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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to The Beckett Cook Show with your host,

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Speaker 2: Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,

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Speaker 2: visit his website at beckettcook.com. To help support the podcast,

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Speaker 2: visit patreon.com slash thebeckettcookshow. Please consider subscribing to the podcast

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Speaker 2: and leaving a five-star rating.

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Speaker 3: Hey guys, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Today, my guest is Pastor Michael Roundtree, and he's written

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Speaker 4: a book called The World Made Right, Finding Confident Hope

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Speaker 4: in the Book of Revelation. This is such a good book.

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Speaker 4: And Michael Roundtree has been on this show before. I've

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Speaker 4: been on his podcast. He has a podcast called The

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Speaker 4: Remnant Radio. I highly recommend it. He and two other

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Speaker 4: guys talk theology, and it's so biblically sound. Michael is

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Speaker 4: also a pastor in Oklahoma City. And this is going

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Speaker 4: to be part one of our conversation. Our conversation went

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Speaker 4: on for a long time. So this first hour is

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Speaker 4: part one, and then we're going to follow up with

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Speaker 4: the second hour of part two.

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Speaker 3: But We get.

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Speaker 4: Into all kinds of fascinating topics in the book of

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Speaker 4: Revelation because the book is fascinating. And he goes through

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Speaker 4: each chapter of the book of Revelation in his book.

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Speaker 3: And we're going to be talking about all the things.

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Speaker 3: You know, the 144,000, the Great Tribulation, what about ethnic Israel?

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Speaker 3: what about the rapture? Is there a rapture? What does

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Speaker 3: that look like?

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Speaker 4: We're going to be talking about the Antichrist and the

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Speaker 4: Mark of the Beast in 666. And we're going to

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Speaker 4: be talking about Babylon the.

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Speaker 3: Great, the Millennium. Is there a Millennium? Is it a

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Speaker 3: literal thousand years? Is it figurative?

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Speaker 4: We're going to go through all of this. So I

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Speaker 4: highly recommend you watch both episodes, both parts, because Michael

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Speaker 4: Rowntree is so, so biblically knowledgeable. And I just love

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Speaker 4: this book. So watch both parts. But first, a word

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Speaker 4: from our sponsor.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Michael Rowntree.

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Speaker 1: How's it going?

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Speaker 3: Good. It's good to have you on. How many times

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Speaker 3: have you been on my show? I think you were

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Speaker 3: on once or twice.

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Speaker 1: Maybe once. Maybe once? You've been on our show, Run

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Speaker 1: It Radio, once or probably twice? How many times?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think twice.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm glad to have you back on the show.

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Speaker 2: As I.

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Speaker 4: Mentioned in the intro, the book, The World Made Right,

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Speaker 4: is so fascinating. And I'm so glad you wrote this.

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Speaker 4: And it's a page-turner, as I say.

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Speaker 3: So tell me why.

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Speaker 3: In the world would you even want to tackle revelation?

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Speaker 3: Why did you write this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's a book about the book of revelation

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Speaker 1: and it walks through every chapter of revelation, not in

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Speaker 1: this like verse by verse commentary way, but just helping

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Speaker 1: people get the broad sweep of it. And, uh, well,

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Speaker 1: so there's a story behind it. I, I mean, I,

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Speaker 1: I preached the book back in 2020 and, which was

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Speaker 1: a famous, infamous year for, well, the world, right? And

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Speaker 1: I started it the week before COVID hit. And people

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Speaker 1: didn't know COVID was going to hit. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: heard rumblings of like, it seemed like something's going on

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Speaker 1: in China, but nobody knew it was going to do

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Speaker 1: what it did. And so I started preaching the week

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Speaker 1: before COVID hit and people were already just interested. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's revelation, but then when COVID hit, they

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Speaker 1: were super interested because it was like, ah, is it.

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Speaker 3: The other world? The time is near. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so, and you know, it was also politically and

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Speaker 1: the riots and everything that was going on at that time,

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Speaker 1: it felt totalizing. And you know, every time you thought

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Speaker 1: it was like, okay, I think maybe we're through it.

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Speaker 1: You know, there'd be some news article like, murder Hornets

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Speaker 1: are landing in such a, and we're like murder Hornets.

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Speaker 1: Of course they were just sensationalized. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that was really ever a thing, but that's, that was

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Speaker 1: the buzz. Uh, no pun intended anyway. So my, my

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Speaker 1: church really like it was, I've been pastoring there for

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Speaker 1: 17 years and that was the sermon series that touched

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Speaker 1: them more than any other. Not only did it help

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Speaker 1: clarify what revelation means, but also I think helped people

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Speaker 1: find hope. And for me, I wasn't coming in as

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Speaker 1: this end times expert. I was settling a lot of my,

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Speaker 1: like I had a default interpretation of the end times.

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Speaker 1: We call that eschatology in theological spaces. So I had

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Speaker 1: a position on it, but it wasn't like this deeply

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Speaker 1: researched kind of thing. I mean, I had studied it

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but like I'd never walked verse by

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Speaker 1: verse through Revelation. The fact that I didn't have like,

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Speaker 1: I guess this intense end times perspective going in when

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Speaker 1: you're the one teaching it, you're like, I can really

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Speaker 1: got to figure this out. So I've read a million

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Speaker 1: books about it. And I was just floored by how

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Speaker 1: different revelation is. Like once you really study it, then

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Speaker 1: what a lot of us have been taught, we're taught

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Speaker 1: to essentially fear the book. And it feels like people

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Speaker 1: land on one, one of two sides. They either obsess

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Speaker 1: about it or they're terrified of it. And the ones

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Speaker 1: who obsess about it just make everyone scared. And, then

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Speaker 1: those scared people don't ever want to read the book.

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Speaker 1: And even the title of the book, it's The World

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Speaker 1: Made Right. And I could walk you through chapter by

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Speaker 1: chapter and show this is a book of hope, not fear.

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Speaker 1: This is a book of joy, of confidence. It's just

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Speaker 1: on a daily basis, the book of Revelation inspires me.

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Speaker 1: It's become my favorite book of the Bible. And part

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Speaker 1: of that is not just the hope that it offers,

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Speaker 1: but also Just the way that it's written, John never

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Speaker 1: quotes the Old Testament a single time. But in 400 verses,

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Speaker 1: he alludes to over 500 times. Some say, I've read 512.

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Speaker 1: Some say up to 800 allusions to the Old Testament.

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Speaker 1: It kind of depends on how you count them. And

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like, why would he do that? If

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Speaker 1: you read the book of Matthew, it's like, as it

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Speaker 1: was written, as it was written. It directly, explicitly quotes

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Speaker 1: the Old Testament. but John will just allude to it,

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Speaker 1: use words, echoes, images from various chapters. And he does

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Speaker 1: it more than once a verse on average in the book.

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Speaker 1: What's he doing? Well, he's showing that this book is

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Speaker 1: the fulfillment. It's the climax of what all the Old

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Speaker 1: Testament saints are waiting for. Even the New Testament saints

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Speaker 1: now are waiting for. It's the climax of prophecy. That's

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Speaker 1: a term coined by a scholar named Richard Bauckham. And

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Speaker 1: he talks about this very thing. He He says, this

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Speaker 1: isn't just like John was so saturated in the Old Testament,

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Speaker 1: just kind of came out. This was a deliberate strategy

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Speaker 1: because he's showing how in this final book of the Bible,

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing is how every hope, every longing, every

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Speaker 1: ache is completely fulfilled in that book. All the passages

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Speaker 1: of scripture are pointing there to the final consummation. So

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Speaker 1: it's just a shame that so many of us are

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Speaker 1: terrified of the book and that's the way.

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Speaker 4: I've never been terrified by it i love revelation gives

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Speaker 4: me so much comfort i'm like oh gosh i can't

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Speaker 4: wait um.

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Speaker 1: Yeah oh well and to be fair there are some

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Speaker 1: terrifying images you know uh like demon armies revelation eight

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Speaker 1: and nine you've got beasts one's coming from an abyss

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Speaker 1: one's coming up out of the sea so you have

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Speaker 1: all these monsters in my book i i say it

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Speaker 1: reads some in some parts it reads like a children's

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Speaker 1: pop-up book from hell It's like, whoa, whoa, like certain

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Speaker 1: stories I wouldn't necessarily want to read to children. But

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Speaker 1: part of that is just knowing what we're up against.

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Speaker 1: There is a real battle that's taking place. But the

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Speaker 1: bigger theme is not that like, hey, there's this big

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Speaker 1: battle and we're all going to die. That's not really

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Speaker 1: the theme. The theme is, yeah, we do have some

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Speaker 1: powerful forces coming against us. The world, the devil, his minions, Babylon,

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Speaker 1: we can talk about all those things. We do have

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Speaker 1: some powerful forces fighting against us, but the devil's opposition

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Speaker 1: is greater because he has to face the Holy Trinity.

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Speaker 1: And that's how the book begins is from the father

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Speaker 1: and son and spirit. We receive this revelation.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this short break. Okay.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean, this is a very basic question, but

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Speaker 4: what you say this, you talk about this in the book,

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Speaker 4: what does the word revelation mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The word revelation. I mean, It essentially means, so

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Speaker 1: it's the Greek word apokalypsis, and it could be translated revelation.

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Speaker 1: It's commonly stated by scholars to mean unveiling. You can

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Speaker 1: think of it as something like a pulling back the curtain.

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Speaker 1: And so there's a pulling back of the curtain. And revelation,

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Speaker 1: there's really two senses, because Revelation 1.1, it says, it

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Speaker 1: begins with the revelation of Jesus Christ, which can go...

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Speaker 1: two directions, and I would say it actually means both

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Speaker 1: of these. The first is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: That is the revelation that Jesus gives us about how

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Speaker 1: the end of the age will play out, the revelation

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Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ. But revelation of Jesus Christ can also

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Speaker 1: mean the revelation literally of him, of him in glory.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I write in my book

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Speaker 1: is that if if the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and

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Speaker 1: John give us Christ in his humiliation, no book is

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Speaker 1: more dedicated to the exaltation of King Jesus than the

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Speaker 1: book of Revelation. Now, of course, all the books of

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Speaker 1: the Bible are really pointing toward Jesus. I don't deny that,

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Speaker 1: but in Revelation, we see him in his glory. I mean,

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Speaker 1: right from the start, Revelation chapter one, it's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: the revelation of Jesus Christ. And the next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: John's buckled on the floor and It says he falls

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Speaker 1: to the ground like a dead man. Why? Because he's

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Speaker 1: seen Jesus in glory. And I love that this happens

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Speaker 1: before we meet the monsters. In fact, the ones we

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Speaker 1: get all fretting, scared, terrified about, the beast of the sea,

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Speaker 1: the dragon. The first, you get a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a hint in Revelation 8 and 9. But really, the

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Speaker 1: real introduction to the dragon occurs in Revelation 12. the

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Speaker 1: beast of the sea, Revelation 13, beast of the earth,

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Speaker 1: which is the false prophet, Revelation 13, Revelation 14 is

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Speaker 1: the harlot. You're halfway through the book before you really,

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Speaker 1: really meet the devil and his minions. And you start

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Speaker 1: the book and it's King Jesus in glory. And we

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Speaker 1: start with Jesus, not the monsters, because if we fear him,

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Speaker 1: if we fear the Lord, we have nothing to fear.

