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Speaker 1: I guess I had to decide if my relationship with

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Speaker 1: alcohol was the most important thing in my life, because

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Speaker 1: as long as it was in my life, whether I

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Speaker 1: wanted it to or not, it always had the potential

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Speaker 1: to come in and steal and shut down every other

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Speaker 1: thing I was doing and wanted. Whether I thought it

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Speaker 1: did or not, I'd say it was a pretty abusive relationship.

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Speaker 1: Alcohol is not a kind or fair lover.

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Speaker 2: Life audio.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 3: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 3: your home for real stories, radical vulner and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 3: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 3: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 2: But it's also a place of hope and healing.

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Speaker 3: I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became

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Speaker 3: an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today, I've found

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Speaker 3: sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,

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Speaker 3: I found Jesus.

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Speaker 2: My prayer is.

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Speaker 3: That as I interview people just like you and just

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Speaker 3: like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma,

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Speaker 3: faith and addiction recovery, you will find the peace that

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Speaker 3: is available to you through Christ on the other side

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Speaker 3: of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be,

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Speaker 3: because let's face it, we're all addicted to.

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Speaker 2: Something so welcome.

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Speaker 3: Let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks

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Speaker 3: like to be on this journey of messy sanctification.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that has continued to surprise and

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Speaker 3: also encourage me about doing this podcast is the amount

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Speaker 3: of people who have reached out to me that I

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Speaker 3: know or knew at one time, who I'm close with

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Speaker 3: or who I was close with, who have shared their

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Speaker 3: own story of some full on addiction, others of just

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Speaker 3: reimagining their relationship with a substance or food or something

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Speaker 3: like that. And today's guest is one of those people.

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Speaker 3: Her name is Amy Lee Wicks, and I met Amy

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Speaker 3: back in two thousand and five when or maybe two

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Speaker 3: thousand and six. She was my now wife's roommate in

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Speaker 3: college at the school that we were going to in

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Speaker 3: New York City, and she was this kind of deep

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Speaker 3: thinker yet free spirit, and just got to just got

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Speaker 3: to know her. I was actually talking to someone yesterday

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Speaker 3: and and I forgot that she had dated one of

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Speaker 3: my other really good friends in college as well and

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Speaker 3: after graduation. You know, it's just kind of one of

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Speaker 3: those things where you don't, you know, you just don't

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Speaker 3: keep up with certain people. And she had been really

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Speaker 3: good about not buying into the social media game and

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Speaker 3: been on social media for a long time, so didn't

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Speaker 3: wasn't even really able to follow her until she resurfaced,

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Speaker 3: if you will.

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Speaker 2: Over the last year.

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Speaker 3: And as I was sharing about my relationship with el

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Speaker 3: and how that changed and just what it did to me,

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Speaker 3: she messaged me and let me know that she had

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Speaker 3: a very similar story, and so I immediately was like,

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Speaker 3: let's talk about that. And that is the conversation you

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Speaker 3: are about to hear. And boy, I am so excited

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Speaker 3: for you to hear this one because I think Amy

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Speaker 3: offers a vision of someone that we haven't maybe had

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Speaker 3: on the podcast yet. She's she's a mom. Have we

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Speaker 3: had moms, Yes, But I just once you start listening

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Speaker 3: to the conversation, you'll see how unique and special and

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Speaker 3: just why I love Amy so much. And so I

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Speaker 3: think this conversation is really good. It's it's it's like

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Speaker 3: I said, it's deep. Amy is a poet. She has

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Speaker 3: become a doctor or got her PhD. And she is

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Speaker 3: someone who just has a way with words. And so

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Speaker 3: we'll talk about her poetry. We'll talk about how her

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Speaker 3: alcohol journey inspired some of her poetry. She has two

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Speaker 3: poetry books that are linked in the show notes that

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Speaker 3: you can get as well. And so I'm just excited

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Speaker 3: about this conversation and for her to talk about what

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Speaker 3: led to her finally realizing, Hey, I need to give

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Speaker 3: alcohol up for good. And this is after she had

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Speaker 3: taken multi a multi year break from alcohol. And what

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Speaker 3: I think is really important about that aspect that you're

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Speaker 3: about to hear is that it wasn't what she realized

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Speaker 3: is that even though she was on a quote unquote

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Speaker 3: break from alcohol for a very long time, she realized

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Speaker 3: just the place that occupied in her life and her thoughts.

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Speaker 3: So I'm really excited for this conversation with Amy. Before

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Speaker 3: we get there, I just want to remind you that

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Speaker 3: a you can watch this podcast at the Veritas Daily

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Speaker 3: dot com. Paign supporters have an opportunity to watch every podcast.

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Speaker 3: And then second, I've started a ministry based on the

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Speaker 3: work in Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic the book as

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Speaker 3: well as this podcast and so many the so many

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Speaker 3: people who have reached out and have been in need

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Speaker 3: of resources. Just made a big announcement yesterday that we

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Speaker 3: have signed a deal with right Now Media, one of

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Speaker 3: the biggest Christian media organizations, and we will be doing

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Speaker 3: a video series based on the book that will come

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Speaker 3: out this fall. And so you can go to Veritasrecovery

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Speaker 3: dot org, veritasrecovery dot org and see all that we

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Speaker 3: are doing, the resources that we have available now what

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Speaker 3: our vision is to create more and if you want

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Speaker 3: to take advantage of some of those, I would be honored.

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Speaker 3: And you know, hey, listen, if there's some way you

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Speaker 3: want to support and can support, would.

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Speaker 2: Love to have you as well.

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Speaker 3: So, without further ado, Amy Lee Wicks, Amy, it is

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Speaker 3: so good to see you, to hear you. It's been

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Speaker 3: we were talking just before we started, it's been like

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Speaker 3: sixteen years since I, like some people like you have

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Speaker 3: a conversation with and you're like, well, it's been sixteen

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Speaker 3: years since we've seen each other, Like I think it's

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Speaker 3: literally been sixteen years since we've even had a conversation.

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Speaker 3: And then you reached out as I started sharing some

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Speaker 3: stuff about my own journey and basically were like, hey, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so I kind of have a story, Like you gotta

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Speaker 3: be kidding me.

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Speaker 1: This is like we got to talk. So welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Thanks so much for having me, John. It's

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Speaker 1: awesome to see you reconnect and also to just get

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Speaker 1: to be a little part of what you're doing. I

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Speaker 1: think it's amazing, really good work.

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Speaker 3: Well it's funny because I think when when we went

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Speaker 3: to college together, I would have said, obviously you were

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Speaker 3: someone who would become a writer. You're so creative. You

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Speaker 3: were writing back then, just very creatively. I would have

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Speaker 3: quite have said that I would be a writer. But

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Speaker 3: now like here we are, and and to see, like

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Speaker 3: to just see where you are today not just Amy,

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Speaker 3: who I know is like Amy Culor but that's not

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Speaker 3: your name now, but now you're like doctor Amy Lee

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Speaker 3: wicks And with a doctorate in creative writing. And I'm like,

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Speaker 3: holy cow, yeah that makes so much sense. Doesn't make

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Speaker 3: sense for me necessarily be or it makes sense for

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Speaker 3: you to be a writer.

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Speaker 1: That's funny. I would have definitely said I would have

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Speaker 1: said you would have been a writer, but you would

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Speaker 1: have had your own TV show, because I don't think

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Speaker 1: podcasting was like a thing then, So I wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: known the podcast, but I would have been like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: John's going to be interviewing people and putting his stuff

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Speaker 1: out there, and people are going to be like, where's John?

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Speaker 1: What is he saying about this? That would have been

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Speaker 1: that would have that would have been what I would

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Speaker 1: have dialed from college.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, so kind of in that in that front,

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Speaker 3: like I had you pegged, at least as you know,

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Speaker 3: a creative writer, like what did life in a sense

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Speaker 3: before we kind of get to the degritty, but you know,

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Speaker 3: you were telling me a little bit, but your life

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Speaker 3: took you, Like give me kind of a recap of

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Speaker 3: where you were even just like physically you went from

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Speaker 3: New York City where we met, California, and then you

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Speaker 3: were in New Zealand for a while and now you're

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Speaker 3: back in California. Like, give me just kind of the

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Speaker 3: synopsis of how you got back to where you are today.

