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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I am joined today again by

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Speaker 1: Renee Duffy and Rebecca Jilsperger, and we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about the Book of Deuteronomy.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Rebecca and Becky or I'm sorry. Renee and Becky are

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Speaker 1: hosts of the Bible Unbranded podcast, and so this is

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Speaker 1: kind of a joint effort between my podcast and theirs.

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Speaker 1: But it's kind of nice because while I've studied Deuteronomy,

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Speaker 1: I would not call myself a Deuteronomy expert. I've probably

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Speaker 1: done more focused tech like the Sabbath Command and Deuteronomy

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Speaker 1: six and even Deuteronomy four. Jumped in a little bit

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Speaker 1: on the Instructions to the King and Deuteronomy seventeen here

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Speaker 1: in some recent works, but the book of Deuteronomy as

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Speaker 1: a whole is one of Becky's favorites, and so I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to start this out. One of not even one

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Speaker 1: of it is the favorite, and I think for good reason, right,

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Speaker 1: because Deuteronomy is in a lot of ways sort of

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Speaker 1: the backbone of the Pentituke. Right, You're getting this sort

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Speaker 1: of overarching summary of a lot of the theological themes

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Speaker 1: that the rest of the Pentituke discusses in Deuteronomy, but

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Speaker 1: then it's also echoed throughout the rest of the Old Testament.

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Speaker 1: And so maybe we can start out and just talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your perspective of what this book

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Speaker 1: actually is. So when you approach Deuteronomy, how would you

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Speaker 1: describe what Deuteronomy is and what it's doing.

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Speaker 3: I'm renee, do you want to do? Am I just

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Speaker 3: doing this? Okay?

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Speaker 2: Well, well we'll get to everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like you can frame this out for

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Speaker 1: us and then we can we.

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Speaker 2: Can kind of hang off that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I am. I'm a I am zealously passionate about

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Speaker 3: this book. It's almost embarrassing. But when you hear why,

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Speaker 3: I think everyone kind of can get on board. It

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Speaker 3: feels like what you said is one correct. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of this theological backbone of the Pentituke and therefore kind

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Speaker 3: of the scriptures. And when I think of a theological

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Speaker 3: backbone kind of book like Isaiah or like Paul's writings

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Speaker 3: in the New Testament, I personally get a little intimidated

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Speaker 3: because I prefer narratival kind of like give me a

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Speaker 3: good story and I can sort of get into it,

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Speaker 3: like don't keep something way up here. It's not that

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Speaker 3: I'm not smart. I can get things that are way

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Speaker 3: up here. But as a believer, I sometimes feel like

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Speaker 3: I'm scared to try to unravel all the complicated pieces

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Speaker 3: to get meaning, because what if I do it wrong

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Speaker 3: and distort the text somehow? This is just part of

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Speaker 3: my deep, deep conservative roots and my own personality. What

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Speaker 3: I've discovered with Deuteronomy is that it's incredibly simple in

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Speaker 3: some ways, like that doesn't mean that if you read it,

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Speaker 3: and it's difficult at first to figure out what's going

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Speaker 3: on there. It's very removed from us in culture, and

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Speaker 3: we're not used to looking at things the way that

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Speaker 3: Deuteronomy is presenting them. But it is it is an

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Speaker 3: invitation you asked to over a view. It's an invitation

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Speaker 3: to know God deeply, like at an experiential level, and

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Speaker 3: to celebrate his attributes or his characteristics. And the way

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Speaker 3: that is done. And this makes sense considering the context

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Speaker 3: that we're given. The way this is done is it's

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Speaker 3: for a new generation of Israelites, because we're told in

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Speaker 3: the text that all the last generation, unless they were

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Speaker 3: really really little and are name to Moses or Caleb,

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Speaker 3: all of the rest have died in the wilderness. So

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Speaker 3: they know their history. But we know as human beings

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Speaker 3: that history dies really fast, like you can know it,

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Speaker 3: but until you experience something, it can be kind of

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Speaker 3: mysterious or lost on us. So and they're about to

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Speaker 3: go in the Promised Land instead of teaching warfare combat

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Speaker 3: or you know, I always picture like a scene in

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Speaker 3: Ulan where they're like doing all the training and stuff.

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Speaker 3: You know that I can't remember the name of the song,

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Speaker 3: but they're learning warfare because they're going to go into battle.

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Speaker 3: They don't need any of those tactics. The things they

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Speaker 3: have to be able to do are walk with God

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Speaker 3: because he's going there and he's bringing them and he's

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Speaker 3: going to do all the fighting and make sure they

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Speaker 3: win because he's giving this land to them, So they

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Speaker 3: have to know him enough to follow him. And you know,

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Speaker 3: that's on a very simple level, but it's not so

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Speaker 3: simple when you can't like see the figure of God

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Speaker 3: walking with you. You have to understand who he is.

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Speaker 3: So to these new generation of Israelites, he's teaching in

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Speaker 3: a style, a couple of styles actually, that they're very

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Speaker 3: familiar with who he is and that they can trust him.

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Speaker 3: And I'm going to say the examples and the teachings

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Speaker 3: he's given are at about an elementary school level. They're

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Speaker 3: meant to be incredibly painable. And I'm not just saying

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Speaker 3: that because Moses says that at the end of the book.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying that of how they would have understood these

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Speaker 3: and read them. And I'll be honest, there's only like

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm going a guest, there used to be seven.

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Speaker 3: Now there's probably fifteen that I feel like are attainable

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Speaker 3: to me because from cultural gaps and I don't quite

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Speaker 3: know what's going on with some of the stuff. And

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Speaker 3: they're not just attainable and understandable to the population. They're

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Speaker 3: all so something you learn. You're supposed to learn about

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Speaker 3: the attributes of God through practice and experiencing them, much

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Speaker 3: the way that we would teach our children. So when

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Speaker 3: we're trying to teach our children something, our young children,

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Speaker 3: even I have an eighteen year old right now, and

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Speaker 3: even I don't usually sit down and explain it, although

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Speaker 3: with my older ones I try that at some point.