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Speaker 1: And so John, the fear of the Lord comes over him.

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Speaker 1: He craters down to the ground. And, uh, and he

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Speaker 1: sees Jesus got like white hair, he eyes of fire

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Speaker 1: and so on. And that's how the, that's how the

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Speaker 1: book begins. And so it's a revelation to him. And

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Speaker 1: as the book progresses, we'll see more revelations of him

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Speaker 1: in glory. We'll see revelation chapter five. He's the lion

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Speaker 1: and the lamb who was slaughtered and revelation, uh, revelation 14.

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Speaker 1: He's the son of man standing on Mount Zion and

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Speaker 1: triumph and glory. In Revelation 19, he's the King of

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Speaker 1: Kings and Lord of Lords, and he's riding on a

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Speaker 1: white horse. And so you see all these images that

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Speaker 1: it's the same Jesus that John leaned his head up

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Speaker 1: against at the Last Supper when there was death looming

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Speaker 1: and it was a very, you know, the cross was

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Speaker 1: on its way just right around the corner. Christ in

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Speaker 1: his humiliation. But then we get Christ and glory and revelation.

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Speaker 1: I love that. And that's a huge part of overcoming

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Speaker 1: the fear. It's a little bit like if a kid's

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Speaker 1: getting beat up by a bully, what will make him

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Speaker 1: not be afraid? Pretending the bully's not there or knowing

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Speaker 1: that there's someone 10 times stronger and more powerful than

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Speaker 1: that bully and he's got your back. That's what revelation

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Speaker 1: is about. Yeah, there are some bullies and you got

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Speaker 1: to deal with them. But guess what? The triune God's

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Speaker 1: got your back. This is the revelation of Jesus Christ

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Speaker 1: and we see him in his glory. So just knowing

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Speaker 1: that really sets the tone for what Revelation is really about.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 4: And you spend a little time on this and explain why.

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Speaker 4: Because what does it mean when John says the time

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Speaker 4: is near?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people debate that. And so you

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Speaker 1: have some groups that we would call preterists, of which

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Speaker 1: there are two categories. Preterist is Latin for basically, like

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Speaker 1: it comes from a Latin word meaning past, which is

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Speaker 1: basically most of this stuff happened in the past. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are full preterist and partial preterist. A full preterist,

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Speaker 1: that's actually heresy. They believe Jesus has already returned. They

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Speaker 1: looked at the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

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Speaker 1: They twist a scripture. In Matthew 26, I believe it's

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Speaker 1: around 64, where Jesus tells Caiaphas from now on, you'll

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Speaker 1: see the son of man riding on the clouds. A

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Speaker 1: reference to Daniel chapter 7. And Jesus is talking about

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Speaker 1: him spiritually coming and judging the temple, judging Jerusalem by

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Speaker 1: destroying the temple. But they make that the end all

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Speaker 1: be all and say like, hey, now we're living in

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Speaker 1: the new heavens, the new earth. No, that's heresy. Because

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Speaker 1: Orthodox doctrine teaches that Jesus is coming back physically. bodily,

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Speaker 1: the resurrected son of man, son of God riding on

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Speaker 1: the clouds. That is a future event. So the predators

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Speaker 1: are wrong on that, the full predators, but there are also,

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Speaker 1: there's a group called partial predators that will say, yeah, there,

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Speaker 1: there is a fulfillment. There are a lot of fulfillments

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Speaker 1: in the first century. The consummation is still in the future,

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Speaker 1: but most of this was for the first century and

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Speaker 1: applied to John and, and, and his context and so on. So, uh, and,

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Speaker 1: and I think that That's valid. We shouldn't read the

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Speaker 1: book of Revelation just to mean like, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: only for the last seven years of history, which many

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Speaker 1: futurists will say. It's just most of the book of

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Speaker 1: Revelation is for the last generation in terms of how

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Speaker 1: it will play out and apply. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's true either, because what I say in my book

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Speaker 1: is we have to be careful not to pin the

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Speaker 1: book of Revelation to the remote past like preterists do.

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Speaker 1: or the remote future like futurists do. And so there's

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Speaker 1: a sense in which I think both are right. I

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Speaker 1: think there is a sense in which, I mean, Revelation

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Speaker 1: had to have applied to the original generation. It's a

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Speaker 1: letter presented to seven historic assemblies inside of Asia Minor.

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Speaker 1: And so these seven literal churches, it had to have

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Speaker 1: meant something for them. It couldn't have been this whole

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Speaker 1: letter about like, hey, you pretty much can ignore most

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Speaker 1: of this because you know, Jesus isn't coming back for

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Speaker 1: thousands of years. No, this is like these enemies, the

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Speaker 1: beasts of sea and the earth and all this and Babylon,

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Speaker 1: like they were fighting against these real monsters, if you will.

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Speaker 1: And so this was part of the motivation is like,

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Speaker 1: Jesus will say, if you want to conquer, you've got

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Speaker 1: to do this. If you want to conquer, you got

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Speaker 1: to do this. So it definitely applied to them in the,

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Speaker 1: in the past, but it also applied in the future.

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Speaker 1: It also applies in the future. And I view a

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Speaker 1: lot of, Like we'll get to this later, the trumpets

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Speaker 1: and bowls as being this sort of cluster of judgments

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Speaker 1: toward the end of the age. So I do think

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Speaker 1: it's also about that. And so I would say like, behold,

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Speaker 1: I am coming soon. Is, is that like, is that

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Speaker 1: the age of fulfillment is upon us? Jesus is coming

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Speaker 1: back truly soon, but in every, he wants every generation

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Speaker 1: to live with that expectation, right? but I don't think

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Speaker 1: that it's speaking exclusively of the moment of his return,

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Speaker 1: but the, but rather the events that have begun to

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Speaker 1: be fulfilled in their day and are continuing to be

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Speaker 1: fulfilled and are ultimately fulfilled in his coming. So I

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Speaker 1: would see it as speaking of kind of like a,

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Speaker 1: a long, um, uh, like a sequence of events rather

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Speaker 1: than exclusively talking about the return of Jesus, if that

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Speaker 1: makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Um, Okay, let's move to Revelation 2. Who is Jezebel?

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Speaker 3: Who is Jezebel in Revelation 2?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Jezebel is.

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Speaker 1: Jezebel in Revelation 2, some will say she's the envoy

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Speaker 1: of Babylon. And so that'll have to be unpacked too.

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Speaker 1: So Jezebel, she is portrayed as a false prophetess slash

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Speaker 1: teacher in the church in Thyatira. And the problem, like,

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Speaker 1: so for all the seven churches, Jesus will have, he'll

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Speaker 1: have a message for each of them. Uh, most of

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Speaker 1: them get rebuked for something and also praised for something. But, uh,

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Speaker 1: although there are two that are only rebuked and not

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Speaker 1: praised and, uh, and two, uh, two that are only,

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Speaker 1: and two that are only praised and not rebuked. I

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Speaker 1: think that's the right numbers anyway, but, uh, but generally

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Speaker 1: it's a rebuke and a praise and, uh, and for

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Speaker 1: the church in, in Thyatira, uh, they, their, their problem,

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Speaker 1: their rebuke was they had tolerated that wicked woman Jezebel, uh,

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Speaker 1: in leading people into sexual immorality and food sacrifice to idols.

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Speaker 1: So it's basically idolatry and sexual immorality. I take sexual

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Speaker 1: immorality to not just mean say like fornication and, and

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Speaker 1: what we typically think of with sexual morality, but throughout revelation,

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Speaker 1: it seems to be a symbol of spiritual compromise. So

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Speaker 1: for instance, Babylon, we'll get to that in a gets

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Speaker 1: the kings of the earth to drink the maddening wine

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Speaker 1: of her adulteries and her sexual immoralities. I don't think,

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Speaker 1: I see Babylon as like the wicked world system, culture, civilization,

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Speaker 1: all of that. And so it's speaking of compromise of

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Speaker 1: political leaders, but I don't think it's just talking about

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Speaker 1: the kings of the earth having sex with Babylon. Like

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Speaker 1: that doesn't even make sense. Babylon being a symbol of

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Speaker 1: civilization and culture, particularly the wicked aspects of it. And

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Speaker 1: so I would say back to Jezebel, she bears a

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Speaker 1: lot of characteristics of Babylon, which comes later, but Jezebel's infection,

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Speaker 1: if you will, occurs inside of the church. And so

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Speaker 1: Jesus warns, if you guys listen to her teaching, you're

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Speaker 1: going to suffer and promises a punishment for Jezebel herself.

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Speaker 1: So I would say, She's an expression of godless culture

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Speaker 1: and compromise. infecting the church. I think that word tolerate's

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Speaker 1: pretty key because in our culture today, tolerance is the

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Speaker 1: big buzzword. If you really love, you tolerate. And you

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Speaker 1: just tolerate whatever. And so Bible-believing churches that say, hey,

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Speaker 1: we actually don't tolerate everything. Love that rejoices in the truth,

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Speaker 1: that hates unrighteousness, 1 Corinthians 13. And so if we

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Speaker 1: want to be people who love, we have to love

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Speaker 1: them enough to tell them the truth that their actions

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Speaker 1: are destroying themselves, destroying others, and they're transgressing the commandments

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Speaker 1: of God. That's actually the most loving thing you can do.

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Speaker 1: If it's true, tell them that. And so you can

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Speaker 1: actually see the infiltration of Jezebel in our churches today.

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Speaker 1: where lots of churches have compromised, for instance, on the

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Speaker 1: issue of, yes, sexual immorality, saying that all kinds of

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Speaker 1: things are okay that aren't okay. That would be an example.

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Speaker 3: Gay marriage is great.

