island? 00:32:01 Speaker 3: Like what? 00:32:02 Speaker 1: No? 00:32:03 Speaker 3: No? 00:32:03 Speaker 1: So I came from I mean conservative, fundamental, independent King James only usually Baptist churches. So that's my upbringing, So there would have been no alcohol in my home growing up at all. It was a very like we were. It was a clean, sober house, clean sober church. I mean definitely heard beer referred to as satans you're on more than one occasion in church. But because of that polarity, because of it was just like a nothing thing. And then being in a culture where people that I loved and respected handled alcohol maturely and responsibly, and I wasn't in some ways, I wasn't seeing the deprivation and chaos or abuse that I saw growing up in other churches that in these settings, and so I I think for me, what happened and is I blindly assumed this is just a thing like anything else, that if they're okay with it, I'll be okay with it because I can just make a decision. And I wasn't really prepared for the undertow of alcohol in my life. I didn't expect it to be so strong. I didn't expect I didn't think of myself as an alcoholic ever until after I stopped drinking. And I think a friend had like this little questionnaire book and she's like, can I ask you some questions? And I was like yeah, and I was answering, not knowing what the context was, and she's like, okay, so you had a real problem then, and I was like did I I don't know. I didn't, are you sure? And if I thought of like because I had a season of sobriety that I thought was just going to be a season, but I noticed in this season when I thought like, Okay, all right, I'm going to do this for three years and that's so long. But for the first two years, I literally was like, I cannot wait until I get to go drink when this is over. 00:34:06 Speaker 3: And that was. 00:34:09 Speaker 1: Really in my mind, was like, well, as soon as this time is up, then it's my time again. And I was like, who is that weird voice that is like clawing for this thing that has never benefited me. There's not been a point in my life where it's given me more than it's taken. And so it probably took two and a half years into what I thought was a three year fast before I sort of really had to come to a decision of like, oh, is this something that I can is this something that I believe will serve my life? Or do I say it's just not for me? I just maybe it's just not for me. And I felt angry about that because I felt like, no, I can look around me and see people having a good time, and I love a good you know, noir, And what the this doesn't make any sense. I'm mature too, I should be able to handle this. And yeah, it was kind of a humbling thing to be like, but I but I can't. And for me in my life, it's not something that I it's not something that I think will serve me well. And so for the foreseeable future that that was that decision. 00:35:24 Speaker 3: So take me back to You're in New York City, Like, how do you go from that point in your life where you're drinking outside on the curb when everyone else is gone to the point where you realize, okay, I'm going to give it up for three years. 00:35:39 Speaker 2: What does that section of time look like? 00:35:42 Speaker 1: So there were a few kind of blackout sections of drinking, and then there was the long slow of I had written a book and I had published it, and I was running the slam poetry circuit, so I was performing like three nights a week, so I would go and work at Republic, and then I would go to these poetry slams, thinking I'm going to go read a poem and then leave, and then I would have spent most of my tip money drinking on accident. I mean months of this, like multiple times a week, being like, shoot, I don't have money again, shoot where is it going? I don't even know where it's going. And a lot of people would give me drinks as well, so I would feel like, oh, bonus. But once someone gives you a drink, you have to keep going, so then you anyway, And somewhere in there I had started smoking as well. I'd started smoking cigarettes and then I started smoking weed, and then I had a really bad time, and then I remember taking ecstasy and thinking like this doesn't feel like me. But also there was this kind of hollow, empty thing, and I hadn't stopped going to church. I mean, okay, I did for a while, but I had come back to the Lord and felt like I just couldn't get a handle on things. So if I had a really bad night of drinking or if I was doing drugs, would I would text the guy that ran set up at church for the early service and I'd be like, I'll be there tomorrow to set up. And that was how I did penance. I would get up hungover and I would ride my bike for forty five minutes to get there at like seven am and move heavy things and sweat out the alcohol from the night before. And I