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Speaker 3: But you let them walk through it, you let them learn.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes we talk about them learning the hard way or

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Speaker 3: you can learn the easy way, and that's exactly what

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Speaker 3: all these instructions in Deuteronomy are about. And we then,

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Speaker 3: as New Testament Christians, impose something on them that make

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Speaker 3: them feel incredibly scary, Like I, you know, I'll ask

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Speaker 3: a lot of students what they understand about the law

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Speaker 3: and about Deuteronomy, and they'll say, like, I'm so glad

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Speaker 3: we don't have to live under the law, because the

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Speaker 3: idea of law is that if you get it wrong,

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Speaker 3: you're outside of God's favor, and if you get it right,

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Speaker 3: all these good things are going to happen. And we

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Speaker 3: tangle it all up with sin, which the text says

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Speaker 3: all those things, but it's really about training people in

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Speaker 3: who God is by them practicing a number of his

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Speaker 3: attributes in very real, broken, real world situations, and if

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Speaker 3: the cool thing, there's so many cool things, but if

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Speaker 3: they get them wrong, it's learning the hard way. They

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Speaker 3: can still learn who God is. And if they get

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Speaker 3: them right, eventually it clicks in like, oh, yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: God is to me anyway, so that it's not it's

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Speaker 3: so cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that framing of the law is

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Speaker 1: really interesting. One of the texts that I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about an awful lot is Genesis twenty six y five,

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Speaker 1: where Abraham is described as one who has kept all

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Speaker 1: of God's laws and commandments and statutes. And you sort

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Speaker 1: of sit back and you say, well, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you if you eliminate sort of the text critical and

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Speaker 1: the historical critical, like was this a later, you know,

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Speaker 1: written thing, like why are they describing Abraham like this?

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Speaker 2: But to me, that gets at the spirit of the law.

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Speaker 1: You've read all of the life of Abraham where he's

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Speaker 1: not done everything right, he's he's never really condemned, Like

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Speaker 1: you don't get the sense in the Abraham narrative, and Renee,

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Speaker 1: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Like

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Speaker 1: you don't get the sense in the Abraham narrative that

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Speaker 1: God is continually disciplining Abraham along the way, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: you go down to Egypt, you say your wife is

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Speaker 1: your sister, and you come out of there with rewards.

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Speaker 1: This is not punitive to Abraham, probably, but he learns something.

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Speaker 1: And so there's this this trajectory where Abraham is learning

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Speaker 1: to walk with the Lord, and eventually that becomes this description,

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Speaker 1: this summary description of in Genesis twenty sixty five of

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Speaker 1: he's kept the whole of the law and the commandments. Well,

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Speaker 1: obviously he hasn't in a you know, you know sense

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Speaker 1: of he's never made a mistake, but he has in

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Speaker 1: the sense that his whole life now has been a

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Speaker 1: traje doctory toward this notion. And he is the prototypical

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Speaker 1: or paradigmatic sort of person that we should look back

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Speaker 1: to and say, oh, this is how Abraham did it,

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Speaker 1: this is how I should do it. So I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Renee any thoughts on that, as we kind of.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the Genesis narratives are frustratingly silent on morality,

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Speaker 4: very very very often for a lot of people, and

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Speaker 4: something that I currently like, like right now working in Jacob.

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Speaker 4: Something that is really apparent to me that sometimes gets

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Speaker 4: lost when we treat these individuals the way that you're

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Speaker 4: describing with Abraham as someone to copy, is that in

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Speaker 4: these narratives like the will of God is a determining

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Speaker 4: factor and not a controlling one, and so it determines

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Speaker 4: the outcome in the end, but it doesn't control the

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Speaker 4: individuals in the meantime, and so they're allowed to be

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Speaker 4: the people that they are, and that is.

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Speaker 3: Okay with God. We go question mark, is that okay, yeah, we're.

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Speaker 4: We're allowed to be the people that we are, and

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Speaker 4: so were they and so exactly the experience you're describing

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Speaker 4: happens to us every time we read, and that we

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Speaker 4: read and we go, gosh, was he really supposed to

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Speaker 4: do that? M Maybe it's not not really, not really

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Speaker 4: the point. But when we get to Deuteronomy, then, since

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Speaker 4: Deuteronomy is bringing this grand summary to the people so

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Speaker 4: that it becomes theirs and they carry it on, what

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Speaker 4: he's pointing out throughout it all is not who did

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Speaker 4: what right, but who God is, And what's going to

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Speaker 4: happen is they move forward because of the will of God.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, would you say Becky, like some of that with

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Speaker 1: the law and some of this struggle that we have

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Speaker 1: maybe with you know, Abraham obviously did things wrong, but

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Speaker 1: he's not, you know, ever really condemned in these narratives,

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Speaker 1: like there is a moral silence and a lot of

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Speaker 1: places and its particularly Genesis. But in my mind, I've

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Speaker 1: always sort of equated that to you know, the later

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Speaker 1: prophetic calls like I desired.

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Speaker 2: Mercy, not sacrifice.

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Speaker 1: This idea that there is a pathos to keeping the

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Speaker 1: law that transcends almost all of the jots and tittles.

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Speaker 1: And maybe I'm not saying that correctly, but do you

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Speaker 1: do you get the drift there?

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Speaker 3: This first struck me really solidly, well it was. It

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Speaker 3: was the second time it struck me. In my dissertation,

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Speaker 3: I picked like five passages that dealt with family members.

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Speaker 3: I was looking at the role of the father within

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Speaker 3: his little household. And I won't go into all the

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Speaker 3: details of that, but I had to restrict it further

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Speaker 3: because family household is defined differently in Israel. But so

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Speaker 3: I settled on these five passages and they were really

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Speaker 3: disturbing settings. Like I was looking to see how righteousness,

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Speaker 3: how a father would walk righteously in obedience a law.

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Speaker 3: And they were like, just really disturbing. If a man

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Speaker 3: has two wives and he loves one and hates the other,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, yes, how do you fix that?

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Speaker 3: And then it doesn't talks about how he's to treat

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Speaker 3: his children, okay. Or if you have a stubborn and

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Speaker 3: rebellious son. Or if you marry a woman and find

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Speaker 3: something the nakedness of a thing iovat da var you

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Speaker 3: don't like about her and you divorce her, you can't

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Speaker 3: marry her again, okay, Like these are just disturbing settings.

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Speaker 3: And then and I'm like, wait, if this is where

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Speaker 3: we're supposed to get our morality and our sense of morality,

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Speaker 3: I don't understand. And the indications of what they were

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Speaker 3: supposed to do, don't go back and fix that setting.

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Speaker 3: They're dealing with something else. And I want like the

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Speaker 3: setting fixed. I want divorce fixed. I wanted slavery fixed.