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Speaker 1: What's that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, gay marriage is totally fine.

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Speaker 1: That's what they say.

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Speaker 3: That's what Jezebel says.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so now I want my audience to brace themselves

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Speaker 4: for this next question. Literally brace yourself. Because we're going

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Speaker 4: to talk about the rapture and Michael, where do you,

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Speaker 4: where do you stand on the rapture? What is, where

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Speaker 4: did we get that term? What, when did that idea

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Speaker 4: develop and what century did that idea develop? Just talk

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Speaker 4: about the pre-tribulation rapture.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So the rapture, The rapture means, it's the Latin

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Speaker 1: word rapturo, which means caught up. And it actually does

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Speaker 1: come from a verse in the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4.17.

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Speaker 1: I'm pulling it up now. It says this. And so

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Speaker 1: it's talking about what's going to happen when Jesus comes back.

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Speaker 1: It says, then we who are alive, who are left,

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Speaker 1: will be caught up together with them in the cloud.

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Speaker 1: So he said that when Christ returns, the dead in

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Speaker 1: Christ will rise. will be raised first. So Jesus returns.

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Speaker 1: Those who have already died, well, their body's in a

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Speaker 1: grave somewhere, or maybe it's been cremated, whatever's happened to

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Speaker 1: their body. It's on earth physically somewhere, even if it's

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Speaker 1: just a few remaining molecules spread around, their body is

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Speaker 1: in some form or fashion remaining on the earth and

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Speaker 1: their spirit goes to heaven. Second Corinthians five, it says

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Speaker 1: that if we're absent from the body, we're present with

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Speaker 1: the Lord. Your spirit goes straight to heaven when you die,

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Speaker 1: if you know the Lord Jesus. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: I hope you do. I hope you've put your faith

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Speaker 1: in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for your sins. He

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Speaker 1: paid the penalty for your sins. And then three days later,

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Speaker 1: he rose again so that he could give you eternal life.

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Speaker 1: But we have to trust him and we have to repent.

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Speaker 1: Those who have are called. What's that?

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Speaker 4: That's amazing because at the end of my notes on

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Speaker 4: page five, I say, ask Michael to give a gospel presentation.

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Speaker 3: Go ahead.

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Speaker 1: That's a truncated form, but I like what Charles Spurgeon

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Speaker 1: said in regards to preaching. He said, always have enough

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Speaker 1: of the blood of Jesus in your sermon to get

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Speaker 1: a sinner saved. And I always land big on the

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Speaker 1: gospel because otherwise I think preaching becomes moralism. But that's

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Speaker 1: another soapbox for another day.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but I cut you off. You were about to say,

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Speaker 4: so those who are in Christ, what.

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Speaker 3: Did you say?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So when you die... If you love the Lord, if

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Speaker 1: you know the Lord, your spirit goes straight to heaven.

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Speaker 1: But there's still a future resurrection. Like your eternal future

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Speaker 1: is not a disembodied experience in a spiritual place called heaven.

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Speaker 1: Your eternal future is physical on a renewed heaven and earth.

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Speaker 1: So in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Well,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the age, he's going to recreate

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Speaker 1: the heavens and the earth. It's going to be brand new,

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Speaker 1: restored heaven. physical. So you could think of it as

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Speaker 1: though he's resurrecting our planet and he's resurrecting our bodies.

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Speaker 1: And so the two homes, the planet in which we live,

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Speaker 1: the body in which we live, will both be resurrected

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Speaker 1: at Christ's return. So in 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul's talking

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Speaker 1: about the sequence and he says, the dead in Christ

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Speaker 1: will be raised first. So their spirits in heaven will

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Speaker 1: somehow be reunited with ashes or bone or whatever remains,

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Speaker 1: and they'll receive a glorified body that will resemble that

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Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ's body. Daniel 12 says that we'll shine

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Speaker 1: like the stars in heaven. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 says

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Speaker 1: that our body will be like Jesus' body. Same with

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Speaker 1: Philippians chapter 3, our lowly body will be made like

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Speaker 1: his glorious body. And so the dead in Christ will

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Speaker 1: be raised first, but then those who are alive at

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Speaker 1: the time of Christ, it's Christ's return. So picture Jesus

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Speaker 1: is coming across the clouds of heaven, from east to west,

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Speaker 1: Matthew 24. He's skating across the clouds. Just remember, Acts

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Speaker 1: chapter 1, he's going to return just like he came,

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Speaker 1: or just like he left. And so that is physically

428
00:25:05,290 --> 00:25:10,090
Speaker 1: and bodily, full preterists, absolutely wrong, heresy. Anybody ever claims

429
00:25:10,150 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: to be Jesus, even if they're performing miracles, don't believe it.

430
00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: Jesus is coming back physically, bodily, riding on the clouds

431
00:25:16,619 --> 00:25:20,590
Speaker 1: of with myriads upon myriads of angels, with the sound

432
00:25:20,609 --> 00:25:22,949
Speaker 1: of an archangel. It's going to be loud. It's going

433
00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: to be bright. It's going to be unmistakable. And this

434
00:25:27,150 --> 00:25:29,940
Speaker 1: verse says, the dead in Christ will be raised. People

435
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: will be flying up into the sky to meet Jesus.

436
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,580
Speaker 1: Other people will be coming from heaven and receive glorified by... Like,

437
00:25:35,619 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: this is a spectacular event. This is better than any

438
00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: 4th of July firework show you have ever seen. And

439
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,710
Speaker 1: it says... Then we who are alive, who are left,

440
00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:50,469
Speaker 1: will be caught up together. That's Latin, rapturo. And remember,

441
00:25:51,310 --> 00:25:53,770
Speaker 1: you know, with the Roman Catholic Church being located in

442
00:25:53,869 --> 00:25:57,260
Speaker 1: Rome and Jerome translated the Bible into Latin, we call

443
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:01,220
Speaker 1: it the Latin Vulgate. People were used to reading this

444
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,900
Speaker 1: word as rapturo. It's where we get rapture. It means

445
00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:07,060
Speaker 1: to be caught up with the clouds to meet the

446
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,979
Speaker 1: Lord in the air. So we will always be with

447
00:26:10,030 --> 00:26:12,770
Speaker 1: the Lord. Therefore, encourage one another with these words. Now,

448
00:26:12,810 --> 00:26:16,310
Speaker 1: there are various ways of understanding this passage. You mentioned

449
00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:22,970
Speaker 1: pre-tribulation rapture. This would fall within a category we would

450
00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:27,149
Speaker 1: call futurists. It would also fall within a category we

451
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:33,550
Speaker 1: would call dispensationalists. Dispensationalists believe that history played out over

452
00:26:33,850 --> 00:26:38,610
Speaker 1: dispensations that occurred over time. And they believe that what

453
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:41,530
Speaker 1: we're living in right now is sort of a parenthesis

454
00:26:41,550 --> 00:26:46,690
Speaker 1: of so that God's program that had been underway for

455
00:26:46,810 --> 00:26:52,409
Speaker 1: Israel was paused. The church was introduced as a great parentheses.

456
00:26:53,290 --> 00:26:55,130
Speaker 1: And they would, they would, they get this from Daniel

457
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:58,930
Speaker 1: chapter nine verses 24 through 27, where Daniel has 70 weeks,

458
00:26:58,930 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: 70 weeks of years, 490 years. And, and so they, they,

459
00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:11,540
Speaker 1: By their calculation, there's 483 years from a certain decree

460
00:27:11,580 --> 00:27:16,990
Speaker 1: of Nehemiah to Christ's triumphal entry. And so that was

461
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:22,090
Speaker 1: sort of the culminating time for Israel, 483 years. But

462
00:27:22,130 --> 00:27:27,470
Speaker 1: there was one remaining seven-year period that they say Daniel

463
00:27:27,490 --> 00:27:30,909
Speaker 1: never addressed. And if you've ever read the Left Behind

464
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:33,429
Speaker 1: books or seen the movies, if you ever read the

465
00:27:33,470 --> 00:27:36,450
Speaker 1: late great planet earth, which was the bestselling nonfiction book

466
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:40,369
Speaker 1: of the 1970s. It's all along these lines. That's what

467
00:27:40,410 --> 00:27:44,930
Speaker 1: they believe. And you can kind of tell, I don't

468
00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:48,510
Speaker 1: believe it, but I love people who believe that. And

469
00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:51,450
Speaker 1: I have dear friends who believe it and members of

470
00:27:51,490 --> 00:27:53,810
Speaker 1: my church who believe it, but I don't believe in

471
00:27:53,850 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: a pre-tribulation rapture. And so we're going to get to

472
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: that part where So if Daniel said 490 years and

473
00:28:01,420 --> 00:28:05,820
Speaker 1: they say, well, it was 483 till the culminating moment

474
00:28:05,859 --> 00:28:09,310
Speaker 1: with Jesus. And then we're in this long parentheses that

475
00:28:09,369 --> 00:28:13,969
Speaker 1: is undefined where the prophetic clock on Israel stopped. And

476
00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:16,650
Speaker 1: that seven years is just sort of floating and waiting.

477
00:28:17,050 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: And when the time of the Gentiles is complete and

478
00:28:19,950 --> 00:28:22,900
Speaker 1: all the Gentiles come in, they say, God will shift

479
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: back to his focus on Israel in the last seven

480
00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: years of history and And it will be, that's what

481
00:28:29,380 --> 00:28:35,550
Speaker 1: they call the Great Tribulation. So dispensationalists, because it's like

482
00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:38,430
Speaker 1: they've got this dispensation for Jews and Gentiles and back

483
00:28:38,470 --> 00:28:41,550
Speaker 1: to Jews. And so that's how they think. There's the

484
00:28:41,730 --> 00:28:45,030
Speaker 1: strong distinction between Israel and the church. Like, hey, God's

485
00:28:45,050 --> 00:28:48,590
Speaker 1: got his program for the church during these last 2,000 years.

486
00:28:48,670 --> 00:28:51,340
Speaker 1: But then he's going to go back to Israel. All

487
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: of that is part of dispensational theology. It's one of

488
00:28:56,060 --> 00:29:00,690
Speaker 1: a few versions of futurism. And so to come back

489
00:29:00,730 --> 00:29:04,820
Speaker 1: to the rapture passage, they would say the rapture is

490
00:29:05,020 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: actually part A of the second coming. To many, it

491
00:29:11,260 --> 00:29:15,970
Speaker 1: sounds like there are three comings of Christ for the dispensationalist. One,

492
00:29:15,970 --> 00:29:22,350
Speaker 1: 2,000 years ago. Two, the rapture, which takes believers up

493
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:26,969
Speaker 1: into heaven. And they dine with Jesus in glory and

494
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,700
Speaker 1: peace and comfort. Meanwhile, over that next seven years, God's

495
00:29:32,740 --> 00:29:36,830
Speaker 1: going to start saving a whole bunch of especially Jewish people.