was like, I don't really know why this is the way that this is, but the pattern was getting a little bit more strong. And then I think it was like a night before Christmas or New Year's and my parents were going to be visiting the city and I had a night where I was drinking with someone that I didn't want to be and I remember waking up in the morning and was like, this, this is awful, this is not me, this isn't my life. Simultaneously I was attempting to really market my book and try to figure out who I was as a writer, and my drinking was getting in the way of that. And so as I'm like searching for answers and ready for a change, I walked into a church that was being planted on a Wednesday night, and I heard, like the first five minutes the pastor was preaching from the first book of Daniel, first chapter of Daniel, and there's only one book of Daniel, the first chapter, and he was talking about how Daniel wouldn't eat the king's wine or meat, and he was given all understanding of dreams, prophecy, visions, basically, like all the stuff I wanted to know. I wanted. I wanted amuse for my writing. I wanted inspiration regularly. I wanted to understand literature. I wanted to be able to engage in culture. And my way of socializing and drinking wasn't working because I would take a step forward socializing and ten steps back by drinking. And I was like, maybe I could try that, and so I started with thirty days a thirty day fast, and it was it was brutal. I cried a lot. I was not happy, but during that time, I felt like I felt like I could maybe commit to a three year fast from alcohol and meet. 00:39:29 Speaker 2: I was going to do both. 00:39:30 Speaker 1: I was going to do the King's Wine and meat and yeah. And I started doing that, and I grumbled and complained about it, but I was the one that nobody told me to do it. This was just like my own strategy for marketing success was to stop drinking and see if I could get insight into literature. And I noticed something. I noticed. I knew where I fell asleep at night. I didn't have like as many memories missing. I knew the people that I interacted with and what we talked about. I would remember emotions that I felt at social events or if someone embarrassed me or was unkind to me, but I rarely remembered what I said or what they said or where you know, like I just had these patchy things. And I noticed that that started to fade. And I noticed that I started to feel pain, emotional pain more acutely, which was rough and sent me on another necessary journey. But I would rather be on the journey of feeling the pain believing that there's a way to heal and integrate from that than be on the journey that I was at where I was just kind of spinning wildly and not worried about whether I'd crash or not because it didn't. 00:40:56 Speaker 3: Yeah, can I ask you about that, because I think I. 00:41:01 Speaker 2: Would say the same thing now, right. 00:41:03 Speaker 3: I mean, I stopped drinking, and you know, I tell people I'm own as I'm like, it wasn't. It wasn't roses and butterflies. Like I'm literally just like pacing my house in my garage because I don't know what to do with myself. I don't know how to sit with myself and be with myself, you know. And I think there's a lot of people that hear that and they're like, well, I don't want that, you know, like you're you're telling me Amy that you'd rather be on this, like you'd rather be feeling those emotions and do like no, I want to drink those away, like I just I just want to escape from this. 00:41:39 Speaker 2: Why is that good news? 00:41:41 Speaker 3: Like? Why is how do you explain to someone that, like, no, I'm telling you it's going to be painful and yet it's good. 00:41:49 Speaker 2: How why? 00:41:52 Speaker 1: I think Cause it's part of growing up, Like I have a two year old now, and when I think about like him and what I want him to experience, Like, there's a huge part of me as a mom that's like, I want you to be happy, I want you to be safe, I want you to feel loved. And there's another part that knows, if I prioritize safety, even of your emotions, then I am cutting you off from life because life hurts and life life is full of beauty and joy, but it's also full of contrast. There are painful elements to being alive, and they help you become more yourself when you can be in them, and it's there's no shame on trying to escape them. Your your nervous system, your your heart and body are doing their very best to try to hedge their bets for you. And so I remember there was a long season where I was smoking a lot and it was because I was I was actually sick. I had mono and I was dealing with limes disease. But I talked to this like natural path doctor and she was like, well, your body's actually just reaching for something to get you through the next five minutes because you're