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Speaker 3: I want to polygamy fixed. I wanted disobedience fixed. And

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Speaker 3: it's just the setting. And then when I started teaching,

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Speaker 3: of course I was obsessed with a low I think

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Speaker 3: about it all the time. I can't tell you how

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Speaker 3: many times I've been teaching in one book, and then

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Speaker 3: I start talking about Deuteronomy, like not because that's where

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Speaker 3: I'm going. I've just renamed the book We're working on Deuteronomy,

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Speaker 3: and so I get a little obsessed. I think about

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Speaker 3: it a lot. But because of that, it was in

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Speaker 3: Samuel and Kings that I noticed the pattern that you

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Speaker 3: guys are talking about in Genesis. When I was reading Genesis,

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Speaker 3: I kind of had a lot of tropes and narratives

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Speaker 3: of what I was taught in my head. So I

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Speaker 3: was like, Okay, this was good and this was bad,

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Speaker 3: and we know this. I didn't know why. I just

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Speaker 3: had been taught that. But when I got to first

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Speaker 3: and Second Samuel and first and second Kings, I realized

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Speaker 3: it's almost completely silent. It's not quite you know, it

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Speaker 3: does call murder an adultery, wrong, shoot, but only one time,

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Speaker 3: like all the rest of this. Yeah, it's not looking

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Speaker 3: at things through the lens that I was looking at

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Speaker 3: it through, which was did this person's sin or didn't

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Speaker 3: this person sin? Was this person wicked or righteous? And

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Speaker 3: who should? Deep down inside the question was who am

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Speaker 3: I supposed to emulate here? How do I like be righteous?

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Speaker 3: Because I love God and I want to do the

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Speaker 3: right thing, and I think what And this is sort

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Speaker 3: of my way of saying, I can answer your question,

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Speaker 3: but I don't think about it in those terms anymore,

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Speaker 3: because I just don't think that's what the text is about.

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Speaker 3: The text is walk with me and know me. And

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Speaker 3: it's not about well, I speak in hyperboles sometimes and

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Speaker 3: my brain runs in a lot of different directions at

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Speaker 3: the same time. But it's not about get it right,

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Speaker 3: although it is about get it right. I mean, he

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Speaker 3: wants you to do these things, but it's about practice

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Speaker 3: who I am, so that you really understand who he is.

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Speaker 3: Because when he tells us a definition of himself an Exodus,

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Speaker 3: for example, when he's and I haven't memorized, but my

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Speaker 3: brain banks out every time I go to look at

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Speaker 3: Exodus thirty four or thirty two, thirty two, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: or yeah one of those about he's patent and you know,

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Speaker 3: loving kind, blah blah blah ah, those good attributes. We

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Speaker 3: hear those, but we can hardly fathom them, We can

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Speaker 3: hardly identify them. In the behaviors of our family members.

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Speaker 3: What might look like patients is actually, you know, just

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Speaker 3: a disrespectful You just keep talking and I'm going to

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Speaker 3: stand here politely. What trouble with concepts of love? What

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Speaker 3: is love? What does it look like to be loving

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Speaker 3: towards your child? Are you supposed to discipline them or

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Speaker 3: have grace in this setting? And it's these are really

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Speaker 3: difficult things to grasp. And in setting these scenarios in

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Speaker 3: the middle of places where Israel is living in their culture,

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Speaker 3: whether the culture is healthy or not healthy, God is

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Speaker 3: inviting his people to respond in a way that demonstrates

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Speaker 3: in the extreme cases. In other words, like He's going

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Speaker 3: to ask them to demonstrate maintaining human dignity to the

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Speaker 3: law breaker, the criminal, or maintaining a level of respect

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Speaker 3: when a marriage is not even near the marriage partners

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Speaker 3: aren't even near one another. In so Stratus, you've got

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Speaker 3: a conquering warrior and a captive non Israelite woman and

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Speaker 3: he's like, no, no, but this is what marriage is.

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Speaker 3: You're the same or you know, all these these dignity,

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Speaker 3: these respect, this proper use of authority, sacred sanctity of marriage,

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Speaker 3: all these kinds of pieces that when you practice them,

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Speaker 3: it clicks with you. I mean, he tells us in

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Speaker 3: Deuteronomy ten, love the widow and alien because you were aliens,

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Speaker 3: and because this is what I did for you. So

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Speaker 3: as you kind of do that, you realize, oh, that's

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Speaker 3: who he is toward me. Now I get it.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, no, it's helpful. So I think one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I've chased down over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, which is interesting, is Andy Stanley wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called Irresistible. I don't know you've ever read it,

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Speaker 1: but in it he essentially argues this won't be a

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Speaker 1: direct quote, but it would be a close paraphrase. He

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Speaker 1: essentially suggests that Israel is to obey.

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Speaker 2: God for their own good.

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Speaker 1: So, in other words, it's a quid pro quo sort

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Speaker 1: of relationship. I'm going to barter with you, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be obedient so that I can get good stuff.

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Speaker 1: Now you reference that at the beginning when you're talking

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Speaker 1: a little bit about the law. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: drastically unfortunate way to read Deuteronomy, just drastically unfortunate. And

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Speaker 1: you know, framing God is a genie in a bottle

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Speaker 1: that you rub the right way with obedience and then

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Speaker 1: you get blessing is the absolutely wrong way to understand

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Speaker 1: what we're reading.

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Speaker 2: In the Old Testament.

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Speaker 1: I think that there are two things that we're really

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Speaker 1: holding intention as we think about keeping the Covenant, the

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Speaker 1: Israelites keeping the Covenant, this is obviously going to involve action,

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Speaker 1: and I think what you're getting at is that learned action.

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Speaker 1: I see this in Deuteronomy seventeen, where the Israelite king

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Speaker 1: is to write a copy of the law, have it

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Speaker 1: approved by the priests, and then needs to read it,

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Speaker 1: you know, constantly, so that he learns to fear the Lord. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So that's this embodied moment where he's deeply, you know,

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Speaker 1: imbibing of the law such that he now understands who

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Speaker 1: God is and can walk alongside him with an appropriate

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Speaker 1: degree of attention, so that as he's ruling, he's doing

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Speaker 1: so in response to who God is. Right, that's not

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Speaker 1: a quid pro quo relationship. This is an immersive experience.

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Speaker 1: Right obedience is a recognition that we are subject to God,

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Speaker 1: subject to what God claims, and that we're going to

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Speaker 1: be loyal to Him regardless of what that seems like

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Speaker 1: it's going to work out for us or not. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so the way I usually think about it is

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Speaker 1: like when I read Deuteronomy, and I get to let's

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Speaker 1: say Deuteronomy thirty right, choose life. The Lord is your

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Speaker 1: life and the length of your days. Like what I

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Speaker 1: see in obedience is it's living along the grain of

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Speaker 1: reality that God has established.

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Speaker 2: You're you're getting in the flow.