496
00:29:37,490 --> 00:29:40,390
Speaker 1: And not that no Gentiles will be saved during that. time,

497
00:29:40,450 --> 00:29:45,390
Speaker 1: but especially Jewish people because God's reinitiating his program for Israel.

498
00:29:46,090 --> 00:29:50,100
Speaker 1: And so, believers, we're just raptured in heaven. And if

499
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: you've seen the Left Behind movies, you know, people are

500
00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: driving airplanes, people are driving cars, and they just fly

501
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:58,620
Speaker 1: up into the sky. Their clothes are left behind, et cetera,

502
00:29:58,660 --> 00:30:00,890
Speaker 1: and everybody's trying to figure it out. Earth goes to

503
00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:04,990
Speaker 1: total pot. Antichrist rises to power. Seven years of hell

504
00:30:05,210 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: on earth. God's, you know, like Christians are up in

505
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:12,220
Speaker 1: heaven celebrating, having a great time. Earth's going to just

506
00:30:13,460 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: total pot. And Antichrist rises to power. Like I said,

507
00:30:18,220 --> 00:30:20,770
Speaker 1: makes a covenant with the people. Daniel 9 type stuff.

508
00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:24,850
Speaker 1: And then there's a rebuilt temple. Lots more that I

509
00:30:24,870 --> 00:30:27,090
Speaker 1: could say about it. And then at the end of

510
00:30:27,270 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: all that, Christ returns. in glory. And so they would,

511
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: they would say, well, it's really like part a part

512
00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:37,180
Speaker 1: B of the second coming separated by seven years. So

513
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,060
Speaker 1: they would say first Thessalonians four 17 about the rapture.

514
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,610
Speaker 1: That's what it's about. It's about what happens before Jesus, uh,

515
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,620
Speaker 1: before that last seven year great tribulation, Jesus saves us

516
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: from the great tribulation and a bunch of Jewish people,

517
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: especially get saved during the great tribulation. And then Christ

518
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,270
Speaker 1: returns in glory. one key aspect of it is that

519
00:30:59,310 --> 00:31:04,490
Speaker 1: the rapture is kind of secret. In their view, Jesus

520
00:31:04,550 --> 00:31:06,530
Speaker 1: comes back and it's kind of like, hey, come on

521
00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:08,430
Speaker 1: up here. And we all just fly up and then

522
00:31:08,670 --> 00:31:12,290
Speaker 1: go away to heaven. And so I find this untenable.

523
00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:17,370
Speaker 1: I don't, I'll put it like this. I don't judge

524
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:19,350
Speaker 1: anyone who holds this view. I don't think they're evil.

525
00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:21,790
Speaker 1: I don't think they're bad. And I don't think they're dumb.

526
00:31:22,910 --> 00:31:26,850
Speaker 1: So what I would say is I think it's really

527
00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:31,500
Speaker 1: hard to point to the Bible and say the second

528
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: coming occurs kind of twice. It's hard to deny that

529
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: a seven year difference really looks like a second and

530
00:31:40,270 --> 00:31:45,050
Speaker 1: third coming. In addition, in that passage in first Thessalonians

531
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:48,210
Speaker 1: chapter four, when it says, when it says that we'll

532
00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:50,730
Speaker 1: be caught up and we'll meet the Lord in the air.

533
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:53,290
Speaker 1: And I have a section in my book where I

534
00:31:53,330 --> 00:31:57,490
Speaker 1: talk about this and, There is a scholar at Denver

535
00:31:57,510 --> 00:32:01,610
Speaker 1: Seminary named Craig Blomberg. He talks about this and he

536
00:32:01,670 --> 00:32:04,660
Speaker 1: says that Greek word for meet, meet the Lord in

537
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,740
Speaker 1: the air. He says this was the normal Greek word

538
00:32:07,980 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: at the time to describe how if a king or

539
00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:15,860
Speaker 1: an ambassador, like a foreign dignitary was coming into your city,

540
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,180
Speaker 1: you wouldn't just like wait around for him to show

541
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,930
Speaker 1: up like, oh, you know, King Caesar's knocking on the door.

542
00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:25,190
Speaker 1: You'd roll out the red carpet. You'd send your retinue out.

543
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:29,550
Speaker 1: You'd have a big celebration, and you would send them

544
00:32:29,650 --> 00:32:33,170
Speaker 1: out to meet him, same Greek word, to meet Caesar,

545
00:32:33,410 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: to meet the foreign dignitary, whoever it was, and to

546
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: welcome them back in the city with a big old parade.

547
00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: So that was the purpose. And so what I would say,

548
00:32:41,660 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: the purpose of the rapture is not to prevent God's

549
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,510
Speaker 1: people from suffering. Acts 14.22, it's through many afflictions we

550
00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:51,850
Speaker 1: enter the kingdom of God. The purpose of rapture is

551
00:32:51,910 --> 00:32:55,390
Speaker 1: not to prevent us from suffering. The purpose of the

552
00:32:55,470 --> 00:33:00,330
Speaker 1: rapture is that we might welcome King Jesus back to

553
00:33:00,370 --> 00:33:02,950
Speaker 1: the earth. Because as I say in my earth, Jesus

554
00:33:03,010 --> 00:33:06,770
Speaker 1: deserves a parade. We're rolling out the red carpet for

555
00:33:06,890 --> 00:33:08,590
Speaker 1: our King and we're coming back. We're actually going to

556
00:33:08,650 --> 00:33:12,490
Speaker 1: live physically here. So I don't believe in a part

557
00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:15,290
Speaker 1: a part B of the second coming of Jesus. So

558
00:33:15,310 --> 00:33:16,670
Speaker 1: when somebody says, do you believe in the rapture? I

559
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:17,950
Speaker 1: hear a lot of people say, I don't believe in

560
00:33:17,970 --> 00:33:20,489
Speaker 1: the rapture. Well, I think, I don't like that way

561
00:33:20,530 --> 00:33:21,970
Speaker 1: of saying it. What they usually mean by that is

562
00:33:22,010 --> 00:33:25,650
Speaker 1: I don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I would just,

563
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:28,940
Speaker 1: I would say, I think we all believe in a

564
00:33:28,980 --> 00:33:32,860
Speaker 1: rapture because as a Christian, we believe 1 Thessalonians 4.17.

565
00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: The question is not whether we're caught up with the

566
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,300
Speaker 1: Lord in the air. The question is when. And I

567
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: would say not seven years before a great tribulation. I

568
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,060
Speaker 1: would say when Jesus returns, we're caught up with the

569
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: Lord in the air and we come back down to

570
00:33:47,420 --> 00:33:51,450
Speaker 1: the earth to welcome our King. And so we differ

571
00:33:51,490 --> 00:33:54,330
Speaker 1: in timing. Now there's one other category called the pre-wrath

572
00:33:54,490 --> 00:33:56,850
Speaker 1: rapture that says, well, we'll be here for a little

573
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:59,850
Speaker 1: bit of the great tribulation rapture or great tribulation, but

574
00:34:00,210 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: not all of it. Some point after the second Thessalonians

575
00:34:03,820 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: chapter two, verses three and four, I call it the

576
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:14,060
Speaker 1: two signs that the end is nigh. One I call

577
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,259
Speaker 1: the temple blasphemy rapture. a man of lawlessness and antichrist

578
00:34:19,340 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: figure sets himself up in the temple and declares himself God.

579
00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:28,270
Speaker 1: It's an allusion to Daniel chapter 11. And so, uh,

580
00:34:28,370 --> 00:34:31,350
Speaker 1: and so that's one, there's this like great abomination. Some

581
00:34:31,390 --> 00:34:34,590
Speaker 1: say it's the symbolic temple is in, it's in the church.

582
00:34:34,630 --> 00:34:37,130
Speaker 1: Some say a temple will be rebuilt and it'll happen there. I,

583
00:34:37,570 --> 00:34:39,649
Speaker 1: I think I'm kind of agnostic on it. I don't know,

584
00:34:39,790 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: but if someone's getting a giant following and creating, you know,

585
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,420
Speaker 1: doing a bunch of signs and wonders and claiming to

586
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:49,610
Speaker 1: be God, I'm going to be like, that's it. Right. And, uh,

587
00:34:49,790 --> 00:34:52,290
Speaker 1: and then the other one is the great apostasy and

588
00:34:52,330 --> 00:34:55,629
Speaker 1: those go together. This figure will lead tons and tons

589
00:34:55,690 --> 00:34:58,950
Speaker 1: of people astray. And so there are some who say

590
00:34:59,010 --> 00:35:04,050
Speaker 1: like sometime after that, then, uh, you know, or around

591
00:35:04,090 --> 00:35:07,700
Speaker 1: that the pre-wrath rapture will occur before like God's final

592
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: judgments are poured out on the earth. Uh, I think

593
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: we're on the earth until Jesus comes back. I think

594
00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: we're caught up in the air until Jesus comes back.

595
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,190
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a secret rapture pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation. I

596
00:35:20,850 --> 00:35:23,469
Speaker 1: think we go through the tribulation. And as I say

597
00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:25,750
Speaker 1: in my book, the tribulation actually serves a purpose. When

598
00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:28,590
Speaker 1: you read the book of Daniel, suffering serves a purpose

599
00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:33,430
Speaker 1: for God's last days people. And the way I say

600
00:35:33,450 --> 00:35:37,460
Speaker 1: it in my book is suffering prevents the bride of

601
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: Christ from becoming bridezilla. It has a purifying effect on

602
00:35:41,739 --> 00:35:44,020
Speaker 1: the church. And if you look at the church today,

603
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,930
Speaker 1: it's maybe not all that impressive but the bride is

604
00:35:46,989 --> 00:35:48,529
Speaker 1: going to be ready. And part of the way the

605
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:50,670
Speaker 1: bride gets ready is actually through pain. And if you

606
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:54,169
Speaker 1: think about your own life, most of our sanctification, most

607
00:35:54,190 --> 00:35:58,450
Speaker 1: of our conformity of Christ came because life hurts bad.

608
00:35:59,060 --> 00:36:02,580
Speaker 1: And God uses that if we humble ourselves. And so

609
00:36:02,860 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: the last day's church will be ready for Christ's return

610
00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 1: because it'll be a painful last few years.