going so fast that it's like, oh, she's not going to rest and she doesn't. She's not going to go out and shed. Maybe she can't afford bone broth. So we'll just give her five minutes. We'll just give her another pot of coffee. And I think I think saying yes to the to that dry space that's uncomfortable is saying yes to ultimately fullness and integration. It's not saying it's going to be painful and hard forever. It's saying, if you want to see all of the colors, then you get to see black and white and red and purple and green. But you can't you can't decide I don't like that color, so we have to take that one out. It's like, no, they're all of the colors, all of the shapes, all of the things that is life. That's kind of like yeah, as a mom, when I think about for my son, but then also for myself, I want fullness of life. And I think I don't want to be so spiritually focused that I'm disconnected from the pain of reality. And I don't want to be so stuck in the pain of my reality that I'm unable to be present. There are two sides of the same coin that like frenzied alcoholism, and sort of stoic purity. I feel like walking out life and being human. That's a mountain I'm willing to die on. Yeah. 00:44:59 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think alcohol is not a precision numbing agent, you know, like like that's good, you take it, and it's like it's not gonna it will, at least for me, it will help me escape those thoughts or being with myself. Yes, but it's it does so much more. It numbs so much more. And I think I love that you said about colors because I I write this that once, once I stopped drinking, I was like I could you know, it was like I could I could taste colors, you know, I could see, I could see sound, you know what I mean. Like it was just like my senses were just like, holy crap, like this is I've been numbing for so long that I didn't realize. You know, I made the joke about coming out of a bunker earlier. It's like like coming out of a bunker and emerging and be like, oh wow, okay, did you. 00:46:08 Speaker 2: Did you ever. 00:46:11 Speaker 3: Figure out in a sense what what was it that you were? And maybe it wasn't quite like this, but what was it that you were? Trying to numb or what was it that you were trying to do with the alcohol, because you you can go back. 00:46:26 Speaker 2: You had said that like you did feel. 00:46:28 Speaker 3: Alive when you were dancing and sweating, and like I remember that, you know, and is it just that it just kind of creeped in there and said, well, you can have more of that if you have me as an alcohol or what was it? 00:46:43 Speaker 2: What was that draw for you? 00:46:51 Speaker 1: So one of our professors, doctor Innis doctor in as well is Republic and he talked about the different types of people the Felo's philosophers the most the warrior spirits and arrows like and we hear arrows, which is where the word erotic comes from when we think of love and passion and sensuality. But he talked about arrows being this drive for newness, for beauty. You would go to the ends of the world to try a new food, this desire to kind of partake. I guess to feast. And I think there was there was something in me that like had I thought I was like hungry enough that I could eat the whole world. And when I tried alcohol that felt like more like it just there was just like a more button in me that got pushed and I didn't think that I was trying to have more fun or become a different person or hide or heal from pain. I just thought I want I just I want this. This, This is great. I don't like how I feel the next day, but that can't be related to this thing that is fun and part of feasts and part of exploring and traveling, and in a lot of ways that felt like part of the social thing. 00:48:20 Speaker 2: But it. 00:48:22 Speaker 1: I don't know if if genetically because alcoholism ran in my family that it it sort of snuck up on me. But I would say my intent with alcohol was to not miss out on life. I never wanted. I always wanted as much life as I could have. And Ronald Rallheiser talks about like he describes Princess di As as being someone who like would move toward these this outpouring of love, and she go and do all of these benefits and fundraisers and things, and then she would be on boat with people partying and having fun, and how she stood like in the center of both worlds. And then Mother Teresa was like purely the outpouring of her fire toward the poor. And then Janis Joplin, like overdosed on life. They would say. So, I think when I thought of like my fire or this my spirituality is a fire, I just didn't understand how to use what was in me. And so when you pour gasoline or in my case, alcohol in that fire, it it took on a life of its own. Rather than me kind of being like, oh, I'm going to use this thing, this secret thing, it was more of like whoa, there it goes. And when I figured out that I could live without it, then I could start to cultivate that fire and put it toward things that were more true to what was actually in my heart to do. 00:49:56 Speaker 3: So you referenced that you had started writing about this, this relationship or you know, with alcohol in college. 