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Speaker 1: Okay, cool, that's a great question and it lets me

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Speaker 1: wander down that memory. So this is this is fun.

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Speaker 1: So we met, I mean, full disclosure, we met because

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Speaker 1: you were dating my roommate in college. In New York City,

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Speaker 1: who is now your wife, which is amazing, right, And

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Speaker 1: I'm from Staten Island, So even though I'm from Staten Island,

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Speaker 1: Manhattan felt like another world and we adjusted to that together.

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Speaker 1: Finished Kings, I stayed in New York.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry people don't realize that.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize that when I moved to New York City,

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Speaker 3: I had only been I've only been to Staten Island

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Speaker 3: like a hanfl It feels like a whole different universe.

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Speaker 3: Staten Island did not feel like what you think of

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Speaker 3: as New York City. It's so interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when you live in Staten Island, you say I'm

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Speaker 1: going to the city even though you're in one of

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Speaker 1: the boroughs. It's yeah, And I'm from Staten Island. And

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Speaker 1: then we moved upstate when I was a kid for

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Speaker 1: my dad to pastor at church. So but my heart

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Speaker 1: since I was like five, was like, I will be

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Speaker 1: in the city where I go to see Broadway shows

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Speaker 1: with Raphael, Like that's where I'm going back. And then yeah,

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Speaker 1: I finished Kings and I went to a couple of

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Speaker 1: my professors and was like, I think I want to

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Speaker 1: pursue this writing thing, and They were so lovely and

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Speaker 1: kind and also really cautionary, I think because they'd read

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Speaker 1: some of my poems that were very confessional and had

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Speaker 1: alcoholism in them at an early twenties, and they were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe take a couple of classes and see see if

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Speaker 1: you want to be putting your stuff out there or

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Speaker 1: if you more want to be studying literature. And so

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Speaker 1: I took some classes at City College and ended up

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Speaker 1: doing a second bachelor's there because I had enough credits

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Speaker 1: to work that out and was like, yep, nope, this

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Speaker 1: is what I want to do. So then I went

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Speaker 1: to the New School, also in Manhattan, and I did

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Speaker 1: my MFA there and that was when we get into

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Speaker 1: the nitty gritty. There was an interesting intersection when you

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Speaker 1: push against something. So at Kings, I felt like I

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Speaker 1: was always pushing against the boundaries artistically and in life.

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Speaker 1: I was just like, yeah, I need more space. And

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Speaker 1: then at the New School, I found myself craving structure

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Speaker 1: and form and kind of rhythms and I guess something

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Speaker 1: more sustainable for my life. And then when I was

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Speaker 1: finishing up at the New School, David Lehman was my advisor.

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Speaker 1: He is a genius he's the guy that put together

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Speaker 1: the Best American Poetry series. And I was semi day

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Speaker 1: talking to the guy that would become my husband, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, where would you go if you

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Speaker 1: could go anywhere? And he said I'd go back to

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Speaker 1: New Zealand. And I said why and he said, you'd

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Speaker 1: have to find out for yourself. And I took that

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Speaker 1: kind of as an invitation, like this mysterious man is

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Speaker 1: telling me to go to New Zealand. So I studied

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Speaker 1: New Zealand literature at the New School. And David Lehman

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Speaker 1: was like, you've got to go there and find out

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Speaker 1: about more like you've studied it here, but you have

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Speaker 1: to go there and see what the work is about.

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Speaker 1: And I was studying a poet who was an alcoholic.

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Speaker 1: He called himself a dry drunk. Even though he was

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Speaker 1: sober for most of his later adult life, he's still

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Speaker 1: really held a lot of his poetry references that as

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Speaker 1: kind of this this thing that he both overcame and

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Speaker 1: still wrestled with for his adult life. And that's whoy

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Speaker 1: I studied for my PhD. Was James K. Baxter. He

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Speaker 1: was kind of like a bright star in the constellation

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Speaker 1: of all the writers I was studying, and yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I finished the new school. I ended up getting engaged

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Speaker 1: and married in like two weeks. We rode motorcycles from

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Speaker 1: New York City to California, and then we rode up

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Speaker 1: the coast and we landed in reading. And then I

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Speaker 1: got accepted into the PhD program. So we sold our

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Speaker 1: motorcycles and flew to New Zealand and lived there. I

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Speaker 1: was there for about six years, and then in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: my husband got offered a job. I lost my job

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Speaker 1: because I got a bad brain injury, and I came

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Speaker 1: back to reading and he worked and I painted and

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Speaker 1: sat in a dark room for months, and then I

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Speaker 1: gradually got better, and then unexpectedly got better, and then

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Speaker 1: I sort of said yes to my heart, the big

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Speaker 1: part of my heart that has had been acting and

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Speaker 1: performing since I was a little kid. And I stepped

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Speaker 1: into a role at a small arts conservatory teaching drama

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Speaker 1: and then becoming the head of drama and training actors

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Speaker 1: and crawling on the floor and doing all that fun stuff.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I've been doing for the last four years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and now over're here.

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Speaker 3: And so here's what's so interesting is you know, I

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Speaker 3: think if you're listening to this, you're listening to Amy,

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Speaker 3: and you know, like she's soft spoken, and but like

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Speaker 3: I don't remember you that way, like I remember you

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Speaker 3: even more so just like you know, it's just so

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Speaker 3: interesting to see how you've grown and changed. And I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you're looking at me and you're like, well you

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Speaker 3: had hair when I need Yeah, I did I and

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Speaker 3: now I'm bald. But but the so here you are

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Speaker 3: like now pursuing you know, this love.

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Speaker 2: Of acting.

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Speaker 3: And I would say, what's so funny about social media?

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Speaker 3: There's obviously a dark side, there's obviously an addictive side,

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Speaker 3: there's like we're constantly budding up against that. But I

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Speaker 3: think what is so interesting is the way that we

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Speaker 3: were able to reconnect is you. I think you can

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Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you kind

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Speaker 3: of got to this point where you're like I want

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Speaker 3: to act full time or that's like what I want

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Speaker 3: to pursue, Like I kind of need some sort of

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Speaker 3: a social media presence and or at least this is

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Speaker 3: part of it. And so you like restarted your Instagram

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Speaker 3: and I see you and I'm like I'm watching Amy,

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Speaker 3: like quote Shakespeare and recite her poems and I'm like, oh.

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Speaker 2: My gosh, this is awesome. I get to reconnect.

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Speaker 3: But like you, you were off social media. I think, like

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Speaker 3: for as long as I like a better part of

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Speaker 3: the last sixteen years.

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Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, it was about eleven years. So this was

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Speaker 1: the first time I like opened that box and stepped

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Speaker 1: in and yeah, exactly what you said. It's both like

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Speaker 1: a maze and it's also insane, and it's been wild

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Speaker 1: to see stories didn't exist eleven years ago on Instagram. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so just navigating that world, but also seeing yeah,

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Speaker 1: people like yourself, other people that I went to school

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Speaker 1: with or grad school with who I haven't spoken with

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Speaker 1: or connected with, and all of a sudden, I'm just

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Speaker 1: seeing these little snippets of people's lives. And also there

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Speaker 1: seems to be a trend, if I can call it

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Speaker 1: a trend, of like people that are about our age

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Speaker 1: are starting to unravel pain and trauma in a way

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Speaker 1: that's really beautiful and that I think would have been

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Speaker 1: non existent or there would we wouldn't have had language

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Speaker 1: for it, maybe largely in the circles that I was

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Speaker 1: aware of, Like there was there was pain, but my

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Speaker 1: pain usually geared toward like rebellion or self medication. I

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Speaker 1: think other kind of pain was, Yeah, it would have

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Speaker 1: been stuffed down or silenced, and now there seems to

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Speaker 1: be this kind of opening about it.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it's very interesting. What is what has been

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Speaker 3: your biggest because you're it's it's interesting. It's like you're

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Speaker 3: coming into this world of social media. You're stepping into it,

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Speaker 3: and in some ways I'm kind of like watching you too,

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Speaker 3: Like I'm watching like how you're how you're interacting with it,

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Speaker 3: you know, like what has been your biggest takeaway? And

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Speaker 3: I know you just shared, you know what you shared,

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Speaker 3: maybe that's it, But what has been your biggest way?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's.