611
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

612
00:36:08,540 --> 00:36:13,260
Speaker 4: And last point on the pre-tribulation rapture is that wasn't

613
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,550
Speaker 4: popularized until like the 1830s, right? And What was the

614
00:36:17,610 --> 00:36:21,570
Speaker 4: historical understanding before that in the church?

615
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,300
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a guy named John Nelson Darby in 1830,

616
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:33,300
Speaker 1: I believe it was, began teaching a systemized version of this,

617
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,859
Speaker 1: pretty much just what I told you. And that's where

618
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: it really started. Then the Schofield Reference Bible came out,

619
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,500
Speaker 1: and Schofield and Darby kind of, it was very influenced

620
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: by Darby, and it was like an incorporation incredibly popular

621
00:36:46,980 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: study Bible. And so a lot of people started becoming dispensationalists.

622
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,220
Speaker 1: And if you just pay attention to church history, there's

623
00:36:54,260 --> 00:36:58,030
Speaker 1: just been a change in the eschatology of the church.

624
00:36:58,390 --> 00:37:00,910
Speaker 1: Because there are a lot of questions, not all of

625
00:37:00,969 --> 00:37:05,950
Speaker 1: it's perfectly clear. Dispensationalism and this idea of a pre-trib

626
00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 1: rapture doesn't seem to have existed at all before 1830.

627
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,870
Speaker 1: And then after 1830, began to grow and grow, and

628
00:37:15,930 --> 00:37:19,590
Speaker 1: especially with Hal Lindsey's late Great Planet Earth, then especially,

629
00:37:19,730 --> 00:37:24,790
Speaker 1: especially with the Left Behind movies, sold millions upon millions

630
00:37:24,810 --> 00:37:28,830
Speaker 1: of books. So it's kind of novel. And now, with

631
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:32,569
Speaker 1: that said, a dispensationalist scholar whom I really respect, his

632
00:37:32,610 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: name is Michael Spiegel. He is from Dallas Theological Seminary.

633
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,739
Speaker 1: And he has a quote from Irenaeus, a church father

634
00:37:40,780 --> 00:37:43,890
Speaker 1: in the second century, who does seem to talk about

635
00:37:44,130 --> 00:37:48,230
Speaker 1: saints getting assumed into heaven at some point, perhaps before

636
00:37:48,250 --> 00:37:51,609
Speaker 1: a tribulation. But then he has other saints who live

637
00:37:51,650 --> 00:37:55,340
Speaker 1: through it, and so it's kind of confusing. So I'm

638
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: not going to go so far as to say no

639
00:37:57,140 --> 00:38:01,620
Speaker 1: church father ever referred to any kind of assumption into heaven,

640
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:04,299
Speaker 1: rapture into heaven. I'm just going to say it was

641
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:12,210
Speaker 1: never systematized before, and almost totally absent until the year 1830.

642
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,859
Speaker 4: From what I understand about the Schofield Bible, a lot

643
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:22,180
Speaker 4: of preachers in America started using that Bible. And I guess,

644
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,180
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm wrong, but commentaries were not

645
00:38:25,260 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 4: readily available. So they would actually use Schofield's notes in

646
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 4: the margins to preach from. And so if Schofield was

647
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,890
Speaker 4: saying there's a preacher of rapture, then that's how it

648
00:38:36,930 --> 00:38:38,790
Speaker 4: became so popular.

649
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:44,630
Speaker 1: Right. Absolutely. Yeah, that's absolutely how it happened. And I'm

650
00:38:44,670 --> 00:38:47,370
Speaker 1: not saying... Schofield did a lot of good for the Lord.

651
00:38:47,969 --> 00:38:50,330
Speaker 1: And I think it's great that he created that Bible.

652
00:38:51,090 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: The study notes within the Bible. Not pulling a Joseph

653
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,089
Speaker 1: Smith here and talking about new scriptures. But actually... Like

654
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,870
Speaker 1: on that point, that's actually my biggest thing with pre-tribulation

655
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:11,130
Speaker 1: rapture is I think novel views of the end. Like

656
00:39:11,230 --> 00:39:14,350
Speaker 1: I don't want new teaching. New teaching is pretty much

657
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:19,310
Speaker 1: never good. Like I want the old truths. I want

658
00:39:19,350 --> 00:39:22,529
Speaker 1: the old rugged cross. Just give me like what's been

659
00:39:22,590 --> 00:39:27,930
Speaker 1: taught and passed down through history. Um, not just novelty,

660
00:39:27,989 --> 00:39:30,739
Speaker 1: not good. And I see a lot of novelty in

661
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,420
Speaker 1: the end time space. I mean, just think of, and

662
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: I'm not considering dispensationalists at all Mormons because, uh, dispensationalists

663
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: are in the kingdom. I'll be hanging out and sharing

664
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,500
Speaker 1: meals with them in eternity. Uh, not so with Mormons

665
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: because Mormonism is a cult. They don't believe Jesus is

666
00:39:48,989 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: actually God. Uh, they believe he was created among other things.

667
00:39:53,969 --> 00:39:56,820
Speaker 1: And so not the same, but they do call themselves

668
00:39:56,900 --> 00:40:00,620
Speaker 1: the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. There

669
00:40:00,660 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: tends to be a lot of novelty around the subject

670
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,299
Speaker 1: of the end times. And I want far away from that.

671
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 3: Yes. Um, okay.

672
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:14,020
Speaker 4: So let's get to, uh, why you mentioned this in the,

673
00:40:14,140 --> 00:40:19,430
Speaker 4: in your book, uh, numbers, but why does the number

674
00:40:19,489 --> 00:40:23,390
Speaker 4: seven appear so many times? You say like 50 times

675
00:40:23,450 --> 00:40:27,070
Speaker 4: in the book of Revelation. And I mean, this is very,

676
00:40:27,350 --> 00:40:29,690
Speaker 4: just what does it mean? What does that number mean, seven?

677
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, seven means, I mean, it's God's perfect number, perfection, completion.

678
00:40:37,860 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: So for instance, when we come across seven churches in

679
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,709
Speaker 1: Revelation two and three, So these weren't the only seven.

680
00:40:45,770 --> 00:40:48,430
Speaker 1: I mean, there were way more than seven churches in

681
00:40:48,450 --> 00:40:51,980
Speaker 1: that day, but John chose seven to direct his letters to.

682
00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:56,020
Speaker 1: So seven was real. It was literal. It was historical.

683
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,899
Speaker 1: These churches actually existed at the same time. It was

684
00:41:00,060 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: symbolic and it was symbolic of the complete church of

685
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ throughout the age. That's why I don't want

686
00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:11,290
Speaker 1: to pin revelation entirely to the remote past or entirely

687
00:41:11,410 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: to the last seven years of history. Because seven represents

688
00:41:16,020 --> 00:41:18,850
Speaker 1: the complete church. The whole book of Revelation was written

689
00:41:18,890 --> 00:41:21,230
Speaker 1: for you. The whole book of Revelation was written for me.

690
00:41:21,290 --> 00:41:24,430
Speaker 1: It's written for all of us and has applications that

691
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 1: play out in our everyday lives. And I'm afraid that

692
00:41:30,380 --> 00:41:31,739
Speaker 1: if we say, oh, well, this is just for those

693
00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: people dealing with the Romans or if you're dispensational, this

694
00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:40,740
Speaker 1: is just for when a revived Roman empire comes back

695
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,950
Speaker 1: on the scene and a revived Caesar comes back on

696
00:41:42,989 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: the scene and it's great tribulate. Like I'm like, but,

697
00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:47,860
Speaker 1: but what about now? This is meant to give us

698
00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: hope now. And so seven is a, is a number

699
00:41:50,620 --> 00:41:51,339
Speaker 1: of completion.

700
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:51,660
Speaker 2: Yeah.

701
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:55,060
Speaker 1: You mentioned, yeah, over 50 times in the book of revelation,

702
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,050
Speaker 1: the number seven is used and, uh, and it's just a,

703
00:41:58,140 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: it's a symbolic number that means completion.

704
00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:01,819
Speaker 3: Yeah.

705
00:42:02,420 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 4: And, uh, who are the, and well, I don't know

706
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,100
Speaker 4: if I should ask this one. Um, Well, okay, in

707
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,500
Speaker 4: Revelation 7, who are the 144,000?

708
00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:19,420
Speaker 1: Yeah, the 144,000. Well, so let's back up a little bit,

709
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: and I want to get us there, okay? So Revelation 1,

710
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,930
Speaker 1: big vision of Jesus. He's revealed as a high priest,

711
00:42:26,590 --> 00:42:28,450
Speaker 1: and that is because in chapters 2 and 3, the

712
00:42:28,969 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: churches are symbolically called lampstands. Think temple. Temples have lampstands. Well,

713
00:42:34,340 --> 00:42:36,980
Speaker 1: the church is God's light in the world. And Jesus

714
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: is our great high priest is trimming the week, the,

715
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,540
Speaker 1: the wick of our lamps so that they continue to

716
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: shine through the darkness of these last days. And there

717
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,020
Speaker 1: is some darkness, but we shine. And so then you

718
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,020
Speaker 1: get into chapters four and five and you have chapter the, the,

719
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,500
Speaker 1: the throne is prominent in both. Uh, it's like, uh,

720
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: it's a picture of the throne room of heaven. And

721
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: so first you have God, the father seated on the throne.

722
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,140
Speaker 1: Then you have God the Son standing. So the Father seated,

723
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,339
Speaker 1: the Son standing. That speaks of the Father's sovereignty. So

724
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:14,620
Speaker 1: all the horrific things that occur throughout history and that's

725
00:43:14,890 --> 00:43:17,430
Speaker 1: clustered toward the end of the age, God the Father

726
00:43:17,469 --> 00:43:20,850
Speaker 1: is sovereign over all of it. And then in chapter 5,

727
00:43:20,850 --> 00:43:24,900
Speaker 1: God the Son, called the Lamb who was slain, conquered it.

728
00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:27,669
Speaker 1: John wants us to know all of these things before

729
00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:29,890
Speaker 1: we get to some of the mess that follows. It's like, hey,

730
00:43:30,530 --> 00:43:33,350
Speaker 1: God the Father is sovereign. God the Son is conquered.