00:50:06 Speaker 2: What were you writing? Like? What were you saying about it? 00:50:09 Speaker 1: Then? 00:50:09 Speaker 2: How are you speaking about it? 00:50:12 Speaker 1: Yeah? So I had my first book was published on my twenty first birthday. It's called Orange Juice and Rooftops. A few loving, well meaning professors encouraged me to not publish it, and I was like, you guys are haters. Here we go. I got a publishing contract, so I published it, and there's a lot of pain, Like I actually was visiting my dad recently and saw the book on a shelf, which I'm shocked at his level of love and care that he would have my book on his shelf, because it's that book is filled with pain and kind of marks of someone who struggles with alcoholism. I talked about having a lot of rum for lunch and feeling funny, the sensations in my body of numbness and how I enjoyed them. I talked about meeting strangers. It was kind of like the beginning, the beginning of time melting in me, kind of like just being like, oh, this is this chemical reaction between me and alcohol. And then so that book Orange Juice and Rooftops is really a kind of early twenties while I'm still drinking, messy memoir ish but also grandized version of different parts of me at different times where alcohol was involved. And I told you that I really drove to kind of market I pushed. I was doing the work, I was tiring myself out. Well. Fast forward years later in New Zealand, I had done my three year fast and decided I'd be sober. And then I was doing a PhD. And my life looked so different. I lived Somewhere Beautiful had rhythms for my writing, rather than the kind of manic scrawling and filling papers and pulling receipts together. This was like, I write every day. I write at the same time every day. It's a little bit boring. I teach other people to write. I spend time with them. We cultivate poetry together. I volunteer my time here. I help do these things. And I had a publisher pursue me. I had the book came together in a way that felt more like a gallery and less like a stack of here you know, yes, And my reflections back were like, oh, I can see my hunger and my need, but I needed care and I needed some direction. 00:52:46 Speaker 3: I think, by the way, that's what I'm picking up on right. Like I talked about that early, just when we started the interview, like Amy. That I knew as Amy was this, you know, free spirit. And that's not to say you're not. I think you're to use your own words, you're more mature free spirit, but it is like, yeah, I hear I even I can even just hear that right that, Like it went from from more of a manic to more of a methodical to use alliteration because I love a literation. 00:53:20 Speaker 2: You know that, and you can see that in you. So when you what were you saying? You know? 00:53:33 Speaker 3: I think there's a whole chapter of my book that I talk about like how does this happen? 00:53:38 Speaker 1: Right? 00:53:38 Speaker 3: Like how can you be the Christian that becomes an alcoholic? And I mean you've hit on that to a certain extent. But I'm always curious what people like us are telling ourselves during these stages where I know, I think at times I would have these kind of out of body experiences where I'm looking down on myself and I'm like, what are you doing? 00:53:59 Speaker 1: You know? 00:54:01 Speaker 3: And by drink a point, you know, But like in those moments, like the moment you wake up and you know there's vomit all over or you know you've blacked out, what are you telling yourself as it relates to the idea of I mean, we grew up in the church. We know this isn't like the flourishing life necessarily that's been promised to us. Like we're told not to do this, but we do it. What are you telling yourself, either consciously or subconsciously, to say this is okay, We'll be right back after this. 00:54:44 Speaker 1: I think I came to a conflict point where I realized a lot of what I had seen in the churches that I had grown up in. There was a lot of There was a lot of abuse. There were a lot of children being hurt. There were a lot of really dark things, people taking advantage of positions that they were in that I saw and experienced as a child. But just we just were in church whenever the doors were open, whatever church we went to, we were there Sunday morning, Sunday night, Thursday night Bible study, sometimes Wednesday night Bible study. And my family was faithful to that. Like that was like we get dressed, we