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Speaker 3: Almost like you've emerged from this you could say this

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Speaker 3: this bunker if you will, of no social media, and

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Speaker 3: then I can only imagine the flood of like you're like,

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Speaker 3: holy crap, this is like what has been surprising for you?

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Speaker 1: I think the beauty and the pain of other people

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Speaker 1: worlds and being like oh wow, this time that I

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Speaker 1: was in my own silent world or silent in the

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Speaker 1: sense of not being on social media, I was experiencing

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Speaker 1: things and the thought of coming into social media, I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, I don't. I don't look or

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Speaker 1: sound ready to myself. I feel like I had I

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Speaker 1: would have wanted to present from a platform or from

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Speaker 1: a place of having things figured out, but instead I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm coming in on a tide of like

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Speaker 1: I will be quoting Shakespeare while I run out to

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Speaker 1: cool down my car to put baby in it, because

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Speaker 1: I actually don't have time or capacity to polish and

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Speaker 1: set things up. And I thought that would have been

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Speaker 1: a real disadvantage. But the feedback I keep getting is

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Speaker 1: it's actually refreshing, because I guess because of so much

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Speaker 1: AI things are perfect and polished and imagined. But life

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Speaker 1: that's that's the edge that life has. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's the edge that that I've found becoming a mom,

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Speaker 1: as well as like the messiness that's that overtakes the

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Speaker 1: wildness that overtakes any sense of order and like any

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Speaker 1: sense of having laundry folded or dishes always done. It's

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Speaker 1: like there is this driving life force that is way

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Speaker 1: messier and less containable. And I think coming onto social

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Speaker 1: media and realizing like I can either embrace that and

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Speaker 1: then come on and just be there, or I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna post one thing like every year when I get

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Speaker 1: ready to go to a Christmas party, I.

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Speaker 3: Don't yeah, right, exactly exactly, well, And I didn't mean

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Speaker 3: to make it sound like you're living in it. You

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Speaker 3: weren't living in a bunker, like obviously you were a

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Speaker 3: social media but I can museum.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit of a bunker. It's a good well,

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Speaker 1: it's a beautiful bunker.

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Speaker 3: I know someone from New Zealand and they say that, dude.

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Speaker 3: But you you mentioned something there that I think is

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Speaker 3: a really good segue. And so you talked about self medicating.

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Speaker 3: And what's interesting too, is even just something you said

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Speaker 3: even before that that I picked up on was that

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Speaker 3: you had you had started writing poetry in your early

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Speaker 3: twenties that related to alcohol, which I had no idea,

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Speaker 3: right like like that would have put me, or that

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Speaker 3: would have put us around the time of knowing each other,

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Speaker 3: I believe, And I had no idea.

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Speaker 2: I am like Amy's you.

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Speaker 3: Know, the quintessential overused phrase like Amy's a free spirit.

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Speaker 3: Like I get that, you know, but I never would

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Speaker 3: have thought like you were kind of wrestling with with something.

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Speaker 3: So take us, we said, we get into the Nindy gritty.

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Speaker 3: I just love for you to walk me through and

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Speaker 3: walk us through your story of your relationship with alcohol.

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Speaker 3: Where it started, how it started you're writing about it,

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Speaker 3: and then where you realize I can't do this anymore.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this, okay.

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Speaker 1: I My first taste of alcohol, I think was at

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Speaker 1: like a cousin's party when I was a little kid.

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Speaker 1: I thought I was grabbing my root beer, but I

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Speaker 1: grabbed someone's beer and it was vile. I was probably

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Speaker 1: like four. I have lots of early memories, and I

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Speaker 1: remember being like, oh, and then I mean, when I

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Speaker 1: was in like fourth grade, I remember a friend's uncle

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Speaker 1: put vodka in our milkshake because she was like, come on,

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Speaker 1: this would be great. And I remember tasting and be like,

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Speaker 1: I don't really like this. But I mean, it's so

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Speaker 1: strange to think about it now, especially having a kid,

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Speaker 1: and being like I was so little and that was

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Speaker 1: that existed, and stealing her grandma's beers I mean, like

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Speaker 1: really little fourth grade, not often, but like it was

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Speaker 1: just one of the things you did when you were

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Speaker 1: at sleepovers and things like that. And it's funny because

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Speaker 1: my parents were very strict and I was allowed to

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Speaker 1: go to very few people's homes, and even in that

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Speaker 1: there was still that element, which is it's sort of

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Speaker 1: a strange draw you think for a kid. And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like I was like I love alcohol, I want alcohol.

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Speaker 1: It was just that's just my that was my introduction. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I probably I have probably there's probably a pattern

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Speaker 1: of stopping drinking and becoming a good girl, or trying

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Speaker 1: to please either my parents or church or myself or

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Speaker 1: my own standards and then swinging the other way for

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Speaker 1: a bit. So in high school, I actually didn't I

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Speaker 1: didn't drink, I didn't do any any drugs or kind of.

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Speaker 2: I had.

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Speaker 1: I had been found sneaking out when I was thirteen

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Speaker 1: or fourteen, and it was not a good situation and

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Speaker 1: the police were involved and my parents had to come

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Speaker 1: and get me. And it was this mortifying experience that

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Speaker 1: turned my summer into like I was like, I am

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Speaker 1: becoming a nun. And so I sort of did. For

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Speaker 1: high school for the next couple of years, I like hyperachieved.

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Speaker 1: I was president of my class, I was prom queen,

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Speaker 1: I was president of the National Honor Society. I was

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Speaker 1: like in all of the clubs, I could be in

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Speaker 1: and I was sort of just I would just go

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Speaker 1: and I was alive. I felt alive, I was doing theater.

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Speaker 1: I really loved my life. But by senior year, I

400
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Speaker 1: had this kind of tick over into disenchantment with everything.

401
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: Everything felt small, I felt stuck. I cut off all

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Speaker 1: my hair. I had worked at a summer camp and

403
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 1: saw children experiencing trauma. So I had these like these

404
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: kind of moments that were shaping me and moving me,

405
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: I guess into who I would later become. I graduated

406
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Speaker 1: from high school, and I did classes while I was

407
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: in high school at a community college and finished those up,

408
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: and then I moved to King's which is where we

409
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 1: went to the same school in Manhattan, and I was

410
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: in I would say, just an unhealthy, codependent relationship for

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Speaker 1: the first year of that. And that was when I

412
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: was roomates with your wife. And my roommates were so

413
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: sweet and kind, and I think they secretly tried to

414
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: plan interventions for me and I just I just fell

415
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: asleep crying most nights and was working like forty hours

416
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: a week while in school full time. I wasn't alcohol

417
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: wasn't really a part of my life. But I was

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Speaker 1: at mister Chow's. Weren't you and Stephanie working at mister Chow?

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00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: So I was at Republic, Stephanie was at Yeah, I

420
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: was at Republic. So right in Union Square, fast paced

421
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: and it's probably similar, probably similar vibe maybe, but yeah,

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00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: I was at Republic for eight years.

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Speaker 3: I was at that same way. I remember, Yes, Okay,

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00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 3: this is so weird. It's like it's like, you know how,

425
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 3: like you smell something and it brings me back, like

426
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 3: I hear your voice, I see your face, and it's

427
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 3: like bringing these random memories black. It's just so crazy,

428
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 3: and so, yes, you were. I remember you were there

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00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: for and you were always working, and I can remember that.

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Speaker 3: I won't say his name, but those pre K years

431
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: and post K years or you know, or breakup years,

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Speaker 3: I should say yes, yeah, pre Amy and then post

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Speaker 3: Amy for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And I think I can look back and

435
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: see like a lot of that was partially because I

436
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: was trying to contain and do my duty towards God

437
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: and family as best my eighteen year old brain and

438
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: self understood it, and so I was just spinning myself,

439
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: you know. And then I came back after that first

440
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: summer I had broken off an engagement and I sort

441
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: of was like, I am young and I'm free. Yes,

442
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: And then I went out dancing like three nights a week,

443
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: and I still I wasn't drinking. I didn't need alcohol.