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Speaker 1: And when you're in that flow, because we're in sort

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Speaker 1: of a world where things have become disordered through sin,

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Speaker 1: we're not always going to experience that reality as prosperity

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Speaker 1: and health and goodness and wonderful like you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not all going to be puppies and rainbows, right. There

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Speaker 1: are going to be fits and starts. So that's one

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Speaker 1: side of this equation. The other side of the equation

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Speaker 1: is like something that I see in Ezekiel thirty six,

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Speaker 1: twenty six and twenty seven, right, that in the New Covenant,

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Speaker 1: part of what's being fixed is our inability to keep

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Speaker 1: the law. And so there's a sense in which, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a keeping. The Covenant is intended to be something

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Speaker 1: we do constantly with all we are and have. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's no remainder there, and so that needs to be fixed.

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Speaker 1: But in the interim before it's fixed, God gives a

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Speaker 1: lot of grace and He recognizes the people who really

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Speaker 1: are trying to have soft hearts, who are trying to

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Speaker 1: keep this law, who are truly faithful to him. And

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Speaker 1: so we can read things like we read about Abraham,

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Speaker 1: or we read about you know whomever in the Old Testament,

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Speaker 1: these sort of faithful people. Right, you go to Hebrews

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Speaker 1: eleven and you see all these faithful people, and you're like,

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Speaker 1: I could think of a number of ways those people

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Speaker 1: weren't faithful, but.

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Speaker 2: They're they're living faithfully.

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Speaker 1: And I think there's this sort of tension that we

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Speaker 1: need to just reckon with of no, you can be

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Speaker 1: faithful and still sin and still be waiting for all

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Speaker 1: of this to be fixed.

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Speaker 2: That's sort of part of where we are.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know, I always that different for us

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Speaker 3: to day though, that it's that difference, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: that sounds like my life.

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Speaker 1: I think the only difference is that now we have

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Speaker 1: the spirit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, we've.

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Speaker 1: Been given that sort of way of we're no longer

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Speaker 1: slaves to sin. You know, I would take that to

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Speaker 1: like Romans five and six, Right, we're no longer slaves

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Speaker 1: to sin. We have the opportunity to live in a

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Speaker 1: new way and so we should be taking that we

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Speaker 1: have a different sort of empowerment than usually we see

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Speaker 1: in the Old Testament. And but I don't think it's different.

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a deep continuity. I think it's Dan Blockhaws.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Old Testament is all about faith, so

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Speaker 1: is the New Testament. Right, it's there's this deep continuity

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Speaker 1: that runs across both testaments. And so I think to

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Speaker 1: get Deuteronomy right, we do have to understand what it

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Speaker 1: means to keep the Covenant, to remember the Covenant, and

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Speaker 1: and part of that is understanding who God is and

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Speaker 1: what it means to walk alongside him exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Uh that keeping and remembering and walking alongside there's a

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Speaker 3: piece that we read sometimes that we're not alone. You

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Speaker 3: mentioned Andy Stanley. I'm trying to sorry solidate Elvis in

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Speaker 3: my head. You mentioned Andy Stanley and the you know,

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Speaker 3: the idea that if you do good things, good things

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Speaker 3: will happen. And I understand where people get that from

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Speaker 3: the Old Testament. From Deuteronomy especially, it sounds like that,

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Speaker 3: and I think I know why Deuteronomy is framed that way,

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Speaker 3: and it's because Moses is breaking it down as simply

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Speaker 3: and as pastorally as one possibly could. And yet and

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Speaker 3: I'll talk about that again in another second, but you'll

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Speaker 3: see that that concept of I thought it was going

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Speaker 3: to be this way I'm misunderstanding is all the way

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Speaker 3: through the rest of scriptures. I mean, that's what Ecclesiastes

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Speaker 3: is about. That's all the way through, even when you know,

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Speaker 3: is it Tobacco that's crying out to the Lord and

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Speaker 3: is like, hey, do your thing, and he's like, I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna do my thing, but you're not, like it's the

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Speaker 3: way that God works. Isn't this tip for tat thing

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Speaker 3: that we think we're having set up in Deuteronomy and

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Speaker 3: the people are you know, you mentioned at the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the prophets, like this is the fasting that I desire,

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Speaker 3: And then he mentions taking care of widows and orphans,

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Speaker 3: and you're like, that has nothing to do with food.

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Speaker 3: Am I supposed to starve myself? So that like what?

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Speaker 3: And he's saying, these aren't the things you're missing them.

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Speaker 3: These are symbols of the things. And I think one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons that that's so easy to misunderstand from

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Speaker 3: Deuteronomy is that there's this very pastoral hard that runs

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Speaker 3: through the entire text. And this is where for me,

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Speaker 3: if I imagine this is what actually when you understand this,

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Speaker 3: it starts making it simple. If you imagine Moses is

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Speaker 3: literally not just a generation but like we're talking like

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Speaker 3: seventy years forty years older than these people. He's like

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Speaker 3: the lies gruu on the mountain that you go to,

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Speaker 3: like it really difficult, it's intense. And he's looking at

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Speaker 3: these dingbats that like have not seen the miracles that

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Speaker 3: he has seen. I mean, not until Joshua. Are they

430
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 3: going to watch watch waters part again? And they were

431
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 3: born and food fell out of the sky. This is

432
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: just what food was Like. They're just not well, they're

433
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: not wise from age, and they haven't experienced all the things.

434
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: And he's trying, I'm so hard to get them to

435
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: understand the urgency of things, and he's making it very simple.

436
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: I love Deuteronomy for you mentioned that that's probably my

437
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 3: favorite biblical passage. I just love it. But he starts

438
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: in Deuteronomy four by saying, remember what happened when your

439
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 3: parents disobeyed. Don't disobey like them because they were all killed, Like,

440
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 3: don't disobey God, or you will literally die. And then

441
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: he does this really cool like parental thing, unlike you

442
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: who you did it right, You did it right, like

443
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 3: you've got it one time, you can do it again.

444
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: Come on, I've got this.

445
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: And then he gives a very clear like cause and effect,

446
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 3: you will literally die. And I often think of myself

447
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 3: with my son right now, who's just turned eighteen, scariest

448
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: birthday of them all, because oh, that means freedom, and

449
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: he does he just doesn't understand the perils of this world.

450
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: And like when he leaves the house, I'm literally, son,

451
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 3: if the boy you're driving with is going one hundred

452
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: and twenty miles an hour, get out of the situation

453
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 3: and don't choose that time to hang out the car window, Like,

454
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: do you not understand you could? Yah, I'm not worried

455
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: about you getting arrested. I'll I'll get you the next gast.

456
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: Case scenario in that situation.

457
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you could die. And that's the kind of

458
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 3: thing and so and he's also saying, if you do

459
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 3: these things, you will live the most blessed life ever.