731
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,890
Speaker 1: And so the reason Revelation 5 is particularly important to

732
00:43:37,930 --> 00:43:41,390
Speaker 1: answer your question about chapter 7 is because there's something

733
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:45,890
Speaker 1: parallel that happens between the two. And interpreting Revelation, what

734
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:47,589
Speaker 1: I find is a lot of people want to look

735
00:43:47,650 --> 00:43:51,089
Speaker 1: to the news headlines to interpret Revelation. But the place

736
00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 1: to look is we interpret Scripture with Scripture. And so

737
00:43:55,420 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: John will speak in parallel. So for instance, Revelation chapter 5,

738
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,690
Speaker 1: John is sobbing. And the reason John is sobbing is

739
00:44:03,730 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: because God the Father is holding a scroll, and that

740
00:44:07,410 --> 00:44:12,009
Speaker 1: scroll contains divine intel. This is God's plan for making

741
00:44:12,050 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: the world right, for redeeming the world. If Revelation 4

742
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:21,339
Speaker 1: is about God's sovereignty over creation, Revelation 5 is about

743
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: his sovereign means of redemption through the Son. And so

744
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,419
Speaker 1: John is sobbing, and the reason is that plan can't

745
00:44:29,460 --> 00:44:33,490
Speaker 1: be fulfilled unless a conqueror is found. And And there's,

746
00:44:34,290 --> 00:44:37,710
Speaker 1: you know, angelic beings that are searching and they can't find, like,

747
00:44:38,590 --> 00:44:41,390
Speaker 1: who's going to open the scroll? Who's worthy to open

748
00:44:41,410 --> 00:44:43,670
Speaker 1: the scroll? Not even God the Father can open the

749
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:48,009
Speaker 1: scroll because he ordained from the beginning that redemption would

750
00:44:48,170 --> 00:44:52,050
Speaker 1: occur through a son, through an offspring of a woman.

751
00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:56,430
Speaker 1: And so God's powerful enough, the Father, and yet even

752
00:44:56,469 --> 00:44:59,130
Speaker 1: God is limited by something. He's limited by his own promises.

753
00:44:59,950 --> 00:45:03,570
Speaker 1: And as we read Revelation, we see that it's promised

754
00:45:03,610 --> 00:45:09,730
Speaker 1: that an offspring of woman, that's Genesis 3.15, we see

755
00:45:10,130 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: that someone from the tribe of Judah, someone from David's descendants,

756
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: a Davidic king, has to be the one who conquered.

757
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,420
Speaker 1: And so the angelic beings are looking, and finally he hears.

758
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,850
Speaker 1: He hears that there is a conqueror. And he hears

759
00:45:29,930 --> 00:45:33,090
Speaker 1: that that conqueror is the lion of the tribe of Judah,

760
00:45:33,110 --> 00:45:35,589
Speaker 1: the one who fulfilled all of these promises, who can

761
00:45:35,650 --> 00:45:38,990
Speaker 1: finally make the world right, who can redeem all things

762
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:41,870
Speaker 1: and all of our pain, the one who can drain

763
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:44,410
Speaker 1: the world of wickedness, the one who can draw John's tears.

764
00:45:44,860 --> 00:45:47,590
Speaker 1: It's finally here. He hears of the lion of the

765
00:45:47,620 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: tribe of Judah. And so you could imagine what John's picturing,

766
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:59,190
Speaker 1: Mufasa or Aslan-like, Aslan-like lion pouncing on the bad guys,

767
00:45:59,610 --> 00:46:03,270
Speaker 1: beating up Rome, taking over the world. This was the

768
00:46:03,690 --> 00:46:08,110
Speaker 1: Jewish expectation. A military messiah who would conquer the bad guys,

769
00:46:08,219 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: symbolized by a lion. So he hears that there's a lion,

770
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: but what he sees is very different. He sees a lamb.

771
00:46:16,739 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: A lamb that's standing, but a lamb that had been slaughtered.

772
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: He's standing because he conquered death. And it's hard to

773
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,210
Speaker 1: get any... more of a contrast than lion and lamb.

774
00:46:30,110 --> 00:46:33,430
Speaker 1: And what he's showing us is that, yes, Jesus came

775
00:46:33,890 --> 00:46:37,620
Speaker 1: as the conquering Messiah, but he conquered differently than everyone thought.

776
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:41,020
Speaker 1: You thought he was going to be the military Messiah

777
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,380
Speaker 1: symbolized by a lion. Instead, he was a martyr Messiah,

778
00:46:45,860 --> 00:46:48,339
Speaker 1: a lamb who was slain, but he conquered death by

779
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,460
Speaker 1: rising again and putting into effect his plan for making

780
00:46:52,500 --> 00:46:56,090
Speaker 1: the world right. That's what makes him a worthy conqueror.

781
00:46:57,150 --> 00:47:01,469
Speaker 1: And so my point here is that Jesus isn't a

782
00:47:01,590 --> 00:47:05,140
Speaker 1: lamb instead of a lion. He's actually both. He's a,

783
00:47:05,660 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: he's a lion because of his lamb. The way I

784
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,899
Speaker 1: worded in my book is that his lamb like sacrifice

785
00:47:11,219 --> 00:47:16,130
Speaker 1: secures his lion like victory. And so, uh, but it,

786
00:47:16,390 --> 00:47:19,390
Speaker 1: but what it's doing is it's adjusting Israel's in time expectation.

787
00:47:19,550 --> 00:47:21,590
Speaker 1: And that'll happen a few times in revelation. It happens

788
00:47:21,630 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: again in revelation seven. Revelation 7 is a highly debated

789
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,610
Speaker 1: text and it comes right after in Revelation 6. There

790
00:47:30,670 --> 00:47:34,290
Speaker 1: are all these plagues poured out and the Son of

791
00:47:34,330 --> 00:47:37,549
Speaker 1: God is about to return and people are crying out

792
00:47:37,590 --> 00:47:39,910
Speaker 1: for the rocks to fall on them saying, you know,

793
00:47:39,969 --> 00:47:42,100
Speaker 1: who can save us from the wrath of God Almighty

794
00:47:42,380 --> 00:47:44,900
Speaker 1: and from the Lamb? And so it's like they're aware

795
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: Jesus is coming back. Who can save us? Chapter 7 answers,

796
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: the sealed servants of God. When wrath is poured out

797
00:47:53,900 --> 00:48:00,109
Speaker 1: upon the earth, God's people, sealed, will be saved. But interestingly,

798
00:48:00,140 --> 00:48:01,550
Speaker 1: in Revelation 7, they're portrayed as 144,000, numbered as 12

799
00:48:01,550 --> 00:48:02,710
Speaker 1: tribes of 12,000 each. And so, like, who are these people?

800
00:48:02,730 --> 00:48:04,650
Speaker 1: In fact, Revelation 7 plays out in two scenes. These

801
00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: 144,000 numbered Jewish tribes are scene one. Scene two, it's

802
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:28,410
Speaker 1: just like shifts, real suddenly. And it follows the same

803
00:48:28,469 --> 00:48:32,930
Speaker 1: sequence we saw in Revelation 5, where John heard of

804
00:48:32,989 --> 00:48:37,529
Speaker 1: a lion, but then saw a lamb. Well, here he

805
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:43,210
Speaker 1: heard numbered Jewish tribes, but then he turns to see,

806
00:48:43,770 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: and what does he see? Innumerable tribes of innumerable tribes

807
00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:53,460
Speaker 1: from all across the globe, Gentiles, Jews, everything put together,

808
00:48:53,980 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: every tongue, tribe, and nation in heaven, and they're singing.

809
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,549
Speaker 1: And what I would argue, because there are some who

810
00:49:00,570 --> 00:49:04,529
Speaker 1: want to say, well, these 144,000, like Hal Lindsey in

811
00:49:04,550 --> 00:49:08,930
Speaker 1: his book refers to them as 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams

812
00:49:09,969 --> 00:49:12,130
Speaker 1: who are going to go out after the rapture and

813
00:49:12,170 --> 00:49:14,870
Speaker 1: start spreading the gospel. And they're the ones who lead

814
00:49:14,950 --> 00:49:19,250
Speaker 1: all these people to Christ and seen to. And I'm

815
00:49:19,270 --> 00:49:21,549
Speaker 1: going to say, no, I don't think that's it. I

816
00:49:21,570 --> 00:49:25,609
Speaker 1: think that ignores the parallelism. And the parallelism is I heard,

817
00:49:25,969 --> 00:49:29,739
Speaker 1: then I saw. I heard a lion, military Messiah. I

818
00:49:29,820 --> 00:49:33,900
Speaker 1: saw a lamb, martyr Messiah. I heard an army of

819
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: numbered Jewish tribes. Numbered is symbolic throughout Revelation for protected.

820
00:49:40,989 --> 00:49:43,930
Speaker 1: These are sealed, numbered Jewish tribes. But then I turned

821
00:49:43,989 --> 00:49:50,700
Speaker 1: and saw innumerable throng of people from every tribe, tongue,

822
00:49:50,739 --> 00:49:53,500
Speaker 1: and nation. And I would say, just as the lion

823
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:59,609
Speaker 1: is the lamb, the 144,000 numbered Jewish tribes are the

824
00:49:59,890 --> 00:50:03,930
Speaker 1: innumerable tribes from around the globe. One and the same.

825
00:50:04,810 --> 00:50:06,589
Speaker 1: And they had died and gone to heaven. So like

826
00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:10,110
Speaker 1: the lamb, they're martyred. Revelation is a book of martyrs.

827
00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:13,890
Speaker 1: It's not exclusively for martyrs. I think it's including those who,

828
00:50:13,890 --> 00:50:17,489
Speaker 1: 1 Corinthians 15, die daily. It's for those who take

829
00:50:17,530 --> 00:50:20,009
Speaker 1: up their cross and follow Jesus. It's an instrument of death.

830
00:50:20,969 --> 00:50:23,910
Speaker 1: But it is ultimately also a book for martyrs. And

831
00:50:24,610 --> 00:50:29,510
Speaker 1: it's saying that where the Jewish people expected not just

832
00:50:30,700 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: a military Messiah, they expected to be part of that military.

833
00:50:34,540 --> 00:50:37,860
Speaker 1: And if you look through the Old Testament, when they

834
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,910
Speaker 1: would count tribes, it was often to go to war

835
00:50:41,219 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: because they wanted to know how many men do we

836
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 1: got in war? And these are actually men. In fact,

837
00:50:46,460 --> 00:50:50,820
Speaker 1: what's interesting is if you cross-reference with, uh, with revelation

838
00:50:50,820 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: 14 with 144,000 appear again, they're not just male. They're

839
00:50:55,780 --> 00:51:02,140
Speaker 1: not just Jewish. They're also virgins and they have, uh,

840
00:51:02,180 --> 00:51:05,069
Speaker 1: and they have a like mark on their forehead. And

841
00:51:05,140 --> 00:51:08,650
Speaker 1: so my, my question, like, are we really to imagine?