444
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: I really genuinely just was like, I just that Whitney

445
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: Houston song man. I wanted to dance with somebody, yeah,

446
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: all day, every day. And I kind of started slacking

447
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 1: in my classes. For the first time. I was getting by,

448
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: but I stopped performing and I started kind of trying

449
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: to just to have fun and enjoy. And I think

450
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: I left the country for the first time and went

451
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: to Paris with one of my best childhood friends and

452
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: her twin sister and there and then I took a

453
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: trip to see a roommate and there was a real

454
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: drinking culture. When I went to see my former French

455
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: exchange student who I adored, Cecil, and I went to

456
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,719
Speaker 1: a show and I smoked my first sixte and I

457
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: drank wine. And I remember sitting at Christmas table and

458
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: her family were like they were. They would ask I

459
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: didn't speak any French, and they would just be like,

460
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: do you want more? And I'd be like, poor cua pa,

461
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: like why not? And I remember drinking like many glasses

462
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: of wine and just having fun and feeling icky the

463
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: next day, but not thinking much of it. But on

464
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: my return to New York, I think alcohol just kind

465
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: of like crept up. I had no intentions. I didn't

466
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: think I was self medicating. I thought I would just

467
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: have drinks at a party or glasses of wine. And

468
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: then and then I moved in. I moved out of

469
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: college housing in with someone else, and I remember the

470
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: the person I lived with had a bottle of rum.

471
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: It was like just a big bottle of rum. And

472
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: we were just going to watch a movie and I

473
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 1: was I think I was twenty at this point, so

474
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: I'm pretty young, I mean, and I was just going

475
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: to watch a movie and I was like, oh, yeah,

476
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: I'll have some rum and maybe white cheddar cheese. It's

477
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: because that was my favorite snack. And I remember going

478
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: in the kitchen and I filled up a mug, like

479
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: just filled it up to the top and drank the

480
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: whole thing. And then I went and filled it again.

481
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: And I don't remember anything else, but when I woke

482
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: up in the morning, I had somehow made it to

483
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: my bed and I woke up in the morning and

484
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: there was like vomit all on the walls around me,

485
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: and I realized like I had drank myself into a

486
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: blackout and an accident and had thrown up everywhere, and

487
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: was like it was this strange, like hah, like this

488
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: thing that happened to me, it felt like and that

489
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: probably was the beginning of that thing happening to me,

490
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: which isn't what happened, but that was the feeling like, oh,

491
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: that would happen more and more frequently, not always, but

492
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: I noticed that as I would socialize and as I

493
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: would go to events, like really classy events, if there

494
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: was wine and cheese, I just never wanted like a

495
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: glass of wine. I wanted like a bottle and a half.

496
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: And people would be like, we should just get a

497
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: glass of wine, and I always just I don't know

498
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: where it came from. I don't know who gave me

499
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: that idea, but in my head I thought, like, a

500
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: glass of wine is like it's a code word, right

501
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: for like anything could happen, and that that was sort

502
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: of just how it would be. I'd go to a

503
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: church event and there'd be wine, and I'd be like sweet,

504
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: and everybody would have left and I'd be like sitting

505
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: out on the curb drinking a bottle of wine in

506
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: a dress with my shoes off, Like where am I what?

507
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: You know? And so it's strange because I think probably

508
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: people that went to school with me thought like, oh,

509
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,479
Speaker 1: Amy's crazy, she goes out dancing, But I was like

510
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: I was. Actually those were like the sober fun trying

511
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: to be young and experience I think freedom and healing

512
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: with loud music and getting to move and sweat, and

513
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: it was it was the It was when I tried

514
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: to insert myself into like normal events where there would

515
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: be alcohol, that I would find myself drinking a lot

516
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: more than my roommates or my friends. And and then by.

517
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: The way, yeah, real quickly, I think it's so and

518
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: you said, you said some stuff there that is and

519
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: I think it's hard for some people to fathom, maybe

520
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: who are listening to this, especially if you're like I'm

521
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 3: in Dallas now, like if you're in this kind of

522
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 3: Bible belt area. But I actually talk about this in

523
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: the book that's coming out to that that there was

524
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 3: when I, you know, so Brett and I got married.

525
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: We lived in Denver for a year and then we

526
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: moved back to the city for a couple of years,

527
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: and that's where you know, I started. There was just

528
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: some on unhealthy patterns that I started noticing. But part

529
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: of the unhealthy patterns were that, you know, you talked

530
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: about going to a church event or going to a

531
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: small group like when you're in New York City at

532
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: that time, at least for me, and now it sounds

533
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: like for you, it's like everyone was drinking wine everyone

534
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 3: like you brought it to small group, you brought it

535
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: to church, like it just was there. And I think

536
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: there's some people who listened to that, maybe they go

537
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: to some you know, small baptist Rician like I can't

538
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: imagine that, Yeah, but it was. It's interesting to me

539
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: that how prevalent that was there's and it was kind

540
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: of under this guise of like East Coast sophistication, maybe

541
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 3: a little bit like yeah, you just drink It's just

542
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: it's just a glass of wine. Right. But so it's

543
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 3: just it's funny to me that that's that's also a

544
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: part of my story, and it sounds like it's a

545
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: part of years that there was, at least for me

546
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: it was it was at least part of a desensitization

547
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 3: maybe not saying that people that that we're doing it,

548
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 3: we're handling it wrong or doing it wrong. But I

549
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 3: just it was part of my desensitization. I guess to

550
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: to that fact, I'm like, well, I mean I'm at church,

551
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: small group, like that's just normal.

552
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: Mh.

553
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: Was that like that upstate? Was that like that on

554
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: Staten Island?

555
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: Like what?

556
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: No?

557
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: No?

558
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: So I came from I mean conservative, fundamental, independent King

559
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: James only usually Baptist churches. So that's my upbringing, So

560
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: there would have been no alcohol in my home growing

561
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: up at all. It was a very like we were.

562
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: It was a clean, sober house, clean sober church. I

563
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: mean definitely heard beer referred to as satans you're on

564
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: more than one occasion in church. But because of that polarity,

565
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: because of it was just like a nothing thing. And

566
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: then being in a culture where people that I loved

567
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: and respected handled alcohol maturely and responsibly, and I wasn't

568
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: in some ways, I wasn't seeing the deprivation and chaos

569
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: or abuse that I saw growing up in other churches

570
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: that in these settings, and so I I think for me,

571
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: what happened and is I blindly assumed this is just

572
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 1: a thing like anything else, that if they're okay with it,

573
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: I'll be okay with it because I can just make

574
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: a decision. And I wasn't really prepared for the undertow

575
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: of alcohol in my life. I didn't expect it to

576
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: be so strong. I didn't expect I didn't think of

577
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: myself as an alcoholic ever until after I stopped drinking.

578
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: And I think a friend had like this little questionnaire

579
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: book and she's like, can I ask you some questions?

580
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: And I was like yeah, and I was answering, not

581
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: knowing what the context was, and she's like, okay, so

582
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: you had a real problem then, and I was like

583
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: did I I don't know. I didn't, are you sure?

584
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: And if I thought of like because I had a

585
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: season of sobriety that I thought was just going to

586
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: be a season, but I noticed in this season when

587
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: I thought like, Okay, all right, I'm going to do

588
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: this for three years and that's so long. But for

589
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: the first two years, I literally was like, I cannot

590
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: wait until I get to go drink when this is over.

591
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 3: And that was.

592
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: Really in my mind, was like, well, as soon as

593
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: this time is up, then it's my time again. And

594
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: I was like, who is that weird voice that is

595
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: like clawing for this thing that has never benefited me.

596
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: There's not been a point in my life where it's

597
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: given me more than it's taken. And so it probably

598
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 1: took two and a half years into what I thought

599
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: was a three year fast before I sort of really

600
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: had to come to a decision of like, oh, is

601
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: this something that I can is this something that I

602
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: believe will serve my life? Or do I say it's

603
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: just not for me? I just maybe it's just not

604
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: for me. And I felt angry about that because I

605
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: felt like, no, I can look around me and see

606
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: people having a good time, and I love a good

607
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: you know, noir, And what the this doesn't make any sense.