460
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: And I do think one thing that I didn't hear

461
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 3: in your description, But I don't think we would differ

462
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: on this is that there are specific promises to the

463
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 3: Israelite people for this time where he's like, yeah, that land,

464
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 3: that land is your land. I'm I'm going there, I'm

465
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 3: conquering it, I'm handing it to you.

466
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: That's right.

467
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: The stories at the end of the Book of Judges

468
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 3: that are so gruesome and disgusting about you know, getting

469
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: raping women and cutting bodies apart and grabbing women out

470
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 3: of the like they're disgusting. Those kinds of things are

471
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: happening at the beginning of one of those tribal settlements.

472
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: They're not like, way, way, way later, this is what

473
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: they're going to enact, and God tells them ahead of time,

474
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: doesn't matter, I'm giving you the land. We can have

475
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: theological problems with that because they didn't really deserve it

476
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 3: or all that, but he says, I'm going there. If

477
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: you come with me, you will also get it. And

478
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: that's the piece that we fail to make the link

479
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: because the text isn't as explicit every time. Moses kind

480
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 3: of like leaves that part out because he puts the

481
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: carrot so close the carrot and the stick so close

482
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: to the bea behavior.

483
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, if that makes sense, No, there's no gap in

484
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: between there, So you're anticipating that. It's like this instant moment,

485
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: like it's going to happen, and you did this and

486
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 1: now you get it there.

487
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's saying that crucial. Yeah, But what he's really

488
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: saying is not it's going to take longer. That's not

489
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: the gap I'm talking about. It's the reason. The reason

490
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: is if you do this, you'll be walking with me

491
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: and I'm going this way, and you will get all

492
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: these things understood.

493
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: Got it.

494
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 3: Oh, it's not a for tech, it's I'm going to

495
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: do them. Do you want to be part of them? No?

496
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting point because I think in this

497
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: you notice I keep going back to Genesis, which is

498
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad, yees sad, I guess.

499
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: But no.

500
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: Genesis fifteen sixteen, Genesis fifteen six which is the one

501
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: everybody knows. Genesis fifteen sixteen. The iniquity of the Amrites

502
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: is not yet complete. So he's telling Abram that his

503
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: descendants will live in a land as slaves or foreign

504
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: deers Egypt because the iniquities and the Amni Amriits are

505
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: not yet complete. That's when they'll leave the land and

506
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: I think we totally miss that, missed the import of

507
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: what's going on there. You have this, Yes, this is

508
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: the Nahala. This is going to be the inheritance of

509
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: the people of Israel, and this is God's inheritance. But

510
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: there's someone else there right now. And so what God

511
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: is really saying is, look, you know, to the extent

512
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: that these people keep My covenant when they walk in there,

513
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: this is to your point, where I'm going, this group

514
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: is going to be displaced. But He's being patient with

515
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: that group right now. Right they haven't yet reached the

516
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: level where there I'm done now, like this nation hasn't

517
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: had its time and space just yet. But when they do,

518
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: that's when we're all going to go in there, like

519
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: that's when I'm going to appear there. And I do

520
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: think we miss some of the theological import of that.

521
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, Renee, if you have anything else to

522
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: add on that aspect of it, because I know this

523
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: is kind of interesting even when we look at the

524
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: progression between Abraham Jacob and then on into the conquest.

525
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, what I keep thinking of is this another

526
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 4: element of this tit for tat we keep calling it

527
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 4: this like what looks almost like they're being promised a

528
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 4: genie in a bottle. Is also the theme and the

529
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 4: reminder that they need that. I think that this pairs

530
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 4: well with is that they are going to need him.

531
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 4: They can't actually do this on their own. So all

532
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 4: of these good things that they want, because people want that,

533
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 4: they're going to have to get that from him. And

534
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 4: the way that those things come, like you're saying, is

535
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 4: to be with him. So I think some of that,

536
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 4: some of that tit for tat and that like get

537
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 4: what you want by obedience, is also serving this purpose

538
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 4: of letting them know that just because you're going to

539
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: move into it, like right now you're in the wilderness,

540
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 4: you feel your need very presently, and when you move

541
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 4: into the land, you're going to feel it less. But

542
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 4: actually it's just as strong. Everything you get has got

543
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 4: to come from me. So instead of it being when

544
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: we look at it from our western abundance place, it

545
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,479
Speaker 4: looks different like, oh I want more. If I want,

546
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: that's how I get it. But for them it was like,

547
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 4: you're going to every need that you have is going

548
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 4: to have to come from me. And so I think

549
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 4: that's one of what Becky saying, He's making it very simple, right,

550
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 4: because he's handing him this playbook to live by and

551
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 4: to extrapolate on for the rest of their time. And

552
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 4: so he's making it very simple in this way that

553
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 4: like everything, everything is from me. If it's good, then

554
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 4: it came from me. And obedience to me just keeps

555
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 4: you in that space where you want to be.

556
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I just said.

557
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: I just wanted to add too that that whole thing

558
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: about the time of the their sin has not yet come.

559
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 3: We're talking about it on a positive which is really nice,

560
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: like hey, look at all this grace, but there is

561
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 3: a very clear from Israelite perspective like one, yeah, uh,

562
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 3: this is what happens, like as you're getting your promise,

563
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: you are being reminded, like the prophets will tell them

564
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 3: later that the judgment is every bit as certain as

565
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: the blessing if they live a certain way. So it's

566
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 3: this double edged anyway, Please keep going with what you

567
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 3: were going to say, Jane, No.

568
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: You even have that.

569
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because you know you have these you know,

570
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: the land needs its Sabbath sort of narrative within the

571
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: prophetic tradition, and so you you sit back and you're

572
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: kind of like, Israel's not really being treated that differently

573
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: from the rest of the nations. But what the theological

574
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: difference is is that they belong to God as a

575
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: special possession, that they have a notion of what it

576
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: means to walk with God because they've been made privy

577
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: to it through the revelation that God has given them,

578
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: and now they're rejecting that and not doing what they're told,

579
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: and so the implication is not it's okay, Israel, let

580
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: me pat you on the head and we'll just keep going.

581
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,479
Speaker 2: It'll be all fine, No, no, no.

582
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: What they get is they get the discipline and then

583
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: the regathering right, and that's different than the other nations.