go to church, we do this thing. And we were at churches that really studied the Word of God. Like I mean, I was always winning scripture memorization competitions and for prizes. Yes yes, yes, sword drill, family hardcore. And when I moved, there was like a series of events that happened, Like I moved to New York City, which felt both like home and also overwhelming, and like I was supposed to know where I was because I was from there, but I didn't. I broke off an engagement and then I started drinking, and kind of all of them felt like at this temporary or not temporary. I felt in my heart like I was the woman in Song of Solomon who was like, I am dark, don't look on me. And while I was drinking, it's this weird a thing. I felt like I was being pursued by God and like I was throwing wind bottles at him, and I was like, no, I know who you are, and I don't like you. I don't like these things that I've seen in your house. I don't like the way that I felt in a relationship. I don't like these masculine elements of the Gospel. 00:56:48 Speaker 2: And so. 00:56:51 Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily justify what I was doing. I just sort of owned every sin woman's persona in the Bible and was like, deal with it. This is this is now me. And that happened, so that hardness didn't happen right away because I really did want to be the good girl. I was performing, I was achieving, I was doing those things, and then when something kind of broke or tipped at the same time I started drinking, I sort of was like, well, that didn't work out for me. We'll try this other path where I will achieve for my literary work or whatever, and I can and I can live in this world and the drinking and whatever. So yeah, I think I probably was harder on myself than anyone could have been on me. And if I look back, and if I think of like if I now were to meet little Amy, I would have so much compassion. I would just probably have a place on my couch for her to come and sit. I wouldn't ask questions, but I'd listen if she wanted to talk, and and I would once in a while be like, you let me know if you need something. You let me know if you if you need help. Because I think knowing that, like there's always a way home, you can always come home, you can always come home, is really important. There's no s duckness too far, there's no yeah, no shadow too dark. 00:58:32 Speaker 3: That word compassion, you know, as I've dug through my trauma growing up, and you know, big T trauma but also little T trauma, you know, and for people listening, like the big T trauma is those things that like, Okay, it's the it's the sexual abuse, or it's the you know, the physical abuse or whatever, but but the little T trauma, the stuff like you know, a hunt, trauma, and and I think we don't do a good job of talking about this in the Christian in the Christian Church, in our Christian communities these days because because I think too many people write it off as just like mumbo jumbo. But like there's a world where you can look back and say in your story that Amy was doing those things. Little Amy was like hard, I'm gonna I'm gonna just throw myself into the sinful woman, as you said, and yet have compassion for that person. And I think some people in the church today gets so weird, that so scared that like you use that word compassion and they're like, you just defying it, like you're so you're just okay with everything you were doing or you know, like and and it's not it's like it's nuanced, but we don't like nuance. But how do you explain that nuance? Like, how do you explain that ability to look back and have compassion and just and still say like, but that still wasn't the flourishing, fulfilled, peaceful life that the Lord had promised me. 01:00:09 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think a part of it is seeing the pain that someone's in and seeing not little Amy's actions as this defiant attempt to be God, but rather like a like a kid who throws a tantrum and they've gone past the point where you're like, Okay, you're gonna be in time out or you're gonna you're gonna receive this punishment. It's like that that child's nervous system is not regulated or in any state to have any kind of logical conversation. What do they need? They need a hug. They need to be told you're you're having a really hard time, and I'm right here and it's okay that you're having a really hard time. And so that I think is what I would offer, not just my little self, but but I would say for for those who feel angry or defensive at giving compassion to someone in that space, they probably also need a hug, because that anger is coming from a place of no, I've had to hold it together for this long while they are ruining everything. Right, It either were the older brother in the prodigal story or the younger