608
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm mature too, I should be able to handle this.

609
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was kind of a humbling thing to

610
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: be like, but I but I can't. And for me

611
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: in my life, it's not something that I it's not

612
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: something that I think will serve me well. And so

613
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future that that was that decision.

614
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 3: So take me back to You're in New York City, Like,

615
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 3: how do you go from that point in your life

616
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 3: where you're drinking outside on the curb when everyone else

617
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 3: is gone to the point where you realize, okay, I'm

618
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 3: going to give it up for three years.

619
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: What does that section of time look like?

620
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: So there were a few kind of blackout sections of drinking,

621
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: and then there was the long slow of I had

622
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: written a book and I had published it, and I

623
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: was running the slam poetry circuit, so I was performing

624
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: like three nights a week, so I would go and

625
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: work at Republic, and then I would go to these

626
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: poetry slams, thinking I'm going to go read a poem

627
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: and then leave, and then I would have spent most

628
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: of my tip money drinking on accident. I mean months

629
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: of this, like multiple times a week, being like, shoot,

630
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: I don't have money again, shoot where is it going?

631
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know where it's going. And a lot

632
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: of people would give me drinks as well, so I

633
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: would feel like, oh, bonus. But once someone gives you

634
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: a drink, you have to keep going, so then you anyway,

635
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: And somewhere in there I had started smoking as well.

636
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: I'd started smoking cigarettes and then I started smoking weed,

637
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: and then I had a really bad time, and then

638
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: I remember taking ecstasy and thinking like this doesn't feel

639
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: like me. But also there was this kind of hollow,

640
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: empty thing, and I hadn't stopped going to church. I mean, okay,

641
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: I did for a while, but I had come back

642
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: to the Lord and felt like I just couldn't get

643
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: a handle on things. So if I had a really

644
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: bad night of drinking or if I was doing drugs,

645
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: would I would text the guy that ran set up

646
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: at church for the early service and I'd be like,

647
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: I'll be there tomorrow to set up. And that was

648
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: how I did penance. I would get up hungover and

649
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: I would ride my bike for forty five minutes to

650
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: get there at like seven am and move heavy things

651
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: and sweat out the alcohol from the night before. And

652
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't really know why this is

653
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: the way that this is, but the pattern was getting

654
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: a little bit more strong. And then I think it

655
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: was like a night before Christmas or New Year's and

656
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: my parents were going to be visiting the city and

657
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: I had a night where I was drinking with someone

658
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: that I didn't want to be and I remember waking

659
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: up in the morning and was like, this, this is awful,

660
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: this is not me, this isn't my life. Simultaneously I

661
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: was attempting to really market my book and try to

662
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: figure out who I was as a writer, and my

663
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: drinking was getting in the way of that. And so

664
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: as I'm like searching for answers and ready for a change,

665
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: I walked into a church that was being planted on

666
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: a Wednesday night, and I heard, like the first five

667
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: minutes the pastor was preaching from the first book of Daniel,

668
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: first chapter of Daniel, and there's only one book of Daniel,

669
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: the first chapter, and he was talking about how Daniel

670
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't eat the king's wine or meat, and he was

671
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: given all understanding of dreams, prophecy, visions, basically, like all

672
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: the stuff I wanted to know. I wanted. I wanted

673
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: amuse for my writing. I wanted inspiration regularly. I wanted

674
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: to understand literature. I wanted to be able to engage

675
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: in culture. And my way of socializing and drinking wasn't

676
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: working because I would take a step forward socializing and

677
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: ten steps back by drinking. And I was like, maybe

678
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: I could try that, and so I started with thirty

679
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: days a thirty day fast, and it was it was brutal.

680
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: I cried a lot. I was not happy, but during

681
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: that time, I felt like I felt like I could

682
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: maybe commit to a three year fast from alcohol and meet.

683
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 2: I was going to do both.

684
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: I was going to do the King's Wine and meat

685
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: and yeah. And I started doing that, and I grumbled

686
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: and complained about it, but I was the one that

687
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: nobody told me to do it. This was just like

688
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 1: my own strategy for marketing success was to stop drinking

689
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: and see if I could get insight into literature. And

690
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: I noticed something. I noticed. I knew where I fell

691
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: asleep at night. I didn't have like as many memories missing.

692
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: I knew the people that I interacted with and what

693
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: we talked about. I would remember emotions that I felt

694
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: at social events or if someone embarrassed me or was

695
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: unkind to me, but I rarely remembered what I said

696
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: or what they said or where you know, like I

697
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: just had these patchy things. And I noticed that that

698
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: started to fade. And I noticed that I started to

699
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: feel pain, emotional pain more acutely, which was rough and

700
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: sent me on another necessary journey. But I would rather

701
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: be on the journey of feeling the pain believing that

702
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 1: there's a way to heal and integrate from that than

703
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: be on the journey that I was at where I

704
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: was just kind of spinning wildly and not worried about

705
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: whether I'd crash or not because it didn't.

706
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, can I ask you about that, because I think I.

707
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: Would say the same thing now, right.

708
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I stopped drinking, and you know, I tell

709
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 3: people I'm own as I'm like, it wasn't. It wasn't

710
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 3: roses and butterflies. Like I'm literally just like pacing my

711
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 3: house in my garage because I don't know what to

712
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 3: do with myself. I don't know how to sit with

713
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: myself and be with myself, you know. And I think

714
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people that hear that and they're like, well,

715
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: I don't want that, you know, like you're you're telling

716
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 3: me Amy that you'd rather be on this, like you'd

717
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 3: rather be feeling those emotions and do like no, I

718
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: want to drink those away, like I just I just

719
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: want to escape from this.

720
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: Why is that good news?

721
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 3: Like? Why is how do you explain to someone that, like, no,

722
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: I'm telling you it's going to be painful and yet

723
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: it's good.

724
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: How why?

725
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: I think Cause it's part of growing up, Like I

726
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: have a two year old now, and when I think

727
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: about like him and what I want him to experience, Like,

728
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: there's a huge part of me as a mom that's like,

729
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: I want you to be happy, I want you to

730
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: be safe, I want you to feel loved. And there's

731
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: another part that knows, if I prioritize safety, even of

732
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: your emotions, then I am cutting you off from life

733
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: because life hurts and life life is full of beauty

734
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: and joy, but it's also full of contrast. There are

735
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: painful elements to being alive, and they help you become

736
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: more yourself when you can be in them, and it's

737
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: there's no shame on trying to escape them. Your your

738
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: nervous system, your your heart and body are doing their

739
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: very best to try to hedge their bets for you.

740
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: And so I remember there was a long season where

741
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: I was smoking a lot and it was because I

742
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: was I was actually sick. I had mono and I

743
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: was dealing with limes disease. But I talked to this

744
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: like natural path doctor and she was like, well, your

745
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: body's actually just reaching for something to get you through

746
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: the next five minutes because you're going so fast that

747
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, she's not going to rest and she doesn't.

748
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: She's not going to go out and shed. Maybe she

749
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: can't afford bone broth. So we'll just give her five minutes.

750
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: We'll just give her another pot of coffee. And I

751
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: think I think saying yes to the to that dry

752
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: space that's uncomfortable is saying yes to ultimately fullness and integration.

753
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 1: It's not saying it's going to be painful and hard forever.

754
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: It's saying, if you want to see all of the colors,

755
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: then you get to see black and white and red

756
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: and purple and green. But you can't you can't decide

757
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: I don't like that color, so we have to take

758
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 1: that one out. It's like, no, they're all of the colors,

759
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: all of the shapes, all of the things that is life.

760
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: That's kind of like yeah, as a mom, when I

761
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: think about for my son, but then also for myself,

762
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: I want fullness of life. And I think I don't

763
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: want to be so spiritually focused that I'm disconnected from

764
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: the pain of reality. And I don't want to be

765
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,479
Speaker 1: so stuck in the pain of my reality that I'm

766
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: unable to be present. There are two sides of the

767
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: same coin that like frenzied alcoholism, and sort of stoic purity.