584
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: There's an element of grace and restoration there because God

585
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: is going to be faithful to the Covenant, regardless of

586
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: whether Israel is faithful to the Covenant. But the implications

587
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: are still meeted out. It's not like they get off

588
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: scot free, and so none of this is just sort

589
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: of like, well, Israel gets it. It doesn't really matter what

590
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: Israel does. There's maybe a sort of a distorted sense

591
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,479
Speaker 1: in which that's true, but they don't get it as if,

592
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: like we've been talking about this quid pro quo. It's

593
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: not a barter, it's not a trade. It's going to

594
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: come through immense suffering and a recognition of sin, a

595
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: disciplining and refining. And I think that that does some

596
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: interesting things for we don't necessarily have to talk about now,

597
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: but like this understanding of suffering an ongoing dependence on

598
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: the Lord. You know, I'm thinking Deuteronomy eight, Right, be

599
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: careful when you go into the land and you're living

600
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: in houses you didn't build, you're drinking from cisterns that

601
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 1: you didn't dig, you're eating in fields you didn't plant,

602
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: that you not forget the Lord, right, because he's the

603
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: one who gave you.

604
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: The power and the strength. Right.

605
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: So there's this ongoing dependence that they're supposed to remember

606
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: that he's still there. And I think that's that's sort

607
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: of the quintessential kernel that we have to keep before

608
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: us as we're reading through some of these what seem

609
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: like those quid pro quot kind of passages.

610
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that just I think Renee was saying about

611
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 3: they're still gonna desperately need him, And we see the

612
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: cycle all through the scriptures, Judges as a prime example,

613
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: but where you think start going okay and you kind

614
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 3: of forget your dependence. And just a side thought, I

615
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: was in teaching a class last Friday or the friday before,

616
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 3: and as we were praying at the beginning of class,

617
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 3: a student was praying and he just mentioned, you know,

618
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 3: help us not just to remember you when we need you, Lord,

619
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: but help us to remember to praise you for things too.

620
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, yes, yes, yes, and that

621
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 3: is totally in line with what we're talking about right now.

622
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 3: But we have this notion underneath all of that that

623
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 3: God wants our praises and he doesn't want to be

624
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 3: just like the answer man. And yet he's utter dependence,

625
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 3: he knows prevented on him, and he's so okay with that.

626
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: He's so like, it's so contrary to our Western culture.

627
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: But no, I mean it circles back to a lot

628
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: of things we've talked about before. And I think, you know,

629
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: even when we talked about the image of God and

630
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 1: the sort of dual notion of yes, it confers dignity,

631
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: but it also involves obligation. You know, you can't you

632
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: can't be the image of God without having God present.

633
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: And so even just that relation finds a dependence. I'm sorry,

634
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: I think I cut you off her name maybe today,

635
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, I thought it was how you start.

636
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 3: But this we've moved on from this just a little bit.

637
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 3: But a minute ago we were talking about the presence

638
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 3: of God and their deep, deep meat from Him. Maybe

639
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: we haven't really moved on from that. But if it's okay,

640
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 3: I want to take just a second to talk about

641
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 3: one of the specific laws, and it's we call it.

642
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: I call it the teenage boy law because it's it

643
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: feels like like, really we're talking about this in the Bible,

644
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: but it's one of my very favorites, so in Deuteronomy three,

645
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: and I'm just going to go ahead and read it.

646
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 3: And yeah, it's a little bit more explicit than we

647
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: expect our Bibles to be. But whatever. When you're in

648
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 3: camped against your enemies, so this is when they're out

649
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 3: at war, keep away from everything impure. If one of

650
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 3: your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he's

651
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 3: to go outside the camp and stay there. As evening approaches,

652
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 3: he 's to wash himself, and at sunset he may

653
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 3: return to the camp. Designate a place outside the camp

654
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 3: where you can go to relieve yourself as part of

655
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 3: your equipment, have something to dig with, and when you

656
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your experiment.

657
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: Where the Lord, your God moves about in your camp

658
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 3: to protect you and to deliver your enemies from you.

659
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 3: Your camp must be holy so that he will not

660
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.

661
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: And so many of us I think, I mean, that's

662
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: not a standard kind of law. You think of a

663
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: lot of other ones. But we come to that and

664
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 3: it's just weird. I don't I don't even I don't

665
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: even know how to if I need to explain how

666
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 3: weird it is. But there's this idea. You could look

667
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: at it as like, why does God care about where

668
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: you go to the bathroom. You could look at it as,

669
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 3: you know, why does he put so much pressure when

670
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: you're out at war and at camp? Why are his

671
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 3: standards so high? You can do all kinds of things

672
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: theologically with it, But if you kind of peel back

673
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 3: all the complicated pieces and let yourself just look at

674
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 3: it as a like I said, if I was going

675
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 3: to teach my son when he was in elementary school,

676
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: something this would be a phenomenal way to teach it.

677
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 3: So he's telling them when you go out to war,

678
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 3: which they only do a few times before this, and

679
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: then they're going to do like for the rest of

680
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 3: their lives as they go into the conquest. Your area,

681
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: your tent, your encampment needs to be handled almost like

682
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: it's a tabernacle. You know, it doesn't go into all

683
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 3: the details and we don't have E. Fodds and all

684
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 3: this kind of stuff, but like, literally, don't leave your

685
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 3: pooper around the tent area because God is walking in

686
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 3: it with you. And I love how I shared this story,

687
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 3: and it probably came back to bite me because when

688
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 3: students came over to my house for the last class,

689
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 3: that's all they talked about. And I was like, oh,

690
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 3: I was a little too vulnerable. But I had someone

691
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: over at the beginning of this year and I was

692
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 3: giving her a little tour of my house because I

693
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: love my house. And we walked downstairs and I have

694
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 3: three dogs and they're very housebroken, but this particular day,

695
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 3: one of my dogs was not. And I open up

696
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 3: to my long family game room that we haven't decorated,

697
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 3: but it's still this great space. I opened the door,

698
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: and there's a pile on my carpet, and I was like, Oh,

699
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 3: we're just gonna show. I didn't even know what to do.

700
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: Just shut the door and literally literally not the figurative

701
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 3: word use of this word, but literally, that is what

702
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 3: it's talking about here, because that's how horrifying, if not more,

703
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 3: it would be if you knew that God was walking

704
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: in your camp and you had piles everywhere, so you

705
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 3: take them outside the camp. And so what you're supposed

706
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 3: to remember is as you're in this camp with all

707
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: the fellow soldiers and you're going out against this enemy

708
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 3: that's you're not really equipped or meeting up to. I

709
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 3: don't care how big you are, and you're word about

710
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 3: what's going on. Every time you even go to the bathroom,

711
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 3: you're reminded that you're not really even going to be

712
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: the ones fighting because God is with you in your camp.

713
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 3: When you wake up in the morning, when you go

714
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: to do your business, it doesn't matter. When you're reminded

715
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 3: that your encampment, the last place in the world that

716
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 3: you would think would be holy because soldiers and men

717
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: and lots of them, is where God is residing at

718
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 3: that point with his people and it's just And that's

719
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 3: what I'm talking about about these laws being like teaching

720
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 3: techniques and like anything else. You can take a teaching

721
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: technique and strip it of all its meaning and just

722
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: do the rudimentary stuff.