brother. The father has compassion for both. Actually he doesn't. He doesn't just drive out the older brother and say like, why are you being such a jerk? Just let him come home. He's like, Oh, you've been in my house and didn't know what you had, but we're gonna throw this party for your younger brother as well. And I think, like shifting from I've lived as both. But my heart is to be doing what Jesus said he did when he does what he hears the Father saying to do. And that's where I'm listening and in my own life, not just for myself, but for the people that I'm interacting with. I think anger can be justified. It's usually coming from a place, but what we do with it and whether we need a hug in our anger and lack of understanding. Some people like, don't hug me. Okay, okay, you don't need a hug. You need fresh air, that's fine. 01:02:16 Speaker 3: And when you said that, and I got emotional because I think, for so much of my life is like I wanted that hug, and I wontn't have been able to say that, like John at twenty five, twenty one, thirty, even thirty thirty five wouldn't have even been able to say that, you know, And I think in some ways it's a physical hug, but it's this metaphorical hug, you know, that you're like, you know, we all want to be seen, you know, seen so safe and secure, right, and it's like when we miss out on those things, especially in our formative years, which by the. 01:02:57 Speaker 2: Way, like I think you you struggle with some things and I. 01:03:02 Speaker 3: Don't know your family of origin story, but it's but maybe maybe some things were done that were intentional, but you know, it's it's okay to like recognize and admit that stuff. And it doesn't have to mean that your family or your parents or everyone did it intentionally. You know, if you had maybe a piece of advice for people who are out there who are maybe you know like you or in that in that position or in that place, like what what do you feel like you would have needed to hear if they're listening to this and they're like, yeah, that's me, Like I see myself and Amy, Like what would you say? 01:03:45 Speaker 1: I would say, I'm so glad you're still here. There's so much grace for you. And there's another way. There's a way that's full, that's into graded, that's not without pain, but it is full of love. And there is a way you can get to where you can be your own best friend and advocate to where you can offer to yourself the things that you maybe needed and weren't given, and that journey is worth going on. There is light at the end of the tunnel and it is not a train. 01:04:30 Speaker 3: Let me ask you this one question before we wrap it up. Yeah, and you know you had talked about real quickly this this moment two and a half years into three the deal you had made with yourself, right, And that's shocking to me, but not shocking to me in this in this sense is like I was just talking to someone today who had gone seven months right without a drink, and they got to the point where they're like, I think I can have one. And it wasn't just one, you know, And I think there's some people who are like maybe they're a year into their three year deal, like that's kind of a popular thing, right, I'm gonna give it up for a year. How did you, like, fully know? No, I can't take I can't keep doing this. Like what was that in your brain that finally flipped? Because I think people need to hear that because it's not about time. It's not about time, And this is what I make a big deal in my book about. It's not about quantity. It's not about time, it's about your relationship with alcohol. And it sounds like you have this like epiphany about my relationship with alcohol. 01:05:45 Speaker 2: What was that. 01:05:47 Speaker 1: I guess I had to decide if my relationship with alcohol was the most important thing in my life, because as long as it was in my life, whether I wanted it to or not, it always had the potential to come in and steal and shut down every other thing I was doing and wanted. Whether I thought it did or not, I'd say it was a pretty abusive relationship. Alcohol is not a kind or fair lover, but it will give you this false feeling that you're in control, or for me, it did anyway. And I think I had tried a lot of times to be like, oh, just well, this evening is just going to be now, I have an early morning, so it's going to be fine. Didn't matter, and sometimes it worked. And that's the thing about I guess. It's funny. Religion is similar. And when I say religion, I mean the system of religion, Like, yeah, maybe you on your best day can achieve that, but you'll spend the rest of your time trying to get there, And that other potential for failure, for kid catastrophe, for having things stolen from you is just sort of ever present. So while there was that time that I decided to set it apart for three years, I would say for me, I didn't. I didn't have the benefit or the comfort of knowing how badly my relationship with alcohol, what I was in it until it was retrospect. It was later reflecting that I could see, oh oh that was worse than I thought. In it, I just was like, I need I need a hard pause. And in the hard pause, I was like, I think I need a harder pause. And later I could see. But yeah, Amy, thank you so much. Thanks for being vulnerable. 