768
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: I feel like walking out life and being human. That's

769
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 1: a mountain I'm willing to die on. Yeah.

770
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think alcohol is not a precision

771
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 3: numbing agent, you know, like like that's good, you take it,

772
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 3: and it's like it's not gonna it will, at least

773
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: for me, it will help me escape those thoughts or

774
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 3: being with myself. Yes, but it's it does so much more.

775
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 3: It numbs so much more. And I think I love

776
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 3: that you said about colors because I I write this

777
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 3: that once, once I stopped drinking, I was like I

778
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 3: could you know, it was like I could I could

779
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 3: taste colors, you know, I could see, I could see sound,

780
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Like it was just like

781
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: my senses were just like, holy crap, like this is

782
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 3: I've been numbing for so long that I didn't realize.

783
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 3: You know, I made the joke about coming out of

784
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: a bunker earlier. It's like like coming out of a

785
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: bunker and emerging and be like, oh wow, okay, did you.

786
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: Did you ever.

787
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: Figure out in a sense what what was it that

788
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 3: you were? And maybe it wasn't quite like this, but

789
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 3: what was it that you were? Trying to numb or

790
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: what was it that you were trying to do with

791
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: the alcohol, because you you can go back.

792
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: You had said that like you did feel.

793
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: Alive when you were dancing and sweating, and like I

794
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 3: remember that, you know, and is it just that it

795
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 3: just kind of creeped in there and said, well, you

796
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: can have more of that if you have me as

797
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: an alcohol or what was it?

798
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: What was that draw for you?

799
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: So one of our professors, doctor Innis doctor in as

800
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: well is Republic and he talked about the different types

801
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: of people the Felo's philosophers the most the warrior spirits

802
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: and arrows like and we hear arrows, which is where

803
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: the word erotic comes from when we think of love

804
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 1: and passion and sensuality. But he talked about arrows being

805
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: this drive for newness, for beauty. You would go to

806
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: the ends of the world to try a new food,

807
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: this desire to kind of partake. I guess to feast.

808
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: And I think there was there was something in me

809
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: that like had I thought I was like hungry enough

810
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: that I could eat the whole world. And when I

811
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: tried alcohol that felt like more like it just there

812
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 1: was just like a more button in me that got

813
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: pushed and I didn't think that I was trying to

814
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: have more fun or become a different person or hide

815
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: or heal from pain. I just thought I want I

816
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: just I want this. This, This is great. I don't

817
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 1: like how I feel the next day, but that can't

818
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: be related to this thing that is fun and part

819
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: of feasts and part of exploring and traveling, and in

820
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: a lot of ways that felt like part of the

821
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: social thing.

822
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: But it.

823
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if if genetically because alcoholism ran in

824
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: my family that it it sort of snuck up on me.

825
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: But I would say my intent with alcohol was to

826
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: not miss out on life. I never wanted. I always

827
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: wanted as much life as I could have. And Ronald

828
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: Rallheiser talks about like he describes Princess di As as

829
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 1: being someone who like would move toward these this outpouring

830
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: of love, and she go and do all of these

831
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: benefits and fundraisers and things, and then she would be

832
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: on boat with people partying and having fun, and how

833
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: she stood like in the center of both worlds. And

834
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: then Mother Teresa was like purely the outpouring of her

835
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: fire toward the poor. And then Janis Joplin, like overdosed

836
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: on life. They would say. So, I think when I

837
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: thought of like my fire or this my spirituality is

838
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: a fire, I just didn't understand how to use what

839
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: was in me. And so when you pour gasoline or

840
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: in my case, alcohol in that fire, it it took

841
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: on a life of its own. Rather than me kind

842
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: of being like, oh, I'm going to use this thing,

843
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: this secret thing, it was more of like whoa, there

844
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: it goes. And when I figured out that I could

845
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: live without it, then I could start to cultivate that

846
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: fire and put it toward things that were more true

847
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: to what was actually in my heart to do.

848
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 3: So you referenced that you had started writing about this,

849
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: this relationship or you know, with alcohol in college.

850
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: What were you writing? Like? What were you saying about it?

851
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: Then?

852
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 2: How are you speaking about it?

853
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: Yeah? So I had my first book was published on

854
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: my twenty first birthday. It's called Orange Juice and Rooftops.

855
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: A few loving, well meaning professors encouraged me to not

856
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: publish it, and I was like, you guys are haters.

857
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: Here we go. I got a publishing contract, so I

858
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: published it, and there's a lot of pain, Like I

859
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: actually was visiting my dad recently and saw the book

860
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: on a shelf, which I'm shocked at his level of

861
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: love and care that he would have my book on

862
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: his shelf, because it's that book is filled with pain

863
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: and kind of marks of someone who struggles with alcoholism.

864
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: I talked about having a lot of rum for lunch

865
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: and feeling funny, the sensations in my body of numbness

866
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: and how I enjoyed them. I talked about meeting strangers.

867
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: It was kind of like the beginning, the beginning of

868
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: time melting in me, kind of like just being like, oh,

869
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: this is this chemical reaction between me and alcohol. And

870
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: then so that book Orange Juice and Rooftops is really

871
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: a kind of early twenties while I'm still drinking, messy

872
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: memoir ish but also grandized version of different parts of

873
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: me at different times where alcohol was involved. And I

874
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: told you that I really drove to kind of market

875
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: I pushed. I was doing the work, I was tiring

876
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 1: myself out. Well. Fast forward years later in New Zealand,

877
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: I had done my three year fast and decided I'd

878
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: be sober. And then I was doing a PhD. And

879
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: my life looked so different. I lived Somewhere Beautiful had

880
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: rhythms for my writing, rather than the kind of manic

881
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: scrawling and filling papers and pulling receipts together. This was like,

882
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: I write every day. I write at the same time

883
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: every day. It's a little bit boring. I teach other

884
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: people to write. I spend time with them. We cultivate

885
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: poetry together. I volunteer my time here. I help do

886
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: these things. And I had a publisher pursue me. I

887
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 1: had the book came together in a way that felt

888
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: more like a gallery and less like a stack of

889
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: here you know, yes, And my reflections back were like, oh,

890
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: I can see my hunger and my need, but I

891
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 1: needed care and I needed some direction.

892
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 3: I think, by the way, that's what I'm picking up

893
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 3: on right. Like I talked about that early, just when

894
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 3: we started the interview, like Amy. That I knew as

895
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 3: Amy was this, you know, free spirit. And that's not

896
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 3: to say you're not. I think you're to use your

897
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 3: own words, you're more mature free spirit, but it is like, yeah,

898
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 3: I hear I even I can even just hear that

899
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 3: right that, Like it went from from more of a

900
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,479
Speaker 3: manic to more of a methodical to use alliteration because

901
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 3: I love a literation.

902
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: You know that, and you can see that in you.

903
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: So when you what were you saying? You know?

904
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 3: I think there's a whole chapter of my book that

905
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 3: I talk about like how does this happen?

906
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: Right?

907
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 3: Like how can you be the Christian that becomes an alcoholic?

908
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 3: And I mean you've hit on that to a certain extent.

909
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 3: But I'm always curious what people like us are telling

910
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 3: ourselves during these stages where I know, I think at

911
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 3: times I would have these kind of out of body

912
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 3: experiences where I'm looking down on myself and I'm like,

913
00:53:58,880 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 3: what are you doing?

914
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: You know?

915
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 3: And by drink a point, you know, But like in

916
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 3: those moments, like the moment you wake up and you

917
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 3: know there's vomit all over or you know you've blacked out,

918
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 3: what are you telling yourself as it relates to the

919
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 3: idea of I mean, we grew up in the church.

920
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 3: We know this isn't like the flourishing life necessarily that's

921
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 3: been promised to us. Like we're told not to do this,

922
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 3: but we do it. What are you telling yourself, either

923
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 3: consciously or subconsciously, to say this is okay, We'll be

924
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 3: right back after this.