842
00:51:09,070 --> 00:51:11,149
Speaker 1: that the only people who are safe from the wrath

843
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:14,299
Speaker 1: of God Almighty and from the Lamb in Revelation 6,

844
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:20,140
Speaker 1: that the only people safe from that are 144,000 male

845
00:51:20,260 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: Jewish virgins? Where's the hope for the rest of us? No,

846
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,210
Speaker 1: I think it makes much better sense of the cross-reference

847
00:51:27,230 --> 00:51:31,509
Speaker 1: with Revelation 14. The virgin aspect is symbolic of how

848
00:51:31,650 --> 00:51:34,710
Speaker 1: in Jewish understanding of holy war, they would abstain from

849
00:51:34,770 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 1: sexual activity. And so it's like, this is a pure,

850
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,459
Speaker 1: holy army of God, but it fights differently. It fights

851
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,780
Speaker 1: like they're slain lamb commander, not by pouncing on bad guys.

852
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,339
Speaker 1: You get a lot of eschatologies these days where they're like, yeah,

853
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:51,900
Speaker 1: we're going to kill the bad guys and take over

854
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,060
Speaker 1: the government. It's like, I hear people saying that online,

855
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,819
Speaker 1: like a lot. No, Jesus sheds his blood for his

856
00:51:58,860 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: enemies and he's modeling for us how we win the world,

857
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,339
Speaker 1: how to engage in holy war, And it's not by

858
00:52:06,380 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: killing people. And it's not by brandishing the world's weapons

859
00:52:09,540 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: and taking over. It's actually by laying down our lives

860
00:52:13,260 --> 00:52:17,129
Speaker 1: in sacrificial love, just like Jesus. And so I think

861
00:52:17,230 --> 00:52:22,970
Speaker 1: what Revelation is doing is it's reframing end times expectations.

862
00:52:23,350 --> 00:52:26,650
Speaker 1: You wanted a military messiah, you got a martyr messiah.

863
00:52:27,170 --> 00:52:30,500
Speaker 1: You wanted to be part of his great end times army.

864
00:52:30,620 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: One of the war scrolls calls it the sons of

865
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,819
Speaker 1: light versus the sons of darkness. And here's a cool thing.

866
00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:37,819
Speaker 1: In one of the war scrolls found in the Dead Sea,

867
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:43,220
Speaker 1: it said that the Jewish armies of the last days,

868
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: the sons of light, would wash their robes of the

869
00:52:47,260 --> 00:52:51,819
Speaker 1: blood of the Gentiles that they killed. This was the

870
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,100
Speaker 1: Jewish expectation. You get to Revelation 7 and the image

871
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,650
Speaker 1: is very different. They're washing their robes in the blood

872
00:52:58,690 --> 00:53:01,430
Speaker 1: of the lamb who was slain because their sins are forgiven.

873
00:53:01,469 --> 00:53:04,220
Speaker 1: How much more beautiful is that? You see, what God

874
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,980
Speaker 1: is doing is he's showing how he overcomes the world's bloodlust.

875
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 1: As I say in my book, he buried it in

876
00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:13,740
Speaker 1: the grave he walked away from. He absorbed the world's tyranny.

877
00:53:14,020 --> 00:53:17,100
Speaker 1: He absorbed the world's evil. He absorbed the world's sin.

878
00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: He took all of it on his shoulders. And three

879
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,069
Speaker 1: days later, he rose again, the slaughtered lamb who stands.

880
00:53:23,620 --> 00:53:27,750
Speaker 1: And we join him because even if we go all

881
00:53:27,790 --> 00:53:31,569
Speaker 1: the way on to dying for Jesus, we still come

882
00:53:31,610 --> 00:53:34,830
Speaker 1: back to life with him. And we conquer death like, uh,

883
00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:36,529
Speaker 1: like he does. So we have nothing to fear. So

884
00:53:36,550 --> 00:53:37,610
Speaker 1: I think that's the real message.

885
00:53:38,410 --> 00:53:41,240
Speaker 4: And what is, uh, what role does ethnic Israel play

886
00:53:41,420 --> 00:53:41,959
Speaker 4: in the end times?

887
00:53:44,219 --> 00:53:47,980
Speaker 1: Ethnic Israel. So, you know, I would say my belief

888
00:53:48,820 --> 00:53:52,620
Speaker 1: is I do believe because especially of Romans chapter 11.

889
00:53:52,620 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: So I'll pull in a cross reference here. It does

890
00:53:55,900 --> 00:53:59,730
Speaker 1: seem to indicate that within a hair's breadth of Christ's return,

891
00:54:00,130 --> 00:54:03,310
Speaker 1: it says, quote, all Israel will be saved. And in

892
00:54:03,330 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: the context of Romans 9 through 11, the majority of

893
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: the times where he'll talk about Israel, he's speaking of

894
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: ethnic Israel. And so I do believe there is a

895
00:54:13,620 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: future for ethnic Israel. Now, as Gentiles, and I'm a Gentile,

896
00:54:19,980 --> 00:54:23,100
Speaker 1: I believe I was, to use Romans 11 imagery, I

897
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,700
Speaker 1: was grafted in to the olive tree. And therefore, as

898
00:54:28,100 --> 00:54:31,529
Speaker 1: a Gentile, I'm a co-heir of the promises of Jesus

899
00:54:31,550 --> 00:54:34,550
Speaker 1: and and the promises that were made to Abraham, Isaac,

900
00:54:34,590 --> 00:54:37,770
Speaker 1: and Jacob. I'm not a second-class citizen. I think that

901
00:54:37,930 --> 00:54:44,220
Speaker 1: some end-times theologies, in my opinion, Beckett, I think that people,

902
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:50,500
Speaker 1: they either obsess over the Jews, almost worship them. They

903
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,220
Speaker 1: wouldn't really worship them, but it's like this wild obsession

904
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,910
Speaker 1: with Jewishness, or they think Jewishness is completely irrelevant, or

905
00:55:00,070 --> 00:55:04,290
Speaker 1: even worse, all Jews or are malevolent and they accuse

906
00:55:04,310 --> 00:55:07,129
Speaker 1: the world uh all the world's problems is coming to

907
00:55:07,150 --> 00:55:10,569
Speaker 1: the jews and i've been really concerned about that and

908
00:55:10,989 --> 00:55:12,969
Speaker 1: and i would say you know like my co-host on

909
00:55:12,989 --> 00:55:16,690
Speaker 1: the radio michael miller he is jewish he's like you

910
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:18,870
Speaker 1: would be amazed at how many christians will come up

911
00:55:18,910 --> 00:55:21,529
Speaker 1: to me and it's almost like they expect me to

912
00:55:21,590 --> 00:55:24,390
Speaker 1: glow because i'm jewish i'm like i'm just a little

913
00:55:24,410 --> 00:55:29,110
Speaker 1: dude like you so Uh, so I would say, I,

914
00:55:29,100 --> 00:55:32,270
Speaker 1: I don't think we should obsess over Jewishness. I don't

915
00:55:32,290 --> 00:55:35,090
Speaker 1: think the end times is Jew centric. I think it

916
00:55:35,150 --> 00:55:38,210
Speaker 1: is Christ centric and Christ is a Jew. And I

917
00:55:38,310 --> 00:55:41,450
Speaker 1: do believe there will be a massive, I call it

918
00:55:41,489 --> 00:55:43,339
Speaker 1: a Jewish great awakening at the end of the age

919
00:55:43,420 --> 00:55:45,900
Speaker 1: because of Romans 11. I think there are some indications

920
00:55:45,940 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: in revelation 11 as well, uh, of, uh, Jewish salvation, but, uh,

921
00:55:51,860 --> 00:55:54,180
Speaker 1: at the end of the age. but I do believe

922
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,540
Speaker 1: there's a future for ethnic Israel. I do believe the

923
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,620
Speaker 1: majority of them will be saved before Christ returns. And

924
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,930
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the signs that Christ is

925
00:56:02,030 --> 00:56:02,810
Speaker 1: soon to return.

926
00:56:04,190 --> 00:56:04,930
Speaker 3: I like that. Okay.

927
00:56:08,969 --> 00:56:09,169
Speaker 1: Okay.

928
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:11,589
Speaker 3: We're going to move kind of quickly through these questions now.

929
00:56:11,910 --> 00:56:15,590
Speaker 1: So who are the long winded? I know. I hear

930
00:56:15,610 --> 00:56:16,709
Speaker 1: what you're saying back here.

931
00:56:16,750 --> 00:56:19,339
Speaker 3: Very good. You're very good at explaining this now.

932
00:56:19,860 --> 00:56:24,250
Speaker 4: Um, I, uh, what, who are the two? I'm going

933
00:56:24,270 --> 00:56:26,450
Speaker 4: to skip to revelation 11. What, who are the two

934
00:56:26,489 --> 00:56:27,739
Speaker 4: witnesses in revelation 11?

935
00:56:27,739 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

936
00:56:30,460 --> 00:56:33,660
Speaker 1: So the two witnesses, there are those who believe they

937
00:56:33,700 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: are two literal individuals who are coming in the future

938
00:56:37,540 --> 00:56:40,569
Speaker 1: in the last seven years of history, and they will

939
00:56:40,670 --> 00:56:44,350
Speaker 1: call down plagues on all their enemies and kill a

940
00:56:44,370 --> 00:56:48,610
Speaker 1: bunch of people. And then, and this is actually the

941
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:52,109
Speaker 1: vision John sees. He sees two witnesses. And they do

942
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:55,830
Speaker 1: call down, the vision has them calling down plagues and

943
00:56:56,110 --> 00:57:00,089
Speaker 1: killing a bunch of unbelievers. And then at the end

944
00:57:00,270 --> 00:57:04,020
Speaker 1: of that, they themselves are killed and the world celebrates

945
00:57:04,060 --> 00:57:07,940
Speaker 1: and passes each other gifts and so on. And then

946
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,180
Speaker 1: I want to say after three and a half days,

947
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: which three and a half is an interesting number in Revelation.

948
00:57:13,980 --> 00:57:16,940
Speaker 1: It seems to represent the time of evil. After three

949
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,970
Speaker 1: and a half days, the witnesses will rise again and

950
00:57:21,010 --> 00:57:24,590
Speaker 1: ascend into heaven. So that's how, that's how it plays out.