01:07:51 Speaker 3: Thanks you, thank you for sharing your story, thank you for just who you are as a person. We could talk for hours, feel like, and I think we're going to have to at some other point. And I'm just cheering you on as I welcome you back to all the best parts hopefully of social media. And I just I really appreciate you. 01:08:15 Speaker 1: Thanks. Has been an awesome convent. I really appreciate you and what you're doing. We'll see soon. 01:08:21 Speaker 3: If, by the way, real quickly, if people want to get your poetry, yeah, if they want to here. I mean like you have these amazing like spoken words like where can they go? 01:08:38 Speaker 1: Find me on Instagram? Or Amy Leewis dot com is my website and then you can get my book Dangerous Country of Love and Marriage by Auckland University Press. It was published in New Zealand, but it is available in the States, so Amazon, Barnes, and Noble you can get it, I think anywhere. 01:08:59 Speaker 3: Now do you recommend we read orange Juice? Is it oranges? Or orange Juice? And rooftops? 01:09:04 Speaker 1: Orange Juice and Rooftops? I can't with good conscience recommend that you do, but I also can't stop you if you want to. That one will probably be the one that people will end up being like, oh, yeah, we're now we're getting that when I'm like, oh fantastic, that's the end process. Yeah and apologetic messy. 01:09:21 Speaker 2: So yeah, all right, Amy, thank you so much. 01:09:23 Speaker 1: We'll takun Yeah, Taxan, thanks John. 01:09:26 Speaker 3: Hey, you know, before I started recording this episode, I read something on Instagram and it was someone with a very quote unquote hot take right and said, oh, we're talking so much about regulating our nervous systems and you know, talking about Jesus Jesus that wants to do that, and we've lost sight that Jesus came for our sins, not for our emotions and our nervous system. 01:09:54 Speaker 2: And I just. 01:09:57 Speaker 3: It made me sad, because absolutely Jesus time for our sins, right, Absolutely, our biggest problem is the sin that separates us from God, and that the Christian life is not just about what is comfortable. But to say that Jesus didn't die to heal us, that he did not die to be lord over everything in our lives, that he didn't die for all the parts of us, and that we're supposed to cast our cares on him is just it's a false dichotomy. And so what Amy was saying there at the end I think is important, right that like there can be care and compassion for someone who is so dysregulated that they don't they can't even understand the truth of the gospel. Right. And so when I talk about the ministry that I've started in what I talked about early in the in the intro of the podcast is like I think, absolutely Jesus wants to heal all those parts of us that he died for, all those parts of us that he died so that we can have life everlasting, absolutely and that we can overcome death and sin. And yet to relegate the Gospel to simply a life insurance policy for the afterlife is. 01:11:25 Speaker 2: To ignore. 01:11:29 Speaker 3: What Jesus was talking about about the Kingdom of God and the renewal of all things here on earth. 01:11:36 Speaker 2: And I know that's so. 01:11:37 Speaker 3: I know that's like a little bit of a tangent, but it just what when when when I'm listening to what Amy is saying there at the end, I think it's important for us to realize and recognize that Jesus didn't just like die on the cross so that you could be left alone in your weeping and in your dysregulation and in your anxiety you'r OCD, your add your ADHD, and so that. 01:12:07 Speaker 2: You can just be left wandering like No. 01:12:11 Speaker 3: He is a God that moves close to you, and sometimes it's in just giving you that cosmic hug, and I think that's good and right and in the gospel. So hopefully you were encouraged by that episode and that talk with Amy. 01:12:28 Speaker 2: I absolutely love her. 01:12:29 Speaker 3: Go pick up her poetry and be encouraged through that as well. A special thank you to our partner Life audiolifeaudio dot com to check out some other great podcasts. 01:12:45 Speaker 2: I'm so thankful for you. 01:12:46 Speaker 3: If there's one thing in this episode that resonated with you, please share it. Please share it with someone so that they can be encouraged as well. We'll see you back here again next week.