925
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: I think I came to a conflict point where I

926
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: realized a lot of what I had seen in the

927
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: churches that I had grown up in. There was a

928
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: lot of There was a lot of abuse. There were

929
00:54:58,080 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: a lot of children being hurt. There were a lot

930
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: of really dark things, people taking advantage of positions that

931
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 1: they were in that I saw and experienced as a child.

932
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: But just we just were in church whenever the doors

933
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: were open, whatever church we went to, we were there

934
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 1: Sunday morning, Sunday night, Thursday night Bible study, sometimes Wednesday

935
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 1: night Bible study. And my family was faithful to that.

936
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: Like that was like we get dressed, we go to church,

937
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: we do this thing. And we were at churches that

938
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: really studied the Word of God. Like I mean, I

939
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: was always winning scripture memorization competitions and for prizes. Yes yes, yes,

940
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: sword drill, family hardcore. And when I moved, there was

941
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: like a series of events that happened, Like I moved

942
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: to New York City, which felt both like home and

943
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 1: also overwhelming, and like I was supposed to know where

944
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 1: I was because I was from there, but I didn't.

945
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 1: I broke off an engagement and then I started drinking,

946
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: and kind of all of them felt like at this

947
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: temporary or not temporary. I felt in my heart like

948
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: I was the woman in Song of Solomon who was like,

949
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: I am dark, don't look on me. And while I

950
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 1: was drinking, it's this weird a thing. I felt like

951
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: I was being pursued by God and like I was

952
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: throwing wind bottles at him, and I was like, no,

953
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: I know who you are, and I don't like you.

954
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: I don't like these things that I've seen in your house.

955
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: I don't like the way that I felt in a relationship.

956
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: I don't like these masculine elements of the Gospel.

957
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: And so.

958
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily justify what I was doing. I just

959
00:56:55,120 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: sort of owned every sin woman's persona in the Bible

960
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 1: and was like, deal with it. This is this is

961
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: now me. And that happened, so that hardness didn't happen

962
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: right away because I really did want to be the

963
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 1: good girl. I was performing, I was achieving, I was

964
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: doing those things, and then when something kind of broke

965
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: or tipped at the same time I started drinking, I

966
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: sort of was like, well, that didn't work out for me.

967
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: We'll try this other path where I will achieve for

968
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: my literary work or whatever, and I can and I

969
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: can live in this world and the drinking and whatever.

970
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think I probably was harder on myself

971
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: than anyone could have been on me. And if I

972
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: look back, and if I think of like if I

973
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: now were to meet little Amy, I would have so

974
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: much compassion. I would just probably have a place on

975
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: my couch for her to come and sit. I wouldn't

976
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: ask questions, but I'd listen if she wanted to talk,

977
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: and and I would once in a while be like,

978
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: you let me know if you need something. You let

979
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: me know if you if you need help. Because I

980
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 1: think knowing that, like there's always a way home, you

981
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: can always come home, you can always come home, is

982
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: really important. There's no s duckness too far, there's no yeah,

983
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: no shadow too dark.

984
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 3: That word compassion, you know, as I've dug through my

985
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 3: trauma growing up, and you know, big T trauma but

986
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 3: also little T trauma, you know, and for people listening,

987
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 3: like the big T trauma is those things that like, Okay,

988
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 3: it's the it's the sexual abuse, or it's the you know,

989
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 3: the physical abuse or whatever, but but the little T trauma,

990
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 3: the stuff like you know, a hunt, trauma, and and

991
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 3: I think we don't do a good job of talking

992
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 3: about this in the Christian in the Christian Church, in

993
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 3: our Christian communities these days because because I think too

994
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 3: many people write it off as just like mumbo jumbo.

995
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 3: But like there's a world where you can look back

996
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 3: and say in your story that Amy was doing those things.

997
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 3: Little Amy was like hard, I'm gonna I'm gonna just

998
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 3: throw myself into the sinful woman, as you said, and

999
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 3: yet have compassion for that person. And I think some

1000
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: people in the church today gets so weird, that so

1001
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 3: scared that like you use that word compassion and they're like,

1002
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 3: you just defying it, like you're so you're just okay

1003
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 3: with everything you were doing or you know, like and

1004
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,439
Speaker 3: and it's not it's like it's nuanced, but we don't

1005
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 3: like nuance. But how do you explain that nuance? Like,

1006
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 3: how do you explain that ability to look back and

1007
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 3: have compassion and just and still say like, but that

1008
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 3: still wasn't the flourishing, fulfilled, peaceful life that the Lord

1009
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 3: had promised me.

1010
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think a part of it is seeing the

1011
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: pain that someone's in and seeing not little Amy's actions

1012
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: as this defiant attempt to be God, but rather like

1013
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: a like a kid who throws a tantrum and they've

1014
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:33,919
Speaker 1: gone past the point where you're like, Okay, you're gonna

1015
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: be in time out or you're gonna you're gonna receive

1016
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: this punishment. It's like that that child's nervous system is

1017
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: not regulated or in any state to have any kind

1018
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: of logical conversation. What do they need? They need a hug.

1019
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: They need to be told you're you're having a really

1020
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: hard time, and I'm right here and it's okay that

1021
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: you're having a really hard time. And so that I

1022
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: think is what I would offer, not just my little self,

1023
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: but but I would say for for those who feel

1024
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: angry or defensive at giving compassion to someone in that space,

1025
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: they probably also need a hug, because that anger is

1026
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: coming from a place of no, I've had to hold

1027
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: it together for this long while they are ruining everything. Right,

1028
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: It either were the older brother in the prodigal story

1029
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: or the younger brother. The father has compassion for both.

1030
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 1: Actually he doesn't. He doesn't just drive out the older

1031
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: brother and say like, why are you being such a jerk?

1032
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: Just let him come home. He's like, Oh, you've been

1033
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: in my house and didn't know what you had, but

1034
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna throw this party for your younger brother as well.

1035
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: And I think, like shifting from I've lived as both.

1036
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 1: But my heart is to be doing what Jesus said

1037
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: he did when he does what he hears the Father

1038
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: saying to do. And that's where I'm listening and in

1039
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: my own life, not just for myself, but for the

1040
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: people that I'm interacting with. I think anger can be justified.

1041
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: It's usually coming from a place, but what we do

1042
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 1: with it and whether we need a hug in our

1043
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: anger and lack of understanding. Some people like, don't hug me. Okay, okay,

1044
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: you don't need a hug. You need fresh air, that's fine.

1045
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 3: And when you said that, and I got emotional because

1046
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 3: I think, for so much of my life is like

1047
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 3: I wanted that hug, and I wontn't have been able

1048
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 3: to say that, like John at twenty five, twenty one, thirty,

1049
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 3: even thirty thirty five wouldn't have even been able to

1050
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 3: say that, you know, And I think in some ways

1051
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 3: it's a physical hug, but it's this metaphorical hug, you know,

1052
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 3: that you're like, you know, we all want to be seen,

1053
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 3: you know, seen so safe and secure, right, and it's

1054
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 3: like when we miss out on those things, especially in

1055
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 3: our formative years, which by the.

1056
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: Way, like I think you you struggle with some things

1057
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 2: and I.

1058
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 3: Don't know your family of origin story, but it's but

1059
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 3: maybe maybe some things were done that were intentional, but

1060
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's okay to like recognize and admit

1061
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 3: that stuff. And it doesn't have to mean that your

1062
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 3: family or your parents or everyone did it intentionally. You know,

1063
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 3: if you had maybe a piece of advice for people

1064
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 3: who are out there who are maybe you know like

1065
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 3: you or in that in that position or in that place,

1066
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 3: like what what do you feel like you would have

1067
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 3: needed to hear if they're listening to this and they're like, yeah,

1068
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 3: that's me, Like I see myself and Amy, Like what

1069
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 3: would you say?

1070
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 1: I would say, I'm so glad you're still here. There's

1071
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: so much grace for you. And there's another way. There's

1072
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 1: a way that's full, that's into graded, that's not without pain,

1073
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: but it is full of love. And there is a

1074
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: way you can get to where you can be your

1075
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: own best friend and advocate to where you can offer

1076
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: to yourself the things that you maybe needed and weren't given,

1077
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: and that journey is worth going on. There is light

1078
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel and it is not

1079
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: a train.