951
00:57:24,650 --> 00:57:27,310
Speaker 1: And then there's a giant earthquake and a whole, and

952
00:57:27,350 --> 00:57:30,070
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people, it says gave glory to God.

953
00:57:30,350 --> 00:57:33,650
Speaker 1: That is they're saved. And since it takes place in

954
00:57:33,850 --> 00:57:36,250
Speaker 1: at least symbolic Jerusalem, I would, I would say this

955
00:57:36,450 --> 00:57:40,390
Speaker 1: could be a pointer toward Israel being massively saved in

956
00:57:40,410 --> 00:57:44,660
Speaker 1: the end. But that said, the question with any vision

957
00:57:44,860 --> 00:57:50,570
Speaker 1: Beckett is what does it mean? And we can't automatically

958
00:57:50,610 --> 00:57:54,710
Speaker 1: assume it means this will play out literally exactly as

959
00:57:54,790 --> 00:57:58,170
Speaker 1: we read it. Most visions are symbolic. I mean, Numbers

960
00:57:58,210 --> 00:58:03,060
Speaker 1: chapter 12, like the Lord says, if there's a prophet,

961
00:58:03,100 --> 00:58:05,300
Speaker 1: I speak to him in a dream or in a

962
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,060
Speaker 1: vision in riddles and dark sayings, but not to you, Moses,

963
00:58:10,100 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: I speak to you face to face. So like, you know, Moses,

964
00:58:12,850 --> 00:58:15,530
Speaker 1: had a special level of prophetic revelation. Like he's hearing

965
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:18,530
Speaker 1: direct from the mouth of God. It says he's, you know,

966
00:58:18,550 --> 00:58:22,310
Speaker 1: God spoke to a mouth to mouth, but most prophets

967
00:58:22,370 --> 00:58:27,130
Speaker 1: it's symbolic. And so an apocalyptic literature in general to

968
00:58:27,150 --> 00:58:29,810
Speaker 1: which revelation is a, it's a genre that revelation belongs.

969
00:58:29,970 --> 00:58:33,540
Speaker 1: Everyone under everyone understood this is symbolic. Everyone understood it.

970
00:58:34,350 --> 00:58:36,190
Speaker 1: We don't understand that today because the genre is out

971
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:38,530
Speaker 1: of print, except for the fact that it exists in revelation.

972
00:58:38,590 --> 00:58:41,770
Speaker 1: We just don't know. You know, your average person doesn't,

973
00:58:41,790 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: but scholars do. And revelation should be understood symbolically for

974
00:58:46,340 --> 00:58:49,780
Speaker 1: the most part. And so I would take this to

975
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,700
Speaker 1: be symbolism. And a few of my indications there, besides

976
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,620
Speaker 1: the genre of it, would be they aren't just called

977
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:02,540
Speaker 1: two witnesses. They're also called two olive trees, which is

978
00:59:02,540 --> 00:59:06,590
Speaker 1: a shout out to Zechariah. And then uh, they're also

979
00:59:06,650 --> 00:59:11,140
Speaker 1: called to lampstands, which is a shout out to revelation one, two,

980
00:59:11,180 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: and three, where the seven churches are called lampstands. And

981
00:59:15,020 --> 00:59:17,700
Speaker 1: I can't remember how many times call it 30 times.

982
00:59:18,180 --> 00:59:20,780
Speaker 1: The word lampstand is used in revelation, call it 20 times,

983
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: be conservative that the word lampstand is used in the

984
00:59:24,700 --> 00:59:29,060
Speaker 1: book of revelation. Then, uh, every other time it refers

985
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,870
Speaker 1: to church. So why, in this singular instance, would we

986
00:59:32,910 --> 00:59:37,900
Speaker 1: understand these two witnesses to these two lampstands? Why would

987
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: we say, well, Revelation 11 is special. It doesn't mean

988
00:59:40,340 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: the church. It means just two individuals. I don't think so.

989
00:59:43,900 --> 00:59:46,580
Speaker 1: That'd be another reason to consider it symbolic. So we've

990
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: got the genre of literature. We've got that these two

991
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:55,250
Speaker 1: witnesses are also called two lampstands, which elsewhere represents the church.

992
00:59:55,690 --> 00:59:58,610
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I believe the two The two

993
00:59:58,650 --> 01:00:01,570
Speaker 1: witnesses represent the church of Jesus Christ throughout this age.

994
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,380
Speaker 1: And I can explain some more of that later if

995
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: you want. Also, the one who kills them is actually

996
01:00:10,580 --> 01:00:13,010
Speaker 1: a beast that rises from the abyss, and it says

997
01:00:13,070 --> 01:00:15,790
Speaker 1: it makes war on the two witnesses. That's an allusion

998
01:00:15,830 --> 01:00:16,990
Speaker 1: to Daniel 7, I believe, 21 and 25, where a

999
01:00:16,990 --> 01:00:24,860
Speaker 1: beast makes war on the saints. So it seems as

1000
01:00:24,940 --> 01:00:28,820
Speaker 1: though that's actually just playing out right there in Revelation 11, 7.

1001
01:00:28,820 --> 01:00:32,060
Speaker 1: A beast makes war on the two witnesses, a.k.a. the saints, a.k.a.

1002
01:00:32,420 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: the church. Besides, it'd be really weird linguistically to say

1003
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,940
Speaker 1: you make war on two people. You make war on nations.

1004
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,580
Speaker 1: You make war on big groups, not just two people.

1005
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,220
Speaker 1: Those are a few reasons, and there are more, why

1006
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: I believe it's the church. And so as the church,

1007
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,380
Speaker 1: I believe these verses speak to our witness in this

1008
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,460
Speaker 1: age that we are to be that light that shines.

1009
01:00:56,260 --> 01:01:00,620
Speaker 1: And just as the olive trees would produce oil that

1010
01:01:00,660 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: keeps the light shining, that God will continue our supply

1011
01:01:05,820 --> 01:01:08,620
Speaker 1: of his spirit so that we can keep shining, so

1012
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:13,550
Speaker 1: that we can bear faithful witness, bold prophetic proclamation to

1013
01:01:13,570 --> 01:01:16,530
Speaker 1: the gospel of Jesus throughout this age, and that the

1014
01:01:16,570 --> 01:01:20,610
Speaker 1: world will reject us and hate us I don't take

1015
01:01:20,670 --> 01:01:23,870
Speaker 1: the calling down of plagues literally. And part of the

1016
01:01:23,910 --> 01:01:26,350
Speaker 1: reason for that is that in Luke chapter nine, when

1017
01:01:26,490 --> 01:01:29,430
Speaker 1: Jesus's disciples say, Hey, do you want us to call

1018
01:01:29,450 --> 01:01:32,530
Speaker 1: down fire from heaven and kill our enemies? Just like

1019
01:01:32,610 --> 01:01:35,780
Speaker 1: Elijah did. Jesus says, no, you don't know what spirit

1020
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: you're of. It seems to me that in the new

1021
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,220
Speaker 1: covenant era, it's no longer acceptable to treat your enemies

1022
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,100
Speaker 1: in some of the ways they did in the old Testament.

1023
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:48,620
Speaker 1: I don't think it complies with the rest of revelation

1024
01:01:48,820 --> 01:01:51,610
Speaker 1: either because where martyrdom and laying down your life for

1025
01:01:51,630 --> 01:01:54,570
Speaker 1: your enemies is the standard. And that's actually what the

1026
01:01:54,610 --> 01:01:56,980
Speaker 1: witnesses do here. They lay their lives down for their

1027
01:01:57,020 --> 01:02:00,860
Speaker 1: enemies before they're risen, risen up from the grave and

1028
01:02:00,900 --> 01:02:03,419
Speaker 1: people are saved. So I don't think the shoe fits there.

1029
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: If we want to say like, yeah, they're going to

1030
01:02:05,340 --> 01:02:07,950
Speaker 1: literally call down plagues. I think it speaks of God's

1031
01:02:08,030 --> 01:02:11,950
Speaker 1: judgment coming as a result of our words. Jeremiah, it says,

1032
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:15,610
Speaker 1: you know, it talks about his words being fire. And

1033
01:02:15,630 --> 01:02:18,940
Speaker 1: so I think it's speaking to like, to their bold

1034
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,410
Speaker 1: preaching and judgments that come as a result of that,

1035
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:23,890
Speaker 1: of that bold preaching.

1036
01:02:25,050 --> 01:02:26,750
Speaker 3: So Michael, why don't we stop there?

1037
01:02:27,130 --> 01:02:30,310
Speaker 4: And cause I have at least another hour of questions

1038
01:02:30,330 --> 01:02:32,390
Speaker 4: to ask you and we'll just make this part one

1039
01:02:32,510 --> 01:02:35,450
Speaker 4: and then we'll continue part two later, but let's leave

1040
01:02:35,490 --> 01:02:38,490
Speaker 4: it there for now. And guys, again, the book is

1041
01:02:38,530 --> 01:02:42,770
Speaker 4: called a world, the world made right finding confident hope

1042
01:02:42,810 --> 01:02:43,850
Speaker 4: in the book of revelation.

1043
01:02:43,970 --> 01:02:46,229
Speaker 3: It's also in audio, right? Michael.

1044
01:02:47,830 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did the voice for it. It was kind

1045
01:02:50,260 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: of fun, actually. It's got audio. It's got Kindle, whatever

1046
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: format you want. You can buy it anywhere books are sold,

1047
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,040
Speaker 1: published through Zondervan, which is HarperCollins.

1048
01:03:00,060 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 2: Yes.

1049
01:03:00,580 --> 01:03:02,020
Speaker 4: So we're going to leave it there for now. This

1050
01:03:02,140 --> 01:03:06,250
Speaker 4: is part one. And we'll also see you guys back

1051
01:03:06,310 --> 01:03:06,930
Speaker 4: at part two.

1052
01:03:07,330 --> 01:03:07,890
Speaker 3: Thank you, Michael.

1053
01:03:08,050 --> 01:03:11,530
Speaker 4: Wait, don't touch that dial. Please like and subscribe. And also,

1054
01:03:11,610 --> 01:03:15,820
Speaker 4: please consider becoming a patron on Patreon. For as little

1055
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:17,460
Speaker 4: as $ 5 a month, you can really help us out

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Speaker 4: on the show. The link is below, and we so,

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Speaker 4: so appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett

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Speaker 2: Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes

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Speaker 2: of The Beckett Cook Show are also available on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his

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Speaker 2: website at beckettcook.com.