723
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

724
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, you can kind of be like, hey,

725
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 3: why are we doing this? Listen, here's why you do it, because, yeah,

726
00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 3: God is here.

727
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 4: And at the same time, if you were to do

728
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 4: it all, it would shape you into something like like

729
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 4: you're saying, you know, like it's it would be it

730
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 4: would be impossible not to be shaped internally by the process.

731
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 4: So you do it even if you don't know why

732
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 4: and you don't know how it's all going to work out.

733
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 4: It's a necessity.

734
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. I just think that's so beautiful, so beautiful.

735
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you think about the oddities and inconveniences

736
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: that that raises, right, Oh yeah, because that's what it is.

737
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: It's that's really inconvenient, right, Like in old.

738
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: Ways, it's just.

739
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be I'm supposed to be fighting a

740
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: war and now I can't because I had a nocturnal emission.

741
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: And I got to stay out I think seven days

742
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: or whatever. It's like it wasn't even my fault.

743
00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: It's like, fault has nothing to do with it being ostracized. No, right,

744
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: we're protecting something that needs to be protected, and we're

745
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: recognizing that as essential as you may be to our community,

746
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: and as important as you may be to our community,

747
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: you're not the secret sauce that's going to win the battle.

748
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: And so you just hang out over here. It's okay,

749
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: We're cool. It's a whole different sort of cadence of life.

750
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: You're you're creating there, and in that cadence, I think

751
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: a point renee, it's like it's going to form you.

752
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the reason for it is the thing that

753
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 3: I mean, and the scripture tells you because God moves

754
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: about in your camp and you're like, okay, yeah. I

755
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: think sometimes we don't realize that that's telling us the

756
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 3: whole reason they're doing it, even though yeah, anyway, I

757
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 3: just I find the simplicity of that message just.

758
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: I think it's something maybe we'll close up on this

759
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: because I think this is an important aspect of the

760
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: law that I've been kind of playing around with, and

761
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: you know, I look at but I think part of

762
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: what we often miss when we're dealing with the law

763
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: is that it's not always prescribing the ideal. A lot

764
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: of times it's restraining the inideal. And so when we

765
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: look at some of these things, and you talked about

766
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: this earlier, Becky, like I wanted to solve the you know,

767
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: I want it to solve the multiple lives problem. I

768
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: wanted to solve the divorce prom I wanted to solve

769
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: the adultry problem. Like, but that's not what it's always doing. Sometimes.

770
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: What it's doing is it's saying, when these things occur,

771
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: not these things should occur, and this is how you

772
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: should execute on these it's when these things occur, there's

773
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: now another boundary that we're going to set so that

774
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: this doesn't get any crazier than it already is. Like,

775
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: there's a way for you to go the nth degree

776
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: on this. So if you marry a slave from a

777
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: conquered nation, there's a way for you to do that.

778
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: That's really abhorrent it we're not going to allow that.

779
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: So we're going to set boundaries on this, and this

780
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: is how you're going to do that. So it's not

781
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: an authorization to say, hey, just go do it, but

782
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: it's a wrestling with the reality of when this occurs.

783
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: That's these are the these are the constraints around that practice.

784
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 3: Is that.

785
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 4: So?

786
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: I mean I get that out of like Jesus's statement

787
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: on divorce, Like the Pharisees are asking him, why did

788
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: Moses commanders to give a certificate or a divorce and

789
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: Jesus says he did it because of the hardness of

790
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: your heart. But that then he references Genesis one and says,

791
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: but the two are to become one flesh.

792
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: That's the ideal.

793
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: The certificate of divorce is sort of a mediating structure

794
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: where he's saying, no, we we kind of anticipated you'd

795
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: be jerks about this, and so we had to.

796
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 2: Put a fence up, right.

797
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 4: Is that?

798
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: Is that how you think about it?

799
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 4: Like?

800
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 3: Not anyone, not anymore. Although I'm not saying that that's incorrect.

801
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 3: There's a different paradigm and there are a lot of

802
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 3: notions and we don't have time to go into all

803
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 3: of them that I've had to kind of deconstruct. I'll listom,

804
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 3: but I won't deconstruct like do we have to obey

805
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 3: the law? That becomes an irrelevant question for me once

806
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 3: I understand what law is are these things just to

807
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 3: make us healthy because they're good for us? That's part

808
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: of it. But I don't think that's the that's the offshoot,

809
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 3: that's not the reason. Is he putting boundaries on these circumstances?

810
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 3: Or another way to say that is like, is are

811
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 3: all these laws reflective of the way that Israel's set

812
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 3: up by God is better than surrounding nations? Not necessarily?

813
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: Sometimes sometimes know, if I don't understand a law, is

814
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 3: it probably related to some cultic practice in the ancient

815
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 3: and eris world? And I can explain it that way?

816
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 3: Not necessary. So these are all the things I've had

817
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 3: to kind of deconstruct. It doesn't mean none of them

818
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 3: are true. What I have The paradigm I've come to

819
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: see instead is that that just replaces those those still

820
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: take they have relevance, they're just secondary. To understand the

821
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 3: difference between prescriptive and descriptive, so things that God is

822
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 3: telling you to do and things that are the setting.

823
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 3: That was the first important part for me. And we

824
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 3: think of all these laws, if you da da da

825
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 3: da da, then d D as pretty scriptive because they're

826
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 3: telling you what to do. But in each one of them,

827
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 3: except for things like the Ten Commandments, where it says,

828
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 3: don't that the things that have a setting that's descriptive.

829
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 3: It's describing a picture like a selfie of society, and

830
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 3: that's your setting for the thing he wants to teach you.