1080
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 3: Let me ask you this one question before we wrap

1081
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 3: it up. Yeah, and you know you had talked about

1082
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 3: real quickly this this moment two and a half years

1083
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 3: into three the deal you had made with yourself, right,

1084
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 3: And that's shocking to me, but not shocking to me

1085
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 3: in this in this sense is like I was just

1086
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 3: talking to someone today who had gone seven months right

1087
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 3: without a drink, and they got to the point where

1088
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 3: they're like, I think I can have one. And it

1089
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 3: wasn't just one, you know, And I think there's some

1090
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 3: people who are like maybe they're a year into their

1091
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 3: three year deal, like that's kind of a popular thing, right,

1092
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give it up for a year. How did you, like,

1093
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 3: fully know? No, I can't take I can't keep doing this.

1094
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 3: Like what was that in your brain that finally flipped?

1095
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 3: Because I think people need to hear that because it's

1096
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 3: not about time. It's not about time, And this is

1097
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 3: what I make a big deal in my book about.

1098
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 3: It's not about quantity. It's not about time, it's about

1099
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 3: your relationship with alcohol. And it sounds like you have

1100
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 3: this like epiphany about my relationship with alcohol.

1101
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 2: What was that.

1102
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: I guess I had to decide if my relationship with

1103
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 1: alcohol was the most important thing in my life, because

1104
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 1: as long as it was in my life, whether I

1105
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: wanted it to or not, it always had the potential

1106
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: to come in and steal and shut down every other

1107
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: thing I was doing and wanted. Whether I thought it

1108
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: did or not, I'd say it was a pretty abusive relationship.

1109
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 1: Alcohol is not a kind or fair lover, but it

1110
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: will give you this false feeling that you're in control,

1111
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: or for me, it did anyway. And I think I

1112
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: had tried a lot of times to be like, oh,

1113
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 1: just well, this evening is just going to be now,

1114
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: I have an early morning, so it's going to be fine.

1115
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 1: Didn't matter, and sometimes it worked. And that's the thing

1116
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: about I guess. It's funny. Religion is similar. And when

1117
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:45,959
Speaker 1: I say religion, I mean the system of religion, Like, yeah,

1118
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: maybe you on your best day can achieve that, but

1119
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: you'll spend the rest of your time trying to get there,

1120
01:06:52,000 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: And that other potential for failure, for kid catastrophe, for

1121
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: having things stolen from you is just sort of ever present.

1122
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 1: So while there was that time that I decided to

1123
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: set it apart for three years, I would say for me,

1124
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't have the benefit or the comfort

1125
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: of knowing how badly my relationship with alcohol, what I

1126
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 1: was in it until it was retrospect. It was later

1127
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 1: reflecting that I could see, oh oh that was worse

1128
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: than I thought. In it, I just was like, I

1129
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 1: need I need a hard pause. And in the hard pause,

1130
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 1: I was like, I think I need a harder pause.

1131
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: And later I could see. But yeah, Amy, thank you

1132
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 1: so much. Thanks for being vulnerable.

1133
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 3: Thanks you, thank you for sharing your story, thank you

1134
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,959
Speaker 3: for just who you are as a person. We could

1135
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 3: talk for hours, feel like, and I think we're going

1136
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 3: to have to at some other point. And I'm just

1137
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 3: cheering you on as I welcome you back to all

1138
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 3: the best parts hopefully of social media. And I just

1139
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 3: I really appreciate you.

1140
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: Thanks. Has been an awesome convent. I really appreciate you

1141
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 1: and what you're doing. We'll see soon.

1142
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 3: If, by the way, real quickly, if people want to

1143
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 3: get your poetry, yeah, if they want to here. I

1144
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 3: mean like you have these amazing like spoken words like

1145
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 3: where can they go?

1146
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 1: Find me on Instagram? Or Amy Leewis dot com is

1147
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: my website and then you can get my book Dangerous

1148
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 1: Country of Love and Marriage by Auckland University Press. It

1149
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 1: was published in New Zealand, but it is available in

1150
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 1: the States, so Amazon, Barnes, and Noble you can get it,

1151
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: I think anywhere.

1152
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 3: Now do you recommend we read orange Juice? Is it oranges?

1153
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:04,520
Speaker 3: Or orange Juice? And rooftops?

1154
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 1: Orange Juice and Rooftops? I can't with good conscience recommend

1155
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 1: that you do, but I also can't stop you if

1156
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: you want to. That one will probably be the one

1157
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 1: that people will end up being like, oh, yeah, we're

1158
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: now we're getting that when I'm like, oh fantastic, that's

1159
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 1: the end process. Yeah and apologetic messy.

1160
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, all right, Amy, thank you so much.

1161
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 1: We'll takun Yeah, Taxan, thanks John.

1162
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 3: Hey, you know, before I started recording this episode, I

1163
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 3: read something on Instagram and it was someone with a

1164
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,720
Speaker 3: very quote unquote hot take right and said, oh, we're

1165
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 3: talking so much about regulating our nervous systems and you know,

1166
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 3: talking about Jesus Jesus that wants to do that, and

1167
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 3: we've lost sight that Jesus came for our sins, not

1168
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 3: for our emotions and our nervous system.

1169
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 2: And I just.

1170
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 3: It made me sad, because absolutely Jesus time for our sins, right, Absolutely,

1171
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 3: our biggest problem is the sin that separates us from God,

1172
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 3: and that the Christian life is not just about what

1173
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:20,640
Speaker 3: is comfortable. But to say that Jesus didn't die to

1174
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 3: heal us, that he did not die to be lord

1175
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 3: over everything in our lives, that he didn't die for

1176
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 3: all the parts of us, and that we're supposed to

1177
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 3: cast our cares on him is just it's a false dichotomy.

1178
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:37,920
Speaker 3: And so what Amy was saying there at the end

1179
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 3: I think is important, right that like there can be

1180
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 3: care and compassion for someone who is so dysregulated that

1181
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 3: they don't they can't even understand the truth of the gospel. Right.

1182
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 3: And so when I talk about the ministry that I've

1183
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 3: started in what I talked about early in the in

1184
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 3: the intro of the podcast is like I think, absolutely

1185
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 3: Jesus wants to heal all those parts of us that

1186
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 3: he died for, all those parts of us that he

1187
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 3: died so that we can have life everlasting, absolutely and

1188
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:18,479
Speaker 3: that we can overcome death and sin. And yet to

1189
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 3: relegate the Gospel to simply a life insurance policy for

1190
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 3: the afterlife is.

1191
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:27,639
Speaker 2: To ignore.

1192
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 3: What Jesus was talking about about the Kingdom of God

1193
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:36,679
Speaker 3: and the renewal of all things here on earth.

1194
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:37,640
Speaker 2: And I know that's so.

1195
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:40,839
Speaker 3: I know that's like a little bit of a tangent,

1196
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 3: but it just what when when when I'm listening to

1197
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 3: what Amy is saying there at the end, I think

1198
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 3: it's important for us to realize and recognize that Jesus

1199
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 3: didn't just like die on the cross so that you

1200
01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 3: could be left alone in your weeping and in your

1201
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 3: dysregulation and in your anxiety you'r OCD, your add your ADHD,

1202
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 3: and so that.

1203
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 2: You can just be left wandering like No.

1204
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 3: He is a God that moves close to you, and

1205
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 3: sometimes it's in just giving you that cosmic hug, and

1206
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:22,839
Speaker 3: I think that's good and right and in the gospel.

1207
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 3: So hopefully you were encouraged by that episode and that

1208
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,679
Speaker 3: talk with Amy.

1209
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:29,840
Speaker 2: I absolutely love her.

1210
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 3: Go pick up her poetry and be encouraged through that

1211
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 3: as well. A special thank you to our partner Life

1212
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,600
Speaker 3: audiolifeaudio dot com to check out some other great podcasts.

1213
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 2: I'm so thankful for you.

1214
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 3: If there's one thing in this episode that resonated with you,

1215
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,599
Speaker 3: please share it. Please share it with someone so that

1216
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 3: they can be encouraged as well. We'll see you back

1217
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 3: here again next week.