831
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 3: And then the part that follows is how you're supposed

832
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 3: to behave and the reason you're supposed to behave that way,

833
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 3: and that's the prescriptive part, and trying to find a

834
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: link between the two of them. I don't think it

835
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 3: always works. It sometimes works to say in this setting,

836
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 3: the prescriptive part puts boundaries around that. Instead what I'm

837
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 3: but that said, I think most of what the law

838
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 3: is doing is speaking to those in authority and telling

839
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 3: them to use their authority better or someone else, or

840
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 3: don't use it if you've already broken it. But instead

841
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: what I think is happening, and I can use Paul's

842
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 3: example here in the New Testament because it'll just be

843
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 3: clearer and more comfortable to Christians because Paul did it,

844
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 3: and Paul was an awesome rabbi. He talks about he

845
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 3: talks about one of the pieces of the law a

846
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 3: couple times, and he talks about the oxen that are

847
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 3: threshing grain. Ye, And it's not about animals. His law

848
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 3: is not about animals. He's if an oxen is threshing grain,

849
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 3: he should be allowed to like nibble while he eats,

850
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 3: because he should be allowed to profit from that in

851
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 3: some way. And then his conclusion, his application and the

852
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 3: reason he's even citing that law is for pastors. So

853
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 3: should pastors be recompensed for their work? Should they just

854
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 3: do it for free? Because it's ministry. No, even an

855
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 3: oxen gets some compensation for their work. And so looking

856
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 3: at that and then looking at a bunch of these,

857
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 3: I don't know if this is one hundred percent the rule,

858
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 3: but it fits better so far as a paradigm. Is

859
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 3: that the settings are explaining kind of a more extreme

860
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 3: example so that you can extrapolate backwards from all of those.

861
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: So it's actually about recompense for work, which is what

862
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 3: Paul says, right, and the reason it's picking oxen, I believe,

863
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 3: and this also comes from studying lots of ancient and

864
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 3: Eastern laws. They do not look that different than Israelite

865
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 3: laws in the way they're laid out, and a lot

866
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: of their themes and everything. There are significant differences, but

867
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 3: they're not. You can you can understand why the way

868
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 3: it does. But it's saying if an oxen can, if

869
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 3: oxen can eat while they're working, then could a child? Sure?

870
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 3: Could a slave? Yeah? Could a woman? Of course. It

871
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 3: doesn't matter where you go on the social stratus, you're

872
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 3: going to find something above.

873
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: It, above an oxen, above an oxen.

874
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the reasons this passage

875
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 3: about dignity, where someone only gets lashes and you're like,

876
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 3: forty lashes. I think you'd be dead at forty lash.

877
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 3: I would be dead at fortylaes. I do know some

878
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 3: cultures still do that today, Korean culture. I was just

879
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 3: talking to a student in my class and he's like, yeah,

880
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 3: that's our rule. But the text tells us that if

881
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 3: someone has broken God's law and they are deemed worthy

882
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 3: of punishment, so it's not just man's law, it's God's law.

883
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 3: They're an offender of God, they can't be given more

884
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 3: than forty lashes, which sounds too much to me. So

885
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 3: we all get distracted. But then the text tells us,

886
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 3: because that would degrade him, humiliate him. You can't strip

887
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 3: a person's dignity if you can't strip the dignity of

888
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 3: a criminal. Can you strip the dignity of a child?

889
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 3: Can you strip the dignity of a woman? Can you

890
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 3: strip the dignity of a handmaid? Can you strip the

891
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 3: dignity of a concubine? Can you know? And so oftentimes

892
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 3: the paradigm that works a little better for me is

893
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 3: trying to figure out what's being instructed, like Paul did,

894
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 3: what's this thing actually talking about? And instead of looking

895
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 3: at these laws on the surface as very topical, they

896
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 3: still would apply in that setting. I'm not saying they're

897
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 3: just symbolic. If an oxen's eating, I'm sure it gets

898
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 3: to working. I'm sure it gets to eat, right, But

899
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 3: you're looking at extreme examples. So, because remember these laws

900
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 3: are told, We're told in Deuteronomy, these laws are given

901
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 3: so that the judges can judge. Yeah, these settings are

902
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 3: you know, oftentimes the thing that is too hard and

903
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 3: so for the judge and so he'll have to ask

904
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 3: a higher judge will sometimes believe and get taken up

905
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 3: to Moses. They are things that are tricky. But if

906
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 3: you're looking at like human dignity, you now have a

907
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 3: snapshot of what human dignity looks like, we actually have

908
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 3: a lot of those in scripture, a lot of snaps

909
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 3: what authority looks like, a lot of snapshots of what

910
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 3: equality and marriage would look like, a lot of snapshots.

911
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 3: And so you can extrapolate that from those because they're

912
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 3: in pretty extreme settings and they're usually, like you said,

913
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 3: talking and this is a big thing with Dan Block.

914
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 3: He's where I learned so much of this front. But

915
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:28,479
Speaker 3: they're usually addressing those in authority and telling them how

916
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 3: you exercise that authority. Really well, it's not always what

917
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 3: the topic is.

918
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really helpful. And I get that.

919
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: And the ox the oxen treading grain, you know, like

920
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: I don't have I don't ever muscle my oxen while

921
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: it's treading daring, so I don't have that problem. But

922
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: you get the sense that we're from us, right, I mean,

923
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: so many of us don't have oxen. But we through

924
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: that exegesis that Paul provides, we do now understand that

925
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: there's a something bigger at play. I'd be interested and

926
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: maybe we can get into this in the next episode.

927
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: But like, how do we read these commands with a

928
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: theological register? So I'm not out of time, so we

929
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: might we probably should carry this over the next episode,

930
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: but I'd be interested to start here.

931
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 2: Maybe next time is kind of talk about that.

932
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 1: So when we look at the mussling of Oxen while

933
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: they're trying to grain, one of the things that we

934
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,399
Speaker 1: could sort of think about is what does that say

935
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: about the way we think about God's provision?

936
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 2: That's right, and.

937
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: So you you sort of okay, yeah, so I think

938
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: you drop it down.

939
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 3: Slaming them isn't cool unless you get to what in

940
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 3: the world does this mean about? What does God try

941
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 3: to show me about himself so that I can I

942
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 3: don't know. I would say fall in love with him

943
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 3: more sometimes maybe that love has a little bit of

944
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 3: fear in it, all of those things, but it's sure

945
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 3: it's a pretty reel like when you see it.

946
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think that that carries through even

947
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: beyond those if then commands like the ones with the

948
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 1: situation into something like the Ten Commandments, and it really

949
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: does transform the way we read those. So I think

950
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: that'll be an interesting topic of conversation. We'll have to

951
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: dive into it next time, though.

952
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 4: So.

953
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: Really appreciate this conversation. This is super helpful. I think,

954
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: you know, diving into the Book of Deuteronomy, like, this

955
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: is going to be fun. So thank you Renee and

956
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: Becky for being here. Thank you everybody for listening. Come

957
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: back next time. We're going to talk a little bit

958
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: about the law and extrapolating theology out of the law,

959
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: like what does this mean?

960
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 2: Who is God?

961
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: Out of the Book of Deuteronomy, which is going to

962
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: be fascinating. So join us next time and we'll catch

963
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: you on the next episode of Thinking Christian Take Care.

964
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the

965
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

966
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to life audio

967
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts

968
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

969
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:06,959
Speaker 1: and more.